NationStates Jolt Archive

If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Would you think it was right? Why?

And don't answer with "The bible would never say that" or something like that, because this is more of a question of where YOU stand on morality.

The God I worship would not want this. See Genesis 22.
I know this is not the reply you were looking for, but changing God's will, changes the religion. Fundies would do well to take this under advisement.

If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Would you think it was right? Why?

And don't answer with "The bible would never say that" or something like that, because this is more of a question of where YOU stand on morality.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Looks to me like we have "gotten over" many of the things that are "sins" in the Bible, why would YOUR Law be any different?

For all we know, these were the things to do at the time, but we no longer look to them as our "Law" in any way, at least most of us anyway...

Regards,
Gaar

someone's already voted yes. I wonder who.
The point of this topic isn't whether or not the bible would say that, or whether god would endorse it, it is whether you would follow it.
And just to get rid of the whole mosaic law excuse, it's in the new testament.

someone's already voted yes. I wonder who.
The point of this topic isn't whether or not the bible would say that, or whether god would endorse it, it is whether you would follow it.
And just to get rid of the whole mosaic law excuse, it's in the new testament.
What is?

the verse telling you that every third child must be left on a mountaintop for the wolves.

Oh, I suppose your still talking hypothetically, then. Sorry, my mistake.

So who want's to take bets on who voted yes.
Voteearly for sure, if he's on.
Commando3, maybe. I doubt that he would vote in this poll though, it would challenge him too much.
Khata maybe?

okay, three have voted yes, any of you going to defend your position?

I voted Yes, mainly because In the story of Abraham he is going to kill his child because God told him to. Just before his death God stops him and says because he was loyal to him and was going to do as he asked he would be alowed into the kingdom of Heaven.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Did you know about these versus before this post or did you look them up for the express use of this poll?

Did you know about these versus before this post or did you look them up for the express use of this poll?

I have read through the Bible several times, but I have also noted these Scriptures in particular, just for debates such as this...

And since we have not been given Chapter and Verse of the Scripture that refers to the subject of this thread I am left to wonder what he is talking about, since I do not recall any such Scripture.

Regards,
Gaar

What a rhetorical question: Of course I would, silly!

okay, three have voted yes, any of you going to defend your position?

I will not vote in the Poll, since it doesn't have an answer that I myself would make...

I believe that there were certain things that were best for the day, but those things no longer apply to the World of today.

Regards,
Gaar

Did you know about these versus before this post or did you look them up for the express use of this poll?

Neither. He took it from a Dr. Laura show. It was passed around the net for a bit. Which is how I know about it without watching the show.

ok this is a silly question but I guess I'll try to play along, 1. I would only have two children. 2. If I messed up or had triplets I would let the illegal child be adopted by a brother or sister. This is not something god would do, the Chinese probably would however....

Hmm...

Let me think.....


Um.....


NO!

Thats an unfair question. If God asked for that, he would not be the same God we know of. He would not resemble the God of the bible at all. Therefore, the question becomes, "would you worship a God who demanded human sacrifice?". The answer a christian will give you to that question is very likely to be "No". Yet by answering No, you will misinterpret their answer to mean that those people are not willing to follow whatever God says. So, you wont really get an accurate measurement of how devoted to their God people are by asking that question because you are now asking how devoted they would be to an entirely different God. The answer you get from this poll is thus completely useless.

A lot of christians ignore various parts of the bible anyway so I doubt it would matter.

I think I'll say "Yes, because I'm a psycho". I'll abandon my third child on a mountaintop whether or not the Bible tells me to.

"Originally Posted by Urantia II
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)"

excellent questions. ill add a few:

1. how can god be jealous of other gods when there are no other gods? would a perfect god who has perfect love and undestanding get jealous or wrathful?

2. do we really have free will? if we do,why do i go to hell if i rape my sister and kill my mother? isnt punishing for unspeakable acts a violation of free will?
if i was really free to do as i please(choice)couldnt i choose to be evil? i mean,if i have to follow gods laws in order to NOT be destroyed,is that really free will?

3. its an abomination to sleep with a consenting adult if he is the same sex as me(male)but its ok to rape women and children? there are many passages in the bible where females were forced to have sex as part of their duty,and some of them were well under 18. its not ok to be gay,but its ok to be a pedophile?

4. we are supposed to love each other and forgive each other,yet its ok to kill in the name of god if they are heathens? isnt murder supposed to be a sin?


wake up people. the bible was not written by people who had your best interests in mind. it was written by selfish,aggressive,shauvenistic biggots,and it was later made worse when the best parts were removed and hidden in the vaults of the catholic church. the path to god lay within thee. seek him with all your heart and you shall find him.(i think they forgot to remove that part...oooops)

I think I'll say "Yes, because I'm a psycho". I'll abandon my third child on a mountaintop whether or not the Bible tells me to.

Next to your first and second?

A lot of of what is called the Bible today is, in fact, a lot of hokey added in the first few centuries AD, and even the parts that are actually historically 'accurate' (whatever that means) have been twisted and twisted around in the translations between Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English.

To the persons who reply that their bible would never condone this kind of action: There are a lot of worse punishments than that listed for petty or non-existant crimes. Whoever wrote those bits (and it was certainly not God) is not one who would be strongly opposed to child sacrifice.

If the bible told me to do that I'd convert to Islam.

If the bible told me to do that I'd convert to Islam.

Sure, then YOU get to kill all of the "Infidels" as well as THEIR Babies and not your own...

Unless of course they are Infidels too!

Regards,
Gaar

If this really was a verse in the bible, and I did not complete said task then either I'd go to hell for the love of my child or God would forgive me due to the overwhelming love I had for my child. I'd be hoping for the latter :D

...
There are a lot of worse punishments than that listed for petty or non-existant crimes.
...


Wait a minute, there are worse punishments for non-existant crimes? Well, if the crime does not exist, then who cares what the punishment is? No one can ever be the recipient of the punishment for a crime that does not exist.

Sure, then YOU get to kill all of the "Infidels" as well as THEIR Babies and not your own...

Unless of course they are Infidels too!

Regards,
Gaar
:rolleyes:
This shit again...

:rolleyes:
This shit again...

So it's ok to quote Scripture from the Bible and hold Christians "accountable" for them and it is not ok to do the same with the Koran?

Give me a break!

If we are going to take individual Scriptures and hold them accountable for one Religion it seems only fair to do it to ALL Religions, does it not?

Regards,
Gaar

To be honest, I'm surprised it isn't in there. :confused:

So it's ok to quote Scripture from the Bible and hold Christians "accountable" for them and it is not ok to do the same with the Koran?

Although we have still yet to see the quote from Scripture that this thread was supposedly started for...

Regards,
Gaar

It's a hypothetical. :rolleyes:
You could take the same scenario and apply it to any religion.

To be honest, I'm surprised it isn't in there. :confused:

Well he says it is...

And it very well may be, but I have been looking and have yet to find it myself.

Regards,
Gaar

Sure, then YOU get to kill all of the "Infidels" as well as THEIR Babies and not your own...

Unless of course they are Infidels too!

Regards,
Gaar

Ok quote the islamic holy book. Don't make a broard statement which just implies hate towards other religions. Believe me Catholics like myself have been guilty of this in the past.

Well it wouldn't happen in islam
"82.19": The day on which no soul shall control anything for (another) soul; and the command on that day shall be entirely Allah's.

No leaving babies on mountains for them

Well he says it is...

And it very well may be, but I have been looking and have yet to find it myself.

Regards,
Gaar

In the first post it does say "IF it was in the bible"

To be honest, I'm surprised it isn't in there. :confused:

Well, he say it is...

And it very well may be, but I have been looking and have yet to find it...

And there are only 2 references of "Wolves" in the New Testament, at least in the NIV.

BY the way, I am surprised that no one has made any reference to my NS name being Urantia. Is no one aware of what that is?

Regards,
Gaar

Ok quote the islamic holy book. Don't make a broard statement which just implies hate towards other religions.

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

URANTIA II - It's a hypothetical!! Read the posts...

Well, he say it is...
No, he says:
If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Would you think it was right? Why?

In the first post it does say "IF it was in the bible"

And later on the first page he says it's in the New Testament, so that doing away with Mosaic Law will not do as an answer.

Perhaps he is still trying to make it a hypothetical, but I read that exchange as saying that it was actually in there... But I may be wrong I guess, it wouldn't be the first time and will definitely not be the last.

Regards,
Gaar

okay, three have voted yes, any of you going to defend your position?



I'm a yes. Do what god says and i get to go to a better place.... :) ;) ;)

And later on the first page he says it's in the New Testament, so that doing away with Mosaic Law will not do as an answer.
After going back and reading that exchange on the first page, I am now officially perplexed.
:confused:

KORAN commands to kill infidels:
<snip> Islamic quote


Sorry I'm not as prepared as that but I'll give it a go.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bibl_hate1.htm

"Is the Bible free of hate passages?
Consider biblical passages which promote hatred or oppression on the basis of a person's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation:

Racist passages: There are few passages in the Bible which are openly racist. Two exceptions are:

Matthew 15:22-28 describes an incident between Jesus and a Canaanite woman.

Mark 7:25-30 describes the same incident, identifying her as Greek / Syrophenician.


She pleaded with Jesus to cure her daughter who she believed was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him "to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs." i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well -- here described as sub-humans, as dogs. Jesus was an observant Jew. In the 1st century CE such Jews often referred to Gentiles contemptuously as "dogs." It could be argued that Jesus' remark was racist. However, the country of Canaan no longer exists. So it would be difficult to make the case that the passage constitutes hate literature today. Besides, Jesus appears to have later changed his mind, and decided that the Gospel should not be restricted to Jews but was for all humans. In Matthew 28:19-20, frequently called "The Great Commission," he is quoted as saying: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..." This would seem to contradict his earlier comments to the woman that the Gospel was only for Jews."

After going back and reading that exchange on the first page, I am now officially perplexed.
:confused:
I was too, but I'm pretty sure that it was hypothetical. Either that, or he really has no clue as to what the fuck he's talking about. Then again, I've heard people say some pretty outrageous things were in the Bible just cause they swallowed some anti-Christian propaganda, hook, line, and sinker, without bothering the read the book they were out to insult.

Sorry I'm not as prepared as that but I'll give it a go.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bibl_hate1.htm

"Is the Bible free of hate passages?
Consider biblical passages which promote hatred or oppression on the basis of a person's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation:

Racist passages: There are few passages in the Bible which are openly racist. Two exceptions are:

Matthew 15:22-28 describes an incident between Jesus and a Canaanite woman.

Mark 7:25-30 describes the same incident, identifying her as Greek / Syrophenician.


She pleaded with Jesus to cure her daughter who she believed was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him "to take the children's bread and to cast it to dogs." i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well -- here described as sub-humans, as dogs. Jesus was an observant Jew. In the 1st century CE such Jews often referred to Gentiles contemptuously as "dogs." It could be argued that Jesus' remark was racist. However, the country of Canaan no longer exists. So it would be difficult to make the case that the passage constitutes hate literature today. Besides, Jesus appears to have later changed his mind, and decided that the Gospel should not be restricted to Jews but was for all humans. In Matthew 28:19-20, frequently called "The Great Commission," he is quoted as saying: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..." This would seem to contradict his earlier comments to the woman that the Gospel was only for Jews."

You snipped off the part where Jesus gave the Caaninite woman her wish, due to her faith. Jesus was to serve God's chosen with his life. He served the entire world with his death. This can be seen in Acts. pLease, if your going to insult, do it properly.

"Is the Bible free of hate passages?
Consider biblical passages which promote hatred or oppression on the basis of a person's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation:

No it isn't, but that IS MY Point!

I wouldn't be doing this "quoting Scripture" thing of Islam and the Koran if some of them weren't doing it to the Bible. My point is to show that it is futile to point to actual Scripture from ANY Religion and hold its followers accountable in present day terms... And I mean ALL OF THEM!

If they will stop doing it, so will I... But until then, I give as well as I get!

Regards,
Gaar

You snipped off the part where Jesus gave the Caaninite woman her wish, due to her faith. Jesus was to serve God's chosen with his life. He served the entire world with his death. This can be seen in Acts. pLease, if your going to insult, do it properly.

didn't reference the bible so didn't know it was there. They take what they want and leave out what they don't want to see. This is why I referenced the source because the source does not mention this fact and as I'm not familiar with the bible I could not have known this. The site seemed pretty neutral. Ahh well.
But of course we know everyone who quotes the bible or the islamic holy book as read it page to page :rolleyes:

Edit: and no I didn't snip any thing check the source

Simple answer, no way in hell. I'd just look at this god-thing and tell him "up yours, mate."

No it isn't, but that IS MY Point!

I wouldn't be doing this "quoting Scripture" thing of Islam and the Koran if some of them weren't doing it to the Bible. My point is to show that it is futile to point to actual Scripture from ANY Religion and hold its followers accountable in present day terms... And I mean ALL OF THEM!

If they will stop doing it, so will I... But until then, I give as well as I get!

Regards,
Gaar

Then my friend we are the same. I like to critisize my own religion first though

didn't reference the bible so didn't know it was there. They take what they want and leave out what they don't want to see. This is why I referenced the source because the source does not mention this fact and as I'm not familiar with the bible I could not have known this. The site seemed pretty neutral. Ahh well.
But of course we know everyone who quotes the bible or the islamic holy book as read it page to page :rolleyes:

'S all right. No harm, no foul.

'S all right. No harm, no foul.

Cool :)

But of course we know everyone who quotes the bible or the islamic holy book as read it page to page :rolleyes:

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I have been through the Bible, page by page, more than once...

As for the Koran, not entirely but quite a bit of it.

Regards,
Gaar

Then my friend we are the same. I like to critisize my own religion first though

I'm already getting plenty of that around here from the "opposition", just returning the favor as it were...

:)

Regards,
Gaar

Some people don't get it. Don't even try to debate god. The first message he gave was not to question his existance. In other words don't think/use reason/debate. There is no point in debating since the point of faith in god is to not debate.

Sorry I'm not as prepared as that but I'll give it a go.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bibl_hate1.htm

"Is the Bible free of hate passages?
Consider biblical passages which promote hatred or oppression on the basis of a person's race, religion, gender or sexual orientation:

Racist passages: There are few passages in the Bible which are openly racist. Two exceptions are:

Matthew 15:22-28 describes an incident between Jesus and a Canaanite woman.

Mark 7:25-30 describes the same incident, identifying her as Greek / Syrophenician.


She pleaded with Jesus to cure her daughter who she believed was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she.

The important word here is He. Jesus himself was not sent for this purpose, that was His purpose for training the followers. Hence we have the Great Commission as it is called.

If the Gospel were only for Jews, we would still not have it today, for in our generation, most believers are not of Jewish descent (except, of course in the fact that they are descended from the first humans).

You have to be careful and wary. People brandish the Bible around, and you have to be careful, and test the words coming from their mouth. Many people trying to lead people away from the Bible are very familiar with the Bible. In the same way, Christians should ensure they know the Bible and make themselves familiar with the devices the enemy uses.

It makes sense, know your enemy. Then you will better be able to stand up and defend against things such as this.

The important word here is He. Jesus himself was not sent for this purpose, that was His purpose for training the followers. Hence we have the Great Commission as it is called.

If the Gospel were only for Jews, we would still not have it today, for in our generation, most believers are not of Jewish descent (except, of course in the fact that they are descended from the first humans).

You have to be careful and wary. People brandish the Bible around, and you have to be careful, and test the words coming from their mouth. Many people trying to lead people away from the Bible are very familiar with the Bible. In the same way, Christians should ensure they know the Bible and make themselves familiar with the devices the enemy uses.

It makes sense, know your enemy. Then you will better be able to stand up and defend against things such as this.
Cause christians are at war. They are at war with reason. The enemy is not the people who use reason. The enemy is yourself. You must struggle to stick to your faith, you don't have to struggle with other people than yourself.
There is no point in warfare with other people. If you don't think other people can't do anything to your faith. And you can't give faith to the people who think.

If you don't think other people can't do anything to your faith. And you can't give faith to the people who think.

So YOU don't believe that someone may read these discussion that may not have decided what to believe or even read the Bible and be inspired to do just that?

Doesn't the Bible tell us to 'preach the good news to all the Nations'?

Why is it YOU believe that discussing our Religion with others is somehow questioning it?

Regards,
Gaar

So YOU don't believe that someone may read these discussion that may not have decided what to believe or even read the Bible and be inspired to do just that?

Doesn't the Bible tell us to 'preach the good news to all the Nations'?

Why is it YOU believe that discussing our Religion with others is somehow questioning it?

Regards,
Gaar
It is pointless because you don't discuss with the same base, axioms or hypotheses. We don't talk the same language at all.
There is a point in talking about religion to children because you can give faith to children, but not to people who use reason.
When you talk about discussing, you mean teaching them your faith, but when I talk about discussing, I mean using logic and reason to reach the truth.

There are documented cases of wolves raising children and would love my kids to be raised by such wonderful creatures. :)

Nope, I wouldnt do anything harmful to my children if God asked me to. If that means he would "Cast me out" because I chose not to, then so be it.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
THese are old levitical law that does not apply to christians, we can eat anything. Jesus said that the greatest commandments are Honor the lord thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself. if you follow those, everything falls into place. Laws in the old testament, unless simply moral, do not apply for the most part. The rules, laws laid down in the NT are more applicable to this day and age.

THese are old levitical law that does not apply to christians, we can eat anything. Jesus said that the greatest commandments are Honor the lord thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself. if you follow those, everything falls into place. Laws in the old testament, unless simply moral, do not apply for the most part. The rules, laws laid down in the NT are more applicable to this day and age.

Lets see you explain that to VoteEarly.

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

And here are some nifty Jesus quotes:


Matthew 10:34-36: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


Matthew 13:41,42: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 16:25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Matthew 19:29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


Matthew 23:9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.


Luke 12:46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


Luke 14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

THese are old levitical law that does not apply to christians, we can eat anything. Jesus said that the greatest commandments are Honor the lord thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself. if you follow those, everything falls into place. Laws in the old testament, unless simply moral, do not apply for the most part. The rules, laws laid down in the NT are more applicable to this day and age.

Then perhaps you might explain how Jesus himself says he does not come to do away with the Old Laws but to add to them to bring the rest of man into the fold?

okay, three have voted yes, any of you going to defend your position?

Perhaps they figure now that we've driven most wolves in the United States to extinction then it doesn't really matter.

So THAT's why they're so against environmentalism!

Then perhaps you might explain how Jesus himself says he does not come to do away with the Old Laws but to add to them to bring the rest of man into the fold?

Simple. He's like any other lying politician. :D

Actually, I think that since he specifically does away with the dietary laws, the need for circumsision, and the requirement to wash your hands before eating (see, he IS a dirty hippy) then I would be more inclined to interpret the verse, which I think goes something like "I have not come to remove the law but to fulfull the whole of it," or something like that, as "People are getting to hung up on technicalities and not paying attention to the important parts of God's will like justice and mercy. They're too hung up on stoning unfaithful wives to death, not because God says so, but because they're angry hateful people who think they have a good excuse to do vile evil things."

By this interpretation one could see that we should embrace the liberal politics that the totality of Jesus' teachings imply rather than selected quotes that justify one's inherent drive to be a complete bastard.

Thats an unfair question. If God asked for that, he would not be the same God we know of. He would not resemble the God of the bible at all. Therefore, the question becomes, "would you worship a God who demanded human sacrifice?". The answer a christian will give you to that question is very likely to be "No". Yet by answering No, you will misinterpret their answer to mean that those people are not willing to follow whatever God says. So, you wont really get an accurate measurement of how devoted to their God people are by asking that question because you are now asking how devoted they would be to an entirely different God. The answer you get from this poll is thus completely useless.
I have to agree with LazyHippies, here. Additionally, I'll add that if God told me to kill one of my own children without apparent cause (and assuming that I ever have children), then I'd have to wonder if it was really God talking to me.

My name is not Abraham.

A lot of of what is called the Bible today is, in fact, a lot of hokey added in the first few centuries AD, and even the parts that are actually historically 'accurate' (whatever that means) have been twisted and twisted around in the translations between Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English.
Another good point. God is perfect and the word of God is perfect. However, humans are not perfect and the word of God has been through human hands. Thus, I don't trust every single line in the Bible to be accurate.

someone's already voted yes. I wonder who.
The point of this topic isn't whether or not the bible would say that, or whether god would endorse it, it is whether you would follow it.
And just to get rid of the whole mosaic law excuse, it's in the new testament.
There's a line in the New Testament about killing every third by leaving it on a mountaintop for the wolves? Scripture citation, please. Where can we find this?

It's a hypothetical. :rolleyes:
You could take the same scenario and apply it to any religion.In the first post it does say "IF it was in the bible""Cyrian space" claims in Posts #5 and #7 of this topic that such a requirement exists in the New Testament. He's been asked for a scripture citation, but hasn't provided one.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

Thats an unfair question. If God asked for that, he would not be the same God we know of. He would not resemble the God of the bible at all. Therefore, the question becomes, "would you worship a God who demanded human sacrifice?". The answer a christian will give you to that question is very likely to be "No". Yet by answering No, you will misinterpret their answer to mean that those people are not willing to follow whatever God says. So, you wont really get an accurate measurement of how devoted to their God people are by asking that question because you are now asking how devoted they would be to an entirely different God. The answer you get from this poll is thus completely useless.

However, God did ask Isiah to sacrifice his first born and even though he didn't have him go through with it, he did ask for it.

If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Would you think it was right? Why?

And don't answer with "The bible would never say that" or something like that, because this is more of a question of where YOU stand on morality.
THere is a difference between God's words to Isrealites and others.

If God today asked through his prophets than yes, yes I would. But seeing as there is only one prophet alive today(hint he is in the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saint) and which moutrain. After all, he wouldn't go and say the closest because what if there are two mountains near.

He would have to clarify: like Rocky Moutains or something.

And secondly, what would he asked this for, I wouldpersonally ask of God this question. If it was a act of faith, than sure.

And do the wolves have to eat the child, can the child carry weapons, and/or can I stand by and root for the kid?

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire -- something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

See, this shows that the question this thread is based on is contrary to the nature of the Christian God.

Fortunately that isn't a choice I have to worry about. The Bible doesn't command that and I have no children to date anyway... If God commanded me to do something directly, like He did Abram with Isaac, I'd like to think that my faith in God would be sufficient to carry it through, but until faced with such a decision, it is hard to know for sure.

"And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomini patri, et fili, spiritus sancti."

"How far are we going to take this?"
"The question is not how far. The question is, do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as is needed?"

"When I vest my flashing sword, and my hand takes hold in judgment, I will take vengeance upon mine enemies, and I will repay those who haze me. Oh Lord, raise me to Thy right hand and count me among Thy saints."

All the answers you seek lie within these lines.
*bows his head deeply*

I voted No, I don't believe in the bible.

But I would rather: No, I'm not a psycho.

Okay, I'm Cyrian Space, but I'm posting under a puppet cause I don't have time to re login.

The entire thing was hypothetical. As far as I know, no such scripture exists. I just said that it hypothetically existed in the new testament so people couldn't say "well we don't do any of these other things in the OT anymore either"
The question was posted to find out if people are really following the bible, or just use the bible as a reason to do what they want.

1......the Bible doesn't say that anywhere.

2.....Even if it did, God always provides a way out of a situation that against His nature.

3.......Old Testament writings have been fulfilled in Jesus. Therefore the "old law" has been brought to fruition with the "new law".

Okay, I'm Cyrian Space, but I'm posting under a puppet cause I don't have time to re login.

The entire thing was hypothetical. As far as I know, no such scripture exists. I just said that it hypothetically existed in the new testament so people couldn't say "well we don't do any of these other things in the OT anymore either"
The question was posted to find out if people are really following the bible, or just use the bible as a reason to do what they want.

Your hypothetical question doesn't really work. Its like asking people if they'd still like pizza if it was a brussel sprout.

1......the Bible doesn't say that anywhere.

He said it was hypothetical....[cont at point 3]...

2.....Even if it did, God always provides a way out of a situation that against His nature.

I refuse to touch this and hope everyone else.

3.......Old Testament writings have been fulfilled in Jesus. Therefore the "old law" has been brought to fruition with the "new law".

... He also said it was in the New Testement.

Nope. I don't believe on book of lies. Religion is opium to masses. :sniper:

okay, three have voted yes, any of you going to defend your position?

What makes you think that everyone that voted yes did it genuinly?

Well said, Xeraph.

Jesus did say that not a letter would be removed from the old law. And yet he prounounced all foods clean (Mark 7v19). The reason he can do this is because all the "old law" (Mosaic law) points to Jesus; it's all a foreshadowing of him...a bit like a preview. So the cleanness, the restriction on foods, and so on, are all reflections of God's perfection; it was true then and is true now that you can't enter God's presence in an unclean state. Not eating foods was, in a way, Israel's way of reflecting God to the rest of the world, and so partly fulfilling God's promise that Abraham's children (Israel) would be a blessing to all nations.

But now we don't reflect God's perfection in how we conduct ourselves, but who we put our faith in. Since Jesus came, and died to take the punishment for our rebellion against God, it's not primarily our regulations and rituals that reflect God's goodness, but his Spirit living in our hearts (also referred to as "writing the law on our hearts"), helping us to understand his commands in the Bible and transforming us into good reflections of him. There are some things in the old testament law that are non-negotiable, however, because, for example, they're "detestable". This includes murder, adultery, stealing, homosexuality, making idols of things apart from God, bestiality etc. These are "sins" against God (and against others).

On the way to Emmaus, after rising from the dead, Jesus talks to two people. "He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'" (Luke 24v44)

To answer the question about other gods..."other gods" are things we put in place of God. So money can be a god if our lives place the gaining of money above our relationship with God. Sport can be a god if we're more obsessed with Sport than with God. Virtually anything can be a god which replaces God as the centre of our lives; this includes ourselves. When the Old Testament refers to making gods, often it refers to inanimate things, though they may be given names (Baal was the name of the supposed fertility "gods" but was shown to be entirely imaginary at a "confrontation" of the Baal worshippers with the true God).

And finally, I voted that I would, simply because the Bible is God speaking to us, and if it was THAT clear, then it would have to be obeyed. If it's unclear, you look at the rest of the Bible, and see what else you can find out about its likelihood.

But then, if that was in the OT, billions of people would have already done it, and so it wouldn't be that abnormal. If it was in the NT...millions or billions of people would be doing it today, though many might not know why (a bit like, say, Easter or baptism).

I voted No, I don't believe in the bible.

But I would rather: No, I'm not a psycho.

Or how about: No, I'm not a mindless automaton.

Hell no. I take the bible as a nice philosophy text, and same for the texts of all other religions. No text is the word of god (or whatever). Words are a construct of humans.
Any so-called god demanding me to show my faith by killing (anyone, much less my child) hasn't enough faith in me to deserve my faith.

Or how about: No, I'm not a mindless automaton.

Hey I like flaming. It's so much fun. Wheeeeeee! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :gundge:

I most certainly would not. I would, however, chuck a few bibles off said mountain... While they're on fire.

Yup i would, theres plenty of weird things in the bible. Will one extra make a difference?

Then again i can bet you, most families would try and go only to have 2 kids in the family then....

I most certainly would not. I would, however, chuck a few bibles off said mountain... While they're on fire.
See my previous post.

No, I don't believe in the bible

Erm, how can people not believe in the Bible? Everyone knows the Bible exists... the question is do you believe everything it says?

Excuse me for being pedantic, but this one of the few times I can make a smart comment :p

Oh, my post was meant to be a flame now, was it?

It really pisses me off when bible pushers call people trolls just because they don't like what they're seeing.

I say kill all humens and let god decide what to do with them :)

I`l get up in my locel church tower acompenyed by a :sniper:

So long people ;)

Oh, my post was meant to be a flame now, was it?

It really pisses me off when bible pushers call people trolls just because they don't like what they're seeing.

I'm hardly what you would call a Bible pusher, but I think saying your going to ignite someones holy book is just a tad inflammatory. To clarify, I am a Christian. However, I don't push my religion on anyone.

I'm sorry if you don't exactly like what I said, but you're gonna have to deal with it.

Fortunately that isn't a choice I have to worry about. The Bible doesn't command that and I have no children to date anyway... If God commanded me to do something directly, like He did Abram with Isaac, I'd like to think that my faith in God would be sufficient to carry it through, but until faced with such a decision, it is hard to know for sure.

Jesus may not have put it exactly the way the initiator of this thread put it, but according to the bible, Jesus did say that one way of earning everlasting life is to abandon your entire family:

Matthew 19:29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

So how about it - have you abandoned your family yet?

I'm hardly what you would call a Bible pusher, but I think saying your going to ignite someones holy book is just a tad inflammatory. To clarify, I am a Christian. However, I don't push my religion on anyone.

But, I can feel you pushing. puuuuushing.

I'm sorry if you don't exactly like what I said, but you're gonna have to deal with it.


So you would not mind, if i felt the worlds problems would be solved by setting fire to Atheists and then throwing them off a cliff?

Hey, to each his own.

Jesus may not have put it exactly the way the initiator of this thread put it, but according to the bible, Jesus did say that one way of earning everlasting life is to abandon your entire family:

Matthew 19:29: And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

So how about it - have you abandoned your family yet?

Er, I don't know if you're being sarky or not, but it's a fairly good point (I've replaced it with the New International Version so we can understand it better...). Jesus says time and again that there is nothing more important than our attitude towards God; we need to be open handed with the things he gives us. With people, of course, we need to be loving, but not hold on to them as more important than God. I think the crucial point is "for my sake".

Sure, then YOU get to kill all of the "Infidels" as well as THEIR Babies and not your own...

Unless of course they are Infidels too!

Regards,
Gaar

On the contrary. I am close friends with many muslims and none of them have ever tried to kill me or my extended family. One of them even came to a Catholic mass with me and *gasp* didn't let off a bomb.

I get annoyed with people who bash Catholicism and Christianity in General, but bashing other religions without properly understanding them is just as bad. Islam may, these days, have a particularly large number of firebrand clerics who preach death and destruction, but Christianity and Judaism have all had their fair share. If I really wanted to, which I don't, I could go and rip out some nice biblical quotes illustrating just how damned unpleasant the Bible is in parts.

Er, I don't know if you're being sarky or not, but it's a fairly good point (I've replaced it with the New International Version so we can understand it better...). Jesus says time and again that there is nothing more important than our attitude towards God; we need to be open handed with the things he gives us. With people, of course, we need to be loving, but not hold on to them as more important than God. I think the crucial point is "for my sake".

In other words, Jesus wanted to be put on an equal (or higher) level with God? Kind of like the "King of Babylon/Lucifer" being spoken of in Isaiah 14?

Isaiah 14:12-19: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

I mean - wow! It's exactly as if the gospel writers took most of their material for the development of their main character right from this passage - wouldn't you agree? It's especially telling when Jesus admits near the end of Revelations that he is the Morning Star (aka, Lucifer)!

Revelations 22:16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

A revelation indeed! M. Night Shyamalan's got nothing on the bible!

If I really wanted to, which I don't, I could go and rip out some nice biblical quotes illustrating just how damned unpleasant the Bible is in parts.

I already tried that a couple of pages back - oddly enough, no one seems to have paid even the least amount of attention to it. Funny how blind people can be to what they don't want to see...

In other words, Jesus wanted to be put on an equal (or higher) level with God? Kind of like the "King of Babylon/Lucifer" being spoken of in Isaiah 14?

Isaiah 14:12-19: How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

I mean - wow! It's exactly as if the gospel writers took most of their material for the development of their main character right from this passage - wouldn't you agree? It's especially telling when Jesus admits near the end of Revelations that he is the Morning Star (aka, Lucifer)!

Firstly, Jesus clearly identified himself as the Son of God. This can quite clearly be seen in John's gospel and the 7 "I AM" statements that he uses to describe himself: "I AM the resurrection and the life"; "I AM the way, and the truth, and the life"; "I AM the good shepherd"; "I AM the door"; "I AM the true vine"; "I AM the bread of life"; "I AM the light of the world" (my capitalization). However, this was seen in those days as a self-identification as God, whose name to the Israelites was YHWH, or Yaweh, which means "I am what I am" (or "I will be what I will be") in Hebrew.

Moreover, he performs miracles; he drives out demons (showing he can't be the devil or in the name of the devil because "a house divided against itself will fall" Matthew 9v34ff); he is identified as the Messiah, or the Christ, who was predicted previously; he fulfills hundreds of messianic prophecies.

Now, if you're claiming he was the devil, and Lucifer, then I can't see any of his teaching geared towards lucifer or away from God. He claims that you must honour and love God with all your heart, and all your soul and all your strength!

Secondly, the passage quoted from Isaiah is not usually accepted to be referring to Lucifer. The KJV, although usually a great version, is unusual in using the term "Lucifer"; in almost every other version it's "Day Star", which is literally what the Hebrew means. Lucifer was from the Latin Vulgate, and even then it was probably because the passage refers to Babylon and its king. Babylon was another foreshadowing; it was to capture and take Israel, a foreshadowing of the beast, or the beast of Lucifer, or Lucifer himself, at the end of the world, attacking God's people (the "new Israel"---God's new chosen people, including the old Israel).

Does this make sense? The point is, that Jesus WAS on a level with God, because he was God!

Firstly, Jesus clearly identified himself as the Son of God. This can quite clearly be seen in John's gospel and the 7 "I AM" statements that he uses to describe himself: "I AM the resurrection and the life"; "I AM the way, and the truth, and the life"; "I AM the good shepherd"; "I AM the door"; "I AM the true vine"; "I AM the bread of life"; "I AM the light of the world" (my capitalization). However, this was seen in those days as a self-identification as God, whose name to the Israelites was YHWH, or Yaweh, which means "I am what I am" (or "I will be what I will be") in Hebrew.

Moreover, he performs miracles; he drives out demons (showing he can't be the devil or in the name of the devil because "a house divided against itself will fall" Matthew 9v34ff); he is identified as the Messiah, or the Christ, who was predicted previously; he fulfills hundreds of messianic prophecies.

Now, if you're claiming he was the devil, and Lucifer, then I can't see any of his teaching geared towards lucifer or away from God. He claims that you must honour and love God with all your heart, and all your soul and all your strength!

Secondly, the passage quoted from Isaiah is not usually accepted to be referring to Lucifer. The KJV, although usually a great version, is unusual in using the term "Lucifer"; in almost every other version it's "Day Star", which is literally what the Hebrew means. Lucifer was from the Latin Vulgate, and even then it was probably because the passage refers to Babylon and its king. Babylon was another foreshadowing; it was to capture and take Israel, a foreshadowing of the beast, or the beast of Lucifer, or Lucifer himself, at the end of the world, attacking God's people (the "new Israel"---God's new chosen people, including the old Israel).

Does this make sense? The point is, that Jesus WAS on a level with God, because he was God!
:fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle: :fluffle:

On the contrary. I am close friends with many muslims and none of them have ever tried to kill me or my extended family. One of them even came to a Catholic mass with me and *gasp* didn't let off a bomb.

I get annoyed with people who bash Catholicism and Christianity in General, but bashing other religions without properly understanding them is just as bad. Islam may, these days, have a particularly large number of firebrand clerics who preach death and destruction, but Christianity and Judaism have all had their fair share. If I really wanted to, which I don't, I could go and rip out some nice biblical quotes illustrating just how damned unpleasant the Bible is in parts.

All we need is tolerance and understanding, not too much to ask from this mature world. Ok so that was a bit of an understatement

i shoulda picked no...i jus had to be insane...

"gods" are an alien race that created humans and dumped them on the planet earth just for fun!

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)This post was wonderful and deserves a thread all it's own, just to find out what the fundementalists think?

Something that most semi-intelligent Christians do is kind of push the entire old testament to the side. They realize that it is nowhere near the actual word of god thanks to the many translations done over the centuries.

Most Christians tend to follow the new testament much closer. Then there are some who claim to follow everything, but really follow only some rules. They pick and choose religion. This is why I despise organized religion. Most just twist the words to fit their needs.

Well, Rarne, I'd like to take you up on that "challenge". The whole Bible is the word of God by his Spirit we can understand it (and only by his Spirit). I don't throw away the OT...

If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Ok, I need a ruling on this one before I answer.

Do you mean third child overall from those I fathered, the third child me and this partner have together, or the third from the combined household of the two step families? (God has to be more specific about these things)


Using options 1 and 3 would mean my 17 year old son and he's almost grown and hasn't shamed us yet, so we're inclined to keep him around. Sorry God, pick another sacrifice.

Using option 2 would mean our 12 year old daughter who has just hit puberty and has all the attitude you can stuff into a Junior high school student, her we might consider...... of course just to be right with the lord ;) .

Ok, I need a ruling on this one before I answer.

Do you mean third child overall from those I fathered, the third child me and this partner have together, or the third from the combined household of the two step families? (God has to be more specific about these things)


Using options 1 and 3 would mean my 17 year old son and he's almost grown and hasn't shamed us yet, so we're inclined to keep him around. Sorry God, pick another sacrifice.

Using option 2 would mean our 12 year old daughter who has just hit puberty and has all the attitude you can stuff into a Junior high school student, her we might consider...... of course just to be right with the lord ;) .


Well if it makes you feel any better, the way he worded it, is that you abandon him/her as a baby. :D

Doesn't that make you feel better? :p

I would look into the deeper meaning of the words and determine the basis behind such a line. In no way would I sacrifice my child, nor would God ever ask me to do so.

I would look into the deeper meaning of the words and determine the basis behind such a line. In no way would I sacrifice my child, nor would God ever ask me to do so.
How do you know? what is the basis for this decision? just because you dont wish for him to ask you to do so

If I really wanted to, which I don't, I could go and rip out some nice biblical quotes illustrating just how damned unpleasant the Bible is in parts.

You mean like I ALREADY HAVE?!?!

Thank you fo making my point for me though...

Like I have been saying, we can look at Scripture from the different Religions and find these types of thing all day about each.

So for one side to start an attack on this basis, without aknowledging the same in their own is a bit hypocritical, is it not?

I am a Christian and I have posted passages from the Bible as well as from the Koran that are very similar in what they espouse. So please don't accuse me of just bashing Muslims until you have read the WHOLE of my argument on the matter.

I am an equal opportunity basher! ;)

Regards,
Gaar

How do you know? what is the basis for this decision? just because you dont wish for him to ask you to do so

Because God would never ask such a thing, pure and simple. Therefor, if I were asked, I would assume it from someone other than God and therefor not follow it

Because God would never ask such a thing, pure and simple. Therefor, if I were asked, I would assume it from someone other than God and therefor not follow it
He has asked before you know ... if you are Christian

You just choose to project what you think on an entity that should be theoretically beyond your comprehension

wishes do not make truth

Firstly, Jesus clearly identified himself as the Son of God. This can quite clearly be seen in John's gospel and the 7 "I AM" statements that he uses to describe himself: "I AM the resurrection and the life"; "I AM the way, and the truth, and the life"; "I AM the good shepherd"; "I AM the door"; "I AM the true vine"; "I AM the bread of life"; "I AM the light of the world" (my capitalization). However, this was seen in those days as a self-identification as God, whose name to the Israelites was YHWH, or Yaweh, which means "I am what I am" (or "I will be what I will be") in Hebrew.

You are begging the question here - Jesus is God because the bible says that he identified himself as such. If I identify myself as God, does that, in fact, make me God too?

Moreover, he performs miracles; he drives out demons (showing he can't be the devil or in the name of the devil because "a house divided against itself will fall" Matthew 9v34ff); he is identified as the Messiah, or the Christ, who was predicted previously; he fulfills hundreds of messianic prophecies.

More fallacious reasoning. First of all, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:9, signs and wonders can indeed come from Satan. Oddly enough, it seems they were actually on the lookout for an antichrist who would come along and perform wondrous miracles, thereby leading even the very elect astray. Think about that for a moment.

Additionally, who says that if Jesus drove out a few demons in order to put on a good show for the audience, that Satan's house would fall? If this little show convinced a larger number of people that Jesus was God incarnate (given the premise that he was really Satan or an agent of Satan), then it seems that giving up one tortured soul was a pretty shrewd investment on his part - wouldn't you agree?

Now, if you're claiming he was the devil, and Lucifer, then I can't see any of his teaching geared towards lucifer or away from God. He claims that you must honour and love God with all your heart, and all your soul and all your strength!

While implying that he was God, of course. Back on page 5, I think it was, I listed a number of questionable statements Jesus allegedly made (e.g., admonishing his would-be disciples to hate and abandon their families, that his mission in life was to divide families, etc.). I don't know about you, but none of those statements seem very God-like to me.

Secondly, the passage quoted from Isaiah is not usually accepted to be referring to Lucifer. The KJV, although usually a great version, is unusual in using the term "Lucifer"; in almost every other version it's "Day Star", which is literally what the Hebrew means. Lucifer was from the Latin Vulgate, and even then it was probably because the passage refers to Babylon and its king. Babylon was another foreshadowing; it was to capture and take Israel, a foreshadowing of the beast, or the beast of Lucifer, or Lucifer himself, at the end of the world, attacking God's people (the "new Israel"---God's new chosen people, including the old Israel).

Does this make sense? The point is, that Jesus WAS on a level with God, because he was God!

You've got your proof texts and I've got mine. It just so happens that we don't see eye to eye on which of those texts was actually pointing to Jesus.

Okay - I don't really think the Old Testament was predicting the coming of Jesus. What I really think is that the gospel writers, for reasons of their own, used some pretty questionable passages from which to craft their deceptive "Christ". Christians have chosen not to see this for their own reasons.

If the bible clearly stated that the third child in any family must be left at the top of a mountain for the wolves, and this was the direct will of God, would you do it? Would you think it was right? Why?

And don't answer with "The bible would never say that" or something like that, because this is more of a question of where YOU stand on morality.



"Religion is the opium of the masses" -- Karl Marx


Which in my opinion is about the only thing of value Marx ever said! :D

Because God would never ask such a thing, pure and simple. Therefor, if I were asked, I would assume it from someone other than God and therefor not follow it
so you believe your moral judgment is superior to God, then? you apparently believe that you can evaluate the morality of a given action better than God can, since you state that you would choose to ignore a command God gave you that conflicted with your personal values. if you already know what you believe is Good and Evil, why do you need God? do you just like feeling as though somebody powerful agrees with your values?

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.

Friedrich Nietzsche

After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.
Friedrich Nietzsche

The bible also says stone your kid if he back sasses ya, I sure as hell wouldn't do that. If it really was commanded by God then I am afraid he would have to forgive me for my disobedience.

so you believe your moral judgment is superior to God, then? you apparently believe that you can evaluate the morality of a given action better than God can, since you state that you would choose to ignore a command God gave you that conflicted with your personal values. if you already know what you believe is Good and Evil, why do you need God? do you just like feeling as though somebody powerful agrees with your values?

You may need to read my statement again. I already explained why I would not answer such a call, because I would be convinced it was someone or something other than God who gave me the command.

You may need to read my statement again. I already explained why I would not answer such a call, because I would be convinced it was someone or something other than God who gave me the command.
Why? what reason would you have to believe that it is not god?

As I have already explained, it is because God would not ask me to do such a thing. First of all, if it were really nessissary to kill the child, he'd do so himself, he would never ask me to do such a thing.

As I have already explained, it is because God would not ask me to do such a thing. First of all, if it were really nessissary to kill the child, he'd do so himself, he would never ask me to do such a thing.
And how do you derive that belief in god? what do you base your perception of god on?

Believe it or not, scientific meathod. If you'd like to learn more about my method, please read my book. I'm about half-way through it's production

Believe it or not, scientific meathod. If you'd like to learn more about my method, please read my book. I'm about half-way through it's production
So you are basing his existence off the scientific method or his commands/wishes/personality?

If so how do you reduce the number of variables in each individual study you conduct?

Is your hypothesis variable? Or is it like so many of the others out there static (which makes it non scientific)?

Actually, it is variable, and doesn't so much confirm God's exsistence as it does the exsistence of a divne power. The fact that I have come to the conclusion that it is God, as I mention in the book, is really a linguistic truth rather than an absolute. The fact is I don't know what it is I proved to have exsisted. It could be Vishnu, Budah, Allah, etc.

The variables were slowly extracted one by one, starting with the basic Decartian prinicibles of exsistence.

Actually, it is variable, and doesn't so much confirm God's exsistence as it does the exsistence of a divne power. The fact that I have come to the conclusion that it is God, as I mention in the book, is really a linguistic truth rather than an absolute. The fact is I don't know what it is I proved to have exsisted. It could be Vishnu, Budah, Allah, etc.

The variables were slowly extracted one by one, starting with the basic Decartian prinicibles of exsistence.
Ok lets say you prove he exists … how do you jump from his existence to impressing a personality on him … therefore being able to determine what he would want from you?

Because if God exsists as the impression on my mind that was placed there through divine power, and such an impression is that of a loving and caring creator, then my understanding of him is the desired one.

Because if God exsists as the impression on my mind that was placed there through divine power, and such an impression is that of a loving and caring creator, then my understanding of him is the desired one.
How do you know it was placed there through devine power? maybe it is devil trickery just telling you what you desire to hear

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

etc., etc., etc.


Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law during his life, as he said. The Mosaic Law only existed to show that no one is able to live a good enough life to get into Heaven. The Israelites before the time of Christ didn't get into Heaven by sacrificing bulls and keeping every jot and tittle of the Law. They did it by faith, looking forward to a Messiah. We do the same thing today, only the Messiah has already come, and we look backward in faith. Keeping the Law was only an outward way to show their faith to the world. Today we have different ways to outwardly show faith, specifically baptism and the keeping of the Lord's Supper (or Communion, if you prefer).

To address the poll question, I answered yes, because God requires and deserves absolute, immediate obedience, no questions asked. However, I would also like to state that it's an unfair question.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law during his life, as he said. The Mosaic Law only existed to show that no one is able to live a good enough life to get into Heaven. The Israelites before the time of Christ didn't get into Heaven by sacrificing bulls and keeping every jot and tittle of the Law. They did it by faith, looking forward to a Messiah. We do the same thing today, only the Messiah has already come, and we look backward in faith. Keeping the Law was only an outward way to show their faith to the world. Today we have different ways to outwardly show faith, specifically baptism and the keeping of the Lord's Supper (or Communion, if you prefer).

To address the poll question, I answered yes, because God requires and deserves absolute, immediate obedience, no questions asked. However, I would also like to state that it's an unfair question.
How is it an unfair question? it is based off of biblical history ... he has asked the question before

How do you know it was placed there through devine power? maybe it is devil trickery just telling you what you desire to hear

Actually, this is covered in the book, but I'll try to answer your question anyway.

First of all, there is no power greater than God, and so unless I willingly give myself to the devil (Which I have in no way confirmed the exsistence of and therefor don't believe in yet), God would be the over-riding voice.

By 'someone else' I was refering mainly to secular 'someone elses'

Actually, this is covered in the book, but I'll try to answer your question anyway.

First of all, there is no power greater than God, and so unless I willingly give myself to the devil (Which I have in no way confirmed the exsistence of and therefor don't believe in yet), God would be the over-riding voice.

By 'someone else' I was refering mainly to secular 'someone elses'
Well then why is the devil a factor in anything ... if god can and does override then there should be no leway for being convinced of anything but a devine path

Because I have the free will to act upon said guidence/message/lies/voices. God, in his wisdom, granted me such a gift, and in doing so, gave me the gift of life.

Therefor, he also would not infringe on my right to free will, even if it meant steering me away from bad influences, for the measurment of good vs. evil is essential to the very essence of life.

Because I have the free will to act upon said guidence/message/lies/voices. God, in his wisdom, granted me such a gift, and in doing so, gave me the gift of life.

Therefor, he also would not infringe on my right to free will, even if it meant steering me away from bad influences, for the measurment of good vs. evil is essential to the very essence of life.
I understand that but you just said that god impressed his will on you by over riding what could be a false impression of him
How did he do this without violating this free will you espouse?

By giving myself freely to God, by allowing him in, I grant him the right to impress his image upon me. This in no way is a violation of my free-will, as he is not forcing me to believe in anything, he is mearly placing his mark on his creation.

I'd love to continue this debate, you're one of the few people that I can debate without them simply saying that things are their way just because they are. Unfortunatly, I must leave the site now, I will look for you in the future, however.

By giving myself freely to God, by allowing him in, I grant him the right to impress his image upon me. This in no way is a violation of my free-will, as he is not forcing me to believe in anything, he is mearly placing his mark on his creation.

I'd love to continue this debate, you're one of the few people that I can debate without them simply saying that things are their way just because they are. Unfortunatly, I must leave the site now, I will look for you in the future, however.
But that begs the question if you were asking the real god ;) you have to have faith to believe the impression given to you was truly god … or that you asked god to do so to you.

I think it should read:

If the bible said to abandon Descartes on a mountaintop, would you?

Answer: Hell, yes!!

:D