NationStates Jolt Archive

this isn't about the brilliant comdey site oldenglish.org (http://www.oldeenglish.org/) but about my annoyance with the way people used to write - a lot of it is complete bollocks. much of it is beautifully written and sounds most excellent, of course, but political essays from the 1800s are just wank. check this one out:

any general character, from the best to the worst, from the most ignorant to the most enlightened, may be given to any community, even to the world at large, by the application of proper means, which means are to a great extent at the command and under the control of those who have influence in the affairs of men ((Robert) Owen 1927: I, 16)

i mean, WTF does that say?? a summary: "a person can be 'given' (whatever that means) to the world by the application of something (its a bit vague) which is/are in the control of people with power." no shit... well done for stating the obvious, Owen :rolleyes:
i think it referrs to the bringing up of a child, and being able to form its character ("from the best to the worst...") but my god they didn't half talk a lot of crap back then :p

anybody else got any examples of shitty old english like this one? i have tons but dont know where to find em anymore :(

I thought this was going to be about a 40 ounce of crappy malt liquor.

anybody else got any examples of shitty old english like this one? i have tons but dont know where to find em anymore :(

ye olde english

Shouldn't that be 'Þe olde english'? - what you wrote means 'You old english', which makes little sense... the very thing you are criticising others for.

I thought this was going to be about a 40 ounce of crappy malt liquor.
Olde English is the only malt liquor worth drinking. It's still not a great beer, but it is the best malt liquor around.

Shouldn't that be 'Þe olde english'? - what you wrote means 'You old english', which makes little sense... the very thing you are criticising others for.
:headbang:

I thought this would be about Old English...by which I mean proper old English, of the Anglo-Saxon variety. I actually know something about that!

Olde English is the only malt liquor worth drinking. It's still not a great beer, but it is the best malt liquor around.


Alllll Malt liquor sucks to me. I tried drinking this stuff called Magnum one time. I dont even know if they still make it. It was a red and gold can and it was a bigger can. It tasted like what I think liquified ear wax would taste like. But I got so damn drunk I didnt care. That was when I was 16. blech...I swore off Malt liquor. But yeah OE tastes better than Magnum.....*shudders*

I thought this would be about Old English...by which I mean proper old English, of the Anglo-Saxon variety. I actually know something about that!
Hell... just talk about it.

The original text, although hard to read due to its polyclausal structure, gets easier to read if you separate the clauses in parenthesis:

any general character, (from the best to the worst, from the most ignorant to the most enlightened,) may be given to any community, (even to the world at large,) by the application of proper means, which means are (to a great extent) at the command (and under the control) of those who have influence in the affairs of men

Make a bit more sense now?

A couple of corrections:
*'Character' in this sense means nature or manner, not person.
*'Ye' means 'the', and was always pronounced "the" , the letter Y used to be interchangable with the letters 'th', as an orthographical convention. The 'thorn' character Þ (in this sense meaning symbol, Pure Metal) was the original symbol denoting the voiced 'th' sound.

My work here is done! ;)

i mean, WTF does that say?? a summary: "a person can be 'given' (whatever that means) to the world by the application of something (its a bit vague) which is/are in the control of people with power." no shit... well done for stating the obvious, Owen :rolleyes:
i think it referrs to the bringing up of a child, and being able to form its character ("from the best to the worst...") but my god they didn't half talk a lot of crap back then :p

Not really: if anything it is probably best read as a statement in the belief of nurture over nature. What it is saying is: "the general character of an adult is formed by the educational influences which act upon them, and such influences are almost entirely controlled not by nature but by man".

Hell... just talk about it.
yeah, tbh, i don't really mind :cool:

yes...whaqt he is referring to is not old english....for a layman to read old english, he needs a very good translation book.

Not really: if anything it is probably best read as a statement in the belief of nurture over nature. What it is saying is: "the general character of an adult is formed by the educational influences which act upon them, and such influences are almost entirely controlled not by nature but by man".
yeah you're right (pretty much what i was thinking anyhow:))

yeah you're right (pretty much what i was thinking anyhow:))

So what is your complaint then? - that language changes over time?

So what is your complaint then? - that language changes over time?
it's unnecessarily complex thats all (i'm trying to write an essay based on this stuff in half a day - i want nice simple language :D )

edit: don't really have a complaint as such, to be honest...

Hell... just talk about it.
Meh, if you really want me too.
OE is the basis for one hell of a lot of place names in England, especially the south, west and southwest. They pretty much all describe features of the landscape - Breedon on the Hill - 'brey' is Anglo-Saxon for 'hill', 'don' is taken from 'dun' or 'tun', both OE for 'hill', and Hill is the modern english for..erm..hill. So the place is called 'Hill-Hill on the Hill :p Alternatively, they refer toownership of the land - Grimston: 'ton' means 'farm' or similar, Grim being the name of a person. Therefore, Grimston = Grim's farm. As so many American place names are taken from English place names it makes them very interesting. Want to guess what Washington takes it's name from? Wash - an area in England. 'Ing' - is a link word, usually defining ownership, or place, and 'ton'...farm again. So, Washington = 'farm in the Wash'. Genius. I could go on, but I doubt anyone has read this far.

it's unnecessarily complex thats all (i'm trying to write an essay based on this stuff in half a day - i want nice simple language :D )

edit: don't really have a complaint as such, to be honest...

I would probably argue that it isn't inherently more or less complex* just different - if you immerse yourself in it it becomes transparent (excepting those confusing constructions which exist in any language of any age).




* if anything, as contemporary english contains all older words and grammatical forms as archaicisms, contemporary english is probably more complex.

this isn't about the brilliant comdey site oldenglish.org (http://www.oldeenglish.org/) but about my annoyance with the way people used to write - a lot of it is complete bollocks. much of it is beautifully written and sounds most excellent, of course, but political essays from the 1800s are just wank. check this one out:



i mean, WTF does that say?? a summary: "a person can be 'given' (whatever that means) to the world by the application of something (its a bit vague) which is/are in the control of people with power." no shit... well done for stating the obvious, Owen :rolleyes:
i think it referrs to the bringing up of a child, and being able to form its character ("from the best to the worst...") but my god they didn't half talk a lot of crap back then :p

anybody else got any examples of shitty old english like this one? i have tons but dont know where to find em anymore :(


That's not old english.

Genius. I could go on, but I doubt anyone has read this far.

You would be entertained by some of the derivations of places in Ireland which were settled by the English/Scots - many original Irish place names were replaced by English ones and over time these became so corrupted that they were latter believed to actually be corrupted Irish forms... thus historians have in error attempted to translate corrupted English names from Irish into English...

You would be entertained by some of the derivations of places in Ireland which were settled by the English/Scots - many original Irish place names were replaced by English ones and over time these became so corrupted that they were latter believed to actually be corrupted Irish forms... thus historians have in error attempted to translate corrupted English names from Irish into English...
Heh. Nice. I remember hearing that Phoenix Park in Dublin(? - never been :( so I'm not sure) was 'translated' from the Gaelic purely on the basis that it sounded like phoenix. Not sure what the original Gaelic was, or what it meant...I could find out but I'm lazy...but it was related to the landscape.

And thanks for reading the entire post :)

Quit this room, or I'll trample you to atoms.

this isn't about the brilliant comdey site oldenglish.org (http://www.oldeenglish.org/) but about my annoyance with the way people used to write - a lot of it is complete bollocks. much of it is beautifully written and sounds most excellent, of course, but political essays from the 1800s are just wank. check this one out:



i mean, WTF does that say?? a summary: "a person can be 'given' (whatever that means) to the world by the application of something (its a bit vague) which is/are in the control of people with power." no shit... well done for stating the obvious, Owen :rolleyes:
i think it referrs to the bringing up of a child, and being able to form its character ("from the best to the worst...") but my god they didn't half talk a lot of crap back then :p

anybody else got any examples of shitty old english like this one? i have tons but dont know where to find em anymore :(

[Sarcasm mode] What a masterful crtiique of the English lagnuage [end sarcasm mode]

(approximately 900 AD)
On anginne gesceop God Heofenan and Eorthan. Seo Eorthe sothlice waes ydel and aemtig and theostru waeron ofer thaere niwelnisse bradnissee and godes gast waes geferod ofer waeteru. God cwaeth tha, geweorthe leoht: and leloth wearth geworht.


(about 1390, an excerpt from a tale by Chaucer)
A povre Wydwe, somdeel stape in age
Was whilom dwellyng in a narwe cotage,
Biside a grove, stondyng in a dale.
Thjis wydwe, of which I telle yow my tale,
Syn thilke day that she was last a wyf,
In pacience ladde a ful symple lyf…

(excerpt from Romeo and Juliet, about 1590)
But soft! What light through yonder window breaks?
It is the east, and Juliet is the sun.
Arise, fair sun, and kill the envious moon,
Who is already sick and pale with grief
That thou, her maid, art far more fair than she.

:)

i mean, WTF does that say?? a summary: "a person can be 'given' (whatever that means) to the world by the application of something (its a bit vague) which is/are in the control of people with power." no shit... well done for stating the obvious, Owen :rolleyes:
i think it referrs to the bringing up of a child, and being able to form its character ("from the best to the worst...") but my god they didn't half talk a lot of crap back then
No, you missed the point of the text completely. It never talks about a single person. It refers to those being into the "affairs of men" possessing the means to shape the character (form/spirit/morality/whatnot) of a community. There isnt talk about a single person or child education at all.

it's unnecessarily complex thats all (i'm trying to write an essay based on this stuff in half a day - i want nice simple language :D )

edit: don't really have a complaint as such, to be honest...

For the Portuguese speakers, try reading Saramargo. Five page sentences that make even Locke look concise. And he is writing now.

Heh. Nice. I remember hearing that Phoenix Park in Dublin(? - never been :( so I'm not sure) was 'translated' from the Gaelic purely on the basis that it sounded like phoenix. Not sure what the original Gaelic was, or what it meant...I could find out but I'm lazy...but it was related to the landscape.

And thanks for reading the entire post :)
Ye Pheonix Park is "Páirc an Fionn Uisce" translated literally as The park of the yellow water.

Its pronounced "Pawrk-on-Feeun-Ishke"

Nearly every placename you can think of in Ireland is an anglisized version from the original Irish word.

Youll get the most ridiculous names that make no sence whatsoever in English.

damn, this thread got a real good bump... shame - i got intelectually bitchslapped in this one originally and don't really want to repeat the experience :headbang:

No, you missed the point of the text completely. It never talks about a single person. It refers to those being into the "affairs of men" possessing the means to shape the character (form/spirit/morality/whatnot) of a community. There isnt talk about a single person or child education at all.
yes isnt it about responsibility of leaders in shaping the character of the comminites they influence, for good or for bad?