NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

The Bible tells them they should spread the word of God. Which some of them interpret as repeating the word of God ad nauseum to those who've decided they really aren't interested!

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*
Built in clause to their religion … trying to help you (when the only way to help you ultimately is to make you accept their god therefore giving you eternal salvation)

Just the way their faith is based

self-righteousness. when will they realise its up to the individual whether they want to be "saved" or not - shoving your views down my throat isn't going to make me think any more highly of your religion.

Your friend belongs to US-style Christian church or is a Mormon?
They evangelise everything on two legs.

seriously, their god told them to convert you. particularly you actually, since you're a pagan not a monotheist. At worst, they think you're going to hell, and are only being kind out of concern for your soul.

you can't convert to hinduism. you can start going to temple any time you like, but you can't convert. you can convert to islam, but they aren't radical proselytisers, in spite of what the bnp claim. (that they rape white women in order to make muslim babies. i ask you).

If you read the Chick tracts, the only way to get into Heaven apparently is to ensure you've converted at least one lost soul to "God".

If you read the Chick tracts, the only way to get into Heaven apparently is to ensure you've converted at least one lost soul to "God".

You'd be buggered if you were the last one to be converted then!

You'd be buggered if you were the last one to be converted then!
Heh... no kidding.

Someone should pose that question to Chick - "So uhhh... if you're the last person to be converted, doesn't that kinda damn you to hell?"

I can guess the response though... "I guess that means you'd better convert now, rather than later!"

The good Christians spread their knowledge.

The bad Christians can't understand how you have any other views.

The ones I like keep it to themselves.

You'd be buggered if you were the last one to be converted then!

A mathematical (sort of) proof that conversion to christianity is logically unsound:

If you are the last person to be converted then it is logically impossible to convert someone. By Chick tracts you are therefore damned for all eternity, as this is your inescapable fate then it is pointless following the laws of christianity, and so the last converted person may aswell be debauched and enjoy themselves for a while, until their inevitable suffering.

As a consequence, they are not strictly a convert, but are themselves a lost soul, this means that whoever converted them is damned and may aswell give up on the straight and narrow.

The knock on effect is that everyone will end up damned. QED

Whaaaaaaaat if, you converted the last person then some random convert changed their mind, then the last person could convert them... does that count?

Or does your conversion of someone else become anulled if you change your mind, then when you change your mind back you have to do it all again?

I think I'll go on living in sin, it's a lot simpler ;)

Christianity, the ultimate pyramid scheme.

Christianity, the ultimate pyramid scheme.

And you can't get your money back even if you have a mate that works in trading standards!

To a christian, living in the world (by in the world I mean not following in Christs' footsteps) is like living on a sinking ship. They have a lifeboat and wish you would get on it so you wont go down with the ship. In other words, they try to convert you because they care about you.

To a christian, living in the world (by in the world I mean not following in Christs' footsteps) is like living on a sinking ship. They have a lifeboat and wish you would get on it so you wont go down with the ship. In other words, they try to convert you because they care about you.
That's what they tell you, as they repeatedly try to force you to believe in what they believe in because they have probably never read the bible before.

And you can't get your money back even if you have a mate that works in trading standards!
I had a Christian chain letter once... said if I sent my salvation to the person at the top of the list and then forwarded the letter to 5 other people then in a few weeks I'd have over 2,000 people sending me their salvations.

I never even got one back you know... I GOT RIPPED OFF!

:p :D :p

To a christian, living in the world (by in the world I mean not following in Christs' footsteps) is like living on a sinking ship. They have a lifeboat and wish you would get on it so you wont go down with the ship. In other words, they try to convert you because they care about you.

That is the sort of attitude that really annoys me. You really did nothing wrong, but it's that self-righteous, "You need my help" attitude towards others that makes me ignore Christians.

I had a Christian chain letter once... said if I sent my salvation to the person at the top of the list and then forwarded the letter to 5 other people then in a few weeks I'd have over 2,000 people sending me their salvations.

I never even got one back you know... I GOT RIPPED OFF!

:p :D :p

and you're going to hell. Man that's quite a slap in the face. When I got ripped of by amway, the worst I was left with was loads of crappy cleaning products, nothing really compared to eternal damnation!

A mathematical (sort of) proof that conversion to christianity is logically unsound:

If you are the last person to be converted then it is logically impossible to convert someone. By Chick tracts you are therefore damned for all eternity, as this is your inescapable fate then it is pointless following the laws of christianity, and so the last converted person may aswell be debauched and enjoy themselves for a while, until their inevitable suffering.

As a consequence, they are not strictly a convert, but are themselves a lost soul, this means that whoever converted them is damned and may aswell give up on the straight and narrow.

The knock on effect is that everyone will end up damned. QED

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you have to "convert" somebody to get into heaven. And if you do, I'm surely damned, cause no-one I know has come up and told me they became a Christian because of me.

It does say however that it is better to hang a rock around your head and jump in the ocean then to try to convert someone away from Christianity.

Didn't L. Ron Hubbard the founder of the Church of Scientology, say jussssssssst before he founded it : "Religion; thats were the money is" ??

Religion, a con job?! :eek: Noooooooo........... :D

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you have to "convert" somebody to get into heaven. And if you do, I'm surely damned, cause no-one I know has come up and told me they became a Christian because of me.

It does say however that it is better to hang a rock around your head and jump in the ocean then to try to convert someone away from Christianity.
We're mocking Jack Chick (do a search on his name in Google if you don't know about him already) who I sincerely hope is as indicative of the typical Christian as Fred Phelps is...

(ie Completely not at all... since I choose to believe not all Christians are raving nutters).

It seems to me you guys need an actual Christian (me!) to put their two cents in here.

Firstly, you're lumping all of us into the group which (sadly) most everyone hears about. We're not all rabid proselytizing fanatics. In fact, its far from it. I look at the smarmy televangelists on late night TV on Bravo and inwardly groan.

Secondly, the people who do INSIST on saving people's souls to save themselves have one of the most literal interpretations of the Bible around, to the point of ridiculous. That's not to say the Bible's meaningless, but if you follow it to the T, you'll find you're not even supposed to eat shellfish (see www.godhatesshrimp.com)

Christians today I think, being one, are way too preoccupied with preaching their superiority and wanting to share in it. Yeah, God wants everyone to be his children, but you know what? He also taught tolerance, too! Sections of the Bible are conveniently ignored when they don't agree with a person's intended message.

SO, with all that in mind, to all you rabid proselytizing fanatics out there, ease off! Remember, "the meek shall inherit the Earth!"

Thanks for hearing my rant!

thanks for believing in the sanity of the larger part of the religion!

btw on a side note...

hundredth post! (eeeeeeee!)

It seems to me you guys need an actual Christian (me!) to put their two cents in here.

Firstly, you're lumping all of us into the group which (sadly) most everyone hears about. We're not all rabid proselytizing fanatics. In fact, its far from it. I look at the smarmy televangelists on late night TV on Bravo and inwardly groan.

Secondly, the people who do INSIST on saving people's souls to save themselves have one of the most literal interpretations of the Bible around, to the point of ridiculous. That's not to say the Bible's meaningless, but if you follow it to the T, you'll find you're not even supposed to eat shellfish (see www.godhatesshrimp.com)

Christians today I think, being one, are way too preoccupied with preaching their superiority and wanting to share in it. Yeah, God wants everyone to be his children, but you know what? He also taught tolerance, too! Sections of the Bible are conveniently ignored when they don't agree with a person's intended message.

SO, with all that in mind, to all you rabid proselytizing fanatics out there, ease off! Remember, "the meek shall inherit the Earth!"

Thanks for hearing my rant!


Oh so your the real christian :p cause of course there are not major swaths of different sects that dont agree with everything you say :p (you dislike us using one other single person as a represnetitive sample and you put yourself (another individual) in the place of the only type of "real" christian) silly :fluffle:

Oh so your the real christian :p cause of course there are not major swaths of different sects that dont agree with everything you say :p (you dislike us using one other single person as a represnetitive sample and you put yourself (another individual) in the place of the only type of "real" christian) silly :fluffle:

Thanks for responding to that. I was going to say something to him too, but thought better of it.

thanks for believing in the sanity of the larger part of the religion!

btw on a side note...

hundredth post! (eeeeeeee!)

I believe you when you say most christians are sane. But it only takes nut case knocking at the door and telling you you're going to hell, to really ruin your evening of porn and class A drugs you had planned!

I believe you when you say most christians are sane. But it only takes nut case knocking at the door and telling you you're going to hell, to really ruin your evening of porn and class A drugs you had planned!
That or getting hit with a bible because you are walking with a female friend that is ONLY wearing mid shin length dress :p that hurt … hardcover

Thanks for responding to that. I was going to say something to him too, but thought better of it.
Yeah I hope he dosent take it as me saying chic is as good of a representitive ... just saying individuals cant represent the whole of just about anything much less something as large and diverse as the christian church

I believe you when you say most christians are sane. But it only takes nut case knocking at the door and telling you you're going to hell, to really ruin your evening of porn and class A drugs you had planned!
No way!

Seriously, think about it... where are all the bad girls going when they die? To heaven? I don't think so... just think of your trip to hell as a one way ticket to an eternity of Playboy Bunnies.

If there is a hell, I want to be a part of it - all the really cool and interesting people are going to be there.

Through history there have been times when actively trying to convert non-Christians has been both more and less important to Christians than it is today. For a while most theologians said that actively trying to convert non-Christians is meaningless, because when it comes down to crunch, God is the one who decides which people accept salvation and which reject it.

Today that view is outdated, at least in most protestant theological circles, but the HOW of converting non-believers is still widely debated. Being a Christian myself, i think actively seeking out non-believers, trying to convert them works against the purpose. (Hence this thread...)

But being clear and open about the fact that I am a Christian leads to extraordinarily many good conversations with non-Christian religious seekers. (And quite a few annoying people who come ut to me in parties, where there is a lot of alcohol involved, and I REALLY don't want to listen to how they've been trying to find God but never got an answer...)

I don't know whether anyone has converted to Christianity because of those conversations, but at least many people's rather thwarted view of what it is that Christians believe have been corrected to the better. :)

That or getting hit with a bible because you are walking with a female friend that is ONLY wearing mid shin length dress :p that hurt … hardcover

Man that's harsh. Some of the things some of my female friends wear would probably get me lynched if I lived where you do!!!

Further points for confusion.
1. If I were to convert to, say, anglicanism the others would tell me I'm still damned. Which ever way I turn some christian sect will still tell me I get to go to hell.

2. My friends are mostly either catholics or anglicans. Nothing too extreme.
They feel I am mis-guided and have been led astray by the devil thus if they keep explaining gods love, jesus' blah blah bla blah, I'll be saved.
They're nice about it but I feel that they feel sorry for me.
Obviously never been to a Beltaine rite ;)

I still don't get it. I don't try to convince my mother she's a man so she can easier get a job as a coal miner. You can't convince me that your made up stories are real and my made up stories are rubbish just cos yours are written down and mine are thought out by me to serve me.

Man that's harsh. Some of the things some of my female friends wear would probably get me lynched if I lived where you do!!!
Me too ... he was not happy with other women wearin pants ...dont know why I got the bible

lol

Your friend belongs to US-style Christian church or is a Mormon?
They evangelise everything on two legs.
My friend is a mormon, but he doesn't try to convert me, he says those that go round houses have no life.

it's jehova's witnesses that come round annoying you.

Oh so your the real christian :p cause of course there are not major swaths of different sects that dont agree with everything you say :p (you dislike us using one other single person as a represnetitive sample and you put yourself (another individual) in the place of the only type of "real" christian) silly :fluffle:

He's so self-righteous that he considers himself to be a better Christian than most self-righteous Christians. Now thats self-righteous.

I'm only kidding, Teatroia. (but there is a little truth to every joke)

it's jehova's witnesses that come round annoying you.
Both up here :) we dont see too many being that it is minnesota (walking door to door when it is -40 out is ... well not fun)

First off, I implore all of you to ignore anything Jack Chic says. The man does not represent what Christianity is about, the love of <i>everyone</i>, wheather a believer or not.

As for the attempt to convert, I agree with the others, we should not be forcing our beliefs down the throats of others. Yes, we were commanded by Jesus on his assention to spread the word of God, but that does not mean forcing a conversion. Personally, I look at it this way: I will bring up the issue once, and after than leave it to you. Should you be interested, I will continue "preaching", but if you dont' want to listen, I won't force the issue.

Good day and God bless

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*


I'm Christian. I have no desire to convert you.

Well at least the Christians seem to care enough about you to try and save your arse.

I guess other religions think you're not worth helping.


:headbang:

Because prosetylization is a Christian duty.

They want to convert you because
YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT.

First off, I implore all of you to ignore anything Jack Chic says. The man does not represent what Christianity is about, the love of <i>everyone</i>, wheather a believer or not.

As for the attempt to convert, I agree with the others, we should not be forcing our beliefs down the throats of others. Yes, we were commanded by Jesus on his assention to spread the word of God, but that does not mean forcing a conversion. Personally, I look at it this way: I will bring up the issue once, and after than leave it to you. Should you be interested, I will continue "preaching", but if you dont' want to listen, I won't force the issue.

Good day and God bless
Jack Chick, at best, hilarious (his rants on Dungeons and Dragons are spectacular), at worse, a raving loonie with a gaping hole where his brain used to be. No wait, at worst, satan, trying to fool all the good christians into turning into self-righteous assholes, which get a look from saint peter before he triggers the trap door.

judge less ye be judged. It is funny how their bible doesnt apply to them but can be forced on all others.


I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

They want to convert you because
YOU TOUCH YOURSELF AT NIGHT.
Yesss.
I also touch my wife
so what

A priest I know says that the way to go about "converting" people is by just living the best you can, i.e. kind, honest, honourable, helping etc.
Trying to "convert" people who don't seem interested (haven't asked) is counter-productive (exceptions could be made in the case of some hidden nation in the middle of the Amazon, where they don't even know that a word like "christianity" exists).
As for protestants damning anglicans and all that, well, all of the larger Churches and many of the small sects accept christians of other denominations. The point isn't that you have to be part of so-and-so to gain salvation, the point is to try your best to follow the example of Christ and his ways. And if you're really trying your best, then you do join so-and-so.
Whatever. :)

As a christian, i don't like to push my relegion on anyone else, but I do know some people who do want everyone to be christian. They do it because they want everyone to have eternal life in heaven. Personally I don't belive that only christians can go to heaven, so I don't try to push my relegion on anyone else, but if you had grown up hearing about how horrid the opposit of heaven is, you would also be trying to help everyone you can to stay out of there.

As a christian, i don't like to push my relegion on anyone else, but I do know some people who do want everyone to be christian. They do it because they want everyone to have eternal life in heaven. Personally I don't belive that only christians can go to heaven, so I don't try to push my relegion on anyone else, but if you had grown up hearing about how horrid the opposit of heaven is, you would also be trying to help everyone you can to stay out of there.
I have grown up hearing tha and I still think freedom of choice reigns supreme

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?
Because "God" told them to.

They think that if they can save a soul, it;ll make up for all their sins and they get an automatic welcome in heaven for stopping you form going to hell - also to make hell seem nicer! :D

As a christian, i don't like to push my relegion on anyone else, but I do know some people who do want everyone to be christian. They do it because they want everyone to have eternal life in heaven. Personally I don't belive that only christians can go to heaven, so I don't try to push my relegion on anyone else, but if you had grown up hearing about how horrid the opposit of heaven is, you would also be trying to help everyone you can to stay out of there.

One of the first not self-righteous Christians I have seen post on here.

Any Christian who actually realizes that Christianity is just a believe and doesn't determine whether you are good or not is ok in my book.

One of the first not self-righteous Christians I have seen post on here.

Any Christian who actually realizes that Christianity is just a believe and doesn't determine whether you are good or not is ok in my book.
I call christians like that agnostics that don't know it yet.
(its how my journey to not giving a shit began)

I don't think that Teatroia was saying he is the only "real" Christian or that he is "right" in some way others are not. He said he was "an actual Christian," not "the actual Christian." He is one Christian who believes certain things, and wanted to share his outlook on the topic at hand. I don't think he meant to suggest that he wrote the rules of Christianity. Those vary from person to person and denomination to denomination. No one can know for sure what is right and wrong; I believe that if one tries to demonstrate only good things, like love, understanding, tolerance, kindness, and forgivness, that's what counts.

Earlier in the thread someone (Katghanistan?) summed up my views on the whole subject. I'm a Christian. I don't want to convert you -- or anyone else, for that matter.

I call christians like that agnostics that don't know it yet.
(its how my journey to not giving a shit began)
Same here :)

The Christians are dying out and need more support. More and more people are becoming smart and seeing there is no God. People try to convert me...I laugh at them.

The Christians are dying out and need more support. More and more people are becoming smart and seeing there is no God. People try to convert me...I laugh at them.
They are certinaly being overtaken by other religions but hardly dying out

And they have been doing this sence their inception ... so that cant be the reason for the preaching (at least not the whole reason)

I call christians like that agnostics that don't know it yet.
(its how my journey to not giving a shit began)

You sound like you are preaching the superiority of agnosticism now, and that flies directly in the face of agnostic beliefs.

He does have definite traits of agnosticism, but I salute him if he holds on to his faith. Loyalty and faith are also traits of a good person.

Ok, fine...

They feel sorry for you, because they think your going to go to hell if you don't convert.

You sound like you are preaching the superiority of agnosticism now, and that flies directly in the face of agnostic beliefs.

He does have definite traits of agnosticism, but I salute him if he holds on to his faith. Loyalty and faith are also traits of a good person.
I'm not saying agnosticism is superior, it does have its good traits though, for instance, we can have a bias free discussion of religious topics more easily than others. On the other hand, we have no tradition, no holidays, no tight nit social group, etc.

I'm not saying agnosticism is superior, it does have its good traits though, for instance, we can have a bias free discussion of religious topics more easily than others. On the other hand, we have no tradition, no holidays, no tight nit social group, etc.

We are also completely out in the rain if any of the major religions are correct.

LOL, you guys misunderstood that I think! I just said actual Christian since it seemed like no other christian had put their opinion in. IF I ever think that my way's the only right way, i'm no better than the people I rant against. I've talked to friends of mine since my first post as well, and they agree with me in many respects, so at least I know its not just me!
I just wanted to be clear that I'm not trying to use myself as THE representative christian. The point was more that it seems like the "smarmy televangelists often seem like the representative christian, and really they're not, that's all!

Oh so your the real christian :p cause of course there are not major swaths of different sects that dont agree with everything you say :p (you dislike us using one other single person as a represnetitive sample and you put yourself (another individual) in the place of the only type of "real" christian) silly :fluffle:

We are also completely out in the rain if any of the major religions are correct.
It's not that bad. If Hinduism or Buddhism are correct, you could always come back as a cockroach. :p

It's not that bad. If Hinduism or Buddhism are correct, you could always come back as a cockroach. :p

Fuck that, I'm an elephant, I'm sure of that.

We are also completely out in the rain if any of the major religions are correct.
But so will all members of the other major religons LOL

It's not that bad. If Hinduism or Buddhism are correct, you could always come back as a cockroach. :p

That would suck.

LOL, you guys misunderstood that I think! I just said actual Christian since it seemed like no other christian had put their opinion in. IF I ever think that my way's the only right way, i'm no better than the people I rant against. I've talked to friends of mine since my first post as well, and they agree with me in many respects, so at least I know its not just me!
I just wanted to be clear that I'm not trying to use myself as THE representative christian. The point was more that it seems like the "smarmy televangelists often seem like the representative christian, and really they're not, that's all!
Ok fair enough (though most of us have a good understanding of christianity ... most of us were members at one point in time or grew up in the religion not coming from a position of ignorance)

Indeed, Teatroia.
I think the major point here is the Bible, when it says (referring to Christians) "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your [good] works, and [bring glory to God in Heaven]."

Actions speak louder than words: as society has changed, "preaching", or face to face "converting" has slipped in effectiveness. (Also - the fact that many people are now offended by it means Christians aught to reconsider)

As a Christian, I hope that my actions accomplish two things:
(a) make it clear that I try my best to follow God
and
(b) distance me from the obnoxious, "fire-and-brimstone" quote-unquote Christians


I think, as far as witnessing comes, that "truth in love" is a good catchphrase (also from the Bible).
Do my beliefs dictate that unbelievers go to hell? Well yeah. Just like a failing grade will make you re-take a class, almost.
That doesn't mean I have to dislike everyone (I can get along with just about anybody I've met, and have several good friends who aren't of my beliefs).

All I try to do is state the truth (as I know it) if and when it comes up. I don't START conversations, for the sake of starting them, (ie: "Hey, random person on the street! If you're not saved, YOU'RE GONNA BURNNNN!"), but when I do enter conversations, I'll say what I believe.

I'm very interested in "converting" (as it were) non-believers - but only if they express an interest. I refuse to try to force anything on anyone - that just seems counter-intuitive!

But so will all members of the other major religons LOL

At least they have a chance of being correct. Our best hope is not being completely wrong.

That would suck.
I'd BE IMMORTAL!!!!

OK, I've read all that.
Now tell me this.
I follow all the teaching of Christ.
Well I'm a nice peaceful chap who does his best to love his neighbour and does unto others etc etc blah blah.
I just happen to believe in the insignificance of man compared to nature.
We are fundementally unimportant and will pass. All else goes on.

So why don't they accept that as good enough. I don't have the dogma but I follow all the rules other than that.

...I just happen to believe in the insignificance of man compared to nature. We are fundementally unimportant and will pass. All else goes on. [...] ...but I follow all the rules other than that.

I'm interested to know, Green_Rain - what do you mean by "follow all the rules"? For example - in what light would you view the Bible?

At least they have a chance of being correct. Our best hope is not being completely wrong.
Not really if you think of it …. Lets say random 50 50 chance of god existing or not

Agnostics have a 50 percent chance of being correct.

Further subdivide the religions (the sum total can only reach a max of 50 percent otherwise they are “wrong”) lets say Catholicism takes up 25 percent of the total and the other religions the last 25 percent …

(I don’t know where I was going with that) but the chanse is fairly small that they managed to grab the correct portion of the “god exists” section

It's interesting, when you think of it in the way of figures..

I really think Christianity (as defined by the Bible) is the easiest religion out there - wether you "make it" or not is completely binary, and is summed up in the question: "Do you trust in Christ's death for you alone as your way to Heaven?"

Out of that question builds the rest of life, but it's ONLY the answer to that question that matters (pertaining to eternal life, anyway).
(For the sake of argument, I'm taking Christianity to be correct)

So it's either yes or no, pass or fail - no questions, ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It's interesting, when you think of it in the way of figures..

I really think Christianity (as defined by the Bible) is the easiest religion out there - wether you "make it" or not is completely binary, and is summed up in the question: "Do you trust in Christ's death for you alone as your way to Heaven?"

Out of that question builds the rest of life, but it's ONLY the answer to that question that matters (pertaining to eternal life, anyway).
(For the sake of argument, I'm taking Christianity to be correct)

So it's either yes or no, pass or fail - no questions, ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Isn't atheism the easiest?

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*
a lot of Christians don't try to convert people, and those Christians tend to be more livable. but there are those who can't help but parade their ignorance and rudeness by trying to explain the superiority of their God-myth to nonbelievers, and those Christians also tend to be significantly louder than the reasonable Christians. i don't know why they go after you, but i know why they try to convert me:

i'm confident, happy, and totally content with the natural world, and i don't need myths or supernatural forces to make me feel fulfilled. i have no fear of death, i have no fear of the unknown, and i find enough beauty and joy in the world around me to fill 10 lifetimes. i lack belief in God not only because i have no reason to believe, but also because i have no NEED to believe. i am an ethical and honorable person because i have the strength of character to live by my own values, not because i have been bribed or threatened into moral conformity.

the "scardy-Christians," as i like to call them, are desperate to convert people like me because they know how insideous our ideas are. i don't hate their God, i don't rant at him, i don't bite on their baits, i simply go about living a good and healthy God-free life. leading by quiet example is the last thing they want people like me to be doing, because it works. if they can't convert me then they still want to bug me enough to piss me off and make me embarass or discredit myself with attacks on them.

Isn't atheism the easiest?

Point taken. I was referring to specifically the question of life after death, so I didn't even factor in Atheism.

Incidentally, (and completely unrelated - probably would deserve its own thread), I also believe that Christianity makes the most sense "overall", as well. (Science, Afterlife, etc, etc) - but.. like I said, that's completely unrelated.

...

I really think Christianity (as defined by the Bible) is the easiest religion out there - wether you "make it" or not is completely binary, and is summed up in the question: "Do you trust in Christ's death for you alone as your way to Heaven?"

Out of that question builds the rest of life, but it's ONLY the answer to that question that matters (pertaining to eternal life, anyway).
(For the sake of argument, I'm taking Christianity to be correct)
...

You know, I think that a lot of people here in Britain don't believe in God, but if they did, they would be Christian. I wonder if that is because it is the "easiest" religion to follow, or if most of us just grew up in a mainly Christian community. It's weird, because I'm an atheist, but if I were religious, I would be Jewish, even though I live in a Christian community and Orthodox Judaism is often considered complicated. It's weird- it makes loads of sense, and I agree with loads of it, except that I don't believe in a God!

(For clarification, when I say "easiest", I mean "makes the most sense" - ie: "easiest to understand")

Is it possible to believe in life after death without believing in a god?

(For clarification, when I say "easiest", I mean "makes the most sense" - ie: "easiest to understand")

Still, it is generally considered to be one of the easiest to follow- not many really strict rules, like keeping Kosher.

Is it possible to believe in life after death without believing in a god?

I would assume so - but what would be the point?

Is it possible to believe in life after death without believing in a god?
Yes. Buddhism, for one.

I would assume so - but what would be the point?

Well, what's the point with a god?

I would assume so - but what would be the point?
Enlightenment.

Yes. Buddhism, for one.

Does not Buddhism teach that we are all gods, in and of ourselves?

And does that count as "believing in a god"?

Enlightenment.

And how exactly does enlightenment help you?

Well, what's the point with a god?

I meant - if you believe in the afterlife, without believing in a god of some sort - then WHY would there be an afterlife?

Obviously, the point to believing in a god, to begin with, is because it tends to make sense - a lot of unanswered questions are clearer (at least in my experience).

Yes. Buddhism, for one.

Well what about without any religion at all?

I meant - if you believe in the afterlife, without believing in a god of some sort - then WHY would there be an afterlife?

Obviously, the point to believing in a god, to begin with, is because it tends to make sense - a lot of unanswered questions are clearer (at least in my experience).

I've been wondering about the meaning of life since I was two, and so far, I reckon there isn't one! There doesn't have to be a reason for anything in my experience!

I've been wondering about the meaning of life since I was two, and so far, I reckon there isn't one!

The Christian belief states that we are on earth to:

1) Live our lives to our enjoyment
2) Grow closer to God, moving towards the original design for Humanity
3) Witness (thru' words or actions, as appropriate) God's existance and life-changing power
and finally:
4) To finish things up by rejoining God in heaven after death

That's a meaning, as far as I can tell. ^_^


Again, for sake of argument, I'm adopting the position that Christianity is truth.

The Christian belief states that we are on earth to:

1) Live our lives to our enjoyment
2) Grow closer to God, in the original design for Humanity
3) Witness (thru' words or actions, as appropriate) God's existance and life-changing power
and finally:
4) To finish things up by rejoining God in heaven after death

That's a meaning, as far as I can tell. ^_^


Again, for sake of argument, I'm adopting the position that Christianity is truth.


That’s now how I perceived Christianities view on it (but there is hardly one cohesive outlook in it from within the faith even so saying its Christianity’s view as a whole is kind of incorrect … but I understand what you mean)

Does not Buddhism teach that we are all gods, in and of ourselves?

And does that count as "believing in a god"?
Buddhists believe that the ultimate goal is enlightenment, which is oneness with the divine reality of the universe (as opposed to the material world, which is illusion). So I guess you could say they believe that we all have that which is of the divine within us. Then again, they also believe that so does every other living thing.

Why enlightenment? Well, the first step on the path to enlightment is the realisation that all life is suffering.

That's a very garbled synopsis, I'm afraid, but I'm not a Buddhist.

However, I did have it from the Secretary of the British Buddhist Society personally that Buddhists do not believe in any God, which will do me.

The issue with Christians lie in the enterpretations of many "side" issues: from that comes all the different denominations:

Presbyterian (certain types of music only)
Episcopalian (if I remember correctly, they believe in the Eucharist)
Baptist
Methodist

etc, etc.

Back to my "binary" comment, tho', each and every person in all of those denominations IS going to Heaven, if they believe Christ died for them, and that He is the only way to get to Heaven.

I could care less if you believe the communion bread physically becomes the broken body of Christ once you eat it - I, personally, think that's not true, but it doesn't matter - as long as you've made your binary choice, and are trying to honestly follow God.

So there are plenty of differences.. even plenty of differences as how people see our goal on earth - but the end result is the same. (According to the Bible, which should be the be-all and end-all definition of Christianity)

The issue with Christians lie in the enterpretations of many "side" issues: from that comes all the different denominations:

Presbyterian (certain types of music only)
Episcopalian (if I remember correctly, they believe in the Eucharist)
Baptist
Methodist

etc, etc.

Back to my "binary" comment, tho', each and every person in all of those denominations IS going to Heaven, if they believe Christ died for them, and that He is the only way to get to Heaven.

I could care less if you believe the communion bread physically becomes the broken body of Christ once you eat it - I, personally, think that's not true, but it doesn't matter - as long as you've made your binary choice, and are trying to honestly follow God.

So there are plenty of differences.. even plenty of differences as how people see our goal on earth - but the end result is the same. (According to the Bible, which should be the be-all and end-all definition of Christianity)

But the bible contradicts itself at times (including salvation by works … (though after a 1000 year period) in revelations for non believers)

Well what about without any religion at all?
You could believe in ghosts and what have you without a conventional religion to back you up, but in practice, belief in an afterlife tends to go hand in hand with religious beliefs. Since any afterlife clearly does not involve any transfer of physical material, one is pushed towards metaphysical/spiritual concepts. Even pure Spiritualism is a religion of sorts.

But the bible contradicts itself at times (including salvation by works … (though after a 1000 year period) in revelations for non believers)

I'm interested to hear where you believe these contradictions lie?

(Honestly interested - this is in no way flame, as I hope you can tell)

Secondly, the people who do INSIST on saving people's souls to save themselves have one of the most literal interpretations of the Bible around, to the point of ridiculous. That's not to say the Bible's meaningless, but if you follow it to the T, you'll find you're not even supposed to eat shellfish (see www.godhatesshrimp.com)

Not to bug you, but you did notice the small print reading "This site is a work of parody, conceived by Joe Decker and executed by Ryland Sanders." at the bottom of the site, did you?

Well, i am an apathetic agnostic, but i am a most fervent missionary, as most people at my favourite pub would confirm (they stopped using my name and just call me "Reverend". I will gladly discuss religion for hours on end and try bring people to my side of the things. So its not only christians that do the throat-stuffing. But they have a unfair advantage, with all their long history, eternal damnation and Buddy Jesus, while i just have self-determination and logic. :D

I'm interested to hear where you believe these contradictions lie?

(Honestly interested - this is in no way flame, as I hope you can tell)
Do you want a full list of bible contradictions or just dealing with salvation by works (I am looking it up but I don’t remember the verse and don’t have my notes/bible at work with me … but I think grave_n_idle posted it somewhere in the Christian thread so I will try to find) the other ones are easier for now

I don't even really need exact verses - I detest people who arbitrarily demand "exact wording" or else it's null and void.

Just kinda explain your thoughts - you can start with "salvation", I suppose, if you want. :)

I don't even really need exact verses - I detest people who arbitrarily demand "exact wording" or else it's null and void.

Just kinda explain your thoughts - you can start with "salvation", I suppose, if you want. :)
It was said and I paraphrase 'after the downfall non believers shall suffer 1000 years of pain followed by a judging based on the works that he has completed during his life'

I will try to find it because it is amazingly clear (even actualy uses works)


As for some of the others example

Matt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

I guess you've never run into Hari Krishnas at the airport.

I'm a Pentacostal, and I don't feel any need to convert anyone. I'm more than willing to help anyone who would like to convert, but it's not my place to harass you about it.

It was said and I paraphrase 'after the downfall non believers shall suffer 1000 years of pain followed by a judging based on the works that he has completed during his life'

I will try to find it because it is amazingly clear (even actualy uses works)


I'm trying to recall the verse you reference, and I'm unable to - I'm sorry.

Also, I'm a bit confused as to which point you're getting at, with the Death of Christ verses? I apologize for my confusion..

I'm trying to recall the verse you reference, and I'm unable to - I'm sorry.

Also, I'm a bit confused as to which point you're getting at, with the Death of Christ verses? I apologize for my confusion..
Biblical contradictions ... not arguing salvation by works in that situation

Ah - much clearer.

As far as that goes, recall that the four gospels are written from four different person's perspectives of one event.

It is highly likely that Christ spoke all of those words (and perhaps even more that went unrecorded), but each person "reported" (as it were) slightly differeintly - not incorrectly, just differently.

You can see that from all first-hand witnesses, in almost any case - they will each remember, or place more importance on different things.

Ah - much clearer.

As far as that goes, recall that the four gospels are written from four different person's perspectives of one event.

It is highly likely that Christ spoke all of those words (and perhaps even more that went unrecorded), but each person "reported" (as it were) slightly differeintly - not incorrectly, just differently.

You can see that from all first-hand witnesses, in almost any case - they will each remember, or place more importance on different things.
Deffinatly ... there are more

Such as josephs fauther

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

To quote Groucho Marx: I would would never join a club that would have me as a member. So as far as religion goes, practice it quietly if you want, and try to be decent to your fellow human beings.

[...]Joseph's father...

Gah. I just read about this a night or two ago in a commentary I was perusing!

Curse work, for keeping me here.

Would it be permissable to communicate to you via AIM later tonight (as by then this thread will have drifted into new waters) - or would you rather not pursue to that level of seriousness?

Gah. I just read about this a night or two ago in a commentary I was perusing!

Curse work, for keeping me here.

Would it be permissable to communicate to you via AIM later tonight (as by then this thread will have drifted into new waters) - or would you rather not discuss to that level of seriousness?
Lol its fine ... though gravy is the true biblical schollor ... I do better with logic arguements then script :p

I'm (comparitively) new to the forums, so I'm not even sure who "gravy" is - I blush at the admission!

I will refrain from taking up your time later tonight, as you wish.

I'm (comparitively) new to the forums, so I'm not even sure who "gravy" is - I blush at the admission!

I will refrain from taking up your time later tonight, as you wish.
Grave_N_Idle
he is our resident

Hebrew/aramaic/greek/latin (I think) speeking athiest lol ... loveable guy that knows what he is talking about

Nice - methinks perhaps I have, indeed, seen the name!

It also comes to my mind that the reasoning I struggle to remember runs somewhat along the lines that one of the text follows the line from Mary (ie: "Joseph, son [in-law] of X" would be more literal) while the other text regards Joseph's immediate family line.

I don't have details, lacking a photographic memory.

I'm a Jehovah's Wittness. We preach the word of God because he told as to, and because we follow Jesus' example. When people say they aren't interested, we leave them alone, and that is that. No "go to hell"'s. But we have to know that you aren't interested before we leave you alone, or else we aren't doing our job. So, if you put a sign on your door that said "im not interested, don't talk to me about the bible", we wouldnt even knock.

Nice - methinks perhaps I have, indeed, seen the name!

It also comes to my mind that the reasoning I struggle to remember runs somewhat along the lines that one of the text follows the line from Mary (ie: "Joseph, son [in-law] of X" would be more literal) while the other text regards Joseph's immediate family line.

I don't have details, lacking a photographic memory.
we can try this one as well :) (and thats ok I am just giving food for thought ... I say a lot of these are recording / translation errors but generaly christians cant seem to admit the english version they have been following could be flawed enough to lead to a misunderstanding)

II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

Annd... lunch break calls me. I suppose that I aught to do some WORK after that..

Thanks for the discussion - it's refreshing to talk to someone who isn't stupid. :rolleyes:

(an exceedingly difficult task - especially on the field of religion)

self-righteousness. when will they realise its up to the individual whether they want to be "saved" or not - shoving your views down my throat isn't going to make me think any more highly of your religion.
i COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU. i'M CHRISTIAN (ALBEIT UNITED METHODIST, WHICH VIEWS THE BIBLE AS A BOOK OF PHILOSOPHY ON HOW TO LIVE LIFE WITH HIDDEN MEANINGS IN THE STORIES and isn't as literal), and i believe that the opportunity to convert should be offered or presented, not forced. (sry, caps lock was on)

Annd... lunch break calls me. I suppose that I aught to do some WORK after that..

Thanks for the discussion - it's refreshing to talk to someone who isn't stupid. :rolleyes:

(an exceedingly difficult task - especially on the field of religion)
Yes it is ... have fun at work (that is where I am as well)

If you read the Chick tracts, the only way to get into Heaven apparently is to ensure you've converted at least one lost soul to "God".

That is not in the Bible.

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

It must be hard to have friends who care about the destination of your eternal soul.

That is not in the Bible.
you're right. it isn't. the bible says it's not a bad thing to do so, but actually, to recieve eternal life all you do is live a good life according to the bible. (which doesn't include converting ppl)

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*

They want more tithes.

you're right. it isn't. the bible says it's not a bad thing to do so, but actually, to recieve eternal life all you do is live a good life according to the bible. (which doesn't include converting ppl)

Actually, the Bible says to "believe on... Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" - not "good works".
Again, Jesus says: "I am the way [to heaven], the truth and the life - no one comes to the Father [ie: heaven] but by me"

..
So I lied.

Lunch is in 15.

Hmm...those little tracts trip me out. They're not very...optimistic in their outlook. They're just too straight-forward to even be true to me. "If you don't jump over that rock, then you shall be damned!" "AH!" "Damned you are then!" It's just insane. I laugh at some parts then all my Christian friends give me the evil eye. They're Southern Baptist bless their heart...Everything is the devil. Except for The Killers and Good Charlotte. They piss me off...

So, if you put a sign on your door that said "im not interested, don't talk to me about the bible", we wouldnt even knock.
Let me clarify. No one wants to have someones religions pushed at them and certainly not after four hours of intoxicated sleep on their days off. You should look for signs inviting you. Why do you assume you should annoy people in the sanctity of their home because they didnt defend themselves against you? If i wanted to be awake at eight o' clock in the morning on Saturdays and Sundays i would time my alarm clock.
If i am friendly i tell them that the chances of being among the 144.000 elect dont appeal to me in the face of over 3.5 million Jehovas Witnesses worldwide. On bad days i get rather unfriendly.

Let me clarify. No one wants to have someones religions pushed at them and certainly not after four hours of intoxicated sleep on their days off. You should look for signs inviting you. Why do you assume you should annoy people in the sanctity of their home because they didnt defend themselves against you? If i wanted to be awake at eight o' clock in the morning on Saturdays and Sundays i would time my alarm clock.
If i am friendly i tell them that the chances of being among the 144.000 elect dont appeal to me in the face of over 3.5 million Jehovas Witnesses worldwide. On bad days i get rather unfriendly.

They do it because it works. For every X number of people who feel like you do there is one that actually converts to their religion through the use of that strategy. Chances are the people knocking on your door were converted by people knocking on their door.

btw, if you use the 144,000 excuse that wont work because they believe that anyone can be saved. The 144,000 is the number of those who will go to heaven, not the number of those who will be saved (those who dont go to heaven stay on the restored Earth after it has been rid of all evil).

If you read the Chick tracts, the only way to get into Heaven apparently is to ensure you've converted at least one lost soul to "God".

This is actually not tru acording to the actual bible. Jesus has some sort of analogyinvolving a landowner who paid workers in his field the same amount whether the worked the entire day or the last five minutes. So it seems that your time spent as a Christian or if you convert someone or not has little ebaring on whether you'll get inot heaven.

I actually have no idea who the Chick person is. but maybe its because I'm Canadian.

They do it because it works. For every X number of people who feel like you do there is one that actually converts to their religion through the use of that strategy. Chances are the people knocking on your door were converted by people knocking on their door.

btw, if you use the 144,000 excuse that wont work because they believe that anyone can be saved. The 144,000 is the number of those who will go to heaven, not the number of those who will be saved (those who dont go to heaven stay on the restored Earth after it has been rid of all evil).

But isn't kind of a bum deal? As in if they introduce any evil, their new world kinda collapses in on itself? Just asking

But isn't kind of a bum deal? As in if they introduce any evil, their new world kinda collapses in on itself? Just asking

Well, the theory is that with Satan bound in hell for eternity, there will be no desire to do evil either. So no one will introduce evil because they wont feel any desire to do so. Not that I believe in the JW doctrine, I dont. But my best friend is a JW and I am a non-JW christian, so we've had many discussions and I am very familiar with their beleifs.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm frokma smallish town and we dont have many JW. They are there, but we get knowcked on once every 2 years maybe.

Once again, thanks

Well, the theory is that with Satan bound in hell for eternity, there will be no desire to do evil either. So no one will introduce evil because they wont feel any desire to do so. Not that I believe in the JW doctrine, I dont. But my best friend is a JW and I am a non-JW christian, so we've had many discussions and I am very familiar with their beleifs.
Intresting contrast to the Christian belief that evil is nessisary for free will to exist (though a question comes to mind ... in hevan is there free will? if so is evil required in heaven so that they can have free will) it would seem to me if god holds free will important and good then he would want thoes that did good with their lifes to posess it

So, if you put a sign on your door that said "im not interested, don't talk to me about the bible", we wouldnt even knock.
fair enough. so if you don't want to have me stop by and ring your door bell at 3:00am to tell you about the glory of Amway, you should put a sign on your door that says so.

Intresting contrast to the Christian belief that evil is nessisary for free will to exist (though a question comes to mind ... in hevan is there free will? if so is evil required in heaven so that they can have free will) it would seem to me if god holds free will important and good then he would want thoes that did good with their lifes to posess it

Who says free will is only the choice between good and evil?> And make many descions each day that do not involve universal concepts.

Who says free will is only the choice between good and evil?> And make many descions each day that do not involve universal concepts.
Im not saying that ... traditional catholic doctrine does … because without a reason such as that they cant explain why god lets evil exist.

They want to convert you for breeding purposes.

They want your -genes-. Run. Run before they begin the harvest! :eek:

:D

They want to convert you for breeding purposes.

They want your -genes-. Run. Run before they begin the harvest! :eek:

:D
Oh they can harvest all they want ;) providing adaquite "harvesters"

Im not saying that ... traditional catholic doctrine does … because without a reason such as that they cant explain why god lets evil exist.
the problem is, that "reason" is bunk. free will is completely possible without the ability to do evil things.

Exactly.... Unless cataclysmic forcces are involved in my descion to have a have a hamburger for lunch... or if my parents come to visit.

Speaking of hamburgers....

the problem is, that "reason" is bunk. free will is completely possible without the ability to do evil things.
I happen to agree (maybe we can have a true believer tell us … I normally can fight both sides of the isle but I am having issues with this one)

Yes we can make choices but not as they perceive them … to make a “good” choice you have to have the alternative “evil” choice

I happen to not think in this way but in general you need an alternative … and without bad how do you know good (sorry I am probably not cohesive at this point in my argument)

I happen to agree (maybe we can have a true believer tell us … I normally can fight both sides of the isle but I am having issues with this one)

Yes we can make choices but not as they perceive them … to make a “good” choice you have to have the alternative “evil” choice

I happen to not think in this way but in general you need an alternative … and without bad how do you know good (sorry I am probably not cohesive at this point in my argument)
the way i see it, "good" and "bad" are subjective qualities, like "delicious" and "yucky." there are choices we make in life which have nothing to do with "good" or "bad," just as there are choices we make which have nothing to do with deliciousness.

also, the ability to DO evil is not necessary for the ability to understand evil. there is no reason God would need to allow us the ability to do evil things just so that we could understand good versus evil.

the way i see it, "good" and "bad" are subjective qualities, like "delicious" and "yucky." there are choices we make in life which have nothing to do with "good" or "bad," just as there are choices we make which have nothing to do with deliciousness.

also, the ability to DO evil is not necessary for the ability to understand evil. there is no reason God would need to allow us the ability to do evil things just so that we could understand good versus evil.
You know this is really hard … you are using all my arguments against me :p (let me try)

I understand in everyday life a lot of things don’t fall into good and evil categories but to have true free will you need to be able to choose anything! Good and evil included … to choose good you have to have the alternative which is evil .. and for it to be a choice it has to exist
It is not true free will if you limit the choice to do evil by not making it an option

I understand in everyday life a lot of things don’t fall into good and evil categories but to have true free will you need to be able to choose anything!

in that case, humans don't have free will right now. there are many, many things we cannot choose. since we, therefore, do not have free will even though we currently have the ability to choose between good and evil, the ability to choose between good and evil cannot be sufficient for free will.


Good and evil included … to choose good you have to have the alternative which is evil .. and for it to be a choice it has to exist
It is not true free will if you limit the choice to do evil by not making it an option
if humans current have free will (which is debatable), then free will obviously does not require absolute freedom of choice. also, there are numerous individuals who do NOT have the ability to do evil, but we are told that all conscious humans have free will...if humans who lack the ability to take evil actions still have free will, then why do the rest of us need that ability in order to preserve our free will?

in that case, humans don't have free will right now. there are many, many things we cannot choose. since we, therefore, do not have free will even though we currently have the ability to choose between good and evil, the ability to choose between good and evil cannot be sufficient for free will.


if humans current have free will (which is debatable), then free will obviously does not require absolute freedom of choice. also, there are numerous individuals who do NOT have the ability to do evil, but we are told that all conscious humans have free will...if humans who lack the ability to take evil actions still have free will, then why do the rest of us need that ability in order to preserve our free will?
You know what I tried to argue this like 4 times and i always end up supporting your side so I am giving it a break :)

I'm a Pagan. Druidic tendencies.
I don't believe in "A" god, the devil, heaven or hell.
My Christian friends feel it's their duty to convert me!
Even though I'm old enough to work this through my self and decide what I believe myself.
My Hindu, muslim and "other" friends dont feel the same need to tell me I'll go to "hell" if I don't think what they think and do what they do.
I'm happy that all my friends are comfortable in their belief systems and respect their right to believe what they want.

Christaians don't do that in my experience.
When did Muslims or Hindus come to your door to convert you?
Why are Christians specifically so irritating?

*NOT flame bait Just puzzled*


I've never agreed with people going around trying to shove beliefs down other peoples throats either. I don't mean merely mentioning it, but continuing to after being told to stop. By them telling you that you are going to go to hell if you don't change your beliefs .. and them not respecting your wishes when you tell them to Not preach to you.. maybe you need to seperate yourself from them.

Recently my brother and his wife have joined the Jehovah Witnesses. He and I had a run in when he came to my home and started telling me everything I believe is "Chrisendom" and wrong because it wasn't taught in the Kingdom Hall.. and that everything I've ever read in the bible cannot be trusted because I read it alone without "guidance" of an "Elder" and that the spirit of God that I felt in my life was satan etc.. etc.. That pissed me off. It wasn't right of him.. and during the entirety of him running off at the mouth I never felt the presense of the Holy Spirit or God through him.

But anyway... back to what I originally was goign to post..

I worked with a friend who was muslim. Alot of our views on life and the world were similar. We'd talk about the old testament and the quaran sometimes. It never even occured to me in mind or spirit to tell him his belief in Jesus as being merely a prophet was wrong. I never looked upon him as being wrong either. I respected him and we carried on intelligent , positive conversations. No way I'd have the odacity to put his belief down. He never trodded on my belief in Jesus but one time... I stopped him there and told him I don't dispute your belief, please don't dispute mine. He respected that and it didn't come between us. We still talked alot.

He was a friend and a good hearted guy and his faith brought him out of negative habits and ways he was in prior, the same as my faith did me. It would be wrong for me to slander something that is obvioulsy bringing positivity and happiness into someones life.

I'm a Jehovah's Wittness. We preach the word of God because he told as to, and because we follow Jesus' example. When people say they aren't interested, we leave them alone, and that is that. No "go to hell"'s. But we have to know that you aren't interested before we leave you alone, or else we aren't doing our job. So, if you put a sign on your door that said "im not interested, don't talk to me about the bible", we wouldnt even knock.

Cool! I guess I'll paint Satanic symbols on my door, would that work?

Oh, wait, I live in FRIGGIN' ALABAMA! :mad: If I did that they'd burn my house down while I slept! :headbang:

I've never agreed with people going around trying to shove beliefs down other peoples throats either. I don't mean merely mentioning it, but continuing to after being told to stop. By them telling you that you are going to go to hell if you don't change your beliefs .. and them not respecting your wishes when you tell them to Not preach to you.. maybe you need to seperate yourself from them.

Recently my brother and his wife have joined the Jehovah Witnesses. He and I had a run in when he came to my home and started telling me everything I believe is "Chrisendom" and wrong because it wasn't taught in the Kingdom Hall.. and that everything I've ever read in the bible cannot be trusted because I read it alone without "guidance" of an "Elder" and that the spirit of God that I felt in my life was satan etc.. etc.. That pissed me off. It wasn't right of him.. and during the entirety of him running off at the mouth I never felt the presense of the Holy Spirit or God through him.

But anyway... back to what I originally was goign to post..

I worked with a friend who was muslim. Alot of our views on life and the world were similar. We'd talk about the old testament and the quaran sometimes. It never even occured to me in mind or spirit to tell him his belief in Jesus as being merely a prophet was wrong. I never looked upon him as being wrong either. I respected him and we carried on intelligent , positive conversations. No way I'd have the odacity to put his belief down. He never trodded on my belief in Jesus but one time... I stopped him there and told him I don't dispute your belief, please don't dispute mine. He respected that and it didn't come between us. We still talked alot.

He was a friend and a good hearted guy and his faith brought him out of negative habits and ways he was in prior, the same as my faith did me. It would be wrong for me to slander something that is obvioulsy bringing positivity and happiness into someones life.
What a refreshing attitude to life.
I meet a lot of Pagans who feel the way you do.
How can what you believe be bad or wrong if it harms no one else and makes you happy.
Wish everyone else was the same.