NationStates Jolt Archive

I was thinking about destiny the other day and a thought struck me. How can anything be truly random? Flipping a coin is seemingly random, however if you knew enough variables (air pressure, strength of flip ect ect) you should be able to predict what will happen. As for "random thought" this is formed by neurons in the brain sending electrical pulses, it isn't truly random as the neurons fire at a certain time (could someone tell me what makes the neurons fire, im not entirely sure) causing these thoughts to occur. If you think on an atomic level, is anything actualy acting randomly?

Is there such a thing as truly random? if not, then are we all trapped by 'destiny'?

Yes I was slightly drunk when I thought of this.

Yes. There is a such thing as destiny. This makes me recommend Macbeth to people. Great plot. :)

First, define "destiny".

No.

First, define "destiny".

That there is a preset way your life WILL go. That free choice is an illusion.

I hope not. I don't like the idea that all my decisions have been decided for me already.

I hope not. I don't like the idea that all my decisions have been decided for me already.

I feel that way too.

On a molecular level, things can be fairly random. Electrons have a "probibility cloud" about them (which means they could be anywhere in it at a given moment. If you get down the base of everything, I think that randomness is possible, but I do agree you can predict and analyze many things with a fair degree of accuracy. Although, some theories in quantum physics claim that simply measuring or observing to find this probability can in fact change the outcome. Just found that interesting.

Your life is determined 50% behaviour, 50% destiny. Destiny can be defined as the inevitable course of events that happen in the future, the overall circumstances or condition in life.

I feel that way too.

I always like to think that, no matter what other factors were present, that my own decision-making is primarily responsible for what occurs in my life, and, by extension of that, I am in control of my own life. The idea that my path has already been layed out for me and no matter how hard I struggle, I am doomed to that one, predetermined path is very disturbing. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that thought.

On a molecular level, things can be fairly random. Electrons have a "probibility cloud" about them (which means they could be anywhere in it at a given moment. If you get down the base of everything, I think that randomness is possible, but I do agree you can predict and analyze many things with a fair degree of accuracy. Although, some theories in quantum physics claim that simply measuring or observing to find this probability can in fact change the outcome. Just found that interesting.

What I was thinking though is that although they have a probibility cloud they have to be somewhere, maybe they always are somewhere, and we just cant measure that yet.

Your life is determined 50% behaviour, 50% destiny. Destiny can be defined as the inevitable course of events that happen in the future, the overall circumstances or condition in life.

But how much of your behaviour is determined by destiny?

I've always taken a "compatibilist" point of view.

Basically, they believe that everything is determined. However, you have free will. Free-willed actions are actions that are unrestricted. Meaning, if a large ball is flying towards your face, you will (hopefully) move. However, you open the fridge because you are thirsty and you can choose a soda or a water.

I probably didn't do a good job explaining all of this as it is very early in the morning, but I hope you get my point.

I've always taken a "compatibilist" point of view.

Basically, they believe that everything is determined. However, you have free will. Free-willed actions are actions that are unrestricted. Meaning, if a large ball is flying towards your face, you will (hopefully) move. However, you open the fridge because you are thirsty and you can choose a soda or a water.

I probably didn't do a good job explaining all of this as it is very early in the morning, but I hope you get my point.

The idea that free will is factored into predetermination?

The idea that my path has already been layed out for me and no matter how hard I struggle, I am doomed to that one, predetermined path is very disturbing. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with that thought.
The thing there, is that you can't realkly be struggling against it if it is the case. You can't make the decision to struggle against it, becuase all your decisions are already laid out.

Of course, I might be talking bullshit, because I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it seems to make sense to me.

The thing there, is that you can't realkly be struggling against it if it is the case. You can't make the decision to struggle against it, becuase all your decisions are already laid out.

Of course, I might be talking bullshit, because I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it seems to make sense to me.

Perhaps "struggle" was the wrong word. I don't like the idea that I have no control over the events of my life. Some things happen that I may not like to occur in my life. If I have free will, and said things occur, then it is my own fault somewhat. If I have no free will, then said things occur no matter how much I may not want them to.

When a person is born, they already have predetermined conditions. These conditions don't necessarily reflect the overall result of their life, but it does have a huge affect on the course of events throughout their life.

People who are born healthy and normal, generally don't understand this. For instance, if you had Down Syndrome you already have a set of conditions that are going to define many events in your life. As for behaviour affecting destiny, it absolutely does. Your actions affecxt what occurs in your life. What occurs in your life affects your behaviour. Make sense?

If you think on an atomic level, is anything actualy acting randomly?


If you think on an atomic level, then everything is random. Although you can predict that something will happen, and that on average a large group of atoms will behave exactly as expected, you have no idea what one particular atom will do. An example is radioactivity. If you have a large amount of radioactive substance, you can say that about half of the radioactivity will be gone approximately within the "half-life" of the material. But you dont know which particular atoms will decay. And if you have just one, then you could technically sit watching it to the end of infinity, and never see it do anything.

If you think on an atomic level, then everything is random. Although you can predict that something will happen, and that on average a large group of atoms will behave exactly as expected, you have no idea what one particular atom will do. An example is radioactivity. If you have a large amount of radioactive substance, you can say that about half of the radioactivity will be gone approximately within the "half-life" of the material. But you dont know which particular atoms will decay. And if you have just one, then you could technically sit watching it to the end of infinity, and never see it do anything.

We can't currently see a patern. Doesn't mean that there isn't one.

Perhaps "struggle" was the wrong word. I don't like the idea that I have no control over the events of my life. Some things happen that I may not like to occur in my life. If I have free will, and said things occur, then it is my own fault somewhat. If I have no free will, then said things occur no matter how much I may not want them to.
Ah, good, so we were both talking about the same thing then.
Okay, it makes a lot more sense now.

We can't currently see a patern. Doesn't mean that there isn't one.
Just thought id add another question to the debate:

If the pattern were impossible to detect, then we would never know it, and so for all intense and purposes, it would be random from our point of view. Would it really matter, then, if it wasnt? (this is the same principle as electronic random number generation).

Just thought id add another question to the debate:

If the pattern were impossible to detect, then we would never know it, and so for all intense and purposes, it would be random from our point of view. Would it really matter, then, if it wasnt? (this is the same principle as electronic random number generation).
I'm not sure quite what it was that is supposed to be running on a pattern, but I'm going to take it in my own direction and run with it.
I will assume you meant everything running on an undetectable pattern.

If that were the case, it would definately matter. Because it would mean the universe was deterministic. Whether or not we knew it, we would have no free will.

I don't think there is such a thing as destiny. In fact, I think it's a dnagerous idea because it allows people to just lie back and let the world happen to them, instead of realising that it's up to us to change the world.

Originally posted by Preebs
I don't think there is such a thing as destiny. In fact, I think it's a dnagerous idea because it allows people to just lie back and let the world happen to them, instead of realising that it's up to us to change the world.

but at the same time, what about those things we cannpt understand, that have no known justification? Don't you think it's dangerous for people to justify everything as well?

but at the same time, what about those things we cannpt understand, that have no known justification? Don't you think it's dangerous for people to justify everything as well?

Eh? Sorry if I'm out of it, I'm doped up on antihistamines.

I think if we don't know something, we should just admit it. :p I wasn't trying to say anything about justifying things though, what I mean is that people need to wake up to the fact that we're individuals and can impact on the world, as an individual or as a group.

Can you explain what you mean further?

Yes, there is such a thing as destiny, and things are random, but the two have nothing to do with each other. Destiny is willful participation in one's future.

Originally posted by Preebs
I don't think there is such a thing as destiny. In fact, I think it's a dnagerous idea because it allows people to just lie back and let the world happen to them, instead of realising that it's up to us to change the world.

You said that it is dangerous for people to believe in destiny. Don't get me wrong, I agree people need to take action in their lives. What I mean is when people cannot justify things they search for alternative methods that justify them like religion. This is a dangerous thing because these methods have parameters in which one is to behave. Often times whenpeople do not understand things, they will to bizarre things.

P.S. Don't worry I'm doped up on wellbutrin.

Just thought id add another question to the debate:

If the pattern were impossible to detect, then we would never know it, and so for all intense and purposes, it would be random from our point of view. Would it really matter, then, if it wasnt? (this is the same principle as electronic random number generation).

If there is a hidden pattern to the universe I supose it wouldn't matter in a practical sense, but it's still not nice knowing you have no true free will.

You said that it is dangerous for people to believe in destiny. Don't get me wrong, I agree people need to take action in their lives. What I mean is when people cannot justify things they search for alternative methods that justify them like religion. This is a dangerous thing because these methods have parameters in which one is to behave. Often times whenpeople do not understand things, they will to bizarre things.

P.S. Don't worry I'm doped up on wellbutrin.
Oh, I agree, which is why I think we should just admit when we don't understand things and not make up an explanation. We should also understand that even though we may not have the ability to understand things now, we may have that in the future; it doesn't mean they're inexplicable.

hmm, however you are more likly to get heads on a coin flip, (at least in britian) because the head side contains more metal

Orignally posted by Preebs
Oh, I agree, which is why I think we should just admit when we don't understand things and not make up an explanation. We should also understand that even though we may not have the ability to understand things now, we may have that in the future; it doesn't mean they're inexplicable.

Awesome. We agree. Now I must go to bed. Night everyone! :fluffle:

If that were the case, it would definately matter. Because it would mean the universe was deterministic. Whether or not we knew it, we would have no free will.
But if you don't know it, how does it possibly matter?

But if you don't know it, how does it possibly matter?
You're right, it won't matter to anyone. But that doesn't change the fact that they will have no free will.

It really depends on how "matter" is defined. I was using "matter" to mean "have an effect on something", while it seems everybody else is using "matter" as in the way I used "matter to anyone" earlier in this post. If the second definition there is being used, as I now suspect, then no, it won't matter a bit.

hmm, however you are more likly to get heads on a coin flip, (at least in britian) because the head side contains more metal
You may want to re-think your logic on that one. ;)

You're right, it won't matter to anyone. But that doesn't change the fact that they will have no free will.

It really depends on how "matter" is defined. I was using "matter" to mean "have an effect on something", while it seems everybody else is using "matter" as in the way I used "matter to anyone" earlier in this post. If the second definition there is being used, as I now suspect, then no, it won't matter a bit.
No, I'm saying that it doesn't matter if there is no free will, as long as will can be utilized as free will. It's like this other post I made on randomness.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7380166&postcount=17

Determination by nature is a redundancy. Determination by God, that's another matter...

I don't believe in Destiny, but I do believe in the domino effect (something you do in your past/present will affect the outcome of somethign else, which effects something else, and so on)

I was thinking about destiny the other day and a thought struck me. How can anything be truly random? Flipping a coin is seemingly random, however if you knew enough variables (air pressure, strength of flip ect ect) you should be able to predict what will happen. As for "random thought" this is formed by neurons in the brain sending electrical pulses, it isn't truly random as the neurons fire at a certain time (could someone tell me what makes the neurons fire, im not entirely sure) causing these thoughts to occur. If you think on an atomic level, is anything actualy acting randomly?

Is there such a thing as truly random? if not, then are we all trapped by 'destiny'?

Yes I was slightly drunk when I thought of this.



Well, I hate to think science has all the anserws and is right about everything, so I think things can be random. As for destiney, I'm not sure.

Randomness is inherent in the universe.

Therefore predestination is impossible.

Thank-you Quantum physics!

Randomness is inherent in the universe.

Therefore predestination is impossible.

Thank-you Quantum physics!

I couldn't agree more.

Destiny belongs in Mobile Suit Gundam SEED, not my life.

I hope there such a thing as destiny... because that's what keeps me going everyday... the thought that someday my "special guy" will come along.

I believe that certain major events in your life are preset. Like meeting certain special people (thank you destiny for that:):):):)) and certain things occurring (SP?). However, I think you can determine the little things, sort of multiple choice, there are certainty's in your life that will happen, kind of like choosing an ending. I think that your reaction to certain pre-determined events will send you down a different fork in the road, thus leading to another set of events that have been layed out for you. Yet I believe that you still do retain control over your life, but major events have been laid down to happen and they will whatever you do. Your actions then will determine the next set of events you come across.

Make sense?

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