NationStates Jolt Archive

Fine, go ahead. You are free to do so, and I won't stop you. Honestly, I don't care to try. America is flawed. We are attacking other nations. Our leaders are hypocritical very often. We are full of officials who's intelegence is ofter rivaled by toasters. Out own most popular entertainment sources assault our own officials and values.

But just remember, at least we are trying, and even if we are not always successful, at least we often realize that we are flawed and attempt to get it right eventualy. What else can we do?

There really is nothing we can do. Don't see the point in caring what the world thought about the United States, it's not like they can do anything about it anyway.

Right on! One of the best things about America is that we're free to feel however we want about it, and to express that feeling in any way we want, as long as it doesn't break any laws.

The formula for a 30 page thread that won't die.

People are going to hate America no matter what it does. All Americans could selflessly give their hard-earned money, food, and what-not to poor, starving Third World children and they would hate us for it. There will always be a vocal number of people who believe that all Americans should be shot. There will always be those who laugh at the U.S. whenever it is inflicted with a 9/11-style tragedy, claiming it was "deserved." That argument is flawed on so many levels it's insane.

As far as I am concerned, those people can take a bath in kerosene and dry off with a blowtorch. In fact, if they choose to do so, I will pay $100 for the Pay-Per-View rights to watch it.

The formula for a 30 page thread that won't die.
*Whistles, and fluffle's America

The formula for a 30 page thread that won't die.

Yep, cause there is always another person with something to say, and wether it is for or against america, I want them to sya it here. In fact, I want to hear people who hate America. Not for any negative reasons, just the simple fact that I am interested in your views. I mean it, I want to find out your views and why you have them.

intelegence

Intentional irony?

My brain can only wonder. :D

Also, please refrain from quotes without multiple words...

People are going to hate America no matter what it does. All Americans could selflessly give their hard-earned money, food, and what-not to poor, starving Third World children and they would hate us for it. There will always be a vocal number of people who believe that all Americans should be shot. There will always be those who laugh at the U.S. whenever it is inflicted with a 9/11-style tragedy, claiming it was "deserved." That argument is flawed on so many levels it's insane.

As far as I am concerned, those people can take a bath in kerosene and dry off with a blowtorch. In fact, if they choose to do so, I will pay $100 for the Pay-Per-View rights to watch it.

No, why would they? People hate the US for what it does, not for what it is. Havent you noticed people who hate US policy still see nothing wrong with visiting the US? The US is a great place to visit, but we just hate its policies. Oh, btw Ive never met anyone who hates America. Most people have nothing against Argentina, Nicaragua, Peru, Mexico, Canada, Chile, Brasil, the lesser Antilles, and the rest of America. The US is the only real troublemaker in the region (and arguably Cuba....arguably).

Yep, cause there is always another person with something to say, and wether it is for or against america, I want them to sya it here. In fact, I want to hear people who hate America. Not for any negative reasons, just the simple fact that I am interested in your views. I mean it, I want to find out your views and why you have them.

I am American and love America. I am also pretty sure that most detractors do not hate America, rather certain aspects of its foreign policy.

The problem with your thread, however, is that these threads never stay thoughtful and or civil, and you are likely to get 2-3 pages of worthwhile response at the most.

Yep, cause there is always another person with something to say, and wether it is for or against america, I want them to sya it here. In fact, I want to hear people who hate America. Not for any negative reasons, just the simple fact that I am interested in your views. I mean it, I want to find out your views and why you have them.


I'll try to honestly answer once more, but it always seems to end in flames and whittier wanting to invade france. The fact that americans are suprised that there is no long lineup to be 'just like america' is a constant source of amusement to the R.O.T.W. (rest of the world). Don't try to impose your conceptions of freedom and liberty on the ROTW and people will like you more. Yes america is the last superpower standing, but that does not mean carte blanche in world affairs. Leaders lead by gaining consensus, not bullying. americans are not dumb people, regardless of what the bashers may say, but they are scarily uninformed about the global community. Learn political emapthy and understand why trampling on small countries is not going to win the hearts and minds of the ROTW. These are just a few things off the top of my head, I won't stay for the flame wars to follow but do try to consider other nations histories, experiances, and identites-thats why america is hated (feared) in the world. I hope you get some honest answers, not just jingoism from both sides.

People can hate, dislike, despise, scorn whatever they want. Their free to have their own opinions.

As long as they don't start hijacking planes and crashing it into buildings.

I am American and love America. I am also pretty sure that most detractors do not hate America, rather certain aspects of its foreign policy.

The problem with your thread, however, is that these threads never stay thoughtful and or civil, and you are likely to get 2-3 pages of worthwhile response at the most.

1) I like my home as well
2) Yes, and few people realize how little influence the general public has on law here compared to what people believe. In truth, the general public elections don't even factor into the election of the president. Ironic, huh?
3) I am hoping to avoid that.

3) I am hoping to avoid that.

I wish you luck.

As long as they don't start hijacking planes and crashing it into buildings.

Is the act of dropping explosive munitions from planes onto buildings acceptable?

I wish to avoid anything like that in this forum, so chill.
I am trying to make a discussion of America without it deteriorating.

I don't see a reason to hate America. You may dislike certain aspects of the American culture (too religious, conservative, self-centered, consumerist, ...) or the policies of their current government (too agressive, too rightist, too neocon/neolib, imperialistic, ...)
But it's foolish for some one to suddenly hate America since George W. Bush got in office, when they loved it with Clinton as president.

Personally, I love the United States of America and I like their current policies far better than the ones implemented by my government (Flemish, Belgian and European Counsil). But even though I dislike socialism, I will never hate any European country for it. Even though I dislike the current European foreign policies, I'll never hate a country for it... that's just blatant generalizing.

Nevertheless, I'm moving to the US in a few years (somewhere between TX and NC/SC) because I like their way of dealing with things better, but I'll never hate Europe for doing it differently. Condemn maybe, hate no.

I just hate nationalism, from any country. I don't hate you.

And I don't hate you. I don't hate nationalist, but being against those who believe being from a certain nation makes them better. That, I can understand.

I've got to say, that I've never really encountered anybody I could truly classify as anti-american. People may dislike or disagree with some of the foreign policies of the U.S.A., but most don't actually hate the existence of America. Truth be told, most people love America and the people who live there!

I've never met a Yank I didn't like. (I've disliked a few I HAVEN'T met, but that's another story)

If you're looking for anti-u.s. people, you'd have to encounter some form of extremist.

I've never met a Yank I didn't like. (I've disliked a few I HAVEN'T met, but that's another story)


I find that hard to believe, I have met a lot that I don't like. I have met quite a few that I cannot stand.

Yes, but only the good ones come to Australia :D .

Yes, but only the good ones come to Australia :D .

That's because all good Americans love Paul Hogan.

There really is nothing we can do.
You just keep telling yourself that, maybe one day your conscience will believe you.
Don't see the point in caring what the world thought about the United States, it's not like they can do anything about it anyway.
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*pause*
*breathe*
ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh man, care to add "Nyernyer-nyer-nyernyer" to that?
A whole thread for "we love ourselves and don't care about the rest of the world cos they're all weak cos they're not america"
I would wager you cry every time you hear the national anthem too

But just remember, at least we are trying, and even if we are not always successful, at least we often realize that we are flawed and attempt to get it right eventualy. What else can we do?

Convince the world that this is the case ?
Because so far most seem to think that the US (and not even just the government) never apologizes, never admits it is wrong and will ridicule anyone who even dares to contradict it. This may be an inaccurate sentiment, but it is the one I encounter. So work on your PR.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*pause*
*breathe*
ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh man, care to add "Nyernyer-nyer-nyernyer" to that?
A whole thread for "we love ourselves and don't care about the rest of the world cos they're all weak cos they're not america"
I would wager you cry every time you hear the national anthem too

Please feel free to leave if you can't read the whole thread and make a genuine effort to understand what it is for. This is for people to understand other points of views, and you shouldn't post in here until you know what it is for. When you have something mature, relevant, and on that topic to add, feel free to return.

The years I spent in the US were undoubtedly the best of my life. I loved the country, and I particularly loved the people- warm, open, and kindhearted. I met very few cynical people there (Europe is brimming with cynics).

However, that also means that there are very few people that will question the motives of the federal government. America IS fighting a war against terrorism- it has been forced to do so. However, terrorism is merely a side effect of the policies the US government adopted well over a century ago. Though Bush might be a glorified ape, his cabinet isn't. They know that controlling world resources is the key to sustained hegemony. They knew it when they took the Panama isthmus, and they knew it when they took over Iraq. With China (followed by India) set to become the world's next superpower, the energy demand from these countries is rising exponentially. The truth is, there aren't enough resources to support the growth of three such countries at the same time. And the government knows it. In case that doesn't work, and considering that we're going to run out of oil within the next two centuries anyway, the Bush administration has committed a few billion dollars to hydrogen energy research (instead of adopting the Kyoto protocol, which is a silly idea anyway).

The bottom line is the US is not engaged in a crusade against terrorism; it is merely trying to secure resources to sustain the country. The morality of that decision is a different matter: the alternatives are a) taking other people's resources or b) dwindling away until the former superpower becomes a third-rate country... conscience vs. pockets!

And all this is taking place unbeknownst to the vast majority of Americans, which are simply wonderful people who should become aware of the situation, and make their own decision.

That's because all good Americans love Paul Hogan.

That's filthy lie! You take that back!

I would wager you cry every time you hear the national anthem too

I cry everytime I hear my national anthem, but that's because it's God-awful.

"With golden soil and wealth for toil, our home is girt by sea"

GIRT?!

Convince the world that this is the case ?
Because so far most seem to think that the US (and not even just the government) never apologizes, never admits it is wrong and will ridicule anyone who even dares to contradict it. This may be an inaccurate sentiment, but it is the one I encounter. So work on your PR.

I have admited we are wrong, and I will in the future. And the government is full of idiots, as I said earlier. I won't deny it.

The years I spent in the US were undoubtedly the best of my life. I loved the country, and I particularly loved the people- warm, open, and kindhearted. I met very few cynical people there (Europe is brimming with cynics).

However, that also means that there are very few people that will question the motives of the federal government. America IS fighting a war against terrorism- it has been forced to do so. However, terrorism is merely a side effect of the policies the US government adopted well over a century ago. Though Bush might be a glorified ape, his cabinet isn't. They know that controlling world resources is the key to sustained hegemony. They knew it when they took the Panama isthmus, and they knew it when they took over Iraq. With China (followed by India) set to become the world's next superpower, the energy demand from these countries is rising exponentially. The truth is, there aren't enough resources to support the growth of three such countries at the same time. And the government knows it. In case that doesn't work, and considering that we're going to run out of oil within the next two centuries anyway, the Bush administration has committed a few billion dollars to hydrogen energy research (instead of adopting the Kyoto protocol, which is a silly idea anyway).

The bottom line is the US is not engaged in a crusade against terrorism; it is merely trying to secure resources to sustain the country. The morality of that decision is a different matter: the alternatives are a) taking other people's resources or b) dwindling away until the former superpower becomes a third-rate country... conscience vs. pockets!

And all this is taking place unbeknownst to the vast majority of Americans, which are simply wonderful people who should become aware of the situation, and make their own decision.
And I hope this thread remains flame free long enough to help achieve that. :)

Fair enough, I felt free to post and now I don't.
Land of the free eh?
In my country we would say "lift the baw, here's big boys" - ie. it's your thread, your game, and if you don't like the way others post / play you go in the huff.

I was making a genuine point, all be it in a light hearted way. Sorry you misunderstood:

Your man there just throws away the rest of the world. Suggests there is nothing that can be done. Ultimately claiming America is unstoppable.

And worse claims there is nothing that can be done. So what? You just let your government run your lives eh? Has the Terror Alert level ever been off yellow?

That's filthy lie! You take that back!



I cry everytime I hear my national anthem, but that's because it's God-awful.

"With golden soil and wealth for toil, our home is girt by sea"

GIRT?!

Ha ha, nice one, good to see some other people with a sense of humour. (yes that's Humour, with a U)

Understood, I think.
And I agree with that, but there was no need to start on it a page later. I plan to avoid this becoming a useless flamefest, and when a post is half laughing, that is a bad sign. As I said, feel free to post if it is a flame free thing and relevant. Personaly, I think mabye that would have seemed less flame-based if worded better, but as it is it was an open invitation to degreding this thread.

And to the poster earlier which he replied to, since this is a topic meant for understanding others PoV, please avoid post that revolve arround not worrying about other things.

Your man there just throws away the rest of the world. Suggests there is nothing that can be done. Ultimately claiming America is unstoppable.

And worse claims there is nothing that can be done. So what? You just let your government run your lives eh? Has the Terror Alert level ever been off yellow?

The American government is not unstoppable (remember the fall of the British Empire, which was doing the exact same things until WWII).

we're going to run out of oil in the next two centuries

Both technically true and false at the same time.

We will run out of oil which is derived from the earth through drilling and mineral extraction.

However there have been vast improvements in deriving oil from other substances, even waste products!

Take a look at this thread; http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402871, Urantia II brings up a very solid point. I may not particularly like his politics or his style, but I respect his opinion and his validity as another human being.

...

Even if he is an American :p
(j/k)

I was making a genuine point, all be it in a light hearted way. Sorry you misunderstood:

And I am sorry I misintpreted. Yet more proof that threads like this are needed for people who don't understand each other. So we can.

Both technically true and false at the same time.

We will run out of oil which is derived from the earth through drilling and mineral extraction.

However there have been vast improvements in deriving oil from other substances, even waste products!

Take a look at this thread; http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=402871, Urantia II brings up a very solid point. I may not particularly like his politics or his style, but I respect his opinion and his validity as another human being.

...

Even if he is an American :p
(j/k)

The question now is how much energy is required to synthesize oil. It has to come from somewhere... perhaps an oil-burning powerplant? ...
However, you are right. It would be more accurate to say that whatever fuel remains will be too expensive to use. What would happen to our economy then?

The real question in this matter is: If the yanks themselves can't do a thing about them being sucky, then what the hell is voting for?

Why so black and white? Either love everything about the US or hate everything about it? I like alot about the US. And I like the country more then I dislike it, most of the time. Even if I do think its heading towards the abyss, with its current policies. And risks collapse. If the US is still a mighty world power in twenty years. I'm sure it must have had a major change of policy within that time. To... competent leadership, or something like that.

But all in all, I quite like the US.

I just utterly loathe, despise, and would like to see the fifth president shot in office, George W. Bush though... And I feel about the same for the majority of his cronies, and some of his most vocal supporters. And I ain't embarrassed to say it. They make me sick. And to no small extent.

But I still like the US. It just needs to become more like Europe. And to permanently get rid of the CIA... (I mean, these clowns put the Taliban and Saddam in charge in the first place, amongst another long list of basically f***ing up everything in the long term.) Then it'd be perfect.

Maybe I could say that I'd love blue America and hate red America, but even that wouldn't be true. I just hate the most vocal element of red America and their leaders. Most of red America, I just think doesn't know whats good for it. As is evidenced by electing a guy that just can't do anything but make the rich richer, and wage costly wars upon people who I suppose, looked at him funny.

Not that the middle east folks are angels, but look into their history and it was probably the CIA's fault. Well... and the colonial age. I'll admit that.

The real question in this matter is: If the yanks themselves can't do a thing about them being sucky, then what the hell is voting for?
Well, voting is a work in progress I guess...
Plus the government doesn't realy have faith in voters, a prime example being the fact that the popular vote does NOT decide the presidential election.

I cry everytime I hear my national anthem, but that's because it's God-awful.
"With golden soil and wealth for toil, our home is girt by sea"
GIRT?!
I hear ya
Ha ha, nice one, good to see some other people with a sense of humour. (yes that's Humour, with a U)
You tell 'em. You can never have too many U's.
Yes, and few people realize how little influence the general public has on law here compared to what people believe. In truth, the general public elections don't even factor into the election of the president. Ironic, huh?
Which brings me to a point I must be ignorant about. Isn't there a part of the US constitution/DoI that encourages some kind of rebellion* should the government policies 'disagree' (to put it lightly) with the public consensus.

*The bit i'm probably ignorant about...

Which brings me to a point I must be ignorant about. Isn't there a part of the US constitution/DoI that encourages some kind of rebellion* should the government policies 'disagree' (to put it lightly) with the public consensus.

*The bit i'm probably ignorant about...
Yeah, but like others have said, we are frequently ignorant to much. And the politicians apply pretty much all their though(s) to conivncing us we are happy. Sad realy...

Sorry I didn't have time to read everyones posts so if other have read this they, me bad.

I dont hate america, I hate american culture. Take americans away from home and they can become nice people.
Someone said that they are free to say what they want. My ass you are free. Sure you may be free as long as you dont break the laws. But its the laws that suck ass in the first place. If I am wrong on anything I say then I appologise. But you guys can be thrown into jail just for saying something bad about america. Umm, is it the Patriot act? Also have can you express a free voice when you dont get free information.

And about changing your flaws. How many times you guys invaded iraq? You like it so much you keep going back? Bah. AND WHY THE HELL DID YOU RE-ELECT GEORGE BUSH AGAIN??????? He screwed you once and you go back for more.

As I said, if something I said is wrong. Me bad.

I have admited we are wrong, and I will in the future. And the government is full of idiots, as I said earlier. I won't deny it.

It is too bad that people like that represent your country in its foreign dealings then :( Could you run for president ?

Fine, go ahead. You are free to do so, and I won't stop you. Honestly, I don't care to try. America is flawed. We are attacking other nations. Our leaders are hypocritical very often. We are full of officials who's intelegence is ofter rivaled by toasters. Out own most popular entertainment sources assault our own officials and values.

But just remember, at least we are trying, and even if we are not always successful, at least we often realize that we are flawed and attempt to get it right eventualy. What else can we do?

Are you sure they hate America and Americans, or do they simply hate the Bush Administration?

As an relatively liberal American living in a very Republican/Red part of the nation, I happen to like my country, but I find it distressing that religious fundamentalists took over our government and are stripping our Constitution at home while acting as global dictators abroad. They talk about "liberating" the Iraqis when previously talking about WMDs there that didn't exist, but over here they regularly thrash the Islamic faith, so why are they really liberating a principally Islamic population if they have so little respect for them? :confused:

And I don't hate you. I don't hate nationalist, but being against those who believe being from a certain nation makes them better. That, I can understand.
I hate nationalists and those who support nationalists because their behaviour clash with my humanist ideals. I can't tolerate the behaviour of those who wave flags over the dead bodies of people who were unjustly killed at the world trade center, like the violation of their territory was more important than the crime commited against humanity. I don't recognize that this territory belong to them more than it belong to all of us.

It is too bad that people like that represent your country in its foreign dealings then :( Could you run for president ?
At 16 years old? Nope. Gimme a few years. Eventualy we will find a good one. Process of elimination, law of averages, whatever can happen will happen, all that stuff.

And about changing your flaws. How many times you guys invaded iraq? You like it so much you keep going back? Bah. AND WHY THE HELL DID YOU RE-ELECT GEORGE BUSH AGAIN??????? He screwed you once and you go back for more.

As I said, if something I said is wrong. Me bad.
How many times did we invade Iraq? Well, I personaly have not gone there yet.

Re-election: Once again, WE DIDN'T! Say it with me people: E-L-E-C-T-O-R-A-L C-O-L-E-D-G-E-S.(yeah, bad spelling, so what)

How many times did we invade Iraq? Well, I personaly have not gone there yet.

Re-election: Once again, WE DIDN'T! Say it with me people: E-L-E-C-T-O-R-A-L C-O-L-E-D-G-E-S.(yeah, bad spelling, so what)

Bush won the popular vote in 2004 by approximately 3 million votes.

Bush won the popular vote in 2004 by approximately 3 million votes.
Out of how many, and based on which recount?

Either way, what gets you elected is electoral colleges(with 2/3 of votes, I believe) not the fact that more old gun nuts voted that sensible people. Let's face it, votes are not a truely balanced showing of people's opinions.

Sorry I didn't have time to read everyones posts so if other have read this they, me bad.

I dont hate america, I hate american culture. Take americans away from home and they can become nice people.
Our culture? What about it in particular? Our Hollywood? Our music? Our food? Or our religion?


Someone said that they are free to say what they want. My ass you are free. Sure you may be free as long as you dont break the laws. But its the laws that suck ass in the first place. If I am wrong on anything I say then I appologise. But you guys can be thrown into jail just for saying something bad about america. Umm, is it the Patriot act? Also have can you express a free voice when you dont get free information.

The Patriot Act is an invasion of privacy but let's be honest here: I can say "Bush can kiss my city-slickin' ass" right here, from my home in North Florida (very conservative part of the nation may I add), and get away with it. For the most part, I can even say that to my republican friends and they won't care. Of course though, you get some of these idiot nationalists--liberal and conservative--who will demonize and harass those who don't fit into their narrow view of society, and those types frighten me.

As for free information, there is that issue of corporate control of the mass media, and that's a problem I don't know how to address... especially since I'm going to be a part of that machine pretty soon.

And about changing your flaws. How many times you guys invaded iraq? You like it so much you keep going back? Bah. AND WHY THE HELL DID YOU RE-ELECT GEORGE BUSH AGAIN??????? He screwed you once and you go back for more.

As I said, if something I said is wrong. Me bad.

Can't speak for the majority here, but I voted for Kerry, and honestly preferred Howard Dean.

Please, quit overgeneralizing! For every Bush supporter in the US, there was someone else looking for a better way, and we got fucked out of it.

I hate America. :)

Out of how many, and based on which recount?

Either way, what gets you elected is electoral colleges(with 2/3 of votes, I believe) not the fact that more old gun nuts voted that sensible people. Let's face it, votes are not a truely balanced showing of people's opinions.

According to the official count, rounded to the nearest million. Take all the recounts you want and Bush still got more votes.

Once again, it is hardly a fair show of all opinions, and that is a few million out of many more million.

Once again, it is hardly a fair show of all opinions, and that is a few million out of many more million.

Nobody said its a flawless process. But the fact remains that most people who voted, voted for Bush.

True

Kerry was no better than Bush. I believe he was more dangerous because more clever.

Today's politician=crap. Plain and simple here at least. Well, process of elimination...

Kerry was no better than Bush. I believe he was more dangerous because more clever.

thats nice, but whats it have to do with the topic?

thats nice, but whats it have to do with the topic?
I'm not sure it has anything to do at all. Or if there is a remote link, it would be that the US citizens are not responsible for electing an idiot because they did not really have any choice and therefore it is pointless to hate them for that.

I'm not sure it has anything to do at all. Or if there is a remote link, it would be that the US citizens are not responsible for electing an idiot because they did not really have any choice and therefore it is pointless to hate them for that.

They had choices in the primaries. They also had candidates from several other parties.

They had choices in the primaries. They also had candidates from several other parties.
That is true. I must admit they are a little brain washed by decades of war. I don't blame them for that but I wish they considered some of the alternatives to violent global capitalist dictatorship.

America is a continent not a country. Canada is great!

America is a continent not a country. Canada is great!

America is not a continent. It is a region. It includes North, Central, and South America as well as the Caribbean and Greenland.

Personly I love Americans. I just not like the Current Goverment. I also don't like national from any where, americal, brittion (football anyone?) etc. you known the sort "X country is the best, we did F,U,C,J,D,R, things. woo hoo!!!11!!!

America is not a continent. It is a region. It includes North, Central, and South America as well as the Caribbean and Greenland.
Pardon me!
If you want to be pedantic about it...

America is two continents and some islands. Not a country!

I remember my friends shirt. Pretty funny.


Don't hate America, hate Prime Minister Bush

That's filthy lie! You take that back!



I cry everytime I hear my national anthem, but that's because it's God-awful.

"With golden soil and wealth for toil, our home is girt by sea"

GIRT?!


Hehehehe... reminds me of some TV show on (the aussie) ABC. "What the hell is it with girt anyway? Have you ever heard the police say "Come out with your hands up, we have you girt"

How many times did we invade Iraq? Well, I personaly have not gone there yet.

Re-election: Once again, WE DIDN'T! Say it with me people: E-L-E-C-T-O-R-A-L C-O-L-E-D-G-E-S.(yeah, bad spelling, so what)

I must admit, I've always found it odd watching GWB claiming that Iraq is a better place for the U.S. having given it democracy when you have such a bizarre electoral system - what is it with the electoral college thing ?

This isn't in any way, shape or form intended as a flame, I'm just curious as to how Americans percieve / think of their system of democracy.

I must admit, I've always found it odd watching GWB claiming that Iraq is a better place for the U.S. having given it democracy when you have such a bizarre electoral system - what is it with the electoral college thing ?

This isn't in any way, shape or form intended as a flame, I'm just curious as to how Americans percieve / think of their system of democracy.

Well the founding fathers doidn't think back than that America could vote wisely. Also since county was smaller it wasn't that bad.
Now with all the technology, people should vote directly, but people keep say that direct voing would be anarchy.
Something about Mob rule or something.

I must admit, I've always found it odd watching GWB claiming that Iraq is a better place for the U.S. having given it democracy when you have such a bizarre electoral system - what is it with the electoral college thing ?

This isn't in any way, shape or form intended as a flame, I'm just curious as to how Americans percieve / think of their system of democracy.

The electoral college isn't bad per se, its just outdated by 100 or so years.
In the 1800's they didn't have the resources / technology to total up all the votes from all the candidates and compare, so they broke it up by state. Each state then got a certain number of points based on population.

It made sense for the time, but now we have seen that it is obviously flawed and it should be changed.

I think deep down we (Americans) fear change and will be reluctant to make a ny changes to the process, even if they are for the better. (Metric system anyone?)

Well the founding fathers doidn't think back than that America could vote wisely. Also since county was smaller it wasn't that bad.
Now with all the technology, people should vote directly, but people keep say that direct voing would be anarchy.
Something about Mob rule or something.

Well, without the electoral college we would have had Al Gore in office when the World Trade Center was attacked.... now there's a sickening thought...

There is a difference between disliking Americans and disliking the American administration in The White House etc.

I dislike the Bush Administration, and I have disliked the ones who have the same thought process (Reagan foe example)

Does this mean I dislike Americans? No.

I dislike Americans who are ultra-nationalistic, insular, xenophobic and arrogant and often intolerant, and of course every nation has these, it's just that because of the US power at the moment, their voices are being heard more often.

But again, that does not mean I dislike Americans. To say I dislike Americans full stop is to brand any American living today as someone I would dislike.

Which really is too broad of the painting brush to digest as logical.

Sadly, the stereotypical 'ugly American' sticks too readily in the conciousness rather than the 'thoughtful american' and this is what leads to Anti-Americanism, fuelled already by the Anti-Bushism.

I have encountered 'ugly Americans' and they are not very pleasant people. But here is what is integral: Is their behaviour due to their nationality, or their personality?

I say personality.

But, I am sorry to say, alot of Americans who go aboard are like this, and seem to outnumber normal Americans who don't.

The "Oh god, this country sucks, in America we have so much better things blah blah blah" and such comments raise hackles.

'ugly Americans' are loud and patronising, and are hurtful not only in their comments, but hurtful towards their nation's image.


In 20-40 years we may all look back on these days as distant memories as we criticise the arrogance and actions of the next superpower = China

It's funny how citizens of the USA take criticisms of their government, way of life and (lack of) culture personally.

I hate the biggest is best attitude, the selfish 'I want this' and 'I'm gonna do that and I don't give a damn about you' attitude. I hate the consumerism, the large freeways, the fast food, the stupid gun-totin' Hollywood blockbusters. I hate the way you can't do anything because you're too scared of being sued.

I hate the way the common language has degraded so that 'ho' and 'crack' are commonplace, and thought to be funny.

But I don't hate US Americans. Every American I've met I've liked, but then again they've all been highly intelligent work colleagues.

Well, without the electoral college we would have had Al Gore in office when the World Trade Center was attacked.... now there's a sickening thought...

Why is this sickening? I can't think of anything worse than the 9/11 disaster and the Bush administration let it happen. Maybe if Gore was in power they would have heeded the prior warnings.

I'm sure Gore would have still gone after Osama, and probably not stopped before finding him like Bush has done. He would not have invaded Iraq either, so America would be more popular than now with the Arabic world.

Most people who claim that they hate the USA don't actually hate "America" or it's general population, they just hate George W Bush and the majority of the government.

I personally have liked every American i've ever met, and i plan to move to the US (somewhere on the west coast) as soon as a new president is elected. :)

Most people who claim that they hate the USA don't actually hate "America" or it's general population, they just hate George W Bush and the majority of the government.

I personally have liked every American i've ever met, and i plan to move to the US (somewhere on the west coast) as soon as a new president is elected. :)

Even if it's another Republican ;) ?

Look people,
GO live in one of these other countries for a week and you'll be begging to come back to america and have the freedoms you want. Maybe our administration isn't wonderful but if you think about it it is the americans fault we voted them in. They just sat back and watched. So stop complaining you voted them in it was your decision!

No, why would they? People hate the US for what it does, not for what it is. Havent you noticed people who hate US policy still see nothing wrong with visiting the US? The US is a great place to visit, but we just hate its policies. Oh, btw Ive never met anyone who hates America. Most people have nothing against Argentina, Nicaragua, Peru, Mexico, Canada, Chile, Brasil, the lesser Antilles, and the rest of America. The US is the only real troublemaker in the region (and arguably Cuba....arguably).

Funny.
You aren't so ignorant as to understand the common names for different countries. As I have not visited every country in the world, I only know from the few years that I've lived in Great Britain that they are just fine with the term "America" as a reference to the United States of America (that being something of a mouthful) and the time I've spent in Brazil (yes, and you used the portuguese spelling) that the more smart alecky of the brasileiros would like to make a term like "Unitedstatsian" rather than "American." But everyone else seemed intelligent enough to understand the common terms.

Most people who claim that they hate the USA don't actually hate "America" or it's general population, they just hate George W Bush and the majority of the government.

I personally have liked every American i've ever met, and i plan to move to the US (somewhere on the west coast) as soon as a new president is elected. :)

Is that true today? I lived in Great Britain during the first Bush and the Clinton administrations, and it seemed like there were still plenty of people who hated America, and wished to express this to me in a thier own ways.

I remembering somehow having to explain to someone how Waco wasn't a good representation of Americaness. It sounds so rediculous to me now that I even had to make that argument.

International hatred for America is not something new. It's just that today there's more to talk about, and Americans will be far more offended when you start to say that they deserved 9-11, or that any sort of retaliation for 9-11 is completely uncalled for. (Churchill's Little Eichmanns comes to mind)

But the only thing that is instrinsically wrong with America is that it is powerful. These days there isn't really a competition for most powerful military. And American economics hold powerful sway across the world, and even though it isn't the per capita richest country in the world, you wouldn't know that from any normal media sources.
If the President of the U.S. is the most powerful man on earth, then I can uderstand a certain resentment of being left out of such an important election.

But the time I spent outside of the country during the Bush administration (and during 9-11) most of the criticisms seemed like they were directed at Bush for things that he had nothing to do with. (Israel attacking Palastine comes to mind)
There was also a lot of anti-american commentary BEFORE they did anything in Afganistan (I even saw a few television ads) It's mutation into anti war in Iraq was natural. (I haven't heard anything terrible about Afganistan recently)

I guess what I'm saying is that Anti-American notions aren't really related to Bush like most people in America and out seem to think. It's been around for a long while, and will be long after Bush is gone.

I remember my friends shirt. Pretty funny.


Don't hate America, hate Prime Minister Bush

Now, as to people who are ignorant of the world...

The US does not have a Prime Minister...

Well, without the electoral college we would have had Al Gore in office when the World Trade Center was attacked.... now there's a sickening thought...


No, we wouldn't have had Gore.
you remember all those horrid recounts in Florida? The lack or resolution until appeals to the judicial branch finally finished the matter?

Well, imagine if that had happened across the nation. The counting machines in every state have a margine of error. The margine of popular victory in 2000 was well within that margine of error.

In other words, the electoral college kept the recounts in florida rather than spreading them to every state.

And I'd like to say, Bill Clinton actually recieved fewer popular votes than George W. No one questioned the legitimacy of the situation then, though.

I will admit, however, that the college is the most archaic of electoral systems (this being due to the age of the american constitution) Americans are afraid of changes to the constitution because it is that constitution that keeps America from becoming a dictatorship.

George Washington was the best president because he relenquished power rather than remaining president for the rest of his life. He believed that the people would choose what is best for them, rather than a Fidel Castro style "I know what's best for you" government.

...The problem with your thread, however, is that these threads never stay thoughtful and or civil, and you are likely to get 2-3 pages of worthwhile response at the most.
Most responses are just mindless insults or worthless dribbles of hate and ignorance. No one will ever start any real world progress if we can't even speak with civility and intelligence.

...He would not have invaded Iraq either, so America would be more popular than now with the Arabic world.
Since when the hell does that matter?

I remember my friends shirt. Pretty funny.


Don't hate America, hate Prime Minister Bush

Now, as to people who are ignorant of the world...

The US does not have a Prime Minister...

if it did, it wouldn't be funny

Most people who claim that they hate the USA don't actually hate "America" or it's general population, they just hate George W Bush and the majority of the government.

I personally have liked every American i've ever met, and i plan to move to the US (somewhere on the west coast) as soon as a new president is elected. :)

What a foolish sentiment.

I dislike America with Bush in charge. I disliked America when Clinton was in charge. I will dislike America whoever the next monkey-in-a-man-suit is.

Why? Well I have spent pages and pages on other threads ranting on about why I dislike America so I won't spend any more time discussing it. Suffice to say I do dislike it, have always disliked it and will always dislike it - unless, by some miracle, correct British order is restored and once again America regains its true status as a colony of a far greater people.

There really is nothing we can do. Don't see the point in caring what the world thought about the United States, it's not like they can do anything about it anyway.

You dont care about the rest of the world. The rest of the world has no choice but to care about you seeing as you (Americans) force America down everyone elses throats. Many people hate America but theres not much they can do about it. Ameirca seems to dislike a great deal of other countries and its prepared to go marching around to do something about it. Tell me, why should the rest of the world be forced to do what America thinks and not vice versa?

You dont care about the rest of the world. The rest of the world has no choice but to care about you seeing as you (Americans) force America down everyone elses throats. Many people hate America but theres not much they can do about it. Ameirca seems to dislike a great deal of other countries and its prepared to go marching around to do something about it. Tell me, why should the rest of the world be forced to do what America thinks and not vice versa?

Because we have the unstoppable military ability to do our will whereever we wish.

Because we have the unstoppable military ability to do our will whereever we wish.

Do you seriously believe that that makes it morraly right. And your millitary is not unstopable. See Vietnam for further refernce.

Do you seriously believe that that makes it morraly right. And your millitary is not unstopable. See Vietnam for further refernce.

No, morality has nothing to do with it.
Yes, it is.
Vietnam was a long, long time ago, and our military has been radically transformed to address all of the failings of that war.

If that were not true, then the insurgents in Iraq would not be reduced to killing their own people, planting random bombs, and kidnapping GI Joe dolls and claiming that they have American soldiers.

Our death rate in Vietnam was 6111 combat deaths per year. We're 1/8th the death rate in Iraq - and we've suppressed an insurgency more effectively than we did in Vietnam.

Go ahead - tell me that buying a GI Joe doll and putting it on a website and claiming it is a US soldier is an effective insurgency.

No, morality has nothing to do with it.


I am not arguing how effective the American millitary is. I am arguing about Americas RIGHT to force itself on everyone else. Not its ability to do so.

Most responses are just mindless insults or worthless dribbles of hate and ignorance. No one will ever start any real world progress if we can't even speak with civility and intelligence.

Does someone actually think that progress will start with a nationstates thread?

If you come for some kicks, then come on in.

No, morality has nothing to do with it.
Yes, it is.
Vietnam was a long, long time ago, and our military has been radically transformed to address all of the failings of that war.

If that were not true, then the insurgents in Iraq would not be reduced to killing their own people, planting random bombs, and kidnapping GI Joe dolls and claiming that they have American soldiers.

Our death rate in Vietnam was 6111 combat deaths per year. We're 1/8th the death rate in Iraq - and we've suppressed an insurgency more effectively than we did in Vietnam.

Go ahead - tell me that buying a GI Joe doll and putting it on a website and claiming it is a US soldier is an effective insurgency.



this is a mentality that, i must confess, scares the bajeezus out of me. No military is invincible, and there is no garanteed victory. (yes i've studied sun tzu)

Yes, American military is the strongest current standing military on earth. But the battle goes not always to the strongest.
The greatest military on earth has been defeated before. British fleets have been sunk, German war machines stalled, Roman empires collapsed.
With each new war, there is a new face of war- new technologies allow for new tactics. Polotics dissuade other tactics from coming to the fore. battles go to those who understand this new face of war, and how to exploit the weaknesses of the old face.
(You can see this with Alexander, Henry V, Grant, Patton and others. You must understand how this war is different from the ones you can study in a book)

But, as Vietnam proved, It isn't always the strongest military that figures out how to fight this war first.

And as long as the US believes it's army invincible, I'm scared to death.

You dont care about the rest of the world. The rest of the world has no choice but to care about you seeing as you (Americans) force America down everyone elses throats. Many people hate America but theres not much they can do about it. Ameirca seems to dislike a great deal of other countries and its prepared to go marching around to do something about it. Tell me, why should the rest of the world be forced to do what America thinks and not vice versa?

Y'know, Whispering legs has a point. You aren't really invoking the issue of morality at all.
and that is quite the topic indeed. But it almost seems like you are advocating a territorial democracy where nations must follow majority rule. That may or may not be a good idea, but it certainly isn't the status quo. And it would be a hard push, since presumably, each nation would have to agree to it's enactment.

I don't hate America, I'm just indifferent towards it. I disagree with British involvement in the Iraq war, but only because I don't think the war was in our interests. I couldn't care less wether the US invades some desert country as long as we're not involved in it. I hate Blair more than Bush. Bush really doesn't matter to me.

I'm American, and I love my country. I'm very proud of our history, well the good parts at least. I admitt that America has made many mistakes in the past and present, and I'm not going to try to argue that we are anywhere near perfect. But then, no country is.

There are parts of America that I dislike. I dislike our pop culture; a culture that over-exploits every new and orignal idea (anyone remember when The Real World was like the ONLY reality show?), and is demoninated by the talentless, noisy rabble some people call rap. I dislike how blantantly racist a lot of people still are (white, black, hispanic, and otherwise). I dislike how these days, one can sue another person for practically any offense (I'm sure you've all heard tales of criminals breaking into houses, injurying themselves in the process, then suing the homeowner and winning).

My feelings on Bush? I'm pretty indifferent about him. I didn't vote for him (I voted Badnarik), and I don't think he's the best president in the world. But at the same time, I absolutely disagree with all the bashing he's received. One thing that sticks out in my mind is people always saying how terrible and awful our economy is. That simply isn't true. Yes, we had a recession (from November '01-March -'02 I believe), but it was A LOT milder than many people would have us believe. The only problem with the economy (aside for the recession, of course) was it's slow rate of growth. And that is hardly Bush's fault. Either way, the economy has been getting much better in the last 6th months.

Our country's biggest problem today, in my oppinion, is the general population's apathy. I mean, the most people really don't give that much thought or care to the rest of the world. That may explain the conflict between Americans and Europe. Europe has a better sense of what's going on today in different parts of the world, while Americans generally only see what news reporters tell them via televeision. And generally, news reporters only tell us the bad things. So it gives us Americans the general impression that whenever we turn around, there's someone sayings bad things about America, or there's some mob burning an American flag, etc.

Another barrier between us and Europe, is we Americans generally seem to see things in Black and White. Either you're against terrorism, or you're for it. Either you're a free, democratic nation, or you're a enslaved, depotism. Either you love America, or you hate us. I sincerely believe that's how most American see things. And Europeans seem to see that there's more grey areas in life. But not always; sometimes they're guilty of the same sins we are.

I think all we all really need is some better communication. We just don't seem to be able to see eye-to-eye any more. Maybe if we can get everyone on the same page, and on the same side, maybe we can fix the bad things that are going on today, and just stop all the malice that's floating around.

Fine, go ahead. You are free to do so, and I won't stop you. Honestly, I don't care to try. America is flawed. We are attacking other nations. Our leaders are hypocritical very often. We are full of officials who's intelegence is ofter rivaled by toasters. Out own most popular entertainment sources assault our own officials and values.

But just remember, at least we are trying, and even if we are not always successful, at least we often realize that we are flawed and attempt to get it right eventualy. What else can we do?

Well, I think its important to remember that the American people are NOT the American government. While I completely detest the American government, I have a lot of good feelings about my fellow American people. I've met some great ones in my time, even the ones I don't always agree with. So no, I don't hate America because it's full of some really great folks, they just ended up with a really sucky government. lol

People are going to hate America no matter what it does. All Americans could selflessly give their hard-earned money, food, and what-not to poor, starving Third World children and they would hate us for it. There will always be a vocal number of people who believe that all Americans should be shot. There will always be those who laugh at the U.S. whenever it is inflicted with a 9/11-style tragedy, claiming it was "deserved." That argument is flawed on so many levels it's insane.

As far as I am concerned, those people can take a bath in kerosene and dry off with a blowtorch. In fact, if they choose to do so, I will pay $100 for the Pay-Per-View rights to watch it.

dude i totally understand what u are saying these third world only hate us as americans because they dont have the things that we have and we take advantage of it but is that not the reason we have stuff to take advantageif it. i mean its not our fault that there economy is screwed and there goverment sucks what can we do . i can safely say that our goverment (U.S) sticks there nose in allot of stuff that it should not be but even when we are there to help these third world countries we are not thanked all we have ever gotten from these countries is "can i have some money" like we are oblegated to help them and give them money hell these people are not stupid they can make there own company and make there own money if they wanted if they stop begging for money and done some thing for themselves for a change would be nice and it would help them aswell :sniper:

But, as Vietnam proved, It isn't always the strongest military that figures out how to fight this war first.

And as long as the US believes it's army invincible, I'm scared to death.


You all keep bringing up Vietnam - a lesson that we learned and learned from. It's why our military is so far advanced from those days that we might as well be from Mars.

We learned that you can't fight a war if you're fighting man to man - in what amounts to a fair fight.

You have to have an asymmetrical technological advantage, and keep it.

And because of that, and because no other military is investing in that idea - we have the ability to defeat virtually any nation on Earth in a conventional war.

Originally posted by: New Philadelphia
I think all we all really need is some better communication. We just don't seem to be able to see eye-to-eye any more. Maybe if we can get everyone on the same page, and on the same side, maybe we can fix the bad things that are going on today, and just stop all the malice that's floating around.

I think that's right. And I think that any world leaders should probably have studied something in university that opens their minds to other cultures' and countries' points of view. Like anthropology for example.

Before I read this thread I was pretty sure I hated America, but sometimes we need to review our beliefs on things like that. IE: "Why do you hate America?" "Because they invade other countries." Well the whole of America wasn't behind that.

Y'know, Whispering legs has a point. You aren't really invoking the issue of morality at all.
and that is quite the topic indeed. But it almost seems like you are advocating a territorial democracy where nations must follow majority rule. That may or may not be a good idea, but it certainly isn't the status quo. And it would be a hard push, since presumably, each nation would have to agree to it's enactment.

Neo wants a world where if they need armed forces to enforce the UN's will (a UN without a vote for the US), the US will slavishly go wherever the UN sends it.

That's the only way the UN could be effective, and Neo could be happy with the exercise of US power.

Fat chance.

Do you seriously believe that that makes it morraly right. And your millitary is not unstopable. See Vietnam for further refernce.
I'll see your Vietnam, and raise you one Kampuchea. (Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge).

Vietnam was probably the best reason NOT to ask a collection of European Allies if America should get involved. 50,000 Americans might not be dead, if Truman hadn't chosen to support the French in Indochina, instead of the Vietminh (who were trained by the OSS during the Second World War.)
Ho Chi Minh was a U.S. ALLY prior to 1946, when it was decided that we needed to help France revitalize her shattered economy rather than rewarding those who fought against the Japanese occupiers. (The French in Indochina Collaborated with Japan!)

We learnt an AWFUL lot about what not to do from that one-like supporting the people who support US instead of propping up people who despise US, because of their "Rich Cultural Traditions" and "Contributions to Civilization".

If there is a reason for the "With us or against us" attitude most Americans have (and which pisses off so many of our intellectual superiors, both here, and abroad), it's the WONDERFUL experieces we've had every time we ask "The Rest of the World" what we ought to do.

F'rinstance, being a U.N. Operation, the Korean War is still not over, American troops are still in the same positions they were in in 1953, only now North Korea has Thermonuclear death at their fingertips, and South Korea's a vaccillating ally.

On the other hand, there's a very good chance American troops will be able to come home from Iraq without having to eternally man the borders of that country, sometime before I get older and grayer than I already am.

The difference: We didn't ask a comittee in the U.N. what to do, we just up and did it-and probably kept a few tens of thousands of additional people from being gassed/shot/raped by the Ba'athist regime.

On the Gripping Hand: When has a U.N operation that involved Military Force come to a successful conclusion with lasting results? Compare the number of those, with the number of successful outcomes when the U.S. and a select handfull of actual ALLIES who don't stab one another in the back, have conducted a similar set of missions?

Yah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asengard
...He would not have invaded Iraq either, so America would be more popular than now with the Arabic world.

Since when the hell does that matter?

It's this exact attitude that makes America so unpopular.
It matters because you share a planet with these people, they aren't going anywhere and the quicker we all learn to cooperate with each other the better the world will be.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Constantly posting stupid threads like this is the reason some..stressing some not all Americans are hated........Stop feeling so insulted. If ya can't handel the heat then get out of the kitchen. Have you ever met someone from another country who you hated? If the answer is no..travel more
If yes...please accept so has every one else so move on....

First of all I must say that I am an extremist. I hate the US of A and all that it stands for. I hate the United Statesmen. I boycott McDonald's! *gasp* However I do know that this is a moderate thread and the best way for me to get heard is by not shouting.

Secondly I am happy that this thread has been posted. It is good that we may express our views. However, I hope that people will not be too sensitve and waste forum space pushing other peoples' statements around.

I read a book once entitled "Why do people hate America?" I did not understand it at all.

People hate the US of A because its vulgar side, the crude, thoughtless, loudmouthed, nationalistic facade happens to be the loudest and most easily seen.

People hate the US of A because they see their futures and their pasts being stolen from them by a vast fog of multinational conglomerates. They are losing their national identities to brands such as Nike, Desperate Housewives, and they harbour irrational fears that they will become uniform trade colonies trapped by economy.

People hate the US of A because they see it as the ultimate Rogue nation, not a benevolent hedgehog. Thought through carefully, the US of A's support of Isra-el appears rather unfair. It disses UN resolutions.

People hate the US of A because it is powerful.

Most of all, people hate the US of A because they think that the United Statesmen do not listen.

"With golden soil and wealth for toil, our home is dirt by sea"

snip

I used to want to live in Singapore... I felt they were more moral and technologically advanced.

Yet another dream that was assailed by practicality.