NationStates Jolt Archive

I hate to do this to you conservatives (well, not really), but read and choke...

I love Republicans who vote Republican, crying about "big government" and stuff, and then whine when their own federal gravy train gets nixed...

"A Bush administration proposal that would cut billions of dollars in subsidies to big cotton growers has struck at a core GOP constituency, setting off a battle in Republican congressional ranks that pits budget cutters and prairie-state populists against traditional agricultural interests.

The Bush plan threatens an elaborate government safety net that is the handiwork of such legendary southern Democrats as Lyndon B. Johnson (Tex.) and James O. Eastland (Miss.), as well as a new generation of Republican leaders from the region. The move reflects growing pressure to hold down soaring federal deficits and a recognition that even a business woven deeply into the history, economy and politics of the South must come to terms with dramatic changes underway in global trade."

And, this paragraph is especially funny:

"The president's decision to take on the farm lobby has caught many by surprise. He gave no hint of it during his reelection campaign, which was based on winning the South and most of the upper Midwest farm states."

Believe it or not, he also didn't campaign on slashing the education budget either. Weird, how that works, huh?

Of course, these subsidies go to a small, elite, percentage of cotton growers, not the "family farm" it's supposed to protect. And really, what's the worst that can happen if these cotton subsidies are reduced?

"Without the safety net, some analysts contend, many of the 25,000 U.S. cotton growers would switch to crops such as soybeans or vegetables or quit farming."

Soybeans or vegetables? Egads!

It's amazing how the cotton cartel is being undone by its own patrons, and those who are being run out on a rail will still be ever faithful to their ruinous leadership because of their "moral values".

(all quotes provided by The Washington Post)

I say good-fucking-riddance. It's their own fault for voting for the loon.

I say good-fucking-riddance. It's their own fault for voting for the loon.
Are you ashamed that Bush grew up in Texas? I would be.

* You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.
* You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.
* You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.
* You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.
* You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical documented changes in the earth's climate and more affected by soccer moms driving SUVs.
* You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.
* You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.
* You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.
* You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.
* You have to believe that self esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.
* You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make The Passion of the Christ for financial gain only.
* You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.
* You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.
* You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Gen. Robert E. Lee, and Thomas Edison.
* You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.
* You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice person.
* You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.
* You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.
* You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected, and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.
* You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese government is somehow in the best interest to the United States.
* You have to believe that the posting of this list is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.

Are you ashamed that Bush grew up in Texas? I would be.
I applauded the sentiments of the Dixie Chicks on that one. As a native Texan, I take every opportunity to disown the man.

I've taken every opportunity, and more.

I'll be disowning this state after I graduate. That's how pissed off I am.

The Ant and the Grasshopper (2004 version)
A new twist.

OLD VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!


MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grass-hopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, CNN, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green." Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing "We shall overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Tom Daschle , Dick Gephart, Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean stage an interview with Peter Jennings claiming that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share." Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary Clinton gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of Federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case. As the story ends, we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. Later, the grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.


MORAL OF THE STORY: Vote Republican

Yeah, too bad the Dixie Chix all got hammered by McGraw and Toby Keith. Especially Toby Keith. And the fact that their own fans rejected them. Or the fact that they were fine with Bush until they were in England, in which case they went along with the prevailing mood of "fuck Bush!"

* You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.
I personally find many of your arguments quite compelling and well thought out, though obviously biased without an accurate view of the opposition. However, this part is just ridiculous, and if you had just left that out it really wouldn't've been bad at all, in my opinion. But it's much easier to have an ideological and not a partisan base, in my opinion. I'm liberal, but certainly no Democrat.

The Ant and the Grasshopper (2004 version)
A new twist.

OLD VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!


MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grass-hopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, CNN, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green." Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing "We shall overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Tom Daschle , Dick Gephart, Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean stage an interview with Peter Jennings claiming that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share." Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary Clinton gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of Federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case. As the story ends, we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. Later, the grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.


MORAL OF THE STORY: Vote Republican


LOL! Did you make that up? That was fucking hilarious!

* You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.
Yes
* You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.
Mostly
* You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.
No
* You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.
No
* You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical documented changes in the earth's climate and more affected by soccer moms driving SUVs.
It's both
* You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.
Not entirely and yes
* You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.
Partly- and abstinence only sex education
* You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.
No
* You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.
Frequently
* You have to believe that self esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.
No
* You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make The Passion of the Christ for financial gain only.
No, it's because he's a zealot
* You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.
No
* You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.
Yes
* You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Gen. Robert E. Lee, and Thomas Edison.
Equally
* You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.
No
* You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice person.
Yes
* You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.
Democratic Socialism works fine for lots of people.
* You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.
What truthful conservatives?
* You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected, and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.
Yes, though I have yet to one with bestality, and only if on public property
* You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese government is somehow in the best interest to the United States.
No
* You have to believe that the posting of this list is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.
No, single idiots abound.

I personally find many of your arguments quite compelling and well thought out, though obviously biased without an accurate view of the opposition. However, this part is just ridiculous, and if you had just left that out it really wouldn't've been bad at all, in my opinion. But it's much easier to have an ideological and not a partisan base, in my opinion. I'm liberal, but certainly no Democrat.

So you believe it is ok for Clinton to have Perjured himself in a COURT OF LAW?!?!

How is that defending the Constitution?

Regards,
Gaar

That is a pretty riduclous list.

Abortion/Capital Punishment - For your arguement to make sense pro-choice citizens would have to believe a living person and a fetus is the same thing. Which they don't.

Global Warming - You obviously haven't read up on global warming outside of Conservative think tank groups.

AIDS - No one makes that arguement. Put apparently giving away free condoms and educating the public is lot worse than having someone go through a painful slow death.

SEX OFFENDER - Clinton was not charged for being a sex offender. He would have to commit a sexual crime to be a sex offender. Getting a BJ while you are married by a girl over 18 is not a sexual crime sleazy or not. He was charged with lying under oath, and got impeached for it. Get over it! Secondly, you can document lies that Bush told, just look at the Niger connection in the State of Union Address. They have the paperwork saying it was a fake prior to saying it, but he said it. He lied, and there has been nothing done about it since.


And well I guess I dont even fit the list cause I dont think its a Right Wing Conspiracy. I just think you are dead wrong on about 90% of the list.



PS... To be republican.

You must shun away from education.
You must be very afraid of two men getting a peice of paper saying that they are married.
You must be for moral values but secretly are a porn fiend, gambler or a drug addict.
You must claim that you are against government spending, but hail a President that blows a giant surplus.
You must support the basic deforestation of our forests to prevent forest fires.
You must disobey the U.N. to enforce the U.N.
You must love taking jobs away from the American people and send them over seas to sweatshops.
You must love seeing elderly couples struggle to pay their prescription drug bills.
You must love giving tax cuts to richest Americans.

Yeah, too bad the Dixie Chix all got hammered by McGraw and Toby Keith. Especially Toby Keith. And the fact that their own fans rejected them. Or the fact that they were fine with Bush until they were in England, in which case they went along with the prevailing mood of "fuck Bush!"

Harm to their sales from that were minimal. I don't care if it's prevailing mood or not, I still say "fuck Bush."

SEX OFFENDER - Clinton was not charged for being a sex offender. He would have to commit a sexual crime to be a sex offender. Getting a BJ while you are married by a girl over 18 is not a sexual crime sleazy or not. He was charged with lying under oath, and got impeached for it. Get over it! Secondly, you can document lies that Bush told, just look at the Niger connection in the State of Union Address. They have the paperwork saying it was a fake prior to saying it, but he said it. He lied, and there has been nothing done about it since.

No sorry, Clinton HAD been charged with Sexual Misconduct and a U.S. Citizen was having their day in COURT, and he LIED UNDER OATH, in a COURT of LAW!

Now please show me where Bush has done THAT, I'll wait here...

Regards,
Gaar

So you believe it is ok for Clinton to have Perjured himself in a COURT OF LAW?!?!

How is that defending the Constitution?

Regards,
Gaar

It does defend it. He was IMPEACHED! It has only happened once before that, what more do you want?

and p.s. who the hell is claiming that it was ok?

No sorry, Clinton HAD been charged with Sexual Misconduct and a U.S. Citizen was having their day in COURT, and he LIED UNDER OATH, in a COURT of LAW!

Now please show me where Bush has done THAT, I'll wait here...

Regards,
Gaar


sex offenders are rapers, molesters... not people who get bjs.

He shouldn't have perjured himself, but they shouldn't have asked about his sex life anyway. It was between he, Monica and Hillary.

sex offenders are rapers, molesters... not people who get bjs.

Obviously you are unaware of the case he was being questioned for, it wasn't about a BJ...

Why doesn't it surprise me that you don't even know the facts behind the incident?

Regards,
Gaar

No sorry, Clinton HAD been charged with Sexual Misconduct and a U.S. Citizen was having their day in COURT, and he LIED UNDER OATH, in a COURT of LAW!

Now please show me where Bush has done THAT, I'll wait here...

Regards,
Gaar

The only reason he was able to lie without the "under oath" part attached (especially during his testemony to the 9/11 commision, you know, when he needed Cheney there to have his hand up his ass so that Dickie could speak for him) was because he catagorically refuses to take any oath to tell the truth in the first place. Don't you read? Honestly...

The Ant and the Grasshopper (2004 version)
Actually, ants do nothing for themselves. Everything is cone for the colony, being the eusocial insects that they are. One of the astounding results of haplodiploidy (only some members of the species are capable of reproduction). The sterile ant worker caste do nothing but labour 'til they drop, though they do loiter sometimes, depending on species, population, and nutrient availability.

Second of all, a lone ants doesn't last for even 48 hours, typically no more than 24. They have a need to be around other ants, and will die from separation, even if it was possible to keep living for a while yet. A few excpetions must be made for the more solitary ants, like the bullet ant, who forage individually, but they are still a eusocial insect, and need that intraspecies (intra- = within) interaction.

Second of all, say the grasshopper was missing an antenna. Thus it did not fail to gather food for the winter from lack of trying, but from lack of ability (though most insects actually hibernate during winter, but let's go with the allegory). Antennae are one of the most important organs on an insect, which are typically the olfactory (smell), gustatory (taste), primary auditory (hearing), important tactile (touch) sensors, and chemical communication organs for species able to communicate through pheromones. So the grasshopper is not hopping aroud not gathering food because he's carefree, but because he just can't seem to get anything straight and was just not as privileged as the ant.

So you believe it is ok for Clinton to have Perjured himself in a COURT OF LAW?!?!

How is that defending the Constitution?

Regards,
Gaar

But it's okay if it's not in court, right?

He shouldn't have perjured himself, but they shouldn't have asked about his sex life anyway. It was between he, Monica and Hillary.

He was charged with Sexual Misconduct while Governor of Arkansas.

So I believe that any other Sexual Misconduct may be pertinent, wouldn't it?

And that he lied about it seems to reinforce that he would lie about the other incident also, does it not?

Regards,
Gaar

Obviously you are unaware of the case he was being questioned for, it wasn't about a BJ...

Why doesn't it surprise me that you don't even know the facts behind the incident?

Regards,
Gaar


why are you attacking me? but go ahead stereotype me! im just a babykilling treehugging hippie in your mind.

im sure you are talking about the paula jones case...

* You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.
* You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.
* You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.
* You have to believe that there was no art before Federal funding.
* You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical documented changes in the earth's climate and more affected by soccer moms driving SUVs.
* You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.
* You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.
* You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach 4th graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.
* You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have never been outside of San Francisco do.
* You have to believe that self esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.
* You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make The Passion of the Christ for financial gain only.
* You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.
* You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.
* You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, Gen. Robert E. Lee, and Thomas Edison.
* You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides are not.
* You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice person.
* You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.
* You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex offender belonged in the White House.
* You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected, and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.
* You have to believe that illegal Democratic Party funding by the Chinese government is somehow in the best interest to the United States.
* You have to believe that the posting of this list is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.

As a person living in california I can tell you that not all democrats believe all those, but most believe everything on that list. Especially when they say that women deserve the same pay for the same job, yet have no problem taking maternity leave when men can't. It's also funny how democrats believe that posting the ten commandments violates the church and state separation, while posting the entire koran in public buildings is okay. Democratic party, promoting hypocrisy in our nation!

But it's okay if it's not in court, right?

Never said it was right.

But it also isn't against the LAW, is it?

Regards,
Gaar

He was charged with Sexual Misconduct while Governor of Arkansas.

So I believe that any other Sexual Misconduct may be pertinent, wouldn't it?

And that he lied about it seems to reinforce that he would lie about the other incident also, does it not?

Regards,
Gaar


doesnt matter if he was charged or not, it is whether he was convicted.

and the country elected him, so obviosuly that was not a huge issue.

Obviously you are unaware of the case he was being questioned for, it wasn't about a BJ...

Why doesn't it surprise me that you don't even know the facts behind the incident?

Regards,
Gaar

If they were proven to be facts, he might have been prosecuted. There is a woman in Houston who accused Dubya of rape, so I guess he's a sex offender too.

why are you attacking me? but go ahead stereotype me! im just a babykilling treehugging hippie in your mind.

im sure you are talking about the paula jones case...

And she didn't deserve her day in Court?

And it was ok for Clinton to lie during her case?

Regards,
Gaar

If they were proven to be facts, he might have been prosecuted. There is a woman in Houston who accused Dubya of rape, so I guess he's a sex offender too.

Did she take her case to Court?

Did Bush LIE under OATH to get away with it?

Regards,
Gaar

As a person living in california I can tell you that not all democrats believe all those, but most believe everything on that list. Especially when they say that women deserve the same pay for the same job, yet have no problem taking maternity leave when men can't. It's also funny how democrats believe that posting the ten commandments violates the church and state separation, while posting the entire koran in public buildings is okay. Democratic party, promoting hypocrisy in our nation!


how is that not respecting gender roles? giving women time to raise their child? but apparently its either discriminate against women, or force them to have their children on their lunch break.

The Ant and the Grasshopper (2004 version)
A new twist.

OLD VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed. The grasshopper has no food or shelter so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself!


MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper thinks he's a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away. Come winter, the shivering grass-hopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, CNN, NBC, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper, and everybody cries when they sing "It's Not Easy Being Green." Jesse Jackson stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing "We shall overcome." Jesse then has the group kneel down to pray to God for the grasshopper's sake. John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Tom Daschle , Dick Gephart, Hillary Clinton and Howard Dean stage an interview with Peter Jennings claiming that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his "fair share." Finally, the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Grasshopper Act," retroactive to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the government. Hillary Clinton gets her old law firm to represent the grasshopper in a defamation suit against the ant, and the case is tried before a panel of Federal judges that Bill Clinton appointed from a list of single-parent welfare recipients. The ant loses the case. As the story ends, we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. Later, the grasshopper is found dead in a drug-related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.


MORAL OF THE STORY: Vote Republican

I too find this f'ing hilarious, although not for the reasons someone else might think. The ant, with his communal nature and hive mentality, is hardly the Horatio Alger of the animal kingdom. If anything, the lesson you should get out of this is that labor is most effective when collectivized and unionized. . .oh shit, I just threw a monkeywrench into your Randroid fantasies. Sorry about that.

:headbang:

Ah, the constant interplay of Republican and Deomcrat.

I love my Canadian Politics, with one real party, the two semi-real parties, and the trillions of unreal parties.

Anyway, the list posted earlier seems mainly to be based on stereotypes.

And BitchKitten is right. Though socialism in a communist way is pretty much unattainable, Social Democracy can work out great. Coporations can really move an economy, but its nice to have a goverment that will protect the most vulnerable members of society, and keep things under control.

Also, about the Grasshopper story... funny but completly innacurate. The mis-conception that poor people are destitute only because they are lazy is wrong. Would you spend your life on the streets if you could merely walk in someplace and start working?

Anyway, sorry for the rambles,

Delegate from Utappia

Again, the conservatives miss the point by such a vast margin that a 747 could fly through it. Instead they whip out CLENIS! CLENIS!!

Amazing, simply AMAZING

And she didn't deserve her day in Court?

And it was ok for Clinton to lie during her case?

Regards,
Gaar


who is saying that is ok that clinton lied? it was not, no one is claiming that.


but what you are claiming that apparently you can lie all the hell you want all over the place if you arent under oath. all im saying is clinton lied about getting a bj, bush lied about a war that lead to 1500 american deaths...

* You have to ...

...Have a bunch of opinions that if stated slyly to the ignorant will sound contradictory, like supporting the troops but not wanting their arms and legs blown off...

...* You have to believe that the posting of this list is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.

Things you have to believe to be a Republican today:

* Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush’s daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad guy when Bush needed a “we can’t find Bin Laden” diversion.
* Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.
* The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.
* A woman can’t be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.
* Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.
* The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans’ benefits and combat pay.
* If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won’t have sex.
* A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time Allies, then demand their cooperation and money.
* Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.
* HMOs, pharmecutical, and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.
* Global warming and tobacco’s link to cancer are junk science, but creationism should be taught in schools.
* A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.
* Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.
* The public has a right to know about Hillary’s cattle trades, but George Bush’s driving and military record is none of our business.
* Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you’re a conservative radio host. Then it’s an illness, and you need our prayers for your recovery.
* You support states’ rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have the right to adopt.
* What Bill Clinton did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the ‘80s is irrelevant.

As a person living in california I can tell you that not all democrats believe all those, but most believe everything on that list. Especially when they say that women deserve the same pay for the same job, yet have no problem taking maternity leave when men can't. It's also funny how democrats believe that posting the ten commandments violates the church and state separation, while posting the entire koran in public buildings is okay. Democratic party, promoting hypocrisy in our nation!
That's just about stupid.
A) Men don't get pregnant. Get it, maternity leave.
B) Men are covered on the Family Leave Act
C) I'm not aware of Democrats in favor of posting the Koran in public buildings. I would certainly object.

how is that not respecting gender roles? giving women time to raise their child? but apparently its either discriminate against women, or force them to have their children on their lunch break.

In principle, I support maternity leave. However, the feminists have fought hard to make sure that women and men get the same pay for the same job. If a woman believes she should earn the same pay, yet takes maternity leave while her male co-workers cannot, she's a hypocrite, unless she wants to give something up. After all, same work, same pay. They wanted it, and we are all bound to give it.

The only reason he was able to lie without the "under oath" part attached (especially during his testemony to the 9/11 commision, you know, when he needed Cheney there to have his hand up his ass so that Dickie could speak for him) was because he catagorically refuses to take any oath to tell the truth in the first place. Don't you read? Honestly...

Technically he's under his oath of office.

Not that anyone is going to hold him to it.

ps. posting the ten comandments in buildings not associated with the government is fine, along with the koran. its posting it in courthouses and capitals and what not that violates the seperation.

No sorry, Clinton HAD been charged with Sexual Misconduct and a U.S. Citizen was having their day in COURT, and he LIED UNDER OATH, in a COURT of LAW!

Now please show me where Bush has done THAT, I'll wait here...

Regards,
Gaar
Yet these strange facts:

Highest approval rating recorded during presidency:

Clinton 71
Reagan 68

Average approval rating during term:

Clinton 55
Reagan 53

Approval ratings on leaving office:

Clinton 66
Reagan 51

All numbers according to Gallup.

To top it off, according to a 2003 CNN poll:

Only Abraham Lincoln (chosen by 15%) and John F. Kennedy (13%) finished ahead of Clinton (11%) in the April poll, which asked Americans who was "the greatest" president.

Not too shabby?

In principle, I support maternity leave. However, the feminists have fought hard to make sure that women and men get the same pay for the same job. If a woman believes she should earn the same pay, yet takes maternity leave while her male co-workers cannot, she's a hypocrite, unless she wants to give something up. After all, same work, same pay. They wanted it, and we are all bound to give it.

men have medical leaves, just the basically the same as a womens maternity leave.

In principle, I support maternity leave. However, the feminists have fought hard to make sure that women and men get the same pay for the same job. If a woman believes she should earn the same pay, yet takes maternity leave while her male co-workers cannot, she's a hypocrite, unless she wants to give something up. After all, same work, same pay. They wanted it, and we are all bound to give it.

This post is complete misogynistic drivel. What you're saying is that, "because women can get pregnant, and CON NOT work while giving birth, "they don't deserve equal pay and benefits."

Positively the most disgusting display I've seen in months.

REPUBLICAN / DEMOCRAT

Good vs. Bad


I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November.

Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe. Lemme see. have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator -- bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy -- good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps -- bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office -- good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit -- bad...

Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good...
Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes -- good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes -- bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted -- good...
Saddam turned over for trial -- bad.

Yet these strange facts:

Highest approval rating recorded during presidency:

Clinton 71
Reagan 68

Average approval rating during term:

Clinton 55
Reagan 53

Approval ratings on leaving office:

Clinton 66
Reagan 51

All numbers according to Gallup.

To top it off, according to a 2003 CNN poll:

Only Abraham Lincoln (chosen by 15%) and John F. Kennedy (13%) finished ahead of Clinton (11%) in the April poll, which asked Americans who was "the greatest" president.

Not too shabby?

Those wouldn't be the same Americans YOU call IDIOTS would it?

So we can make a point when you agree with it, but we are a bunch of dolts when you don't?

That's what I thought...

Regards,
Gaar

Ok, so if democrats supported clinton so much during serbia then why do we think its good that milosevic is not yet convicted?

and also.. we had allies in serbia and it wasnt a us op, it was a nato op.


oh yea, and that was pre 9/11 remember your conservative formula since 9/11 changed everything. 9/11 + whatever we say = shut up.

REPUBLICAN / DEMOCRAT

Good vs. Bad


I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November.

Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else. Who to believe. Lemme see. have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator -- bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy -- good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps -- bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office -- good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit -- bad...

Clinton says mass graves in Serbia - good...
Entire world says WMD in Iraq - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes -- good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes -- bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted -- good...
Saddam turned over for trial -- bad.


How did this become about terrorism and Iraq. I was talking about how Bush is sticking it to his own contituants by attacking farm subsidies. Get your head in the game! Dork!

Anyway, the list posted earlier seems mainly to be based on stereotypes.

I especially liked the bit at the end that says you have to believe that it's part of a vast right wing conspiracy. Truth is that things like that do come out of right wing think tanks, just like the one I posted came out of Air America Radio (http://www.airamericaradio.com)

And BitchKitten is right. Though socialism in a communist way is pretty much unattainable, Social Democracy can work out great. Coporations can really move an economy, but its nice to have a goverment that will protect the most vulnerable members of society, and keep things under control.

The truth is, that is straigh up capitalism as envisaged by Adam Smith. He said that while trade, if left alone, will generate the greatest amount of wealth for the country, it will then go through a period where a few business interests become powerful enough to dominate the others. It is then the duty of government to step in and break them up so that competition can become a force again.

That's right folks. Adam Smith, father of capitalism... Commie. ;)

Sorry to disappoint your stereotypes, but I supported Bush's action in Afghanistan.

How did this become about terrorism and Iraq. I was talking about how Bush is sticking it to his own contituants by attacking farm subsidies. Get your head in the game! Dork!

Ok, so here are a couple more...

Pointing out Republican Hypocrisy - Good

Pointing out Democratic Hypocrisy - Bad

Sorry to disappoint your stereotypes, but I supported Bush's action in Afghanistan.

Pretty much everyone supported the action in Afghanistan. It was when Bush started looking to Iraq that anyone with a brain that had temporarily been put on hold after 9/11 that suddenly went, "Dude!? WTF!"

Those wouldn't be the same Americans YOU call IDIOTS would it?

So we can make a point when you agree with it, but we are a bunch of dolts when you don't?

That's what I thought...

Regards,
Gaar
Point me to ANY post where I have stated that Americans are as you say "idiots". If anyone is making claims about Americans being "idiots" it is YOU?

Ok, so here are a couple more...

Pointing out Republican Hypocrisy - Good

Pointing out Democratic Hypocrisy - Bad

so, your admiting your hypocrisy? wow you are good at online fights!

Ok, so here are a couple more...

Pointing out Republican Hypocrisy - Good

Pointing out Democratic Hypocrisy - Bad

Pointing out Democratic accomplishments and praiseworthy values - Partisan Propoganda.

Pointing out Republican accomplishments and praisworthy values - ...uh we'll have to get back to you on that.

Point me to ANY post where I have stated that Americans are as you say "idiots". If anyone is making claims about Americans being "idiots" it is YOU?

exactly, we have to be idiots to vote clinton in twice!

exactly, we have to be idiots to vote clinton in twice!

Well I have to agree there!

Ok, so here are a couple more...

Pointing out Republican Hypocrisy - Good

Pointing out Democratic Hypocrisy - Bad


Ahh, yes. Flippant rhetoric, the natural conservative defence mechannism.

*In the voice of Steve Irwin*

"Now watch what happens when I take away the conservative's tax cut... Whoa crickey! He's grouchey t'day!..."

It's also funny how democrats believe that posting the ten commandments violates the church and state separation, while posting the entire koran in public buildings is okay. Democratic party, promoting hypocrisy in our nation!
What self-respecting secularist would ever even think that?

I too find this f'ing hilarious, although not for the reasons someone else might think. The ant, with his communal nature and hive mentality, is hardly the Horatio Alger of the animal kingdom. If anything, the lesson you should get out of this is that labor is most effective when collectivized and unionized. . .oh shit, I just threw a monkeywrench into your Randroid fantasies. Sorry about that.
I kind of addressed that with my entomological rant about ant eusociality:Actually, ants do nothing for themselves. Everything is cone for the colony, being the eusocial insects that they are. One of the astounding results of haplodiploidy (only some members of the species are capable of reproduction). The sterile ant worker caste do nothing but labour 'til they drop, though they do loiter sometimes, depending on species, population, and nutrient availability.

Second of all, a lone ants doesn't last for even 48 hours, typically no more than 24. They have a need to be around other ants, and will die from separation, even if it was possible to keep living for a while yet. A few excpetions must be made for the more solitary ants, like the bullet ant, who forage individually, but they are still a eusocial insect, and need that intraspecies (intra- = within) interaction.I happen to have a thing for eusocial insects, with ants being at the top, but bees, wasps, and termites certainly on there as well. It is only ants like the bullet ant that do anything individually. This is because they get their name from their sting, which feels like getting shot in the arm but worse. Pretty much the most severe swelling you'll ever see takes place, with blinding pain. Peaks at 24-48 hours.

C) I'm not aware of Democrats in favor of posting the Koran in public buildings. I would certainly object.
As would I, though only government buildings. And only if it does not serve an educational purpose (such as in an exhibit on Mesopotamia).

Ok, so here are a couple more...

Pointing out Republican Hypocrisy - Good

Pointing out Democratic Hypocrisy - Bad
My God! I think you've just discovered the "Us = good, them = bad" of human nature! You, sir, are a genius!

Ahh, yes. Flippant rhetoric, the natural conservative defence mechannism.

*In the voice of Steve Irwin*

"Now watch what happens when I take away the conservative's tax cut... Whoa crickey! He's grouchey t'day!..."


that is great, i think ill have to steal that quote for some away messages.

William Jefferson Clinton was our best president since Kennedy.

William Jefferson Clinton was our best president since Kennedy.


Somebody finally agrees with me. Fucking brilliant, indeed.

I find these sweeping generalizations offensive.

The truth is... as South Park puts it, most of the time when voting, you have to choice between a douche or a turd. Basically, I don't think that anyone can say that they completely support the policies of their chosen party.

For instance, I vote democratic, but I am staunchly pro-life. Why? I am believe that the social policies of the republican party are dangerous. Borrow and spend rather than tax and spend? I am also against capital punishment, for gun control, and anti-war.

I know a lot of people who, although they disagree with the social policies of the republican party, vote republican because the abortion issue is the most important issue there is to them.

To be a good republican or democrat, you don't have to believe all of these things people are saying.

About the war bits... I may have supported an effort in Iraq to oust Saddam because of his use of chemical weaponry on his own people, I cannot condone lying about WMD's and a connection to Al-Qaeda just to get the American people's support. I also cannot believe how little consideration we gave to the opinion of the rest of the world. We completely dismissed Europe. How arrogant of us.

Now, I think it was in Clinton's time, but I don't remember exactly, there was a genocide in Rwanda that would have not taken an incredible amount of effort to stop. These people were murdering each other with machetes. They didn't even have guns.

About WMD's in general, why is it any more dangerous for China to have nukes than it is for us to? Why should the rest of the world trust us with 'real ultimate power' when we have no regard for the opinion of the rest of the world, and make war with seemingly reckless abandon. People around the world should fear the U.S. I don't mean the sort of 'fear and respect', I mean the sort of fear like you are afraid of a bully with a knife or gun.

Also, if it's simple enough, could someone tell me how to quote other posts?

William Jefferson Clinton was our best president since Kennedy.

You know what, you're right. He did absolutely nothing to stop Enron and WorldCom when they were sticking it to the common man! :D Go Clinton.

William Jefferson Clinton was our best president since Kennedy.

Well, he was the best conservative president we ever had. Opposed everything that the Democratic party stands for and still saved it from the Republicans for 8 years.

Then the Republicans saw the flaw in their strategy, they had to get people to be so stupid that they wouldn't even remember history a scant 4 years old.

"Clinton crashed the economy of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr saved it from him." WTF! The economy sucks. Jr.'s economy still sucks NOW after Clinton brought us 8 years of expansion and growth. And still the Republicans have managed to paint the picture in the exact negative and their followers believe it. No wonder the Republican's are so enamoured of the Ant, a creature that has no capacity for individual thought and, if capable of fighting, must be fed by others because it is so helpless in every other capacity.

Click on the quote icon at the bottom right of the post

That is a pretty riduclous list.
You must disobey the U.N. to enforce the U.N.


The U.N. hasn't had the nuts to enforce a decision its made since....EVER. Along with the widespread corruption, partizanship, and general anti-American sentiment, its just about as usefull as a one legged man in an asskicking contest.

This post is complete misogynistic drivel. What you're saying is that, "because women can get pregnant, and CON NOT work while giving birth, "they don't deserve equal pay and benefits."

Positively the most disgusting display I've seen in months.

How come when you say that women deserve the same pay for the same work, you're fighting for equality, but when I point out that women get a benefit that men do not for the same job, I'm misogynistic? I'm not saying that women shouldn't get maternity leave at all, I'm saying that if they want that benefit over their male co-workers, maybe they should take a slightly lower wage or a shorter vacation. If a female co-worker gets the same pay as I do, same vacation etc. that I do, AND gets maternity leave, how is that same pay for same work? If I'm a misogynist for pointing this out, then you're a hypocrite for thinking women shouldn't recieve less pay than men, but it's okay for men to recieve less pay than women.

EDIT: It's also funny how you attack me for not agreeing with you. Gotta love that liberal tolerance!

what I find funny is that if the Constitution had allowed, both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton could easily have won third terms.... isn't that amusing.. and both of their successors where named George Bush.

being a moderate to liberal Republican, I have had to watch the GOP get taken over by the Christian Conservatives. It pisses me off actually.

When I became a Republican, back in 1980, Republicans were for a strong national defense, a realistic foreign policy, less government, and more power to the states. The only thing remaining of that now is the strong national defense part (remember, back in 1980 the Cold War was still going on).

Oh well

Of course the liberal Democrats get a little crazy now and again too, and on the extreme edge of the liberal wing of the Democrat party, there are people who are frankly living in dreamland. On the other hand, we have in our GOP our own nuts who believe that the end is coming soon and that they will be leaving with the Rapture, so who cares about the environment anyway (for those who don't remember, we had a Secretary of the Interior named James Watt back in the Reagan Administration who essentially said that).

Americans only care about things like Abortion rights (or restrictions), gay marriage, and that kind of thing when nothing really important is going on. At least I used to believe that... not so sure after the last election. Usually, the party that best shows its for continued (or returning to) good economic times, and strong defense wins.

This time around we had a New England Liberal who was just not very inspiring running against a Southern Conservative who had the advantage of having a folksy image. In addition, I can think of only ONE sitting US President who did not win reelection in wartime.. that was LBJ, who chose not to run (just as well, he died shortly after and wouldn't have finished his term in any case... poor bastard).

At times I consider switching parties, but then the Democrats do something just as dumb as the Republicans at the local level and I stick around, hoping that eventually we moderate Republicans will get our party back.

maybe one day.

How come when you say that women deserve the same pay for the same work, you're fighting for equality, but when I point out that women get a benefit that men do not for the same job, I'm misogynistic? I'm not saying that women shouldn't get maternity leave at all, I'm saying that if they want that benefit over their male co-workers, maybe they should take a slightly lower wage or a shorter vacation. If a female co-worker gets the same pay as I do, same vacation etc. that I do, AND gets maternity leave, how is that same pay for same work? If I'm a misogynist for pointing this out, then you're a hypocrite for thinking women shouldn't recieve less pay than men, but it's okay for men to recieve less pay than women.

Men and women are supposed to receive equal pay for the same job. Now, unless you are in favor of the human race dying out, I think it's a good idea to not penalize women for making the decision to reproduce.

However, I do think that men should get some time off when they have a child, assuming they mean to be actual fathers and not deadbeat dads, so that they can help to raise the child in the very beginning.

Well, he was the best conservative president we ever had. Opposed everything that the Democratic party stands for and still saved it from the Republicans for 8 years.

Then the Republicans saw the flaw in their strategy, they had to get people to be so stupid that they wouldn't even remember history a scant 4 years old.

You have a very bad sense of history.

"Clinton crashed the economy of Bush Sr. and Bush Jr saved it from him." WTF! The economy sucks. Jr.'s economy still sucks NOW after Clinton brought us 8 years of expansion and growth. And still the Republicans have managed to paint the picture in the exact negative and their followers believe it. No wonder the Republican's are so enamoured of the Ant, a creature that has no capacity for individual thought and, if capable of fighting, must be fed by others because it is so helpless in every other capacity.

The current economy is doing well. The Economy start its increase towards the end of Bush Sr.'s term and the Economy started to tank before the end of Clinton's term. By the same token Clinton's "great economy" was actually the dot-com bubble + accounting bullshit being used by corporations.

I mean really, at least tell the truth about Clinton's "wonderful" economy. Better yet, tell us what Clinton did to create it?

Here is the clue train. The Presidents/Governments control over the economy is just about nil. The only thing the Government can really do is hurt the economy.

/as a side note/ The proper example that should have been used would be a Squirrel hoarding nuts vs a Grasshopper or some such. Ants exist in essentially perfect communism no? /side note/

Wow, this thread is so far off topic it might as well be in a different language.

Men and women are supposed to receive equal pay for the same job. Now, unless you are in favor of the human race dying out, I think it's a good idea to not penalize women for making the decision to reproduce.

However, I do think that men should get some time off when they have a child, assuming they mean to be actual fathers and not deadbeat dads, so that they can help to raise the child in the very beginning.

I think people keep misunderstanding me, so let me sum this up.
Maternity leave is a benefit, which I classify in the general category of pay.
Women's groups believe that two people who do the same job deserve the same pay, regardless of gender.
If a man and woman work at the same job, and they recieve equal wages, vacations, etc. and the woman gets maternity leave as well, her pay ends up being higher than the male's.
Women's groups have no problem with this because they only support the "same work, same pay" mentality when the woman recieves less pay than the male.

If a woman wants maternity leave, she can have it, but she must understand that in order to recieve equal pay, she must give something else up. Let me repeat and reword this. If a woman intends to have maternity leave when her male co-workers cannot, she must sacrifice something else, because it is unfair if she recieves more pay than someone else who does the same job.

Why am I a misogynist for saying this?

Wow, this thread is so far off topic it might as well be in a different language.
ça ne fait rien. :p

I think people keep misunderstanding me, so let me sum this up.
Maternity leave is a benefit, which I classify in the general category of pay.
Women's groups believe that two people who do the same job deserve the same pay, regardless of gender.
If a man and woman work at the same job, and they recieve equal wages, vacations, etc. and the woman gets maternity leave as well, her pay ends up being higher than the male's.
Women's groups have no problem with this because they only support the "same work, same pay" mentality when the woman recieves less pay than the male.

If a woman wants maternity leave, she can have it, but she must understand that in order to recieve equal pay, she must give something else up. Let me repeat and reword this. If a woman intends to have maternity leave when her male co-workers cannot, she must sacrifice something else, because it is unfair if she recieves more pay than someone else who does the same job.

Why am I a misogynist for saying this?

Lots of businesses offer paternity leave now as well.

/as a side note/ The proper example that should have been used would be a Squirrel hoarding nuts vs a Grasshopper or some such. Ants exist in essentially perfect communism no? /side note/

didn't you see "A Bugs Life" ... clearly its the hardworking ants being oppressed by the evil Locusts (grasshoppers).. (just teasing of course)

You are right though... the President for the most part can only tinker with the economy in the short run... although budgetary, public works and military decisions can have a huge long range impact...

examples of Public Works transforming the US Economy.... the Federal Highway system (the freeways) which directly caused the suburban trend that continues

Budgetary trends were the Reagan deficient spending that in the short run got us out of the Stagflation cycle in the Carter years, although some changes in US energy usuage may have been more critical.... it did help us win the Cold War though, so something can be said for it.

Military decisions include the Vietnam War and budget decisions made that created huge deficits (if you looked at them in current dollars instead of the dollars at the time it still holds true) and some historians blame those budget decisions for creating a lot of the economic troubles in the 1970s (although more are now looking at the fact the the US was transistioning from an Industrial to a Service economy at about that same time).

Clinton got lucky in some respects, but some of the policies he continued from the George Bush years. However, his budgets did lead to a substantial surplus which substantially lowered interest rates which lead to the longest real estate boom (in terms of houses built and bought) in US history, as well as a general feeling of prosperity.. which in national economic terms, is more important than anything else (people who feel secure spend money, which stimulates the economy, which in turn creates jobs etc)

but Clinton was lucky in that the Cold War was over, and for a time, the US really didn't have to spend a lot on the military (as compared to previous decades)

I think people keep misunderstanding me, so let me sum this up.
Maternity leave is a benefit, which I classify in the general category of pay.
Women's groups believe that two people who do the same job deserve the same pay, regardless of gender.
If a man and woman work at the same job, and they recieve equal wages, vacations, etc. and the woman gets maternity leave as well, her pay ends up being higher than the male's.
Women's groups have no problem with this because they only support the "same work, same pay" mentality when the woman recieves less pay than the male.

If a woman wants maternity leave, she can have it, but she must understand that in order to recieve equal pay, she must give something else up. Let me repeat and reword this. If a woman intends to have maternity leave when her male co-workers cannot, she must sacrifice something else, because it is unfair if she recieves more pay than someone else who does the same job.

Why am I a misogynist for saying this?

This is misogynist because it is penalizing women for having a family, while not penalizing men for having a family.

The U.N. hasn't had the nuts to enforce a decision its made since....EVER. Along with the widespread corruption, partizanship, and general anti-American sentiment, its just about as usefull as a one legged man in an asskicking contest.

Here's an analogy.

Think of the UN as the teacher of a rowdy, and far too large for one teacher, high school class. He constantly tries to run his class calmly and properly, but the kids keep yelling and throwing things at each other. Top it all with the, freakishly big, freshman jock, who's so big and mean that he can even get lunch money from seniors, sitting in the front row. And, every assignment the jock hands in is incomplete, but with a note attached threatening an ass-kicking if he gets an F. Meanwhile the school can't do anything about it because the jock asshole's parents were rich enough to fund the school's new qymnasium as a tax writeoff.

Does that make more sense?

This is misogynist because it is penalizing women for having a family, while not penalizing men for having a family.

Penalizes? How is that?

Isn't it actually penalizing men for not being able to have Babies themselves?

Maybe it's time we also gave the man "maternity leave" when his wife is pregnant, would that make you happy?

Then perhaps you will be willing to tell me how it's ok to penalize businesses if their employees have Babies?

Regards,
Gaar

This is misogynist because it is penalizing women for having a family, while not penalizing men for having a family.

I am not trying to penalize women for having a family. You need to reread my statements. I am pointing out that if a woman recieves the same pay otherwise as her male counterpart, and then recieves maternity leave, she has a higher pay than the male. If she takes a slightly lower wage, but gets more benefits than the male, that may be the same pay, depending on how much lower and whatnot.

All I am saying is that pay is not equal if the woman gets more benefits as well as the same wage. Do you believe that women should have a higher pay than males simply because they can reproduce?

As far as maternity/paternity leave goes, do consider this:

If a man and his wife both work at the same firm, and have a child, the mother is physically incapable of working while she rears the young infant.

Her husband is perfectly capable of working.

Therefore, paternity leave is unwarranted and it would be unfair to punish the woman for having a family, her circumstances dictate that having a family removes her from the workforce for a time. A man's circumstances are such that having a family does not necessitate temporary removal from the workforce.

I am not trying to penalize women for having a family. You need to reread my statements. I am pointing out that if a woman recieves the same pay otherwise as her male counterpart, and then recieves maternity leave, she has a higher pay than the male. If she takes a slightly lower wage, but gets more benefits than the male, that may be the same pay, depending on how much lower and whatnot.

All I am saying is that pay is not equal if the woman gets more benefits as well as the same wage. Do you believe that women should have a higher pay than males simply because they can reproduce?

What if a woman never has a child while working there? You're forcing women to have a lower pay rate because of a benefit they may never actually recieve.

As far as maternity/paternity leave goes, do consider this:

If a man and his wife both work at the same firm, and have a child, the mother is physically incapable of working while she rears the young infant.

Her husband is perfectly capable of working.

Therefore, paternity leave is unwarranted and it would be unfair to punish the woman for having a family, her circumstances dictate that having a family removes her from the workforce for a time. A man's circumstances are such that having a family does not necessitate temporary removal from the workforce.

As it stands, a lot of businesses DO offer limited paternity leave.

Here's an analogy.

Think of the UN as the teacher of a rowdy, and far too large for one teacher, high school class. He constantly tries to run his class calmly and properly, but the kids keep yelling and throwing things at each other. Top it all with the, freakishly big, freshman jock, who's so big and mean that he can even get lunch money from seniors, sitting in the front row. And, every assignment the jock hands in is incomplete, but with a note attached threatening an ass-kicking if he gets an F. Meanwhile the school can't do anything about it because the jock asshole's parents were rich enough to fund the school's new qymnasium as a tax writeoff.

Does that make more sense?

Maybe the School should have just lived with the "old" Gymnasium...

What if a woman never has a child while working there? You're forcing women to have a lower pay rate because of a benefit they may never actually recieve.

How many jobs have you had? Often when you get a job (high level at least) you can choose your benefits. Maybe she can put a clause in her contract that during a year where she takes maternity leave, she has to give up a benefit.

Regardless of why she takes the maternity leave, that is six months when the woman does not work yet gets wages. Her thinking she is entitled to having six extra months off work when her male counterpart can't, for whatever reason, while recieving the same pay otherwise, is wrong, because she thinks she can have higher pay. I have no problem giving women maternity leave, so long as they give something else up. Otherwise, you're giving a higher pay to women.

As it stands, a lot of businesses DO offer limited paternity leave.

I have no problems whatsoever with a woman recieving an extra benefit, so long as her overal pay is equal to the male's.

How many jobs have you had? Often when you get a job (high level at least) you can choose your benefits. Maybe she can put a clause in her contract that during a year where she takes maternity leave, she has to give up a benefit.

Regardless of why she takes the maternity leave, that is six months when the woman does not work yet gets wages. Her thinking she is entitled to having six extra months off work when her male counterpart can't, for whatever reason, while recieving the same pay otherwise, is wrong, because she thinks she can have higher pay. I have no problem giving women maternity leave, so long as they give something else up. Otherwise, you're giving a higher pay to women.

How many jobs I've had is irrelevant. I was just playing devil's advocate.

Penalizes? How is that?

Isn't it actually penalizing men for not being able to have Babies themselves?

Maybe it's time we also gave the man "maternity leave" when his wife is pregnant, would that make you happy?

Then perhaps you will be willing to tell me how it's ok to penalize businesses if their employees have Babies?

Regards,
Gaar

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Let me put this in more personal terms. I want to have kids. When my girlfriend and I are married, and both working (because it is getting very difficult to survive on one income) I would like it if she could have a child, without jeopardizing our financial situation anymore than adding another family member already will. So, at the very least, I would like it if she could get maternity leave.
Secondarily, I would like paternity leave for my self. It will be 'our' child, not just hers, so I would like to be able to help take care of it. (The includes changing diapers etc.)

Now, as to it being unfair to business. Lets think of children as purely 'assets'. Children are future adults. This means they are future members of society. Supporting reproduction makes good long-term economic sense, just like education does. I would be fine with maternity leave being paid for by the government, but I'm sure that would be much too socialist for you.

Of course, you could also say that it's unfair to have business pay any benefits to their employees. Personally, I think a good company is one with happy employees. Happy employees work better, stay at their jobs longer, and therefore become more skillful.

I doubt it will do any good to argue with you though. :headbang:

Penalizes? How is that?

Isn't it actually penalizing men for not being able to have Babies themselves?

Maybe it's time we also gave the man "maternity leave" when his wife is pregnant, would that make you happy?

Then perhaps you will be willing to tell me how it's ok to penalize businesses if their employees have Babies?

Regards,
Gaar

I'm not sure why you don't know this, but under The Family Leave Act men can get leave for the addition of a child in the family, even an adopted child.

Having babies is a natural part of being a woamn. why should we penalize them for it? You might say that what they are taken out of the economy in maternity leaves, they are putting back into it in the form of another worker. And since is new worker is worth more then the time they take off work, perhaps women should be given a BONUS because if their contribution.

It's not like raising a kid is a walk in the park or a vacation.

I'm not sure why you don't know this, but under The Family Leave Act men can get leave for the addition of a child in the family, even an adopted child.

Leave, or Paid-Leave? Big difference.

Not very many companies give paternity leave.

I'm not sure why you don't know this, but under The Family Leave Act men can get leave for the addition of a child in the family, even an adopted child.

I don't think that's very common knowledge.

Why not consider maternity leave as a subcatagory of medical leave? Pregnancy/birth is a medical condition that applies only to women, as testicular cancer and prostate cancer apply mostly to men. If all diseases that do not occur with equal rates in both sexes were considred bonus pay and then subtracted from the salary, massively large formulas would result. An expansion of this concept would lead to different pay based on your ethnicity, sex, family history, personal medical condition...all based off of what [I]might[I]occur.



Another thought: Women have been societalyy inferior to men, and subjegated for all history. They still are. As we try to correct this, why not err on the side of over-compensating women?

The World as a Balance Sheet.

Almost poetic in a way.

Another thought: Women have been societalyy inferior to men, and subjegated for all history. They still are. As we try to correct this, why not err on the side of over-compensating women?

Anyone else think this is a bad idea? Because a woman was underpaid 50 years ago doesn't mean that a woman today should be overpaid. This only gives weight to gender discrepancy. Same goes for racial compensation. It's ridiculous. The idea should be to eliminate discrepancies altogether, and view people as humans, rather than white, black, hispanic, male, female, genderqueer. :p

Having babies is a natural part of being a woamn. why should we penalize them for it? You might say that what they are taken out of the economy in maternity leaves, they are putting back into it in the form of another worker. And since is new worker is worth more then the time they take off work, perhaps women should be given a BONUS because if their contribution.

It's not like raising a kid is a walk in the park or a vacation.
Children just aren't "new workers", they are also consumers.

BTW, in Canada, here is how it works:

http://iparentingcanada.com/resources/articles/maternityleave.htm

As of December 31, 2000, the Government of Canada extended the total length of leave for new parents to as many as 52 weeks. This doubles the amount of time a new parent can stay on benefits.

How Does It Work?

Parents need to log 600 hours of insurable earnings to qualify for the maximum of 50 weeks of maternity and/or parental benefits. This would be equivalent to approximately 30 hours of employment over a period of 20 weeks.

Leave, or Paid-Leave? Big difference.

Most companies do not pay during maternity leave.

Anyone else think this is a bad idea? Because a woman was underpaid 50 years ago doesn't mean that a woman today should be overpaid. This only gives weight to gender discrepancy. Same goes for racial compensation. It's ridiculous. The idea should be to eliminate discrepancies altogether, and view people as humans, rather than white, black, hispanic, male, female, genderqueer. :p

I agree with the latter half of your statement, and I believe I failed to comunicate what I wanted to. In the process of eliminating descripancies altogether, when a choice to give women more or less [goodthing] as we try to reach eqaulity, like the maternity leave question, it is better to err on the side of giving too much [goodthing] rather than too little.

I'm not sure why you don't know this, but under The Family Leave Act men can get leave for the addition of a child in the family, even an adopted child.

Actually, I have worked with a "man" who actually DID take this leave to Adopt a child from India. He did it twice as a matter of fact.

But it is JUST that, a "leave"...

He was not PAID while he was away from work, and was merely afforded an opportunity to regain his same position when he returned.

Is that all you are suggesting that women should receive for their Maternity Leave? If so, I could live with that.

Regards,
Gaar

Huh. So, if I understand this thread correctly-Bush turns on his constituents(sp), so the response is to copy and paste some lists from freeper sites and attack Bill Clinton and maternity leave. Huh...
1) NEVER DEFEND YOUR OWN POINTS. Don't forget this monumental Internet argument cornerstone even if you fall down a well and get amnesia and learn you're pregnant with your mother's son's evil twin. Never, under any circumstance, attempt to defend what you've said; just attack the other person's argument over and over and over until one of you dies of old age or some legislative branch agrees to shut down the Internet forever. Defending yourself or your argument is a weak act of desperation which informs your enemy that you're completely open to attack. The grizzled Internet debater will never address the validity of their previous claims, instead opting to forge ahead and stay on the offensive despite any erroneous or outright false statements they said in the past, effectively keeping the enemy on their toes. You should view Internet arguments as a really crummy fighting game: only the utter idiots bother pressing the "block / defend" button. While your enemy cowers in a corner with their arms raised above their face to futilely protect them, real men pull off complex 408-move combos that involve transforming into a fiery phoenix of doom and releasing unrelenting waves of liquid napalm Satan clown death upon them.


Not an exact fit, but kinda funny that the thread that came from (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=403586) is on the same page.

Huh. So, if I understand this thread correctly-Bush turns on his constituents(sp), so the response is to copy and paste some lists from freeper sites and attack Bill Clinton and maternity leave. Huh...

Not an exact fit, but kinda funny that the thread that came from (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=403586) is on the same page.

Isn't Free Speech GREAT!

Someone can start a thread to Bash Bush and Republicans and almost immediately we can make it a Bash Clinton and the Democrats...

And you guys say there's no advantage to living in the U.S. :D

Regards,
Gaar

Isn't Free Speech GREAT!

Someone can start a thread to Bash Bush and Republicans and almost immediately we can make it a Bash Clinton and the Democrats...

And you guys say there's no advantage to living in the U.S. :D

Regards,
Gaar
Well, as long as the sand keeps your head warm, I guess...

Well, as long as the sand keeps your head warm, I guess...

It does ok...

It's that damn Sun in my eyes while I'm looking over the Lake that's a bit irritating. Nothing a good pair of shades can't handle though. :cool:

But thanks for asking! :p

Regards,
Gaar

Well, as long as the sand keeps your head warm, I guess...

By the way...

I am all for ending these Farm Subsidies and I don't care if they are Republican constituents. These subsidies should have ended long ago and it's about time someone did something about it...

Just in case you cared.

Regards,
Gaar

I hate to do this to you conservatives (well, not really), but read and choke...

I love Republicans who vote Republican, crying about "big government" and stuff, and then whine when their own federal gravy train gets nixed...

"A Bush administration proposal that would cut billions of dollars in subsidies to big cotton growers has struck at a core GOP constituency, setting off a battle in Republican congressional ranks that pits budget cutters and prairie-state populists against traditional agricultural interests.

The Bush plan threatens an elaborate government safety net that is the handiwork of such legendary southern Democrats as Lyndon B. Johnson (Tex.) and James O. Eastland (Miss.), as well as a new generation of Republican leaders from the region. The move reflects growing pressure to hold down soaring federal deficits and a recognition that even a business woven deeply into the history, economy and politics of the South must come to terms with dramatic changes underway in global trade."

And, this paragraph is especially funny:

"The president's decision to take on the farm lobby has caught many by surprise. He gave no hint of it during his reelection campaign, which was based on winning the South and most of the upper Midwest farm states."

Believe it or not, he also didn't campaign on slashing the education budget either. Weird, how that works, huh?

Of course, these subsidies go to a small, elite, percentage of cotton growers, not the "family farm" it's supposed to protect. And really, what's the worst that can happen if these cotton subsidies are reduced?

"Without the safety net, some analysts contend, many of the 25,000 U.S. cotton growers would switch to crops such as soybeans or vegetables or quit farming."

Soybeans or vegetables? Egads!

It's amazing how the cotton cartel is being undone by its own patrons, and those who are being run out on a rail will still be ever faithful to their ruinous leadership because of their "moral values".

(all quotes provided by The Washington Post)

if you are going to cut-and-paste from Daily Kos, you need to cite them.

if you are going to cut-and-paste from Daily Kos, you need to cite them.
HAHA!
That's awesome. I hadn't begun to consider that the thread's creator cut-and-pasted that, but after looknig it up, you're right!
:D

HAHA!
That's awesome. I hadn't begun to consider that the thread's creator cut-and-pasted that, but after looknig it up, you're right!
:D
i'm a long-time reader and occasional contributor to DKos, so i notice these things :).

$70,000+; that's how much money is going to each cotton worker from our tax money...

$70,000+; that's how much money is going to each cotton worker from our tax money...

By the way...

I am all for ending these Farm Subsidies and I don't care if they are Republican constituents. These subsidies should have ended long ago and it's about time someone did something about it...

Just in case you cared.

Regards,
Gaar
Man, if you had said that 8 pages ago this you would have been able to flatten the whole thing. You may have, since it just occoured to me that I haven't double checked...

re:Bottle callin' the plagerism-d'ohness.

Not very many companies give paternity leave.

But men do not actually give birth to the baby, a woman cannot exactly just come right back into work the next day and be effective because of medical reasons after the birth. When a man has a child with a woman he is fine the next day medically, but when a man has a heart attack or stroke in the case of my father he gets a medical leave. It all makes sense if you think.

Man, if you had said that 8 pages ago this you would have been able to flatten the whole thing. You may have, since it just occoured to me that I haven't double checked...

re:Bottle callin' the plagerism-d'ohness.

No, you are correct...

That was the first time I said it.

And if I had "flattened the whole thing", I wouldn't have had an opportunity to "turn the tables", as it were, and point out the hypocrisy of the Democrats... :D

Regards,
Gaar

How to Be a Good Democrat

(This has been making the rounds on the Internet. And how true it is!)

1. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.

2. You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.

3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat than U.S. nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese Communists.

4. You have to believe that there was no art before federal funding.

5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical, documented changes in the earth's climate, and more affected by liberal yuppies driving SUV's.

6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial, but being homosexual is natural.

7. You have to be against capital punishment, but in favor of abortion-on-demand.

8. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.

9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who've never been outside of Seattle do.

10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something to earn it.

11. You have to believe that the military--not corrupt politicians--start wars.

12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution, while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.

13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.

14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to American history than Thomas Jefferson, General Robert E. Lee, or Thomas Edison.

15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides aren't.

16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is really a lady.

17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is because the right people haven't been in charge.

18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and sex-offender belong in the White House.

19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality should be constitutionally protected and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.

20. You have to believe that illegal Democratic funding by the Chinese communists is somehow in the best interest of the United States.



How to be a Good Republican

1) You have to believe that the nation's current 8-year prosperity was due to the work of Ronald Reagan and George Bush, but that yesterday's gas prices are all Clinton's fault.

2) You have to believe that those privileged from birth achieve success all on their own.

3) You have to be against government programs, but expect Social Security checks on time.

4) You have to believe that government should stay out of people's lives, yet you want government to regulate only opposite-gender marriages and what your official language should be.

5) You have to believe that pollution is ok, so long as it makes a profit.

6) You have to believe in prayer in schools, as long as you don't pray to Allah or Buddha.

7) You have to believe that only your own teenagers are still virgins.

8) You have to believe that a woman cannot be trusted with decisions about her own body, but that large multi-national corporations should have no regulation or interference whatsoever.

9) You believe Jesus loves you, and by the way, Jesus shares your hatred of AIDS victims, homosexuals, and President Clinton.

10) You have to believe that society is color-blind and growing up black in America doesn't diminish your opportunities, but you still won't vote for Alan Keyes.

11) You have to believe that it was wise to allow Ken Starr to spend $50 million dollars to attack Clinton because no other U.S. presidents have ever been unfaithful to their wives.

12) You have to believe that a waiting period for purchasing a handgun is bad because quick access to a new firearm is an important concern for all Americans.

13) You have to believe it is wise to keep condoms out of schools, because we all know if teenagers don't have condoms they won't have sex.

14) You have to believe that the ACLU is bad because they defend the Constitution, while the NRA is good because they defend the Constitution.

15) You have to believe that socialism hasn't worked anywhere, and that Europe doesn't exist.

16) You have to believe the AIDS virus is not important enough to deserve federal funding proportionate to the resulting death rate and that the public doesn't need to be educated about it, because if we just ignore it, it will go away.

17) You have to believe that biology teachers are corrupting the morals of 6th graders if they teach them the basics of human sexuality, but the Bible, which is full of sex and violence, is good reading.

18) You have to believe that Chinese communist missiles have killed more Americans than handguns, alcohol, and tobacco.

19) You have to believe that even though governments have supported the arts for 5000 years and that most of the great works of Renaissance art were paid for by governments, our government should shun any such support. After all, the rich can afford to buy their own and the poor don't need any.

20) You have to believe that the lumber from the last one percent of old growth U.S. forests is well worth the destruction of those forests and the extinction of the several species of plants and animals therein.

21) You have to believe that we should forgive and pray for Newt Gingrich, Henry Hyde, and Bob Livingston for their marital infidelities, but that Clinton should be impeached.


Solve the problem

VOTE LIBERTARIAN

How to be a good libertarian
...
actually, I don't know enough about libertarian viewpoints to make this list.
anyone else want to try?

I believe this is a MUCH better test...

http://www.lp.org/quiz/

Regards,
Gaar

Solve the problem

VOTE LIBERTARIAN
Go Libertarian Party!
http://www.lpgeorgia.com/graphics/action0002.gif