NationStates Jolt Archive

I am not an anti-semite, never have been, never will be. Some of my best friends are jewish. Nor am I, in any way, promoting or supporting what was done to jewish people in the Holocaust. The death, torture and horror perpretraited by the nazis was evil, terrible and a blight on our history and humanity that we may never be able to erase, to make up for. So, that out of the way, I have a question.

Would Europe and North America, most of the world, in fact, still be anti-semitic if the holocaust had not happened?

As most people know, most nations in the world, more specifically in Europe and North America, were rabidly anti-semitic before the second world war. Jewish people were seen to be no better than gypsys, with no real country of their own, and they killed Christ. (yet again, not my opinion, don't pin that on me).

The holocaust devestated the jewish people, killing a large percentage of the populaton(I don't know the exact figure), millions of lives. The devestation and the horror touched the entire world, leading to the forced creation of Isreal.

My question is, if this had not happened, if we had not been touched by this, would we still see jewish people in the same way?

EDIT: By this, I mean would anti-semitism be as rampant, accepted and, even, expected as it was then. There are still, obviously, anti-semites, but not mearly as many of them as there were, and they are less ready to express their views. Would anti-semitism have diminished as much as it has without the holocaust.

I am not an anti-semite, never have been, never will be. Some of my best friends are jewish. Nor am I, in any way, promoting or supporting what was done to jewish people in the Holocaust. The death, torture and horror perpretraited by the nazis was evil, terrible and a blight on our history and humanity that we may never be able to erase, to make up for. So, that out of the way, I have a question.

Would Europe and North America, most of the world, in fact, still be anti-semitic if the holocaust had not happened?

As most people know, most nations in the world, more specifically in Europe and North America, were rabidly anti-semitic before the second world war. Jewish people were seen to be no better than gypsys, with no real country of their own, and they killed Christ. (yet again, not my opinion, don't pin that on me).

The holocaust devestated the jewish people, killing a large percentage of the populaton(I don't know the exact figure), millions of lives. The devestation and the horror touched the entire world, leading to the forced creation of Isreal.

My question is, if this had not happened, if we had not been touched by this, would we still see jewish people in the same way?

I don't think, so and I'll tell you why. During the holocaust and even after it, most western nations had anti-semitic immigration laws. I think the gradual shift towards tolerance is a result of societal evolution, not the holocaust.

People have been anti-Semitic since there were Semites (That is, middle eastern people).

Racism has never been lacking in the species since we invented the notion of races.

Yes. The Jews have been obliterated by all kinds of people throughout history. Before the Holocaust there was the Pogorms which killed considerably a lot more Jews.

I think it would depend a lot on the social climate, as well as cultural evolution in each country.

If the question is: "Would Middle East politics be less complicated if Isreal hadn't been created?" I'd be inclined to say "definitely."

If the question is, "Would there be anti-Semitism in the world if the Holocaust hadn't happened?" I'd be inclined to say "huh?"

As long as you've got people who are easily identified as the other, be they black slaves in America or Jews in Germany or Hutu or Tutsi or whatever, you're going to have people exploiting that difference via racism, via discrimination, via disenfranchisement, via genocide.

A reply question is: "There was anti-Semitism before the Holocaust. If the Holocaust was not sufficiently shocking to eliminate it, why would it have vanished without the Holocaust?"

I am not an anti-semite, never have been, never will be. Some of my best friends are jewish. Nor am I, in any way, promoting or supporting what was done to jewish people in the Holocaust. The death, torture and horror perpretraited by the nazis was evil, terrible and a blight on our history and humanity that we may never be able to erase, to make up for. So, that out of the way, I have a question.
Would Europe and North America, most of the world, in fact, still be anti-semitic if the holocaust had not happened?
As most people know, most nations in the world, more specifically in Europe and North America, were rabidly anti-semitic before the second world war. Jewish people were seen to be no better than gypsys, with no real country of their own, and they killed Christ. (yet again, not my opinion, don't pin that on me).
The holocaust devestated the jewish people, killing a large percentage of the populaton(I don't know the exact figure), millions of lives. The devestation and the horror touched the entire world, leading to the forced creation of Isreal.
My question is, if this had not happened, if we had not been touched by this, would we still see jewish people in the same way?
First of all one must distinguish between an irrational hate for Jews (as members of an "ethnic" group) that has been around for quite a while now and the well-founded rejection of Judaism as a religion and as a concept of living and human interaction. I for my part will not forgive the spreading of the teachings as expressed in the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. And I despise people who follow this wrong conception and perception of humanity and the world around it. That also includes the followers of the religions that are derived from Judaism like Christianity and Islam. Too much time and development potential has been lost for mankind due to the cult of Yah.
Personally I also have not yet reached a final judgement on the holocaust. Somehow I see it as the gruesome implementation of an ideological boomerang that has come back to the Jews after 3000 years of teaching the world how the value of a human being is determined by descent/lineage.

Yes. The Jews have been obliterated by all kinds of people throughout history. Before the Holocaust there was the Pogorms which killed considerably a lot more Jews.
I would love to see the evidence to yet another lie.

I would love to see the evidence to yet another lie.

Dude. You're giving Poles everywhere a bad name.

First of all one must distinguish between an irrational hate for Jews (as members of an "ethnic" group) that has been around for quite a while now and the well-founded rejection of Judaism as a religion and as a concept of living and human interaction. I for my part will not forgive the spreading of the teachings as expressed in the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. And I despise people who follow this wrong conception and perception of humanity and the world around it. That also includes the followers of the religions that are derived from Judaism like Christianity and Islam. Too much time and development potential has been lost for mankind due to the cult of Yah.
Personally I also have not yet reached a final judgement on the holocaust. Somehow I see it as the gruesome implementation of an ideological boomerang that has come back to the Jews after 3000 years of teaching the world how the value of a human being is determined by descent/lineage.


Agreed. I don't hate "Jews", but I do utterly despise the dead Jewish (and other faith) people who led to Christianity (Darned Mithras and all the other faiths too for feeding the power house of hatred).

I for my part will not forgive the spreading of the teachings as expressed in the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketuvim. And I despise people who follow this wrong conception and perception of humanity and the world around it.

What are these terrible things found in the books you mention? I'm not a huge scholar of Judaism, and so I have not read more than parts of the Torah.

I think it did take the Holocaust to end widespread, socially acceptable anti-Semitism. After such horrors, it became both a humanity/ pity thing and a political-correctness thing, pathetic as that is.
First, almost no one could look at the terrible facts of the camps and not feel at least some compassion for those who had been through that. Yes, Jews had been persecuted before, but never were the numbers laid out so starkly. Eisenhower ordered reporters and photographers into the camps to show the world what had happened and make sure that no one would ever be able to say that it did not happen, and their pictures shocked people around the world.
Before that point, people could shrug off stories of violence and discrimination against Jews by saying things like 'it's far away,' 'they deserve it,' and 'it's no one we know.' In the wake of WWII, when Jewish survivors spread across the globe, it became harder to do. It's difficult to believe that a death toll that high is deserved by anyone, no matter their race or religion, and the sad old woman down the street who has no family left and numbers on her arm isn't far away and is someone we might know.

After WWII, the Allied countries condemned all of the third reich's actions. Hitler and all his command staff and people were 'Enemy' and the things they had done anathema. Having the most violent anti-semites, such as Julius Streicher, tried as war criminals and hung tends to turn people away from following their path, and it did so with a vengeance. To be anti-semitica after the war was to be identified with the Nazis, and that was just Not Done. Not when so many Allied soldiers had been killed by the Nazis right along with the Jews.

I am not an anti-semite, never have been, never will be. Some of my best friends are jewish. Nor am I, in any way, promoting or supporting what was done to jewish people in the Holocaust. The death, torture and horror perpretraited by the nazis was evil, terrible and a blight on our history and humanity that we may never be able to erase, to make up for. So, that out of the way, I have a question.

Would Europe and North America, most of the world, in fact, still be anti-semitic if the holocaust had not happened?

As most people know, most nations in the world, more specifically in Europe and North America, were rabidly anti-semitic before the second world war. Jewish people were seen to be no better than gypsys, with no real country of their own, and they killed Christ. (yet again, not my opinion, don't pin that on me).

The holocaust devestated the jewish people, killing a large percentage of the populaton(I don't know the exact figure), millions of lives. The devestation and the horror touched the entire world, leading to the forced creation of Isreal.

My question is, if this had not happened, if we had not been touched by this, would we still see jewish people in the same way?

EDIT: By this, I mean would anti-semitism be as rampant, accepted and, even, expected as it was then. There are still, obviously, anti-semites, but not mearly as many of them as there were, and they are less ready to express their views. Would anti-semitism have diminished as much as it has without the holocaust.


Okay - before I start - let me just point out that I am a quarter Romani, and was actually quite insulted at the "Jewish people were seen to be no better than gypsys" comment.

Perhaps you were not aware that using a group of people as an insulting comparison, COULD be seen as insulting to THAT group?

Curious that you should choose to use such language, in a dsebate topic about racial intolerance.

I am also Jewish, albeit a much lower fraction... since my grandfather was Jewish - but probably not 'pure' Jewish stock.

People seem to forget that the German policies of the Second World War, were NOT ONLY aimed at the Jews... perhaps that is just the group that has made the LOUDEST noise.

Not to say that persecution of ANY people is right... obviously, I don't accept that - but the Second World War, even from the Nazi perspective, was not JUST the persecution of Jews.

One other point - as has been pointed out by other posters... there might be argued to be a certain poetic justice to the persecution of a people who have spent thousands of years telling EVERYONE else, that they are so much better than them.

Not that that helps on an individual scale, obviously. It is always a tragedy for an individual, when they end up paying for the sins of their forebears.

Regarding the persecution of Jews before WWII, there have been violences against the Jews throughout Europe, as long as there have been Jews in Europe... but the same is basically true of all other non-native peoples... ESPECIALLY those who have refused to 'mix blood' with their adopted cultures.

Regarding the formation of Israel, I'm not sure where you got the concept "The devestation and the horror touched the entire world, leading to the forced creation of Isreal". I don't see that as a historically supportable claim.

One Final point... our modern interpretation of the phrase 'anti-Semitism', has somehow been corrupted to mean JUST the persecution of Jews. The Jews are NOT the only Semitic people. This is worth bearing in mind, when talking about Anti-Semitic Genocide (like WWII), because the Bible's "Book of Joshua" clearly recalls the Jews as the INSTIGATORS of an Anti-Semitic Genocide, against the Semites of Canaan.

People should consider how they react to the Calvinists who declare themselves to be Elite. Think of Vote Early and Kahta. (sp?)
Judaism has been effectively doing the same thing for some three thousand years. The blessed, according to them are the Jews. To be a Jew you have to be born a Jew, no other option exists. So they move into other countries, amongst other religions and promote this superior attitude. It is not surprising that thet have been the most popular scapegoat group in Western History.

Having said that, believing yourself to be better than others is no justification for the others to discriminate against you as a group. Individual dislike up to maybe hatred can be provoked but, to discriminate against all Jews because of some is unjustified.