NationStates Jolt Archive

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) -- Pakistan's highest Islamic court has reinstated the convictions of five men sentenced to death for raping a woman on orders from a village council, following a firestorm of criticism after a lower tribunal ordered the men freed.

The decision by the Federal Shariat Court was yet another twist in the case of Mukhtar Mai, a 33-year-old woman who said she was raped in June 2002 after elders in her village ordered the attack as punishment for her brother's alleged illicit affair with a woman from another family.

"We welcome the decision, and we know our case is strong," said Ramzan Khalid Joya, Mai's lawyer.

An attorney for the men, Mohammed Yaqub, said he had not yet had time to study the decision and had no comment.

Six men, including village elder Faiz Mastoi, were sentenced to death in August 2002, but on March 3 the sentences of five of them were overturned.

The sixth man had his death sentence reduced to life in prison.

Human rights groups in Pakistan and around the world denounced the ruling, and thousands of Pakistani women rallied in Multan earlier this week demanding justice and protection for Mai, who said she fears the men would seek revenge if released.

The Canadian High Commissioner on Tuesday visited Mai in Meerwala, a village about 565 kilometers (350 miles) southwest of the capital, Islamabad, to pledge money for a school she runs.

In its decision Friday, the Federal Shariat Court ruled on technical grounds that the Multan tribunal had no powers to hear the case. It said it alone had the power to rule on appeals in rape cases.

The Shariat Court works separately from the normal legal system but has the power to overturn decisions involving Islamic law, such as in instances of rape, adultery and some cases of murder.

The court indicated it would hear the men's appeal, but did not say when.

All six men remain in jail.

Once the Federal Shariat Court rules, a final appeal from either side could only be heard by a special Shariat Branch of Pakistan's Supreme Court, the highest court in the nation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/03/11/pakistan.rape.ap/index.html

***

The decision to set them free by the lower court got alot of attention including a few "LETS NUKE THE WHOLE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST" replies. When was the last time you heard about rapists being put to death in "first world" countries where all they normally get is a few years in prision?

Swallow that pill, before you choke on it.

Death for raping?

Death for raping?

If its their law, who am I to criticize.

Rape is about the most violent, horrible thing you can ever do to another human being, with the exception of murder.

When you rape someone, you are basically saying they are a thing to be used, like property.

It makes me sick the Western Culture can just write is off as a lesser crime.

They shouldn't be ut to death for it. Life sentence would be sufficient.

They shouldn't be ut to death for it. Life sentence would be sufficient.

If that is Pakistani law, who are you to criticize?

Good, Rapists should be killed.

Nope, two wrongs still don't make a right.

I am anti-death penalty, but this issue really tests that stance. It's a matter of principle: On one side, giving the state the power to issue death sentences is dangerous, on the other, these guys do deserve it.

Perhaps they should instead have an amputation in a sensitive place, to prevent repetition.

OceanDrive: As long as it's not Jesussaves or VoteEarly...

Eh, I was expecting more flames. :D

Originally these men were going to be set free, but that was overturned.

The decision to set them free was the topic of a very anti-middle east thread.


Which is why I posted the follow up.

If that is Pakistani law, who are you to criticize?

Oh, please. Stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where. The death penalty is just as stupid in Japan or the US as it is in Pakistan.

If it were Pakistani law to mince 10 month old babies and feed them to tigers, would you still be asking your silly question when somebody criticised that?

If that is Pakistani law, who are you to criticize?

we can ...Comment, give opinion about, their Law.

But Its their Rigth to choose thier Laws.

Like it was (still is) for the Singapore Vandalism Laws.

So we should just stick with the five year sentances for rape?

You wouldn't be saying that if your mother or sister were a victim.

If that is Pakistani law, who are you to criticize?


Taking that view, who is anyone to have any sort of reply to this thread whatsoever? (or almost any thread on NS)
Surely we're entitled to our opinions?
Personally i don't believe in the death penalty, but think it's preferable to letting them go free.

Oh, please. Stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where. The death penalty is just as stupid in Japan or the US as it is in Pakistan.

Who are you to criticize another country's law?

If it were Pakistani law to mince 10 month old babies and feed them to tigers, would you still be asking your silly question when somebody criticised that?

If that is their law, though I may not agree with it, I would have to accept it. We have no right to criticize another nation's laws.

we can ...Comment, give opinion about, their Law.

But Its their Rigth to choose thier Laws.

Like it was (still is) for the Singapore Vandalism Laws.

Make comments and opinions yes but if that is their law, then that is their law. There are plenty of laws that I don't agree with that make our news from other nations but if that is the law in their country, then I have no room to criticize.

Taking that view, who is anyone to have any sort of reply to this thread whatsoever? (or almost any thread on NS)
Surely we're entitled to our opinions?
Personally i don't believe in the death penalty, but think it's preferable to letting them go free.

No problem with opinions but criticizing another nation's law is arrogant.

Oh, please. Stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where. The death penalty is just as stupid in Japan or the US as it is in Pakistan.95% of criminal laws are quite fair.

Taxation Laws are stupid...they were written by Chimps with Typewriters :D

Who are you to criticize another country's law?

I am me. And I can criticise wrong-doing wherever it happens, however legal it may be.

If that is their law, though I may not agree with it, I would have to accept it. We have no right to criticize another nation's laws.

Yes, "we" do. "We" have all the right "we" need.

... then I have no room to criticize.
Dude, this is the Internet, there is room for everything...all you wildest fantasies...anything...rite or wrong.

Internet: The Land of the Free.

I am me. And I can criticise wrong-doing wherever it happens, however legal it may be.

No you don't have the right to criticize ANY nation's laws. It shows arrogance.

Yes, "we" do. "We" have all the right "we" need.

Opinions yes, criticize? no.

95% of criminal laws are quite fair.

I don't agree.

Taxation Laws are stupid...they were written by Chimps with Typewriters :D

Depends on the particular law.

No problem with opinions but criticizing another nation's law is arrogant.

From my reading of the posts you were objecting to, all they were doing was stating their opinion on the matter :P
I'm geniunely interested, being as you felt compelled to pick those posters up, as to where you draw the line. Say, with these examples:

'i dont believe in the death penalty'
'i dont believe pakistan should have the death penalty'
'pakistan is stupid for having the death penalty'

Persoanlly i see no problem with your opinion - whether it concerns someone else's law or not - as long as you're not being offensive. Disagreeing with someone's opinion isn't being arrogant, is it?

Perhaps they should instead have an amputation in a sensitive place, to prevent repetition.

Yeah, rapists should at least be castrated.

However, the woman was fearinf revenge from the men if they're released. Life in prison would be best, I think.

Again??
First it was death, then 5 freed one death, now death again. Sheesh. Make up your mind Pakistan.

Although I disagree rape should be death, maybe imprisonment for life. But looking at the case, it's horribly horribly stupid in the first place.

It's the laws we have in our countries that give us the right to speak out against other country's laws. If we have no right to criticize then that means we have no right to praise another country's laws either.

We can criticize other country's laws all we like. I think just about all of us criticized the oppressive laws of the Taliban (who were the ruling party of another country). And if you did not criticize the laws forcing women to be nothing more than property there to be degraded then shame on you.....

Rape is about the most violent, horrible thing you can ever do to another human being, with the exception of murder.

When you rape someone, you are basically saying they are a thing to be used, like property.

It makes me sick the Western Culture can just write is off as a lesser crime.

Make sure that you're not against the death penalty before you make that statement.

I'm all for hanging people who commit any Part 1 felony - murder (1st and 2nd degree), rape (any kind), robbery (armed or strongarm), and aggravated assault.

First offense is the last time we have to deal with the perp.

There is the context to consider here as well.

The tribal council IS the local law. The council condoned and ordered the rape of an innocent person because her BROTHER was allegedly involved in an affair.

The original court decision, while probably overly harsh, was undoubtedly a statement that "We do NOT condone rape of innocents as a proper punishment for a third party."

The overturning of the original court decision was, basically, "Tough shit, it's traditional, so fuck off." And letting five of the six men who raped her go free was pretty much a death sentence for the victim.

The fact that they have been re-sentenced would indicate to me that the government intends to impress upon the local tribal councils that such barbarism, while traditional, will no longer be tolerated, and that Mai is NOT to be further harmed.

I find it sad that people can sit here and call the death sentence barbaric, but not criticize the law which says "Send Six Men to Rape the Sister of Someone We Don't Like."

NOTE: THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT STAND AS CONDONING THE DEATH PENALTY.

I agree Katganistan.

I'm hoping this sends a messege to those idiots that condone this type of thing. To bad they can't be brought up on charges too.

I have no problem with them being sentenced to death for rape.

I am me. And I can criticise wrong-doing wherever it happens, however legal it may be.



Yes, "we" do. "We" have all the right "we" need.

Sounds good to me, then the strongest people and the strongest nations can do as they please because they have "have all the right we need". I dont think you are going to agree with my logical expansion of your statements though.

It is good that a more secular court ruled against the faith-based intiatives of the men.

If its their law, who am I to criticize.
You and I have every right to criticise. The death penalty is an evil, barbaric practice that gives the state too much power, and brings it down to the moral level of a murderer.

Sounds good to me, then the strongest people and the strongest nations can do as they please because they have "have all the right we need". I dont think you are going to agree with my logical expansion of your statements though.

Talk about taking things aout of context. Criticism != war or invasion or whatever. Your "logical" expansion is a fallacy.

Yeah, rapists should at least be castrated.

However, the woman was fearinf revenge from the men if they're released. Life in prison would be best, I think.

It is my understanding that it was court ordered rape in response to her brother's supposed affair. It isnt like they were out on a saturday night and decided to have a party with an unwilling person. They were fulfilling a court ordered legal function. I am sure they took no pleasure in it and just felt that they were serving the needs of justice.

Yeah right!!!! Sometimes we should SHOULD judge people/cultures/countries/religions. And frankly, there are some things that are good and evil in the world.

A culture/religion where the law says it is okay for 6 men to gang rape a woman because her brother supposedly had an affair with someone else is just fucking wrong. I am disgusted with this form of Islam.

I read another story a while back(Ill see if I can find a link) where the court ordered the rape of 2 underage girls. An older guy wanted them and they refused so he sent his sister to their brothers house and claimed rape/affair. In compensaton, the court ordered that he could rape the guy's two younger sisters. Yeah, good fucking religion. Makes you wonder if we really are in the modern age(you know, cars, planes, information, human rights ect)

My driver(well, not current but the one back home ) is muslim. Nice enough guy and all. Let me tell you a story about him and his daughters(no sons, only 3 daughters). One of them was married to a guy that routinely beat the shit out of her. When I say beat, I dont mean smacked around a little bit(like the other two), I mean he repeatedly put her in the hospital. She ran away one time back to her parents house. Her father, my grandfather's driver made her go back to her husband. Said it would be a disgrace or some other thing. The guy was actually complaining that she had embarressed him so much by running home. Well, a few months later she was dead. Killed by her husband(actually, it might have been suicide). I never met her, but she must have been a young girl. Couldnt even run to her parents to save her life. This guy isnt even a religious muslim, he smokes and drinks. I doubt he prays(never seen him do it).

A blight on the modern world I say. The muslims I know in America are pretty cool(1 uncle and 1 really close friends and his younger cousins). But they all view their religion as just a small part of their lives. The Uncle is married to a German lady and she basically runs his life, my good buddy is married to a Muslim and she basically runs his life(younger cousins arent married).

But the Muslims in the poorer parts of the world are like a disease. Seriously, I realize that extremists of any religion are nuts but what is the deal with Muslims? Even many of the non religious muslims are fucking nuts, at least with Christians/Jews/Hindus I only have to worry about the hardcore types.

...

...

Shouldn't they be arresting the psychotic assholes who ORDERED the rape?

Oh, please. Stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where. The death penalty is just as stupid in Japan or the US as it is in Pakistan.

If it were Pakistani law to mince 10 month old babies and feed them to tigers, would you still be asking your silly question when somebody criticised that?

Bravo

if only the United States viewed rape as seriously. i am constantly sickened by the fact that having a large bag of coke will get you more prison time than rape. however, a death sentence is far too merciful...in my opinion, the sentence for rape should be life without any possibility of paroll, and the rapist should spend that time in hard labor with all of their wages being donated to organizations to help the survivors of rape. all rapists should be sent to the same camp, and there should be no effort made to prevent them from brutalizing each other as much as they please. a rapist should be allowed to petition for execution once each year, but they should only be granted the gift of a quick death if they have shown exemplary behavior for many years.

if only the United States viewed rape as seriously. i am constantly sickened by the fact that having a large bag of coke will get you more prison time than rape. however, a death sentence is far too merciful...in my opinion, the sentence for rape should be life without any possibility of paroll, and the rapist should spend that time in hard labor with all of their wages being donated to organizations to help the survivors of rape. all rapists should be sent to the same camp, and there should be no effort made to prevent them from brutalizing each other as much as they please. a rapist should be allowed to petition for execution once each year, but they should only be granted the gift of a quick death if they have shown exemplary behavior for many years.
*Starts screaming hysterically* YOU READ MY MIND! GET OUT OF MY HEAD! GET OUT!

Seriously, I was about to say just that, minus the last part, which I bolded cuz I'm too lazy to restate half a sentence. ;)

if only the United States viewed rape as seriously. i am constantly sickened by the fact that having a large bag of coke will get you more prison time than rape. however, a death sentence is far too merciful...in my opinion, the sentence for rape should be life without any possibility of paroll, and the rapist should spend that time in hard labor with all of their wages being donated to organizations to help the survivors of rape. all rapists should be sent to the same camp, and there should be no effort made to prevent them from brutalizing each other as much as they please. a rapist should be allowed to petition for execution once each year, but they should only be granted the gift of a quick death if they have shown exemplary behavior for many years.


You are sick. Rapists, murders and repeat violent offenders are akin akin to a disease on our gene pool. They should be put down like the rabid animals they are. We should not take pleasure in their humiliation or suffering, anymore than we would in torturing a rabid dog.

Now that I have sad that, I can gleefully agree with you that death or life life inprisonment is too good for these people. They should be be made to suffer everyday of their waking lives as they made their victims suffer. Perhaps if punishment was met out in kind, there would be less crime.

It is my understanding that it was court ordered rape in response to her brother's supposed affair. It isnt like they were out on a saturday night and decided to have a party with an unwilling person. They were fulfilling a court ordered legal function. I am sure they took no pleasure in it and just felt that they were serving the needs of justice.

Yeah right!!!! Sometimes we should SHOULD judge people/cultures/countries/religions. And frankly, there are some things that are good and evil in the world.

A culture/religion where the law says it is okay for 6 men to gang rape a woman because her brother supposedly had an affair with someone else is just fucking wrong. I am disgusted with this form of Islam.

I read another story a while back(Ill see if I can find a link) where the court ordered the rape of 2 underage girls. An older guy wanted them and they refused so he sent his sister to their brothers house and claimed rape/affair. In compensaton, the court ordered that he could rape the guy's two younger sisters. Yeah, good fucking religion. Makes you wonder if we really are in the modern age(you know, cars, planes, information, human rights ect)

My driver(well, not current but the one back home ) is muslim. Nice enough guy and all. Let me tell you a story about him and his daughters(no sons, only 3 daughters). One of them was married to a guy that routinely beat the shit out of her. When I say beat, I dont mean smacked around a little bit(like the other two), I mean he repeatedly put her in the hospital. She ran away one time back to her parents house. Her father, my grandfather's driver made her go back to her husband. Said it would be a disgrace or some other thing. The guy was actually complaining that she had embarressed him so much by running home. Well, a few months later she was dead. Killed by her husband(actually, it might have been suicide). I never met her, but she must have been a young girl. Couldnt even run to her parents to save her life. This guy isnt even a religious muslim, he smokes and drinks. I doubt he prays(never seen him do it).

A blight on the modern world I say. The muslims I know in America are pretty cool(1 uncle and 1 really close friends and his younger cousins). But they all view their religion as just a small part of their lives. The Uncle is married to a German lady and she basically runs his life, my good buddy is married to a Muslim and she basically runs his life(younger cousins arent married).

But the Muslims in the poorer parts of the world are like a disease. Seriously, I realize that extremists of any religion are nuts but what is the deal with Muslims? Even many of the non religious muslims are fucking nuts, at least with Christians/Jews/Hindus I only have to worry about the hardcore types.


The problem isn't really the religion. If it was then we'd punish adultery by stoning people to death here and Muslims here would be just as crazy as those in Nigeria and Pakistan.

The problem is culture, and religion is almost always subservient to culture and cluture only very slowly yeilds to environment (if you buy into environmental determinism that is).

It wasn't all that long ago, in historical terms, that we considered it a man's private business if he wanted to beat his wife, and the women's rights movement suffered tremendous Biblical resistence. If I'm not mistaken the Bible has rules for how you're supposed to beat your wife when you choose to do so.

The problem isn't really the religion. If it was then we'd punish adultery by stoning people to death here and Muslims here would be just as crazy as those in Nigeria and Pakistan.

The problem is culture, and religion is almost always subservient to culture and cluture only very slowly yeilds to environment (if you buy into environmental determinism that is).

It wasn't all that long ago, in historical terms, that we considered it a man's private business if he wanted to beat his wife, and the women's rights movement suffered tremendous Biblical resistence. If I'm not mistaken the Bible has rules for how you're supposed to beat your wife when you choose to do so.

Well, I can agree with that. So the culture is fucked up. makes no differance to me whether you call it culture or religion.

I am for hands off type of govt, but this sort of thing makes me want to stamp it out. I realize that it is wrong, but it just makes me want to crush this sort of thinking. How can a "court" order the RAPE of someone not even involved in the supposed "crime" ?

It makes me sick, I cant even begin to understand. I realize its a a result of my moral inflexabilty but I wish I could EXTERMINATE these people.

I bolded because I know know that it is easy to say but I doubt I could justify such actions(though I think it is deserved).

Imagine a world with where Islam never existed. How much better off would we be.... well, we would have figured out ZERO eventually

I kind of expected Pakistan to take an 'eye for an eye' aproach to the law. They should all be raped.

You are sick. Rapists, murders and repeat violent offenders are akin akin to a disease on our gene pool. They should be put down like the rabid animals they are. We should not take pleasure in their humiliation or suffering, anymore than we would in torturing a rabid dog.

Now that I have sad that, I can gleefully agree with you that death or life life inprisonment is too good for these people. They should be be made to suffer everyday of their waking lives as they made their victims suffer. Perhaps if punishment was met out in kind, there would be less crime.

rapists take pleasure in totally destroying the lives of the people they attacve. we're talking trauma for the rest of a human being's life here. why should they get off so lightly with bed and board and the chance to study for their college degree and an accountancy course and a gymnasium on site for that horrific thing that they have done when there is some one out there who is serving a life sentence, coming to terms with what that person took from them, learning to trust people again, having to recover from physical and mental scars. they don't get their accomodation paid while they're to distressed to show up at work. they don't get their life and sanity back when they guy goes to prison.

of course that's if they do get locked up. in the uk 2% of rape trials end in conviction.

dp

It is my understanding that it was court ordered rape in response to her brother's supposed affair. It isnt like they were out on a saturday night and decided to have a party with an unwilling person. They were fulfilling a court ordered legal function. I am sure they took no pleasure in it and just felt that they were serving the needs of justice.

Yeah right!!!! Sometimes we should SHOULD judge people/cultures/countries/religions. And frankly, there are some things that are good and evil in the world.

A culture/religion where the law says it is okay for 6 men to gang rape a woman because her brother supposedly had an affair with someone else is just fucking wrong. I am disgusted with this form of Islam.

I read another story a while back(Ill see if I can find a link) where the court ordered the rape of 2 underage girls. An older guy wanted them and they refused so he sent his sister to their brothers house and claimed rape/affair. In compensaton, the court ordered that he could rape the guy's two younger sisters. Yeah, good fucking religion. Makes you wonder if we really are in the modern age(you know, cars, planes, information, human rights ect)

My driver(well, not current but the one back home ) is muslim. Nice enough guy and all. Let me tell you a story about him and his daughters(no sons, only 3 daughters). One of them was married to a guy that routinely beat the shit out of her. When I say beat, I dont mean smacked around a little bit(like the other two), I mean he repeatedly put her in the hospital. She ran away one time back to her parents house. Her father, my grandfather's driver made her go back to her husband. Said it would be a disgrace or some other thing. The guy was actually complaining that she had embarressed him so much by running home. Well, a few months later she was dead. Killed by her husband(actually, it might have been suicide). I never met her, but she must have been a young girl. Couldnt even run to her parents to save her life. This guy isnt even a religious muslim, he smokes and drinks. I doubt he prays(never seen him do it).

A blight on the modern world I say. The muslims I know in America are pretty cool(1 uncle and 1 really close friends and his younger cousins). But they all view their religion as just a small part of their lives. The Uncle is married to a German lady and she basically runs his life, my good buddy is married to a Muslim and she basically runs his life(younger cousins arent married).

But the Muslims in the poorer parts of the world are like a disease. Seriously, I realize that extremists of any religion are nuts but what is the deal with Muslims? Even many of the non religious muslims are fucking nuts, at least with Christians/Jews/Hindus I only have to worry about the hardcore types.

The tribal elder who called for the rape is among the ones to be executed, the islamic faith is not at fault here.

Christianity went through the same kind of growing pains, the Salem Witch Trials, Stoning of those who have commited adultry, torture of anyone who commits even the slightest taboo. The tribal ordered rape was not condone by the Pakistani level courts, only the local justice system.

Calling for the destruction of an entire religion is just ignorant, unless, of course you want to call an end to all organized religion, then I'm behind you 100%.

If its their law, who am I to criticize.
In essence...I still agree with Corneliu.

Their Country, Their people, Their Laws, Their Customs.

There is the context to consider here as well.

The tribal council IS the local law. The council condoned and ordered the rape of an innocent person because her BROTHER was allegedly involved in an affair.

The original court decision, while probably overly harsh, was undoubtedly a statement that "We do NOT condone rape of innocents as a proper punishment for a third party."

The overturning of the original court decision was, basically, "Tough shit, it's traditional, so fuck off." And letting five of the six men who raped her go free was pretty much a death sentence for the victim.

The fact that they have been re-sentenced would indicate to me that the government intends to impress upon the local tribal councils that such barbarism, while traditional, will no longer be tolerated, and that Mai is NOT to be further harmed.

I find it sad that people can sit here and call the death sentence barbaric, but not criticize the law which says "Send Six Men to Rape the Sister of Someone We Don't Like."

NOTE: THIS STATEMENT DOES NOT STAND AS CONDONING THE DEATH PENALTY.

THANK YOU FOR THE VOICE OF REASON AND DECENCY, Katganistan!

Also, I will choose to ignore some of the bloodthirsty and inhumane comments on the topic, but wish to advise those who advocate death as a penalty for rape in the US that there is a little history to the matter.

Death used to be a common penalty for rape, but it was next to impossible to get a jury to find a man guilty of rape when they knew he could be sentenced to death. (Unless, of course, he was a black man accused of raping a white woman.) Rape-crisis advocated lobbied to reduce the penalties for rape so that rapists could be convicted and punished. Unfortunately, it is still difficult to convict rapists, but it has improved.

The only reason I SUPPORTED the US invasion of Afghanistan was because of the brutality to women that was happening there, because of the government. I very rarely agree with the US government, but this is one of the few times. I believe rape and torture are the worst crimes possible, even worse than MURDER. Rape and torture victims have to live with what happened to them every single day of their life. I'd push for some crazy punushment, except that I don't think money should be wasted on these creeps. UNFORTUNATELY, in most cases, there is a possibility of a setup, so I think the death sentence should only be in force for serial rapists and torturers. Because then there is no doubt. As for these guys, its pretty clear cut what happened, so I have no problem with the death sentence, even though this MAY be their only crime.

I vehemently disagree with the "rape is worse than death" thing. NOTHING exceeds death as the worst. Thus, I am anti-death penalty.

I vehemently disagree with the "rape is worse than death" thing. NOTHING exceeds death as the worst. Thus, I am anti-death penalty.
Which would you prefer, torture or death?

Which would you prefer, torture or death?
Neither.

The tribal elder who called for the rape is among the ones to be executed, the islamic faith is not at fault here.

Christianity went through the same kind of growing pains, the Salem Witch Trials, Stoning of those who have commited adultry, torture of anyone who commits even the slightest taboo. The tribal ordered rape was not condone by the Pakistani level courts, only the local justice system.

Calling for the destruction of an entire religion is just ignorant, unless, of course you want to call an end to all organized religion, then I'm behind you 100%.

1) I am agnostic though I believe that religion has a place in society(though I dont agree with it)

2) I have no problem with Christian(or whatever) services in the US, I believe that the founding fathers were against a STATE sponsered religion, not the state sponsering religions. (my parents are hindu and buddist btw)

3) I think that Islam really fucking sucks. I mean, Hinduism in the more backward areas is pretty bad, but the combination of Islam and poverty/lack of education is just a fucking nightmare. You have no idea of the "fervor". Wifes show their faith to their husbands by pushing knifes through their cheeks(not just an islam thing, but a reflection of poverty and religion)(My Aunts cook did that she seemed like a normal person too).I dont know if she was hindu or muslim.

Come to India, or Pakistan or god forbid Indonesia and you will see. Not even God could help you if you ended up in Saudia Arabia though. Its another world if you arent rich or connected. In my eyes, if there was a thing called "evil" it would be called Islam.

Neither.
No seriously, pick one. I'd really like to know your answer.

my parents are hindu and buddist...
if there was a thing called "evil" it would be called Islam.
Why is Hinduism or Buddism better than Islam?

The only reason I SUPPORTED the US invasion of Afghanistan was because of the brutality to women that was happening there, because of the government...
UNFORTUNATELY, in most cases, there is a possibility of a setup,
so I think the death sentence should only be in force for serial rapists and torturers. Because then there is no doubt. As for these guys, its pretty clear cut what happened...
what do you mean "possibility of a setup" ?

No seriously, pick one. I'd really like to know your answer.
I am serious. Torture and death are both uber-bad, but death is worse--if you choose death, then you'll never get that good feeling one gets when they're finally rescued from the torturer. I still choose neither, however.

I have the perfect punishment for rape:

The first offence their right testicle is removed, the second offence... Well, there will not be a second offence.

Presumably the purpose of punishment is to prevent recurrence of the unwanted behavior, and this punishment do well in that regard. Moreover, if it turns out that the man was innocent then you really haven't done something SO terrible to him; many people live normal lives with only one ball (Hitler comes to mind, but I suppose that's a bad example).

The only problem is that this punishment has a definite bias... It's useless against women.

Why is Hinduism or Buddism better than Islam?


Better? that really isnt a good way to put it. Buddism and poverty is no problem. Hinduism and poverty can be pretty bad. Islam and poverty is a fucking nightmare. If you dont know what I am talking about then you should spend some time in places where this is an issue.

Ive seen your other posts, and there is idealism and there is reality. You clearly have experience with the one, do you have the same with the other?

It's the lack of education and poverty, NOT the religion, you can't tell me that if everyone over there were Christians the same thing still wouldn't be happening now can you?

I suggest you read up on the early colonization of the America and the Crusades. No organized faith is without blood on it's hands, with the exception of Buddhism.

Read the Qu'ran, it read's like the freaking bible for humanity's sake. :/

The tribal council IS the local law. The council condoned and ordered the rape of an innocent person because her BROTHER was allegedly involved in an affair.

that's the 'religion of peace' for ya...

What the hell is wrong with you guys? Honestly?

Your so pro-Christian it isn't even funny, why don't you try to convert everybody, kill anyone who dosen't believe in the same thing as you, take over the government, run the courts according to the bible, and declare yourselves the official representitives of God.

OH WAIT, THATS WHAT THE EVANGICAL CHRISTIANS ARE TRYING TO DO, TURN AMERICA INTO A PLACE LIKE SAUDI ARABIA OR PAKISTAN, AND WE, THE BRAVE ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS, CONTINUE TO HOLD YOU BACK FROM TURNING AMERICA INTO THE SAME THIRD WORLD HELL WHOLE YOU PREACH AGAINST.

...

What the hell is wrong with you guys? Honestly?

Your so pro-Christian it isn't even funny, why don't you try to convert everybody, kill anyone who dosen't believe in the same thing as you, take over the government, run the courts according to the bible, and declare yourselves the official representitives of God.

OH WAIT, THATS WHAT THE EVANGICAL CHRISTIANS ARE TRYING TO DO, TURN AMERICA INTO A PLACE LIKE SAUDI ARABIA OR PAKISTAN, AND WE, THE BRAVE ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS, CONTINUE TO HOLD YOU BACK FROM TURNING AMERICA INTO THE SAME THIRD WORLD HELL WHOLE YOU PREACH AGAINST.

Someone has alot of anger in him. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

Now seriously, you really do need to smell the fresh air. No one is trying to turn anything into a Christian Theocratic State.

I am serious. Torture and death are both uber-bad, but death is worse--if you choose death, then you'll never get that good feeling one gets when they're finally rescued from the torturer. I still choose neither, however.
And what happens if you're not rescued?

As a citizen of any country, you agree that you understand and are aware of simple criminal law. Whether it is moral or not, the men knew the punishment and are therefore subject to it.

If it were up to me, they'd be stripped of anything deeming them male (wink wink), and publically humiliated. Rape is a crime that has potential to hurt a victum for years after the initial incident.

Seriously, why do people continue to try to push their own religion or agendas on everyone else? Why must everyone who ever encounters someone with a different set of beliefs and customs dehumanize them?

Why can't, for one second, people realize that we are all human?

If we don't work together, we'll all be screwed in the end. Maybe it'll be a plague, the collapse of the world economy, or maybe a third world war.

Why must you continue to pass judgement?

What gives you the right? Your IQ? Your God?

What makes you think everyone is better then yourself.

Your real world experince? Are the rest of naive? All 4-5 billion of us?

And what happens if you're not rescued?
*sigh*

Then I'm screwed.

*sigh*

Then I'm screwed.

so if your screwed, torture or death?

*sigh*

Then I'm screwed.
And what would you prefer then?

Seriously, why do people continue to try to push their own religion or agendas on everyone else? Why must everyone who ever encounters someone with a different set of beliefs and customs dehumanize them?

Because they think that their religion is the correct religion.

Why can't, for one second, people realize that we are all human?

Because that would require humans to think. Your right though, we are all human.

If we don't work together, we'll all be screwed in the end. Maybe it'll be a plague, the collapse of the world economy, or maybe a third world war.

I agree whole heartedly.

Why must you continue to pass judgement?

Because it is in our nature to pass judgement.

What gives you the right? Your IQ? Your God?

No one, nope, nope.

What makes you think everyone is better then yourself.

I don't!

Your real world experince? Are the rest of naive? All 4-5 billion of us?

There's 6 billion of us.

While I am not sure about being put to death for rape.. I would say maybe having their parts removed or something humiliating, and of course jail time. That is one thing I dislike about my country though. Let's say there is a person who deals some Marijuana and there is a Rapist. They both go to Jail.. Rpist gets out within 1-5 years, and the drug dealer stays longer.

Sure, drugs are bad and all, but at least you have a choice in it. Some people just choose not to care about their brains and the rest of their body and do drugs (though that could lead to harm of others), but rape is someone directly harming someone, or even killing someone. Then after the deed is done, whoever was raped will NOT forget it.. I can like.. guarentee it!

It concerns me because I am a young woman, and statistically (Though of course they may be inaccurate) 1/4 women here at least get assaulted. ><

I am not sure how religion came into the thread really, but I don't think Islam has anything to do with it. It's HOW those certain people INTERPRET it. You can make any peaceful religion into something bad, like throwing acid on a lady. But some people actually have common sense and respect for all humans, no matter what religion.

Religion shouldn't drive anyone to ddo harm. That is the own person's personality doing that.
Bad people! ><

It concerns me because I am a young woman, and statistically (Though of course they may be inaccurate) 1/4 women here at least get assaulted. ><

1/4 women get Raped?

And what would you prefer then?
Please TPE, we are all very interested in your answer...

Please TPE, we are all very interested in your answer...
I fear I may accidentally curse myself if I did answer... :(

I fear I may accidentally curse myself if I did answer... :(
I'm sorry then :(

But I think we know the answer...

I'm sorry then :(

But I think we know the answer...
What do you think it is?