NationStates Jolt Archive

Whose the "rightful" owner of the Rock [of Gibraltar]?

The baboons.

The baboons.

I resent your baboonish statement.

What nation do Gibraltarans want to belong to? I'd say that would be the correct answer.

Gibraltar ROCKS!!!

whoever the people who live there want to rule them

which right now is the UK

It's the British! Anyone who does not know that is a pure fool!

Think Self-determination. Gibraltans want to be British.

as far as I'm aware, the overwhelming majority of gibraltans consider themselves British, and nothing else. So I'd say it belongs to Britain.

What nation do Gibraltarans want to belong to? I'd say that would be the correct answer.

Definitely America then. Everyone wants to be American.

Definitely America then. Everyone wants to be American.
True Dat!

What nation do Gibraltarans want to belong to? I'd say that would be the correct answer.
A huge majority want to remain British.

Although snobby humans refuse to give baboons the right to vote.

Definitely America then. Everyone wants to be American.

What have you been smoking?

A huge majority want to remain British.

Although snobby humans refuse to give baboons the right to vote.

Then they ought to remain British, no?

Unless Spain invades.

The U.K. is the owner but Spain is the rightfull owner if you ask me.

What have you been smoking?
The green grass of American Freedom I'd wager.

Unless Spain invades.


There is now way of Spain invading.

Then they ought to remain British, no?
Up till the point where Britain can sell them down the river for diplomatic kudos, or maybe Andorra. ;)

I really doubt that Spain would want to invade as they would not beable to deal with the drug trafficing that comes through Gibraltar and onto Ireland.

The U.K. is the owner but Spain is the rightfull owner if you ask me.
i agree, lets force the vast majority to live in a country they dont want to be in

smashing idea

I really doubt that Spain would want to invade as they would not beable to deal with the drug trafficing that comes through Gibraltar and onto Ireland.

Retribution for 1588.

i agree, lets force the vast majority to live in a country they dont want to be in

smashing idea
Close to home?

Not trying to be offensive, just asking.

retribution is all well and god, but They would not have the capabilities that the British S.A.S do to deal with the drug trafficing.

It comes from places like Jamaca, down to America, then carefully through Spain to the main place where it all meats up (as it does take different routes) in Gibraltar. From there it goes to PIRA (Provisional Irish Republican Army)

It has to be self-determination, so it has to be the UK.

i agree, lets force the vast majority to live in a country they dont want to be in

smashing idea

I am talking about the land not the people. Gibraltar was a part of Spain but now is under the controll of the U.K. What nation the people want to be citizens of is another matter. I know about the refferandum(i have know idea how you spell it). The ground is Spanish.

Close to home?

Not trying to be offensive, just asking.
could say that...just dont agree with forcing the majority to be a part of a country because the minority wants it.

but if the majority wants it then fine

I am talking about the land not the people. Gibraltar was a part of Spain but now is under the controll of the U.K. What nation the people want to be citizens of is another matter. I no about the refferandum(i have no idea how you spell it). The ground is Spanish.
What makes the ground Spanish?

I am talking about the land not the people. Gibraltar was a part of Spain but now is under the controll of the U.K. What nation the people want to be citizens of is another matter. I no about the refferandum(i have no idea how you spell it). The ground is Spanish.
did you ask the land?

I am talking about the land not the people. Gibraltar was a part of Spain but now is under the controll of the U.K. What nation the people want to be citizens of is another matter. I no about the refferandum(i have no idea how you spell it). The ground is Spanish.

Just like Colonialism, (when we had controlled a quarter of the world) (by we i mean british)

What makes the ground Spanish?

History.

What makes the ground Spanish?

Gibraltar is not exactly Spanish land as it is an island. so really it was free for the taking.

History.
so when are you going to start the movement to make Iceland a part of Denmark again?

History.

OK. For how long then does an area of land need to be under the control of a party (in this case a national 'foreign' government) for it to belong to said party and not too the original owners?

did you ask the land?
Do not act stupid. The Spanish owned that ground longer then the U.K.
Just like the Irish owned the North, I wont get into the Irish matter here.

Gibraltar is not exactly Spanish land as it is an island. so really it was free for the taking.
Isn't attached to the mainland though?

OK. For how long then does an area of land need to be under the control of a party (in this case a national 'foreign' government) for it to belong to said party and not too the original owners?

That doesn't make a difference, if a piece of land is won in a battle it could been under someones control for thousands of years, but it would just go straight to the victor. Regardless of history.

Gibraltar ROCKS!!!

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
That's almost as good as "geology rocks..." :D

Isn't attached to the mainland though?

No, that's why i said Island.

Does it really matter whos land it is? I hardly think it cares one way or the other. The people, however, want to be British, and that's the only thing that matters.

Do not act stupid. The Spanish owned that ground longer then the U.K.
Just like the Irish owned the North, I wont get into the Irish matter here.
I ask again, when is Iceland going back to Denmark?

there was never an independent Irish state to own the north...

The baboons.
Text maximized for great justice.

Do not act stupid. The Spanish owned that ground longer then the U.K.
Just like the Irish owned the North, I wont get into the Irish matter here.
The Irish never were never really unified though, therefore it would be just as wrong to say 'the Irish' owned the northen part of the country, in the same way as it would be wrong to say that the British owned Britian before the Unions of the Crowns and Parliaments.

Edit: Sorry, didn't address the point. Why should that make a difference using that logic the whole world should be reconfigured according to who owned what longest. Including Iceland with regards to Denmark.

Does it really matter whos land it is? I hardly think it cares one way or the other. The people, however, want to be British, and that's the only thing that matters.

Of course it matters whose it is you dolt! It is a military outpost for Britain.

Of course it matters whose it is you dolt! It is a military outpost for Britain.

bah, you know what I meant. I meant the spanish have no claim, because the people in gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Simple as that.

Do not act stupid. The Spanish owned that ground longer then the U.K.
Just like the Irish owned the North, I wont get into the Irish matter here.
Muslims owned that ground longer than infidels of Spain and the UK. There should be a jihad to restore Islamic rule in al-Andalus.
:mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

so when are you going to start the movement to make Iceland a part of Denmark again?

You have no idea what the history of my nation is do you? We never were danish or part of Denmark. We were another kingdom that had the same king. Get it? Plus my people have been here for more then 1000 years and a really small part of that was in union with the DANISH KING, not the danish people and not the danish land.

The baboons.Text maximized for great justice.
Thanks, after all they have probably lived there longest;)

It must be Dutch! As most of you probably don't know, the Dutch helped the British to conquer Gibraltar in the 1700's or something.

bah, you know what I meant. I meant the spanish have no claim, because the people in gibraltar don't want to be Spanish. Simple as that.

It doesn't matter what they want to be, they have no choice in the matter. They could want to be chinese, doesn't make it a chinese owned place.

It must be Dutch! As most of you probably don't know, the Dutch helped the British to conquer Gibraltar in the 1700's or something.

Britain got it in 1588

Since the Europeans can't agree on who it belongs to, I believe it should be the 51st State of the United States.

Or,

perhaps we move the UN to Gibraltar and make it a UN enclave outside of any nation.

You have no idea what the history of my nation is do you?
says the person who thinks NI should be part of Ireland because it used to be

We never were danish or part of Denmark. We were another kingdom that had the same king. Get it? Plus my people have been here for more then 1000 years and a really small part of that was in union with the DANISH KING, not the danish people and not the danish land.
so...just like Gibralter


Limited home rule was granted by the Danish government in 1874, and protectorate-like independence and sovereignty over domestic matters followed in 1918, foreign relations and defense remained in the authority of the Danes and the Danish king remained the sovereign of the nation until 1944, when the current republic was founded
as an aside, thats what i know about Danish rule of Iceland

You have no idea what the history of my nation is do you? We never were danish or part of Denmark. We were another kingdom that had the same king. Get it? Plus my people have been here for more then 1000 years and a really small part of that was in union with the DANISH KING, not the danish people and not the danish land.

Explain the mechanism to me how a people become tied to an area of land after an extended amount of time?

Including Iceland with regards to Denmark.


Icelanders have been in controll of Iceland loger then the foreign Danish whores. read the history. Thus Iceland would still be in controll of Iceland if that was the case.

Since the Europeans can't agree on who it belongs to, I believe it should be the 51st State of the United States.

Or,

perhaps we move the UN to Gibraltar and make it a UN enclave outside of any nation.

You don't seem to understand. GIBRALTAR CLEARLY BELONGS TO THE BRITISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Britain got it in 1588
Actually Britain conquered Gibraltar in 1704 with Dutch help.

It doesn't matter what they want to be, they have no choice in the matter. They could want to be chinese, doesn't make it a chinese owned place.

Spain could always go the way of Argentina and try to "take back" what's "their's". :D

perhaps we move the UN to Gibraltar and make it a UN enclave outside of any nation.

As long as the baboons get representation I don't care.

It doesn't matter what they want to be, they have no choice in the matter. They could want to be chinese, doesn't make it a chinese owned place.

They have more choice in the matter than you might assume. if everyone in Gibraltar suddenly decided that they belonged to China, started learning Chinese, put up the flag, and started doing what China said... there wouldn't be much that could be done about it. I doubt Britain would want to provoke a conflict with China over Gibraltar. However, this is an absurd circumstance.

The people of gibraltar can choose who they want to listen to. No country could get away with putting down any rebellion nowadays. They want to be British, and that's really the end of it. There's nothing much Spain can do about it.

Iceland has been in controll of Icelanders loger then the foreign Danish whores. read the history. Thus Iceland would still be in controll of Iceland if that was the case.
It says Iceland has only been in control of domestic affairs since 1918, and foreign relations since 1944

(Oooh should we drag The Falklands into this one?)

I'm all for independence... Get the British our of Gibralter, Australia etc... Then independence for Wales, Ulster, Scotland, Cornwall and self-determination for the Manx! Well, it would work in my head, anyway.

Spain could always go the way of Argentina and try to "take back" what's "their's". :D

They wouldn't beable to. The British army would not get beaten by Spain.

You don't seem to understand. GIBRALTAR CLEARLY BELONGS TO THE BRITISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is not a question who it does belong to, but who it should belong to.

We all know it clearly belongs to the British.

This is not a question who it does belong to, but who it should belong to.

We all know it clearly belongs to the British.

or Dutch :D

or Dutch :D
As much I would the Dutch to own it, they don't have a relitively huge military presence there.

or Dutch :D

Stop pimping the dutch

Who it should belong to? British as it is not a part of spanish mainland therefor not a part of spain, so they have to earn it like everyone else.

As much I would the Dutch to own it, they don't have a relitively huge military presence there.

Dutch Military pretty sucks. Just keep it British. Actually I don't mind...

Explain the mechanism to me how a people become tied to an area of land after an extended amount of time?

History not time. I tihnk it is bullsh** that it is part of the U.K. because of a war just like I think parts of Poland should be returned to Germany and the north of Ireland to the Irish.

History not time. I tihnk it is bullsh** that it is part of the U.K. because of a war just like I think parts of Poland should be returned to Germany and the north of Ireland to the Irish.
and Iceland to the Danes

Stop pimping the dutch

Who it should belong to? British as it is not a part of spanish mainland therefor not a part of spain, so they have to earn it like everyone else.

But how does it being attached mean anything?

Andorra and San Marino (amoung a host of similar places) retain autonomy with belonging to anyone else. Should Andorra belong to Spain?

It also brings a question of size (in terms of geography), at what size, in your opinion, is nesessary for autonomy?

History not time. I tihnk it is bullsh** that it is part of the U.K. because of a war just like I think parts of Poland should be returned to Germany and the north of Ireland to the Irish.

War is a way of life and is usually the deal breaker.

History not time. I tihnk it is bullsh** that it is part of the U.K. because of a war just like I think parts of Poland should be returned to Germany and the north of Ireland to the Irish.
History (in the way you used it) implies a sense of time.

Saying that it depends on who has controlled an area longest also implies a sense of time aswell.

On Poland, which parts of Poland? The part known as the Polish corridor, which originally belonged to Germany before Versailles?

Again there, historically, has been no Irish government for Northern Ireland to belong to.

Dutch Military pretty sucks. Just keep it British. Actually I don't mind...

As long as these fellows aren't running Gibraltar...


http://img229.exs.cx/img229/310/soldierofsurrender8vh.jpg

I say the place should be independent. Why not?

But how does it being attached mean anything?

Andorra and San Marino (amoung a host of similar places) retain autonomy with belonging to anyone else. Should Andorra belong to Spain?

It also brings a question of size (in terms of geography), at what size, in your opinion, is nesessary for autonomy?

It not being attached means that it can't just belong to the spanish, it was open to takers, and the British took.

As long as these fellows aren't running Gibraltar...


http://img229.exs.cx/img229/310/soldierofsurrender8vh.jpg

I say the place should be independent. Why not?


Because it is not our decision. Britain would not freely give up an asset that they fairly won.

It says Iceland has only been in control of domestic affairs since 1918, and foreign relations since 1944

The Danish are stupid people and took an agreement we had with the KING of Denamrk many centuries ago and changed it after the King submitted to parliment rule and said now Iceland is part of Denmark and the Danish people.
We were a free nation in union with the KING. They "gave" us home rule 1918 and after the Germans took over Denmark we said screw them and decleard independance 1944.
Do you think we were only Icelanders after 1918? My people are the native people of this land and did not get into union until many centuries after we came here first over 1000 years ago.
Iceland has the oldest parliment in the world-ICELANDIC.

History not time. I tihnk it is bullsh** that it is part of the U.K. because of a war just like I think parts of Poland should be returned to Germany and the north of Ireland to the Irish.
And it doesn't matter what you think is or isn't bullshit. People can say it is bullshit that the south of Ireland broke away from the UK just because of a lousy civil war and dirty Irish rebels. In the real world, might is right, and Britain has the best claim to Gibraltar because it has a strong presence, both military and civilian, in the area. These historical events have occurred, and unless you can force the British fleet from Gibraltar, you'll have to deal with it.

It must be Dutch! As most of you probably don't know, the Dutch helped the British to conquer Gibraltar in the 1700's or something.

Yes and we gave you what is now called South Africa in return :p

It not being attached means that it can't just belong to the spanish,

The CIA disagree with you:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/gi-map.gif
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gi.html

it was open to takers, and the British took.

However, you still haven't my question regarding the size a place has to be for it to be autonomous in its own right.

1st. Gibraltar is in the Spanish mainland, as it's part of the Iberian Peninsula.
2nd. Gibraltar wasn't conquered it was given to the British along with Minorca in the Utrecht traty that ends the Spanish Sucession War, where the British supported the Habsurg pretendant. (The Dutch did not take part in that war)
3rd. Self determinatio should apply as long as it doesn't affect the satus quo or the Spanis territorial continuity. (that make's it British)
4th. Gibratar should cease being a fiscal paradise and apply spanish navigation laws.

The Danish are stupid people and took an agreement we had with the KING of Denamrk many centuries ago and changed it after the King submitted to parliment rule and said now Iceland is part of Denmark and the Danish people.
We were a free nation in union with the KING. They "gave" us home rule 1918 and after the Germans took over Denmark we said screw them and decleard independance 1944.
Do you think we were only Icelanders after 1918? My people are the native people of this land and did not get into union until many centuries after we came here first over 1000 years ago.
Iceland has the oldest parliment in the world-ICELANDIC.
and?

according to you, all that doesnt matter to Gibralter, or to Northern Ireland...all that matters is things should be put as they were a few hundred years ago

i presume you think the native americans should get america back?

And it doesn't matter what you think is or isn't bullshit. People can say it is bullshit that the south of Ireland broke away from the UK just because of a lousy civil war and dirty Irish rebels. In the real world, might is right, and Britain has the best claim to Gibraltar because it has a strong presence, both military and civilian, in the area. These historical events have occurred, and unless you can force the British fleet from Gibraltar, you'll have to deal with it.

Depands what side you take. I really think it is the people that live there that should say what they want and they did.
I am just saying that Spain had it and it was part of Spain but many English people live there now and things have changed because of that.
P.S. I think there is only one Gibraltar regiment there. The British military left a few years ago.

The land ought to belong to the United Kingdom. Spain and the UK fought a war centuries ago and Spain lost, and accepted its loss by signing the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. Ever since then it has been British sovereign territory as it was surrendered by Spain to the UK.

To say the land is Spanish is saying that the area along the Mississippi River is Native American or French... but lastly American. Or you have that Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico should all be northern provinces of Mexico. A good part of northeast China should therefore be Japan's since they successfully invaded and held the territory before the capitulation.

I understand the idea that as a peninsula on the Iberian Peninsula, Gibraltar should belong to Spain, however the fact is that the United Kingdom was given the land as what are basically war reparations.

Besides, if Spain wants Gibraltar they should forfeit Cueta, the city they hold on what some would consider Morocco's sovereign territory. It's the same thing as Gibraltar only Spain owns Morocco's land.

Spain could always go the way of Argentina and try to "take back" what's "their's". :D

All they need is a tinpot military junta and inflation running at hundreds of % and they might just be able to emulate their south american cousins' circumstances in that 'war' :)

and?

according to you, all that doesnt matter to Gibralter, or to Northern Ireland...all that matters is things should be put as they were a few hundred years ago

i presume you think the native americans should get america back?

Depends what side you take. I think that the U.S. should give them more land then they have, yes.

The CIA disagree with you:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/gi-map.gif
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gi.html



However, you still haven't my question regarding the size a place has to be for it to be autonomous in its own right.

I have not answered your question because quite honestly i do not know.
I was only trying to get the original question answered about who it belonged to. the reason i have rambled on is due to the mass of morons who keep saying it belongs to britain because they want to be british.

In fact surely the US return to British rule?

Like I said, depends what side you take. In this case British rule can kiss Americas a**.

The land ought to belong to the United Kingdom. Spain and the UK fought a war centuries ago and Spain lost, and accepted its loss by signing the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713. Ever since then it has been British sovereign territory as it was surrendered by Spain to the UK.

To say the land is Spanish is saying that the area along the Mississippi River is Native American or French... but lastly American. Or you have that Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico should all be northern provinces of Mexico. A good part of northeast China should therefore be Japan's since they successfully invaded and held the territory before the capitulation.

I understand the idea that as a peninsula on the Iberian Peninsula, Gibraltar should belong to Spain, however the fact is that the United Kingdom was given the land as what are basically war reparations.



Actually Spain and Britan didn't fight any war but it was a civil war for the spanish throne, after Carles II died with no sons or daugthers, were Britain and Austria supported the Habsburg pertendant, alon with Aragonese Nobles and France Supported the Bourbon Pretendant (Philip V) along with Castilian nobles. Basicly Gibraltar was given to the British so they stoped supporting any pretendant, and the Bourbon prtendant raised to the throne.

Like I said, depends what side you take. In this case British rule can kiss Americas a**.

careful with the name-calling 'pal' or we'll consider your declaration of independence 'rescinded' ;)

President Blair anyone? or even (ew) President Howard, the Vamp of Camp David? :)

careful with the name-calling 'pal' or we'll consider your declaration of independence 'rescinded' ;)

President Blair anyone? or even (ew) President Howard, the Vamp of Camp David? :)

Good sence of humor, really. :)

careful with the name-calling 'pal' or we'll consider your declaration of independence 'rescinded' ;)

President Blair anyone? or even (ew) President Howard, the Vamp of Camp David? :)

:D

Though you do realise that the Declaration of Independence wasn't written for the Brits benefit.

:D

Though you do realise that the Declaration of Independence wasn't written for the Brits benefit.

With hindsight i'd say it was ;)

They wouldn't beable to. The British army would not get beaten by Spain.

That was kind of my point!

With hindsight i'd say it was ;)
Aye, nothing like rewriting history.