NationStates Jolt Archive

I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin. And there is punishment for people who are behaving promiscuously. There are 30 various STDs, more than half uncurable. In the 50's where morals were respected, there were 5. You could count them on 1 hand. Now there are 30, many deadly. And there is also a chance of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Many people are using contraception, but the truth is it fails. Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV. The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage! No contraception is going to make sex any safer. As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control. In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.

At any other time I would rip your post apart, but I'm not in the mood.

there were only 5 known STDs. Viruses do not spawn because people have sex.

In case you're interested, today I had gay sex with 5 men I'd never met, helped women abort babies at the clinic, and watched 2 hours of MTV. You know, the show where the sodomites date.

*as homer* -starts to get up off of couch-falls asleep

Heh, I never watched MTV when I was in HS. Aside from that, damned ripping good laugh! Thanks!

FYI Commando, most of the people on this forum are sardonic agnostics/atheists who take themselves too seriously to consider the presence of God. There's simply not enough reason in their ego for the both of them!

Meh...marriage is a fiasco in and of itself to begin with. Perhaps if we did away with marriage to begin with, you people would stop complaining. Why should some skank off the street be our next of kin anyway, let it remain with the parents or designate it to a relative. Or better yet, let us designate next of kin status /without/ marrying and giving up income and alimony for the privledge!

FYI Commando, most of the people on this forum are sardonic agnostics/atheists who take themselves too seriously to consider the presence of God. There's simply not enough reason in their ego for the both of them!
I don't take myself seriously, but I don't take you or God, or any other being, divine or not seriously. I'm going to have fun, live life, and help others to do so, if at the expense of those trying to stop me.

Commando3']Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV.
No, I wasn't told that in Sex Ed, since they spent the entire time telling us "Sex is bad, don't hve sex", and not actually educating us on what the consequences were. That is the problem with abstinence-only education, when someone chooses not to be abstinent, they do not know the risk.

The first step to fixing the united states is to reform the education system so that education through the 12th grade is compulsory and national tests are administered to verify that students learn at least two foreign languages and become knowledgeable in the sciences and history.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

Thanks, we really appreciate it.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin. And there is punishment for people who are behaving promiscuously. There are 30 various STDs, more than half uncurable. In the 50's where morals were respected, there were 5. You could count them on 1 hand. Now there are 30, many deadly. And there is also a chance of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Many people are using contraception, but the truth is it fails. Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV. The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage! No contraception is going to make sex any safer. As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control. In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.


You think I really care? I ain't no god-damn son of a bitch.

You better think about it, baby.

I don't take myself seriously, but I don't take you or God, or any other being, divine or not seriously. I'm going to have fun, live life, and help others to do so, if at the expense of those trying to stop me.

agreed.

and as far as the whole sex issue, i think the catholic church should accept that times are changing. it's not possible to expect modern society to be dictated by millenia-old religious norms.

Thanks, we really appreciate it.

LOL! :p

FYI Commando, most of the people on this forum are sardonic agnostics/atheists who take themselves too seriously to consider the presence of God. There's simply not enough reason in their ego for the both of them!
Ooh, thank you kindly for the insult!
:)
Unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about. "Taking myself seriously" or my ego has nothing to do with the fact that I am agnostic, and nothing to do with the reason I am against what Commando says. The reason I am against what he says is that he doesn't know what he is talking about here.

You really need to get a life. Pretending this issue is any more important or relevent than it has been throughout mans recorded history is dilusional.

So is pretending you have the soulution wrapped up in one simple word.

This debate has been done to death and there's no reason to believe that reopening discusion will change anything.

It never ceases to amaze me that unbelievers somehow seem to think they should have a say in what happens with the Catholic Church.

Neo-Anarchists, not an insult; simply an explanation.

Commando: Keep on keepin' on.

It never ceases to amaze me that unbelievers somehow seem to think they should have a say in what happens with the Catholic Church.

Neo-Anarchists, not an insult; simply an explanation.

Commando: Keep on keepin' on.
It never ceases to amaze me that the Catholic Church seems to think it has a say in what happens with the unbelievers.

Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed
You would have *loved* the abstinence-only sex ed at the school my friend goes to . . . a slideshow of really sickening STD-plagued genitals. He wanted to claw his eyes out after watching that.

It never ceases to amaze me that unbelievers somehow seem to think they should have a say in what happens with the Catholic Church.

Neo-Anarchists, not an insult; simply an explanation.

Commando: Keep on keepin' on.

you don't know jesussaves by any chance?...

and how is it fair that NONbelievers don't have a say in what happens in the catholic church if the catholic church insists on having a say on what happens in their lives?

You would have *loved* the abstinence-only sex ed at the school my friend goes to . . . a slideshow of really sickening STD-plagued genitals. He wanted to claw his eyes out after watching that.


He should have gone and bought some condoms.

Hey commando, didn't you start a really similar thread a couple of days ago? 'Cept that one was just about MTV.
But hey, I guess it's ok, since you're takeing cues from our administration - "If I say it enough, it will become true!"

I find it interesting that people claim STDs are a punishment from god for having sex outside marriage, even when god-loving/fearing Christians frequently get infected with and die from a whole host of afflictions such as viruses, bacteria, even things like cancer. What are they being punished for, exactly? And why the hell does my mouth taste like soap? EW... it's getting stronger! Help!

*Runs away in search of water*

He should have gone and bought some condoms.
and opened them before class on top of the teacher's desk.

It never ceases to amaze me that unbelievers somehow seem to think they should have a say in what happens with the Catholic Church.
What the Church does is not my problem. When it is my problem is when people try to legislate Christian morality. I don't care what the Church says, but I do care when people try to make what the Church says law.

agreed.

and as far as the whole sex issue, i think the catholic church should accept that times are changing. it's not possible to expect modern society to be dictated by millenia-old religious norms.

I agree with this completely, but I take it further.

The entire old testament is outdated. Read it. And yet, Christians are still using it to justify their biases, 4000 years later, while also ignoring many passages because they're "obsolete". The whole book is, deal with it, and stop clinging to some ideological past. Get with the times, you're outdated!

Obviously, the only way to get the horniness out of people is to burn it out of them.

Everyone should have all the sex they can possibly manage, and then more. Like eating so many twinkies that you hurl. That'll teach'em.

Let the Orgies of Punishment begin! I got dibs on all the women who need to be taught that blow jobs are to be hated. :fluffle: :eek:

and opened them before class on top of the teacher's desk.

He should have brought a cucumber and given a demonstration of how condoms worked, he had a genuine interest in doing so after seeing such a film, to know how to prevent such diseases and willfully withhold that knowledge is immoral.

It is a shame that such immorality is preached to youth.

Obviously, the only way to get the horniness out of people is to burn it out of them.

Everyone should have all the sex they can possibly manage, and then more. Like eating so many twinkies that you hurl. That'll teach'em.

Let the Orgies of Punishment begin! I got dibs on all the women who need to be taught that blow jobs are to be hated. :fluffle: :eek:

I get all the simply hot ones!!!! ^.^

I was only about 6 when MTV started going downhill. That kinda blows.

And deities. Well, we haven't had interesting gods or goddesses since about 2300 years ago or so, though Hindu mythology aint that bad.

I get all the simply hot ones!!!! ^.^

I'll make sure they brush on the way over to ya.

He should have brought a cucumber and given a demonstration of how condoms worked, he had a genuine interest in doing so after seeing such a film, to know how to prevent such diseases and willfully withhold that knowledge is immoral.

It is a shame that such immorality is preached to youth.
The church makes its living on being immoral.
And don't tell me the church doesn't make its living off being immoral. I've seen photos of a priest standing next to a limo in the middle of a town that is falling apart, where the only nice building is the church. That is immorality.

You think I really care? I ain't no god-damn son of a bitch.

You better think about it, baby.

Haha, love the Misfits/No Fun At All quote!

Here's another:

I'm tired of the believers, I'm tired of them talking of heaven.
I'm tired of the believers, I'm tired of them singinh their endless boring song

You'lle be happy, come get salvation/I'll be happy when I smash your face in!

Changing our perverted society? I'm embracing it.

What the Church does is not my problem. When it is my problem is when people try to legislate Christian morality. I don't care what the Church says, but I do care when people try to make what the Church says law.

Your cult is on the tailcoats of science and mathematics. Neither of your squabbling factions have real control.
A century from now Jesus will love gays and will be depicted as black in most murals. You have no chance to delude, make your time.

Well, I believe that all sex is evil, and abstinence should be practiced even in marraige.

Well, I believe that all sex is evil, and abstinence should be practiced even in marraige.
Yeah?
I belive that marriage is evil, and all sex should be practiced in the street.

Well, I believe that all sex is evil, and abstinence should be practiced even in marraige.


So you are sexually dysfunctional...

I was only about 6 when MTV started going downhill. That kinda blows.

And deities. Well, we haven't had interesting gods or goddesses since about 2300 years ago or so, though Hindu mythology aint that bad.

Sure we have! The Norse gods. 'Nough said!

Sure we have! The Norse gods. 'Nough said!
Amon Amarth! Wooohooo! Kill the infidels!

Apparently fidelity and going to doctors never occured to Catholics.

Not that they are intelligent enough to realize that having too many children is the greatest sin of all.

I can tell you right now that they DID tell me all that stuff in Health class, in High School 2 years ago.

However, i agree. Most NSers seem to only care about "here" and "now" never thinking about something higher. When I was having a debate against homosexuals, and said that they are immoral one NSer actually said "what exactly is morality?". That should tell a person that something is wrong.

BTW, I am not Catholic, or Christian. I am Jewish.

As for the atheists, most of them simply take science to be their god, and believe purely in science.

So you are sexually dysfunctional...
No. I just believe that abstinence is only moral. All reproduction ought to be done through artificial insemination.

I can tell you right now that they DID tell me all that stuff in Health class, in High School 2 years ago.

However, i agree. Most NSers seem to only care about "here" and "now" never thinking about something higher. When I was having a debate against homosexuals, and said that they are immoral one NSer actually said "what exactly is morality?". That should tell a person that something is wrong.

BTW, I am not Catholic, or Christian. I am Jewish.

As for the atheists, most of them simply take science to be their god, and believe purely in science.
Well? Did you answer him? What is moralit?

Amon Amarth! Wooohooo! Kill the infidels!

Norse gods still around today?
Eh. That religion is more depressing than nihilism. >.<

At least the last time I looked into it.

Norse gods still around today?
Eh. That religion is more depressing than nihilism. >.<

At least the last time I looked into it.
Amon Amarth is a good band, and they practice the Nordic religion. Except they believe in killing all of the unbelievers.

Amon Amarth is a good band, and they practice the Nordic religion. Except they believe in killing all of the unbelievers.

They sound like nice guys :)

I am Jewish.

As for the atheists, most of them simply take science to be their god, and believe purely in science.

Only the dumb ones.

And as a Kohan, I have something very important to tell you.
WE MADE IT UP.

It was all just a scam to get you to act properly and care for your health and fellow man. Unfortunately it back fired with Christ and we've been struggling to keep it under control. But we're working on it.

Shutup, read the Talmud, and have a bacon cheeseburger (I had that every day after Hebrew school).

They sound like nice guys :)
Yup.

Apparently fidelity and going to doctors never occured to Catholics.

Not that they are intelligent enough to realize that having too many children is the greatest sin of all.
NO! Just the opposite! Not having as many children as you can is a great sin. Every single child is a blessing.

Yeah?
I belive that marriage is evil, and all sex should be practiced in the street.

Best... quote... ever!

I can tell you right now that they DID tell me all that stuff in Health class, in High School 2 years ago.

However, i agree. Most NSers seem to only care about "here" and "now" never thinking about something higher. When I was having a debate against homosexuals, and said that they are immoral one NSer actually said "what exactly is morality?". That should tell a person that something is wrong.

BTW, I am not Catholic, or Christian. I am Jewish.

As for the atheists, most of them simply take science to be their god, and believe purely in science.

It is dishonest to pretend that the question "what is morality" implies that the person is unfamiliar with morals.

Obviously, the question referred to what qualified certain opinions to constitute 'correct morality' and others not to.

It is barbaric wickedness and completely immoral to persecute homosexuals.

Haha, love the Misfits/No Fun At All quote!

Here's another:

I'm tired of the believers, I'm tired of them talking of heaven.
I'm tired of the believers, I'm tired of them singinh their endless boring song

You'lle be happy, come get salvation/I'll be happy when I smash your face in!


I thought somebody might get it.

NO! Just the opposite! Not having as many children as you can is a great sin. Every single child is a blessing.

What if it has a serious mental disorder that makes it become a mad axe murder and rapist of women? Would the child be a blessing then?

Best... quote... ever!
I'm having one of those days today. Just on fire, I guess.

Well? Did you answer him? What is moralit?

Subjective. Leave the j00b alone. He's the exception to Jews-are-smart rule.

When I was having a debate against homosexuals, and said that they are immoral one NSer actually said "what exactly is morality?". That should tell a person that something is wrong.
What exactly is morality? If you can't define morality, why should we follow your morality?

Only the dumb ones.

And as a Kohan, I have something very important to tell you.
WE MADE IT UP.

It was all just a scam to get you to act properly and care for your health and fellow man. Unfortunately it back fired with Christ and we've been struggling to keep it under control. But we're working on it.

Shutup, read the Talmud, and have a bacon cheeseburger (I had that every day after Hebrew school).
Lol.

Norse gods still around today?
Eh. That religion is more depressing than nihilism. >.<

At least the last time I looked into it.

Actually, it really isn't. All the gods have killed themselves.... ^.^ Haha!

I was only about 6 when MTV started going downhill. That kinda blows.

And deities. Well, we haven't had interesting gods or goddesses since about 2300 years ago or so, though Hindu mythology aint that bad.

Seriously - If you want people intrested in religion again, we gotta go back to the Greek gods! You know, the one's that were always *gasp* having sex out of wedlock? Good times there.

Commando3']In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.
I listen to neither. I listen to my own morals and beliefs, and bible humpers, like yourself, are the last people I listen to. Religion has hurt me more than any of the "Immoral" activities I partake in. Religious zealots are the scum of society. Who else besides the religious zealots freak out on anyone and everyone trying to "save" them? Most people ignore these zealots I speak of, I ignored one, and they screwed me over cause I ignored them. I told them I wanted nothing to do with their religion and they came back and hit me below the belt, they were willing to lie to the police to get me to believe their religion. now I have enough of your crap commando so shut your fucking hole and let the people live with out your incesant blathering.

Seriously - If you want people intrested in religion again, we gotta go back to the Greek gods! You know, the one's that were always *gasp* having sex out of wedlock? Good times there.

And also some gay sex! The Greek gods were 1337!

Subjective. Leave the j00b alone. He's the exception to Jews-are-smart rule.
I am, in theory, Jewish. Unfortunately, I lost my faith in God.
Am I still smart?

No. I just believe that abstinence is only moral. All reproduction ought to be done through artificial insemination.

Your opinion is unhealthy and reflects a dysfunctional world view.

A similarly telling opinion would be "one small child in four should be fed to animals to reduce the population."

You are either lying or have a sexual dysfunction. One or the other informs such a statement.

What if it has a serious mental disorder that makes it become a mad axe murder and rapist of women? Would the child be a blessing then?

ESPECIALLY them. And especially if they also rape men and the occassional bison.

What exactly is morality? If you can't define morality, why should we follow your morality?
See, thats the problem. YOu want everything exactly defined, everything to be physical. Everything to follow the standards of science, your god. If G-d doesn't have an XYZT location, that means he doesn't exist. You fail to believe that something can stand above science, above what you think is most basic.

Well, I believe that all sex is evil, and abstinence should be practiced even in marraige.

What an excellent way of removing more annoying people, one generation and pop they're gone. oh and as for artifical insemination, why isn't the body God gave you good enough?

But seriously, Jesus Christ said "Turn the other cheek", it's a pity more Christian's don't remember that.

See, thats the problem. YOu want everything exactly defined, everything to be physical. Everything to follow the standards of science, your god. If G-d doesn't have an XYZT location, that means he doesn't exist. You fail to believe that something can stand above science, above what you think is most basic.

If you mean "we dont believe in the fantastic and non-falsifiable" then yes, I for one do not believe in the fantastic and non-falsifiable.

There is no good reason to believe in a magical supernatural force. Period.

I agree with NS Commandos on this one, the morality of this country is falling apart.

See, thats the problem. YOu want everything exactly defined, everything to be physical. Everything to follow the standards of science, your god. If G-d doesn't have an XYZT location, that means he doesn't exist. You fail to believe that something can stand above science, above what you think is most basic.
No, I don't fail to believe that. Quit telling me what I do and don't believe, and tell me why I should believe what you do, as I asked. If you can't even say why your morals are correct, I fail to see why I should adopt them.

I love zealots. Thanks for sharing that tid bit of useless information.

Fact is: sex is amazing, it feels good, if it's safe it's the best aerobic workout you'll find, and no one is taking that from me.

I wear protection, I get tested regularly for STD's. STD's wouldn't be a problem if people wouldn't be so cowardly and would get tested. It's ignorance, not immorality that is killing people.

Face it - Christianity is responsible for more life lost than anything else, ever.

ESPECIALLY them. And especially if they also rape men and the occassional bison.
I'm a blessing? Yay, bison!

What if it has a serious mental disorder that makes it become a mad axe murder and rapist of women? Would the child be a blessing then?
Yes, because he had a chance to fill a good life, although chose to rape women and kill people with an axe.

NO! Just the opposite! Not having as many children as you can is a great sin. Every single child is a blessing.

Looks like we caught an orthodox. Oh no, the peyas is stuck in the line!

Hey, moron. Overpopulation. Ever heard of it?
Malthus. Swift.

A net increase in population of 2.3 people per second is not a good thing. Overpopulation is the cause of the majority of the worlds problems (though it's a circular logic involving religion and the ignroance of lower classes).

Deforestation
Overcrowding
Lack of education
Pollution
Starvation
Wars
Droughts
Disease

All of these are caused by it, and in turn, cause much worse things.


There is nothing more disrespectful to your fellow man than to have more than 2 children. It shows selfishness, stupidity, and an inability to think about the future.


Also, my brainwashed friend, just because we were pushed through a bottleneck of a genocide doesn't give us the license to go wild with kids.

I am, in theory, Jewish. Unfortunately, I lost my faith in God.
Am I still smart?

You didn't lose it. You saw through the bullshit.
That's what makes you smart.

Judaism is agnosticism/rationalism/atheism wrapped in tissue paper. It's the closest religion to a philosophy short of Buddhism.

You still need to take a few steps though. I.e. not typing "God" in caps, not say "lost my faith", etc.
Unless of course you've only just "lost your faith", in which case, no, you're not smart, just egocentric and blindsited.

See, thats the problem. YOu want everything exactly defined, everything to be physical. Everything to follow the standards of science, your god. If G-d doesn't have an XYZT location, that means he doesn't exist. You fail to believe that something can stand above science, above what you think is most basic.

That's nonsense! You accuse someone of wanting everything defined, yet you go and read your (insert religious scripture here - most likely the Bible) because it defines the "right" way to live. Definitions aren't exclusive to science. What exactly were the 10 commandments if not a definition of how to live? If you can't say what's moral, then just sit down and be quiet. The problem is that anything you say is moral in your religion/culture may not be moral in another and vice versa. Morals aren't absolute outside of a given belief system/world view so what gives any one sect of the world population the right to dictate the morals of everyone? To me, that's the biggest immorality there is.

Face it - Christianity is responsible for more life lost than anything else, ever.

Is that a bad thing?

They curb the herds. Keep the minorities on their feet.

They make themselves the lower class by perpetuating violence and catalyzing natural selection.

It's incredible to think about in a blase nihilistic way.

I love zealots. Thanks for sharing that tid bit of useless information.

Fact is: sex is amazing, it feels good, if it's safe it's the best aerobic workout you'll find, and no one is taking that from me.

I wear protection, I get tested regularly for STD's. STD's wouldn't be a problem if people wouldn't be so cowardly and would get tested. It's ignorance, not immorality that is killing people.

Face it - Christianity is responsible for more life lost than anything else, ever.
Testing for STDs is not going to help you, because it doens't prevent it. It will only help you not spread it to other partners.

Hey, moron. Overpopulation. Ever heard of it?
I also at some point thought that how can every child be a blessing if there is overpopulation? However the answer that I read, is that you should trust G-d to help take care of your children and provide for them. And also, you don't see anyone proposing to kill people to help stop overpopulation, so why forbid unborn unconcieved kids to see the world?



No, I don't fail to believe that. Quit telling me what I do and don't believe, and tell me why I should believe what you do, as I asked. If you can't even say why your morals are correct, I fail to see why I should adopt them.
I am not telling you what to believe. I only came on this thread to voice my opinion. THat's one of the perks of being a Jew: you don't have to convert everyone to your religion.

And also some gay sex! The Greek gods were 1337!

Hephaustus tried to rape my patron goddess, Athena. It made me sad.

Yes, because he had a chance to fill a good life, although chose to rape women and kill people with an axe.

And the Iron Curtain leaders were the greatest blessings of all, right?

Hephaustus tried to rape my patron goddess, Athena. It made me sad.

Should turned him in to a doe, and put him in range of a hart.

I stopped believing it when I spend a tenth week in a fucking row learning about the holocaust in Hebrew school. I figure, if there is a god, how can he allow that sort of thing to happen? Did he take a fucking cruise for a couple of months? So I'm either a Diest (Believe God started evolution and left) or an Athiest, and I don't know which.

I capitalize God because it is a pronoun, much like you would capitalize Dad in the sentence "My Dad beats me with a stick."

THat's one of the perks of being a Jew: you don't have to convert everyone to your religion.

You're not a Jew. You're a person with the genetic makeup of a dogmatic Christian raised Jewish. You'd just as soon fall into any other cult.

Look at yourself. You refuse to spell GOD because you think some invisible being is reading this forum now, watching to see if you disrespect and anglasized version of a GERMAN word.

God comes from the german word gott. The nazis thank you for their praise, Yahweh doesn't.

Oh, I mean, yud-hay-vav-hay, because Yahweh likes it when we can spell.

You didn't lose it. You saw through the bullshit.
That's what makes you smart.

Judaism is agnosticism/rationalism/atheism wrapped in tissue paper. It's the closest religion to a philosophy short of Buddhism.

You still need to take a few steps though. I.e. not typing "God" in caps, not say "lost my faith", etc.
Unless of course you've only just "lost your faith", in which case, no, you're not smart, just egocentric and blindsited.
He didn't just lose his faith, he turned away from g-d, most likely because there is no scientific explanation for him.

Should turned him in to a doe, and put him in range of a hart.

Not Artemis, dumbass.

I stopped believing it when I spend a tenth week in a fucking row learning about the holocaust in Hebrew school. I figure, if there is a god, how can he allow that sort of thing to happen? Did he take a fucking cruise for a couple of months? So I'm either a Diest (Believe God started evolution and left) or an Athiest, and I don't know which.

I capitalize God because it is a pronoun, much like you would capitalize Dad in the sentence "My Dad beats me with a stick."


"Dad" isnt a pronoun...

And it would be incorrect to capitalize it like that.

He didn't just lose his faith, he turned away from g-d, most likely because there is no scientific explanation for him.

My religion is not science.

The bottom line is, gods don't fit the rational. Not the scientific. You're self delusions do not a consise arguement make.

And finally, God doesn't need our praise. God doesn't need us. And we don't need him. If he did, he would be subordinate.

Just so some of you know;

The Catholic Church does not tell unbelievers what to do; it issues instructions to the Faithful. Do not confuse the premises of freedom of conscience (your own choice to reject the teachings of the Church) and religious liberty (propogating your errors).

I capitalize God because it is a pronoun, much like you would capitalize Dad in the sentence "My Dad beats me with a stick."

...Wait.. why do you capitalize pronouns...? Personal style preference?

You're not a Jew. You're a person with the genetic makeup of a dogmatic Christian raised Jewish. You'd just as soon fall into any other cult.

Look at yourself. You refuse to spell GOD because you think some invisible being is reading this forum now, watching to see if you disrespect and anglasized version of a GERMAN word.

No, I am Jewish. YOu saying I am Christian means nothing, because it does notthing.

And yes, G-d is watching me and you type. Not only that, he is responsible for everything about it, he is responsible for the keys moving down under the force of my fingers, for electrons going to the processor, for the processor sending the data to RAM, for the NIC sending the message packet to servers, for the servers posting the post on NS forums. He is responsible for absolutely everything that goes on. Science works because he wants it to.

"Dad" isnt a pronoun...

And it would be incorrect to capitalize it like that.
Well, then screw the English language. I dunno what it is, but it's supposed to be capitalized. Lemme try again. "Hey Dad, please dont' hit me with the stick."
There. That's right. "My Dad" is wrong.
Edit: I continue to be coherent.

Testing for STDs is not going to help you, because it doens't prevent it. It will only help you not spread it to other partners.


I also at some point thought that how can every child be a blessing if there is overpopulation? However the answer that I read, is that you should trust G-d to help take care of your children and provide for them. And also, you don't see anyone proposing to kill people to help stop overpopulation, so why forbid unborn unconcieved kids to see the world?



I am not telling you what to believe. I only came on this thread to voice my opinion. THat's one of the perks of being a Jew: you don't have to convert everyone to your religion.

1. Fidelity helps, Mr. morality.
2a. I have 70 trillion sperm, I guess I can father that many children.
2b. I would propose killing them, because in 100 years, they die anyways.
3. You are. You came here to prostheletyze. Just like the Christians.

...Wait.. why do you capitalize pronouns...? Personal style preference?
Not because it's a pronoun. Something else I can't remember. In English class two years ago. DAMNIT! I AM STUPID!

Not Artemis, dumbass.

Did I say he got hunted down by dogs?

Artemis doesn't have a bloody patent on harts, ya know.

No, I am Jewish. YOu saying I am Christian means nothing, because it does notthing.

And yes, G-d is watching me and you type. Not only that, he is responsible for everything about it, he is responsible for the keys moving down under the force of my fingers, for electrons going to the processor, for the processor sending the data to RAM, for the NIC sending the message packet to servers, for the servers posting the post on NS forums. He is responsible for absolutely everything that goes on. Science works because he wants it to.

Then we have no free will, and you are just his bitch.
That sounds even bleaker than scientific religion of genetic predestination.

Your knowledge of computers doesn't impress me.

Not because it's a pronoun. Something else I can't remember. In English class two years ago. DAMNIT! I AM STUPID!

You only capitalize it when you use it as a title, "Hey, Dad". Not when you use it as a descriptive noun, "My dad"

Did I say he got hunted down by dogs?

Artemis doesn't have a bloody patent on harts, ya know.

Athena has more class. She wiped off the sperm with a stick and hrough it on the ground where it became Echidna.

You only capitalize it when you use it as a title, "Hey, Dad". Not when you use it as a descriptive noun, "My dad"

He's still trapped in his delusions. Let time take it's course.
It happens to the best of us.

The passions and brainwashings are hard to overcome.

You only capitalize it when you use it as a title, "Hey, Dad". Not when you use it as a descriptive noun, "My dad"
Thank you. That's what I was trying to say, it just came out wrong. I'm better with examples than with explanations.

Commando3']We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin. And there is punishment for people who are behaving promiscuously. There are 30 various STDs, more than half uncurable. In the 50's where morals were respected, there were 5. You could count them on 1 hand. Now there are 30, many deadly. And there is also a chance of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Many people are using contraception, but the truth is it fails. Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV. The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage! No contraception is going to make sex any safer. As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.
OK, for one thing, the highest rate of new infection for aids is in africa, where condoms aren't used terribly often.

For another, your condom failure rates are way too high to be accurate.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.
I've never watched MTV, well, I used to here and there when I'd go to my grandparent's house, we don't have MTV in Canada, really, plus it sucks compared to much so even if i had it, I wouldn't watch it.

At any rate, you're not disrespecting your partner if you have sex with them. I don't know where you get that idea.

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.
Damn, too late on the sex before marriage. I still have dignity and act morally. I'm not hurting anyone else, now am I?

Athena has more class. She wiped off the sperm with a stick and hrough it on the ground where it became Echidna.

Yeah, but she also married Zeus, the Greek Slick Willy. :D

And Echidna's mostly remembered for being the species name for Knuckles of Sonic the Hedgehog fame.

Well, then screw the English language. I dunno what it is, but it's supposed to be capitalized. Lemme try again. "Hey Dad, please dont' hit me with the stick."
There. That's right. My dad is wrong.
Edit: I continue to be coherent.


The difference is that in one case (the first) you are directly addressing your father, it is the.... vocative case I believe.

In the second, "my dad" is the subject of the sentence, the nominative case.

In english, vocative nouns are often capitalized.

It is generally incorrect to capitalize 'god' unless your reference is specifically to a single supreme deity. ex. "God be praised!" "Praise Athena, my favorite god!"

To be as precise as possible in your language and avoid ambiguity or apparent contradiction, it is best to use phrasing like "I do not believe in a god" rather than "I do not believe in God."

And the Iron Curtain leaders were the greatest blessings of all, right?
They had a chance to live a righteous life.

1. Fidelity helps, Mr. morality.
2a. I have 70 trillion sperm, I guess I can father that many children.
2b. I would propose killing them, because in 100 years, they die anyways.
3. You are. You came here to prostheletyze. Just like the Christians.
2a: you should give as many of yuor sperm a chance to live as you can.
3: I am not telling you to go to a synagogue. I am defending my viewpoint, because it is constantly getting trampled in NS.

Then we have no free will, and you are just his bitch.
That sounds even bleaker than scientific religion of genetic predestination.

Your knowledge of computers doesn't impress me
We have free will, but all our free will is given to us by G-d. We decide what to do, but he keeps our souls and brains alive to make that decision, makes our arms move, makes the nucleus in the atoms of our arms stay together.

All in short, he is crucial to have us go though with our decision, even if it goes against His laws.

The difference is that in one case (the first) you are directly addressing your father, it is the.... vocative case I believe.

In the second, "my dad" is the subject of the sentence, the nominative case.

In english, vocative nouns are often capitalized.

It is generally incorrect to capitalize 'god' unless your reference is specifically to a single supreme deity. ex. "God be praised!" "Praise Athena, my favorite god!"

To be as precise as possible in your language and avoid ambiguity or apparent contradiction, it is best to use phrasing like "I do not believe in a god" rather than "I do not believe in God."
Thank you for making sense of my pathetic little attempts at a complete, correct sentence.

Yeah, but she also married Zeus, the Greek Slick Willy. :D

And Echidna's mostly remembered for being the species name for Knuckles of Sonic the Hedgehog fame.

AAAH! Idiot. You know nothing of Hellenic religion.
Athena is the daughter of Zeus. She is one of the three virgin goddesses.

Thank you for making sense of my pathetic little attempts at a complete, correct sentence.

Then use Yahweh. Saying "God" is egocentric to your personal religious delusions.

We have free will, but all our free will is given to us by G-d. We decide what to do, but he keeps our souls and brains alive to make that decision, makes our arms move, makes the nucleus in the atoms of our arms stay together.




How is a hypothesis like that falsifiable, what makes it different from the same hypothesis with the word "god" replaced by the word "unicorns."

Is there any practical relevence to the change?

Logical stuff

You actually listened to a Catholic!? That's dangerous for your health.

And ya, the failure rate of condoms is more like 0.1%
And did I mention you can get tested?

Thank you for making sense of my pathetic little attempts at a complete, correct sentence.

Through Latin all things are possible. :)

If the world spent one tenth of the time it wastes on religion in a gainful pursuit like the study of latin grammar, the world would be tenfold better.

Sorry, got her mixed up with Hera. I suck with names.

Athena: Chick with the owl who popped out of daddy's skull after he munched her. Wisdom and war, yadda.

I know my bloody basic Greek mythology, thank you.

Then use Yahweh. Saying "God" is egocentric to your personal religious delusions.
I'm not going to change my Engish that much.

How is a hypothesis like that falsifiable, what makes it different from the same hypothesis with the word "god" replaced by the word "unicorns."

Is there any practical relevence to the change?

UNICORNS ARE REAL YOU ASSHOLE! THEY DO EXIST. I HAVE PROOF! I SEE THEM AND TALK TO THEM AND PET THEM AND SOMETIMES THEY TOUCH ME AND LET ME KISS THEM, AND ONE TIME I SAWED OFF ITS HORN AND GROUND IT UP AND THEN I SMOKED IT AND IT WAS GOOD.

Through Latin all things are possible. :)

If the world spent one tenth of the time it wastes on religion in a gainful pursuit like the study of latin grammar, the world would be tenfold better.
I did take a class on latin word roots, and it helped my vocabulary.

Through Latin all things are possible. :)

If the world spent one tenth of the time it wastes on religion in a gainful pursuit like the study of latin grammar, the world would be tenfold better.

I <3 Latin. I know the first noun and verb I learned in the language I love it so much. One of the best damn things you can do.
Sure it's hell memorizing 30 ways of saying this or that, but it's worth it.

Sorry, got her mixed up with Hera. I suck with names.

Athena: Chick with the owl who popped out of daddy's skull after he munched her. Wisdom and war, yadda.

I know my bloody basic Greek mythology, thank you.

He didn't munch her, he munched Thetis!

Failure of condoms is nethier 17%, nor .1%. It's 5%. At least that's what they taught is in health.

How is a hypothesis like that falsifiable, what makes it different from the same hypothesis with the word "god" replaced by the word "unicorns."

Is there any practical relevence to the change?
Again, G-d doesn't need a scientific explanation, because he is above science.


You know what? This is getting recursive. I am getting the same questions and answering them in the same way. Good night.

UNICORNS ARE REAL YOU ASSHOLE! THEY DO EXIST. I HAVE PROOF! I SEE THEM AND TALK TO THEM AND PET THEM AND SOMETIMES THEY TOUCH ME AND LET ME KISS THEM, AND ONE TIME I SAWED OFF ITS HORN AND GROUND IT UP AND THEN I SMOKED IT AND IT WAS GOOD.

Invisible and Pink, yes? :D

Failure of condoms is nethier 17%, nor .1%. It's 5%. At least that's what they taught is in health.


Again, G-d doesn't need a scientific explanation, because he is above science.


You know what? This is getting recursive. I am getting the same questions and answering them in the same way. Good night.


The question didnt involve a scientific explanation.

I asked how the hypothesis was falsifiable, and what the relevance of replacing 'god' with 'unicorns' would be.

It is impolite not to answer simple, civil questions.

He didn't munch her, he munched Thetis!

Last I heard, he ate her and she popped out full grown from his head in armor.

Thetis was a bloody sea nymph who popped Achilles out.

Athena was eaten while inside her mother -M-etis, the titan.

So NYEH.

Last I heard, he ate her and she popped out full grown from his head in armor.

Thetis was a bloody sea nymph who popped Achilles out.

Athena was eaten while inside her mother -M-etis, the titan.

So NYEH.

Dammit. You win this round. (I always get the two mixed up).

You know what? This is getting recursive. I am getting the same questions and answering them in the same way. Good night.

He's confused, scared, and making a break for it. Should we let him go?

We'll call it even, eh?

Sex is just like everything else in life. It is taking a risk. If you and your partner understand what may happen and can logically accept that, you are free to make the choice. Opening a private business is something that you hope will result in being profitable and beneficial. It could also result in you losing your life savings. Having sex could result in diseases, pregnancy, and emotional turmoil. If you understand this and are prepared to deal with it, then you will likely have a very good time. :D

And also, why is it that homosexuality is immoral? Maybe you're not really saying it's God, but if it is... Well, why should that matter? Honestly, who does this God think he is? Does creating something and giving it free will give you the right to dictate exactly what it should do? Is getting angry about something disobeying just because you don't particularly care for the way it is doing something justifiable? Think about it.

He's confused, scared, and making a break for it. Should we let him go?

:eek: :confused: :(

A Christian... avoiding giving a straight answer.. to a tough question!?

I.. I.. I've never seen such a ... I never imagined... it.. it just isn't possible...

...For this to be a surprise at all.

Failure of condoms is nethier 17%, nor .1%. It's 5%. At least that's what they taught is in health.

They lied. In practice, it's about 2% via a certain set of conditions, which comes out to about 0.1% per sexual encounter.

They lied. In practice, it's about 2% via a certain set of conditions, which comes out to about 0.1% per sexual encounter.

Called it!

I find it interesting that anyone who dares to suggest that they may have a given belief system will get shot down on sight as "protelysing", regardless of what they actually said, I don't know perhaps it is the wrong place to discuss such things, but when someone simply dismisses them as being crackers I do find it rather saddening on the whole. Discuss, debate and generally work out these things, but to simply dismiss people because they dare to have beliefs to my mind at least just makes your own stance look and sound rather hollow... But thats just my view.

Right, back on topic.

When someone suggests their one stop solution to instant health I do find it interesting. What the original poster says is essencially correct, abstinance prior to marrage would indeed stop STD's in their tracks, however, like Communism, it completely fails to take into account the human condition, in so much as the fact that a good proportion of people in this world are randy bastards ;)

There was no golden age of morals back in the 50's, just that a lot of the more unpleasant stuff went on behind closed doors and wasn't spoken about. Not to mention the hidious crimes committed by the state against some of its people in the name of "morality" (Forced adoption, inprisonment and abuse of women who were pregnant out of wedlock the list goes on...). So please, do not delude yourself that there was...

So, with that out of the way, what can we do to reduce the risks and reduce instances of the transmissions of desease? Answers are far ranging, the use of condoms would help dramatically, but also there is the need for massive cultural shifts right accross the world, in the west, well, europe, there is a greater need to overcome the embarresment that comes with asking a persons GP to be tested, then there is the social stigma if you actually catch anything... In places like Africa you have the above (amplified depending on where you go) and a lot less education on the various dangers that unprotected sex entails. And on top of all this, you have lunatics running around (Read, the Catholic church) saying that barrier methods of protection such as condoms actually increase the risks of STD transmission!

There are many many more variables in this question, but one has to wonder at the motives of some people who encorage overpopulation, teach outright and verifiable lies and have the blood of millions on their hands.

Called it!
I took the number from you, but judging on the conditions required for the 2%, 0.1% would likely be correct.

Commando...

...get laid.

UNICORNS ARE REAL YOU ASSHOLE! THEY DO EXIST. I HAVE PROOF! I SEE THEM AND TALK TO THEM AND PET THEM AND SOMETIMES THEY TOUCH ME AND LET ME KISS THEM, AND ONE TIME I SAWED OFF ITS HORN AND GROUND IT UP AND THEN I SMOKED IT AND IT WAS GOOD.

Thanks, that made my sides hurt. Best thing I've read in a while.

Remeber everyone to confess is not always going to Confession but you could also whole heartly ask God for forgiveness and also rember that there is always a nchance to repent.

Have you repented to a unicorn lately?

I apologize for sniping, but I just had to say this. I do wish that our society would put less emphasis on sex as a form of recreation and more emphasis on sex as a vital component of a healthy romantic relationship. Whether, you confine it to marriage or not is you perrogative (I'm gonna try), but the mindless hedonism I'm seeing more and more of really depresses me. :(

I apologize for sniping, but I just had to say this. I do wish that our society would put less emphasis on sex as a form of recreation and more emphasis on sex as a vital component of a healthy romantic relationship. Whether, you confine it to marriage or not is you perrogative (I'm gonna try), but the mindless hedonism I'm seeing more and more of really depresses me. :(


The trick is to experiance the mindless hedonism inside marriage. Works for me!

How about you, Commando3 believe whatever you want to believe, and leave the rest of society alone.

After all, it's no skin off your nose if we end up in hell is it?

And how many times do people need to say this, ABSTINENCE DOESN'T WORK. People still have sex.

Personally, I find it interesting that the Catholic Church takes a stand on sex outside of marriage at all. It would be in their best interests to stay quiet on the subject, lest someone delve into the history of the Church.

Did you know that the Vatican used to run its own brothel? It was shut down after an outbreak of syphilis, and that's when the Church decided that sex outside of marriage was bad.

I also noticed that Commando started this thread off, and then quietly disappeared. He doesn't seem to want to defend his ludicrous statements at all. Of course, I am biased in that I dislike organized religion in general, so I hope he doesn't take that personally. It's not his fault that the Church has managed to brainwash him into actually believing that condoms cause STDs to spread and that type of garbage.

See, thats the problem. YOu want everything exactly defined, everything to be physical. Everything to follow the standards of science, your god. If G-d doesn't have an XYZT location, that means he doesn't exist. You fail to believe that something can stand above science, above what you think is most basic.

Ah, but you see, science (or at least the observable, physical world) is all that matters. If something has no observable effect on the world, than it could very well not exist and the world would go on as it has; therefore, it is assumed it does not exist for all intents and purposes.

There could be an invisible, intangible army of garden gnomes surrounding me right now, but I assume there isn't because there isn't any effect on me by them, ie they don't provide any use.

I find it interesting that anyone who dares to suggest that they may have a given belief system will get shot down on sight as "protelysing", regardless of what they actually said, I don't know perhaps it is the wrong place to discuss such things, but when someone simply dismisses them as being crackers I do find it rather saddening on the whole. Discuss, debate and generally work out these things, but to simply dismiss people because they dare to have beliefs to my mind at least just makes your own stance look and sound rather hollow... But thats just my view.

Pardon my spelling.

And yes, I am an elitist asshole --- with every right to be so.
I've spent more time thinking an obsessing over the meaning of life in the passed four years than anyone here will ever do in their meaningless existence. I've reinvented the philosophical wheel by my own accord, and whether you recognize it or not, my forethought and experience demands a respect greater than that of invisible deities.

Further, the fact that I acknowledge that I truly know nothing --- as all knowledge is mutable --- is a step far above the narcissistic tripe any common diety impresses upon you.

And further, personal delusions don't count as beliefs.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin. And there is punishment for people who are behaving promiscuously. There are 30 various STDs, more than half uncurable. In the 50's where morals were respected, there were 5. You could count them on 1 hand. Now there are 30, many deadly. And there is also a chance of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Many people are using contraception, but the truth is it fails. Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV. The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage! No contraception is going to make sex any safer. As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control. In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.

Yes, because we all know marriage is a holy protective barrier that will always shield you against all possible evils of the world.

Go ahead and marry. Just make sure that your wife never cheats you with soem diseased guy. Oh, yeah. You can't.

Pardon my spelling.

And yes, I am an elitist asshole --- with every right to be so.
I've spent more time thinking an obsessing over the meaning of life in the passed four years than anyone here will ever do in their meaningless existence. I've reinvented the philosophical wheel by my own accord, and whether you recognize it or not, my forethought and experience demands a respect greater than that of invisible deities.

Further, the fact that I acknowledge that I truly know nothing --- as all knowledge is mutable --- is a step far above the narcissistic tripe any common diety impresses upon you.

And further, personal delusions don't count as beliefs.

No worries, my spelling isn't exactly great either, the trick is I've found is to make your mistakes look right :)

Actually I wasn't thinking in that sort of extreme, but if thats how you view yourself who am I to try to convince you otherwise ;)
I mearly thought your posts were a tad on the harsh side in their tone and, a little unnecesary in some of the comments made.

How can you know that you've thought more about the meaning of life then anyone else here? Have you taken a pole? As for your experience and forethought demanding respect, well I don't know you, and quite frankly I don't give respect easily or quickly, so your demands are at least with me falling on deaf ears. Do something to earn it if you feel agrieved about that...

The realisation of how little you know is a very firm start to greater understanding. Know it alls tend to be the exact opposite. Or it could be argued that you are an ignorant "elitist asshole" depending on who else reads that. Personally I go for the former, but then I do try to look for the positive in people as a whole.

I was going to ask how you are defining beliefs and personal delusions but I realise that to get into that would probably end up in a very lengthy war of semantics that would require the pair of us to expend a great amount of energy and almost certainly get us nowhere in our posisions. So if its ok with you I won't go there - am far too busy planning a major network refit and enginning up the security systems I have in place. Not especially difficult, just time consuming.

Right, back on topic...

What was this thread about again? :D

My name is Harry. My native language is not english. My spelling is bad and my vocalbulary is ever worse. I live in Denmark. I also speak German. I also speak a little Swedish and Norwegian.

. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts).

You are wrong, or you do not want to tell the truth. Condoms are about 97% effective over a 5 year periode... if you use them correctly.

I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

Abstinence "Education" is not education. This the reason why you are 170 times more likely to become pregnant as a teen in the USA compared to Denmark. It does not work. It will in fact never work... EVER. If you promote Abstinence "Education" in Africa and refuse people real education, you will cause the death of millions of people. A prober education will prevent allmost all unwanted pregnancies and STD´s.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

You are judgemental and have no connection to what most "ordinary" people would refere to as "reality".

Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control. In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

I see you got values Commando3. But you are not the only one... Remember that!?

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.

Ohhhh dear! I am soooo glad you found the one and only truth in life... the only right choise! Enlighten my plz... tell me what to do next... (Sorry about the sarcasm)!

Harry "the Bastard"

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin.

if God thinks sex is "holy" then He is placing entirely too much emphasis on physical relationships.

Commando3']
Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you.

flat out bald face lies. does your God really like it when you lie to get your way?

Commando3']
And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class

my sex ed class told me that. perhaps your sex ed class sucks because of the "moral majority" and its efforts to promote abstinance-only programs which don't give teens the information they need to protect themselves.

Commando3']
or on MTV.

my understanding is that MTV is Music Television. why would you expect MTV to provide sex ed? shouldn't schools or (heaven forbid) parents be responsible for imparting such information? blaming the television for failing to educate your kids seems silly to me.

Commando3']
The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage!

another series of lies. safe sex campaigns have had a proven, measurable effect at reducing STD infection rates. indeed, programs promoting abstinance only are the ones that have been linked to INCREASED infection rates.

furthermore, the bonds of matrimony are not antibiotic. waiting until you marry does not give you any guarantee when it comes to saying free of STDs; as you yourself have pointed out, there are STDs that may be communicated through non-sexual contact. AIDS springs to mind. being married to somebody doesn't have any effect on your ability to exchange STDs with them, and even if both of you remained virgins until marriage there are still plenty of ways you could be infected and infect each other.

the only 100% safe sex is no sex at all, yet for some reason your God doesn't like that idea (seeing as how He thinks sex is 'holy') so i guess we all have to take our chances.
Commando3']
No contraception is going to make sex any safer.

flat out lie yet again. shame on you.

Commando3']
As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

rates of subscribers to cable television have gone up ever since modern contraception started being widely used. CONTRACEPTION CAUSES CABLE!!!

Commando3']
Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not.

it is possible to sleep with someone who you don't respect, and it is possible to be disrespectful in the sexual choices you make, but it is equally possible to be respectful and to respect your partner.

Commando3']
You are acting selfish and immoral.

nuh uh, you are. :)

Commando3']
If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage.

i respect my parter enough to let them make their own choices. i have yet to have a single romantic partner who believed that staying "pure" for marriage was a wise decision, and i also believe that such "purity" is unwise, so it would have been death to my relationships for me to try to impose your values on myself or my partner.

i've only had one boyfriend, we haven't remained "pure," and it's going on 4 years now...even if the relationship ended tomorrow, it would have been a wonderful relationship. that alone disproves your claim that sex makes a "good relationship" impossible.

if you think that sex is so important that it can destroy any possibility of love, then--like your God--you are placing far too much emphasis on sex. sex is a part of how i express my feelings for my partner, but it is not some all-powerful force that consumes our minds and hearts. sex can only have that kind of power if you give it that much significance in your life.

Commando3']
If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

that much is true; basing a relationship on sex is silly, which is why i don't base relationships on sex. it is quite possible to have a romantic relationship in which you have sex, but which you do not BASE on sex, just like it is possible to have a romantic relationship in which you kiss but which you do not base on kissing.

Commando3']
Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control.
your definition of "immoral" is interesting; promotion of personal choice and responsibility is "immoral," while lying and attempting to force your sexual values on other people is "moral." how charming.

Commando3']
In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

how is having consentual sex disrespectful to my body? i feel that making my own choices and accepting responsibility for them is quite respectful, but blindly obeying somebody else's values and ignoring my own mind would be extremely disrespectful to myself.

Commando3']
In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.
i don't get MTV, never have, nor do i get God. why would i let anybody else make my choices for me?

For some reason, this thread makes me think of the phrase: Death by Bukkakecide!

http://www.lyricsdepot.com/monty-python/every-sperm-is-sacred.html

..."Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great...."

**giggles**

Ahem!

Read Peakes commentary on the bible. It's a scholarly assessment of the bible written by actual christians who'd studied the book for years. It has a foreword written by the archbishop of canterbury. And it very clearly lays out the obvious - the bible is a compendium, a load of stories written by different people and squashed together. There's two creation myths. There's loads of pagan references from around the area. There's even a bit where some guy agrees to worship Yaweh and takes home some soil because local gods could only be worshipped on local ground. Yaweh was the god of a specific location and people, none of this "omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent" stuff. He demanded sacrifice, as all the gods do. Read Job. He doesn't talk about heaven and hell, but describes an afterlife where we're either all dust or floating around in endless misery. And finally, look at all the stuff the horny buggers in the old testament get up to. There's daughters sleeping with fathers, polygamy, incest etc. A Christian can use the old "but only the New Testament counts" argument but, aside from arguments over only four gospels being included, why would an omnipresent god change his mind?

This is beside the point. Yes, morality is slipping, but that's because for many people, once you realise the bible isn't whole and utter truth, you decide to strike out and find morality of your own. And then you hit the *hard* questions, like, "what if logic doesn't work?" "Aren't all first premises built on faith anyway?" "What is goodness?" "What is rightness?" (And here I mean a better answer than "What an ancient hodgepodge of philosophy and mystical insight says...the bit I picked to read over the contradictions anyway"). "What is meaning?" "What is truth?" I"What if we're incapable of grasping any laws that hold morality together?" "What if morality is just social conditioning and there isn't any good and evil?" "If everything has a cause and effect, then aren't all our actions pre-determined anyway?" And if morality is just social conditioning, then anything could be "right".

I have a very strong morality, which is hard to do without walking all over people who aren't sure of themselves. But everyone has to answer those questions themselves and they may come up with a better answer than I did. Unless they're doing something utterly abhorrent to me, to someone unwilling, I don't care. I'm not going to be a mindless puppet to a God with no will of my own. Why would a decent God want that - he or she would want fellow thinkers, people who would try and learn for themselves.

Having sex out of marriage does NOT mean being cheap and easy.

For some reason, this thread makes me think of the phrase: Death by Bukkakecide!That was just a little disturbing.....

agreed.

and as far as the whole sex issue, i think the catholic church should accept that times are changing. it's not possible to expect modern society to be dictated by millenia-old religious norms.

Just because times are changing doesn't make it right! The world views are getting more and more messed up by the day. Just because the world or others are doing it, doesn't make it right.

Although I can tell you are not worth arguing with so.....that's all I have to say. I'm not just talking about sex either.......so many things in society that society says is ok - IS NOT!

By the way I am not Catholic either.

Some of these guys just don't get it. It is holy and sacrid and should be saved for marriage. But then again if they are non-believers or not, if they don't get it........I feel very bad for them.

morality is close to intolerance, which is bad.

tolerance is close to immorality, which is bad.

How do you decide if something can be tolerated or not?

FYI Commando, most of the people on this forum are sardonic agnostics/atheists who take themselves too seriously to consider the presence of God. There's simply not enough reason in their ego for the both of them!
Isnt Pride a capital sin anymore? :confused:
Using one's brain isnt, maybe you should have tried that instead.

Just because times are changing doesn't make it right! The world views are getting more and more messed up by the day. Just because the world or others are doing it, doesn't make it right.

care to elaborate on that? after all, traditional sexual values hold that women shouldn't enjoy sex, men have the right to cheat, rape doesn't matter unless the female in question is a virgin or the property of another man, sexual abuse never happens, love is about putting a penis into a vagina and having a baby result, etc. etc. etc.

i think the sexual values of modern society are a dramatic improvement over the values of the past. would you mind explaining why you feel otherwise?


Although I can tell you are not worth arguing with so.....that's all I have to say.

if you aren't going to argue with somebody, don't respond to their posts and then insist you aren't going to talk about it any more.


I'm not just talking about sex either.......so many things in society that society says is ok - IS NOT!

that's always been the case. society is a group of individuals, not a single collective mind. there are always going to be things the majority believes in that you personally don't like. that's where personal responsibility and character come into play...you don't have to do what "society" tells you to, and you also don't have to force other people to agree with you just so that you can have the security of moving in a big herd.


By the way I am not Catholic either.

could have fooled me :). j/k


Some of these guys just don't get it. It is holy and sacrid and should be saved for marriage. But then again if they are non-believers or not, if they don't get it........I feel very bad for them.
i "get it," in the sense that i understand that is your belief. personally, i believe it is dishonorable to give your life-pledge to somebody before you will give your body to them, and it think it shows a disgusting set of values to be willing to share your love more freely than you share your body. i believe love and honor and trust are far more "holy" than sex. however, i realize you don't share my values, and i frankly don't care either way. your values are contemptable to me, but i know they are the values that work for YOU, and that's all that matters.

try not to spend so much of your time concerning yourself with other peoples' sex lives. you'll be much happier.

The only way to correct the moral degeneration of society is for all of humanity to willingly follow God's laws of love. This will never happen in this world, which I why I so look forward to going Home. I will still do my best to stem the tide, but I realize that until the earth is made new, selfishness will reak its havoc on this planet.

Did you know that the Vatican used to run its own brothel? It was shut down after an outbreak of syphilis, and that's when the Church decided that sex outside of marriage was bad.
I don't mean this as a challange but can you site source please? I'd really love to tell this to some Church going "friends" of mine.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates...

You mentioned MTV four times, but Hollywood only once, and completely forgot to rip secular Jews and homosexuals.

Weak.

The only way to correct the moral degeneration of society is for all of humanity to willingly follow God's laws of love. This will never happen in this world, which I why I so look forward to going Home. I will still do my best to stem the tide, but I realize that until the earth is made new, selfishness will reak its havoc on this planet.

If you truly, truly believed that, you'd go and help people in some place where people who only have one lifetime are afraid to go.

So unless you're taking a break between ebola outbreaks to chat on the net... quit being so selfish.

Commando3']
<snip>

...class or on MTV...

</snip>

<snip>

even though MTV and VH1 might say so.


</snip>


<snip>

...And MTV/VH1/Hollywood ...

</snip>

Anyone else getting the feeling that Commando is playing one of those memory games where you all sit in the circle and gradually add things to the list. Who ever forget an item is out and the winner is the last remaining.

This thread makes me hate my eyes.

http://tn7.deviantart.com/300W/fs6.deviantart.com/i/2005/045/1/3/free_speech_by_grneys.jpg

From: http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/15169794/

I just bet I'm going to roast in hell for having sex with my husband after only meeting him two hours prior to the act. Nevermind that's the only man I've been with I'm still going striaght to hell for having sex before marriage. BooHoo.

This thread makes me hate my eyes.
That's okay RPP, I'm sure the thread hates you because of your eyes too.

Commando3']Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile.

I heard of that chemical reaction. Is that the one involving the magical fairies? Honestly, this "various chemical reactions" bit reveals you as speaking so deep out of your other side that I'd hesitate to believe anything else in your post from this sentence on.

And condoms? 17% of the time they fail.

As I said. Statistics, or I won't believe you. After that 10-fold sterility nonsense, I won't believe a number in your post unless backed up by 3 independent sources.

As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage!

And I suppose the magical fairies take care of that too? As soon as you exchange rings, some magic makes you immune to any and all sexual diseases?

As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

As before. Source in triplicate. At least one atheist.

No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral.

You know, your point does come across much better when you stop spouting pseudoscience. Just stick to morals and ethics, and people will leave you alone.

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV.

Trust a book written two thousand years ago by people who thought the Earth was flat, or trust a couple of people who would do anything to make money with what they produce?

Thanks, I'll stay agnostic and rabidly anti-TV.

Commando3'] The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin.


Well, then it's time to promote marriage for homosexuals, right?

Well, then it's time to promote marriage for homosexuals, right?

hear hear.... that way the church can't complaim that we are inmorral or evil.. bonus

Anyone else getting the feeling that Commando is playing one of those memory games where you all sit in the circle and gradually add things to the list. Who ever forget an item is out and the winner is the last remaining.

MTV
MTV and VH1
MTV, VH1, Hollywood
MTV, VH1, Hollywood, the gays
MTV, VH1, Hollywood, the gays, the universities
MTV, VH1, Hollywood, the gays, the universities, the internet...

let's keep it rolling, people! it's the Perfect Pyramid of Papist Paranoia!

Oh goody! I missed commando. Now if we can just get he and JesusSaves and VoteEarly all on at the sane time. Maybe throw Kahta in the mix.
*dances gleefully and laughs maniacly*

EDIT: "sane time" what a hoot! I'm so funny, and on accident.

Oh goody! I missed commando. Now if we can just get he and JesusSaves and VoteEarly all on at the sane time. Maybe throw Kahta in the mix.
*dances gleefully and laughs maniacly*
That would be profoundly difficult, as VoteEarly is no more.

Oh goody! I missed commando. Now if we can just get he and JesusSaves and VoteEarly all on at the sane time. Maybe throw Kahta in the mix.
*dances gleefully and laughs maniacly*
i think you can cross VE off that list...word on the street is that he is deet on sight now.

What a shame. Oh well, some other nut will fill the space.

What a shame. Oh well, some other nut will fill the space.
yeah, my working hypothesis is that nut jobs reproduced by mitosis; one minute you have a single nut job, then zip! now you've got two!

yeah, my working hypothesis is that nut jobs reproduced by mitosis; one minute you have a single nut job, then zip! now you've got two!
:eek:
You mean like how gay people reproduce?

:D

:eek:
You mean like how gay people reproduce?

:D
no, silly, gay people reproduce by kidnapping small children and forcing them to watch Bravo until they convert.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

yada yada yada etc etc.



you moralistic shit, you live your life the way you wish and I'll do the same, don't think you have a right to tell me or anyone else how to live.

If you love someone and trust them implicitly then why not, its a natural way to show affection. You're catholic doctorine of abstinence is sickening you have turned a beautiful act into something to be ashamed of, your whole religion is based around telling people that they are unworthy and that they are in some way unfit, dirty and "sinful".

And as a final debunkal, I'd like to point out that while MTV might not be the best role model, unlike God I can, to a reasonable degree of certainty, prove that it exists

If I'm stranded on a desert island with a woman for a year, and we end up having sex (let's assume that we were both single on arrival), is it a sin because there's no priest to bless the event?

If we end up stranded there for twenty years, and have children, is that a sin?

I don't think so. I have no problem talking to God myself - or keeping my promise to a woman - without having some representative of an organized religion wave his hands in front of my face and say "it's OK; the pope says you're licensed".

If you truly, truly believed that, you'd go and help people in some place where people who only have one lifetime are afraid to go.

So unless you're taking a break between ebola outbreaks to chat on the net... quit being so selfish.

That's a little insulting, but I do work with and for the severely mentally ill and developmentally disabled. Even Christ didn't spend all His time in ministering to the poor and needy. He spent time for Himself in communion with God and He spent a very large quantity of His time talking to His friends. Now I'm not claiming to be Christ's equal, but one does not have to foriegn lands to live by God's laws of love for Him and for others.

you moralistic shit, you live your life the way you wish and I'll do the same, don't think you have a right to tell me or anyone else how to live.

If you love someone and trust them implicitly then why not, its a natural way to show affection. You're catholic doctorine of abstinence is sickening you have turned a beautiful act into something to be ashamed of, your whole religion is based around telling people that they are unworthy and that they are in some way unfit, dirty and "sinful".

And as a final debunkal, I'd like to point out that while MTV might not be the best role model, unlike God I can, to a reasonable degree of certainty, prove that it exists
Stay away from flame terrirory ... knock off the personal attacks

Voltaire once said, "I don't agree with a thing you say but I defend to the death your right to say it."
I will not comment on my personal views on the matter, but despite my admitted lack of experience with these forums, I think it's obvious that most people here are not especially enthralled with organized religion.
Therefore I would point out that there are perhaps more receptive audiences to Catholic doctrine than at this particular site.
Now that I'm finished saying that I find it amusing how many people immediately jumped to the attack in this thread. More people seem to care about hypothetical restraints to their own hedonism than about any other topic open for debate. That isn't just amusing, it's also a little bit sad.
Oh, and I'm not Catholic, and never will be.

Commando3']I was just at a conference with some fellow Catholics and we were discussing the importance of abstinence and how to promote it. So, I thought I'd share some of what we discussed with nationstates.

We agree that sex in itself is not bad. As a matter of fact, it is holy and God wants us to have it. There are boundaries however. The boundaries? Marriage. Sex within marriage is fine and holy, but sex outside of marriage is dangerous and sin. And there is punishment for people who are behaving promiscuously. There are 30 various STDs, more than half uncurable. In the 50's where morals were respected, there were 5. You could count them on 1 hand. Now there are 30, many deadly. And there is also a chance of getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. Many people are using contraception, but the truth is it fails. Birth control pills actually increase the chance of getting an STD through various chemical reactions, and also make it 10 times more likely you will end up sterile. And condoms? 17% of the time they fail. No condom will help you. And even if it helps somewhat against AIDS, there is no way it will help against HPV (warts). All it takes to get warts is to have skin contact. Thats something they aren't telling you in sex ed. class or on MTV. The whole "safe sex" campaign is actually helping to spread STDs, especially ones like HPV where there is a ZERO percent chance a condom will help. As for "safe sex" there is only one kind. Sex within marriage! No contraception is going to make sex any safer. As a matter of fact ever since contraception has started being widely used STD rates have gone UP.

Then there is a whole issue of respect. For you kids in school, are you really respecting someone by sleeping with them? No, you are not. You are acting selfish and immoral. If you want a good relationship with your girlfriend or boyfriend you will respect them enough so that you can have a good time while remaining pure for marriage. If your relationship relies on sex then trust me it isn't going to last, even though MTV and VH1 might say so.

Now, even though there are many facts such as these, the culture we live in is trying to stop them. You can scarcely see a movie in theatre without immoral sex. And MTV/VH1/Hollywood are promoting immoral sex left and right, along with abortion (child murder) and birth control. In secular movies immoral sex is shown as a goal? How is disrespecting your body and creator a goal?

In the end, it comes down to listening to God or MTV. I hope you choose God. By saving sex for marriage you are not only acting moral, but possibly saving your own life and dignity.


Wow. Your post just served to make me even more glad that the Orthodox Church, of which I am a part, broke off from the papacy when it did. Thanks for making me feel better about my own church!

FYI Commando, most of the people on this forum are sardonic agnostics/atheists who take themselves too seriously to consider the presence of God. There's simply not enough reason in their ego for the both of them!

That or they've been way too throughly brainwashed by modernist and/or post-modernist (yes, someone can be post rationalistcally anti-religious and a deconstructionist at the same time - look at Knoot :) ) to accept any argument.

But, yeah, I generally agree with that post.

That's a little insulting, but I do work with and for the severely mentally ill and developmentally disabled. Even Christ didn't spend all His time in ministering to the poor and needy. He spent time for Himself in communion with God and He spent a very large quantity of His time talking to His friends. Now I'm not claiming to be Christ's equal, but one does not have to foriegn lands to live by God's laws of love for Him and for others.

Atheists can do that. Go help people where having an afterlife is useful. People of the 'going to hell' variety only have this lifetime, so we have an excuse to be more self-oriented within it.

And you're just making Jesus sound selfish as well.

You have an afterlife. All this 'friends' stuff is a waste of time. You have all eternity to catch up with them later, no?

--

And I do appologize if this seems aggressive, flamy, or trollish. Your earlier statement simply struck me as being vastly hypocritical considering your beliefs, and I have a habit of calling people on it. In all honesty, I prefer you not running around doing missionary work, because I see such as harmful.

Stay away from flame terrirory ... knock off the personal attacks

I would, i really would but these catholics really make me sick

I would, i really would but these catholics really make me sick

That's like saying that Jews or Muslims make you sick. If you mean that the way they feel the need to impose there beliefs on everyone else makes you feel sick, fine. I find the doctrine of the Catholic Church to be somewhat amusing, myself. Not abstinence itself, since it is a perfectly reasonable belief, but other parts of their theology.