NationStates Jolt Archive

Many of you will scoff. Some of you will call me a liar or on drugs. Some of you will think me a complete lunatic who should not be allowed in civilized society.

However, I am not afraid of being ostracized, hence, I will share my story for those who have asked me to ....

I was in the shower, of all places, when the water suddenly stopped. I was visited by an image of Isa (The prophet Jesus) who said to me, "There is a place to which I will guide you that you may learn the Truth. Dress now and follow."

Much to my wife's surprise, I got dressed, told her I had to go away for a little while, and left. She said it was like I was very calm and aware, but a little asleep.

I got in the van and drove. I had no idea where I was going, but some part of me knew I would know when I got there. Something in my head guided my hands and took me where I needed to go. I ended up at a Mosque.

I paused in the parking lot and wondered to myself just why I was there when the vision came back to me and the voice said, "This is the house of your Lord. Go into it and be comforted."

I walked inside ... wet hair, still a little soapy, water spotted clothes, and found many brothers there. One asked me, "Do you need something, brother?" and the words fell out of my mouth, in Arabic, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". I do not know Arabic and had no idea what this was, but fell to my knees at that point and believe I was kissed by Allah. I know now that I declared shahadah.

I stayed in that Mosque for 3 days. I learned from the brothers and the Imam and walked out a Muslim.

Yeah ... it's a true story. I am an educated man, a rational man, a worldly man, and not a person who is given over to emotions. Perhaps it was simply a moment of psychosis, but a moment of psychosis that had me drive to a Mosque. Not to the nearest Mosque, mind you, or the one I was familiar with, but to one I had no idea even existed in the first place. I had been to Mosques before in order to study a little Qur'an and try to learn some Arabic, but joining the faith was not anything that had occured to me prior to this event.

I suppose that's my revelation. Not very global, but it changed my life.

There ya go, folks.

Many of you will scoff. Some of you will call me a liar or on drugs. Some of you will think me a complete lunatic who should not be allowed in civilized society.

However, I am not afraid of being ostracized, hence, I will share my story for those who have asked me to ....

I was in the shower, of all places, when the water suddenly stopped. I was visited by an image of Isa (The prophet Jesus) who said to me, "There is a place to which I will guide you that you may learn the Truth. Dress now and follow."

Much to my wife's surprise, I got dressed, told her I had to go away for a little while, and left. She said it was like I was very calm and aware, but a little asleep.

I got in the van and drove. I had no idea where I was going, but some part of me knew I would know when I got there. Something in my head guided my hands and took me where I needed to go. I ended up at a Mosque.

I paused in the parking lot and wondered to myself just why I was there when the vision came back to me and the voice said, "This is the house of your Lord. Go into it and be comforted."

I walked inside ... wet hair, still a little soapy, water spotted clothes, and found many brothers there. One asked me, "Do you need something, brother?" and the words fell out of my mouth, in Arabic, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". I do not know Arabic and had no idea what this was, but fell to my knees at that point and believe I was kissed by Allah. I know now that I declared shahadah.

I stayed in that Mosque for 3 days. I learned from the brothers and the Imam and walked out a Muslim.

Yeah ... it's a true story. I am an educated man, a rational man, a worldly man, and not a person who is given over to emotions. Perhaps it was simply a moment of psychosis, but a moment of psychosis that had me drive to a Mosque. Not to the nearest Mosque, mind you, or the one I was familiar with, but to one I had no idea even existed in the first place. I had been to Mosques before in order to study a little Qur'an and try to learn some Arabic, but joining the faith was not anything that had occured to me prior to this event.

I suppose that's my revelation. Not very global, but it changed my life.

There ya go, folks.

yowza. good on jesus.

Never heard of something like that happening before...Especially in the shower...Makes you wonder what God does in his spare time.

Anyway, regardless of how you found your religion, you are obviously happy with it.

I don't know why people would critisize you. You seem like a nice guy, who has a strong connection with both the physical and spiritual world. That's balance! That's something that should be praised!

People who critisize you for converting, or call you a druggie...Screw 'em, not worth your energy.

Good luck in the future brother!

Interesting story. So after this experience, you simply accepted that this is what you were meant to do? What about the rational man thing...as in, did you entertain any doubts that this wan't the real thing, just some fantasy, some anomaly or thing that really had nothing to do with who you really are?just curious.
I know that I would have some serious doubts about my sanity if this happened to me, and I'd be likely to ignore it.

Well, I'm a bit skeptical, but meh. Whatever you wish. 'Tis your faith, your religion.

I know that I would have some serious doubts about my sanity if this happened to me, and I'd be likely to ignore it.

Meh ... I've never doubted my sanity.

I got drunk once, and fell into a fairly deep state of meditation while a fairly raucous party was going on around me. Only relevant because I can't explain why it happened but it did, but accepted it.

I got drunk once, and fell into a fairly deep state of meditation while a fairly raucous party was going on around me. Only relevant because I can't explain why it happened but it did, but accepted it.

lol ... well ... I hadn't touched a drop of alcohol for a month when this occured.

Hmmm...Out of curiosity, how did you know this was the "prophet" Jesus? Did he announce it? Or did he look like the popular description?

Hmmm...Out of curiosity, how did you know this was the "prophet" Jesus? Did he announce it? Or did he look like the popular description?

He wore a nametag.

No ... I don't know how I knew ... I just ... knew.

He was short (of course, I'm 6'4 so everyone is), bearded, wore loose white clothing trimmed with blue, had short hair (but thick, not really curly).

His hair was dark brown with dark red tints to it and had very gentle baby brown eyes.

What I never get about revelations, is, supposing that this is the truth, why are you so lucky to get a vision, when all the rest of us just have to figure it out for ourselves? It seems just a bit unfair, doesn't it?

What I never get about revelations, is, supposing that this is the truth, why are you so lucky to get a vision, when all the rest of us just have to figure it out for ourselves? It seems just a bit unfair, doesn't it?

I don't know. That's not a question I can answer. I do not believe I am in any way more blessed or more righteous than anybody else on the planet. I simply received a message.

I cannot tell you why I received that message.

I simply did.

He wore a nametag.
You had me at that.

No ... I don't know how I knew ... I just ... knew.
Lost me at that.

Name tags on religious prophets are cool.

And you wern't on drugs, just hallucinating because of the water.
Were you singing in the shower?

Seriously, I don't ostracise you, but I do find this funny.
And as long as you're not claiming he came and told you to shoot up a school, then it doesn't really matter how you found what you believe, just that you believe it.

And you wern't on drugs, just hallucinating because of the water.
Were you singing in the shower?


Not on drugs ... but I may have been humming.

He wore a nametag.

No ... I don't know how I knew ... I just ... knew.

He was short (of course, I'm 6'4 so everyone is), bearded, wore loose white clothing trimmed with blue, had short hair (but thick, not really curly).

His hair was dark brown with dark red tints to it and had very gentle baby brown eyes.

Just a question. How long was his beard? I've always been fascinated by this question.

Just a question. How long was his beard? I've always been fascinated by this question.

Not very. It was longer than "trimmed", but didn't cover his neck.

Not very. It was longer than "trimmed", but didn't cover his neck.

Thought so. There's a part of the bible that says it's disgraceful to have a long beard (don't quote me on that)

Thought so. There's a part of the bible that says it's disgraceful to have a long beard (don't quote me on that)


I don't remember that part, myself, but I do know what he looked like.

Fascinating. I don't really believe it (not a personal thing, but one must be skeptical when it comes to the internet) Hey, what faith were you before you became Muslim? Or were you an atheist?

Fascinating. I don't really believe it (not a personal thing, but one must be skeptical when it comes to the internet) Hey, what faith were you before you became Muslim? Or were you an atheist?

Jewish, right?

Fascinating. I don't really believe it (not a personal thing, but one must be skeptical when it comes to the internet) Hey, what faith were you before you became Muslim? Or were you an atheist?

I was an Orthodox (traditional) Jew with a strong family heritage of my Native American ancestry.

I am just left to reflect on how a "man of God" would have "One Nation under yo mama" as his "quote"...

I gotta say I don't believe it, someone so touched wouldn't be so insensitive.

Regards,
Gaar

Many of you will scoff. Some of you will call me a liar or on drugs. Some of you will think me a complete lunatic who should not be allowed in civilized society.

However, I am not afraid of being ostracized, hence, I will share my story for those who have asked me to ....

I was in the shower, of all places, when the water suddenly stopped. I was visited by an image of Isa (The prophet Jesus) who said to me, "There is a place to which I will guide you that you may learn the Truth. Dress now and follow."

Much to my wife's surprise, I got dressed, told her I had to go away for a little while, and left. She said it was like I was very calm and aware, but a little asleep.

I got in the van and drove. I had no idea where I was going, but some part of me knew I would know when I got there. Something in my head guided my hands and took me where I needed to go. I ended up at a Mosque.

I paused in the parking lot and wondered to myself just why I was there when the vision came back to me and the voice said, "This is the house of your Lord. Go into it and be comforted."

I walked inside ... wet hair, still a little soapy, water spotted clothes, and found many brothers there. One asked me, "Do you need something, brother?" and the words fell out of my mouth, in Arabic, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". I do not know Arabic and had no idea what this was, but fell to my knees at that point and believe I was kissed by Allah. I know now that I declared shahadah.

I stayed in that Mosque for 3 days. I learned from the brothers and the Imam and walked out a Muslim.

Yeah ... it's a true story. I am an educated man, a rational man, a worldly man, and not a person who is given over to emotions. Perhaps it was simply a moment of psychosis, but a moment of psychosis that had me drive to a Mosque. Not to the nearest Mosque, mind you, or the one I was familiar with, but to one I had no idea even existed in the first place. I had been to Mosques before in order to study a little Qur'an and try to learn some Arabic, but joining the faith was not anything that had occured to me prior to this event.

I suppose that's my revelation. Not very global, but it changed my life.

There ya go, folks.


.. almost unsettling since im a roman cathlic and for us Jesus IS god.. interesting he would tell you truth would be found in a mosque instead of a chruch ::shrugs::

I am just left to reflect on how a "man of God" would have "One Nation under yo mama" as his "quote"...

I gotta say I don't believe it, someone so touched wouldn't be so insensitive.

Regards,
Gaar
LOL!

.. almost unsettling since im a roman cathlic and for us Jesus IS god.. interesting he would tell you truth would be found in a mosque instead of a chruch ::shrugs::

In Islam, Jesus is a Muslim.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Intro/islamic_jesus.html

"Gaar", who are you talking about?

"Gaar", who are you talking about?
Keru.

In Islam, Jesus is a Muslim.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Intro/islamic_jesus.html
According to Muslims. Actually, how do Muslims explain Jesus stating he was "the Son of God"?

I am just left to reflect on how a "man of God" would have "One Nation under yo mama" as his "quote"...

I gotta say I don't believe it, someone so touched wouldn't be so insensitive.

Regards,
Gaar

Islam preaches that nationality is a sin. To pledge allegiance to a flag or a country is improper. All alegiance is due to Allah and only Allah.

In Islam, Jesus is a Muslim.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Intro/islamic_jesus.html

Interesting, since there was no such thing while Jesus was on Earth...

Jesus was a Jew, he couldn't be Christian since he hadn't died for our sins yet... :p

Regards,
Gaar

According to Muslims. Actually, how do Muslims explain Jesus stating he was "the Son of God"?

He didn't. When Jesus accepted that he was a "Son of God", he was fulfilling his own teaching that "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the Sons of God".

He accepted that he was a peacemaker.

Islam preaches that nationality is a sin. To pledge allegiance to a flag or a country is improper. All alegiance is due to Allah and only Allah.

So that justifies you insulting everyone elses Mothers?

Again, I believe a man touched by a God or a Prophet even would never be so insensitive.

You didn't HAVE to put anything there, but you CHOOSE to put an insult...

I don't believe that a man touched by Divinity would do such a thing.

Regards,
Gaar

Interesting, since there was no such thing while Jesus was on Earth...

Jesus was a Jew, he couldn't be Christian since he hadn't died for our sins yet... :p

"Muslim" refers to anyone who has submitted themselves to Allah. Abraham, who was neither Christian nor Jew, submitted himself to Allah (or, as he called it, "Elaw") and was, therefore, Muslim.

So that justifies you insulting everyone elses Mothers?

Again, I believe a man touched by a God or a Prophet even would never be so insensitive.

You didn't HAVE to put anything there, but you CHOOSE to put an insult...

I don't believe that a man touched by Divinity would do such a thing.

Regards,
Gaar
Somehow, I think it's a joke. And somehow, I don't think it was intended as an insult at all.

Then again, I might be wrong...
:D

So that justifies you insulting everyone elses Mothers?


Where did I insult your mother?

"Muslim" refers to anyone who has submitted themselves to Allah. Abraham, who was neither Christian nor Jew, submitted himself to Allah (or, as he called it, "Elaw") and was, therefore, Muslim.

Like animals. The Qur'an says that animals are innocent and submissive making them Muslims. Just because they don't run around and declare themselves Muslims doesn't mean they aren't.

So that justifies you insulting everyone elses Mothers?


:rolleyes: Whatever.

Like animals. The Qur'an says that animals are innocent and submissive making them Muslims. Just because they don't run around and declare themselves Muslims doesn't mean they aren't.

Actually, that's true. All animals are Muslim. The Sun and the Moon are Muslim. The Earth itself is Muslim.

In Islam, Jesus is a Muslim.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Intro/islamic_jesus.html

now i knew Jesus was considered a prophet... but a muslim.. thats much more interesting.. how do they resolve this... seeing how Jesus was born of a Jewish family, was brought up in the temples and then proclaimed himself the son of god (really creating christianity through his own rights)

Like animals. The Qur'an says that animals are innocent and submissive making them Muslims. Just because they don't run around and declare themselves Muslims doesn't mean they aren't.

What religion does that make my cats? I've suspected for a long time they're Satanists. Especially with those bloody mouse sacrifices. :D

Actually, that's true. All animals are Muslim. The Sun and the Moon are Muslim. The Earth itself is Muslim.

well that leads to another interesting question.. where does the "soul" end up in Islam.. is there such a thing.. if there is.. are yous aying all living beings and unliving things in possession of one ?

And what a nice religion.. that means really all the major relgions are encompassed by Islam so that Even though im Roman CAtholic.. In Islam.. im Muslim.. HA!!!! i dont even need a conversion! .. im set on two fronts

(another question you say Abraham is in a way by default Muslim.. however, he could not obey the 5 pillars (as they were not defined) and now adays you make the argument by not following these pillars you cannot be muslim.. so is he still muslim ?

Christians dont need to reconcile this issue with the 10 commandments as they were given to us before Jesus's time

Where did I insult your mother?

Exactly WHICH Nation are you saying is "under" my mama?

Again, someone touched by Divinity wouldn't be so insensitive, in my mind...

Perhaps the God YOU worship doesn't care, but the one I do does.

Regards,
Gaar

now i knew Jesus was considered a prophet... but a muslim.. thats much more interesting.. how do they resolve this... seeing how Jesus was born of a Jewish family, was brought up in the temples and then proclaimed himself the son of god (really creating christianity through his own rights)
"The word Christian is not a valid word, for there is no religion of Christianity according to Islam". — www.answering-christianity.com

now i knew Jesus was considered a prophet... but a muslim.. thats much more interesting.. how do they resolve this... seeing how Jesus was born of a Jewish family, was brought up in the temples and then proclaimed himself the son of god (really creating christianity through his own rights)

I was brought up in a Jewish family, raised on Torah, became a Bar Mitzvah, etc etc ... what's your point?

And what a nice religion.. that means really all the major relgions are encompassed by Islam so that Even though im Roman CAtholic.. In Islam.. im Muslim.. HA!!!! i dont even need a conversion! .. im set on two fronts


Your Holy Father did say that Qur'an is a holy book of God and that Islam is a path to Heaven. :)

Exactly WHICH Nation are you saying is "under" my mama?

Again, someone touched by Divinity wouldn't be so insensitive, in my mind...

Perhaps the God YOU worship doesn't care, but the one I do does.

Regards,
Gaar


Perhaps your "god" has no sense of humor. I pity you.

well that leads to another interesting question.. where does the "soul" end up in Islam.. is there such a thing.. if there is.. are yous aying all living beings and unliving things in possession of one ?

And what a nice religion.. that means really all the major relgions are encompassed by Islam so that Even though im Roman CAtholic.. In Islam.. im Muslim.. HA!!!! i dont even need a conversion! .. im set on two fronts

(another question you say Abraham is in a way by default Muslim.. however, he could not obey the 5 pillars (as they were not defined) and now adays you make the argument by not following these pillars you cannot be muslim.. so is he still muslim ?

Christians dont need to reconcile this issue with the 10 commandments as they were given to us before Jesus's time

All the Prophets of Islam preached the same thing, Islam. The three books, the Torah, the Bible, and the Qur'an were one in the same. That's where 'The People of the Book' name comes from.

Along the lines of time, man strayed and changed the Torah and Bible into something that they themselves deemed more enjoyable instead of continuing to follow the original message portrayed to them.

"Muslim" refers to anyone who has submitted themselves to Allah. Abraham, who was neither Christian nor Jew, submitted himself to Allah (or, as he called it, "Elaw") and was, therefore, Muslim.
So by that definition, is anyone submitting themselves to Allah a muslim, even if they don't call him Allah? Are some Christians and Jew's actually muslims?

I was brought up in a Jewish family, raised on Torah, became a Bar Mitzvah, etc etc ... what's your point?

my point is.. how is Jesus a muslim.. he went from Judisim to Christianity.. Even if CHristianity is some how "not a valid word" in Islam then he went to .. i guess what would be a pagan religion.. where does Islam come into play ?

And here is another questino now.. if Islam does not recognize Christianity as a reality.. What are christians to Islam ?

Perhaps your "god" has no sense of humor. I pity you.

I'm not so sure of that...

He created YOU didn't he!

;)

Regards,
Gaar

I'm not so sure of that...

He created YOU didn't he!

;)

Regards,
Gaar
All men were created equal ;)

my point is.. how is Jesus a muslim.. he went from Judisim to Christianity.. Even if CHristianity is some how "not a valid word" in Islam then he went to .. i guess what would be a pagan religion.. where does Islam come into play ?

And here is another questino now.. if Islam does not recognize Christianity as a reality.. What are christians to Islam ?
See my last post.

And here is another questino now.. if Islam does not recognize Christianity as a reality.. What are christians to Islam ?

Infidels who must die, according to the Koran...

Regards,
Gaar

my point is.. how is Jesus a muslim.. he went from Judisim to Christianity.. Even if CHristianity is some how "not a valid word" in Islam then he went to .. i guess what would be a pagan religion.. where does Islam come into play ?

And here is another questino now.. if Islam does not recognize Christianity as a reality.. What are christians to Islam ?


Jesus was never a Christian. If he accepted himself as the "Christ" and, thus, worshipped himself, he'd still not be a Christian. The only religion I've seen where worship of the self was integral is modern Satanism.

Jesus was Muslim. He submitted himself to Allah.

You have stated on other threads you are not a true muslim if you do not follow the 5 pillars.. these pillars are quite specific... if you follow the logic ive been running you will come to quite a disconcerting result.. If Christianity is not recognized as a word in Islam.. What are christians.. muslims not following the pillars ? in which case they are not really muslims.. but they belive in god...

But then youve stated and restated the great importance of the pillars .. can one be saved if they do not follow the pillars ? yet still belive in god ? Even if they are not muslim ?

All fasinating questions i must say.. Much of the world maybe going to hell simply because CHristianity is not recognized as a religion or a word in the eyes of Islam

All men were created equal ;)

Some a little more "equal" than others... ;)

Regards,
Gaar

Infidels who must die, according to the Koran...

Regards,
Gaar

The word "infidel" is not used once in Qur'an. Liar.

Infidels who must die, according to the Koran...

Regards,
Gaar
I'm getting the feeling that you're nothing but a troll. Give me a quote from the Qur'an that says that. The Qur'an commands us to be respectful to Jews and Christians.

Jesus was Muslim. He submitted himself to Allah.

Must be nice to be able to "bring" people to Allah, "after the fact" as it were...

Do YOU get to pick and choose, or are we all saved if we believe in God (Allah)?

Regards,
Gaar

Jesus was never a Christian. If he accepted himself as the "Christ" and, thus, worshipped himself, he'd still not be a Christian. The only religion I've seen where worship of the self was integral is modern Satanism.

Jesus was Muslim. He submitted himself to Allah.

Jesus never worshiped himself and yet he did.. He worshiped his father.. who is god.. However god is made up of the Holy trinity THe father the Son and the Holy spirit.. HE worshiped a part "his father" and the whole.. God.. never himself directly.. So he WOULD be a christian... SAtanism is not about worhsiping yourself either is it.. its about worshiping satan ??

Your saying anyone who sumbits himself to Allah.. god is a muslim.. but youve said in the past any muslim not following the 5 pillars are not muslims.. so where does that leave jesus.. He did not worship god in the manner in which the 5 pillars requires.. and Islam did exist in the time of jesus...so the 5 pilllars were present

Edit: as well atleast accroding to the bible.. god had made it quite clear he distinguished himself as "christ" the MEssiah... how does islam resolve this.. this is far beyond being "the son of god" as you try to explain as being a peacemaker.. Jesus in the Bible atleast describes himself as the MEssiah in the Torah...

Must be nice to be able to "bring" people to Allah, "after the fact" as it were...
What do you mean by "after the fact"?
From the little I know, it seems as though Muslims believe the Christian God and theirs are one and the same. Meaning that if Jesus submitted himself to God, which he did, there isn't any "after the fact" going on.

EDIT:
Keru, do I have this right?

I'm getting the feeling that you're nothing but a troll. Give me a quote from the Qur'an that says that. The Qur'an commands us to be respectful to Jews and Christians.

Jamil, check your telegrams.

What do you mean by "after the fact"?
From the little I know, it seems as though Muslims believe the Christian God and theirs are one and the same. Meaning that if Jesus submitted himself to God, which he did, there isn't any "after the fact" going on.

EDIT:
Keru, do I have this right?

But someone just stated that ISlam does not recognize Christianity... and so do they accept the Christian God..

and i would still like some answers to my previous posts.. i know im pushing some points here rather hard.. but these are questions i think if your so ready to inform people about islam, you should be prepared to answer

Must be nice to be able to "bring" people to Allah, "after the fact" as it were...


There is no "after the fact". Allah created the Universe, decreed we study it, gave Torah at Sinai, gave the Prophets, sent Isa to remind us that we're not supposed to be bickering so much, sent Gavriel to Muhammed to bring a reminder, and stands guard over us today.

There is no before Allah and there will be no after.

Sorry, but that's the way it goes.,

But someone just stated that ISlam does not recognize Christianity... and so do they accept the Christian God..
Ok, so you didn't read my earlier post.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8367572&postcount=47

EDIT:
Keru, do I have this right?

Everyone has a right to the truth.

Jesus never worshiped himself and yet he did.. He worshiped his father.. who is god.. However god is made up of the Holy trinity THe father the Son and the Holy spirit.. HE worshiped a part "his father" and the whole.. God.. never himself directly.. So he WOULD be a christian... SAtanism is not about worhsiping yourself either is it.. its about worshiping satan ??

Your saying anyone who sumbits himself to Allah.. god is a muslim.. but youve said in the past any muslim not following the 5 pillars are not muslims.. so where does that leave jesus.. He did not worship god in the manner in which the 5 pillars requires.. and Islam did exist in the time of jesus...so the 5 pilllars were present

Edit: as well atleast accroding to the bible.. god had made it quite clear he distinguished himself as "christ" the MEssiah... how does islam resolve this.. this is far beyond being "the son of god" as you try to explain as being a peacemaker.. Jesus in the Bible atleast describes himself as the MEssiah in the Torah...

I don't believe Jesus existed in the way the bible portrays him. Much of his life was created by the Church under the direction of Constantine using the religion of Mithra. Mithra existed hundreds of years before Jesus, but his followers practiced a eucharist where they ate bread and wine as Mithra's blood and body. The lives of Mithra and Jesus are also very similar, both had twelve disciples, were born on december 25th by a virgin who concieved by the assistance of a diety (Ahura Mazda in the case of Mithra). Jesus, if he existed, was probably an insignificant Jewish teacher.

Everyone has a right to the truth.
That wasn't the kind of "right" I meant.
:D
I meant "Do I have this correct?"

That wasn't the kind of "right" I meant.
:D
I meant "Do I have this correct?"

Yep.

and Islam did exist in the time of jesus...so the 5 pilllars were present
Didn't mohammed (and therefore islam) come around sometime near 1000 ad?

Ok, so you didn't read my earlier post.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8367572&postcount=47

actually that anaslysis is incorrect according to history.. The one reason why the bible is so revered is that it has remained unchanged throughout the ages.. while interpreted differently the words are always the same.. So the bible has never been altered to fit our (christians) belifs.. Christianity was born from Judisum and since that time has remained constant.. Only anothe book was added to the Torah or Old Testiment..

What you are trying to argue is that the Torah was changed from the Quran.. is that relaly true though... i must admit i never stoped to ask which book was older.. of course you must have some evidence that the Torah was once the Quran right ?

I'm getting the feeling that you're nothing but a troll. Give me a quote from the Qur'an that says that. The Qur'an commands us to be respectful to Jews and Christians.

Yes, the Qu'ran says to respect Jews and Christians, however, killing millions of Persian Zoroastrians is perfectly fine because they are pagans (even though Zoroastrians are monotheists) who deserve to die. Even if not, Abu Bakr certainly didn't think respect was due.

The 5 pillars were in place before Abraham. Do Christians not believe in constant prayer, charity, knowledge, sacrifice (of the self), and faith?

If anyone who claims to be a Christian can deny the pillars, then they are not Christian. (yeah, that's right, I said it. so there)

actually that anaslysis is incorrect according to history.. The one reason why the bible is so revered is that it has remained unchanged throughout the ages.. while interpreted differently the words are always the same.. So the bible has never been altered to fit our (christians) belifs.. Christianity was born from Judisum and since that time has remained constant.. Only anothe book was added to the Torah or Old Testiment..

What you are trying to argue is that the Torah was changed from the Quran.. is that relaly true though... i must admit i never stoped to ask which book was older.. of course you must have some evidence that the Torah was once the Quran right ?

My proof is the Qur'an and the Qur'an is justice.

EDIT:

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus" (42:13 AYA)

"We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA)

Jesus, if he existed, was probably an insignificant Jewish teacher.

Carpenter, not teacher.

Semi un-related (IE. not refering to you Parthians): It's really sad that no matter how many times you give the right answer, you still have to deal with dumbasses who wish to believe lies. Really deserves you guys (Jamil and Keruvalia specificly) for not flying off the handle and flaming.
Rock on!
*Starts throwing rocks randomly*

Didn't mohammed (and therefore islam) come around sometime near 1000 ad?
650 CE-ish I believe is around when he died.
I may be wrong, in fact I'm sure I'm wrong, but he did come around in the 600's.

The word "infidel" is not used once in Qur'an. Liar.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

The Koran exhorts the true believers as follows:
"War is enjoined against he Infidels." II, 215
"Oh True believers, wage war against such of the infidels as are near you." IX, 124

The tradition as set forth in the Hidayah, or Guidance, state:
"If a Moslem attack an infidel without previously calling him to the Faith, he is an offender because this is forbidden."

And further:
"Giving due notice to the enemy in this case is indispensably requisite in such a manner that treachery may not be induced, since this is forbidden."

Westerners naively accept Allah, who inspired Muhammad, as the God of the Bible. Yet Allah has no son, and rejects the Trinity (4:171), is unknowable, and was the pagan idol/god of Muhammad's tribe before he was born. Allah tells Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians for friends...slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who...believe not in Allah nor the Last Day" (5:51;9:5,29,41).

Didn't mohammed (and therefore islam) come around sometime near 1000 ad?

By god i belive you maybe right.. actually it seems he was born in 570 ad... but then.. then Jamils analysis is even FArTHER mistaken.. because he claims all the books were once one.. the Torah and Bible and the Quran... and that Jews and Christians altered their books to fit their belifs.. now of course this is entirely false because history tells us these books have survived history unchanged... and if both judisim and christianity predate Islam.. exactly where does that leave the origin of the Quran.. was IT altered to fit their belifs ? Afterall the Bible encompasses the Torah entirely word for word adding only a new testiment ... but the QUran is quite different isn't it

My proof is the Qur'an and the Qur'an is justice.


There is no greater proof. :D

Carpenter, not teacher.

Semi un-related (IE. not refering to you Parthians): It's really sad that no matter how many times you give the right answer, you still have to deal with dumbasses who wish to believe lies. Really deserves you guys (Jamil and Keruvalia specificly) for not flying off the handle and flaming.
Rock on!
*Starts throwing rocks randomly*


650 CE-ish I believe is around when he died.
I may be wrong, in fact I'm sure I'm wrong, but he did come around in the 600's.

your correct on Mohammad.. However History already has identified Jesus's significance in history and the times.. thank god for excellent Roman documentation ~_^. He was more then a simple teacher who i was insignificant.. he was significant a treat to be executed

Yes, the Qu'ran says to respect Jews and Christians, however, killing millions of Persian Zoroastrians is perfectly fine because they are pagans (even though Zoroastrians are monotheists) who deserve to die. Even if not, Abu Bakr certainly didn't think respect was due.
Exactly![/SARCASM]

There is no greater proof. :D

um another question.. is what "Urantia II" saying accurate wording of the Quran.. if so.. havn't you just been proven wrong ? This must be clear cut seeing how you dont know Arabic and are obviously reading form an English version Quran

<lies snipped>

None of what you mentioned contains the Arabic word for "Infidel".

The Arabic word for "Infidel" does not mean "unbeliever", it more means someone who embraces Islam, but then later rejects it.

So now I have to go to the hajj?

So now I have to go to the hajj?
Why not? :D

I walked inside ... wet hair, still a little soapy, water spotted clothes, and found many brothers there. One asked me, "Do you need something, brother?" and the words fell out of my mouth, in Arabic, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". I do not know Arabic and had no idea what this was, but fell to my knees at that point and believe I was kissed by Allah. I know now that I declared shahadah.

so you managed convert without actually even realizing it. are you saying you actually spontaneously said the exact ritual phrase of conversion in arabic without being told it in advance, that is amazing if true.

By god i belive you maybe right.. actually it seems he was born in 570 ad... but then.. then Jamils analysis is even FArTHER mistaken.. because he claims all the books were once one.. the Torah and Bible and the Quran... and that Jews and Christians altered their books to fit their belifs.. now of course this is entirely false because history tells us these books have survived history unchanged... and if both judisim and christianity predate Islam.. exactly where does that leave the origin of the Quran.. was IT altered to fit their belifs ? Afterall the Bible encompasses the Torah entirely word for word adding only a new testiment ... but the QUran is quite different isn't it


Actually, both the Bible and the Torah have been altered throughout the ages. To say differently, is pretty stupid, people have added, subtracted, and changed things numerous times.
The Qu'ran has managed to keep itself pretty close to the origonal (I won't say the same) because something about Islam is that the Qu'ran is not the Qu'ran unless it's in Arabic. And one of the problems with the Bible and Torah, is they get translated, and languages are not exactly alike, so things get changed.

Exactly![/SARCASM]

Try refuting it instead of using sarcasm. Or maybe you can't since you know that Arab armies happily swept through Persia killing millions of innocents.

So now I have to go to the hajj?

Would it hurt?

Actually, both the Bible and the Torah have been altered throughout the ages. To say differently, is pretty stupid, people have added, subtracted, and changed things numerous times.
The Qu'ran has managed to keep itself pretty close to the origonal (I won't say the same) because something about Islam is that the Qu'ran is not the Qu'ran unless it's in Arabic. And one of the problems with the Bible and Torah, is they get translated, and languages are not exactly alike, so things get changed.

Don't forget how Constantine used a lot of his power to change the bible to suit him at the council of Nicea.

None of what you mentioned contains the Arabic word for "Infidel".

The Arabic word for "Infidel" does not mean "unbeliever", it more means someone who embraces Islam, but then later rejects it.
an apostate... infidel(unfaithful) the root of infidelity.

My proof is the Qur'an and the Qur'an is justice.

EDIT:

"The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus" (42:13 AYA)

"We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA)

But the Bible.. and the Torah predate the Quran.. Your basing your evidence on a book which is younger.. and far different in wording then the previous two books.. yet insist these other two books have been "changed" when history clearly tells us they havn't.. So ok.. yes the Gods are the same by the words you say.. But this still does not explain how Islam can not recognize Christianity even though Christianity predates Islam !? Its obsurd...

Unless of course you look at it another way.. Islam is just a different interpreation of what Christianity is.. I guess that COULD be why ... but this still does not answer my most important question.. where does Islam leave Christians in the grand sceme of things.. if ISlam is just another interpreation of Christianity... but Christians clearly dont follow the 5 pillars they cannot be Muslims... so what are they.. and are we to be saved ?

Try refuting it instead of using sarcasm. Or maybe you can't since you know that Arab armies happily swept through Persia killing millions of innocents.

Killing Persians and forcing them by "the sword"?

I guess that's why Iran (59% Persian) hates Muslims so much that they reject Islam ... oh wait ... never mind ...

*coff*

Don't forget how Constantine used a lot of his power to change the bible to suit him at the council of Nicea.

I didn't think I had to say that, as he's not the only one.

Anyway, to accecpt that the "holy texts" of your religion are completely unchanged throughout history is pretty foolish.
It's a good thing though, to be able to recognise the changes that were made, and acknowledge them, and go from there.

But the Bible.. and the Torah predate the Quran.. Your basing your evidence on a book which is younger.. and far different in wording then the previous two books.. yet insist these other two books have been "changed" when history clearly tells us they havn't.. So ok.. yes the Gods are the same by the words you say.. But this still does not explain how Islam can not recognize Christianity even though Christianity predates Islam !? Its obsurd...

Unless of course you look at it another way.. Islam is just a different interpreation of what Christianity is.. I guess that COULD be why ... but this still does not answer my most important question.. where does Islam leave Christians in the grand sceme of things.. if ISlam is just another interpreation of Christianity... but Christians clearly dont follow the 5 pillars they cannot be Muslims... so what are they.. and are we to be saved ?

Christianity does not exist. Prophet Isa did not call it Christianity. Christianity was a name created by the people that follow Isa after his departure to go along with a contorted version of the Bible.

None of what you mentioned contains the Arabic word for "Infidel".

The Arabic word for "Infidel" does not mean "unbeliever", it more means someone who embraces Islam, but then later rejects it.

Infidel, unbeliever... You still mean for it to refer to Christians and Jews and want to kill them either way, right?

So now we are going to argue semantics of who your Religion wants dead?

Regards,
Gaar

Would it hurt?
It wouldn't hurt anything. But I dont believe that I cannot be a christian if I dont go. The bible said that you can do whatever your faith allows. I believe my faith would not be weakened by going to hajj. I also believe that my faith is not weakened by eating bacon, or having the occasional beer. The bible clearly states that what may be a sin to you is not necessarily a sin to me as long as it dosent weaken my faith or the faith of my brothers.

None of what you mentioned contains the Arabic word for "Infidel".

The Arabic word for "Infidel" does not mean "unbeliever", it more means someone who embraces Islam, but then later rejects it.
actually i believe the term infidel was originally a christian term to describe muslims not the other way around. it was connected with the crusades and the desire to win back territories that were orginally(or rather earlier) christian and had later been converted to islam and thus they were infidels from the christian prospective having abandoned their previous christian faith .

so you managed convert without actually even realizing it. are you saying you actually spontaneously said the exact ritual phrase of conversion in arabic without being told it in advance, that is amazing if true.


Yeah ... that's what I'm saying. I have witnesses.

Yeah ... that's what I'm saying. I have witnesses.
i'm always skeptical of miracles but i would think that would count as a minor one.

Killing Persians and forcing them by "the sword"?

I guess that's why Iran (59% Persian) hates Muslims so much that they reject Islam ... oh wait ... never mind ...

*coff*

Hahahahahah, thats funny. Have you ever thought they would IF THEY COULD? In Iran apostacy is punished by death. Many Iranian-Amercians give up Islam when they move to the west.

And still, that doesn't mean they wanted to be Muslim. I remind you, Iran was Zoroastrian, until the Arabs came and killed millions and converted most of the rest at the point of the sword.

It wouldn't hurt anything. But I dont believe that I cannot be a christian if I dont go. The bible said that you can do whatever your faith allows. I believe my faith would not be weakened by going to hajj. I also believe that my faith is not weakened by eating bacon, or having the occasional beer. The bible clearly states that what may be a sin to you is not necessarily a sin to me as long as it dosent weaken my faith or the faith of my brothers.

Not so much a "sin" as it is "forbidden" ...

Having a beer is not grounds for "eternal damnation", but it is displeasing to Allah. I mean .. if you have too many beers, it's tough to get up and perform the dawn salat(prayer).

Big difference there.

Christianity does not exist. Prophet Isa did not call it Christianity. Christianity was a name created by the people that follow Isa after his departure to go along with a contorted version of the Bible.

What of the Torah.. the Torah predates the Quran as well.. yet the Quran is very different from the Torah in content and belif...

You still mean for it to refer to Christians and Jews and want to kill them either way, right?
I like how you're saying here that he wants to kill them...
:rolleyes:

Hahahahahah, thats funny. Have you ever thought they would IF THEY COULD? In Iran apostacy is punished by death.

Yet Rushdie is still alive. The only example of a fatwah brought against an apostate you can find and he's still alive ...

Zany.

Hahahahahah, thats funny. Have you ever thought they would IF THEY COULD? In Iran apostacy is punished by death. Many Iranian-Amercians give up Islam when they move to the west.

And still, that doesn't mean they wanted to be Muslim. I remind you, Iran was Zoroastrian, until the Arabs came and killed millions and converted most of the rest at the point of the sword.


I believe, after a couple of generations, the people are generally into their religion enough that they stay there. Which would explain why alot of people don't convert.

Infidel, unbeliever... You still mean for it to refer to Christians and Jews and want to kill them either way, right?


No ... Qur'an commands that Christians and Jews (called "People of the Book") are to be treated with respect and deference.

Christianity does not exist. Prophet Isa did not call it Christianity. Christianity was a name created by the people that follow Isa after his departure to go along with a contorted version of the Bible.
this is part of how Muslims (and other faiths) get a bad name. i dont think you should be putting other religions down. try steeping in your own faith for a bit, maybe you will understand that idea.

Hey Keruvalia- check your tgs

I like how you're saying here that he wants to kill them...
:rolleyes:

It's not me saying it, it's his Religion...

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Don't forget how Constantine used a lot of his power to change the bible to suit him at the council of Nicea.

... thats not what happend at all.. the controversy was over an interpretation of the words in the bible.. he brought resolution by the fact this wasn't a criticle issue of law and the two sides held essentially the same views they were almost "triffling" over specifics... no words were actually changed in the bible itself.

It's not me saying it, it's his Religion...
Well, he has quite clearly said he doesn't want to kill others and does not believe his religion says to. So yes, you are saying it.

No ... Qur'an commands that Christians and Jews (called "People of the Book") are to be treated with respect and deference.

Then perhaps YOU might address the Scriptures I have been posting?

I notice that YOU don't "quote" the Koran here, why is that?

Are you going to address the Scriptures I have pointed out or are you going to insist on something that I have shown you several times to be comepletely WRONG?!?!

Regards,
Gaar

Not so much a "sin" as it is "forbidden" ...

Having a beer is not grounds for "eternal damnation", but it is displeasing to Allah. I mean .. if you have too many beers, it's tough to get up and perform the dawn salat(prayer).

Big difference there.

I understand, I'm not saying you're wrong about not drinking. My point is that you said that your not a christian if you do not follow the 5 pillars of islam. Please understand my view is hard for me to articulate. To put it simply, just beacuse I believe I'm right about the beer thing dosent mean I think youre wrong.

Yet Rushdie is still alive. The only example of a fatwah brought against an apostate you can find and he's still alive ...

Zany.

Rushdie lived in a foreign nation and went into hiding. But the people being hanged by cranes on the streets of Iran aren't faring too well.

And why do all Muslims I speak to refuse to comment on the slaughter of Persian Zoroastrians by Abu Bakr.

Well, he has quite clearly said he doesn't want to kill others and does not believe his religion says to. So yes, you are saying it.

Then perhaps he or you would be kind enough to ADDRESS the quotes I have posted?

Otherwise, you can SAY what you like, but the PROOF is in the Pudding...

Regards,
Gaar

this is part of how Muslims (and other faiths) get a bad name. i dont think you should be putting other religions down. try steeping in your own faith for a bit, maybe you will understand that idea.

Hey Keruvalia- check your tgs


I still find it obsurd how the Bible is Contorted in that the interpretation of Jesus 's role is different from Islam, thought it fully takes into account the teachins of Judisim and the Torah... while the Quran deviates from both (using far different words where the bible encompasses the Torah word for word) and yet you dont even accept the mere possibility that it is ISLAM which is the contorted version of events...

Then perhaps YOU might address the Scriptures I have been posting?


I, and many others before me already have ... you just need to pay attention. I'm not repeating myself.

Here's a clue: Google: Peaceful Islam Quran.

Then learn to read.

Then perhaps YOU might address the Scriptures I have been posting?

I notice that YOU don't "quote" the Koran here, why is that?

Are you going to address the Scriptures I have pointed out or are you going to insist on something that I have shown you several times to be comepletely WRONG?!?!

Regards,
Gaar

I would also like to know what this orginal unifiying book is..? its certainly not the Koran.. and not the Bible as the Bible was born off the Torah.. but the Torah can't be the book as the Quran is far different from it... so what is this "Book" which Islam speaks of ?

Then perhaps YOU might address the Scriptures I have been posting?

I notice that YOU don't "quote" the Koran here, why is that?

Are you going to address the Scriptures I have pointed out or are you going to insist on something that I have shown you several times to be comepletely WRONG?!?!

Regards,
Gaar


I'll address it for you.
In fact, I checked that site.
And from what it looks like, the guy who wrote that is the Agnostic (Or Atheist) version of Christian, or Islamic, fundamentalists (The ones who try to force their beliefs on others, not the good ones).

I'd sooner believe Josef Gobbels then James Haught, the author of that website.
Try more repputable sources.

Rushdie lived in a foreign nation and went into hiding. But the people being hanged by cranes on the streets of Iran aren't faring too well.

Rushdie *fled* to a foreign nation. Big difference. He has since re-embrace Islam. Explain that.

And why do all Muslims I speak to refuse to comment on the slaughter of Persian Zoroastrians by Abu Bakr.

Ermmm ... it was 1,000 years ago? Same reason Christians don't feel the need to justify the Crusades, eh?

... thats not what happend at all.. the controversy was over an interpretation of the words in the bible.. he brought resolution by the fact this wasn't a criticle issue of law and the two sides held essentially the same views they were almost "triffling" over specifics... no words were actually changed in the bible itself.

what about the gnostic gospels? didn't constatine and the council of nicea codify which texts were canon and which were pseudepigrapha.

I understand, I'm not saying you're wrong about not drinking. My point is that you said that your not a christian if you do not follow the 5 pillars of islam. Please understand my view is hard for me to articulate. To put it simply, just beacuse I believe I'm right about the beer thing dosent mean I think youre wrong.

Essentially he is asking the same thing I am.. Christians clearly arn't muslim from your own words.. so where do they stand in the eyes of god.. this speaks directly to the importance of the 5 pillars and how impactful they are in ones assention to salvation. Are christians damned because they arn't following the 5 pillars ?

For Christians the question is far simplier.. the overriding factor is faith in God himself.. all other laws given through the 10 commandments are quite basic in nature and transferable accross all religions.. however the ones in the 5 pillars are very specific (as you so articulated) and so they leave the question i and this other fellow have

I, and many others before me already have ... you just need to pay attention. I'm not repeating myself.

You say that the Koran says to respect Christians and Jews, yet you provide NO Scripture that says anything like that and I have provided you with Scripture that says the exact opposite...

So how is it that YOU have "proven" anything?

Up to this point you have offered nothing but your OPINION on the matter.

Quote some Scripture to support your assertions or be left to deal with it as simply your OPINION.

Regards,
Gaar

I still find it obsurd how the Bible is Contorted in that the interpretation of Jesus 's role is different from Islam, thought it fully takes into account the teachins of Judisim and the Torah... while the Quran deviates from both (using far different words where the bible encompasses the Torah word for word) and yet you dont even accept the mere possibility that it is ISLAM which is the contorted version of events...

I'll repeat myself.

Allah sent down one original revelation to each of His prophets. Those prophets throughout all of history spread this revelation and it made an impact on the world. However, in long absences without a divinely chosen leader, the Torah and the Bible which were the same original text delivered by Allah, were corrupted with man-made laws. The Qur'an is the last of that same text sent down many times before and ultimately, it will be the one to guide humanity towards the Last Day.

Rushdie *fled* to a foreign nation. Big difference. He has since re-embrace Islam. Explain that.



Ermmm ... it was 1,000 years ago? Same reason Christians don't feel the need to justify the Crusades, eh?

Oh, maybe to save himself from getting killed perhaps?

Oh, so time justifies horrible, violent actions. I'm sure you think the Christians are wrong for starting Crusades and trying to deny how bad they were. Their crusades killed far less than Islam did to Iran.

You say that the Koran says to respect Christians and Jews, yet you provide NO Scripture that says anything like that and I have provided you with Scripture that says the exact opposite...

So how is it that YOU have "proven" anything?

Up to this point you have offered nothing but your OPINION on the matter.

Quote some Scripture to support your assertions or be left to deal with it as simply your OPINION.

Regards,
Gaar

Quote some scripture to support your claim.
And don't copy and paste from a website, go buy a copy of the Qu'ran and read it, then quote scripture, because I've already addressed the legitimacy of that site.

Essentially he is asking the same thing I am.. Christians clearly arn't muslim from your own words.. so where do they stand in the eyes of god.. this speaks directly to the importance of the 5 pillars and how impactful they are in ones assention to salvation. Are christians damned because they arn't following the 5 pillars ?

For Christians the question is far simplier.. the overriding factor is faith in God himself.. all other laws given through the 10 commandments are quite basic in nature and transferable accross all religions.. however the ones in the 5 pillars are very specific (as you so articulated) and so they leave the question i and this other fellow have
the 10 commandments aren't transferable accross religions, the first 4 deal specifically with the relationship you are supposed to have with yahweh. the next 6 relate to personal behavior only 3 of which are even illegal in most christian countries.

Oh, maybe to save himself from getting killed perhaps?

Oh, so time justifies horrible, violent actions. I'm sure you think the Christians are wrong for starting Crusades and trying to deny how bad they were. Their crusades killed far less than Islam did to Iran.


Dude, Time justifies people not knowing enough about a subject to want to respond.
You could ask me to talk about the Roman invasion of Gaul (Because I'm part French), and assume I know of it because I'm part French. But I wouldn;t be able to answer it, simply because I did not learn of it.

Perhaps, if you want an answer from a Muslim about the slaughter of Zoroastrians in Persia by Muslims, you should find a Muslim who knows about the subject?

what about the gnostic gospels? didn't constatine and the council of nicea codify which texts were canon and which were pseudepigrapha.

wasn't the issue of those gospels based on the timeperiod of their writings and that the gnostic gospels were written in the 2nd century while canonical Gospels were written in the 1st century by the aposels....

I, and many others before me already have ... you just need to pay attention. I'm not repeating myself.

Here's a clue: Google: Peaceful Islam Quran.

Then learn to read.

Ok, I did that...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-48,RNWE:en&q=Peaceful+Islam+Quran

Quote from one of the top sites to come up. This is ALL from a site YOU just sent me to...

http://www.blessedcause.org/Quran.htm

After being accused of reading a "bad translation" of the Quran, I went to a huge secular bookstore and compared over 8 different translations of the Quran/Koran, all very pro-Islam; they all said the same things in these verses, to claim bad translation is a cover up. To mystically claim "one must read Arabic" is ludicrous, if you learned the language you would still get the same translation, anything can be translated, and the Quran was not purely Arabic anyway! Contents of Quran confirmed. Additionally, clerics will tell you these verses are "out of context" so I found the "context" in the Hadith and Sira, Islam's other holy books. They show the "method of Muhammad," approaching other countries disguised as peaceful with covert groups (cells) prepared to carry out violence on Christians, Jews, infidels.

Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e:) [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)

Contrast that with what Jesus said:

"But I say to you, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. Be merciful as your Father is merciful. This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Jesus, SON of God

See What about the Old Testament?
and What about the Crusades?

Again, Mohammad first went to the Jews as a prophet, writing of peace; was rejected. Mohammad then went to the Christians claiming to be a prophet and wrote peace; was rejected. Mohammad went back to his own people and was rejected until he (for a short time) said Allah allowed them to worship Allah's daughters. Mohammad then began to slaughter unbelievers and masterminded over 60 massacres, and the Quran changed dramatically to hate, that is why there are so many contradictions. That is also why there are so many familiar phrases and precepts between the religions. Mohammad appeared on the scene over 600 years after Jesus was resurrected, he tried to claim to be a prophet, though illiterate, he knew the scriptures of the Bible well. But "Allah" is certainly NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The characters are exactly opposite! In fact the Hebrew phonetic word Allah (aw-law) means to lament, mourn and curse. (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance #421, 422, 423)

Hate Muslims? NO! Jesus would never have advocated hating anybody! But should we insist our children "assume you are a Muslim soldier" about to conquer a nation? Should they memorize the tenants of Islam, repeat the words, pray to Allah, build Mosques, imagine they are Muslim and write what they like about it? NO!!! And at the same time, school textbooks claim that the Old Testament prophets could not tell the future (yes they could when God revealed it to them countless times!). Additionally, the textbooks actually teach that the Israelites only accepted what the prophets told them so they could explain away the disasters they went through!

"Across the Centuries" and "Message of Ancient Days" claim the religion of Islam is truth, (beliefs are given as fact) and that Judeo-Christian beliefs are false. Public schools INSIST our children learn this. WHERE ARE OUR RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS???

You say that the Koran says to respect Christians and Jews, yet you provide NO Scripture that says anything like that and I have provided you with Scripture that says the exact opposite...


Already provided. I will not repeat myself. Sorry.

You can Google as eaily as I can.

Go read the "So you want to be a Muslim, eh?" thread and the "How can this be the religion of peace" thread.

I'm not going to repeat myself.

<>Snip<>


Please explain to me how a Fundamentalist Christian website can describe Islam?

Are you ignoring what I have to ask?

Quote some scripture to support your claim.
And don't copy and paste from a website, go buy a copy of the Qu'ran and read it, then quote scripture, because I've already addressed the legitimacy of that site.

How about the "legitimacy" of ALL of these sites I was just POINTED to...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-48,RNWE:en&q=Peaceful+Islam+Quran

They ALL are saying the same thing!

Now, perhaps YOU could find JUST ONE quote from YOUR OWN Scriptures to support just ONE of YOUR assertions here?

Or perhaps you could explain to me why it is that I am the only one able to find Scriptures from YOUR OWN BOOK to support the assertions I have been making, even from sites YOUR SIDE has directed me to?

Regards,
Gaar

You say that the Koran says to respect Christians and Jews, yet you provide NO Scripture that says anything like that and I have provided you with Scripture that says the exact opposite...

So how is it that YOU have "proven" anything?

Up to this point you have offered nothing but your OPINION on the matter.

Quote some Scripture to support your assertions or be left to deal with it as simply your OPINION.

Regards,
Gaar

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[2:62 & 5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[7:159] Among the followers of Moses there are those who guide in accordance with the truth, and the truth renders them righteous.

Now, perhaps YOU could find JUST ONE quote from YOUR OWN Scriptures to support just ONE of YOUR assertions here?

Or perhaps you could explain to me why it is that I am the only one able to find Scriptures from YOUR OWN BOOK to support the assertions I have been making, even from sites YOUR SIDE has directed me to?

Regards,
Gaar
Dostanut Loj isn't a Muslim. It's not his book.

I'll repeat myself.

Allah sent down one original revelation to each of His prophets. Those prophets throughout all of history spread this revelation and it made an impact on the world. However, in long absences without a divinely chosen leader, the Torah and the Bible which were the same original text delivered by Allah, were corrupted with man-made laws. The Qur'an is the last of that same text sent down many times before and ultimately, it will be the one to guide humanity towards the Last Day.

sorry.. i guess im missing the connection here...

The bible has existed for the past 2000 years.. its translations span accross all languages and i belive still exists in its orginial wording.... having all the translations of the bible historians have remarked countless times on the realitive fludity of it.. and that it has remained unchanged throughout history...

If the two first books were tainted by human influence (seeing how at the inception of ISLAM christianity was only something like 600 years old) and we still lack the divinely chosen leader to guide us.. how is it then you make the claim that the Quran has remained untainted by humans ?

How about the "legitimacy" of ALL of these sites I was just POINTED to...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2004-48,RNWE:en&q=Peaceful+Islam+Quran

They ALL are saying the same thing!

Now, perhaps YOU could find JUST ONE quote from YOUR OWN Scriptures to support just ONE of YOUR assertions here?

Or perhaps you could explain to me why it is that I am the only one able to find Scriptures from YOUR OWN BOOK to support the assertions I have been making, even from sites YOUR SIDE has directed me to?

Regards,
Gaar


Give me 10 minutes, I'll have quotes from my scriptures that state anything I want them to.

But I think you need to rethink who you're talking to, as I'm not a Muslim. In fact, if what you say is true, I'd be the first person in this thread that the Muslims here would want to kill.

Are you ignoring what I have to ask?

well if they weren't a bunch of stinky fire worshipping heathens who leave their dead out for the vultures they wouldn't have had to be liquidated now would they. islam teaches tolerance for people of the book, not a bunch of pagan astologers and sorcerers. ;p

the 10 commandments aren't transferable accross religions, the first 4 deal specifically with the relationship you are supposed to have with yahweh. the next 6 relate to personal behavior only 3 of which are even illegal in most christian countries.

Firstly.. if you accept that Judisim Islam and Christianity are based upon the same god.. then the rules in the 10 commandments are transferable accross all 3.. (these are of course the Major religons encompassing most of the worlds population) SEcondly when you speak of Christian countries you may only use the word Christian in that the majority of those countries populations are christian and that the most basic laws are based on christian belifs.. HOWEVER.. the governments themselves are largely secular (even America) and so to make referense that some of these laws are not illegal speaks only to the fact that the governments are secular.. in all 3 religions these same laws are transferable.. that was my point

I'll repeat myself.

Allah sent down one original revelation to each of His prophets. Those prophets throughout all of history spread this revelation and it made an impact on the world. However, in long absences without a divinely chosen leader, the Torah and the Bible which were the same original text delivered by Allah, were corrupted with man-made laws. The Qur'an is the last of that same text sent down many times before and ultimately, it will be the one to guide humanity towards the Last Day.

Proof please? I already have a prophet, a God, and a text given in divine revelation and need some evidence before I hop ship.

well if they weren't a bunch of stinky fire worshipping heathens who leave their dead out for the vultures they wouldn't have had to be liquidated now would they. islam teaches tolerance for people of the book, not a bunch of pagan astologers and sorcerers. ;p


I hope you were joking, because I'm 'pagan' and I've been treated very well by every Muslim I've ever talked to.

well if they weren't a bunch of stinky fire worshipping heathens who leave their dead out for the vultures they wouldn't have had to be liquidated now would they. islam teaches tolerance for people of the book, not a bunch of pagan astologers and sorcerers. ;p
Well, still, if Islam was the religion of peace, I don't think they would slaughter millions.

None of what you mentioned contains the Arabic word for "Infidel".

The Arabic word for "Infidel" does not mean "unbeliever", it more means someone who embraces Islam, but then later rejects it.

What is the difference between an "unbeliever" and someone who embraces Islam and then later rejects it.. i would think unbeliver means someone rejecting belife (be it all obvious)

I still find it obsurd how the Bible is Contorted in that the interpretation of Jesus 's role is different from Islam, thought it fully takes into account the teachins of Judisim and the Torah... while the Quran deviates from both (using far different words where the bible encompasses the Torah word for word) and yet you dont even accept the mere possibility that it is ISLAM which is the contorted version of events...
you know what i know? is that neither i, nor you, were alive at the conception of these religions. and both are based on very old books, that have been translated, and yes, changed, for one reason or another. people do believe in the faiths though, and some are quite ferverent. why is it that you just cant study your own religion, and not try to take credit for everyone elses?

you know what i know? is that neither i, nor you, were alive at the conception of these religions. and both are based on very old books, that have been translated, and yes, changed, for one reason or another. people do believe in the faiths though, and some are quite ferverent. why is it that you just cant study your own religion, and not try to take credit for everyone elses?

Sorry i just need proof that the bible has actually be changed... one reason it is held so sacridly is for the explict fact that it has remained unchanged... I have never heard of evidence suggesting the words of the original text are not fully reflected in todays modern day versions

LOL and by the way im not trying to take credit for eveyrone elses religion.. if anything i would give credit to Judisim for recognizing the original teachings.. without it Christianity could never have been born.. But the argument that the Quran is the replacement for the first 2 books (which had been tainted lacking a divine leader) and still is the most valid (lacking that divine leader) it has some how remained untatined while the other two books were ? there is a misconnection somewhere in there >.>

maybe thats where the blind faith comes in ?

I hope you were joking, because I'm 'pagan' and I've been treated very well by every Muslim I've ever talked to.

most religions calm down after a few millenia, heck christians hardly even burn witches anymore(well occasionally in africa but i think that's actually more of a local religious holdover).

Well, still, if Islam was the religion of peace, I don't think they would slaughter millions.
peace through annihilation has often been advocate by people of various faiths. there is always peace when all your enemies are dead.

Sorry i just need proof that the bible has actually be changed... one reason it is held so sacridly is for the explict fact that it has remained unchanged... I have never heard of evidence suggesting the words of the original text are not fully reflected in todays modern day versions
from what i hear, it is held sacredly for that is the fact that it is gods love letter to his followers, and it the story of the savior and how he sacrificed himself for all of mankind. i am not a "bible follower", but that is what i get from friends that are

Proof please? I already have a prophet, a God, and a text given in divine revelation and need some evidence before I hop ship.

I can keep giving you information and proof and I think you'd still be doubting. It's up to you to hop the ship. I can help you cross the plank but ultimately, it's you that's going to have to take the steps. If you would take time to learn Arabic and read the Qur'an in it's original Arabic state, then I'm sure your questions would be more than answered.

sorry.. i guess im missing the connection here...

The bible has existed for the past 2000 years.. its translations span accross all languages and i belive still exists in its orginial wording.... having all the translations of the bible historians have remarked countless times on the realitive fludity of it.. and that it has remained unchanged throughout history...

If the two first books were tainted by human influence (seeing how at the inception of ISLAM christianity was only something like 600 years old) and we still lack the divinely chosen leader to guide us.. how is it then you make the claim that the Quran has remained untainted by humans ?
The Qur’an is the most often-read book in the world. Revealed by God to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the 7th century, and revered by Muslims as being God’s final Scripture and Testament, its words have been lovingly recited, memorised, and implemented by Muslims of every nationality ever since. The faithful are inspired, consoled often moved to tears by its eloquence and poetic imagery, especially when recited aloud. And yet, the Qur’an is unique in being the only Scripture that is free of scientific inaccuracies, whose historical authenticity can be verified, and whose text has been so carefully preserved that just one authorised version (in Arabic) exists. Approximately the length of the New Testament, the Qur’an is also the only holy book that can be memorised in its entirety by people of all ages and intellectual abilities – including non-Arabic speakers – which Muslims consider to be one of its miracles. We invite you to take a few minutes to learn something about a book that is the foundation of the world-view and culture of almost one-fourth of the people on this planet.

There are other important distinctions between the Qur’an and the Bible; the Qur’an asserts that much of the original books of the Bible and other Scriptures have been lost or corrupted over time (whether through warfare, political intrigue, religious schisms or other reasons). One only has to consider the number of different versions of the Bible in use today, the lack of ‘first’ originals, and the late discovery of long-lost Scriptures like the Dead Sea Scrolls to realise that this viewpoint is an objective one.

I directly quoted my answer from this site:
http://www.discover-islam-online.com/article3.htm

EDIT: I hope that's enough for now cause I really gotta get some sleep...

Story condensed to "Jesus told me to become a muslim."

Capital~

Yeah ... it's a true story. I am an educated man, a rational man, a worldly man, and not a person who is given over to emotions. Perhaps it was simply a moment of psychosis, but a moment of psychosis that had me drive to...

So this explains the 'people who suck cock' thread. :D

Poor, poor Keruvalia. Why do you do this to yourself? Are you a masochist? You should take after me. :) I keep my mouth more or less shut about my religion.

Poor, poor Keruvalia. Why do you do this to yourself? Are you a masochist? You should take after me. :) I keep my mouth more or less shut about my religion.


Yeah coz you never know what may end up in it. :eek: A foot, a penis, etc.

Yeah coz you never know what may end up in it. :eek: A foot, a penis, etc.

I like not talking about my religion. I bet most people here couldn't name my religion without looking at my player profile dealie. I think it helps because then you don't get a thousand people on here posting about how your religion is evil and savage because they've just got through reading some op-ed on the internet.

I bet most people here couldn't name my religion without looking at my player profile dealie.
Ooh ooh! I could without looking at your profile!

Ooh ooh! I could without looking at your profile!

Bah. How come?

Bah. How come?
You made a joke, and someone was confused, and part of your explanation involved circumstances that had to do with your religion.

I can keep giving you information and proof and I think you'd still be doubting. It's up to you to hop the ship. I can help you cross the plank but ultimately, it's you that's going to have to take the steps. If you would take time to learn Arabic and read the Qur'an in it's original Arabic state, then I'm sure your questions would be more than answered.

EDIT: I hope that's enough for now cause I really gotta get some sleep...

I am referring more to proof on why your religion is right and every other one is wrong. I believe my religion is right because it is logical.

You made a joke, and someone was confused, and part of your explanation involved circumstances that had to do with your religion.

Hmm, I don't recall. Oh well. I'm sure it's somewhere in the 10,500 posts.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking Keruvalia.

Poor, poor Keruvalia. Why do you do this to yourself? Are you a masochist? You should take after me. :) I keep my mouth more or less shut about my religion.
your a druse aren't you... dang druse will never talk about their religion, only they know the truth and they won't share it with anyone. i have a theory about this... its cuz heaven is actually much smaller than people suspect, and even paradise aint so cool if its massively overcrowded.

I am referring more to proof on why your religion is right and every other one is wrong. I believe my religion is right because it is logical.

Oooh, this should be interesting. How is your religion logical?

I am referring more to proof on why your religion is right and every other one is wrong. I believe my religion is right because it is logical.
so you're a Parsee

Oooh, this should be interesting. How is your religion logical?

Compared to other religions, it is very logical. I am a dualist, one who believes in opposing forces fight for control of the universe on fairly equal terms. One is the source of all good, the other is the source of all evil. Ahura Mazda eventually will triumph over Ahriman and rid the world of evil, as is said in the Avesta.

I got in the van and drove. I had no idea where I was going, but some part of me knew I would know when I got there. Something in my head guided my hands and took me where I needed to go. I ended up at a Mosque..

You sure he didn't meant the church next door did he? :D J/k

Well, Cheers on your personal experience with God.

so you're a Parsee

I'm not Parsee, thats a Zoroastrian of Persian ancestry living in India with traditions that differ slightly and a few different beliefs. I am an Iranian Zoroastrian.

I can keep giving you information and proof and I think you'd still be doubting. It's up to you to hop the ship. I can help you cross the plank but ultimately, it's you that's going to have to take the steps. If you would take time to learn Arabic and read the Qur'an in it's original Arabic state, then I'm sure your questions would be more than answered.


The Qur’an is the most often-read book in the world. Revealed by God to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the 7th century, and revered by Muslims as being God’s final Scripture and Testament, its words have been lovingly recited, memorised, and implemented by Muslims of every nationality ever since. The faithful are inspired, consoled often moved to tears by its eloquence and poetic imagery, especially when recited aloud. And yet, the Qur’an is unique in being the only Scripture that is free of scientific inaccuracies, whose historical authenticity can be verified, and whose text has been so carefully preserved that just one authorised version (in Arabic) exists. Approximately the length of the New Testament, the Qur’an is also the only holy book that can be memorised in its entirety by people of all ages and intellectual abilities – including non-Arabic speakers – which Muslims consider to be one of its miracles. We invite you to take a few minutes to learn something about a book that is the foundation of the world-view and culture of almost one-fourth of the people on this planet.

There are other important distinctions between the Qur’an and the Bible; the Qur’an asserts that much of the original books of the Bible and other Scriptures have been lost or corrupted over time (whether through warfare, political intrigue, religious schisms or other reasons). One only has to consider the number of different versions of the Bible in use today, the lack of ‘first’ originals, and the late discovery of long-lost Scriptures like the Dead Sea Scrolls to realise that this viewpoint is an objective one.

I directly quoted my answer from this site:
http://www.discover-islam-online.com/article3.htm

EDIT: I hope that's enough for now cause I really gotta get some sleep...

Do you even know the relationship of the Dead Sea Scrolls to Christianity.. your being misleading here weather it be dilberate or unconiouse... the Dead Sea Scrolls are not documents which are thought to be apart of the bible.. such as a new book... they are simply scrolls of the same time period which provide insight on similarities between Islam and early christianity and how they parallel teachings and traditions in Judisim. As well they provide insight on the pivitol time period in which Christianity and Judisim grew and developed... This does not provide evidience of alteration or influence over the book...other cases such as the Council of Neice do not suggest alterations but only speak of the interpreation of the words... the words have always remained the same... The authenticity of the orgins of christianity may also be verified through varying historical documentation provided by the Romans... As well there exists orginal text such as the "gospel of the twelve" belived to be the orginal text predating all other documentation pertaining to Christianity and the scritures..

the lengh of the Quran and the fact that it can be memorized again has no bearing on its authenticity.. in its hay day the Bible could be recited word for word from the most devout followers... the fact that the Quran and Islam exists primarly in undeveloped nations in whose education system is econpassed and based on the teaching and memorization of ISlam.. it is hardly surprising people can memorize it..

As to the begining part of your statement.. the number of followers is not reflective of the authenticity or validity of the faith.. only that those people belive it.. so that entire first section of your argument is irrelevant....

I'm not Parsee, thats a Zoroastrian of Persian ancestry living in India with traditions that differ slightly and a few different beliefs. I am an Iranian Zoroastrian. i didn't realize the difference, no offense meant.

Compared to other religions, it is very logical. I am a dualist, one who believes in opposing forces fight for control of the universe on fairly equal terms. One is the source of all good, the other is the source of all evil. Ahura Mazda eventually will triumph over Ahriman and rid the world of evil, as is said in the Avesta.

How is that logical?

your a druse aren't you... dang druse will never talk about their religion, only they know the truth and they won't share it with anyone. i have a theory about this... its cuz heaven is actually much smaller than people suspect, and even paradise aint so cool if its massively overcrowded.

No, I'm not whatever that is.

No, I'm not whatever that is.

strange offshot of islam mainly located in lebanon.. you can't convert you have to be born into it and they wouldn't tell outsiders exactly what they believe.

Jesus was a Jew, he couldn't be Christian since he hadn't died for our sins yet... :p

Regards,
Gaar

Thought that was funny :D (Can Jesus be a follower of himself?)

Jesus was born and died a JEW. His mother Mary was a JEW (see the lineage in the gospels of the Bible). He lived a JEWISH life. Celebrated JEWISH customs and feasts. He fulfilled JEWISH law. He was "King of the JEWS".

Fortunately Jesus died for Jews AND Gentiles, so that all may be saved. Unfortunately, many of the Jews did not recognize Him as the Savior.

Jesus was NOT Muslim. He was not JUST a prophet. Jesus was prophet, priest, and king. He was (and is) the Son of God. He is the Messiah, who died for our sins, so that those who believe will have everlasting life. ;)

Never heard of something like that happening before...Especially in the shower...Makes you wonder what God does in his spare time.

Anyway, regardless of how you found your religion, you are obviously happy with it.

I don't know why people would critisize you. You seem like a nice guy, who has a strong connection with both the physical and spiritual world. That's balance! That's something that should be praised!

People who critisize you for converting, or call you a druggie...Screw 'em, not worth your energy.

Good luck in the future brother!

mortal this is Onipitent Being speaking, can you please enter the place of worship now....

sorry i'm only jokeing, oh and to the topice started, just ingore the wack jobs here, myself included.

i really dont see why the muslims in this thread are bitching about having to answer the questions/issues people are rasing or having to restate themselves.. people obviously dont understand what they are saying or they arn't making sense and so there is a lack of connection... if you dont want to answer these types of questions or address these types of issues.. you should not be so openly soliciting this type of conversation..

Many of you will scoff. Some of you will call me a liar or on drugs. Some of you will think me a complete lunatic who should not be allowed in civilized society.

However, I am not afraid of being ostracized, hence, I will share my story for those who have asked me to ....

I was in the shower, of all places, when the water suddenly stopped. I was visited by an image of Isa (The prophet Jesus) who said to me, "There is a place to which I will guide you that you may learn the Truth. Dress now and follow."

Much to my wife's surprise, I got dressed, told her I had to go away for a little while, and left. She said it was like I was very calm and aware, but a little asleep.

I got in the van and drove. I had no idea where I was going, but some part of me knew I would know when I got there. Something in my head guided my hands and took me where I needed to go. I ended up at a Mosque.

I paused in the parking lot and wondered to myself just why I was there when the vision came back to me and the voice said, "This is the house of your Lord. Go into it and be comforted."

I walked inside ... wet hair, still a little soapy, water spotted clothes, and found many brothers there. One asked me, "Do you need something, brother?" and the words fell out of my mouth, in Arabic, "Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu". I do not know Arabic and had no idea what this was, but fell to my knees at that point and believe I was kissed by Allah. I know now that I declared shahadah.

I stayed in that Mosque for 3 days. I learned from the brothers and the Imam and walked out a Muslim.

Yeah ... it's a true story. I am an educated man, a rational man, a worldly man, and not a person who is given over to emotions. Perhaps it was simply a moment of psychosis, but a moment of psychosis that had me drive to a Mosque. Not to the nearest Mosque, mind you, or the one I was familiar with, but to one I had no idea even existed in the first place. I had been to Mosques before in order to study a little Qur'an and try to learn some Arabic, but joining the faith was not anything that had occured to me prior to this event.

I suppose that's my revelation. Not very global, but it changed my life.

There ya go, folks.

Kind of reminds me about how and why I converted to Christianity.

~ Romandeos.

Jesus was NOT Muslim. He was not JUST a prophet. Jesus was prophet, priest, and king. He was (and is) the Son of God. He is the Messiah, who died for our sins, so that those who believe will have everlasting life. ;)

Unless he's a muslim in disguise. :D Or a liar.

i didn't realize the difference, no offense meant.

None taken, don't worry about it.

How is that logical?

Well, taken in comparison with Christianity, a semi-dualistic religion which makes little if any sense... In Christianity, their diety is all powerful, but either cannot or will not destroy the opposite power of Satan. If their diety was unable to destroy him, he would not be omnipotent, but if he didn't want to he would not be benevolent as claimed by the bible, because what kind of sick person stands by and lets people suffer when they can stop it. If you had the power to create peace between all nations, you would, wouldn't you? If you wouldn't want to, you probably either are entertained by war or just like seeing people suffer. Compared to that, Ahura Mazda, who is the source of all good is counterbalanced by Ahriman, who activley corrupts creation. One chooses between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman by one's actions. Ahura Mazda is indeed benevolent, but his benevolency is undermined by the actions of Ahriman.

Let's all remain calm and behave like the civilized people we are, folks. No need to start an argument.

In Christianity, their diety is all powerful, but either cannot or will not destroy the opposite power of Satan. If their diety was unable to destroy him, he would not be omnipotent, but if he didn't want to he would not be benevolent as claimed by the bible, because what kind of sick person stands by and lets people suffer when they can stop it. If you had the power to create peace between all nations, you would, wouldn't you? If you wouldn't want to, you probably either are entertained by war or just like seeing people suffer.

I'm going to attempt to write up an answer to this for you.

EDIT: In fact, I'd like to speak to you on MSN sometime if that is possible.

None taken, don't worry about it.



Well, taken in comparison with Christianity, a semi-dualistic religion which makes little if any sense... In Christianity, their diety is all powerful, but either cannot or will not destroy the opposite power of Satan. If their diety was unable to destroy him, he would not be omnipotent, but if he didn't want to he would not be benevolent as claimed by the bible, because what kind of sick person stands by and lets people suffer when they can stop it. If you had the power to create peace between all nations, you would, wouldn't you? If you wouldn't want to, you probably either are entertained by war or just like seeing people suffer. Compared to that, Ahura Mazda, who is the source of all good is counterbalanced by Ahriman, who activley corrupts creation. One chooses between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman by one's actions. Ahura Mazda is indeed benevolent, but his benevolency is undermined by the actions of Ahriman.

I still don't see how it qualifies your religion as logical just because Christianity is less logical. Religion is based in no small part to faith, something that cannot be quantified with logic no matter how hard you try. Logic often has very little to do with any religion, organized or not.

I still don't see how it qualifies your religion as logical just because Christianity is less logical. Religion is based in no small part to faith, something that cannot be quantified with logic no matter how hard you try. Logic often has very little to do with any religion, organized or not.

Amen.

Kind of reminds me about how and why I converted to Christianity.

~ Romandeos.

I don't see how his experience in his move to Islam is any more repugnant than the Christian woman in Texas who decided to drown her children because Jesus supposedly told her to in order to save them from Hell.

I'm going to attempt to write up an answer to this for you.

EDIT: In fact, I'd like to speak to you on MSN sometime if that is possible.

Sure thing, chronomaw@msn.com

I'm online right now.

I still don't see how it qualifies your religion as logical just because Christianity is less logical. Religion is based in no small part to faith, something that cannot be quantified with logic no matter how hard you try. Logic often has very little to do with any religion, organized or not.
That is true, but isn't what I have said easier to believe?

None taken, don't worry about it.



Well, taken in comparison with Christianity, a semi-dualistic religion which makes little if any sense... In Christianity, their diety is all powerful, but either cannot or will not destroy the opposite power of Satan. If their diety was unable to destroy him, he would not be omnipotent, but if he didn't want to he would not be benevolent as claimed by the bible, because what kind of sick person stands by and lets people suffer when they can stop it. If you had the power to create peace between all nations, you would, wouldn't you? If you wouldn't want to, you probably either are entertained by war or just like seeing people suffer. Compared to that, Ahura Mazda, who is the source of all good is counterbalanced by Ahriman, who activley corrupts creation. One chooses between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman by one's actions. Ahura Mazda is indeed benevolent, but his benevolency is undermined by the actions of Ahriman.

Actually there is a good reason why god does not defeat the other opposing power.. you may or may not be knolwedgebale about the orgin of Satan... Satan is actually name Lucifer... Angel of light, considered highest of all angels.. However he fell from grace when he became corrupted for a disire of power... wanting gods power... Being the higest of angels he was in Godes greatest graces, and because god loved him so he gave him the power he diesred.. but at the same time cast punishment on him for giving into lust greed and envy...

God does not interfer on our behalf because all of life is a test.. we are given the power of choice.. to do good or evil.. every other occurance is a test of our devotion to god.. and endurance ... You may see somethign like a Tsunami as a massive tradgedy.. thousands of children dying.. but the tradgeity is only on those who lived... and the test is for them to continue life having suffered the loss of love... for those killed they are already in gods good graces and hopefully all in heaven..

I don't see how his experience in his move to Islam is any more repugnant than the Christian woman in Texas who decided to drown her children because Jesus supposedly told her to in order to save them from Hell.

I was not in any way attempting to insult his experience, but merely standing it up next to a similar experience of my own and comparing it.

Angel of light, considered highest of all angels..

Leader of God's choir actually. Supposedly the most beautiful creation, like a Dragon.

I was not in any way attempting to insult his experience, but merely standing it up next to a similar experience of my own and comparing it.
Sorry. -_-

Actually there is a good reason why god does not defeat the other opposing power.. you may or may not be knolwedgebale about the orgin of Satan... Satan is actually name Lucifer... Angel of light, considered highest of all angels.. However he fell from grace when he became corrupted for a disire of power... wanting gods power... Being the higest of angels he was in Godes greatest graces, and because god loved him so he gave him the power he diesred.. but at the same time cast punishment on him for giving into lust greed and envy...

God does not interfer on our behalf because all of life is a test.. we are given the power of choice.. to do good or evil.. every other occurance is a test of our devotion to god.. and endurance ... You may see somethign like a Tsunami as a massive tradgedy.. thousands of children dying.. but the tradgeity is only on those who lived... and the test is for them to continue life having suffered the loss of love... for those killed they are already in gods good graces and hopefully all in heaven..

Your god is omnipotent, capable of seeing all things. If indeed he is omnipotent, he would have known the choice Satan would make. If that was so, why did he create Satan to begin with? It is the same, why would he test us if he knew the path we would take?

Your god is omnipotent, capable of seeing all things. If indeed he is omnipotent, he would have known the choice Satan would make. If that was so, why did he create Satan to begin with? It is the same, why would he test us if he knew the path we would take?
actually i think heard somewhere that the modern conception of satan was highly influenced by the zoroastrians during the period of the babylonian exile for the jews and beyond. before that he was seen as having very little power.
essentually the weak dualism of judeochristian religions is an echo of the strong dualism of zoroastrianism placed onto what was previously a more absolute monotheism.

actually i think heard somewhere that the modern conception of satan was highly influenced by the zoroastrians during the period of the babylonian exile for the jews and beyond. before that he was seen as having very little power.
essentually the weak dualism of judeochristian religions is an echo of the strong dualism of zoroastrianism placed onto what was previously a more absolute monotheism.

Many scholars confirm that actually, its pretty much accepted as fact. Actually, a lot of Christian and Jewish beliefs come from Zoroastrianism.

Your god is omnipotent, capable of seeing all things. If indeed he is omnipotent, he would have known the choice Satan would make. If that was so, why did he create Satan to begin with? It is the same, why would he test us if he knew the path we would take?

Because of a little something called "Free Will" and "Faith"...

How could there be either if an omnipotent God was to "force" His will on everyone? He wants us to “come” to Him of our own Free Will… Omnipotent doesn’t mean that everything has been “pre-determined”, does it?

It isn't called "Faith" for nothing.

Regards,
Gaar

i really dont see why the muslims in this thread are bitching about having to answer the questions/issues people are rasing or having to restate themselves.. people obviously dont understand what they are saying or they arn't making sense and so there is a lack of connection... if you dont want to answer these types of questions or address these types of issues.. you should not be so openly soliciting this type of conversation..
I don't think anyone is bitching about anything other than you...

Wow, Keru, that's almost as crazy as VoteEarly's "Revelation" story.

Your god is omnipotent, capable of seeing all things. If indeed he is omnipotent, he would have known the choice Satan would make. If that was so, why did he create Satan to begin with? It is the same, why would he test us if he knew the path we would take?

These are complexities we as mortals can't help to comprehend .. or atleast I can't comprehend them... Perhaps even he cannot see past the choice we have yet to make... Perhaps he wants to give us every opprotunity... perhaps the future is never a definate.. (i dont like to think it is) in that destiny is not fortold.. perhaps he sees our paths... and there are many paths which can be had through our many choices to be made... so he tests us (hoping to guide us on the best path)... I would say this is thea as well transferable on Satan.. Perhaps Satans future had many paths to be had... God seeing all the possible choices creates him out of love hoping he will take the right path..... God is suppose to be an all loving being and so even in the case of Satan who vyes with god in compeition for souls he cannot bring himself to smite him...

Ive always loved the story of Lucifer and God

I don't think anyone is bitching about anything other than you...

Im not bitching.. im just throwing questions out there.. the other kid made himself open to all questions ... and i happen to think some up... as well i dont think the answer I've been given are either that clear or suffient.. thats why im pushing... its not because i want to enrage people or that im looking for the contradiction...

I know my mind will never be changed ( i happen to be quite pleased with my catholic faith) and im sure i wont change any of the minds of you die hard muslims.. so im just trying to better understand your position..

I am going to respond to the whole free will comment with regards to Christianity, sorry to continue this off topic.

I've never bought the whole free will argument when it comes to God's omnipotence and benevolence. As a parent, if you had kids, you would want them to live their own lives, make their own choices, but at the same time, if you saw your kids fighting with eachother, hurting eachother, you would tell them to stop it. In some cases you would even physically pull them apart and punish them for it. Giving them free will doesn't give them free reign to just do whatever they want. Even as adults, people get punished if their free will causes them to harm others. Shouldn't God, as the supposed ultimate parent of us all, take that same attitude? You would think that he would at least let us know when he disagrees with our choices, that he would want to discuss with us the consequences of our actions, even if he couldn't prevent us from doing wrong. That is, after all, what any good parent should do.

Now, that is not an attack on Christianity, and for most of my life i believed in God, though now i'm an agnostic. It's just something i have always thought about.

Wow, Keru, that's almost as crazy as VoteEarly's "Revelation" story.

Nah ... mine was personal, VE's was global.

I am going to respond to the whole free will comment with regards to Christianity, sorry to continue this off topic.

I've never bought the whole free will argument when it comes to God's omnipotence and benevolence. As a parent, if you had kids, you would want them to live their own lives, make their own choices, but at the same time, if you saw your kids fighting with eachother, hurting eachother, you would tell them to stop it. In some cases you would even physically pull them apart and punish them for it. Giving them free will doesn't give them free reign to just do whatever they want. Even as adults, people get punished if their free will causes them to harm others. Shouldn't God, as the supposed ultimate parent of us all, take that same attitude? You would think that he would at least let us know when he disagrees with our choices, that he would want to discuss with us the consequences of our actions, even if he couldn't prevent us from doing wrong. That is, after all, what any good parent should do.

Now, that is not an attack on Christianity, and for most of my life i believed in God, though now i'm an agnostic. It's just something i have always thought about.

Sorry but without "Free Will" there would be no reason to have "Laws" and "Rules" since no one would do anything of their own accord. Everyone would just "Know" what was the thing to do and do it...

Free Will allows us to NOT believe in God, and for that we will only have to answer to Him and not someone saying they represent Him.

Regards,
Gaar