NationStates Jolt Archive

High economic growth, one-party system, appeasement politics by the west, nationalism, paranoia,

China just gave an ultimatum to Austria, ehm sorry, Taiwan to unify with the Reich or face war.

http://english1.peopledaily.com.cn/200503/14/eng20050314_176746.html

Taiwan and China will reunify sooner or later...get over it.

High economic growth, one-party system, appeasement politics by the west, nationalism, paranoia,

China just gave an ultimatum to Austria, ehm sorry, Taiwan to unify with the Reich or face war.

http://english1.peopledaily.com.cn/200503/14/eng20050314_176746.html


I guess that would mean Japan would be like Britain...

India like Spain, and hmmmm who would be the French? Malaysia? maybe...Burma perhaps.... Definitely not Vietnam...To me Vietnam is like Poland. Fought till the very end. =)

eh w/e

Taiwan and China will reunify sooner or later...get over it.


Taiwan doesnt want to reunify thats the thing...so will the US defend Taiwan till the end?

Taiwan and China will reunify sooner or later...get over it.

I dont see how as long as the US swears to defend it... China will all its power now still does not compare to United States Technology.. even they arn't willing to threaten war with the US

Taiwan doesnt want to...
Does it matter?

Does it matter?

It does when Taiwan can currently stop any reunification attempt, and when the US currently seems to be of the "bitter end" thought process.

The other question: will China stop after Taiwan or take Mongolia, Korea, Vietnam too? Actually, Taiwan left the Chinese Empire earlier than (Outer) Mongolia.

Will China take over Singapore? After all they speak Mandarin there. How about Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, where much of the business is in Chinese hands?

It does when Taiwan can currently stop...ChinaTaiwan cant "currently" stop China...

I think a better question would be, what do you propose we do about it? There is a billion of them, and the Chinese military is the biggest employer in the world. Doesn't seem like there is much anyone can do to stop them.

Taiwan cant "currently" stop China...

Uh yeah, Taiwan can. China doesn't have the ability to conquer Taiwan because Taiwan can knock down Chinese planes from the sky and sink their boats before they could hope to conquer Taiwan.

What China could do is nuke Taiwan. Something China doesn't want to do because China actually wants to control something other than a glass parking lot.

The other question: will China stop after Taiwan or take Mongolia, Korea, Vietnam too? Actually, Taiwan left the Chinese Empire earlier than (Outer) Mongolia.
Mainland China doesn't have any claim to those lands. In fact the Republic of China still claims Outer Mongolia while the PRC doesn't want to disturb any other borders.

Will China take over Singapore? After all they speak Mandarin there. How about Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, where much of the business is in Chinese hands?
Unlikely. China doesn't care about seizing this land in southeast Asia. I think you are paranoid. And in the case of a hypothetical Chinese invasion, The forces of jihad will easily defeat a Chinese attack in Indonesia and Malaysia. :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Although I highly doubt that Taiwan will ever declare independence, therefore China will most likely never invade Taiwan. I think Taiwan and China will be mutually exclusive, self-governing nations indefinitely, neither side provoking the other because any conflict over Taiwan would likely decimate the world's economic system, given that nations are so interdependent nowadays.

The other question: will China stop after Taiwan or take Mongolia, Korea, Vietnam too? Actually, Taiwan left the Chinese Empire earlier than (Outer) Mongolia.

Will China take over Singapore? After all they speak Mandarin there. How about Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, where much of the business is in Chinese hands?


The Chinese seem to be rather isolationist and don't seem like a country that would run around conquering its neighbors to me. Plus they don't even need to seeing as they've got the resources and people they need already. What they do need is more infrastructure, something that won't be helped by fighting a war.

Uh yeah, Taiwan can. China doesn't have the ability to conquer Taiwan because Taiwan can knock down Chinese planes from the sky and sink their boats before they could hope to conquer Taiwan.

What China could do is nuke Taiwan. Something China doesn't want to do because China actually wants to control something other than a glass parking lot.

Worlds biggest parking lot would make a great tourist attraction. ;) make lots of revenue.

Worlds biggest parking lot would make a great tourist attraction. ;) make lots of revenue.
I'd go see it.

I think a better question would be, what do you propose we do about it? There is a billion of them, and the Chinese military is the biggest employer in the world. Doesn't seem like there is much anyone can do to stop them.

You can give them more dollars so they can buy more US treasury bonds and threaten to sell them in one day.

Or they use the dollars to buy weapons from Europe soon.

How to give them dollars? Go to Walmart, Sears or home depot and buy cheap Chinese products.

as they've got the resources and people they need already.

They might have people, but they don't have resources.

While the US was busy burning oil in Iraq, China went around and bought oil wells all over the world, as well as agricultural land in Kazachstan and Africa.

For infrastructure they need iron ore, which they don't have, as well as nickel, which they don't have, and oil and food (there are no plants growing on streets and factories).

You can give them more dollars so they can buy more US treasury bonds and threaten to sell them in one day.
If China ruins the American economy by shooting the bonds-held-hostage, that would in turn ruin CHina's economy because they are primarily an export economy that depend on us Americans buying China-made. This scenario is nearly impossible. China's leaders are not suicidal. Their grasp on power rests solely on China's strong economy. If the Chinese economy failed, the Chinese people would revolt.

Or they use the dollars to buy weapons from Europe soon.

How to give them dollars? Go to Walmart, Sears or home depot and buy cheap Chinese products.
Yeah, I agree that the massive flow of dollars from the US to CHina could be a big problem soon.

You can give them more dollars so they can buy more US treasury bonds and threaten to sell them in one day.

Or they use the dollars to buy weapons from Europe soon.

How to give them dollars? Go to Walmart, Sears or home depot and buy cheap Chinese products.

not really.. because if the US defaulted on those treasure bonds, not only would the US economy spiral into bankrupsy.. so would the Chinese economy... unlike with poor 3rd world nations

when the rich people can't pay their bills.. its not their problem, its the lenders problem..

I think a better question would be, what do you propose we do about it? There is a billion of them, and the Chinese military is the biggest employer in the world. Doesn't seem like there is much anyone can do to stop them.

In the spirit of this thread I thought you would realize that there were people that thought the way you did some time ago in a place called Munich. I think the policy is called appeasement. If Tiawan wants to remain a free and sovereign state then her allies should and probably will defend that if China were ever to try to take Tiawan (unlikely in my opinion). And for another thing it wouldn't be too difficult to stop China in that endeavor. The Chinese 'army' may be very large but the navy and air force cannot stand up to a United States and/or coalition (Tiawan, Japan, South Korea to name a few) force. Occupation of the mainland wouldn't be necessary. A naval blockade as well as the political/economic isolation resulting from such an attempt would end it rather quickly.

They might have people, but they don't have resources.

While the US was busy burning oil in Iraq, China went around and bought oil wells all over the world, as well as agricultural land in Kazachstan and Africa.

For infrastructure they need iron ore, which they don't have, as well as nickel, which they don't have, and oil and food (there are no plants growing on streets and factories).
True... China's future growth is going to be severely limited by lack of resources - mainly fuel. I was in CHina the past summer, and the vast majority of the huge world-class skyscrapers that China has built could not be lit up at night because there were energy shortages.

In the spirit of this thread I thought you would realize that there were people that thought the way you did some time ago in a place called Munich. I think the policy is called appeasement. If Tiawan wants to remain a free and sovereign state then her allies should and probably will defend that if China were ever to try taking Tiawan (unlikely in my opinion). And for another thing it wouldn't be too difficult. The Chinese 'army' may be very large but the navy and air force cannot stand up to a United States and/or coalition force. Occupation of the mainland wouldn't be necessary. A naval blockade as well as the political/economic isolation resulting from such an attempt would end it rather quickly.
That seems pretty idealistic and naive. There wouldn't be much stopping the Chinese military if it wanted to invade. They probably know Kung Fu and stuff too, that can't help. Lets be fair too, Nazi Germany didn't have a billion people. They had an incredible industrial sector, but a billion people are hard to stop. I'm not saying we should appease them. I just honestly think we're screwed if it comes to that.

That seems pretty idealistic and naive. There wouldn't be much stopping the Chinese military if it wanted to invade. They probably know Kung Fu and stuff too, that can't help. Lets be fair too, Nazi Germany didn't have a billion people. They had an incredible industrial sector, but a billion people are hard to stop. I'm not saying we should appease them. I just honestly think we're screwed if it comes to that.

Because China does not have an adequate navy to protect their transport ships from a fully modernized one than they can't really move them across the Formosa straight to Tiawan now can they? Same thing to China's airforce. The Chinese would simply be unable to move their troops anywhere over water. Tiawan is very well defended in both regards. Once China's floating joke of a navy and out of date air force are dealt with a blockade would be rather simple. While an invasion of the mainland would be unfeasible (at least until our airforce could deal some major damage to the Chinese war machine) a naval blockade plus the resulting isolation would effectively bring an end to the conflict. Especially since fuel problems would quickly occur for the Chinese military. Thus they would only have a whole lot of cannon fodder of infantry.

Kung Fu? I don't think I'm the one that is acting naive.

Have to agree. Doesn't matter how many troops you have if you can't deliver them to the front. How well does Red China's Army swim...?

Kung Fu? I don't think I'm the one that is acting naive.
I was kidding.

...but they do

High economic growth, one-party system, appeasement politics by the west, nationalism, paranoia,


That describes America for the past three years, and pretty much the entire Cold War.

Worlds biggest parking lot would make a great tourist attraction. ;) make lots of revenue.


And there will be no problems with parking places as it is in every other attraction :)

The Chinese army currently teaches their troops the art of Sen Da, which is a rather practical martial art. Still, it has very little use in today's battlefield.

I live in Beijing, and I've seen the Chinese fleet bases at Qingdao and Tianjin. The Japanese Navy would have no problem containing China's, especially if the US lent some of their Los Angeles-class vessels to hunt down China's gigantic-but-ancient submarine fleet.

At least China wants to protect the lives of the foreigners if they are going to invade.

At least China wants to protect the lives of the foreigners if they are going to invade.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

You're funny!

The other question: will China stop after Taiwan or take Mongolia, Korea, Vietnam too? Actually, Taiwan left the Chinese Empire earlier than (Outer) Mongolia.

Will China take over Singapore? After all they speak Mandarin there. How about Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, where much of the business is in Chinese hands?

Heheheh. Lol. Don't think so. Hope not. :p

Plus, most Overseas Chinese like me in South East Asia hold no allegiance to China whatsoever. Instead of helping China, Hell if we had the chance, we'll exploit our own Chinese people from the Mainland for money. :D

Singaporeans mostly speak Hokkien btw. It's similar to Taiwan or the coastal city of it, Xiamen.

Taiwan and China will reunify sooner or later...get over it.

If they do. Hopefully it'll be like Hong Kong. 1 country 2 systems. Kinda thing.

What for do you need landing ships?

Pack some thousand soldiers into containers (the family of Tung Chee Hwa owns a shipping company), ship them to all Taiwanese harbours, unload the containers, secure the harbours and ship in the rest.

In the meantime tell North Korea to ruck up a ruckus so that the US transfers their ships there.

Use the 400-800 cruise missiles to take out the Internet, radio stations and command centers. Then arrest the Taiwanese Government.

Done in less than a week.


And who in China's government cares whether some ships with soldiers will sink?

If they do. Hopefully it'll be like Hong Kong. 1 country 2 systems. Kinda thing.

It will be like Hong Kong. That's the problem. "Hong Kong's people are not mature enough for democracy" as they say in Beijing.

Hong Kong has its current freedom until Beijing has Taiwan.

I have seen some interesting views here. I think that if China were to covertly ship troops in, the U.S. would strike back even deadlier because that would be seen as "dishonorable" or something. On the other hand, I do no think China could push over and into Taiwan because the Chinese fleets and air force are outdated.

Most of those "billion people" you guys are talking about probably don't want China to invade Taiwan. You can't really read representation in a dictator-run country, because the people don't have much say. China only has 1 million or so in their military. The rest 999,000,000 don't really fight very well, or they would obviously be in the military. I know the US wouldn't have 275,000,000 or so normal people fighting for them.

not really.. because if the US defaulted on those treasure bonds, not only would the US economy spiral into bankrupsy.. so would the Chinese economy... unlike with poor 3rd world nations

when the rich people can't pay their bills.. its not their problem, its the lenders problem..


There is a solution to this scenerio you just laid out. If China declared war on the US for example. The US government by law will sieze all enemy assets in the US. Which includes treasury bonds.

There is a solution to this scenerio you just laid out. If China declared war on the US for example. The US government by law will sieze all enemy assets in the US. Which includes treasury bonds.
The bonds are in the possession of China though.

What for do you need landing ships?

Pack some thousand soldiers into containers (the family of Tung Chee Hwa owns a shipping company), ship them to all Taiwanese harbours, unload the containers, secure the harbours and ship in the rest.

In the meantime tell North Korea to ruck up a ruckus so that the US transfers their ships there.

Use the 400-800 cruise missiles to take out the Internet, radio stations and command centers. Then arrest the Taiwanese Government.

Done in less than a week.


And who in China's government cares whether some ships with soldiers will sink?


An EMP bomb from Taiwan over Chinese territory will knock out the vast majority of electronics in China mainland. Hence creating a massive internal problem. No power, no running water, no phones, tv etc etc. This could take 15 minutes from Taiwan to mainland China airspace.

A Big enough EMP(Electro Magnetic Pulse) Nuclear bomb exploded over a country will fry all electronics in said country that isnt shielded.

The bonds are in the possession of China though.

Its just paper. The real bonds are in the US. This could easily happen. They did it to Iraq and other countries we dont like at the time.

Its just paper. The real bonds are in the US. This could easily happen. They did it to Iraq and other countries we dont like at the time.
The assets seized from Iraq, Iran, and other nations during both war and peacetime were not bonds though. They consisted of various investments and bank assets that do not have implications for American credit. If we refuse to honor bonds that would be equivalent to defaulting on a loan, and inflation would rise dramatically, since banks will see that the US government's financial obligations are not trustworthy, and banks would be willing to lend to the government only at higher interest rates.

The assets seized from Iraq, Iran, and other nations during both war and peacetime were not bonds though. They consisted of various investments and bank assets that do not have implications for American credit. If we refuse to honor bonds that would be equivalent to defaulting on a loan, and inflation would rise dramatically, since banks will see that the US government's financial obligations are not trustworthy, and banks would be willing to lend to the government only at higher interest rates.

I see the point your trying to make. There are end runs around this to provide the same effect essentially. You could "Freeze" them until the conflict is over. You could also declare them property of the Republic of China as repparations for war damages. There is plenty of things we could do to mitigate any problems from taking them. China does not have the US over a barrel like some might like to think.

An EMP bomb from Taiwan over Chinese territory will knock out the vast majority of electronics in China mainland. Hence creating a massive internal problem. No power, no running water, no phones, tv etc etc. This could take 15 minutes from Taiwan to mainland China airspace.

A Big enough EMP(Electro Magnetic Pulse) Nuclear bomb exploded over a country will fry all electronics in said country that isnt shielded.

EMP devices can be carried in a backpack and don't need nuclear bombs.

So, they could be used by the first landing "tourists" in Taiwan before they can even use the phone to order any counter attack.

And China probably doesn't use electronics to control the water supply. They have 500 Million people to carry water buckets.

China could build a bridge out of dead soldiers bodies of their own soldiers and march straight into Taiwan!

I've heard China are building their navy up...

If China did invade Taiwan in force, I don't think the US will intervene....shout alot maybe, but not militarily, they won't see it as worth it.

I've heard China are building their navy up...

If China did invade Taiwan in force, I don't think the US will intervene....shout alot maybe, but not militarily, they won't see it as worth it.

I beg to differ. For the United States, one of the few real bartering chips we hold over China's head is that of Taiwan. Taiwan is one of our guarantees.

If war starts, we'd park the 7th fleet in between China and Taiwan. Furthermore, China's naval "build-up" mostly consists of buying a few outdated destroyers and frigates. They have the hull of a USSR-era aircraft carrier, but it is in no way operational. Their patrol boats and fast-attack ships would not serve very much use against a CVBG. Furthermore, China lacks an advanced airforce. They still fly MiG-17s from several airbases. China lacks the logistics for an operation of that scale, and without an advanced airforce, they have no chance of taking out the 7th Fleet with anything other than nuclear weapons...which would be a big mistake.

Taiwan currently possesses the ability to swat down the Chinese Airforce from the air, sea, and ground. With the United States preventing amphibious operations, Taiwan is essentially immune. A Pacific Coalition (specifically Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, Thailand, and Australia) could also do the job.

I beg to differ. For the United States, one of the few real bartering chips we hold over China's head is that of Taiwan. Taiwan is one of our guarantees.


Guarantees of what exactly?


If war starts, we'd park the 7th fleet in between China and Taiwan. Furthermore, China's naval "build-up" mostly consists of buying a few outdated destroyers and frigates. They have the hull of a USSR-era aircraft carrier, but it is in no way operational. Their patrol boats and fast-attack ships would not serve very much use against a CVBG. Furthermore, China lacks an advanced airforce. They still fly MiG-17s from several airbases. China lacks the logistics for an operation of that scale, and without an advanced airforce, they have no chance of taking out the 7th Fleet with anything other than nuclear weapons...which would be a big mistake.


Er you underestimate China naval programme....and their determination.

Their economy, a percentage used into their military spending, will make it quite the military superpower in a few years.



Taiwan currently possesses the ability to swat down the Chinese Airforce from the air, sea, and ground. With the United States preventing amphibious operations, Taiwan is essentially immune. A Pacific Coalition (specifically Japan, South Korea, Phillipines, Thailand, and Australia) could also do the job.

China have now caught up with Taiwan in the military stakes. Why do you think the US is shitting itself that the EU wants to sell arms to China?

The Pacific coalition, nice in theory, world war in practice, and thus probably unlikely.

There are elements of both the above posts which are correct. The US would, I think, park the 7th fleet in the Taiwan Straits if China got beligerent, but the Chinese military would not go down easily. They have Mig-29s, and are buying more advanced planes all the time from Russia. The Russian and Chinese militaries are planning joint excercises and quite possibly would be allies in such an action, leaving the US with Japan and Australia as nearby allies. I think such an invasion could spark the next world war.

Russia wouldnt be foolish enough to join China in a war like that. They simply couldnt afford the consequences. It would destroy Russia politically, socially and economically. There is no benefits for Russia to join it. Russia is an opportunist when it comes to wars. If something doesnt come Russia's way. Then they wont do it.

EMP devices can be carried in a backpack and don't need nuclear bombs.

So, they could be used by the first landing "tourists" in Taiwan before they can even use the phone to order any counter attack.

And China probably doesn't use electronics to control the water supply. They have 500 Million people to carry water buckets.


Every country uses electric pumps to pump there water. The EMP nuke I'm talking about does require it to be a nuke to get such a large effect. The US could launch it over China to. Even if Taiwan is unable to take such action. Launch it from a sub off coast of Tawain. They wouldnt know where it came from. I think people are giving to much credit for Chinese population. 500 million people can be vaporized with a handful of nukes. Who says Taiwan doesnt have a few from there "friends".

There are elements of both the above posts which are correct. The US would, I think, park the 7th fleet in the Taiwan Straits if China got beligerent, but the Chinese military would not go down easily. They have Mig-29s, and are buying more advanced planes all the time from Russia. The Russian and Chinese militaries are planning joint excercises and quite possibly would be allies in such an action, leaving the US with Japan and Australia as nearby allies. I think such an invasion could spark the next world war.

I suspect that the US wouldn't intervene - because they don't want a nuclear war.

In addition, the US military are rather thinly spread at the moment.

edit: It's all about how china perceive how the US would respond