NationStates Jolt Archive

It appears to me that every single thread seems to devolve into childish insult slinging between liberals and conservatives. Therefore, I have created a thread to soothe the tensions. Alrighty, if you are a conservative, say at least one thing you like about liberals, and vice versa.

Liberals: I admire your idealism highly, and feel that it could do some real good in the world if put into the right areas.

they started it

...Not going to happen. I tried being nice and respective and thus far all I've seen is insults from liberals. That does not foster the way in me to be nice. :mad:

Awww, some of us liberals like you, Greg.

You liberals really know how to fight for a cause.

If you ever have to have a contract negotiated, send a liberal. Those people are relentless and they take no prisoners.

Awww, some of us liberals like you, Greg.



Awww..okay:

I love the way liberals stick to their convictions.

Goober has shown me the way by saying something nice. :fluffle:

Ok now its time for the liberals to say something nice about us!

Strip em and duct tape them together. It worked on me. One night at a party, I passed out drunk. When I woke up, I was duct taped naked to my bitter rival. I won't go into further details, but we've been good friends ever since. :eek: :) ;)

Strip em and duct tape them together. It worked on me. One night at a party, I passed out drunk. When I woke up, I was duct taped naked to my bitter rival. I won't go into further details, but we've been good friends ever since. :eek: :) ;)

oookkkkk.....yeaaa.

I'm guessing you're probably around my age. Maybe a little older. I'd say it's the new generation, teens to 20 year-olds. If you look carefully, you'll notice they tend to be more Liberal than anything else. The Republican party/Conservatives aren't really represented in this generation. I'd say it has to do with the history we live through. Not your teacher.

And, no, I will not say anything good about Conservatives.

It's more because you have yet to pay any significant amount of taxes.

Well... conservatives are generally free of hippies, which is a good thing.

Damn hippies.

Seriously though, I find that often my view on things is a little idealistic, it sometimes requires a conservative to "ground" my idealistic notions. Ultimately I think it is a bit of a ying-yang thing - liberals and conservatives need each other to balance each other out and find the workable middleground.

I'm guessing you're probably around my age. Maybe a little older. I'd say it's the new generation, teens to 20 year-olds. If you look carefully, you'll notice they tend to be more Liberal than anything else. The Republican party/Conservatives aren't really represented in this generation. I'd say it has to do with the history we live through. Not your teacher.

And, no, I will not say anything good about Conservatives.

I'm 19. And they are represented in our generation, you just arent looking hard enough it seems.

One point dispproven and another one reaffirmed.

I think when it comes to taxes and government control. Convservative are needed. When it comes to social and welfare, liberals are needed.

I wub you all.

I wub you all.

Its a Teletubbie kill it!

Originally posted by Lacadaemon
It's more because you have yet to pay any significant amount of taxes.

Actually, I grew up in a single-parent household where the income was below the poverty line. So, if I do grow up to make enough money to pay taxes, I won't be btiching quite as much as you because i know the money actually helps people and i have seen the kind of people who need this help. Yes, the welfare system is quite corrupt, but it should not be taken away altogether.



Originally posted by Jersey and New York
I'm 19. And they are represented in our generation, you just arent looking hard enough it seems.

One point dispproven and another one reaffirmed.

Notice I did not say there weren't any Republicans in this generation. I had implied there is not much representation as there was in the prior generation. I am looking hard enough. Look through some profiles.

1) I'm neither liberal nor conservative. I'm an ex-republican, converted out of it by Dubya's horrible rhetoric. I'm now party-less, and intend to remain thus.

2) I've noticed that either side, but particularly conservatives, assume everyone is either L or C, always based on whether they agree or disagree. Sorry folks, but not everyone is L or C, and not everyone who is L or C agrees with everyone else of the same party or disagrees with everyone else of the other party.

3) It has been my observation that modern that both groups are fairly low on the sanity levels. Conservatives tend to argue lacking any form of logic, using rhetoric and shouting instead and liberals tend to use logic, but tend to be way too emotionally-swayed and unrealistic. You can, however, at least get a word in edgewise with the average media-present liberal, while media-present conservatives tend to just yell and use fallicious rhetorical methods. Liberals, in turn, tend to act a bit sheepish. There are, of course, the radicals of either group, none of which are easy to speak with.

4) Sadly, kids these days are going very right. It's a counter-culture movement against all the rebellion of the last thirty years. Nobody ever seems to say "Hey, I know, let's ignore peer pressure, fads, and counter-fads, and just base things off of rational argument and unbiased study!"

5) Meh.

Actually, I grew up in a single-parent household where the income was below the poverty line. So, if I do grow up to make enough money to pay taxes, I won't be btiching quite as much as you because i know the money actually helps people and i have seen the kind of people who need this help. Yes, the welfare system is quite corrupt, but it should not be taken away altogether.





Notice I did not say there weren't any Republicans in this generation. I had implied there is not much representation as there was in the prior generation. I am looking hard enough. Look through some profiles.


You mean profiles on NS? You kidding me? No thanks. There world is far bigger than NS. Now, this thread if a reconciliation thread, if you've nothing nice to say beat it.

I'm guessing you're probably around my age. Maybe a little older. I'd say it's the new generation, teens to 20 year-olds. If you look carefully, you'll notice they tend to be more Liberal than anything else. The Republican party/Conservatives aren't really represented in this generation. I'd say it has to do with the history we live through. Not your teacher.

The Republican party/conservatives are well repersented in this current generation thanks...

And, no, I will not say anything good about Conservatives.

Yep, damn those evil people who pushed through civil rights!

Actually, I grew up in a single-parent household where the income was below the poverty line. So, if I do grow up to make enough money to pay taxes, I won't be btiching quite as much as you because i know the money actually helps people and i have seen the kind of people who need this help. Yes, the welfare system is quite corrupt, but it should not be taken away altogether.

No really? And guess who wants to reform it and make it better? The Republican party... who wants to through more money at it? The Democrats...

Notice I did not say there weren't any Republicans in this generation. I had implied there is not much representation as there was in the prior generation. I am looking hard enough. Look through some profiles.

Profiles on nationstates mean something? The previous generations were the age of hippies, drugs and free love remember?

I guess the best thing you can say about both conservatives and liberals, is that in general, unless they become politicians, their political beliefs are based on what they believe to be the best way to improve the lives of the most number of people, and produce success. Very few people base their political beliefs on wanting to cause harm or suffering.

Most of the right-leaning conservative people I know, have a genuine conviction that theirs is the best way to run a country and make everyone better off. While I disagree with their politics, it does not make them bad people, and infact they are genrally very decent people!

For example one guy I know is very much a right-leaning conservative, but he also does more charity work than anyone else I know.

Generally I think both Liberals and Conservatives are likeable, as long as they accept that their different opinions are political and not personal. Unfortunately it would seem that this thread has already decended into bitter rivalry!

Actually, I grew up in a single-parent household where the income was below the poverty line. So, if I do grow up to make enough money to pay taxes, I won't be btiching quite as much as you because i know the money actually helps people and i have seen the kind of people who need this help. Yes, the welfare system is quite corrupt, but it should not be taken away altogether.


See that's where you lack empathy. I never said the welfare system should be abolished (though it should be reformed).

The thing is, as you get older you start to pay significant amounts of tax on your income. You also have to pay lots of other little taxes (title transfer etc), just to pay for the services you use yourself. At the end of the year when you go over your taxes you realize that the federal government just confiscated your second lexus from you in tax. Then you start to get pissed off at how much they waste. Then Chuck Schumer comes on TV blabing about a new program, which is at best of small utilty, the federal government is going to fund.

It's at that point you start to weigh your shiny - but non-exsistent lexus - with the pressing need for yet another fruitless pre-school program administered by Washington. Voting Republican seems quite a good idea at that point.

(Of course the Repubs are just as bad these days, but that's a seperate issue, and frankly I don't care about deficit spending because I am retired and own income producing property).

It appears to me that every single thread seems to devolve into childish insult slinging between liberals and conservatives. Therefore, I have created a thread to soothe the tensions. Alrighty, if you are a conservative, say at least one thing you like about liberals, and vice versa.

Liberals: I admire your idealism highly, and feel that it could do some real good in the world if put into the right areas.

Are you the conservative who told me that they hoped I went to prison and got raped by a fat man named bubba, because I mentioned that I smoke pot occasinally? If so this is for you: :fluffle: for being nice!!!

Wheeeeeee!!!!

The debate has started yet again...

It'd be nice if someone could remember what this thread was about and just bite the bullet instead of feeling the need to argue it out all over again.

Doesn't matter who started, show yourself to be the better person by stopping.

Actually, I grew up in a single-parent household where the income was below the poverty line. So, if I do grow up to make enough money to pay taxes, I won't be btiching quite as much as you because i know the money actually helps people and i have seen the kind of people who need this help. Yes, the welfare system is quite corrupt, but it should not be taken away altogether.


Just though I'd note. I myself came from an upper middle class family (whom came from lower class families who've all since become strongly middle class if not upper middle class families). We were 'officially' republican for quite awhile, but my dad (my mom's a Canuck, so can't vote) was at least open to the good and bad of the presidents. We made some GOOD profit off of the Clinton era, for instance, and my dad eventually decided he liked Clinton better than Bush Sr. But he DID vote for Dubya the first time around. Even after my own "By Bast's perky rack, the president and the modern republican party elite are a bunch of jackasses!", my dad remained a supporter of Dubya, up until Powell announced that the "Fact" that WMDs were in Iraq wasn't so much a fact, at which point, his normal skepticism led him to be like me; party-free.

Neither of us will ever become democrats. We likes our guns, as it were, and we both have issues with many liberal issues. But we do have a very direct view of high end (He associates with rich people fairly often, since he builds millions of dollars with of hospitals, and used to build houses in Pebble Beach. And, of course, we live in large houses on nice land ourselves), and the low end (Considering I have one aunt on wellfare, and relatives who're druggy bums on the street, and my dad grew up in a room with several other kids, mostly cousins because not every family could afford them). Extreme views just don't work, in our experience.

The answers are in the middle ground. All the hatred is keeping people from realizing it.

I don't choose friendships based on political beliefs :)

Don't make me break out the duct tape!

Unless you're into that sort of thing. ;)

[QUOTE=Lacadaemon II]At the end of the year when you go over your taxes you realize that the federal government just confiscated your second lexus from you in tax.QUOTE]

Food vs. Lexus. Food vs. Lexus. Hmnn.

Mind you, I agree on wellfare reform being needed (Who DOESN'T agree with that). But I'm willing to have one less lexus for it, if its done right.

Honestly, people against wellfare should first notice how much some states give to others. That's some SERIOUS wellfare, that has a harder time benefitting the state that actually makes the money.

Food vs. Lexus. Food vs. Lexus. Hmnn.

Mind you, I agree on wellfare reform being needed (Who DOESN'T agree with that). But I'm willing to have one less lexus for it, if its done right.

Honestly, people against wellfare should first notice how much some states give to others. That's some SERIOUS wellfare, that has a harder time benefitting the state that actually makes the money.

So don't buy a Lexus, and then donate the money you would have spent on it to charity. Makes sense to me. What, doesn't make sense is expecting everyone to adhere to your moral code.

Originally posted by Lacadaemon
It's at that point you start to weigh your shiny - but non-exsistent lexus - with the pressing need for yet another fruitless pre-school program administered by Washington. Voting Republican seems quite a good idea at that point.

Well, I'm sorry you're heartless and that a Lexus is more important to you than helping others. If it weren't for social welfare programs, I would not be alive. My mother would not have been able to feed me, even though she works.


Originally posted by Salvondia
No really? And guess who wants to reform it and make it better? The Republican party... who wants to through more money at it? The Democrats...

Haha. The funny thing is Republicans voted in a moron like George Bush. A lot of spending on the military isn't necessary. It's just tied into the fact he's creating war so he can make a profit in his oil company.


Originally posted by Salvondia
Profiles on nationstates mean something? The previous generations were the age of hippies, drugs and free love remember?

The profiles list the person's political affiliation. It will help you to realize that this generation (not your generation) of teens-20 year olds are becoming more and more Liberal. You may want to look at them. I highly doubt you have kids. You sound like a White heterosexual male. As for the hippies, there seems to be a lot of Republicans leading the government these days. Why I don't know where a 60 year-old Republican could of come from. Weren't they hippies smoking pot then? I don't know. Maybe Republicans appeared out of thin air. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Lacadaemon II]At the end of the year when you go over your taxes you realize that the federal government just confiscated your second lexus from you in tax.QUOTE]

Food vs. Lexus. Food vs. Lexus. Hmnn.

Mind you, I agree on wellfare reform being needed (Who DOESN'T agree with that). But I'm willing to have one less lexus for it, if its done right.

Honestly, people against wellfare should first notice how much some states give to others. That's some SERIOUS wellfare, that has a harder time benefitting the state that actually makes the money.

But as I said in my post, the choice isn't food v. lexus. It's Chuck Schumer and his stupid program v. lexus. I see no reason why I should fork over tens of thousands of dollars in taxes just because Chuck wants something to go on eyewitness news with, or run on in his next shoo in campaign.

The other thing is, I know plenty of people who could make more money, and just don't bother because of taxes. You reach a point in your life where you realize you are not going to be worth $100 million ever and, if you were sensible with your money when you were younger, you just don't need to do that much to maintain your standard of living. So why work just to give half of it to the government?

Not to mention, I live in a state where a great percentage of public assistance comes from the state government anyway.

Don't make me break out the duct tape!

Unless you're into that sort of thing. ;)

[bad US accent] Book 'em Danno [/bad US accent]

Time to bring out the duct tape, I'm happy to lend any assistance required.

Well, I'm sorry you're heartless and that a Lexus is more important to you than helping others. If it weren't for social welfare programs, I would not be alive. My mother would not have been able to feed me, even though she works.

That's a complete mischaracterization of what I said and a ridiculous counter-factual claim to boot. (Unless of course a pre-school program actually saved your life).

You say I am heartless, yet you seem to think that it's alright that people should just give up the majority of the fruits of their work for a year, because someone else feels deprived, or because a politician wants to build a legacy. Fact: The federal government wastes vast amounts of money. Fact: That money is generated by people who often spend 50-60 hrs a week doing something they would rather not be doing to earn it. If at the end of the year they feel like giving themselves a lexus, why not. They earned it.

It's not to much to ask for fiscal responsiblity, and it is certainly not heartless.

I would also point out to those who are in favor of income redistribution, there is always someone poorer than you, and unless you are actively sending in voluntary contributions to the IRS, you are being a bit of a hypocrit.

The doorman at the hotel I used to work at had this to say about liberals and conservatives:

The conservative will come up to you and start talking to you like he's your best friend. He'll ask you to do something in the informal way you'd speak to your buddy When you tell him his request is impossible, he'll flip out and start threatening you with status, saying he can buy and sell you, threatening to tell the manager, until he finally goes away, satisfied with his own show of manhood.

The liberal, on the other hand, is pissed off already when he comes up to you. He's rude and demanding and barely listens when you say you can't help him. He seems confused until he finally gets it through his head that what he's asking is impossible. He then apologizes profusely and meekly walks away.

This is the doorman who went to Lollapalooza outside of Chicago one year and woke up couple days later in OHIO.

Newsflash: Taxes aren't designed to just benefit you, but the nation as a whole. Having a larger educated, healthy workforce is a benefit for the nation as a whole. If done PROPERLY, it has a huge benefit. Do you know why America is so powerful right now, but has been slipping in influence? Because during the recent draft-using wars, people escaped getting shot by going to -college-. The generation that followed was -very- educated, and made the US -very- powerful in the world. We also managed to have good enough PR (eduction breeds empathy) that, despite getting involved in stupid wars, the planet mostly forgave us, until the recent wars, now that the US's education levels are slipping again. Honestly, I'd say that, historically, another draft would be good for the US... but only if college is still a way to 'escape' it. Not saying I like the idea, but it has been historically beneficial, just like nuclear prolifieration, while meaning nasty stuff, also has stopped many wars.

Think LONG term.

Now, I, and any sane person on the planet will agree that the current system sucks. But almost every system on the planet sucks. Governments are full of people that suck. Its the nature of things. We can try for better, though, instead of throwing our hands up and screwing up the nation's future so Lexuses can get off the lot in greater numbers.

Your doorman rocks.

Originally posted by Queria

The doorman at the hotel I used to work at had this to say about liberals and conservatives:

The conservative will come up to you and start talking to you like he's your best friend. He'll ask you to do something in the informal way you'd speak to your buddy When you tell him his request is impossible, he'll flip out and start threatening you with status, saying he can buy and sell you, threatening to tell the manager, until he finally goes away, satisfied with his own show of manhood.

The liberal, on the other hand, is pissed off already when he comes up to you. He's rude and demanding and barely listens when you say you can't help him. He seems confused until he finally gets it through his head that what he's asking is impossible. He then apologizes profusely and meekly walks away.


*raucous applause*

Newsflash: Taxes aren't designed to just benefit you, but the nation as a whole. Having a larger educated, healthy workforce is a benefit for the nation as a whole. If done PROPERLY, it has a huge benefit. Do you know why America is so powerful right now, but has been slipping in influence? Because during the recent draft-using wars, people escaped getting shot by going to -college-. The generation that followed was -very- educated, and made the US -very- powerful in the world. We also managed to have good enough PR (eduction breeds empathy) that, despite getting involved in stupid wars, the planet mostly forgave us, until the recent wars, now that the US's education levels are slipping again. Honestly, I'd say that, historically, another draft would be good for the US... but only if college is still a way to 'escape' it. Not saying I like the idea, but it has been historically beneficial, just like nuclear prolifieration, while meaning nasty stuff, also has stopped many wars.

Think LONG term.

Now, I, and any sane person on the planet will agree that the current system sucks. But almost every system on the planet sucks. Governments are full of people that suck. Its the nature of things. We can try for better, though, instead of throwing our hands up and screwing up the nation's future so Lexuses can get off the lot in greater numbers.

So we need more college grads, so we can better PR?

Fact is, this whole college thing is a bit of snake oil. Most people go to college - taking out massive loans to do so - only to wind up in the wage slavery of genteel middle class poverty.

The old model of, GI bill, college, work for large corporation, get decent standard of living, retire, is no longer true. The world just doesn't work that way anymore, and the federal government should stop wasting money on it.

So I am thinking long term.

I once was a liberal!
Man, I mean everything goes and to heck with anyone standing there shaking their head and warning me of my impending trouble.

Then, there it was !
I got older, realized how much trouble I was in, how much trouble I had caused, lost most of my hair and became a conservative.

I have a great deal of love and tolerance for all because I've lived in both places.

I think the difference was, when I was a liberal I used to fight with the conservatives just because I wasn't about to have anyone tell me what I could or couldn't do. (I mean, who do they think they are, right?)

As a conservative the difference is, I see how much damage I caused myself and others (and it really bites!).

There are days I think of those wild parties and all the fun in the sun (well under the stars too). But, mostly I found someone who really loves me for who I am and not who I was pretending to try to be.

I guess I finally grew up.

Blessings and Peace to all! :fluffle:

Well, I'm sorry you're heartless and that a Lexus is more important to you than helping others. If it weren't for social welfare programs, I would not be alive. My mother would not have been able to feed me, even though she works.

Here is a simple example for you. In this wonderful little town there is a beautification project. This beautification project costs ~2 million. That money will come from the federal government, but before it gets to the town it has to go to the state. At the state level a committee gets together and does studies and decides whether or not the county that the little town is in should get any money or not, and if so how much. The State decided the County should get some money. The county than takes the money and forms a committee and decides how much each city should get, and if so, how much. The County decides the little town should get the 2 million it needs.

By the time the little town gets the 2 million it needs, it has cost 4 million to decide to give that town the 2 million. It would be nice if the money we spent in taxes actually got to people and helped them. But for the most part it doesn't.

Haha. The funny thing is Republicans voted in a moron like George Bush. A lot of spending on the military isn't necessary. It's just tied into the fact he's creating war so he can make a profit in his oil company.

Riighhttt. Which is why we've redirected so much money and time and re-built the Iraqi oil industry and not their schools and hospitals. *cough* oh wait, we've rebuilt the schools, and hospitals, but not the oil pipeline.

The profiles list the person's political affiliation. It will help you to realize that this generation (not your generation) of teens-20 year olds are becoming more and more Liberal. You may want to look at them. I highly doubt you have kids. You sound like a White heterosexual male. As for the hippies, there seems to be a lot of Republicans leading the government these days. Why I don't know where a 60 year-old Republican could of come from. Weren't they hippies smoking pot then? I don't know. Maybe Republicans appeared out of thin air. :rolleyes:

I am part of "this" generation. Cheers. There are a lot of Republicans leading the government? No really? But wait, there are a whole lot Democrats too. Just as there is today in this generation. Nationstates is not exactly a good sample of the youth of America you know.

While I think of it, conservatives are often faster to "get over" things... us liberals it seems do have a habit of drawing out conflicts over issues.

While I think of it, conservatives are often faster to "get over" things... us liberals it seems do have a habit of drawing out conflicts over issues.


Hey,
That was very well put my Emperor!

Hey,
That was very well put my Emperor!

Thanks :)

I think it is fairly easy to see that both sides have positives and both have negatives. Both are obviously trying to do what they think is best for everyone...

It's just a shame more people can't see that about the other.

Of course, there are people in the conservative camp who aren't really interested in helping others... just as there are probably people in the liberal camp hoping that they'll find themselves in a situation where they won't ever have to help themselves...

So we need more college grads, so we can better PR?

Fact is, this whole college thing is a bit of snake oil. Most people go to college - taking out massive loans to do so - only to wind up in the wage slavery of genteel middle class poverty.

The old model of, GI bill, college, work for large corporation, get decent standard of living, retire, is no longer true. The world just doesn't work that way anymore, and the federal government should stop wasting money on it.

So I am thinking long term.

No, I'm saying PR is a nice benefit of an educated populace. Ignorant people don't make for a happy planet. Did you know that not having 90% of the planet want you to die is a GOOD thing?

Last I checked, going to college results in a substantial average increase of 'slave wages'. Most people will end up being some company's bitch. But I'd rather be the bitch with the nice steak instead of the bitch with the moldy kibble.

GI Bill is crap, last I heard. What was it, 30% tax? College is still decent if you don't take too many useless courses. Lucky for me, as a writer, almost anything I take will have SOME use to me, since I can write about it. Though I will say this, sucks to be a history or philosophy major.

Especially right now, when so many crap jobs go overseas, and robotics take over so many of the other jobs, education is important. Uneducated people can't do much more than labor and retail and small company factory work.

To Salv: Low level pork. Pork is unhealthy. Beaurocrats are reviled openly for a reason.

I'm guessing you're probably around my age. Maybe a little older. I'd say it's the new generation, teens to 20 year-olds. If you look carefully, you'll notice they tend to be more Liberal than anything else. The Republican party/Conservatives aren't really represented in this generation. I'd say it has to do with the history we live through. Not your teacher.

And, no, I will not say anything good about Conservatives.

I'm 19. And they are represented in our generation, you just arent looking hard enough it seems.

One point dispproven and another one reaffirmed.
^Reaffirming his point. I'm 20 and I'm a conservative Republican. I'm also originally from Levittown, Pennsylvania. That's a suburb of Philly that the city wanted to absorb.

Most people I knew in high school were either moderates or conservatives. So please don't attempt to misrepresent our generation. :)

No, I'm saying PR is a nice benefit of an educated populace. Ignorant people don't make for a happy planet. Did you know that not having 90% of the planet want you to die is a GOOD thing?

Last I checked, going to college results in a substantial average increase of 'slave wages'. Most people will end up being some company's bitch. But I'd rather be the bitch with the nice steak instead of the bitch with the moldy kibble.

GI Bill is crap, last I heard. What was it, 30% tax? College is still decent if you don't take too many useless courses. Lucky for me, as a writer, almost anything I take will have SOME use to me, since I can write about it. Though I will say this, sucks to be a history or philosophy major.

Especially right now, when so many crap jobs go overseas, and robotics take over so many of the other jobs, education is important. Uneducated people can't do much more than labor and retail and small company factory work.

Out of curiosity, do you consider contractors, electricians, plumbers, carpenters and tile workers "uneducated"? People in these trades often earn as much, or more, as your typical college graduate.

...Not going to happen. I tried being nice and respective and thus far all I've seen is insults from liberals. That does not foster the way in me to be nice. :mad:

Some liberals on this forum are rational.

Others like to call any source you link to "lies" if it doesn't agree with what they believe.

Still others encourage the idea that it is good to falsify documents if it means that their vision of Truth will be upheld.

It appears to me that every single thread seems to devolve into childish insult slinging between liberals and conservatives. Therefore, I have created a thread to soothe the tensions. Alrighty, if you are a conservative, say at least one thing you like about liberals, and vice versa.

Liberals: I admire your idealism highly, and feel that it could do some real good in the world if put into the right areas.

But neocons are filthy :mp5: :p

Conservatives genarally try to maitain high values.

Out of curiosity, do you consider contractors, electricians, plumbers, carpenters and tile workers "uneducated"? People in these trades often earn as much, or more, as your typical college graduate.

Funny you should ask that. My dad's in construction. In fact, he's one of the best in the country, considering how many 'charity jobs' he's turned profitable. Heck, if the man wasn't "Type-A" to the Nth degree, with a socially-crippling background (He has issues with advancement... bah) I'd probably have a company to inherit from him (and quickly sell off, heh). Still, despite that, he makes damn good money. In fact, my college tuition is being paid for with 'truck money', and some vacation money. While we're building very very large house (we've been staying in an apartment we built, over a three car garage, which is rather nice in itself, in the mean time).

But guess what. Not only did he go to college for two years (where he focused on economics and electronics), but, like most professionals in construction, he took on apprenticeship. Of course, he'd been apprenticing under his father since he was a kid, and ol' grandpa is amazing too, still building things to this day, and all the people grandpa introduced him to over the years, who were some of the best builders in the nation themselves. Did I mention my dad did most of his early career building mansions for people in Pebble Beach? I don't know if I'll ever be as educated as he is, considering how intense it was. He was -running- jobs in high school.

BUT.

The people he grew up with went to college longer, and are MORE successful than he is. They're no more able than he is, the man really is amazing when he's not being a jerk, but they went for long-term education benefits. Electronics and business, for instance. My uncle is a partner with the local land developer. They've got so much business he complains between his near-monthly vacations, most of which are to Mexico and Hawaii and such. The man is TIRED of vacationing (My dear step-aunt keeps dragging him around, heh).

Education has done amazing things in my experience.

It always saddens me to see old men still pulling labor jobs (its good money, but not amazing). Labor should be like retail and other suck jobs. You do it when you're young, to help pay for education and so forth, and when there's a tight spot you need to get through. Also a great way to get in shape.

I also have family that's gotten in to painting and tiling and so forth. Most of them aren't educated, and they really suck at what they do as a result. Growing up with my carpentry-oriented family, you have no idea how ill I get when I see some of the results of uneducated and poorly educated people being given building contracts. Like the school library that has a suck foundation that would crumble if they added all the books it was designed to hold. Now they have to tear it down. But the company building stuff on campus also adds stupid aesthetic touches with drastically reduce the integrity of the structures, and their work is horrible. I betcha they don't have nearly the education my dad did at their various ages.

Conservatives genarally try to maitain high values.

Traditional is what you mean. Liberals have their values too, and they're strongly oriented towards them. They're just different.

-snip-

You are misplacing pride/hard work and drive with education. There are plenty of college graduates who do shit, do a bad job and overall just suck.

Going to college makes you more likely to succeed. But then the two most successful people I personally know aren't college graduates. One of them is a guy who owns a cement pouring company and pulls in a personal salary well in excess of a million dollars.

:shrug:

Nobody said it was a guarantee. But society works in ratios. Especially when so many companies hire you based on your having a college degree.

Do you know what my various dream jobs keep demanding?

"Required: Bachelor Degree in English, History, or Related Fields"

If I put it, "I really like English, History, and Related Fields, and Read about them all the time!", they'll only look to me if they're desperate, or if I like saved the world from a giant meteor.

In fact, I have a better chance getting my dream job with SOME sort of Degree. One of the guys doing Dungeons and Dragons (I had, at one point, dreamt of joining the company, lately I'm iffy on it) has a degree as a GENETICIST. Considering how many journals they have to write in -college-, I'm not even vaguely surprised.

Education is PR for the individual as well.

It's more because you have yet to pay any significant amount of taxes.
How would being conservative lower your taxes? Only libertarianism can offer that. Despite what your leaders tell you, the state can't have the world's biggest military without tax money.