NationStates Jolt Archive

(the god written of in the bible)

u guys wanna discuss!! :)

No, i surely do not want to discuss this.

Oh, this thread is going to go down :(

No I don't beleive in her.
I'm unsure about higher power, but God in the bible? No Way!

nope. prove his existance to me somehow and i'll believe

Oh, this thread is going to do down :(

No I don't beleive in her.
I'm unsure about higher power, but God in the bible? No Way!

her? interesting how you refer to something that you don't believe in as a "she"

nope. prove his existance to me somehow and i'll believe

Not this again

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D

her? interesting how you refer to something that you don't believe in as a "she"


Well, in this case it doesn't matter, 'cause if I would refered(?) her 'him'
Then I would have believed him being male... (If that mede sence) :confused:
It isn't either way, so it doesn't matter.

Well, in this case it doesn't matter, 'cause if I would refered(?) her 'him'
Then I would have believed him being male... (If that mede sence) :confused:
It isn't either way, so it doesn't matter.

Nope, that is one of the most confusing things i have ever read

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D


I hope you find the truth about 'housekeepers' :D

im glad to see no1 had selected the 4th option yet :D

Not this again
yes........again...

im glad to see no1 had selected the 4th option yet :D

well, its kind of a silly option that doesnt really belong there. What does the way you feel about him (hate, love, indifference, jealousy or whatever) have to do with whether you believe in him or not? The question of how you feel about him would be a whole different thread.

if i was pro at computers id do the quote box and say




I hope you find the truth about 'housekeepers' from ^



and i would say sumthin like "thx lol"

Nope, that is one of the most confusing things i have ever read


I guessed so, but anyway you don't wonder about the him/her business
anymore. Yay :p

Used to but not now... next question please

I would question anyone who says they're unsure whether they believe in God or not.... surely you either believe something or you don't. You can be unsure if he exists, but not unsure as to whether you believe in him or not. Hmmm.... interesting.

yeh well it does

my point of the poll was to find out why ppl hate him

i couldnt ask

1- u like god

2- u hate him


cos alot of ppl who said "no" would select 2 cos they dun beleive in him

if u catch my meaning

if i was pro at computers id do the quote box and say




I hope you find the truth about 'housekeepers' from ^



and i would say sumthin like "thx lol"


lol :fluffle:

then it shouldve probably been something more like:

How do you feel about God?

1. I love him
2. I hate him
3. I am indifferent
4. I dont believe in God
5. Other

yeh well it does

my point of the poll was to find out why ppl hate him

i couldnt ask

1- u like god

2- u hate him


cos alot of ppl who said "no" would select 2 cos they dun beleive in him

if u catch my meaning

But you left out the 'I don't believe but I hate' and 'Yes I'm for real'
options...
There's going to lot of people who feel left out :D

yeh well it does

my point of the poll was to find out why ppl hate him

i couldnt ask

1- u like god

2- u hate him


cos alot of ppl who said "no" would select 2 cos they dun beleive in him

if u catch my meaning

Is this directed at me, cus you've completely failed to answer my question?? I'm a bit confused about what you're saying

if i was pro at computers id do the quote box and say




I hope you find the truth about 'housekeepers' from ^



and i would say sumthin like "thx lol"

Yes, and if you were literate i could read your post without pausing to shake my head.

So is it possible to ask someone if they believe in a supreme deity without asking them to prove it? I mean ... come on people ... what do you want me to do ... make out with him to prove I like him?

I often wonder if retarded people flock to the internet or if it's the internet that makes you retarded.

I'm theologically neutral. I don't really have any beliefs, but I do not believe that God definetely does NOT exist either. So basically I'm an agnostic.

the meaning of beleve in, is do you beleive he exists,,


like do u beleive in fairies

I dont belive in god for a number of reasons, Two of my main ones are.

1. the bible teaches you to believe in god primarily because of the consequences, the entire point of Jesus was to avoid these consequences, namely salvation and hell. Frankly This disgusts me, i would say over 80% of Christians believed in god for this reason, heaven not hell namely, in my good their spineless coerced worms, if you going to belive in god do so simply for the reason that he is.

2. An argument for god is that of causality, we are because god made us. Frankly i see this as a flawed perception in human logic, because of empirical evidence we believe 'is' is concurrent with 'because' or 'was', Hume illustrated this beautifully with his brick at window argument, you would believe a brick throw at a window would smash it, just as a brick near a smashed window was the cause, because that is all you have known large solid objects hitting thin fragile objects causes them to smash, Hume stated this was folly, as he said, you would believe all swans where white, until you travel to Australia and observed a black one. (bit philosophical and id be happy to go into it more if anyone would like)

3. My own experience with biblical studies, source criticism has show me that the 'official' word of god, aka the bible/torah, empirically the new testament is, hell its less cohesive than mien kampf, at least Hitler dint contradict him self, and dint have the book come about over a period of 70 years all from different sources. Honestly the gospel is just the psalms re written. I find it hard to believe a book that primary source of justification is its self, hell its caused it own infinite regress, that’s often fudged over with ‘doublethink’ like faith.

(again id love to go into this more)

ok thx lay hippes i understand,, as for the other guy calling me illeterate im sorry im use to fast typing in computer games to geeks who understand

but im sure u feel awhole lot better flaming me

Nah. I can't belive there's' someone there looking at us and letting us die...

Nah. I can't belive there's' someone there looking at us and letting us die...

That bring up another argument of mine, if god is our father, why let us die, a father who let a child die due to negligence would be in prison, what make god another being above this.

nope. prove his existance to me somehow and i'll believe

I always find it bemusing that people need proof in God before they believe.

People believe many things without proof:

I believe my wife loves me.
I believe that Australia exists.
I believe that Dr Who should be brought back.
I believe that I'm losing my hair.
I believe that fortune tellers are con-artists.
I believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But I can't produce any conclusive evidence that any of this is real. I am convinced, and I could try to convince you. But I could never produce unquestionable proof.

I always find it bemusing that people need proof in God before they believe.

People believe many things without proof:

I believe my wife loves me.
I believe that Australia exists.
I believe that Dr Who should be brought back.
I believe that I'm losing my hair.
I believe that fortune tellers are con-artists.
I believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But I can't produce any conclusive evidence that any of this is real. I am convinced, and I could try to convince you. But I could never produce unquestionable proof.


But you could state without much problem that is you infact did expect the cogito argument that you in your own mind existed and was senseing your body, that the land beneath your feet was a continent that by most people who are called geographpers is called australia, and that your mind is experiening the sensation of your feet touching the ground, is in fact australia , therefore it exists.

Now please use this same logic to prove jesus, i have just proved australia

I hate this realativist, you belive whatever you want man arguement, that is why the world is shitty, there is a innate human perfection built into us and we need to find this and then propagate it.

I always find it bemusing that people need proof in God before they believe.

People believe many things without proof:

I believe my wife loves me.
I believe that Australia exists.
I believe that Dr Who should be brought back.
I believe that I'm losing my hair.
I believe that fortune tellers are con-artists.
I believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But I can't produce any conclusive evidence that any of this is real. I am convinced, and I could try to convince you. But I could never produce unquestionable proof.

aturaly Dr Who is comming back (boo hiss) go look at the www.bbc.co.uk/cult (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult) if you don't belive me.

That bring up another argument of mine, if god is our father, why let us die, a father who let a child die due to negligence would be in prison, what make god another being above this.

What makes you think Allah lets us die due to negligence? Sometimes you watch someone die and you're either helpless to do anything about it or you know it is probably for the best that they die.

Perhaps Allah sees us as 70-85 year long coma patients and decides, eventually, just just pull the plug. If you had a kid and you knew that by letting the child die, they'd be better off than they ever could be in this world, how long would you let that child live?

The whole argument is silly, though, because we do not and cannot know the reasoning behind any of this. Allah allows us to live in this world in utter pain and misery and despair, but then watches us die and return to Him. Some could argue that if Allah were truly loving, He wouldn't have put us here in the first place.

Meh ... whatever ... it's a stupid argument. As a father to three kids, I can only analogize what I'd do with my own children. I can't speak for other fathers any more than I can speak for Allah.

Believe or don't believe. It doesn't matter.

I do love the typical way this sort of conversation goes, though:

Person A: Do you believe in God?
Person B: Yes.
Person A: YOU'RE A FUCKIN' RETARD!

or

Person A: Do you believe in God?
Person B: No.
Person A: YOU'RE GOIN' TO HELL, SINNER!

No good ever comes of this.

ok thx lay hippes i understand,, as for the other guy calling me illeterate im sorry im use to fast typing in computer games to geeks who understand

but im sure u feel awhole lot better flaming me
Of course i do. I scored a moral victory over some kid at the opposite side of the world, i live for that.
Look, if you dont invest time and care in what you want to communicate, why should i? Its basic etiquette.

What makes you think Allah lets us die due to negligence? Sometimes you watch someone die and you're either helpless to do anything about it or you know it is probably for the best that they die.

Perhaps Allah sees us as 70-85 year long coma patients and decides, eventually, just just pull the plug. If you had a kid and you knew that by letting the child die, they'd be better off than they ever could be in this world, how long would you let that child live?

The whole argument is silly, though, because we do not and cannot know the reasoning behind any of this. Allah allows us to live in this world in utter pain and misery and despair, but then watches us die and return to Him. Some could argue that if Allah were truly loving, He wouldn't have put us here in the first place.

Meh ... whatever ... it's a stupid argument. As a father to three kids, I can only analogize what I'd do with my own children. I can't speak for other fathers any more than I can speak for Allah.

Believe or don't believe. It doesn't matter.

I do love the typical way this sort of conversation goes, though:

Person A: Do you believe in God?
Person B: Yes.
Person A: YOU'RE A FUCKIN' RETARD!

or

Person A: Do you believe in God?
Person B: No.
Person A: YOU'RE GOIN' TO HELL, SINNER!

No good ever comes of this.


but god is all powerfull, he could cure and make young again, he chooses not to, how would you judge a father who had to means to save his son in such a manner but did not.

but god is all powerfull, he could cure and make young again, he chooses not to, how would you judge a father who had to means to save his son in such a manner but did not.

Death is how Allah saves his children. That's just how it works.

That is, unless, you actually *want* to stay here. Ugh.

I don't believe in the god of the bible.

As for a god in general, I don't know. I would live my life the same if there is or isn't a god, so it's immaterial to me. And if god DOEs exist, and is pissed that I don't have faith, well I don't need a god that petty.

*wonders if that made sense...*

Death is how Allah saves his children. That's just how it works.

That is, unless, you actually *want* to stay here. Ugh.

But surely he also condems them to hell by the same mechanism

I do not, simply because there is no evidence and because the idea of a creator does not appear to fit with my observasions of this world. There doesn't seem to be anything in nature or otherwise that would demand the pressence of a god for it to exist. Equelly, there is evidence that religion stems from an unfounded human desire to feel 'specail', which undermines the possibility that it came from truth even further.
There is observable evidence that supporst the big bang, evolution, ect. If anything ever comes in to the contrary I'll be happy to reconsider (which is more than what most religious people are prepared to do), but it doesn't seem likely.

I believe I am God but I didn't write no Bible

It's ALL about faith!

Faith that the air you breathe is going to be there when you sleep/wake up.
Faith that your favorite TV show will be on at the designated time/channel when the TV Guide says it will.
Faith that when you spell the word beleive, that people will understand what you meant (believe).

The items above are things that you believe because they come about.
Faithfully you find these items to be true as they happen.

My faith is that there is a God and when our Father/His Son appear, I will have believed!

It's funny how we can trust in the TV Guide more than we can trust in the Bible??????????

I dont belive in god for a number of reasons, Two of my main ones are.

There's 3 here!

1. the bible teaches you to believe in god primarily because of the consequences, the entire point of Jesus was to avoid these consequences, namely salvation and hell. Frankly This disgusts me, i would say over 80% of Christians believed in god for this reason, heaven not hell namely, in my good their spineless coerced worms, if you going to belive in god do so simply for the reason that he is.

You've missed the point! And i'm sure that if you read the bible more carefully you would see this. Jesus does not say believe in God because otherwise you will go to hell, but says that you should believe in him because he is good and because he wants us to love him. Jesus goes on to say that those who reject him will go to hell, but he doesn't offer this as a reason for us to believe in him.

2. An argument for god is that of causality, we are because god made us. Frankly i see this as a flawed perception in human logic, because of empirical evidence we believe 'is' is concurrent with 'because' or 'was', Hume illustrated this beautifully with his brick at window argument, you would believe a brick throw at a window would smash it, just as a brick near a smashed window was the cause, because that is all you have known large solid objects hitting thin fragile objects causes them to smash, Hume stated this was folly, as he said, you would believe all swans where white, until you travel to Australia and observed a black one. (bit philosophical and id be happy to go into it more if anyone would like)

Ok, so we can't prove God's existence using inductive logic, but is that evidence against the proposition that God exists. Such a proof requires a leap of faith, which you haven't got so the proof fails. It's not meant to be a proof in the strict sense of the word, but a proof to show that the idea of a creator is consonant with the fact that we exist.

3. My own experience with biblical studies, source criticism has show me that the 'official' word of god, aka the bible/torah, empirically the new testament is, hell its less cohesive than mien kampf, at least Hitler dint contradict him self, and dint have the book come about over a period of 70 years all from different sources. Honestly the gospel is just the psalms re written.

The new testament is cohesive, just perhaps not in the way which you seem to think it should be. The fact that the Gospel writers used various sources does not undermine credibility but gives us invaluable insight into the formation of the Gospels.

As for your comment that the Gospel is just the psalms rewritten, what can i say except that they're not. Sure the evangelists wanted to show that Jesus was the fulfillment of scripture and so alluded to parts of the psalms in order to show this, but there is no justification for your bold and general comment.

I always find it bemusing that people need proof in God before they believe.

People believe many things without proof:

I believe my wife loves me.
I believe that Australia exists.
I believe that Dr Who should be brought back.
I believe that I'm losing my hair.
I believe that fortune tellers are con-artists.
I believe in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But I can't produce any conclusive evidence that any of this is real. I am convinced, and I could try to convince you. But I could never produce unquestionable proof.

You can know how your wife feels because of the way she acts towards you and what she says.
You can know Australia exists because you have seen pictures, know people who have been and have met Australians.
Your view about Doctor Who is an opinion, not a belief.
Losing your hair - either it looks thinner or you find a lot of hair on a comb or brush.
Fortune-tellers you can test by comparing their predictions to probabilities and actual outcomes and for everyone I have tried they have been liars.

Jesus, on the other hand, must be believed in based on a church with an unforgivable history and a book written and compiled by dubious characters.

You can test most of the others (like go to Australia) but god and love are pretty much based on trust. I trust my partner, but I don't trust bishops, vicars, popes, clerics or the authors of a book that is self contradicting and evil.

There's 3 here!



You've missed the point! And i'm sure that if you read the bible more carefully you would see this. Jesus does not say believe in God because otherwise you will go to hell, but says that you should believe in him because he is good and because he wants us to love him. Jesus goes on to say that those who reject him will go to hell, but he doesn't offer this as a reason for us to believe in him.



Ok, so we can't prove God's existence using inductive logic, but is that evidence against the proposition that God exists. Such a proof requires a leap of faith, which you haven't got so the proof fails. It's not meant to be a proof in the strict sense of the word, but a proof to show that the idea of a creator is consonant with the fact that we exist.



The new testament is cohesive, just perhaps not in the way which you seem to think it should be. The fact that the Gospel writers used various sources does not undermine credibility but gives us invaluable insight into the formation of the Gospels.

As for your comment that the Gospel is just the psalms rewritten, what can i say except that they're not. Sure the evangelists wanted to show that Jesus was the fulfillment of scripture and so alluded to parts of the psalms in order to show this, but there is no justification for your bold and general comment.


ahaha yeah i orginaly only had two but got a bit worked,up been reading chick tracks, and he must be stoped hahaha. Prehaps jesus dint teach no god = hell. but all of the churches teach on the basis that beliving in god comes with a reward, and evey action committed should only be done so with conqusences on the theoligcal scale in mine, frankly your no more than a slave if this is true.

But surely he also condems them to hell by the same mechanism

People tend to condemn themselves to Hell without Allah's help.

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D

Christianity is a plague that scours the land the scourge or Earth. Since its misguided conception people actually began killing others over religious beliefs. Prior to them religions existed in harmony and noone actively tried to convert others. Christianty has begun the downfall of society, mankind and all that is good. The only way to stop it is to remove your self imposed blindness and quit your blind faith under the banner of its the only true way to have faith. I have faith. It is not blind. Actually its based on reason and open mindedness, the exact opposite of what christianity stands for yet clams to actually encourage. My faith exists only sofar as things and people have proved faithful. When that happens they nolonger recieve my faith. Tell me something god has done (in your life time directly to you) that has given you faith in his faithfulness toward you. Don't give me that christian dogma about well Jesus died for us or I accepted God into my life and everything got better. I'mn sick of hearing your goddamned conditioned responses to questions involving actually thinking about something

[QUOTE=Jimbob the Jingoistic]
You've missed the point! And i'm sure that if you read the bible more carefully you would see this. Jesus does not say believe in God because otherwise you will go to hell, but says that you should believe in him because he is good and because he wants us to love him. Jesus goes on to say that those who reject him will go to hell, but he doesn't offer this as a reason for us to believe in him.
QUOTE]

Being human and logical creatures.. .well some of us.... Love god because he said to and wants you to. If you don't love god you're going to hell.
Down here on earth thats coersion, which is seven years. So basically you want me to worship a diety that professes goodness while coercing people to believe in him. If he cannot gain followers on merit alone without the threat of a hell or eternal punishment then he does not deserve his followers.

a book that is self contradicting and evil.

Please share with me the self contradicting parts and evil.

Most of the reason people find the Bible contradictory, is because they USE the pick and choose method of study or learning. They don't take the time to read it fully.

If you have done so (read it fully), you would find the questionable contradictions NOT to be so contradictory after all.

Yes I beleive in God and that Jesus our savior died for our sins. The proof you need? well something has to be at the begining of "Human Evalution" Something intelegent had to say, this goes here and that goes there and this bit shall be coincidence. IT just does not make sence.

Yeah sure we could argue all day long and go round in circles by saying "Yeah, but who in the hell made and appointed god in Charge?"

I mean some things, as mortals, we just werent MEANT to understand, and we will just have to learn to except that.

What do you others guys think of this?

P.S. If you decide God doesnt exist because of Coecion then that doesn't make sense. Lets just argue it Cooecian, (and I beleive it isn't) Then that must mean He exists, because you cant coerce if he deos not exist. :Shrugs:

ahaha yeah i orginaly only had two but got a bit worked,up been reading chick tracks, and he must be stoped hahaha. Prehaps jesus dint teach no god = hell. but all of the churches teach on the basis that beliving in god comes with a reward, and evey action committed should only be done so with conqusences on the theoligcal scale in mine, frankly your no more than a slave if this is true.

Yes believing AND LIVING according to God's word comes with a reward. But that doesn't mean that we should act in order to get the reward. Indeed, it means quite the opposite. For living according to God's word means following the example of Jesus, who loved everyone with a selfless love, no matter the cost and suffered and died for our sake, not so that he might go to heaven and get the "reward." I'm sorry but you misunderstand the nature of Christianity.

People tend to condemn themselves to Hell without Allah's help.
I agree, people are pretty good at messing up their own lives without needing a higher being to help them along, usually.
:D

I agree, people are pretty good at messing up their own lives without needing a higher being to help them along, usually.
:D

Ya know, if I hadn't said that, I'd be impressed with the quote. I just read it while divorcing myself from the idea that I said it and, well, I'll have to remember it. Might make a good t-shirt. :D

Being human and logical creatures.. .well some of us.... Love god because he said to and wants you to. If you don't love god you're going to hell.
Down here on earth thats coersion, which is seven years. So basically you want me to worship a diety that professes goodness while coercing people to believe in him. If he cannot gain followers on merit alone without the threat of a hell or eternal punishment then he does not deserve his followers.

Firstly its not coercion. God does not force us to do anything. He leaves it up to the individual to decide freely whether to accept or reject him. We are challenged to respond to his word by the teaching in the Bible, but never coerced. The point of believing in him is not to avoid eternal punishment, but to enter into a free and loving relationship with him, which, as stated in the book of Genesis (in my interpretation of imago Dei at least) is the purpose of humanity.

It's funny how we can trust in the TV Guide more than we can trust in the Bible??????????
I can easily prove the validity of any statement in the guide, the features and channels arent presented in an ambiguous manner, the guide refers to recent events that can be witnessed by a large group of living, reliable people, the tv guide doesnt state how i have to live my life, or threaten me with eternal damnation otherwise...
See my point?

i don't care whether god exists or not

I believe in god, but I don't know if I believe in all of the bible plus I'm jewish so I don't believe Jesus to be my saviour but if he truly is the saviour he should forguve me catholicism on the other hand is the biggest contridictory ever and i assure you almost if not all the people who say they don't are stupid "i dont think for myself" aetheist dumbasses but no necesairily all of them

I believe in god, but I don't know if I believe in all of the bible plus I'm jewish so I don't believe Jesus to be my saviour but if he truly is the saviour he should forguve me catholicism on the other hand is the biggest contridictory ever and i assure you almost if not all the people who say they don't are stupid "i dont think for myself" aetheist dumbasses but no necesairily all of them

eh?

I can easily prove the validity of any statement in the guide, the features and channels arent presented in an ambiguous manner, the guide refers to recent events that can be witnessed by a large group of living, reliable people, the tv guide doesnt state how i have to live my life, or threaten me with eternal damnation otherwise...
See my point?
Yes My Friend,
I do see your point. Thank you. But I think you may have missed mine.
FAITH.

It's not for me or you to prove anything.
It's for me or you to have FAITH or not.
I respect you for your opinion.
If you don't have faith, then why would you be concerned about eternal damnation? I don't feel "threatened" by that thought.

Why do we have the laws of the land that we have?

Do you feel threatened by imprisonment if you break those laws? The laws we live by or not in our country(s) respectively tell us how we have to live our lives (or not).

Isn't it amazing how our original laws are based on the same basic beliefs as the Bible?

So again my friend.

My point was and is FAITH :)

What? eh?

eh?

Run on sentences can be your friend.

Yeah I didn't want to put periods.

I'm an agnostic, but the god concerned was "the god in the bible", which I don't believe in: He's a human fabrication.

Also - this is not intended as an ad hominem - has anyone noticed that the fundamentalists on this forum have atrocious spelling compared to the atheists? There's really a trend there. I do not understand why.

I'd just like to say I'm not in any way a fundementalist. Just beacause I have bad grammer doesn't mean I'm a fundamentalist. Just had to say that. Oh yeah and I agree usually fundamentalists are the brightest people in the world.

I'm an agnostic, but the god concerned was "the god in the bible", which I don't believe in: He's a human fabrication.

Also - this is not intended as an ad hominem - has anyone noticed that the fundamentalists on this forum have atrocious spelling compared to the atheists? There's really a trend there. I do not understand why.

I won't take offense, but I will say that I am a fundamentalist.
Without the fundamentals, you have nothing.

So, how's my spelling?

My original point was that I myself believe in God to an extent but not in the bible, and that I hate stupid people who are only atheists to be different. Like Pure Metal. No offence.

Don't forget grammer as well.

Don't forget grammer as well.

On the lighter side ;)

Let's leave my grammer out of this!
She's done died and gone to Heaven! ;)

As long as there are people on this earth, there will be arguments about a higher power (or lack thereof).

I, personally, am a full-fledged Christian, Protestant, but what I believe is that it's your CHOICE to believe or not believe what you want. I can't, and i'm not going to force it upon you. I'd be more than happy to give details of what exactly I believe for the sake of discussion or what-have-you, but I'll save that for later, seeing as how this topic is really whether I believe or not, and whether I actually love God or not.

The answer is "Yes," on both counts.

I won't take offense, but I will say that I am a fundamentalist.
Without the fundamentals, you have nothing.

So, how's my spelling?

Meh, sorry. I meant to put 'on average' in there, and 'extremist' probably wouldn't have hurt either.

Gyrotopia, ponder this:

It is impossible to have good grammer without having bad spelling.

Meh, sorry. I meant to put 'on average' in there, and 'extremist' probably wouldn't have hurt either.

Gyrotopia, ponder this:

It is impossible to have good grammer without having bad spelling.


Well done my German friend. No apology necessary!

I have no hatred, there's plenty of that in the world already.
I've been wounded at the heart, but my FAITH IS what has let me survive.
If I could share HIS love with all I would.

Blessings!

Christianity is a plague that scours the land the scourge or Earth. Since its misguided conception people actually began killing others over religious beliefs. Prior to them religions existed in harmony and noone actively tried to convert others. Christianty has begun the downfall of society, mankind and all that is good. The only way to stop it is to remove your self imposed blindness and quit your blind faith under the banner of its the only true way to have faith. I have faith. It is not blind. Actually its based on reason and open mindedness, the exact opposite of what christianity stands for yet clams to actually encourage. My faith exists only sofar as things and people have proved faithful. When that happens they nolonger recieve my faith. Tell me something god has done (in your life time directly to you) that has given you faith in his faithfulness toward you. Don't give me that christian dogma about well Jesus died for us or I accepted God into my life and everything got better. I'mn sick of hearing your goddamned conditioned responses to questions involving actually thinking about something

I, personally, fully believe in Christ. You want more than a knee-jerk response? Here it is:

What the bible says teaches me more about Him, but what my experiences say tells me that he is real. When I read a poem explaining the beauty of a sunrise, and read a science book explaining the intricacies of the interactions between light and the atmosphere, I learn more of what a sunrise is. It is only when I experience fully the most amazing sunrise on a perfect morning through just the right setting of clouds to reflect its beauty in the sky that I truly understand what a sunrise is. Then, and only then, can I truly believe in my heart that a sunrise is beautiful. If you lived in a cave your whole life, and never looked out on the sky, you would never even be able to conceptualize a sunrise. I cannot tell you that a sunrise is beautiful, I can only point you to the poem, give you a copy of the science book, and hope you take the chance to get out one morning, and experience it for yourself.

Belief in God is like this. The scriptures tell me of him, in historical facts, parables, psalms, and proverbs, but knowing of Him is not knowing Him.

You ask for something that God has specifically done in my life? How's this for you:

For 3 years, I had tremendous pain in my lower back, and a ringing in my right ear from multiple ear infections. This is fact.
After spending years learning of God, and of Christ, but not fully believing he existed (I was still unsure of which side of the fence was Truth, which to science, truth is tantamount.) I found myself praying, out loud, "God, if you exist, please heal this pain. I cannot bear hurting like this."

This was a simple scientific experiment:

Research: Scripture reading, first hand accounts of experience, teaching from experts on Scripture

Problem: How can I know if God exists?

Hypothesis: If praying to God heals me, then God must exist.
This hypothesis is based on the following facts:
- I have met many people who have personally been healed of Cancer, fallen arches, headaches, backaches, etc.
- The scriptures, fully verifiable by the people in that day (they would not have lasted this long as a "factual account" if they had not, indeed, been factual. Check out "Case for Christ" if you want better evidence), who's writers were killed because they were Christians, spoke of a blind man who was prayed for in the name of Christ and God, and had his sight returned. The opposition to this faith even admitted that he was once blind, but could now see, and questioned him quite thoroughly about it to verify the facts.
- Those with faith tend to heal from disease and surgery faster. See the following information:
In the most widely publicized studies of the effect of intercessory prayer, cardiologist Randolph Byrd studied 393 patients admitted to the coronary-care unit at San Francisco General Hospital. Some were prayed for by home-prayer groups, others were not. All the men and women got medical care. In this randomized, double-blind study, neither the doctors and nurses nor the patients knew who would be the object of prayer.

The results were dramatic and surprised many scientists.The men and women whose medical care was supplemented with prayer needed fewer drugs and spent less time on ventilators. They also fared better overall than their counterparts who received medical care but nothing more. The prayed-for patients were:
- Significantly less likely to require antibiotics (3 patients versus 16)
- Significantly less likely to develop pulmonary edema-a condition in which the lungs fill with fluid because the heart cannot pump properly (6 versus 18).
- Significantly less likely to require insertion of a tube into the throat to assist breathing (0 versus 12).
- Less likely to die (but this difference was not statistically significant).

Even more outrageous experiments in distance healing involve nonhuman subjects. In a survey of 131 controlled experiments on spiritual healing, it was found that prayed-for rye grass grew taller; prayed-for yeast resisted the toxic effects of cyanide; prayed-for test-tube bacteria grew faster. "I adore these experiments," says Larry Dossey, M.D., perhaps the world's most vocal expert on prayer and medicine. "Because they don't involve humans, you can run them with fanatical precision and you can run them hundreds of times. It's the best evidence of all that prayer can change the world. And it operates as strongly on the other side of the Earth as it does at the bedside."



Control: Sadly, since there is no exact clone of me, I cannot have a scientifically perfect control for this study, but I dare say those who do not pray about their pains can be a decent control. They, on the large majority get better much more slowly, if at all (see above medical study information).

Dependent Variable: My pain in my back, and my ringing pain in my ear.

Independent Variable: My belief in God.

Project Conclusion: Upon prayer to God, upon believing in said prayer, upon receiving healing in both cases, my conclusion is this: My hypothesis is correct. God can heal, therefore God exists.

Now that I have, through scientific experiment, proven that God exists, it is up to you to, should you truly value the scientific method, to find something that you need that would prove to you that God exists. Remember, carefully study the text, listen openly to other's experiences, take the time to speak with experts on the subject (try a Baptist Pastor, or an Assemblies of God minister, they focus on both the scripture knoweledge, and the experience), then take the final step. Test my hypothesis. Send me a telegram if it did not work (remember that for any scientific study, much research and understanding is neccessary to even set up the testing environment... do this with sincerity like a scientist, or do not do it at all, but please don't throw out a flippant "God, do this now! Gimme, Gimme!", or He will react like any good parent, and spank you for being childish, and explain why you were wrong, whether you listen to Him or not, and then try to hug you afterwards to show His love, which you probably wouldn't receive, since you did not sincerely give this test a try)

I challenge all of you to spend a month truly testing this hypothesis. At the end of that month, telegram me, and at receipt of the first telegram showing that someone actually tested this, I will open up a thread called "Proof of God via Scientific Method" and we will see the results of all, positive, and negative, and then we will be truly informed, and not just throwing out random thoughts or deep seated feelings.

I hope this brings at least one of you to a moment where you take a break from cinicism, and do something out of your mold for a moment. I personally am not worried about your final personal beliefs at the end of this test, I only want your choice of eternity to be made as an informed decision, so as to not waste a perfectly good life believing something you barely understand.

Thanks for reading to the bottom of this, I know it was long.

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D

I hope one day you realise that Jesus is a fictional character, in a book based on other people's mythologies. :)

Project Conclusion: Upon prayer to God, upon believing in said prayer, upon receiving healing in both cases, my conclusion is this: My hypothesis is correct. God can heal, therefore God exists.

Now that I have, through scientific experiment, proven that God exists, it is up to you to, should you truly value the scientific method, to find something that you need that would prove to you that God exists.

All you have proved is that your pain healed at the same time as your prayer.

You haven't proved that the two were AT ALL connected, so it is very unscientific to assert it.

Furthermore - even if the prayer and healing WERE proven to be related, that STILL doesn't prove that god was the cause.

The LOGICAL conclusion would be that PRAYER has a medicinal effect, like other forms of positive thinking, or mantra meditations.

Sorry - but this is pseudo-science, dressed up as science.

Now lets think it this way...
If god did exist, he would be perfect. Right?
He'd be so perfect that only a perfect being (read god) could think about his deepest essence. Hell, people've been thinking about this stuff for ages now.
That way there should be lots of people in the world who should be gods/goddesses...
Is the current situation like that? No, it is not.

...so there is no god! You understand or do I have to read it again??

I, personally, fully believe in Christ. You want more than a knee-jerk response? Here it is:

What the bible says teaches me more about Him, but what my experiences say tells me that he is real. When I read a poem explaining the beauty of a sunrise, and read a science book explaining the intricacies of the interactions between light and the atmosphere, I learn more of what a sunrise is. It is only when I experience fully the most amazing sunrise on a perfect morning through just the right setting of clouds to reflect its beauty in the sky that I truly understand what a sunrise is. Then, and only then, can I truly believe in my heart that a sunrise is beautiful. If you lived in a cave your whole life, and never looked out on the sky, you would never even be able to conceptualize a sunrise. I cannot tell you that a sunrise is beautiful, I can only point you to the poem, give you a copy of the science book, and hope you take the chance to get out one morning, and experience it for yourself.

Belief in God is like this. The scriptures tell me of him, in historical facts, parables, psalms, and proverbs, but knowing of Him is not knowing Him.

You ask for something that God has specifically done in my life? How's this for you:

For 3 years, I had tremendous pain in my lower back, and a ringing in my right ear from multiple ear infections. This is fact.
After spending years learning of God, and of Christ, but not fully believing he existed (I was still unsure of which side of the fence was Truth, which to science, truth is tantamount.) I found myself praying, out loud, "God, if you exist, please heal this pain. I cannot bear hurting like this."

This was a simple scientific experiment:

Research: Scripture reading, first hand accounts of experience, teaching from experts on Scripture

Problem: How can I know if God exists?

Hypothesis: If praying to God heals me, then God must exist.
This hypothesis is based on the following facts:


Control: Sadly, since there is no exact clone of me, I cannot have a scientifically perfect control for this study, but I dare say those who do not pray about their pains can be a decent control. They, on the large majority get better much more slowly, if at all (see above medical study information).

Dependent Variable: My pain in my back, and my ringing pain in my ear.

Independent Variable: My belief in God.

Project Conclusion: Upon prayer to God, upon believing in said prayer, upon receiving healing in both cases, my conclusion is this: My hypothesis is correct. God can heal, therefore God exists.

Now that I have, through scientific experiment, proven that God exists, it is up to you to, should you truly value the scientific method, to find something that you need that would prove to you that God exists. Remember, carefully study the text, listen openly to other's experiences, take the time to speak with experts on the subject (try a Baptist Pastor, or an Assemblies of God minister, they focus on both the scripture knoweledge, and the experience), then take the final step. Test my hypothesis. Send me a telegram if it did not work (remember that for any scientific study, much research and understanding is neccessary to even set up the testing environment... do this with sincerity like a scientist, or do not do it at all, but please don't throw out a flippant "God, do this now! Gimme, Gimme!", or He will react like any good parent, and spank you for being childish, and explain why you were wrong, whether you listen to Him or not, and then try to hug you afterwards to show His love, which you probably wouldn't receive, since you did not sincerely give this test a try)

I challenge all of you to spend a month truly testing this hypothesis. At the end of that month, telegram me, and at receipt of the first telegram showing that someone actually tested this, I will open up a thread called "Proof of God via Scientific Method" and we will see the results of all, positive, and negative, and then we will be truly informed, and not just throwing out random thoughts or deep seated feelings.

I hope this brings at least one of you to a moment where you take a break from cinicism, and do something out of your mold for a moment. I personally am not worried about your final personal beliefs at the end of this test, I only want your choice of eternity to be made as an informed decision, so as to not waste a perfectly good life believing something you barely understand.

Thanks for reading to the bottom of this, I know it was long.


Sorry, you can't do that. You can't prove God using a scientific method of proof. The whole point about God is that He is not like anything else. If you use some science, you must use it all. In other words, you must find an explanation of how God can exist under the laws of physics. Of course you can't, and that isn't your fault, but God is supposed to be dettached from science.
How about this hypothetical experiment? I think there may be giant invisible monsters. To test this theory, I will go into the Bermuda Triangle. If I never come out, it proves that the giant invisible monsters killed me. This is based upon the fact that people have disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle, and that one or two people I know say that they were eaten by giant invisible monsters.
Compare that to your scientific investigation, and you will find it is very similar. They both rely on facts- people have been cured of cancer, and people have disappeared in the Bemuda Triangle. The sciptures saying that faith cures people of diseases is no different to some guy I know saying giant invisible monsters kill people who go in the Bemuda Triangle. The reason that my hypothesis would never stand up is that there is no room in science for giant invisible monsters, and there is no room in science for God either. I am not saying that disproves God. I am just saying don't try and prove God using something that He is meant to be above and seperate from.

(Oh BTW, I don't intend to actually carry out my experiment, just in case anyone was wondering. I'm too scared of the giant invisible monsters)

Do you beleive in God
(the god written of in the bible)
Not the One written of in the Bible, no.

Although it is entirely possible the original intent of the writers of the Bible was to portray god, the modern religion (for the most part) has an entirely different slant on that being. I can make out god in the words here and there, but that's just me knowing what to look for.

...That made no sense, but okay.

I do have a question.

How come many of you so readily disregard the notion that there is no God, yet at the same time accept the theory of evolutionism and the Big Bang theory?

I'm not trying to tell you what to believe and what not to believe, but just hear me out...

You readily accept the notion that man is here because of circumstantial accident. The fact that a single cell, over who-knows how many years, has formed man. That's a tough pill to swallow in and of itself, really; just look at the human nervous system. Not even that, look at the eye and how it works. That, I believe, is too complicated to just "happened to have occured."

You complain about no evidence for God. I complain about no evidence for evolution. You can match all you want, but face it: It's a theory. Charles Darwin. One man. One theory. Chuck wasn't around for the beginning, so there's no way he would know. Creationism can be said the same way, but here is where our beliefs differ in this aspect: What is written in the book of Genesis by Moses was told to him by the One that made us. It wasn't his own theory, it wasn't his own hypothesis. It was given to him by the One who made everything.

You complain about us and our "faith". I complain about you and your faith in evolutionism. You believe it's real, but there's no evidence. Sure, there's a lot of things that can happen, and a lot of strings, but there's nothing that ties to the beginning. For two hundred years, scientists have been looking for the "missing link." Why? Because it's missing. But you have faith that it's there.

According to principles of matter, you can't have matter without something else to create it, yes? Big bang theory: two gasses collide, big bang, we have planets. Yes, i know, it's more complicated, but that's the jist of it. Where did those two gasses come from? If you're logically thinking about it, they can't just form. They had to come from something. Somewhere. Somewhen. Perhaps the big bang did happen, and that could have been God's way of making the planets, I don't know. But the fact of the matter is, there is matter. And matter doesn't just form. Justficiation: Supreme being with the ability to make matter.

Now from universes to atoms. How do atoms work? Protons and neutrons are held together in a nucleus of an atom by the strong force. The strong force gets it name by being the strongest attractive force. It is 137 times more powerful than electromagnetic, which by the way cannot hold neutrons to protons because neutrons are not charged. It is 100,000 times more powerful than the weak force and 6,000 billion billion billion billion (6 followed by 39 zeroes) times more powerful than gravity which by the way has almost no effect at atomic scales.

According to the standard model of particle physics, the fundamental forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity) are predicted to occur as a result of an exchange between particles via "force carrying particles". Also, neutrons and protons are made up of tinier particles called quarks. And it is the quarks that exchange force carrying particles between each other to give rise to the strong force. The force carrying particles are called gluons.

It should be mentioned that the strong force only operates at EXTREMELY small distances. These distances are on the order of a 1000th millionth millionth of a meter (10 to the power of -15). If you think about a micrometer (one hundredth the size of a human hair), it is a billion times smaller than that.

The strong force also attracts protons to protons or neutrons to neutrons. In the case of protons to protons, the strong force loses strength after the distance mentioned above and succumbs to the electromagnetic force which pushes the protons apart. In this case the force carrier of electromagnetics is the photon (constituent of light).

So in the nucleus there is a delicate balance of the strong force pulling the atoms in to each other and the electromagnetic force which pushes protons apart. It is only when they are so close together does the attractive strong force overpower the electrostatic.

So what creates this force? We know it's there, we can prove that it's there, but what creates it? Are you suggesting to me that circumstantial accidents created something so very complex? I find that, my friend, a very hard pill to swallow.

Thank you for reading this extremely long post.

Now lets think it this way...
If god did exist, he would be perfect. Right?
He'd be so perfect that only a perfect being (read god) could think about his deepest essence. Hell, people've been thinking about this stuff for ages now.
That way there should be lots of people in the world who should be gods/goddesses...
Is the current situation like that? No, it is not.
Acutally, you're not too far off the mark. :)

I agree that God is perfect and that we as simple humans can not aspire to be anywhere near his... greatness... (The BIBLE says that even when God spoke to Moses, he had to shield his eyes) Anyways, the BIBLE says that there was a gap between man and God and that the only way the gap could be bridged was by an ultimate sacrifice... ie Jesus Christ.

But hey... i'm interested in others opinions. It kills me when people are so subjective that they can't listen to what others believe. You have to know how other religions work to better understand your own.

Now lets think it this way...
If god did exist, he would be perfect. Right?
He'd be so perfect that only a perfect being (read god) could think about his deepest essence. Hell, people've been thinking about this stuff for ages now.
That way there should be lots of people in the world who should be gods/goddesses...
Is the current situation like that? No, it is not.

...so there is no god! You understand or do I have to read it again??

Hmmm... no this isn't really very good i'm afraid. If God did exist, then he would be beyond our comprehension, so we would have no way of knowing whether he was perfect or not. moreover, if he was perfect we would have no way of knowing what this perfection entails, since we have no experience of perfection. Read the Descartes thread for more on this.

Once again, a faithless generation demands a sign :( :confused:

Now lets think it this way...
If god did exist, he would be perfect. Right?
He'd be so perfect that only a perfect being (read god) could think about his deepest essence. Hell, people've been thinking about this stuff for ages now.
That way there should be lots of people in the world who should be gods/goddesses...
Is the current situation like that? No, it is not.

...so there is no god! You understand or do I have to read it again??

Then how do we envision a perfect being, being imperfect ourselves? This would require divine will to have placed it there, would it not?

Once again, a faithless generation demands a sign :( :confused:

I'm not faithless... =p I have lots of faith in God. You can't be a Christian and NOT have faith... because without faith you are lost.

Ever notice how pictures of jesus make him look like a hobo......i cant believe in a religon where a man give alchol to children and is homeless....plus his has a mom that lies about cheating on her husband with "god"

Once again, a faithless generation demands a sign :( :confused:
eh he seemed to be in the sign making busness a few thousand years ago ;) but he stoped for some reason

He didn't stop... We just don't look for them anymore.

eh he seemed to be in the sign making busness a few thousand years ago ;) but he stoped for some reason

Just don't forget what sign he gave that generation. The one this generation will get is that of Elijah and is even a little more dramatic, unfortunately it will come to late for many who refuse to believe Moses and the prophets.

I wish there was some way to wake the world up to the impending reality, but I suppose it will be as it was in the days of Noah. God always provides a way, but you have to get on the boat of your own free will.

Yea... I agree. It is all about free will and free choice. You can't force others to believe what you do.

Just don't forget what sign he gave that generation. The one this generation will get is that of Elijah and is even a little more dramatic, unfortunately it will come to late for many who refuse to believe Moses and the prophets.

I wish there was some way to wake the world up to the impending reality, but I suppose it will be as it was in the days of Noah. God always provides a way, but you have to get on the boat of your own free will.
So you believe elijah's prophicies will come true in this generation?

(the god written of in the bible)

No.

Hmmm... no this isn't really very good i'm afraid. If God did exist, then he would be beyond our comprehension, so we would have no way of knowing whether he was perfect or not. moreover, if he was perfect we would have no way of knowing what this perfection entails, since we have no experience of perfection. Read the Descartes thread for more on this.
I'm reading Descartes on my philosophy-course. I picked the idea from the book.

Then how do we envision a perfect being, being imperfect ourselves? This would require divine will to have placed it there, would it not?
That's the point! We really can't even imagine a totally perfect being.
Just think of it: to be perfect, the god also has to be imperfect. If he was simply perfect, he wouldn't be able to be imperfect, he'd lack something-> he'd be imperfect and that's why he can't be perfect.
What do you god-believers answer in this?

(I can carry on for ages.)

Just think of it: to be perfect, the god also has to be imperfect. If he was simply perfect, he wouldn't be able to be imperfect, he'd lack something-> he'd be imperfect and that's why he can't be perfect.
What do you god-believers answer in this?



Well obviously it depends on what you mean by perfection... i don't think that our ordinary conception of being perfect means having the capacity to be imperfect myself. If God was perfect, then he would be unable to do or be anything that was inconsistent with his perfect nature, such as being evil or being imperfect. You may call this a limited God, but he is only limited in the sense that he cannot be other than ultimate perfection, which is surely an attractive concept.

Well obviously it depends on what you mean by perfection... i don't think that our ordinary conception of being perfect means having the capacity to be imperfect myself. If God was perfect, then he would be unable to do or be anything that was inconsistent with his perfect nature, such as being evil or being imperfect. You may call this a limited God, but he is only limited in the sense that he cannot be other than ultimate perfection, which is surely an attractive concept.
While attractive does violate the omnipotent rules (well as long as you define evil in a static way rather then evlil being the oposite of what god does ... but that is a wierd way to go with things)

...That made no sense, but okay.

I do have a question.

How come many of you so readily disregard the notion that there is no God, yet at the same time accept the theory of evolutionism and the Big Bang theory?

I'm not trying to tell you what to believe and what not to believe, but just hear me out...

You readily accept the notion that man is here because of circumstantial accident. The fact that a single cell, over who-knows how many years, has formed man. That's a tough pill to swallow in and of itself, really; just look at the human nervous system. Not even that, look at the eye and how it works. That, I believe, is too complicated to just "happened to have occured."

You complain about no evidence for God. I complain about no evidence for evolution. You can match all you want, but face it: It's a theory. Charles Darwin. One man. One theory. Chuck wasn't around for the beginning, so there's no way he would know. Creationism can be said the same way, but here is where our beliefs differ in this aspect: What is written in the book of Genesis by Moses was told to him by the One that made us. It wasn't his own theory, it wasn't his own hypothesis. It was given to him by the One who made everything.

You complain about us and our "faith". I complain about you and your faith in evolutionism. You believe it's real, but there's no evidence. Sure, there's a lot of things that can happen, and a lot of strings, but there's nothing that ties to the beginning. For two hundred years, scientists have been looking for the "missing link." Why? Because it's missing. But you have faith that it's there.

According to principles of matter, you can't have matter without something else to create it, yes? Big bang theory: two gasses collide, big bang, we have planets. Yes, i know, it's more complicated, but that's the jist of it. Where did those two gasses come from? If you're logically thinking about it, they can't just form. They had to come from something. Somewhere. Somewhen. Perhaps the big bang did happen, and that could have been God's way of making the planets, I don't know. But the fact of the matter is, there is matter. And matter doesn't just form. Justficiation: Supreme being with the ability to make matter.

Now from universes to atoms. How do atoms work? Protons and neutrons are held together in a nucleus of an atom by the strong force. The strong force gets it name by being the strongest attractive force. It is 137 times more powerful than electromagnetic, which by the way cannot hold neutrons to protons because neutrons are not charged. It is 100,000 times more powerful than the weak force and 6,000 billion billion billion billion (6 followed by 39 zeroes) times more powerful than gravity which by the way has almost no effect at atomic scales.

According to the standard model of particle physics, the fundamental forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic and gravity) are predicted to occur as a result of an exchange between particles via "force carrying particles". Also, neutrons and protons are made up of tinier particles called quarks. And it is the quarks that exchange force carrying particles between each other to give rise to the strong force. The force carrying particles are called gluons.

It should be mentioned that the strong force only operates at EXTREMELY small distances. These distances are on the order of a 1000th millionth millionth of a meter (10 to the power of -15). If you think about a micrometer (one hundredth the size of a human hair), it is a billion times smaller than that.

The strong force also attracts protons to protons or neutrons to neutrons. In the case of protons to protons, the strong force loses strength after the distance mentioned above and succumbs to the electromagnetic force which pushes the protons apart. In this case the force carrier of electromagnetics is the photon (constituent of light).

So in the nucleus there is a delicate balance of the strong force pulling the atoms in to each other and the electromagnetic force which pushes protons apart. It is only when they are so close together does the attractive strong force overpower the electrostatic.

So what creates this force? We know it's there, we can prove that it's there, but what creates it? Are you suggesting to me that circumstantial accidents created something so very complex? I find that, my friend, a very hard pill to swallow.

Thank you for reading this extremely long post.

Anthropic Principle. If the amazingly small circumstantial accident hadn't happened we wouldn't be here arguing about it, so you cannot argue that there must be a cause behind it. Say that tomorrow an accident that had to happen for us to continue surviving didn't, then we would never know and would think that everything that needed to happen for us to survive did. It links in with multiverse theories where everything happens somewhere. It might as well happen here.

...That made no sense, but okay.

I do have a question.

How come many of you so readily disregard the notion that there is no God, yet at the same time accept the theory of evolutionism and the Big Bang theory?


I don't 'believe' in the Big Bang, either... I don't even accept it as the best model of it's kind.

Regarding Evolution - there is a wealth of evidence. Peppered Moths are convincing, even in isolation - but add to thousands of other daily evidences, and the wealth of archeological material... it IS a pretty compelling theory.

But YOU ARE right... it IS just a theory.

At least there are mathematical 'proofs' to support the Big Bang (or something similar).

And there are genetic and archeological 'proofs' to support Evolution.

What 'proof' is there for 'god'? A book written 2000 years ago and more, by people considered a radical and dangerous cult?

Wow this has slipped past me while I’ve been away and I’ve seen a lot more posts about, how can this just all be coincidence, some have been very intelligent conveying way more of a understanding of nuclear physics than i a poor philosophy student possess, but i feel i must state a little argument i have relating to probability.

The probability that everything that exists, exists discounting theories about quantum physics and the pain in the ass that is global scepticism. It is 1, because simply it is existing. Now let us take the age and final age of the universe as infinite, and let us take the universe to be an open one, much like the theories of prof Hawkins, of multi verses and all that.

Now, still following the probability of all this existing is 1, and the probability that it was going to exist is 1, and the probability that it may cease to exist is also 1.
Now in a open universe, with an infinite amount of time these things or events will occur an infinite amount of times, infinite earths, infinite nation states general forums. This that the universe , nay multiverse is an open one and that time is also infinite are the only logical and rational conclusion we can make considering our poor understanding to date.
The idea that this at one point did not exist and thus was created, is a symptom of poor empirical evidence on our part, and the only thing we can be sure of is it dose exist.

So where dose god come into it, and open multi verse with an set amount of matter and energy in it will collect due to gravity and explode and form single universi, this matter will then arrange it in biological molecules that will propagate them selves and change in the process x amount of times until it eventual hits the combination that collates it into bacterial who do the same thing until mutli cellular.... so on and so on until man.

By simply applying the principles of evolution on a cosmic scale and then adding to the only rational certainties we can come to then the laws of probability, there is no need for god as probability dose the job for us.

I call it omniversal evolution

That ladies and gentlemen is why i don’t believe god exists and he is merely a social-political construct.

Please criticise it needs some work.

Once again, a faithless generation demands a sign :( :confused:

Jesus seemed quite okay with 'doubting'.

nope. prove his existance to me somehow and i'll believe
You will see his existance in the last 7 years of this world :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper:

The probability that everything that exists, exists discounting theories about quantum physics and the pain in the ass that is global scepticism. It is 1, because simply it is existing. Now let us take the age and final age of the universe as infinite, and let us take the universe to be an open one, much like the theories of prof Hawkins, of multi verses and all that.

Now, still following the probability of all this existing is 1, and the probability that it was going to exist is 1, and the probability that it may cease to exist is also 1.


Even without quantum physics, the probablity that everything exists is not 1. The probability that something exists is 1. I suppose it depends how you define exist. If you argue that things can exist as concepts and that concepts still exist then it works, but there is no way to tell the difference between something that really exists and something that your mind has made up. We assume that everything we see is real, but we have no guarantee. Of course, if any of the things we experience and think are real are not real, then it suggests some form of conscious mind manipulating us, because they would have to make sure that our experiences are consistant. So their might just about be room for a malicious god, but not the Christian one.

Even without quantum physics, the probablity that everything exists is not 1. The probability that something exists is 1. I suppose it depends how you define exist. If you argue that things can exist as concepts and that concepts still exist then it works, but there is no way to tell the difference between something that really exists and something that your mind has made up. We assume that everything we see is real, but we have no guarantee. Of course, if any of the things we experience and think are real are not real, then it suggests some form of conscious mind manipulating us, because they would have to make sure that our experiences are consistant. So their might just about be room for a malicious god, but not the Christian one.

ARRRG I said discounting global sceptism, that is being naviely realist, and your sujjesting that god is beveolent, which occoring to the old testament he clearly is not.

ARRRG I said discounting global sceptism, that is being naviely realist.

Sorry, but it's not naive, you can't base an entire argument around the probability of everything existing as 1, because a probablity of 1 doesn't exist in practise. Your theory only works theoretically.

Sorry, but it's not naive, you can't base an entire argument around the probability of everything existing as 1, because a probablity of 1 doesn't exist in practise. Your theory only works theoretically.

No its called naive realism thats not an insult, its where you take the universe at face value, its the opsite of total sceptism, which is the socratic descatean road your going down.

Well obviously it depends on what you mean by perfection... i don't think that our ordinary conception of being perfect means having the capacity to be imperfect myself. If God was perfect, then he would be unable to do or be anything that was inconsistent with his perfect nature, such as being evil or being imperfect. You may call this a limited God, but he is only limited in the sense that he cannot be other than ultimate perfection, which is surely an attractive concept.
How do you know that "good" belongs to the nature of a perfect being. A being may be perfect if it's evil because those that are evil make it easily in the world (also among animals although the concept may differ when moving to the area of stupid beings). The good ones have to push hard to survive in the world.
If there is a God like you say, then:
A) He'd have a mental sickness of some sort (from a human's point of view)
B) He'd be evil
C) He'd have a really sick and twisted sense of humor (just look at the news! Would you do that to your own children?)

shame so many people think He doesn't.......probably New Age thinkers....

No its called naive realism thats not an insult, its where you take the universe at face value, its the opsite of total sceptism, which is the socratic descatean road your going down.

I'm not totally sceptical, I do take the universe at face value, except where it's unavoidable not to, such as when looking at the probablity of things existing.

shame so many people think He doesn't.......probably New Age thinkers....

You would sum up all of atheism into 'New Age Thinkers'? You need to learn a bit more about atheism then.

I don't believe there is a god. If there is, apparently it's a jerk.

I believe in the Christian God, but I think even if I didn't believe in the Christian God I'd believe in some sort of higher deity.

I don't believe there is a god. If there is, apparently it's a jerk.
that or just distant watchmaker sort

I don't believe there is a god. If there is, apparently it's a jerk.

Not necessarily. I believe God has the ability to control everything, he just chooses not to for the most part. Think about it this way, if there was no tragedy at all, would we really know what happiness was? Happiness is relative, and if you take away things to compare it to, then there really is no happiness. I think God lets tragedies happen to show us that life is special. Of course, I'm in no way stating that tragedies are good.

Not necessarily. I believe God has the ability to control everything, he just chooses not to for the most part. Think about it this way, if there was no tragedy at all, would we really know what happiness was? Happiness is relative, and if you take away things to compare it to, then there really is no happiness. I think God lets tragedies happen to show us that life is special. Of course, I'm in no way stating that tragedies are good.
But that really digs deep into him not being all loving and all powerfull


If he was truly all powerfull should he not be able to find a better way (hell change reality and CREATE another way) for people to relize joy without killing off mass amounts of them

Or is he just sadistic to the point where he setup a system where people have to die for happyness

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D
yes, and this isn't insulting at all.

But that really digs deep into him not being all loving and all powerfull


If he was truly all powerfull should he not be able to find a better way (hell change reality and CREATE another way) for people to relize joy without killing off mass amounts of them

Or is he just sadistic to the point where he setup a system where people have to die for happyness

No, it digs into him having a purpose for everything. And there is a better way. Heaven. This life is just a test to get into the next one. God sees the good things, and bad things that people do. I really don't think that God would let a good person who did not believe in him, into hell. Most of the tragedies can NOT be attributed to a deity, but to us as humans. We are mere mortals, and we are prone to make mistakes, and God knows this. But if you're a good person, who lives a good, true life, you'll get into heaven. ;)

So you believe elijah's prophicies will come true in this generation?

We don't even know most of Elijah's prophecies, but the sign is that of a cloud about the size of a man's hand (which will have a second fulfillment) that will grow until 'every eye shall see Him' 'coming in the glory of His Father'.

Jesus seemed quite okay with 'doubting'. Actually, He pointed it out as a weakness over and over. However, He did make some provision for those with doubts, most noteably Jairus and Thomas. Of course doubting doesn't = condemnation, but it can lead in that direction. I admit it is a very difficult thing to live without doubt. I think those of us who do have faith still have to grow in that faith as doubt is a very hard thing to eradicate completely. Fortunately God is a patient and merciful God that meets us where we are not waiting for us to get good enough to come to Him. If He did, we'd all be without hope.

But that really digs deep into him not being all loving and all powerfull


If he was truly all powerfull should he not be able to find a better way (hell change reality and CREATE another way) for people to relize joy without killing off mass amounts of them

Or is he just sadistic to the point where he setup a system where people have to die for happyness

The problem is, the only way for God to allow us free will was to not intervene when we brought upon ourselves and this planet the degenerating effects of sin. The only way the universe can see the insidiousness of sin is to let it take its natural course and make it plain to all that only in living according to God's law of Love for Him and each other can the universe experience the perfection He created it to live in.

people say that if you cant prove or disprove the existance of god, thats fair enough.

If I believe in green goblins who are all around us but you cant see them or feel them or hear them you'd think I was off my rocker eh? well you cant prove they dont exist, the same is true with god just because the idea has been passed down for hundreds of years doesnt make it a good one its still a pile of wank the same as when it started

people say that if you cant prove or disprove the existance of god, thats fair enough.

If I believe in green goblins who are all around us but you cant see them or feel them or hear them you'd think I was off my rocker eh? well you cant prove they dont exist, the same is true with god just because the idea has been passed down for hundreds of years doesnt make it a good one its still a pile of wank the same as when it started

Actually there probably are green goblins all around you that you can't see, but you might be able to hear them. They're called demons. They often cross over from the supernatural to the perceived.

Course, so does God, but most people would rather open themselves up to evil then to good so they're more likely to see demons.

The problem is, the only way for God to allow us free will was to not intervene when we brought upon ourselves and this planet the degenerating effects of sin.
wow, God's pretty pitiful, if He can't give us free will without also making us sinful creatures. give me phenomenal cosmic powers for the afternoon and i could create a race of intelligent, conscious creatures with free will and no sin.

wow, God's pretty pitiful, if He can't give us free will without also making us sinful creatures. give me phenomenal cosmic powers for the afternoon and i could create a race of intelligent, conscious creatures with free will and no sin.

He didn't make us sinful, that is a product of our free choice. Incidentally, God did create multiple races of conscious creatures with free will an no sin. We along with 1/3 of the race of angels chose sin/created it for ourselves. It is completely opposed to His design. He did, however, have to allow for its possibility, because without the possibility, there is no such thing as free will.

He did, however, have to allow for its possibility, because without the possibility, there is no such thing as free will.
totally and completely untrue. the ability to sin is not essential for free will.

apparently, sin WAS a part of your God's plan, because he decided to allow it even though it was completely unnecessary.

Hey, Here on Earth, I'm living the good life. I don't need a God to have a great time in life, and when I die, I beleive my pleasure won't stop. I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting Region because it only brings pain.

As a philosopher, I have always seen that there probably is some sentinent/omnipotent reason for life being created and creating this thing known as "god" was just one of mans attempts to try and fathom what the human mind probably cant.

As of this moment though I do not believe or disbelieve any god. Anything is possible. Just most things arent likely.

Hey, Here on Earth, I'm living the good life. I don't need a God to have a great time in life, and when I die, I beleive my pleasure won't stop. I'm not rejecting God, I'm rejecting Region because it only brings pain.

You can have Jesus without religion (I assume that was what you meant.)
Matter of fact a lot of religions suck.

totally and completely untrue. the ability to sin is not essential for free will.

apparently, sin WAS a part of your God's plan, because he decided to allow it even though it was completely unnecessary.

Sin is by definition, doing something that is not a part of God's will/law. If He made us so that we could only do His will, how would we be more than complicated robots that simply do according to our programing?

Sin is by definition, doing something that is not a part of God's will/law. If He made us so that we could only do His will, how would we be more than complicated robots that simply do according to our programing?

Originally humans had no knowledge of sin and therefore a lot of things that are sin now, wouldn't have been because they would have been committed in innocence.

But now we are all born with the knowledge of good and evil and hence are automatically responsible for the sins we commit.

Babies and very young children are exempt from this because they have not developed enough mentally to grasp their spiritual condition.

But a lot of intelligent people on here have no excuse.

Originally humans had no knowledge of sin and therefore a lot of things that are sin now, wouldn't have been because they would have been committed in innocence.

But now we are all born with the knowledge of good and evil and hence are automatically responsible for the sins we commit.

Babies and very young children are exempt from this because they have not developed enough mentally to grasp their spiritual condition.

But a lot of intelligent people on here have no excuse.

Actually, according to the Bible "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "the wages of sin is death". The only way out of that condition is "the gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." That gift is given to everyone, "Christ died once, for ALL!". Only those who refuse it will not receive it.

there has to be some higher power in existance, to be able to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, procreate, eat, digest, and rid my body of the waste, could not just happen by chance.

Yes, I know, not scientific, but it is logical, furthermore if you want science then we will be discussing this for a while since there has not been a link found between humans and apes (unless you believe Johansson but his theory is flawed since according to him older sediments are always below younger sediments which is false in earth quake zones since earth liquifies...). Even Leaky notes his theories are error ridden...

http://www.livejournal.com/userpic/19431949/2052507

nope. prove his existance to me somehow and i'll believe

If His existence is proven, you'll know, not believe. Believing is not about knowing. Believing is not about proving. You can't prove that God does or doesn't exist. He wants it that way, or He would change how He works. We only recognize His influence when we have faith (ie believe) in Him.

I'd like to address TUBAHO's statement that without Fundamentalists we have nothing. Without Fundamentalist Christians we wouldn't have people who persecute others based on religion. And don't tell me that Christians don't persecute. The Crusades were fought against the Muslims on the pretext that they basically didn't deserve the Holy Land. Without Fundamentalists we wouldn't have problems like these, not to mention all those closeminded people out there, many that I know are Fundamentalists. Even if you believe that your religion is the only way, you have no right to push it onto other people. If someone wants to believe in something else, they have that right. If God sees any problem with that, then he can come down here himself and tell people they're screwing up, not send his hounds after them. Oh, and I nearly forgot one of the greatest atrocities known to man. Anyone remember the Inquisition?

I'd like to address TUBAHO's statement that without Fundamentalists we have nothing. Without Fundamentalist Christians we wouldn't have people who persecute others based on religion. And don't tell me that Christians don't persecute. The Crusades were fought against the Muslims on the pretext that they basically didn't deserve the Holy Land. Without Fundamentalists we wouldn't have problems like these, not to mention all those closeminded people out there, many that I know are Fundamentalists. Even if you believe that your religion is the only way, you have no right to push it onto other people. If someone wants to believe in something else, they have that right. If God sees any problem with that, then he can come down here himself and tell people they're screwing up, not send his hounds after them. Oh, and I nearly forgot one of the greatest atrocities known to man. Anyone remember the Inquisition?

There is a big difference between the people you describe and Christians in general, and the ideal of Christianity surpasses everyone.

True Christians don't use the religion to excuse behavior that causes physical harm to others. In fact, Christianity is a religion of compassion - we are instructed to tell people about our beliefs because they will go to hell if they don't hear about Jesus' love.

I don't believe that that is the case. I am a devout christian, and I believe that if they don't have the chance to hear about his love and mercy, that they won't go to hell. People go to hell when they hear about him and how he came to save us, and reject him.

I don't believe that that is the case. I am a devout christian, and I believe that if they don't have the chance to hear about his love and mercy, that they won't go to hell. People go to hell when they hear about him and how he came to save us, and reject him.

I hope you're right then 'cause a lot of people don't hear about Him.

i hope one day you'll beleive in Jesus as your saviour -

were not here to flame eachother if we do or dont beleive, but i just hope u guys find god :D
Poor Lynold, you ought to know now that being nice in these forums only encourages savage atheistic and agnostic pricks to attack you for being ignorant, weak-minded, and generally racist or a Nazi. Don't worry, it's their natural reaction to anyone who isn't an elitist communist who professes liberal social policies at the expense of everyone else's wallet.

I hope you're right then 'cause a lot of people don't hear about Him.
Hmm. I don't know about that one. There are not a lot of places in the world that have never even heard of the Christian God, or Jewish God, even if they don't believe in him. I'm not sure yet in my own mind whether having heard someone mention they believe in the Christian God counts as knowing about him. Strange, but then again how do we know what is necessary to "know about" God?

Well according to the Jehova's Witnesses, you will all go to hell anyway. And most of them will too, for that matter. They believe that only a handful of JWs are going to go to heaven.

Well according to the Jehova's Witnesses, you will all go to hell anyway. And most of them will too, for that matter. They believe that only a handful of JWs are going to go to heaven.

Well, unless an actual JW comes here to add their thoughts to the mix I think we can safely discount their little cult.

I've dealt with them firsthand and they fit the description that most people on here seem to have of fundamentalists.

Not that God doesn't love them and want them to come back to Him... just me having a hard time with them :(

Well, unless an actual JW comes here to add their thoughts to the mix I think we can safely discount their little cult.

I've dealt with them firsthand and they fit the description that most people on here seem to have of fundamentalists.

Not that God doesn't love them and want them to come back to Him... just me having a hard time with them :(
Just because your cult does not appear as extreme does not mean that it is still not a cult :p

Sure, I answer the question of whether I believe in God and next thing you'll want to know which God, and I don't need that kind of pressure.

So instead of answering I'll ask my own question.

Does God believe in you?

I do not believe in the God of Judeo-Christian tradition. Many of the reasons for this can be found on this page:

http://website.lineone.net/~kwelos/thealogy.htm

According to the dictionary;

MYTH: 1. A traditional story presenting supernatural beings, ancestors, or
heroes that serve as primordial types in a primative view of the world.
2. A fictitous or imaginary story, person, or thing.
3. A false belief.

According to the dictionary;

MYTH: 1. A traditional story presenting supernatural beings, ancestors, or
heroes that serve as primordial types in a primative view of the world.
2. A fictitous or imaginary story, person, or thing.
3. A false belief.
Deffinatly could

Sure, I answer the question of whether I believe in God and next thing you'll want to know which God, and I don't need that kind of pressure.

So instead of answering I'll ask my own question.

Does God believe in you?
Not if he does not exist :P (not saying he dosent but if he does not exist there is no way he could believe in me)

There is a big difference between the people you describe and Christians in general, and the ideal of Christianity surpasses everyone.

True Christians don't use the religion to excuse behavior that causes physical harm to others. In fact, Christianity is a religion of compassion - we are instructed to tell people about our beliefs because they will go to hell if they don't hear about Jesus' love.

The only difference I see in the belligerence of what you say are "True Christians" is the way their belligerence takes affect in the world. While it's true that most Christians don't go out and start wars because of their narrow views of Religion, a lot do attack others on a mental and emotional level every day. If Christianity is a religion of compassion, you need to go tell all the Christians out there that are trying to violently convert people to back off. Christianity is not the only way, and if someone does not want to "accept God" into their lives, then their view on the subject is clear and there is no longer any reason for trying to convert them.

There is a big difference between the people you describe and Christians in general, and the ideal of Christianity surpasses everyone.

True Christians don't use the religion to excuse behavior that causes physical harm to others. In fact, Christianity is a religion of compassion - we are instructed to tell people about our beliefs because they will go to hell if they don't hear about Jesus' love.

Thats riducular, you claim god is all loving yet for simply not accespting jesus, you are sent hell i assume becuase of orginal sin, well if he exist we know hes a bastard.

Sorry, but it's not naive, you can't base an entire argument around the probability of everything existing as 1, because a probablity of 1 doesn't exist in practise. Your theory only works theoretically.

On the contrary, the probability of everything existing IS EXACTLY one.

Do you exist? One assumes the answer is yes. So, what is the probability that you exist? Since you are a recorded phenomenon, the answer is 1.

Everthing that exists, DOES exist... thus the probability of EVERYTHING existing, is still 1... there is no 'probability' that I don't exist... since I can be quantified, and qualified.

Now - if we wanted to know the probability of everything STILL existing, TOMORROW... we might slip marginally below the integer 1... but, for a present or past occurance, the probability is ALWAYS 1.

Wow people are still aruging on the my probality point, You thinks its any good then, taken me a while to think up that did.

Not necessarily. I believe God has the ability to control everything, he just chooses not to for the most part. Think about it this way, if there was no tragedy at all, would we really know what happiness was? Happiness is relative, and if you take away things to compare it to, then there really is no happiness. I think God lets tragedies happen to show us that life is special. Of course, I'm in no way stating that tragedies are good.

The problem with THAT argument is:

How does a four-year-old child, gang-raped to death after weeks of torture... use THAT as a valid basis for her appreciation of 'god' and his 'good plan', or the concept of 'happiness'?

I don't think pleasant feeling is relative... our bodies automatically respond to pleasing feelings.... they are always 'good'.

So - the argument that 'tragedy' is needed to appreciate 'happiness' is flawed on two levels.... 1) It is insupportable in the case of someone to whom the tragedy = death; 2) It relies on the conception that happiness CANNOT be experienced WITHOUT sadness - which is evidently untrue.

Actually there probably are green goblins all around you that you can't see, but you might be able to hear them. They're called demons. They often cross over from the supernatural to the perceived.

Course, so does God, but most people would rather open themselves up to evil then to good so they're more likely to see demons.

Prove it.

You have just claimed the 'real' existence of Demons.

Prove the existence of demons, please?

He didn't make us sinful, that is a product of our free choice. Incidentally, God did create multiple races of conscious creatures with free will an no sin. We along with 1/3 of the race of angels chose sin/created it for ourselves. It is completely opposed to His design. He did, however, have to allow for its possibility, because without the possibility, there is no such thing as free will.

Non-scriptural... sounds more like Milton to me...

One third of the angels rebelled? Source?

Non-scriptural... sounds more like Milton to me...

One third of the angels rebelled? Source?
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: (btw take a look at the Jesus thread ... there are some questions on languages that you would be more adept to understand then me)

there has to be some higher power in existance, to be able to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, procreate, eat, digest, and rid my body of the waste, could not just happen by chance.

Yes, I know, not scientific, but it is logical, furthermore if you want science then we will be discussing this for a while since there has not been a link found between humans and apes (unless you believe Johansson but his theory is flawed since according to him older sediments are always below younger sediments which is false in earth quake zones since earth liquifies...). Even Leaky notes his theories are error ridden...

Actually - no, it's neither scientific NOR logical.

:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: (btw take a look at the Jesus thread ... there are some questions on languages that you would be more adept to understand then me)

Oops, I must have managed to 'ignore' that thread, so far. :)

:fluffle:

I'm so atheist that I have decided to call "god" "the untrue concept." :p

Oops, I must have managed to 'ignore' that thread, so far. :)

:fluffle:
:p Thats ok but we got into an arguement with a new guy who is having issues with aramaic and hebrew (specificaly claming aramaic is not writen language ... when as far as I can tell it is a writen language that sometimes uses different charicter sets such as hebrew)

Poor Lynold, you ought to know now that being nice in these forums only encourages savage atheistic and agnostic pricks to attack you for being ignorant, weak-minded, and generally racist or a Nazi. Don't worry, it's their natural reaction to anyone who isn't an elitist communist who professes liberal social policies at the expense of everyone else's wallet.

I see the line: "you ought to know now that being nice in these forums"...

Then , I keep on reading, and see the line: "savage atheistic and agnostic pricks".

Then, I go back and read: "you ought to know now that being nice in these forums"

And, I wonder how you reconcile those two phrases...?

:p Thats ok but we got into an arguement with a new guy who is having issues with aramaic and hebrew (specificaly claming aramaic is not writen language ... when as far as I can tell it is a writen language that sometimes uses different charicter sets such as hebrew)

But, NO language is a written language, unless you use characters to describe it on 'the page'... English itself is a 'spoken' langauge that uses basically 'Arabic' characters to represent it's word-sounds, right?

Just because your cult does not appear as extreme does not mean that it is still not a cult :p

Actually - I work with a Jehovah's Witness... and he is far more reasonable than MOST of the 'christian' antagonists on this forum... and has a much better grasp of scripture.

In comparison, the Southern Baptists around where I live, seem like the ones who fit more comfortably into the 'cult' grouping...

I see the line: "you ought to know now that being nice in these forums"...

Then , I keep on reading, and see the line: "savage atheistic and agnostic pricks".

Then, I go back and read: "you ought to know now that being nice in these forums"

And, I wonder how you reconcile those two phrases...?
yeah, i pretty much tuned that post out at "savage atheistic and agnostic pricks," because my Hypocrite Detector was making so much noise i couldn't concentrate any more.

Actually - I work with a Jehovah's Witness... and he is far more reasonable than MOST of the 'christian' antagonists on this forum... and has a much better grasp of scripture.

In comparison, the Southern Baptists around where I live, seem like the ones who fit more comfortably into the 'cult' grouping...
Fair enough … we don’t have many witnesses around here (at least not prevalent) I think it is cause door to door knocking sucks in -40 below temps :D

Fair enough … we don’t have many witnesses around here (at least not prevalent) I think it is cause door to door knocking sucks in -40 below temps :D

Yeah - the guy I work with was originally a Wisconsin native, and he says it could be something of a trial witnessing in the colder parts of the year... :D

yeah, i pretty much tuned that post out at "savage atheistic and agnostic pricks," because my Hypocrite Detector was making so much noise i couldn't concentrate any more.

I'm quite interested in the idea of a savage agnostic, to be honest...

Someone who is 'unsure' in a particularly violent fashion?

Wow people are still aruging on the my probality point, You thinks its any good then, taken me a while to think up that did.

Respect to you for arriving there yourself... this is actually a point I made quite some time back, in another 'god created' thread... the fact that probability ONLY matters in the case of things that MIGHT happen... and becomes an irrelevence in PAST events.. since they ALWAYS have a probability of 1... since they HAVE happened. :)

I'm quite interested in the idea of a savage agnostic, to be honest...

Someone who is 'unsure' in a particularly violent fashion?

Militant agnostic: I don't know, AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!!!! AND IF YOU SAY YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WRONG!!!! :D :gundge: :p

Militant agnostic: I don't know, AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!!!! AND IF YOU SAY YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WRONG!!!! :D :gundge: :p

:D

I'm quite interested in the idea of a savage agnostic, to be honest...

Someone who is 'unsure' in a particularly violent fashion?
i'm both savage and an agnostic, but i would say my agnosticism is the least savage aspect of my personality.

i'm both savage and an agnostic, but i would say my agnosticism is the least savage aspect of my personality.
Its true ... just tell her abortion is killing babies and people have every right to tell her to cary it to full term

:) see the "savage" you get then

God is a demilich.

Militant agnostic: I don't know, AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!!!! AND IF YOU SAY YOU KNOW, YOU'RE WRONG!!!! :D :gundge: :p
I have that bumper sticker on my car. Militant agnostic: I don't know, AND YOU DON'T EITHER!!!
I also have "God was my copilot, but we crashed in the mountains and I had to eat him." And "you found God, if nobody else claims him in thity days you get to keep him"

Quote:
Yes My Friend,
I do see your point. Thank you. But I think you may have missed mine.
FAITH.

It's not for me or you to prove anything.
It's for me or you to have FAITH or not.
I respect you for your opinion.
If you don't have faith, then why would you be concerned about eternal damnation? I don't feel "threatened" by that thought.

Why do we have the laws of the land that we have?

Do you feel threatened by imprisonment if you break those laws? The laws we live by or not in our country(s) respectively tell us how we have to live our lives (or not).

Isn't it amazing how our original laws are based on the same basic beliefs as the Bible?

So again my friend.

My point was and is FAITH
Quote:


I'm sick of hearing that we need to have faith here's what Richard Dawkins thinks and I agree with him.

Quotes:

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.
-- Richard Dawkins (attributed: source unknown)

Faith is powerful enough to immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings. It even immunizes them against fear, if they honestly believe that a martyr's death will send them straight to heaven.
-- Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

Its true ... just tell her abortion is killing babies and people have every right to tell her to cary it to full term

:) see the "savage" you get then
you know, even that one probably wouldnt max out my savagry...if somebody told me those things i would have a pretty easy reply:

"Whether or not an abortion kills a baby is irrelevant to my stance on abortion, and you are correct that you have the right to say that you think I must carry a pregnancy to term. If you would like to try to force me to carry a pregnancy to term, please do bring it on."

now if you want savage, try challenging my belief in the God-like status of Stephen Lynch. :P

you know, even that one probably wouldnt max out my savagry...if somebody told me those things i would have a pretty easy reply:

"Whether or not an abortion kills a baby is irrelevant to my stance on abortion, and you are correct that you have the right to say that you think I must carry a pregnancy to term. If you would like to try to force me to carry a pregnancy to term, please do bring it on."

now if you want savage, try challenging my belief in the God-like status of Stephen Lynch. :P

I'll bite, who is Stephen Lynch.

I'll bite, who is Stephen Lynch.
Was thinking the same thing lol

you know, even that one probably wouldnt max out my savagry...if somebody told me those things i would have a pretty easy reply:

"Whether or not an abortion kills a baby is irrelevant to my stance on abortion, and you are correct that you have the right to say that you think I must carry a pregnancy to term. If you would like to try to force me to carry a pregnancy to term, please do bring it on."

now if you want savage, try challenging my belief in the God-like status of Stephen Lynch. :P

Curious... do you mean:

http://www.stephenlynch.com/

or

http://www.house.gov/lynch/

Depending on which way you answer, will let me know whether you are 'savage' or just 'deranged'.... :)

Curious... do you mean:

http://www.stephenlynch.com/

or

http://www.house.gov/lynch/

Depending on which way you answer, will let me know whether you are 'savage' or just 'deranged'.... :)
LOL :fluffle:

Nope, that is one of the most confusing things i have ever read

Makes sence to me!

LOL :fluffle:

:D - of course - it remains to be seen if it is funny... or scary. :)

Curious... do you mean:

http://www.stephenlynch.com/

that's the one. i liked him when i heard his song "If I Were Gay." i loved him after i heard "Ugly Baby." since "Kill A Kitten," i worship him as a god.

that's the one. i liked him when i heard his song "If I Were Gay." i loved him after i heard "Ugly Baby." since "Kill A Kitten," i worship him as a god.

Ah - then it is all good...

:)

Ah - then it is all good...

:)
i guess it's true what they say; everybody needs something to worship. some of us just have higher standards than others :P.

Death is how Allah saves his children. That's just how it works.

That is, unless, you actually *want* to stay here. Ugh.
wow, i guess that pretty much says it all.

i would rather "stay here" than be dead, at least for now. however, i would rather have a finite life on Earth than an eternal life on Earth, and i am content with the knowledge that i will eventually die.

the view of death as salvation pretty much sums up everything that is wrong with most religious beliefs, in my opinion.

i guess it's true what they say; everybody needs something to worship. some of us just have higher standards than others :P.

Deliciously harsh. :)

that's the one. i liked him when i heard his song "If I Were Gay." i loved him after i heard "Ugly Baby." since "Kill A Kitten," i worship him as a god.
I loved his song "What if That Guy From Smashing Pumpkins Lost his Car Keys?"
Me being a SP fan and all, I found that song absolutely hilarious.

Do you believe in gawd? I believe in gawd. HAHAHAHAHA. I believe in gawd. HAAHA. I believe in gawd.

The problem with THAT argument is:

How does a four-year-old child, gang-raped to death after weeks of torture... use THAT as a valid basis for her appreciation of 'god' and his 'good plan', or the concept of 'happiness'?
Quite simply, THAT experience doesn't have to BE the basis for her appreciation of 'god' and his 'good plan' or the concept of 'happiness'. It can stand in contrast to all the good that is in her life.

Quite simply, THAT experience doesn't have to BE the basis for her appreciation of 'god' and his 'good plan' or the concept of 'happiness'. It can stand in contrast to all the good that is in her life.

You assume, of course, that the four-year-old in question has had 'good' things in her life.

Or perhaps you are implying that the 'rape and body in a dumpster' scenario is what makes a four-year-old appreciate the 'good' in her abusive crack-addict parents, and the three meals she (usually) gets per week?

I just don't buy it.

Sure do!

(the god written of in the bible)

Not your God, but I do believe in one.