NationStates Jolt Archive

Currently they have their annual sabre rattling event - the session of the National Congress.

The environment looks, smells and tastes bad, the health system is bad, unemployment rising, qualified staff missing everywhere, nationalism is encouraged by the government.

The state owned banks amass huge amounts of non-performing loans and are bailed out by the state every two or three years, but in 2006 foreign banks will be able to do business with local people in local currency and foreign currency, people might shift their savings.

Car sales are rising, more oil is needed, which needs to be imported. There is a huge energy shortage, and demand for coal is high, leading to transport bottlenecks, switch from railway to roads, more trucks, demand for steel and coal rising again, market price for ore, coal and oil rises - leading to higher import costs. Soon the import costs will eat the export gain and the forex reserves will decline rapidly.


When comes the breaking point?
When will the government see their only hope in saving their ass in a war with Taiwan?

You're seeing what every country in Europe has already gone through. The problem when you have an agricultural-based economy go Communist is that the system was made for already-industrialized economies, where the means of production are already there and can belong to the people. China didn't have that, so they had to push for heavy industrialization. This ruins the environment entirely and inevitably begins a steady decline of infrastructure, because of all the slow-coming side-effects when you push to industrialize too fast - look at Russia for example, which underwent the same thing China is, except China is economically successful. Keep in mind, Marxist Communism was originally meant for Germany or Britain. Russia would've been the last place Marx thought Communism would first take hold, let alone China.

America and Canada got lucky for the environment because they had a smarter system of industrialization and more land to do it with. Britain ended up completely ruining their enviroment by consuming vast quantities of coal in a small area, Italy ended up nearly depleting their entire supply of lumber... Industrialization at fast paces can easily ruin a lot of things if people don't step lightly.

The People's Republic of China does not have the capability to invade Taiwan.

The People's Republic of China does not have the capability to invade Taiwan.


They know that the whole fucking world will invade their sorry asses if they do.

They know that the whole fucking world will invade their sorry asses if they do.
No, thats not going to happen. The US might try to thwart the invasion of Taiwan but there is no way the US would be crazy enough to invade the mainland.

Yeah, I suppose you're correct. I can imagine what shit our guys would get into.

Yeah, I suppose you're correct. I can imagine what shit our guys would get into.
Yeah I don't think anyone really gives a shit about Taiwan. The Bush administration has been constantly reaffirming the "one China" policy. Nobody wants to piss off China and screw up the global economy for some stupid little Island.

Yeah, but that "stupid little island" is how China should have been. It's how it would have been if Mao didn't take hold.

At least it deserves some independence.

Yeah, but that "stupid little island" is how China should have been. It's how it would have been if Mao didn't take hold.

At least it deserves some independence.
Nah, China has done remarkably well considering how poor they started. Sure Mao's syphillis induced insanity caused some problems and they had a lost decade or so with the Cultural revolution, and but since then they have had like 9 percent a year economic growth rates.

Yeah, that is pretty damn admirable.

Well, if they do take Taiwan, and do as they did with Hong Kong, then it should be fine. Hong Kong really hasn't even changed since it was taken by China in 1997.

Chinas claim of taiwan is a completely rediculous illigitimate imperialistic claim. The elite of pre-maoist china fled to Taiwan to escape. China wants taiwan for purely econonomic imperialistic purposes.

China likely wants Taiwan likely for it's high tech industry and knowlege to nationalize it to further chinese interests. In a purely global realpolitik game, this is likely very unappealing to the west.

If I recall correctly the US has some specific treaty requirements that included the protection of Taiwan. If the US were to stick to it's principles it would pretty much have to send just about every Sub and carrier into the sea between china and taiwan to prevent a naval invasion. the US has the power to stop chinas fleet. But china has the nukes to blackmail the US by threatening to take out the west coast....

Naturally as a current west coast denizen, i would very much object to this....

What I don't understand is why people consider economy to be the end all and be all of that which is virtuous.

What ever happened to self-determination. What ever happened to democracy? China is an oppresive unaccountable dictatorship. The only reason you cannot fight it is because they have the worlds largest army and a set of nukes in range of the west coast US.

Taiwan on the other hand has a government that is accountable to its people and a stable economy. This is respectable. Dictatorship is not.

I guess this shows where one's ethics lay....

Yeah, but that "stupid little island" is how China should have been. It's how it would have been if Mao didn't take hold.

At least it deserves some independence.

You forget that it was not always free and democratic either. Jiang Jieshi (Chiang Kai-shek) was Tiawan's dictator into the seventies. It wasn't until after he died that Tiawan had democratic elections.

And Hong Kong has changed. Many believe the recently elected pro-Beijing government was actually just installed by the CCP. Although the head did resign recently, if I remember correctly.

Here is my spiel on what is going to go down:

(1) I read a while ago that the Taiwan Air Force is huge....I mean HUGE.
(2) I read that the U.S. is backing up, supporting, and aiding Taiwan. So it is probably also going to protect it
(3) As big an army that China has, and no matter how many nukes it has it will not launch them. It will wait for the U.S. to be foolish. See if China launches, then the U.S. will, I am thinking some other nations will jump in for the heck of it too. (i.e. Russia, Israel, Japland, and so on)

Soooo...China will rush to invade Taiwan with no warning at all.
1.The U.S. will come in.
2.The E.U. realizes the power China has and moves in with warnings and passing laws, NAPs, and stuff. Eventually the E.U. will end up on one side or the other (think America's pro-allies nutrality during world war 2)
3.Russia sees a chance to get a bite of the big apple.
4.Japanese will think they have another chance at mainland China.
5.NATO might get sucked in.
6.North Korea and South Korea will duke it out, as well as North/South Vietnam.
7.China will get pushed out of Taiwan, but most likely after it has massacred many Taiwanese, S. Koreans, S. Vietnamese, U.S. soldiers, and etc.
8. Nukes might (read: might) be launched, if China holds out too long.
9. China will be split into 4 halves:
North China, held by Communist Russia.
South China, held by Islamic Fundamentalist/Buddhist/Hindu India.
East China, held by Democratic Taiwan and Japanland.
West China, held by the E.U. (but the E.U. will have to fight in the courts and agreements for it since Communist Russia is closer to that place)


My disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about.

The Doors Corporation - Your sig (at least I assume that's your sig) says it all.

This topic really is kind of silly...

China can't invade Taiwan until they build the amphibious assault and landing ships to do so. They currently have NO CHANCE if they attempt what limited seaborne landings they can attempt, even if coupled with massive airborne drops.

You can't hide ships of that size either, if you decide to build them. Not from a spy satelite...

So the world will know what China's up to a good 6 to 10 years before it happens...

It hasn't happened yet...and it's not likely to. China doesn't want to blow Taiwan up...it want's to take it over...but it can't, EVER.

The Doors Corporation - Your sig (at least I assume that's your sig) says it all.



My sig says it all?? or you mean my disclaimer? I like the way you think, and you are right that if China doesn't have the ships, then it can't do it.

The Doors Corporation - Your sig (at least I assume that's your sig) says it all.

This topic really is kind of silly...

China can't invade Taiwan until they build the amphibious assault and landing ships to do so. They currently have NO CHANCE if they attempt what limited seaborne landings they can attempt, even if coupled with massive airborne drops.

You can't hide ships of that size either, if you decide to build them. Not from a spy satelite...

So the world will know what China's up to a good 6 to 10 years before it happens...

It hasn't happened yet...and it's not likely to. China doesn't want to blow Taiwan up...it want's to take it over...but it can't, EVER.

If it's as easy as you make it sound, then why haven't the Taiwanese already seceded and declared their independence?

interesting

First of all, there is already lot's of economic cooperation between Taiwan and mainland China. Basically said, i think it's only a matter of time until the reunification (i.e. annexation by mainland China) will occur. It's sad for the Taiwanese, i agree, but i doubt anybody will be able to do anything against it.

Another point is that the US are on the way down. I have to reinforce the argument here that the US have the largest financial deficit in history, and thus i assume in a few years they won't be capable of maintaing all their forces in South Korea and Japan (they are more busy in the Middle East, anyways). Japan will probably switch sides by then and become China's ally (I know it would be irony of history, but i doubt that the Japanese would have any other chance). I don't know what will happen with North Korea, but probably there will be some kind of enforced solution by China.

Lastly, if the US would really want a war with China (a conflict that definitly has potential for a nuclear war) because of Taiwan, they gotta be insane.

Oh, and something else for your amusement: I suppose, the day when Fidel Castro dies, Cuba becomes the 51st state of the USA. :D

When will China invadeTaiwan?

China can takeOver Taiwan, the minute China gets a few French Class Submarines.

I hope China never does attack.

Yeah I don't think anyone really gives a shit about Taiwan. The Bush administration has been constantly reaffirming the "one China" policy. Nobody wants to piss off China and screw up the global economy for some stupid little Island.That's the problem. The U.S. has been treating China as the schoolyard bully that could beat its ass if it doesn't hand over its lunch money.

What the U.S. SHOULD be doing is conducting military exercises to send China the message, "you fuck with us and you'll see what you get." If there's any country in the world that the U.S. should consider an enemy and a potential threat, it's China.

That's the problem. The U.S. has been treating China as the schoolyard bully that could beat its ass if it doesn't hand over its lunch money.

What the U.S. SHOULD be doing is conducting military exercises to send China the message, "you fuck with us and you'll see what you get." If there's any country in the world that the U.S. should consider an enemy and a potential threat, it's China.

True. We shouldn't be messing around with non-threatening nations such as Iraq.

Lastly, if the US would really want a war with China (a conflict that definitly has potential for a nuclear war) because of Taiwan, they gotta be insane.
very Few Countries can deliver Nukes to the USA, Russia, France, China, UK.
maybe...Israel? NK?

The Pentagon Probably has some estimates as to how many nukes they can nullify...

I think the Best case scenario for China is "the US can nullify 95% of their Nukes".
What do you all think?

very Few Countries can deliver Nukes to the USA, Russia, France, China, UK, `<<<this ones im not sure...Israel? NK?

The Pentagon Probably has some estimates as to how many nukes they can nullify...

I think the Best case scenario for China is "the US can nullify 95% of their Nukes".
What do you all think?
About right...

No, thats not going to happen. The US might try to thwart the invasion of Taiwan but there is no way the US would be crazy enough to invade the mainland.
We don't need to invade the mainland to thwart a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Only sink the entire PLAN fleet and shoot down any aircraft that try to reach Taiwan. A couple of carrier battle groups could do that without too much trouble.

We don't need to invade the mainland to thwart a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Only sink the entire PLAN fleet and shoot down any aircraft that try to reach Taiwan. A couple of carrier battle groups could do that without too much trouble.
Interesting. Very possible, but it can be avoided with no war at all.

Interesting. Very possible, but it can be avoided with no war at all.
Which would be the best option. But I'm just saying that China at this stage simply doesn't have the technology to invade Taiwan.

Here is my spiel on what is going to go down:

(1) I read a while ago that the Taiwan Air Force is huge....I mean HUGE.
(2) I read that the U.S. is backing up, supporting, and aiding Taiwan. So it is probably also going to protect it
(3) As big an army that China has, and no matter how many nukes it has it will not launch them. It will wait for the U.S. to be foolish. See if China launches, then the U.S. will, I am thinking some other nations will jump in for the heck of it too. (i.e. Russia, Israel, Japland, and so on)

Soooo...China will rush to invade Taiwan with no warning at all.
1.The U.S. will come in.
2.The E.U. realizes the power China has and moves in with warnings and passing laws, NAPs, and stuff. Eventually the E.U. will end up on one side or the other (think America's pro-allies nutrality during world war 2)
3.Russia sees a chance to get a bite of the big apple.
4.Japanese will think they have another chance at mainland China.
5.NATO might get sucked in.
6.North Korea and South Korea will duke it out, as well as North/South Vietnam.
7.China will get pushed out of Taiwan, but most likely after it has massacred many Taiwanese, S. Koreans, S. Vietnamese, U.S. soldiers, and etc.
8. Nukes might (read: might) be launched, if China holds out too long.
9. China will be split into 4 halves:
North China, held by Communist Russia.
South China, held by Islamic Fundamentalist/Buddhist/Hindu India.
East China, held by Democratic Taiwan and Japanland.
West China, held by the E.U. (but the E.U. will have to fight in the courts and agreements for it since Communist Russia is closer to that place)


My disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about.


Your assesment of Russia is incorrect. Russia and China have several treaties, it is highly unlikely that we would interfere. By the way, we're not communist anymore. It's been damn near 14 years and you people still haven't gotten the idea yet.

As it is, the thing that stops China from invading Taiwan is the US 7th Fleet. The USN is far more advanced and could cause logistical hell for China if they tried to cross the Formosa Straight by boat. An Airborne drop is difficult because of the US Navy's air capabilities.

Good God man, your idea reads like an assesment from the 70's. There is no South or North Vietnam anymore, the CCCP no longer exists, Japan doesn't have the military capabilities to wage a full scale war. They're capable of defending their homeland, that's about it. But they would be highly effective defending Japan as well.

Your assesment of Russia is incorrect. Russia and China have several treaties....Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt Russia and Iraq had a mutual defense treaty? (in Gulf WarI)

Correct me if I am wrong, but didnt Russia and Iraq had a mutual defense treaty? (in Gulf WarI)


No, as far as I remember, the CCCP voted for military action to be taken against Iraq in the UN Security Council.

If you want to see live debate that the BBC broadcast from Shanghai, with 2 Chinese government ministers included on the panel, which touched on this subject (the reasoning behind and likelihood of invasion) go to this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=404232)and follow the links to be able to watch the programme.

Watch the ministers squirm when they hit the touchy subjects. Chris Patten performs magnificently and there is some serious human rights stuff too.

very Few Countries can deliver Nukes to the USA, Russia, France, China, UK.
maybe...Israel? NK?

The Pentagon Probably has some estimates as to how many nukes they can nullify...

I think the Best case scenario for China is "the US can nullify 95% of their Nukes".
What do you all think?

First of all, list of countries that possess nuclear weapons and approximate amount of nuclear weapons:
China - ca. 300-400
France - ca. 350
India ca. 60-90?
Israel ca. 300-400?
North Korea - ??? (to be honest, i doubt it)
Russia - ca. 8,000
Pakistan - ca. 30-40
UK - ca. 250
USA - ca. 10,000

Now, think for yourself, even if you neutralize 95% out of 300-400 (which i believe is an exaggeration), that would be 15-20 hits, enough to destroy quite a number of larger cities in the US or elsewhere - even if you are thinking about the smaller ones (look what that bomb did to Hiroshima - and it sure was one of the smaller ones). Usage of nuclear weapons would be something *very ugly*, and everybody should be aware of that. :mad:

When comes the breaking point?
When will the government see their only hope in saving their ass in a war with Taiwan?

When you change your name to Hung Well, Long Wang, or Enormous Genitals...

First of all, list of countries that possess nuclear weapons and approximate amount of nuclear weapons:
China - ca. 300-400
France - ca. 350
India ca. 60-90?
Israel ca. 300-400?
North Korea - ??? (to be honest, i doubt it)
Russia - ca. 8,000
Pakistan - ca. 30-40
UK - ca. 250
USA - ca. 10,000

Now, think for yourself, even if you neutralize 95% out of 300-400 (which i believe is an exaggeration), that would be 15-20 hits, enough to destroy quite a number of larger cities in the US or elsewhere - even if you are thinking about the smaller ones (look what that bomb did to Hiroshima - and it sure was one of the smaller ones). Usage of nuclear weapons would be something *very ugly*, and everybody should be aware of that. :mad:
China has many warheads but only like a dozen ICBMS which can hit the US. Japan would be finished though.

What exactly would the United States nullify ICBMs with? All I can think of is that we'd hit them before they got off the ground. I thought that our attempts at hitting missiles in midair so far were laughable.

First of all, list of countries that possess nuclear weapons and approximate amount of nuclear weapons:
China - ca. 300-400
France - ca. 350
India ca. 60-90?
Israel ca. 300-400?
North Korea - ??? (to be honest, i doubt it)
Russia - ca. 8,000
Pakistan - ca. 30-40
UK - ca. 250
USA - ca. 10,000
:mad:
Its not only about the numbers...Its mostly about the DELIVERY...

The way I see it only Russia and France can Wipe-out all major US metro areas.
UK probably can too.

China? maybe a few...if they are lucky.

Israel?
India?
Pakinstan?
NK?
I dont think so...buy I am no expert.

True. We shouldn't be messing around with non-threatening nations such as Iraq.


Iraq isnt threatening? Have you forgoten about the 3,000 American lives killed on 9/11 Iraq houses terrorists that wants to attack America like that. also not to mention the millions of innocent lives he has gassed. No Iraq was a threat and Saddaum was a horrible leader that should not have that power.

What exactly would the United States nullify ICBMs with? All I can think of is that we'd hit them before they got off the ground. I thought that our attempts at hitting missiles in midair so far were laughable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegis_combat_system

What exactly would the United States nullify ICBMs with? All I can think of is that we'd hit them before they got off the ground. I thought that our attempts at hitting missiles in midair so far were laughable.the "missile shield systems" work only against a few missiles...Maybe can stop China...

But they would be useles against Russia or France...or even UK.

I dont know about the Israel ICBM capabilities.

What exactly would the United States nullify ICBMs with? All I can think of is that we'd hit them before they got off the ground. I thought that our attempts at hitting missiles in midair so far were laughable.

You need to be better read.

The PAC-3 is operational, and deployed in South Korea. It worked in combat in Operation Iraqi Freedom (so well, in fact, that it demonstrated an automatic computer initiated ripple fire against multiple ballistic missile targets).

The SM-3 is a completely separate missile, designed for AEGIS cruisers. It is operational as well, and passed its tests. It is aboard a ship off the coast of North Korea, and several other ships in the Pacific are similarly equipped. Soon, all AEGIS ships will have the missile and the software. This missile is also capable of mid-course intercept, and has proven to be able to do that even in sea state 5 (in the middle of a good storm).

The missile you read about with the problems is the Ground Based Interceptor, or GBI. The missile in question works - the ground radar works - the SBIRS - Low satellite that distinguishes between decoys and real warheads works - but the battle management software that links the whole system together has bugs - the problem arises when you want the battle management software to fire the missile. It has been designed to operate under full computer control, as they do not believe a human has the reaction time necessary. So the last few attempts have resulted in a missile sitting in the silo, unlaunched.

But, if it follows the track of the other systems, which are similarly automated, it will probably be successful as well.

In addition, the Airborne Laser is scheduled to be operational this year. It is 400% more powerful than expected, and the pointing apparatus has already been tested in flight, and the laser has already been test fired at full power.

Next?

China knows better then to attack Tiwann. If that were to happen then American forces would decimate the Chinese Air Forces and Navy. The Chinese best Fighter is probably comparable to and F-16 at best while the U.S considers the F-16 out dated. As for the Chinese Army, yes it is large but it is also ill equiped and ill trained as the USMC or the Army is very well trained and very well equiped. Along with that after the Chinese Navy and Air force is destroyed it will rely on Nukes but again they know that if they use them then they will have the Entire world on their ass.

And to clear up if China can hit the U.S or not. China has the longest Range ICBM in the world. It could easily reach Vegas. But it is most likly that if war was to break out the first thing the U.S would go for are the Chinese missile Silos destroying their capability to launch nukes at anyone. And eventually their NAvy and Air Froce will be destroyed leaving only the Chinese Army which will be bombed to hell until it is almost completly destroyed.

The chinese will never invade Tiwann.

In addition, the Airborne Laser is scheduled to be operational this year. It is 400% more powerful than expected, and the pointing apparatus has already been tested in flight, and the laser has already been test fired at full power.

Next?
Where can one find more info about this airborne laser? It sounds interesting.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/flash.html

Iraq isnt threatening? Have you forgoten about the 3,000 American lives killed on 9/11 Iraq houses terrorists that wants to attack America like that. also not to mention the millions of innocent lives he has gassed. No Iraq was a threat and Saddaum was a horrible leader that should not have that power.

To all people who still believe it: 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. Seriously. I know that Saddam was an ugly evil dictator and really nobody misses him (and also the invasion will turn out as something reasonable in the long-term), but he was not affiliated with the 9/11 terrorists. When will you ever learn it? :headbang:

Iraq isnt threatening? Have you forgoten about the 3,000 American lives killed on 9/11 Iraq houses terrorists that wants to attack America like that.We ougth to Bomb Iraq and Afghanistan because they house terrorists that want to attack US like that?

is that rigth?

To all people who still believe it: 9/11 had absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. Seriously. I know that Saddam was an ugly evil dictator and really nobody misses him (and also the invasion will turn out as something reasonable in the long-term), but he was in not affiliated with the 9/11 terrorists. When will you ever learn it? :headbang:

i know. what i mean is that Saddaum Hussein supported Terrorism that wanted to do the samething.

i know. what i mean is that Saddaum Hussein supported Terrorism that wanted to do the samething.
he was late, wasent him? :D

this is as good a place as any its a WW2 Game

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Great_Wa...dex.php?act=idx

this is as good a place as any its a WW2 Game

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Great_Wa...dex.php?act=idx

LINKo esta pura mielda.

We ougth to Bomb Iraq and Afghanistan because they house terrorists that want to attack US like that?

is that rigth?

No, it's more like this:

Years ago, the Europeans drew a bunch of lines on the map of the Middle East. They told some of the new countries who their leaders would be. They even created a few new states.

After everything was screwed up, the US and the Europeans exploited the Middle East for oil - and since this was during the Cold War, the Soviets helped screw everything up some more - after all, the whole place is a strategic resource to EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

So, after the place was REALLY screwed up, the Europeans kept wringing their hands, saying, "Oh, please why doesn't somebody do something about the messed up Middle East?"

And then some angry guys flew some planes into some US buildings.

So, the US thought for a minute, and decided to re-arrange the landscape. For a minute there, the Europeans were afraid that the US would nuke something, but it was OK.

We're still re-arranging the landscape. Yes, 9-11 was the beginning, but we notice that the Middle East could use some more redecorating.

If you want to help, you should join in on the redecorating. Otherwise, stay out of the house until we're done.

i dont speak spanish. Je Parle Francais. Est Anglais. Mais je Parle pas de Espanol.

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Great_War_2/index.php?act=idx

try this one if the first one didnt work.

i dont speak spanish. Je Parle Francais. Est Anglais. Mais je Parle pas de Espanol.
to LINK c est de mermelade postdate de 1978 (c est de la merde) :D

ca marche pas!!

http://s9.invisionfree.com/Great_War_2/index.php?act=idx

try this one if the first one didnt work.
bon, la c est de la bonne mermelade.

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU PEOPLE SMOKING?

Do you know how bad the Taiwan government is?

They elected a convicted killer and gang member to the senate for gods sake!

Just because the Chinese government has had a history of repressing civil rights, that dosen't mean they are a dictatorship. Read up on the damn deffinition, a dictatorship is run by one man, China is run by one party. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Have you actually visited China? It is more then just civil rights oppression, it's a beautiful land filled with hard working, good people.

College Education is free and is ALOT better then the United State's System of Partying, Drinking and half-assed education.

In college dorms there are three students, one student was previously a farmer, one student previously a factory worker and one student from the military. There isn't no intellectual or religious elite, everyone views themselves as on the same level.

Face it, it's a better society with less crime, higher work and education standards, and the government, while reform is slow, is dedicated to serving the people and eliminating corruption.

And you have the nerve to call China a Dictatorship?

God you are IGNORANT. I AM SO SICK OF THE INVADE EVERYONE WHO IS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THEN THE UNITED STATES.

GO EAT A CHEESE BURGER AND HAVE A HEART ATTACK.

I work half the day on the staff of a democratic state senator, I see some stupid crap, but I always leave work feeling like the United States is a great country filled with great people.

But then I read the brain washed dribble you guys put up on this board.

Seriously, I hope you get kicked out of the country just so you find out what the rest of the world is like.

Jackasses.

No, it's more like this:

Years ago, the Europeans drew a bunch of lines on the map of the Middle East. They told some of the new countries who their leaders would be. They even created a few new states.

After everything was screwed up, the US and the Europeans exploited the Middle East for oil - and since this was during the Cold War, the Soviets helped screw everything up some more - after all, the whole place is a strategic resource to EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

So, after the place was REALLY screwed up, the Europeans kept wringing their hands, saying, "Oh, please why doesn't somebody do something about the messed up Middle East?"

And then some angry guys flew some planes into some US buildings.

So, the US thought for a minute, and decided to re-arrange the landscape. For a minute there, the Europeans were afraid that the US would nuke something, but it was OK.

We're still re-arranging the landscape. Yes, 9-11 was the beginning, but we notice that the Middle East could use some more redecorating.

If you want to help, you should join in on the redecorating. Otherwise, stay out of the house until we're done.

Crazy. :eek:

To your information, the US is running out of their money (in the case you didn't know it - going to war - especially with the technologically most advanced military in the world - is something very expensive. It won't work for much longer. The US will likely go bancrupt on this. And look at the situation in Iraq: things are pretty vietnamesque already.
I'm afraid that this "restructuration" will only end up in the establishment of a few more fundamentalist weirdo states that care a **** over democracy and human rights - and probably a few centuries more of Medieval Ages for that region. :mad:

GO EAT A CHEESE BURGER AND HAVE A HEART ATTACK.
Hey, mottafakka, If you are going to insult US, at least do it Properly,
You are supposed to say:

"GO EAT A BigMac AND HAVE A HEART ATTACK." :D

Like Johnny always says:
Amerika: "Land of the Free, Home of the Whopper" :D :D

Us Americans kinda need to stay out of everyone elses business. I support our troops 100%, but as a nation, we really need to concentrate on things that are going on in our own country. Everyone thinks that America is so rich, but the truth is, there are a few guys who are REALLY rich and everyone else is poor.

I had a big mac today. :)

Proof that I am just an American who hates dumb Americans. :D

I had a big mac today. :)

Proof that I am just an American who hates dumb Americans. :D

I dont hate the Bushites, I sometimes just laugh at them.

and I mostly laugh at the ChimpPrezident.

I cry when I think about all the voters who could rather give a crap, who read maybe a news paper article or two, watch a catchy campaign ad and go vote for the guy with the better sounding name who invokes the word of God in every speech, always assuming god is on his side.

They say, oh well, maybe we were wrong, but gas prices will be high for four years, that's all.

They don't care about the people that man they elected is killing, innocent people, not terrorists.

But the GOP says they are terrorists, so it's ALRIGHT.

Then I think about our collapsing economy, defecit and over extended, once glorious military, the smoldering ruins of a nation that did exactly what the terrorists wanted.

Then I cry some more.

China will do nothing to Taiwan. They know the U.S. would react with economic measures. The Chinese economy depends on exports to the U.S. The only way China could get away with attacking Taiwan is if Taiwan attacks China first. That is not likely.

China WILL re-absorb Taiwan, one way or another.

It's basically a civil war that never ended, if we prevent China from re-absorbing Taiwan, it would be the same as saying the North should have just let the South leave the Union.

Taiwan is not legally an indepedant soverign nation.

Trust me, I've sat in with Taiwanese ambassadors. They know this. They would just rather end up like Hong Kong.

Liberal Rationality is quite right about the economic links, though I suspect that it actually may work both ways. If China was to leap into Taiwan (a big if, given its capability), then the US might actually baulk at a war because it would itself lose a great deal of trade. China would be hit harder, but American governments would care more about it.

I believe that it's correct that Taiwan is not generally recognised by most states as a country, including the USA as of 1979. (I think). However, as the USA has bound itself not to allow Taiwan to be taken by force in any case, by the Taiwan Relations Act, this is a technicality.

http://www.taiwandocuments.org/tra02.htm

If Taiwan elects to rejoin China then the US won't stop it, but it will retain its deterrent in the region for as long as need be otherwise, I should expect.

China WILL re-absorb Taiwan, one way or another.

It's basically a civil war that never ended, if we prevent China from re-absorbing Taiwan, it would be the same as saying the North should have just let the South leave the Union.

Taiwan is not legally an indepedant soverign nation.

Trust me, I've sat in with Taiwanese ambassadors. They know this. They would just rather end up like Hong Kong.

Well..... Taiwan fullfills both the Constitutive Theory of Statehood and the Declarative Theory of Statehood. I've yet to be informed of a third standard. So yeah, while there is little basis for saying Taiwan isn't an independent soveregin state, there's quite a bit of academical grounds for saying Taiwan is a de facto sovereign state.

At the moment, the anti-china feeling in Taiwan is climbing higher than ever. Do you realize that over 50% of the Taiwanese teens (the 7th Graders, born 1981-1990..... Don't ask me why) would rather Taiwan become a US territory then accept the 1-nation-2-systems mode? There's even more support for joining Japan then 'reunification' with China. And this trend intensifies as one goes lower down the age group.

Cross-Strait Relations are much more complex then just a Civil War. And its a lot different to the American Civil War too. The Current PRC has never ever exercized rule or sovereignty over Taiwan. In fact throughout the last 110 years, there has been only a 4 year period in which Taiwan fell under the jurisdiction of mainland China. The South was part of the United States of America, along with the North, before 1861. Even prior to being sceded to Japan in 1895, the Qing court only ruled a strip of land on the eastern Coast of Taiwan.

I mean, if a civil war broke out in America, and (say) the Republicans lost and fled with the USA to Iraq, while the Democrats established the Confederacy of American States on the continent, will the CAS be justified in forcing the USA/Iraq nation to 'reunify' with it, after 50 odd years?