NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America. How is it that to be a Conservative is patriotic and to be a Liberal is anti-democracy?

I don't know what you're talking about. Which liberals claim to hate america?

If "liberals" actually did hate America, I think things like this thread are why. ;)

I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America. How is it that to be a Conservative is patriotic and to be a Liberal is anti-democracy?

Because the conservatives control our nation... That's reason enough to hate it.

I don't know what you're talking about. Which liberals claim to hate america?
The Liberal Democrats aren't too happy with it.

The liberals claim to be against almost everything America stands for, hence their hatred.

The Liberal Democrats aren't too happy with it.

I never heard bonnie charlie calling it the great shaitan though.

Personally, i think that the leaders of american neoconservatism are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.

It is annoying to me when american conservatives claim that it is the only/first democracy, and that it is a paradise and anyone having a bad time in america it is their own fault etc etc. But I don't think I hate it. I think it is top of my list of countries to visit.

Since when does the liberal party hate america?
and the liberal party isint conservative its inbetween right wing and left wing
and never does anything just keeps things the same

The liberals claim to be against almost everything America stands for, hence their hatred.

*hence*? what does *hence* mean in this context? Please rephrase that without using the word *hence*.

The liberals claim to be against almost everything America stands for, hence their hatred.

1. Where officially are these values.
2. Acting against something (whether it is true or not) does not = hatred.

eg. I'm against the Monarchy, I certainly don't hate it.

I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America. How is it that to be a Conservative is patriotic and to be a Liberal is anti-democracy?

Where in hell did you get the idea that liberals hate democracy?

We are the only ones to see the truth :D

Seriously, who are 'liberals'? Is it like opposite to Conservative?
I thought Americans were liberals in sence of capitalizm and stuff?
Or is todays liberalism different than 100-200 years ago?

Ooh boy, this will be good...

*pops some popcorn*
*sits back to watch the thread*

Against privatizing social security, against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating), against free enterprise, against equal rights (affirmative action), against moral values, against, against, against

a little Zell Miller-D

The liberals claim to be against almost everything America stands for, hence their hatred.
Bullshit. I'm a liberal and I love my country. I think liberals like me actually support what America stands for, and many conservatives are against true American values like personal freedom, economic opportunity, equal rights, and individuality.

Okay i'm A liberal and I certainly don't hate The USA. I live here. If I hated it, would I still live in the country? Jeez, this is why I sometimes hate the people in the United States. If you disagree with the US, you autmatically hate it.

Against privatizing social security, against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating), against free enterprise, against equal rights (affirmative action), against moral values, against, against, against

a little Zell Miller-D
What America stands for according to Velkomen:

Privatised Social Security
Liberating Iraq.
Free Enterprise
Equal Rights
Moral Values
And against punctuation marks (well the [,] anyway).

I thought it was for Life, Liberty and the persuit of freedom. Of which on two of yours are parralel too (and two of those Liberals aren't against)

Bullshit. I'm a liberal and I love my country. I think liberals like me actually support what America stands for, and many conservatives are against true American values like personal freedom, economic opportunity, equal rights, and individuality.

The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are for personal freedom.

Both are so inconsistent on this.

Democrats are typically against the personal freedom of carrying a firearm (by a law abiding citizen).

Republicans are typically against the personal freedom of abortion for women.

Democrats are typically for restricting your speech if it's politically incorrect.

Republicans are typically for restricting your speech if it's obscene.

Basically, if one is in charge, get ready to lose some of your rights.

... Honestly, I think the worst thing the Founding Fathers ever did was to put in the bit about citizens carrying firearms and not underlining repeatedly the part of a well-organized militia being the ones able to have the weapons...

But then again, you'd have to be able to read in order to know this - so that says something about the literacy rate in America.

How is privatised welfare a great american freedom? The freedom to have your tax money given to already very rich people instead of the poor people who would benefit from it?

I'm with whispering legs, strangely. Government restricts freedom. It is just a question of which freedoms get restricted. I'm glad the government restricts people's freedom to burgle my house.

Bullshit. I'm a liberal and I love my country. I think liberals like me actually support what America stands for, and many conservatives are against true American values like personal freedom, economic opportunity, equal rights, and individuality.

bullshit

economic opportunity -- economic FREEDOM is an american value... "economic opportunity" is your spin on socialism.

equal rights -- you mean as long as minorities get preferential treatment? as they do with affirmative action/quota hiring? the only way to end racism is to IGNORE RACE.

personal freedom -- fine... but if you go crashing into the Republican National Convention acting like a lunatic, you will be arrested.

Individuality -- fine

Hey, here's another American value: PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

I know that many liberals love the dependent relationship the lazy (not the hard-working poor... ) poor have with the government, and how they can get votes by promising these people that they'll reach into the pockets of the rich and middle class and redistribute their hard-earned money to those lazy people...

dependence on government is not an American ideal. Personal responsibility is such an ideal. It means that if you are physically and mentally able, you go out and do for yourself. you do NOT sit on your ass and live off another man's work.

Against privatizing social security
I know nothing about social security, myself.
against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating)
I supported the liberation of Iraq.
against free enterprise
:confused:
against equal rights (affirmative action)
Affirmative action is wrong.
against moral values
No, against his moral values.
Some people seem to think morality is oppressing whoever their holy book says isn't going to heaven. They seem to miss the part of their holy book where it says to be tolerant of others...
I have morals, thank you very much, as do almost all people, liberal or conservative. Suggesting liberals have no morals is just idiotic.

We are the only ones to see the truth :D

Seriously, who are 'liberals'? Is it like opposite to Conservative?
I thought Americans were liberals in sence of capitalizm and stuff?
Or is todays liberalism different than 100-200 years ago?

LIberalism retains a faith in the possibilities of improvement in present social conditions, which is related to the idea of progress widely accepted in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. That idea embraced the prospects for developments in knowlege and welfare.

So... during the revolutionary war the liberals were the ones fighting for freedom against the British. However, the modern liberal has taken an opposing view to everyting and anything. Today's conservative would be a liberal between 50 to 250 years ago. Remember that it was the Republicans (conservatives) who freed the slaves, who gave women sufferage, fought against the Jim Crow laws, broke up trusts, and support democracy around the globe.

Against privatizing social security, against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating), against free enterprise, against equal rights (affirmative action), against moral values, against, against, against

a little Zell Miller-D
I challenge you to a duel

Why are Republicans against:
1) Supporting the people of THIS nation instead of those of other nations
2) Increasing taxes proportional to spending
3) Against gun control
4) Against anything else Democrats do

Yar, the Pirates of the Internet declare Republicans hyppocrites

bullshit

economic opportunity -- economic FREEDOM is an american value... "economic opportunity" is your spin on socialism.

equal rights -- you mean as long as minorities get preferential treatment? as they do with affirmative action/quota hiring? the only way to end racism is to IGNORE RACE.
I like how you jumped on him there and told him what he thought!
How did you guess? Are you a psychic?
:rolleyes:

Let's not forget that there are per year 80,000 cases of Police brutality filed(making it the largest most violent gang out there I believe)

As well as your nearly exponential rate of poverty, illiteracy and DUH DUH DUHHHHHH Violent crime!


You guys need to smarten up. The world is watching something die from the inside, and this thing is big, big enough that it's body could suffocate the rest of the world.


:) Have a nice day.

P.S.

George Bush is not a conservative, he is a fiscal disaster as well as he has no problems abrdiging the constitution to ban marital relationships for certain people based on gender.

The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are for personal freedom.

Both are so inconsistent on this.

Democrats are typically against the personal freedom of carrying a firearm (by a law abiding citizen).

Republicans are typically against the personal freedom of abortion for women.

Democrats are typically for restricting your speech if it's politically incorrect.

Republicans are typically for restricting your speech if it's obscene.

Basically, if one is in charge, get ready to lose some of your rights.
Yeah, but I'm not a democrat. I'm a liberal. I'm pro gun. I'm pro choice (until the fetus develops a functioning brain). I'm in favor of no restrictons on speech. That's a big part of what America is about.

I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America. How is it that to be a Conservative is patriotic and to be a Liberal is anti-democracy?

I don't hate America (or the USA). ;)

I don't agree with the US foreign policy though, some people seem to think that means that I hate them though. Part of that you're with us or you're against us mindset maybe?

However, the modern liberal has taken an opposing view to everyting and anything.
I'm perplexed as to where you got that idea...
Ity's an interesting definition of liberal. Wrong, but interesting.

I am a liberal and I don't hate America. What I hate is 'Muhrikkka. Which is what this nation that I once served is becoming. Being run into the ground by red neck xstains who only love power and money. They lie to suit their desires and demonize what is not like them.

... Honestly, I think the worst thing the Founding Fathers ever did was to put in the bit about citizens carrying firearms and not underlining repeatedly the part of a well-organized militia being the ones able to have the weapons...

But then again, you'd have to be able to read in order to know this - so that says something about the literacy rate in America.

The militia they spoke of was defined in the Militia Act. That was later codified in the United States Code.

The militia is all able-bodied male citizens between the ages of 18 and 45.

It is not the National Guard. The amendment appears (in light of the writings of the Founders) to apply to the body of men in the country - who would be armed so that they could, at a moment's notice, form the militia.

Of course, you would have to be able to read in order to know this, so that says something about the literacy rate outside of America.

Yeah, but I'm not a democrat. I'm a liberal. I'm pro gun. I'm pro choice (until the fetus develops a functioning brain). I'm in favor of no restrictons on speech. That's a big part of what America is about.


Wish you were in charge, as opposed to Bush.

I'm perplexed as to where you got that idea...
Ity's an interesting definition of liberal. Wrong, but interesting.
I think the problem is more that he's mixing the US definition of liberal with the international one...

I for one would be horrified to be called a liberal. ;)

I am not a 'liberal' but I will not let this stop me from hating the USA. :D

bullshit

economic opportunity -- economic FREEDOM is an american value... "economic opportunity" is your spin on socialism.

equal rights -- you mean as long as minorities get preferential treatment? as they do with affirmative action/quota hiring? the only way to end racism is to IGNORE RACE.

personal freedom -- fine... but if you go crashing into the Republican National Convention acting like a lunatic, you will be arrested.

Individuality -- fine

Hey, here's another American value: PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

I know that many liberals love the dependent relationship the lazy (not the hard-working poor... ) poor have with the government, and how they can get votes by promising these people that they'll reach into the pockets of the rich and middle class and redistribute their hard-earned money to those lazy people...

dependence on government is not an American ideal. Personal responsibility is such an ideal. It means that if you are physically and mentally able, you go out and do for yourself. you do NOT sit on your ass and live off another man's work.
Economic opportunity is a great American value. The ability to make one's fortune based on one's talent and wits regardless of race, religion, and political connections is central to building a strong economy.

Equal rights means just that. Equal. That means blacks don't get stopped on the highway just because they fit the profile of someone who might have crack in the car. They get shown the same homes in the same neighborhoods by real estate agents. That kind of equal rights. Quotas are only necessary until we reach the level where blacks and whites are treated equally. Then they become an anachronism. A tool used to help blacks when they couldn't get a fair deal.

Great rights come with great responsibility. I'm a liberal. I beleive in maximizing freedom. I also beleive in taking the consequences for your actions. Why would you assume I don't?

Of course, you would have to be able to read in order to know this, so that says something about the literacy rate outside of America.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_tot_pop

according to the cia world fact book 2003, the US isn't in the top 50 for literacy.

I for one would be horrified to be called a liberal. ;)
Of which sort?
:confused:

I challenge you to a duel

Why are Republicans against:
1) Supporting the people of THIS nation instead of those of other nations
2) Increasing taxes proportional to spending
3) Against gun control
4) Against anything else Democrats do

Yar, the Pirates of the Internet declare Republicans hyppocrites

It's the Liberals against Conservatives. Conservatives have straight forward views, and have had them since 1865.

1) do your homework
2) do your economic homework
3) Guns are part of America, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
4) over way around

Of which sort?
:confused:
I think the Aussie liberals are centre-right :confused:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_lit_tot_pop

according to the cia world fact book 2003, the US isn't in the top 50 for literacy.

Neither are the foreigners who try to read our Constitution. They seem to not understand that "militia" is defined in our laws, and is not the National Guard. And that the definition of militia is "all able-bodied men between the ages of 18 and 45".

Of which sort?
:confused:
As in the ruling party in Australia, mmm convervative and elitist.

Or the American kind for that matter, as it implies reformism and crappy champagne socialism... At least to me. :p Or even worse, being a Democrat... They're just republican-lite. Two party systems rule... :rolleyes:

It's the Liberals against Conservatives. Conservatives have straight forward views, and have had them since 1865.

1) do your homework
I fail to see how writing an essay of Marcuse's critique of capitalist society will help me on this.

2) do your economic homework
I fail to see how writing about the emmergance of the public sphere in early modern Europe will help me with this.

3) Guns are part of America, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Gun control is not banning firearms.

4) over way around

As in the ruling party in Australia, mmm convervative and elitist.

Or the American kind for that matter, as it implies reformism and crappy champagne socialism... At least to me. :p Or even worse, being a Democrat... They're just republican-lite. Two party systems rule... :rolleyes:

The word liberal depends on how far a society has progressed. The more freedom a country has the more conservatives you will have, because conservatives like the statis quo

The word liberal depends on how far a society has progressed. The more freedom a country has the more conservatives you will have, because conservatives like the statis quo
So Liberals (capital L liberals) only like freedom up to a certain point? Rrright.

Psshht, screw the status quo. I'm a brown woman descended from dirt-poor people, the status quo didn't do me any favours. :p

If you did any of the homework I assigned you, you would have figured out the answers.

I never heard bonnie charlie calling it the great shaitan though.

Personally, i think that the leaders of american neoconservatism are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.


My turn....

Personally, i think that the leaders of american [liberalism] are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.


geesh, it works both ways don't it? Scare tactics are things both sides use, so lets not turn a blind eye and be so blatantly partisan to the issues.

"Bush is hitler and will turn America into Nazi germany..." Tell me thats not a scare tactic?

If you did any of the homework I assigned you, you would have figured out the answers.
I like this response!
So you're basically telling them "You don't know what you're talking about" instead of refuting the points!

It's genius!

Gun control is not banning firearms.

To Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer, gun control IS banning firearms.

To the Maryland legislature, gun control IS banning firearms.

Maybe not to you, but to the majority of Democrats who say the words, "gun control" = "total ban on firearms".

If we look at the way they talk, and then look at what they vote for, we get an even clearer picture.

Maybe not to you, but to the majority of Democrats who say the words, "gun control" = "total ban on firearms".
ERROR!

Liberal=/=Democrat

If you did any of the homework I assigned you, you would have figured out the answers.
What homework.

I'm honestly interested how you think decreasing taxes and increasing spending is a good idea. The first part I understand, just not when added to the second.

I thought being part of a conservative was being fiscally responsible. Giving a country a huge deficit is not being fiscally responsible.

I like this response!
So you're basically telling them "You don't know what you're talking about" instead of refuting the points!

It's genius!
And coming across realllly smug...

My turn....

Personally, i think that the leaders of american [liberalism] are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.


geesh, it works both ways don't it? Scare tactics are things both sides use, so lets not turn a blind eye and be so blatantly partisan to the issues.

"Bush is hitler and will turn America into Nazi germany..." Tell me thats not a scare tactic?

who said that? ever?

What was the name of the guy who championed neoconservatism in the 50s? leo something? it is in his manual "lie to the people - invent a threat to keep em godly and behind you". that isn't random scare tactics. it is a political ideology of mass deceit.

My turn....

Personally, i think that the leaders of american [liberalism] are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.


geesh, it works both ways don't it? Scare tactics are things both sides use, so lets not turn a blind eye and be so blatantly partisan to the issues.

"Bush is hitler and will turn America into Nazi germany..." Tell me thats not a scare tactic?

Bush isn't turning America into a Nazi Germany, he is turning it into an Oceania.

Just because I don't agree with the current state of American government doesn't mean I hate it. I don't like the fact that Bush is considering anyone who disagrees with him to be an enemy though.

So Liberals (capital L liberals) only like freedom up to a certain point? Rrright.

Psshht, screw the status quo. I'm a brown woman descended from dirt-poor people, the status quo didn't do me any favours. :p

Nooo... Conservatives no when enough is enough. The Liberals support progressive policies that would actually reverve freedom. Examples: National Medicare- taking money from the people, forcing them to invest a LARGE portion of their salary; Affirmative Action- in their warped way of thinking they think that people should be given help based on their sex or race rather than merit.

Why do Liberals hate America?


Why do you hate your mother?

I fail to see how writing an essay of Marcuse's critique of capitalist society will help me on this.


I fail to see how writing about the emmergance of the public sphere in early modern Europe will help me with this.


Gun control is not banning firearms.


Better listen to some of your liberal friends in congress about what they truly think about gun control, they might disagree with you.

Is all that fancy stuff supposed to impress us? Because it adds nothing to your arguement other than that you are unwilling to support your own views when challenged on them.

As for "Republicans against anything democrats do," I find it surprising that you didn't respond on this point, not even a little. Have you seen what has gone on recently with the social security debate? Bush didn't say anything about the status of social security that Clinton didn't already say when he was president. Yet, back then it was a democratic issue. Today, the Republicans claim the majority, and the dems are now somehow professing that there is absolutely nothing wrong. So what changed? The issue is being pushed by republicans this time, not democrats, therefore democrats oppose it.

Why do you hate your mother?

Was that called for? If you can't defend your own arguement, just leave, I'll understand, I'm used to it with liberals.

I like this response!
So you're basically telling them "You don't know what you're talking about" instead of refuting the points!

It's genius!

OR, that the point is so basic that it's not worth explaining...

Nooo... Conservatives no when enough is enough. The Liberals support progressive policies that would actually reverve freedom. Examples: National Medicare- taking money from the people, forcing them to invest a LARGE portion of their salary; Affirmative Action- in their warped way of thinking they think that people should be given help based on their sex or race rather than merit.

But throughout history conservatives have ALWAYS wanted to maintain the status quo, even when it was less equal than it is now. From that, I can infer that conservatives want to maintain the status quo, and thus develop their political position, out of their own self-interest.

The status quo suits them, andn they'd like to keep it that way.

Why do you hate your mother?


???

Better listen to some of your liberal friends in congress about what they truly think about gun control, they might disagree with you.
His "friends"?

Let me ask a question here.
Has anybody here stopped to think that not all liberals support the same things?
I'll ask it the other way around too, has anybody stopped to think that not all conservatives are the same?
Is all that fancy stuff supposed to impress us? Because it adds nothing to your arguement other than that you are unwilling to support your own views when challenged on them.
What it means is that the person on the other side was first challenged, and refused to support his views, saying "Do your homework". AC is saying that that is irrelevant, to which the original person again said "Do your homework".

Oops. Guess who's at fault here?
Not AC.

But throughout history conservatives have ALWAYS wanted to maintain the status quo, even when it was less equal than it is now. From that, I can infer that conservatives want to maintain the status quo, and thus develop their political position, out of their own self-interest.

The status quo suits them, andn they'd like to keep it that way.

You make a very good point. Although when it comes to Republicans and Democrats it's a different story.

OR, that the point is so basic that it's not worth explaining...

OR you can't explain it

You know what? I'm pissed as hell about all these friggin' generalizations about "America-hating liberals."

Get this through your skull: America is not an unchanging and monolithic thing. In theory, its policies and politics change to keep with the times as a result of debate and discussion between its citizens.This process is dependent on dissent and argument about policy. Right now, liberals are the underdogs and so they're arguing against the entrenched majority. A difference of opinion with the powerholders does not equal "America-hating."

I'm so sick of all this fucking bullshit about "America, love it or leave it." That's not what the country is. The guiding principle of any democracy is "love it or change it."

By claiming that arguing against the majority is equal to "America-hating," you're revealing a very narrow definition of America as "what I want it to be, without any room for argument." And you know what? That's anti-Democratic and anti-American.

Better listen to some of your liberal friends in congress about what they truly think about gun control, they might disagree with you.

*sigh*
What's in a name? My name in particular. I'm an Anarchist, I don't have friends in Congress.

Is all that fancy stuff supposed to impress us? Because it adds nothing to your arguement other than that you are unwilling to support your own views when challenged on them.

It isn't fancy. They are just essay titles I have to do. Not really that hard. And it appears I don't need to give any views. I give a dissenting view and it seems to be assumed I hold views I don't.

Does it add anything to an arguement?
No, but neither does "Do your homework" add to an arguement.

Don't take a flippant response so seriously.

As for "Republicans against anything democrats do," I find it surprising that you didn't respond on this point, not even a little.

:confused: Why would I respond to it. I ain't no fucking Democrat. This is a wide world. Not all non-Republicans are Democrats, or even liberal.

Have you seen what has gone on recently with the social security debate? Bush didn't say anything about the status of social security that Clinton didn't already say when he was president. Yet, back then it was a democratic issue. Today, the Republicans claim the majority, and the dems are now somehow professing that there is absolutely nothing wrong. So what changed? The issue is being pushed by republicans this time, not democrats, therefore democrats oppose it.

This may be part of the reason I'm not a Democrat.

You make a very good point. Although when it comes to Republicans and Democrats it's a different story.

because there conservatives don't want to maintain the status quo? that is waht conservative means - it means *wants to maintain the status quo*

His "friends"?

Let me ask a question here.
Has anybody here stopped to think that not all liberals support the same things?
I'll ask it the other way around too, has anybody stopped to think that not all conservatives are the same?

What it means is that the person on the other side was first challenged, and refused to support his views, saying "Do your homework". AC is saying that that is irrelevant, to which the original person again said "Do your homework".

Oops. Guess who's at fault here?
Not AC.

When an answer is so obvious it's not worth explaining.

OR, that the point is so basic that it's not worth explaining...
If it is so basic, you can obviously explain it very easily. Many people here doesn;t understand you, so it's quite obviously worth explaining, especially since you're trying to use it to support your views in a debate.

You *were* the one who is telling everybody to "do their homework" as a rebuttal to their argument, and I'm fairly sure that doesn't hold up too well...



So go ahead, we're waiting...

You make a very good point. Although when it comes to Republicans and Democrats it's a different story.

Well IMO they're both conservative parties, so m point stands.

And are you admitting to being selfish?

who said that? ever?

A prominent ad was placed on Moveon.org a few months back, and even under that harshest of critiscism from everyone, was not removed, hence suggesting that MoveOn agreed with it. This particular ad spliced in pictures of Hilter with pictures of Bush.

Now what, MoveOn isn't a liberal site? C'mon.

Also: Anti- (iraq war/Bush) protestors holding signs comparing Bush to hitler. I could also come up with tons of left wing propaganda showing similar scenes.

I guess you missed all that.

because there conservatives don't want to maintain the status quo? that is waht conservative means - it means *wants to maintain the status quo*

The Republicans broke up trusts, freed the slaves, gave women sufferage, fought against the Jim Crow laws

The Republicans fought against affirmative action, against social welfare.

the point is that Republicans know when to stop

A prominent ad was placed on Moveon.org a few months back, and even under that harshest of critiscism from everyone, was not removed, hence suggesting that MoveOn agreed with it. This particular ad spliced in pictures of Hilter with pictures of Bush.

Now what, MoveOn isn't a liberal site? C'mon.

Also: Anti- (iraq war/Bush) protestors holding signs comparing Bush to hitler. I could also come up with tons of left wing propaganda showing similar scenes.

I guess you missed all that.

Don't use the word 'hence' in this thread, some people take offense to it

When an answer is so obvious it's not worth explaining.
Do not think everyone is American or that everyone has been educated in the same things.

Still lowering taxes* and increasing spending seems like paving the road to ruin. And am still waiting for an explaination for it.


*Which I'm for btw.

The Republicans broke up trusts, freed the slaves, gave women sufferage, fought against the Jim Crow laws

The Republicans fought against affirmative action, against social welfare.

the point is that Republicans know when to stop

So... Society has attained its zenith? And people should stop fighting for improvements? Is that what you're saying?


I think I'll just go kill myself...

Don't use the word 'hence' in this thread, some people take offense to it
Yay for taking something out of context :rolleyes:

Wish you were in charge, as opposed to Bush.
I'm not rich, I'm not willing to be bought out, I don't have political connections, and I've done time. I can't be elected to anything.

The Republicans broke up trusts, freed the slaves, gave women sufferage, fought against the Jim Crow laws

The Republicans fought against affirmative action, against social welfare.

the point is that Republicans know when to stop

Republican != conservative.

Conservative != Republican.

Also, you act like party ideologies don't change.

If it is so basic, you can obviously explain it very easily. Many people here doesn;t understand you, so it's quite obviously worth explaining, especially since you're trying to use it to support your views in a debate.

You *were* the one who is telling everybody to "do their homework" as a rebuttal to their argument, and I'm fairly sure that doesn't hold up too well...



So go ahead, we're waiting...

One reason the terrorist hate us is because of how powerful and prosperous we are. America is on a different level than the 3rd world. If we do not support third world countries than it is inevidable that they will come after us. This is also true from an economic stand. Without worthy trading partners we will no prosperity ourselves. Despite what some people think we have to help the 3rd worlds economy. this is why we help others

Republican != conservative.

Conservative != Republican.

Also, you act like party ideologies don't change.


???

They do change!!!!! That's the point... Republicans used to be more liberal, now they are considered to be conservatve.....

Because the conservatives control our nation... That's reason enough to hate it.

No that's not enough reason to hate America. Conservatives didn't hate America when Carter was in power and the same when Clinton was in office (even before Republicans took Congress in '94). Administrations are not what make America what it is. The political freedoms we enjoy and the values we have are what make America what it is.

How can you hate your own country? Especially if you're an American. We have done so much over our short history, I don't understand how any American can hate what we are and what we stand for.

???

Republican doesn't men conservative.

Conservative doesn't mean Republican.

Yet you appear to be using the two interchangably.

They do change!!!!! That's the point... Republicans used to be more liberal, now they are considered to be conservatve.....
My bad :headbang: Your right. My mistake

*notes failure to address her last point*

depends on the time period,,,

How can you hate your own country?

I'd like to expand that. How can you hate any country. I understand about hating a government or the political system. But hating a country is just stupid.

My turn....

Personally, i think that the leaders of american [liberalism] are pretty hateful people, who deliberately and constantly lie to and scare their followers in order to secure their own power base.


geesh, it works both ways don't it? Scare tactics are things both sides use, so lets not turn a blind eye and be so blatantly partisan to the issues.

"Bush is hitler and will turn America into Nazi germany..." Tell me thats not a scare tactic?

How about cmeron diaz saying that if bush is elected, Rape will be legalised.

How about cmeron diaz saying that if bush is elected, Rape will be legalised.
There's a reason she's not a rocket scientist obviously.

How about cmeron diaz saying that if bush is elected, Rape will be legalised.
Yeah, because Cameron Diaz is such a brilliant political thinker. Let's base all our judgements about liberals on her. Let's also base all our judgements about Conservatives on Rev. Jerry Falwell.

How about cmeron diaz saying that if bush is elected, Rape will be legalised.


Isn't she one of those moveon.org libs?

It's amazing what some people will say for their own political beliefs

I'm not rich, I'm not willing to be bought out, I don't have political connections, and I've done time. I can't be elected to anything.

well, the only htink i have goign for me is political connections. In this state, it's who you know that gets you elected, i am planning to go into politics exentually.

???

They do change!!!!! That's the point... Republicans used to be more liberal, now they are considered to be conservatve.....

True. Goldwater saw to it that Conservatives took control of the Republican party. Reagan ensured it. However, in recent years it seems like there are Republicans who claim to be conservative but are just as "big gov't" as some Democrats. Hence (oops, did I offend anyone?) you have moderate Republicans.

Right now Republicans may govern the nation, but conservatives do not. Had Reagan been President and helped enough Republicans into Congress, we may have been able to effectively govern. Bush's stance on immigration is enough evidence that conservatives do not have complete control.

I thought it was for Life, Liberty and the persuit of freedom. Of which on two of yours are parralel too (and two of those Liberals aren't against)[/QUOTE]

pursuit of happiness, to be exact. :)

Going to lunch, will be back later

Hence (oops, did I offend anyone?)

:rolleyes:

Republican != conservative.

Conservative != Republican.

Also, you act like party ideologies don't change.

Your right, one can be a conservative democrat or a liberal Republica. To me, the titles "Republican" and "Democrat" mean nothing. It matters if your a conservative, liberal, neocon, anarchist...etc...you get my point. BEcause those state beliegs and ideas, not party names and claims.

pursuit of happiness, to be exact. :)

Sorry, mind elsewhere at the moment.

That's what I meant.

Republican != conservative.

Conservative != Republican.

Also, you act like party ideologies don't change.

Your right, one can be a conservative democrat or a liberal Republica. To me, the titles "Republican" and "Democrat" mean nothing. It matters if your a conservative, liberal, neocon, anarchist...etc...you get my point. Because those state beliefs and ideas, not party names and claims.

True. Goldwater saw to it that Conservatives took control of the Republican party. Reagan ensured it. However, in recent years it seems like there are Republicans who claim to be conservative but are just as "big gov't" as some Democrats. Hence (oops, did I offend anyone?) you have moderate Republicans.

Right now Republicans may govern the nation, but conservatives do not. Had Reagan been President and helped enough Republicans into Congress, we may have been able to effectively govern. Bush's stance on immigration is enough evidence that conservatives do not have complete control.
Bush's stand on immigration is just throwing a bone to the business interests that contributed so much to his election. Guestworkers mean more competition for jobs and lower wages. Lower wages mean higher profits.

I'd like to expand that. How can you hate any country. I understand about hating a government or the political system. But hating a country is just stupid.

I agree.

On a different note, I have a question for you since you're a self-proclaimed anarchist: Anarchists by definition do not like organizations because they are oppressive or undesirable, yet by calling yourself an anarchist you've put your ideology under a label and at some level, an organized ideology. Please explain!

Bush's stand on immigration is just throwing a bone to the business interests that contributed so much to his election. Guestworkers mean more competition for jobs and lower wages. Lower wages mean higher profits.

Yeah, that's one aspect of it that pisses me off so much. But that's a topic for another thread and an issue that many conservatives have a HUGE problem with.

I agree.

On a different note, I have a question for you since you're a self-proclaimed anarchist: Anarchists by definition do not like organizations because they are oppressive or undesirable, yet by calling yourself an anarchist you've put your ideology under a label and at some level, an organized ideology. Please explain!

Flawed from the outset. Anarchist are not against organisation (Highlighted by the slogan; Educatem Agitate, Organise!) Although Anarchism isn't particuarly organised, there is usually at least one thing you can get two anarchists to disagree on:).

Lower wages mean higher profits.
It also means more widespread poverty.

It also means more widespread poverty.
I don't think Bush's major campaing contributors really care about poverty as long as their profits stay high.

It also means more widespread poverty.
What part of higher prophits don't you understand :p

Though I like Bush and proclaim myself a Neocon, one thing Bush has don't a horrible job on is stopping illegal immigration.

Though I like Bush and proclaim myself a Neocon, one thing Bush has don't a horrible job on is stopping illegal immigration.

Damn school keyboards. Correction: Though I like Bush and proclaim myself a Neocon, one thing Bush does that's a horrible job is his stance and actions on illegal immigration.

I apologize, haha

yet by calling yourself an anarchist you've put your ideology under a label and at some level, an organized ideology.

How is "anarchism" an organised ideology? Who organises it? The Pope Of Anarchy and his Anarchic Priesthood? What are you thinking?

How is "anarchism" an organised ideology? Who organises it? The Pope Of Anarchy and his Anarchic Priesthood? What are you thinking?
Well it's really a world wide cult of a form of ancestor worship. We mummified Proudhon, Bakunin et al and we all go and worship the on the first of May every year.

Against privatizing social security, against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating), against free enterprise, against equal rights (affirmative action), against moral values, against, against, against

a little Zell Miller-D

I hate America? That's news to me.
Well, I hate to break it to you, but liberals do not oppose equal rights, free enterprise, and moral values, and if you truly believe this to be the case then you likely haven't met a liberal and had a realy conversation with them ONCE in your entire life. If you had, I think your tune might just be SLIGHTLY different.

Against privatizing social security
Being against privatising institutions that were created with OUR tax dollars is not anti-American. Opposing privatisation is not unpatriotic or anti-American but supporting the selling off of state assets that OUR tax money went into building up IS anti-American.

against liberating Iraq (unless it's a Democrat doing the liberating)
Opposing military deployment is NOT anti-American. Committing hundreds of thousands of troops for a war for a war the basis of which was lies and money, IS anti-American.

against free enterprise
Show me any of the great media or industrial giants in this country that would even DREAM of true free enterprise and a free field of competition and I'll show you a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you. If you think that any of your beloved Bush-supporting industrial giants would support REAL free enterprise, then you're mistaken.

They only support free enterprise as long as its free enterprise for THEM to do whatever they want. Being supportive of regulation that protects consumer safety, economic health, and ensures an open field of play for America's small entrepeneurs is not anti-American.

against equal rights (affirmative action)
Show me how affirmative action is against equal rights. I'm a white male student in a university in the most diverse state in the country and yet at least 80% of my classmates are white. That's no mistake.

against moral values
Explain in detail what "moral values" is? Everyone talks about moral values, but no one on the conservative side of the divide has been able to talk about moral values beyond smarmy platitudes.

I'm a devout Christian (so there goes your argument that I'm against moral values), and so if we're talking about the moral values of the Bible, then I'd be more than game to argue scriptural points that take the actions of the Bush administration and rip them to shreds. This Bush government is among the most anti-moral administrations to have ever set foot in the White House.

against, against, against
In the words of a certain former president, "There you go again."

Well it's really a world wide cult of a form of ancestor worship. We mummified Proudhon, Bakunin et al and we all go and worship the on the first of May every year.

You know what I say to anarchists? If law is wrong, I'm going to smash your face in and nick your stereo.

You know what I say to anarchists? If law is wrong, I'm going to smash your face in and nick your stereo.

Ha. Interesting set of presuppositions you have there.

I never said that any one person or even a group hates America. I did say that some people disagree with American polices, and ask why liberals hate America or even if they do.

I never said that any one person or even a group hates America. I did say that some people disagree with American polices, and ask why liberals hate America or even if they do.

do you mean that liberals arent a group, or that a liberal isn't a person? And I'm sure the title of this thread is "Why do liberals hate america" not "Do liberals hate america".

Have you seen what has gone on recently with the social security debate? Bush didn't say anything about the status of social security that Clinton didn't already say when he was president. Yet, back then it was a democratic issue. Today, the Republicans claim the majority, and the dems are now somehow professing that there is absolutely nothing wrong. So what changed? The issue is being pushed by republicans this time, not democrats, therefore democrats oppose it.

No. The key difference is the approach to reform. True, both Clinton and Bush recognize that the SSA needs reform. However, Bush is working the hard sell on his privatization scheme whereas Clinton's reform plan was to change the guidelines to make more people eligible to pay into the SSA.

Dems are not objecting to SS reform generally, they're objecting specifically to the carveout plan. And they're not objecting for the sake of party conflict, they're objecting because it's not a good idea. Look into it: There are a fair number of Republicans objecting to the scheme as well. Is that just because they hate the GOP too?

Why is used in a wondering sense. Why does micheal more make hatred films toward america, why are there teachers who call america the devil, why are people calling bush a baby killer, why do some people oppose democracy, why are people using the courts to reverse a referendum..........

And all of the responses that i'm getting in this thread tell me alot. :)

Why is used in a wondering sense. Why does micheal more make hatred films toward america, why are there teachers who call america the devil, why are people calling bush a baby killer, why do some people oppose democracy, why are people using the courts to reverse a referendum..........

Because we have the freedom of speech.

"I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America....."

We don't hate America, just hate your unrealistic and phony vision of it

GEE! I'm just wondering why so many conservatives SHOW they hate America (by throwing taxpayer money to filthy rich mega corporations, thrashing local infrastructure and public schools, forcing their twisted, perverted idea of Christianity down the throats of free American citizens? Oh and while we're on that, how come our soldiers in Iraq are getting paid on average $20,000 a year while those individuals contracted to work for Bush buddies Halliburton in Iraq are raking in $120,000 while our soldiers lives are deliberately put on the line for these oil grubbing pigs? Does that sound right? OF COURSE IT DOES! YOU'RE A CONSERVATIVE! You don't mind raping public resources to line the pockets of corrupt individuals! (so much for moral integrity for our country and our troops.)

We started the Bush II regime with a nearly a trillion dollar surplus, now we're TRILLIONS in debt (so much for fiscal responsibility.)

Not to mention wasting billions of tax dollars on trying to fight unwinnable wars on drugs, gay marriage, abortion and "indecency" through the Federal Communications Commission over words on the radio that you can always hear on school playgrounds. (so much for personal liberty and state's rights.)

I just dumbfounds me the stupidity of you rat-faced conservatives. Do you actually think after we let you and your cronies trash this country since 2000 that you can still point to liberals as the bad people anymore? How come there is such a backlash across America against conservative hate talk radio? How come so many Republicans and conservatives (from Pat Buchannan to John McCain) have done enough soul searching and realized the current road the neo-con twerps like you are taking this country is destroying this democracy. And now they want to destroy Social Security too.

"I was just wondering why so many liberals claim to hate America. How is it that to be a Conservative is patriotic and to be a Liberal is anti-democracy?"

Better open up your eyes and smell the coffee boy, the hypocritical conservative mind games aren't working anymore.....

Ok fine. Hide behind the 1st, but that doesn't take away from the content of those statements and beliefs.

I hate America!??!?!?! Wow, I didnt know being liberal means you hate america. ;)

Apparently they are. And I can tell it's really pissing you off! ;)

I think what Conservatives dont understand is the diffrence between not being thrilled with some of the people that run this country and some of the policies they then enact. But hating America not at all. All of liberal friends and I love America and that is why we try so hard to get it out of the hands of people who think are destroying.


Remember what Thomas Jefferson said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

Why is used in a wondering sense. Why does micheal more make hatred films toward america, why are there teachers who call america the devil, why are people calling bush a baby killer, why do some people oppose democracy, why are people using the courts to reverse a referendum..........

First off, I think WL has a point: You're coming from the position that liberals do hate America or, at the very least, a position that's very biased against said liberals.

The paragraph above very clearly demonstrates this. For example, the reason people are using the courts to reverse a referendum is because this is how the system works. These are the famed "checks and balances." These people are not "hating" America so much as "participating" in America. Same goes for Moore and Farenheit 9/11. Loving America does not mean supporting everything the U.S. does. Loving America means taking a part in the course of your country. If you think it's headed in the wrong direction, you exercise your freedom of speech, you vote, you protest, you make movies or write op-eds.

Why is used in a wondering sense. Why does micheal more make hatred films toward america, why are there teachers who call america the devil, why are people calling bush a baby killer, why do some people oppose democracy, why are people using the courts to reverse a referendum..........

I didn't realize Michael Moore hated America. He simply has a left-wing nut-job outlook on it. He does not hate America, but George Bush. (on a related note, this is why non-Americans say they hate America- they view Bush's actions as representative of the whole nation [okay, not the whole reason, but one of them])
Teachers (some of them) have every right to call America the devil. I don't know why they do it, but whatever.
Why do people call Bush a baby-killer? Well, the left favours abortion in general, so that can't be it- wait don't some conservatives call liberals baby killers? But anyway, how many children do you think died in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is at least a semi-plausible reason for you.
Why do some people oppose democracy? Last I checked, fascists and various other right-wing dictators also oppose democracy, so calling it a liberal trait is a fallacy.
Do those answer your questions?

Admit it people, you dislike our leader, you dislike almost everything that America stands for, hence your hatred! :sniper:

The more you all speak the more hate I see in you. Keep it coming!

Admit it people, you dislike our leader, you dislike almost everything that America stands for, hence your hatred! :sniper:

The more you all speak the more hate I see in you. Keep it coming!

Does that mean that you concede all the points I made because you declined to address them?

and if you liked America than you wouldn't be trying to change it, would you......

Admit it people, you dislike our leader, you dislike almost everything that America stands for, hence your hatred! :sniper:

The more you all speak the more hate I see in you. Keep it coming!

Either you're Yoda or you're sarcastic. Also, since when does our leader have anything to do with what America stands for?

Ok fine. Hide behind the 1st, but that doesn't take away from the content of those statements and beliefs.

I think that you don't understand.

The Americans who say bad things about events and people in America, or who make movies or write books or blogs about what they hate about America are being American.

We can do that here - we can disparage our President, or protest in front of the White House, or get on national TV and say "he's stupid", and make a movie that says, "Bush is a wanker" and we can go with real evidence, or we can go with a gut feeling and no evidence.

It's called disagreement. It's called distrust of authority. We exercise it all the time. It's sometimes called public discourse - but this isn't your grandpa's public discourse.

Just because you read that someone in America has criticized America doesn't mean that any of it is true, or even that some of it is false. What it does mean is that our system here in America is working - we are a powerful and successful nation - and even when some people think we're doing the right things - war, eating fast food, being religious, whatever - there will always be some Americans who stand up and say, "Hey, I think that's the wrong thing!"

You can even be a complete nutjob here - you can get up and deny the Holocaust - or say that you were anointed by space aliens to lead the country. In the first instance, no one will care if you shout that from the street corners - and in the second instance, you could run for President if you got enough signatures on a petition.

Just because Americans criticize themselves does not mean that the criticism has any validity, nor does it mean that America is tearing itself apart.

We, as a people, are more different from state to state, than people within any single European country. Stop thinking of the US as some homogenized, uniform society, and you'll have a better idea of what's going on.

and if you liked America than you wouldn't be trying to change it, would you......

I like apple pie. However, I aslo like apple pie with ice cream. Just because I have a desire to improve something does not mean I hate the original product.
Just out of curiosity, is your IQ above room temperature?

and if you liked America than you wouldn't be trying to change it, would you......

Hello!?! Democracy, anyone? You know what kind of government doesn't allow citizens to effect change? Dictatorships.

I think that you don't understand.

The Americans who say bad things about events and people in America, or who make movies or write books or blogs about what they hate about America are being American.

We can do that here - we can disparage our President, or protest in front of the White House, or get on national TV and say "he's stupid", and make a movie that says, "Bush is a wanker" and we can go with real evidence, or we can go with a gut feeling and no evidence.

It's called disagreement. It's called distrust of authority. We exercise it all the time. It's sometimes called public discourse - but this isn't your grandpa's public discourse.

Just because you read that someone in America has criticized America doesn't mean that any of it is true, or even that some of it is false. What it does mean is that our system here in America is working - we are a powerful and successful nation - and even when some people think we're doing the right things - war, eating fast food, being religious, whatever - there will always be some Americans who stand up and say, "Hey, I think that's the wrong thing!"

You can even be a complete nutjob here - you can get up and deny the Holocaust - or say that you were anointed by space aliens to lead the country. In the first instance, no one will care if you shout that from the street corners - and in the second instance, you could run for President if you got enough signatures on a petition.

Just because Americans criticize themselves does not mean that the criticism has any validity, nor does it mean that America is tearing itself apart.

We, as a people, are more different from state to state, than people within any single European country. Stop thinking of the US as some homogenized, uniform society, and you'll have a better idea of what's going on.


Amen.

and if you liked America than you wouldn't be trying to change it, would you......

Everything can be improved. That's why it took America only 200 years to achieve what it took the Europeans 1000 years to accomplish.

And you still haven't really united Europe yet...

Double amen and props to WL.

So why do liberals hate america

The problem is that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are for personal freedom.

Both are so inconsistent on this.

Democrats are typically against the personal freedom of carrying a firearm (by a law abiding citizen).

Republicans are typically against the personal freedom of abortion for women.

Democrats are typically for restricting your speech if it's politically incorrect.

Republicans are typically for restricting your speech if it's obscene.

Basically, if one is in charge, get ready to lose some of your rights.

Which is why we need the Libertarians in charge. They're the ones who are actually complete on freedoms. =D

On another track, I don't think American Liberals hate America. I think, for the most part, they love America. At the outside, they love her ideals even if they hate what they see her as (Michael Moore, anyone?). But the fact that he could get up and make that movie shows that America is working, if not perfectly, pretty damn well. You try and do that here and it just wouldn't work - not outside of 11pm on Channel 4, at the least.

I'm Liberal and I don't hate America.

So why do liberals hate america

The problem with answering that is that they don't. The majority of liberals do not hate America.

Some may hate Bush. Some may not. Some may hate some of his policies - but which ones they hate will vary. I've seen liberals who are in favor of the war in Iraq (Liberman) and some who are against (Feinstein).

Are you saying that all American liberals are the same? Really?

So why do liberals hate america

I call troll.

Well, the other day, after I had called to wish bin Laden good luck in his attempts to destroy America, I sacrificed my monthly newborn infant, and then my Lord Satan appeared to me - in the form of Ted Kennedy, of course - and tried to explain that he doesn't hate America, that he and all his army of Hitler Liberals were simply misunderstood. I agree, personally.