NationStates Jolt Archive

Legislators show criticism for center’s ban on prayer
Group went too far in adding restriction, they say
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


RUSSELLVILLE — Three state legislators were critical Saturday of a prohibition on public prayer at the Pope County Senior Activity Center.

The county owns the building but Friendship Community Care runs the program and recently announced the new prayer policy.

Sen. Sharon Trusty, R-Russellville, and Reps. Stan Berry, RDover, and Michael Lamoureux, R-Russellville, said Friendship went too far in restricting public prayer. They said the voluntary prayer before lunch did not violate the law.

The legislators had helped secure state funds for construction of the center during the most recent legislative session. They expressed their objections about the prayer policy at a legislative briefing Saturday at the Russellville Chamber of Commerce.

Trusty said she began receiving numerous calls from her constituents after the policy went into effect.

"Personally, I’m very disappointed that they went that direction," she said. "I don’t know what happened to the word voluntary. I don’t feel anyone’s rights have been infringed upon by allowing our senior citizens to pray publicly. What I see now is they’re keeping people from expressing their beliefs."

Lamoureux, who also serves on Friendship’s board of directors, said Friendship should reexamine its new policy. "What the administration did went too far," Lamoureux said, adding that board members did not vote on the policy.

But Cindy Mahan, chief executive officer of Friendship, said the organization had been threatened with a lawsuit if the public prayers didn’t stop. She said Friendship got an opinion from its attorney and ultimately made the change. In a letter to center patrons, Friendship says that as a state-funded institution, the center must be conscious of the principle of separation of church and state.

Mahan suggested that opponents of the ban ask the state attorney general for an opinion.

Berry said the public prayer ban was contrary to the practice of a number of other governmental groups that pray before meetings, such as the Arkansas General Assembly.

"Our first order of business in the state House of Representatives is to pray," Berry said. "If someone doesn’t want to pray, they can step outside and not take part. It would be a terrible thing to do away with that prayer."

Trusty said the state Senate allows any minister to come lead the daily prayer, and suggested the center look at a similar practice


I will say this ... in the unlikely event I wind up in a senior home partially supported by state funding and they tell me I can't pray anywhere I like, anytime I like, they'll have one majorly pissed-off "senior veteran" on their hands! Even at ninety, I'll give them a war they wouldn't friggin' believe!

Were they praying silently to themselves before meals, or were they wanting group led prayers. I personally don't care if someone wants to pray silently to themselves, but I don't want to be bothered with it, just like they wouldn't want to hear me vocalize my views/opinions.

Were they praying silently to themselves before meals, or were they wanting group led prayers. I personally don't care if someone wants to pray silently to themselves, but I don't want to be bothered with it, just like they wouldn't want to hear me vocalize my views/opinions.
Insufficient information.

Now, I don't believe in any kind of god, but if some punks told me I couldn't pray, I'd be leading group prayers every 10 minutes, out of spite.

Now, I don't believe in any kind of god, but if some punks told me I couldn't pray, I'd be leading group prayers every 10 minutes, out of spite.
Hehehe! I wonder if meditating out loud qualifies? :)

Hehehe! I wonder if meditating out loud qualifies? :)
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...

What I find ridiculous is the conflation that often occours in 'outrages' of this nature, to wit-

The county owns the building but Friendship Community Care runs the program and recently announced the new prayer policy.

It is a prayer 'policy.' It is organized and led, situationly compulsory, notably outlined underneath-
"If someone doesn’t want to pray, they can step outside and not take part.
If the heathens don't like it they can get up and leave...

But rather than recongnize the pressure that an organized and led prayer creates (which I suspect that they not only know about but are counting on) they paint it thusly-


What I see now is they’re keeping people from expressing their beliefs."
And in this light I am to be outraged, OUTRAGED! How dare they preven-wait a second, they aren't keeping anyone from doing anything. People can, and will, still pray before thier breakfast. They can even say it out loud, there is not restriction except in the language used to create the outrage.

What is being banned is the level of organization. Lead your own prayer.

This conflation is further outlined in the self-rightious rage here
I will say this ... in the unlikely event I wind up in a senior home partially supported by state funding and they tell me I can't pray anywhere I like, anytime I like, they'll have one majorly pissed-off "senior veteran" on their hands! Even at ninety, I'll give them a war they wouldn't friggin' believe!
Except no one is saying you or anyone else can't pray, they are saying you can't impose a prayer on me.

What continues to amaze me is the failure to recognize that these protections are there for the religiuos a much as they are there for the non-religous. I imagine we'd have just as much of a pissed off 'senior-veterian' had the center decided that five times a day you where led in a 'voluntary' prayer to Mecca.

In short, we're not stupid. Quit trying to conflate stopping the imposition of prayer as a ban on prayer itself.

I think it's silly. No matter if they were all joining hands in a circle to pray out loud or what. What is it hurting? As long as their prayers were positive with a good heart and not bashing the other folks.

I think it's silly. No matter if they were all joining hands in a circle to pray out loud or what. What is it hurting? As long as their prayers were positive with a good heart and not bashing the other folks.
My point exactly!

Where in NC are you? I'm in Kernersville, right between Winston-Salem and Greensboro.

What I find ridiculous is the conflation that often occours in 'outrages' of this nature, to wit-

It is a prayer 'policy.' It is organized and led, situationly compulsory, notably outlined underneath-

If the heathens don't like it they can get up and leave...

But rather than recongnize the pressure that an organized and led prayer creates (which I suspect that they not only know about but are counting on) they paint it thusly-

And in this light I am to be outraged, OUTRAGED! How dare they preven-wait a second, they aren't keeping anyone from doing anything. People can, and will, still pray before thier breakfast. They can even say it out loud, there is not restriction except in the language used to create the outrage.

What is being banned is the level of organization. Lead your own prayer.

This conflation is further outlined in the self-rightious rage here

Except no one is saying you or anyone else can't pray, they are saying you can't impose a prayer on me.

What continues to amaze me is the failure to recognize that these protections are there for the religiuos a much as they are there for the non-religous. I imagine we'd have just as much of a pissed off 'senior-veterian' had the center decided that five times a day you where led in a 'voluntary' prayer to Mecca.

In short, we're not stupid. Quit trying to conflate stopping the imposition of prayer as a ban on prayer itself.
This is too fine a distinction. It amounts to a ban on prayer by those wishing to do so, as best I can tell from the article.

What I find ridiculous is the conflation that often occours in 'outrages' of this nature, to wit-


It is a prayer 'policy.' It is organized and led, situationly compulsory, notably outlined underneath-

If the heathens don't like it they can get up and leave...

But rather than recongnize the pressure that an organized and led prayer creates (which I suspect that they not only know about but are counting on) they paint it thusly-



And in this light I am to be outraged, OUTRAGED! How dare they preven-wait a second, they aren't keeping anyone from doing anything. People can, and will, still pray before thier breakfast. They can even say it out loud, there is not restriction except in the language used to create the outrage.

What is being banned is the level of organization. Lead your own prayer.

This conflation is further outlined in the self-rightious rage here

Except no one is saying you or anyone else can't pray, they are saying you can't impose a prayer on me.

What continues to amaze me is the failure to recognize that these protections are there for the religiuos a much as they are there for the non-religous. I imagine we'd have just as much of a pissed off 'senior-veterian' had the center decided that five times a day you where led in a 'voluntary' prayer to Mecca.

In short, we're not stupid. Quit trying to conflate stopping the imposition of prayer as a ban on prayer itself.

Context, get some. That post is drivel that makes no sense and seems to have been made in a complete absence of the facts. They are banning public prayer, not led group prayer. They are saying you, or anyone else, can't pray in public.

Interesting situation. Friendship Community Care (http://friendship.state.ar.us/about/about.htm) is a private organization. If they don't want to allow prayer during lunch then legislators aren't in a position to comment on it. On the other hand, the program is being offered from a public building. I would assume that this is a grey area in the state's law. All I can say is that they're going to fight over it and Friendship Community Care will probably end up yielding fairly early in the fight. Surely they realize that spoken prayer isn't hurting anyone. Not one 70 year old atheist can seriously claim that the prayer is trying to indoctrinate him or bring his beliefs in to question. People that are offended by prayer need to get some thicker skin, especially in this day and age when proudly displaying your religious fervor is the in thing.

But rather than recongnize the pressure that an organized and led prayer creates (which I suspect that they not only know about but are counting on) they paint it thusly

I can't see that being the case. We're talking about seniors here. I would hope that by the time I'm their age I'll have decided what my views are and be able to stand strong in the face of something as small as a group in prayer if my views happened to be that religion is just superstition.

This is too fine a distinction. It amounts to a ban on prayer by those wishing to do so, as best I can tell from the article.
What are you kidding me?

recently announced the new prayer policy.
"If someone doesn’t want to pray, they can step outside and not take part.
This is led prayer. The concern is over leading a prayer. The only ones construing this as a ban on prayer all together are the people trying to lead the group in a prayer. Disingenious.

I find it only slightly funny that you used the word asinine involving laws concerning an old folks home.

What are you kidding me?



This is led prayer. The concern is over leading a prayer. The only ones construing this as a ban on prayer all together are the people trying to lead the group in a prayer. Disingenious.

Are you simply trying to be a troll?

The first one is the annoucnement that they are banning public prayer.

The second is a statement by the Arkansas General Assembly.

Christ man, did you even read it?

This is led prayer.

It doesn't say that anywhere in the article.

Context, get some. That post is drivel that makes no sense and seems to have been made in a complete absence of the facts. They are banning public prayer, not led group prayer. They are saying you, or anyone else, can't pray in public.
I quoted text that indicates it is led prayer. Again, it is a-
new prayer policy. that if you don't like you can be excluded, oh I'm sorry, this-
"If someone doesn’t want to pray, they can step outside and not take part.
Leave. Not very publicly inclusive in a public building, is it?

Now, point to where they say you yourself can't pray to your hearts content. Provide me with that context.

i don't think it's asinine, but that's only because i feel like being dificult and argumentative. you're wrong and old, eutrusca! :D

I quoted text that indicates it is led prayer. Again, it is a-
that if you don't like you can be excluded, oh I'm sorry, this-

Leave. Not very publicly inclusive in a public building, is it?

Now, point to where they say you yourself can't pray to your hearts content. Provide me with that context.

I did already.

The 2nd statement is made by a member of the Arkansas General Assembly, about the Arkansas General Assembly.

The first statement is a policy that bans prayer. Not one that makes it group led.

Cheers.

Leave. Not very publicly inclusive in a public building, is it?

Now, point to where they say you yourself can't pray to your hearts content. Provide me with that context.

You really think they'll get mad at you for staying and not praying? They won't if they don't want someone punching them in the nose.

Edit: Arkansas constitution (http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/data/constitution/const1.html#Sec24Religiousliberty) has something to say about disallowing prayer in a program that is state funded (or partially, in this case).

http://www.couriernews.com/story.asp?ID=8095
The one to two minutes of prayer prior to the noon meal at the Pope County Senior Activity Center

b-b-but I wanna pray...well you can-
Announcements prior to lunch will still be allowed, but seniors wishing to pray are asked to return to their table and “politely pray over your food, or the center may choose to have a moment of silence before the meal.”

So-you all still get to pray all you want. I assume this takes care of your outrage and we can all get on with our lives.

http://www.couriernews.com/story.asp?ID=8095


b-b-but I wanna pray...well you can-


So-you all still get to pray all you want. I assume this takes care of your outrage and we can all get on with our lives.

:shrug: Doesn't change the fact that your earlier posts were drivel and were vast misrepresentations of the article.

:shrug: Doesn't change the fact that your earlier posts were drivel and were vast misrepresentations of the article.
Weak. You read into the article what you wanted, and I called that reading. Turns out I was right.

Weak. You read into the article what you wanted, and I called that reading. Turns out I was right.

Nope, you are still wrong.

The policy referred to by your first quote is still the policy that "banned" prayer, not a policy that enforced prayer.

The second quote is still something said about Arkansas General Assembly by a member of the Arkansas General Assembly and still has nothing to do with the Old Folks Home.

What is weak is your insentience on deliberately trying to misrepresent an article.

EDIT: You know what? Never mind. You want to salvage something after being fished in, go right ahead...

sounds asinine to me (and I'm atheist!)

My point exactly!

Where in NC are you? I'm in Kernersville, right between Winston-Salem and Greensboro.


You're kidding .. I'm in Kernersville.. on Union Cross Rd. Between 40 and Glenn lmao

BTW Howdy Neighbor :p

EDIT: You know what? Never mind. You want to salvage something after being fished in, go right ahead...

I'm not salvaging anything. I'm repeating what I said earlier. At this point I care very little about whether or not they are banning prayer. Your statements were wrong and they were inaccurate and they were drivel. You are apparently right when it comes to the overall nature of the ban. Doesn't change the fact that you were a troll and an idiot for trying to draw the link you did between those two quotes of yours.

Had you posted that other article instead of Shooting yourself in the foot by pulling two entirely separate quotes out of context and trying to act as if they were connected no one would think you were simply being an ass.