NationStates Jolt Archive

If you're in a room and you're surrounded by idiots and they all agree, they win.

Is this the core of democracy? Discuss. :D

If you're in a room and you're surrounded by idiots and they all agree, they win.

Is this the core of democracy? Discuss. :D

Not likely...

Idiots don't register to VOTE!

So while they are still free to express any opinion they wish, they seldom use the Power they have in their Democracy to assert it.

Why do you think we call them IDIOTS in the first place?

:p

Regards,
Gaar

If you're in a room and you're surrounded by idiots and they all agree, they win.

Is this the core of democracy? Discuss. :D
How do you think Bush won the election?

How do you think Bush won the election?

He got a MAJORITY of the Registered Voters Votes...

Those weren't the IDIOTS.

Had the IDIOTS Registered Kerry just may have pulled it off!

Regards,
Gaar

He got a MAJORITY of the Registered Voters Votes...

Those weren't the IDIOTS.

Had the IDIOTS Registered Kerry just may have pulled it off!

Regards,
Gaar
Most of them were.

He got a MAJORITY of the Registered Voters Votes...

Those weren't the IDIOTS.

Had the IDIOTS Registered Kerry just may have pulled it off!

Regards,
Gaar

He didn't get the majority vs. Gore, yet he still won. Sounds like a flawed system to me.

He didn't get the majority vs. Gore, yet he still won. Sounds like a flawed system to me.
Everything in America that has to do with governement or law is flawed.

He got a MAJORITY of the Registered Voters Votes...

Those weren't the IDIOTS.

Had the IDIOTS Registered Kerry just may have pulled it off!

Regards,
Gaar
Anyone ever felt like hanging themselves would be a good choice as a response to something some one says?

Anyone ever felt like hanging themselves would be a good choice as a response to something some one says?
Yes.

He didn't get the majority vs. Gore, yet he still won. Sounds like a flawed system to me.

So YOU would prefer that ONE STATE have the ability to Dictate who they want as President?

Because without the Electoral College it is Mathematically possible for one State to decide who will be President against the will of the other 49.

With the Electoral College you would need to get as few as 13 I believe and they would ALL have to be the Largest States in the Union.

So, given that States are allowed to direct their Electorates in any manner they choose, why would you want to favor a System that could allow for One State to dictate its will on the rest?

Regards,
Gaar

Most of them were.

You are entitled to your OPINION, just as I am mine.

Regards,
Gaar

So YOU would prefer that ONE STATE have the ability to Dictate who they want as President?

Because without the Electoral College it is Mathematically possible for one State to decide who will be President against the will of the other 49.

With the Electoral College you would need to get as few as 13 I believe and they would ALL have to be the Largest States in the Union.

So, given that States are allowed to direct their Electorates in any manner they choose, why would you want to favor a System that could allow for One State to dictate its will on the rest?

Regards,
Gaar

And this doesn't happen already? I seem to recall Florida deciding the fate of the nation in 2000.

Because without the Electoral College it is Mathematically possible for one State to decide who will be President against the will of the other 49.
Or perhaps we could go without state boundaries and just treat the whole electorate as under one state (the nation sense of state).

Originally posted by Red Sox Fanatics
And this doesn't happen already? I seem to recall Florida deciding the fate of the nation in 2000.

Ohio decided the election on '04.

idiots should be able to contol their own lives.. whoever stupid and pointless they are

Or perhaps we could go without state boundaries and just treat the whole electorate as under one state (the nation sense of state).
Just like Europe will soon be.

idiots should be able to contol their own lives.. whoever stupid and pointless they are
That would put the world into chaos.

Ohio decided the election on '04.

My point exactly. Individual states DO turn the tide of an election, even with the holy Electoral College.

Or perhaps we could go without state boundaries and just treat the whole electorate as under one state (the nation sense of state).

So throw out the entire IDEA of States Rights?!?!

Didn't we already Fight a War over that?

Sorry, States Rights is part of our Constitution. You are going to have to try and change the Constitution BEFORE you can do such a thing, and I will be against every effort you make in such a regard.

I don't want California or New York or Texas telling me what I HAVE to do here in Washington...

And since a good many States get a higher proportion of say according to population because of the Electoral College, I think you are going to find it very difficult getting the 2/3 vote you will need to change the Constitution.

But Good Luck!

Regards,
Gaar

That would put the world into chaos.
then you should try to "educate" them instead of restricting their voting rights

Ohio decided the election on '04.

Really?

:confused:

And here I thought some 29 or 30 OTHER States had joined them in deciding who won!?!?

Sorry, my bad...

:rolleyes:

Regards,
Gaar

My point exactly. Individual states DO turn the tide of an election, even with the holy Electoral College.

Maybe, but without it JUST ONE can decide and not turn "any tide" as you put it...

They WOULD BE the "Tide" you refer to, and I don't want ANY STATE thinking they can become some sort of "Tsunami" on the rest of the U.S.

Something wrong with that?

Regards,
Gaar

He didn't get the majority vs. Gore, yet he still won. Sounds like a flawed system to me.

... but then our system isn't about popular vote is it.. nor SHOULD IT BE... besides.. had Gore won his own state.. there woudln't have even been an issue

... but then our system isn't about popular vote is it.. nor SHOULD IT BE... besides.. had Gore won his own state.. there woudln't have even been an issue

Then let's cut the crap and be honest and stop calling ourselves a "Democracy".

I mostly do not concur with this idea. What the author of the original post, "If you're in a room, and you're surrounded by all idiots, and they agree, they win," is referring to is a "mobocracy." This is when majority rule is able to overrule both common sense and foolish practices in government at the discretion of the mobocratic lobbyists and power holders. Democracy is not like this in that we have systems of initiative, referendum, recall, and veto, in which an unworthy decision by a radical or oppressive majority can be overturned.

Then let's cut the crap and be honest and stop calling ourselves a "Democracy".
America basically doesn't ahve a democracy.

Then let's cut the crap and be honest and stop calling ourselves a "Democracy".

We don't, that's just the short term we use.

No one denies that we are a Democratic Republic, do they?

But then again, perhaps YOU could name even ONE TRUE Democracy?

Regards,
Gaar

My point exactly. Individual states DO turn the tide of an election, even with the holy Electoral College.

With that mentality in any election any state has the power to change the tide of an election, which means all states are equal... ohio decided the election as much as florida did, or texas, or tenneessee, or any other southern state that voted Bush..

the fate of the election does not always falls on the same state though... as it would without the electoral system.. without an electoral system, New York California, and states like Texas would be determining the election, and what issues were to be brought forward. Atleast in this way smaller states can have their issues addressed as well

My point exactly. Individual states DO turn the tide of an election, even with the holy Electoral College.

With that mentality in any election any state has the power to change the tide of an election, which means all states are equal... ohio decided the election as much as florida did, or texas, or tenneessee, or any other southern state that voted Bush..

the fate of the election does not always falls on the same state though... as it would without the electoral system.. without an electoral system, New York California, and states like Texas would be determining the election, and what issues were to be brought forward. Atleast in this way smaller states can have their issues addressed as well

We have a representative form of government, because if we didn't, we'd be eating McDonald's for dinner every night, and American Idol voting would be mandatory. :rolleyes:

Thank God we don't live in a true, baseline democracy.

idiots should be able to contol their own lives.. whoever stupid and pointless they are
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
--H.L. Mencken

Just like Europe will soon be.
Yeah...I'm thinking no.

Yeah...I'm thinking no.
I hope so.

Well, Democracy is - literally, as near as I can tell - government by logical fallacy (http://datanation.com/fallacies/pop.htm).

After reading Starship Troopers ( a misrepresented book, damn that movie anyway) I decided to let a science fiction author of moderate fame determine my political beliefs on democracy. In order to be a full citizen and vote you must have served in the military and must be willing to die for your nation. Only then do you truly have a vested interest in making that nation better.
Alright Heinlein!! It truly is easier to live when you let others decide what you think.

After reading Starship Troopers ( a misrepresented book, damn that movie anyway) I decided to let a science fiction author of moderate fame determine my political beliefs on democracy. In order to be a full citizen and vote you must have served in the military and must be willing to die for your nation. Only then do you truly have a vested interest in making that nation better.
Alright Heinlein!! It truly is easier to live when you let others decide what you think.
Why the military?

Seems that making people work in the public sector would do more good to the country then making people join the military to become a citizen.

Not that I agree with either way.

Why the military?

Seems that making people work in the public sector would do more good to the country then making people join the military to become a citizen.

Not that I agree with either way.

Public sector!? Bah humbug!! Can you drive a tank or shoot somebody or throw a grenade working in the public sector? No. All of these things are vital skills necessary to make a good choice when voting.

Public sector!? Bah humbug!! Can you drive a tank or shoot somebody or throw a grenade working in the public sector? No. All of these things are vital skills necessary to make a good choice when voting.
They are?

They are?

Well we could alter the voting method so that when the 'citizen' goes to vote he is given a gun and one round then sent to the firing range. At the end of the range, where the targets are you have you pieces of paper with a candidates name.

The idea being that you vote by hitting a balot. If you miss you were obviously incapable of making the decision. Hitting a different candidate then you wanted too will provide a motivation to be a good shot.

They are?

I have a strange feeling you are taking my argument seriously.

If you're in a room and you're surrounded by idiots and they all agree, they win.

Is this the core of democracy? Discuss. :D
pretty much :).

the best way to ensure that individual freedoms will be totally eliminated is to pursue pure democracy. it's faster than a single tyrant, even, because you have many tyrants instead of just the one.

If you're in a room and you're surrounded by idiots and they all agree, they win.

Is this the core of democracy? Discuss. :D
I don't think so. The core of representative democracy is either:

- You're in a room surrounded by idiots who have radically different views from yours. They all agree to elect another idiot to represent you. You're screwed.

or

- You're in a room surrounded by intelligent people who agree to elect someone you can relate to to represent you. After a while though, the person is corrupted by power, and governs as bad as the idiot.


Real democracy would involve general assemblies, local councils, federations of elected and accountable council leaders and consensus.

Not likely...

Idiots don't register to VOTE!

So while they are still free to express any opinion they wish, they seldom use the Power they have in their Democracy to assert it.

Why do you think we call them IDIOTS in the first place?

:p

Regards,
Gaar

Yes they do. Take a look at the Republican campaign strategies in the last cycle. Idiots voted in overwhelming numbers.

Yes they do. Take a look at the Republican campaign strategies in the last cycle. Idiots voted in overwhelming numbers.

So you are saying that a bunch of Idiots bested you and yours?

What would that make you and yours?

Regards,
Gaar

So you are saying that a bunch of Idiots bested you and yours?

What would that make you and yours?

Regards,
Gaar

You know that old shirt that said something along the lines of "Never underestimate stupid people in large groups"?

Well...yeah.

As I whole, I can believe the American people are generally idiots. We're allowing ourselves to be taken over by a politiboro that is only different than the Soviet Communist Party in that it includes two parties.

Then let's cut the crap and be honest and stop calling ourselves a "Democracy".

We don't call ourselves a "Democracy", or at least, those of us that read/listen don't. If you know the Pledge of Allegiance, it syas "...and to the republic for which it stands..." We are a democratic republic, with elected officials and all that.


We don't, that's just the short term we use.

No one denies that we are a Democratic Republic, do they? -snip-

right, we are a democratic republic, but people became lazy and just say democracy instead

where I come from, we call em bozo's. And we shoot them if they don't vote.

eh just joking. :sniper:

As I whole, I can believe the American people are generally idiots. We're allowing ourselves to be taken over by a politiboro that is only different than the Soviet Communist Party in that it includes two parties.

You are correct because...

As a whole, the MAJORITY of U.S. citizens aren't Registered to Vote and, like I have been saying, I believe THEY are the IDIOTS!

Why would YOU be calling people, who HAVE LEARNED to USE their RIGHT to VOICE their OPINION when it matters most, Idiots?

Could it be because... Never mind, I'm not even going there.

Regards,
Gaar

where I come from, we call em bozo's. And we shoot them if they don't vote.

eh just joking. :sniper:

hey just a question are you canadian?
:confused:

You are correct because...

As a whole, the MAJORITY of U.S. citizens aren't Registered to Vote and, like I have been saying, I believe THEY are the IDIOTS!

Why would YOU be calling people, who HAVE LEARNED to USE their RIGHT to VOICE their OPINION when it matters most, Idiots?

Could it be because... Never mind, I'm not even going there.

Regards,
Gaar

Because we're forced to chose between Dumb ands Dumber dressed up as Cake and Candy. No one seems to be intelligent enough to try to deal with this, mostly because very few people seem intelligent enough to see anything BUT Cake and Candy.

Elected Officials have become a product to sell and, unlike other products, they aren't regulated to enforce truthfulness on the part of the advertisers. Unfortunately, Americans as a whole have been duped by them and will continue to do so as long as the only two parties (or only one party, as it really is) with any chance are so deep in Corporate America's pocket it isn't funny.

Gaar, when you state your fear of California and NY taking over America if you got rid of the EC, you are really saying - I like my extra power that I get from living in Alaska (or another state with a tiny population), and I don't want the magority of people to have the magority of the say.

Gaar, when you state your fear of California and NY taking over America if you got rid of the EC, you are really saying - I like my extra power that I get from living in Alaska (or another state with a tiny population), and I don't want the magority of people to have the magority of the say.

Yeah, so?

There are checks and Balances THROUGHOUT Our Constitution...

The Senate has 2 people for every State, that is QUITE A BIT out of Balance, don't ya think?

The POINT IS that these things were put in place to keep the Majority from imposing their Will on everyone else, right?

Regards,
Gaar