NationStates Jolt Archive

How long will it be before religious belief is not needed by us. Since prehistoric times, humans have sought meaning in nature. One of the original beliefs was in creating powerful figures/deities to explain the unknown processes of nature. All prehistoric communities had their Gods.

As we became more civilised and sophisticated, we made temples to worship them, changed their influence, profile and abilities. Some of the "lucky" deities began to assume all powerful status and became the "creators" of the whole world, belief in those deities usually went hand in hand with warlike and aggressive tendencies which is how their influence began to spread across borders and cultures.

Today, we understand so much more than our ancestors did. We can scientifically and rationally explain the beginning of the universe, without applying any moral or ethical implications in that. The Big Bang happened, the universe began to exist. All that is today is a result of that occurence.

There is a new understanding of the nature of things. One which is only obscured by the impostition of religious values and adherance. In the past when religion has sought to impose it's values upon science, it is invariably relilgion that comes out the loser, history and rational thinking has proven this.

What of the future? Will there come a time when intelligent, non superstitious people will be able to see and reason in a rational and scientific way. Also how long before a spirituality based on human values and experience be the ethical base on which we live our lives.

Please note, this is not an invitation for extremist and bigoted views to be expressed (on either side), just an idea I've had for some time. I would invite serious responses from others on what their views are.

When will religion become obselete?

Not soon enough for my tastes. ;)

I hope it never does...

The day religion becomes extinct will be the day the human race becomes extinct.

Sadly, religion will never become "obselete."

Sadly, religion will never become "obselete."

Sadly I believe you're correct. There will always be people who are too afraid to live life on life's terms and will need a source of a life long Santa Claus of some sort.

WHen it's replaced by something even more obscene. :(

This would require God to become obsolete, wouldn't it? I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon. :p

Seriously, though, opinions on this will depend (at least in part) upon the beliefs of whoever is answering the question. I, for example, believe in the existence of God, so I doubt that religion is going to become obsolete anytime soon, if ever.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

I hope it never does. I just hope that everyone can learn to practise it maturely, and without wanting to destroy/convert everyone else.

(and I recognise that most religious people DO do that, but I want everyone!)

Well Catholicism is slowly eroding and Judaism has remained where it was. Islam is growing. It's just a question of time. Personally I'm agnostic so whether it stays or goes doesn't bother me but I do think a little bit of religion is good. If, at the very least, those who worship the religion follow its true morals then they will be good people because that's really all the Bible and other texts are, aside from historical accounts (albeit overexaggerated ones). They are very good books on morals.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Jordaxia and, to a lesser extent, Layarteb.

There will always be people who are too afraid to live life on life's terms and will need a source of a life long Santa Claus of some sort.
Could you clarify this a bit, please? I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

This topic is a nice one, thus far. But it's only a matter of time before certain "numbskulls" come on here and begin a flame war or whine flamebait in moderation so to all future readers, keep your COOL!

In my view, it already has become obsolete.

Never. As technology progresses and values progress, our safety and security will become even more unstable then ever before. People, a lot of people, need to have something to believe in.

Probably never.

Never. Technology would soon prove God exists. :D

Never. Technology would soon prove God exists. :D

And the day when it is undeniable that God exists/doesn't exist will be either the most glorious day in the world or the most tragic day in the world. Let's face it, billions of people believe in God and if someone undeniable proof comes out that He doesn't exist (which I doubt most people would believe even if it's true) would start an apocalyse of epic proportions. That and it would tell all of us agnostics where we should be: Yes or No. LOL! But I doubt it'll ever be proven. The only people who know 100% that God exists/doesn't exist are those who have died and they can't really tell us so. I'd like to believe there is a heaven and a hell but I just can't without knowing full well...

It is already obsolete, we don't need it. But it will alwyas exist. As the major religions are failing people, new smaller fringe religions are growing - Scientology, Fundamentalist Christianity, Fundamentalist Islam, Druidism, Kabalism...

With luck so many will form that no-one will listen to any of them to make decisions.

The day religion becomes extinct will be the day the human race becomes extinct.
You assume that only humans have religion. I know for a fact that there are other species that worship some supernatural deity.

Religions, large and small, are rapidly falling into their roles of being no more than stumbling blocks for getting things done in the world. Religion will likely persist well into the next millenium, continuing its track record of undermining equality and breeding discord.

You assume that only humans have religion. I know for a fact that there are other species that worship some supernatural deity.
Care to elaborate?

I hope not, more people have been killed by avowedly aethiestic governments in the 20th Century then under faith-based ones in all the centuries combined.

-When people cease to believe in God, they will not believe in nothng, they will believe in anything.


WWJD
Amen.

I hope not, more people have been killed by avowedly aethiestic governments in the 20th Century then under faith-based ones in all the centuries combined.

-When people cease to believe in God, they will not believe in nothng, they will believe in anything.


WWJD
Amen.

In the 20th Century yes. But what about the previous centuries, Crusades, Inquisitions, HRE, Conqust of Europe by the Ottomans. More people have died in the name of God than any other reason. Sort of makes you wonder why these religions even bother with the "NO killing" principle.

When somebody sucessfuly travels back to the begining of the Universe and can prove beyond a doubt that there was a small ball of hydrogen which exploded and created everything.
Of course, this most likely wouldnt convince me, I happen to be very broad minded and think that the Big Bang is a great way for the Universe to have started.
Meh, come up with something else.

In any case, since people havent realized that this topic doesnt say 'When will Christianity become obsolete?', Ill throw something else out there.
Religions become obsolete all the time, I dont see many Aztec pagans out there, although there are a few Aztecs left. Most of the blood on those temples is pretty much there by accident, although Mexico might have to deal with 'extremists' on occasion.
Not as many Pagan Romans/Greeks around either, not many Pagans at all, in fact. Im not entirly sure, but I think there are more Atheists than Pagans.
Judaeism isnt as prevalent, but I beleive we can chalk that up to nearly every body else hating them for much of the worlds history, most particularly in WWII. Of course, if your Christian (or have studied Christianity, in any case), you happen to know that Jews (the race) arent going to go away until certain events take place.

Basicaly, my point is:
Religions become obsolete all the time, they are replaced by other religions, this will go on for some time.
I doubt that Religion will EVER be obsolete.

im in the center..religion has caused much bloodshed..but at the same time, non religious people cause just as much. it al depends on if you follow Gods true will...which is for us to live in harmony wiht yourselves and the planet. it will never beceome obsolete, because it cant. as we move on, we will see the error of our ways, and we will all follow the true path of life...in peave and harmony.

In the 20th Century yes. But what about the previous centuries, Crusades, Inquisitions, HRE, Conqust of Europe by the Ottomans. More people have died in the name of God than any other reason. Sort of makes you wonder why these religions even bother with the "NO killing" principle.
(Double post, sorry :P)
Of course, by the same arguement, we should remove most of Europe from the face of the Earth, especialy Spain and England.
How many Africans were killed for those nations, eh? I dont think many people beleived that Imperialisms purpose was to 'spread Christianity'.

I hope not, more people have been killed by avowedly aethiestic governments in the 20th Century then under faith-based ones in all the centuries combined.

-When people cease to believe in God, they will not believe in nothng, they will believe in anything.


WWJD
Amen.

That's because of the technology available to them, not because of their non/religious standing. I'm sure if 20th century technology had been available to the crusaders in the middle ages, then we would have seen 20th century carnage too.

I don't believe in god & I certainly don't believe in just anything.

(Double post, sorry :P)
Of course, by the same arguement, we should remove most of Europe from the face of the Earth, especialy Spain and England.
How many Africans were killed for those nations, eh? I dont think many people beleived that Imperialisms purpose was to 'spread Christianity'.

No what I'm saying is that to claim genocide has only existed from atheistic governments is absurd considering the history of Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, etc. I mean let's face it, whether a country is atheist or theist they're not immune to the evils and ills of humanity.

That's because of the technology available to them, not because of their non/religious standing. I'm sure if 20th century technology had been available to the crusaders in the middle ages, then we would have seen 20th century carnage too.

I don't believe in god & I certainly don't believe in just anything.


I can see it now...A giant Holy Hand Grenade crashing down on Istanbul.

Sadly I believe you're correct. There will always be people who are too afraid to live life on life's terms and will need a source of a life long Santa Claus of some sort.
You don't even know what Santa Claus is for...

No what I'm saying is that to claim genocide has only existed from atheistic governments is absurd considering the history of Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, etc. I mean let's face it, whether a country is atheist or theist they're not immune to the evils and ills of humanity.
Ah, righty then :)
However, it should be pointed out that most 'Christian' nations which, say, launch a Crusade, are no more Christian that Stalin was Communist. I imagine you know this, but I figure it should be out there for people to see :)

Ah, righty then :)
However, it should be pointed out that most 'Christian' nations which, say, launch a Crusade, are no more Christian that Stalin was Communist. I imagine you know this, but I figure it should be out there for people to see :)

Oh no I'm fully aware but when you have the Church in Rome backing it then something is amiss, albeit the Pope wasn't exactly Pope-ish. But the statement that only avowdly atheist governments commit mass murder is absurd. Hell look at all the stuff in Africa where tribal nations went to war because the others did not believe in their gods.

Oh no I'm fully aware but when you have the Church in Rome backing it then something is amiss, albeit the Pope wasn't exactly Pope-ish. But the statement that only avowdly atheist governments commit mass murder is absurd. Hell look at all the stuff in Africa where tribal nations went to war because the others did not believe in their gods.
Indeed, one can only hope that about three quarters of the so-called Popes are burning in some sort of Hell.
Africans kill each other for little or no reason, not to sound like a horrible racist or anything, but its true. Well, its true of most of the world, but it seems to happen more in Africa.
I remember one particular 'conflict' where there was a race issue, basicaly if you had a small nose, you were shot.

However, it should also be said that religion has done many good things as well, look at the Salvation Army, all the hospitals and assorted shelters. Most 'free' stuff like that is at least supported by some church or other.

[QUOTE=Dontgonearthere]Indeed, one can only hope that about three quarters of the so-called Popes are burning in some sort of Hell.QUOTE]

Particularly the one that gave birth. :D

How long will it be before religious belief is not needed by us. Since prehistoric times, humans have sought meaning in nature. One of the original beliefs was in creating powerful figures/deities to explain the unknown processes of nature. All prehistoric communities had their Gods.

As we became more civilised and sophisticated, we made temples to worship them, changed their influence, profile and abilities. Some of the "lucky" deities began to assume all powerful status and became the "creators" of the whole world, belief in those deities usually went hand in hand with warlike and aggressive tendencies which is how their influence began to spread across borders and cultures.

Today, we understand so much more than our ancestors did. We can scientifically and rationally explain the beginning of the universe, without applying any moral or ethical implications in that. The Big Bang happened, the universe began to exist. All that is today is a result of that occurence.

There is a new understanding of the nature of things. One which is only obscured by the impostition of religious values and adherance. In the past when religion has sought to impose it's values upon science, it is invariably relilgion that comes out the loser, history and rational thinking has proven this.

What of the future? Will there come a time when intelligent, non superstitious people will be able to see and reason in a rational and scientific way. Also how long before a spirituality based on human values and experience be the ethical base on which we live our lives.

Please note, this is not an invitation for extremist and bigoted views to be expressed (on either side), just an idea I've had for some time. I would invite serious responses from others on what their views are.


Technically we cannot scientifically explain the creation of the universe or even the structure and complexity of nature itself on just this planet....Science cannot even explain the complexities of humans the mental state, or even all of the functions of our brain. We undestand so little of ourselves yet we THINK science is the end all answer. Maybe when science can begin to answer these basic questions we have of our own lives and then of nature and our origin (with some more basic difinity) we can BEGIN to talk about the obsoleteness of religion

It really all depends on what you are talking about. Someday, people might make decisions without any thought to religion. However, I think that most people need a moral compass, and it is very handy indeed to have a premade one. To religious people, I'm not insulting you if you have your own morals reached through careful thought. I'm just saying that plenty of people use religion as a moral crutch.

Well Catholicism is slowly eroding I have to point out this inaccuracy. The Catholic Church is growing very fast in China (yay!).

Religion will never become obsolete, because it is actually impossible to disprove God.

Technically we cannot scientifically explain the creation of the universe or even the structure and complexity of nature itself on just this planet....Science cannot even explain the complexities of humans the mental state, or even all of the functions of our brain. We undestand so little of ourselves yet we THINK science is the end all answer. Maybe when science can begin to answer these basic questions we have of our own lives and then of nature and our origin (with some more basic difinity) we can BEGIN to talk about the obsoleteness of religion
I agree with much of what you say. However Science should not be viewed as the "New Religion", rather, as the medium by which we rationally come to greater understanding of that which we are ignorant about.

It is my view that religious views obfuscate and hinder scientific enquiry. Also science can admit to be wrong,or confused, on occasions. However, with a scienticic analysis, greater knowledge can come from past failures.

Religious views, tend to catch up sooner or later but history has shown us, it has been scientific enquiry that has helped us progress both spiritually and physically.

I would like to see the day when humans can take credit for their own moral, ethical and spiritual accomplishments without passing responsibility on to some other "greater power" to decide all that for them. I believe when that occurs, we can truly call ourselves moral and civilised beings.

Not in our lifetime.Religion is a meme and feeds upon humanities need to feel comfortable about the unknown.As knowledge increases,the meme of religion as a lifestyle will diminish,yet some of the paegentry and symbolism will take longer to fall into obsolesence.

And as a note to religionists,God/Goddess believers and atheists.The common thread in all atrocities,wars,purges,progroms,murders and general unpleasantness is.....Humans.We are inherently good and evil.It is our perception that classifies good and evil.Other species have not communicated to us their opinions so that the masses can understand.

Peace Out

christanity decays because of its belivers... judasim decays because you have to be in the bloodline... Islam grows because of bush...

it will be a marvelous day when the vatacan falls, but im sure it wont happen in our lifetime. our greatest hope is that the new holy war against people dosent end all of humanity. But i think that religions come and go like pairs of underwear, when they have that huge hole then people look for something easier

What of the future? Will there come a time when intelligent, non superstitious people will be able to see and reason in a rational and scientific way. Also how long before a spirituality based on human values and experience be the ethical base on which we live our lives.

I hope it comes soon.

Technically we cannot scientifically explain the creation of the universe or even the structure and complexity of nature itself on just this planet....Science cannot even explain the complexities of humans the mental state, or even all of the functions of our brain. We undestand so little of ourselves yet we THINK science is the end all answer. Maybe when science can begin to answer these basic questions we have of our own lives and then of nature and our origin (with some more basic difinity) we can BEGIN to talk about the obsoleteness of religion

And, as long as people are SO EAGER for an answer to the unanswerable - we will ALWAYS have religions.

For me - as an Atheist, the BIGGEST jump I had to make, from being a 'Christian', was that I had to accept that there were questions that will NEVER be answered.

What happens after death? I will NEVER know, in my life.

As long as people NEED answers to questions like that, we will have religions... because they provide 'answers' to unanswerable questions.

Of course, as an Atheist... whether THOSE answers have any real MEANING is debatable.. but they serve to help some people to deal with their lives.

Religion will only die, when there is undeniable proof that all the religions are full of shit basically and the next generation of kids, just stop practicing.

There will still be Deists though.

And as for Judiasm, i highly doubt the religion will ever die, we survived the holocaust, we survived the inquistion, we've survived slavery and forced conversions. Heck i know one Atheist that comes to shul(synagouge) every week.

She doesn't believe in G-d, but still respects the religion enough to teach it to her kids.

Care to elaborate?
You never took the tour of heaven have you?

On its ideas, religion is already obselete; on its uses (e.g. justifying your views/decisions) it is still a very useful.

Ah, righty then :)
However, it should be pointed out that most 'Christian' nations which, say, launch a Crusade, are no more Christian that Stalin was Communist. I imagine you know this, but I figure it should be out there for people to see :)
The crusades were a justified and totally above-board campaign toi reclaim the holy land from muslim fanatics, who had captured it and slaughtered all christians who opposed them.
Stalin was an insame mass murderer who killed to keep his rampant paranoia at bay. I feel that the head muslim honchos should apologise top the pope for nicking the holy land imn the first place

christanity decays because of its belivers... judasim decays because you have to be in the bloodline... Islam grows because of bush...

it will be a marvelous day when the vatacan falls, but im sure it wont happen in our lifetime. our greatest hope is that the new holy war against people dosent end all of humanity. But i think that religions come and go like pairs of underwear, when they have that huge hole then people look for something easier
Twill be an awful day if the vatican falls before mecca. The catholic faith (not that I am one) is relatively modern in its approach whereas many muslims pray daily for the death of the infidel. Lets just make sure that the vatican is the last treligious stronghold tom fall, then we'll all be safer

I've really grown tired of such arguements, mainly because only 2 sides ever seem to be represented. Atheists and those of the Abramic Faiths. What many people seem unable to grasp is that are more points of view than that. And unlike the Abramics many faiths do not follow an absolutist belief(not that all abramics are such either but the loudest have a tendency to be as such). Again this argument can't be aproached absolutely. Some aspects of religion have become while others have not. Others will someday as well become obsolete. But this is precisely why so many different belief systems as there are today. They adapt and change over time. Sadly, this cannot be applied to all belief system. some rigidly hold onto traditions and outdated beliefs. Which is also why I have issues with more dogmatic religions. I belive a belief system has to be something ever evolving like life itself. It must be able to adapt to changes in life and embrace them. It should be ever changing and growing like a tree with enough branches for each person. Belief systems that are not like this are in my eyes obsolete but far from most are such.

So, for those of you who I confused with my weird train of though or jus not in the mood to read all that, to put it simply; religion will not necesarilly become obsolote but some religions will and even are in my eyes but I feel none of us has the right to say who's right and who's wrong. There's just verying views and everyone has the right to that but it's tiring when 2 point of views constantly duke it out ignoring the rest. And yes, I'm pagan.

On its ideas, religion is already obselete; on its uses (e.g. justifying your views/decisions) it is still a very useful.

how is religion already obselete in its ideas ? the ideas of religion are morality and humanity.. these are ideas which cannot become obselete.. especially in light of "aparent" human nature and the falicies of soceity

I've really grown tired of such arguements, mainly because only 2 sides ever seem to be represented. Atheists and those of the Abramic Faiths. What many people seem unable to grasp is that are more points of view than that. And unlike the Abramics many faiths do not follow an absolutist belief(not that all abramics are such either but the loudest have a tendency to be as such). Again this argument can't be aproached absolutely. Some aspects of religion have become while others have not. Others will someday as well become obsolete. But this is precisely why so many different belief systems as there are today. They adapt and change over time. Sadly, this cannot be applied to all belief system. some rigidly hold onto traditions and outdated beliefs. Which is also why I have issues with more dogmatic religions. I belive a belief system has to be something ever evolving like life itself. It must be able to adapt to changes in life and embrace them. It should be ever changing and growing like a tree with enough branches for each person. Belief systems that are not like this are in my eyes obsolete but far from most are such.

So, for those of you who I confused with my weird train of though or jus not in the mood to read all that, to put it simply; religion will not necesarilly become obsolote but some religions will and even are in my eyes but I feel none of us has the right to say who's right and who's wrong. There's just verying views and everyone has the right to that but it's tiring when 2 point of views constantly duke it out ignoring the rest. And yes, I'm pagan.


Its quite easy as to why you only see these two opinions reflected... arguments "for" religion which are supported by who you call abamics are representative of the major religions.. of course there are tons of smaller groups.. but these groups are so small in size they fail to reflect a meaningful segment of the world population, while atheists are the most loud directly controdicting and challenging these faiths directly... Since the arguments made by atheists are (often) directed toward the 3 major relgioins judism christianity and islam why then would you expect other groups to be reflected in the argument ?

People that say Science is the absolute truth have never studied science.

There's always something to be discovered, a therorem to be disproven, something to shake up the bottle a little bit. No real scientist (or group of scientists, for that matter) you will ever meet will say that he/she has the definitive answers to all of the questions of the universe. It's that simple. It's mere folly for an individual to say such a thing.

As such, there is always a necessity to make sense of what we cannot know. Human nature is one such thing. Is there some math formula that we can use to figure out how Bruno down the street is going to react when you call him a 'cad and a bounder?' Yeah, you could make a guess, but are you sure No. The beginning of the Universe is another. The Big Bang Theory is just that. A theory. What happens if a better theory comes along? That's what happened to Newtonian mechanics.

Religion will always be there for the people who want something to tie it all together. That's what religion is good for, and what it will continue to be good for. Unfortunately, Religion hasn't conquered human nature, and it probably never will. ;)

The crusades were a justified and totally above-board campaign toi reclaim the holy land from muslim fanatics, who had captured it and slaughtered all christians who opposed them.
Stalin was an insame mass murderer who killed to keep his rampant paranoia at bay. I feel that the head muslim honchos should apologise top the pope for nicking the holy land imn the first place

as usual, two evils do not make a right. the betrayal of your core beliefs isn't justifiable simply because another religion's practicers have betrayed theirs.

oh, and the catholics did the exact same thing to Spain, which was a Muslim territory long before christianity came there. they forced all the muslims there to convert or move out (as well as the jews), and slaughtered and tortured those that did not complain.

on their way to the crusades, thousands of participants (especially in france) tortured, raped, and killed (in horrific fashion) almost all the Jews they could find. justified? i think not.

p.s. the pope took four hundred years to apologise to Galileo Galilei. if it takes that long for a major religion to suck up its pride in respect to just one man, i suggest you reiterate your request for an apology in, say, four million years? about?

First, I would like to say, I am not a member of any organized religion, as that is just not my style. :cool:

Second, I would like to say that I believe in higher powers, complex forces at work to give us balance and purpose.

And now to answer the actual question: When will religion become obsolete?
Honestly? I doubt it ever will. People need something to believe, and science leaves too many unanswered questions. I believe the chances are that it always will, for we will never know everything in the infinite universe. Religion gives a very clear answer to some of life's most important question, and allows people to see wrong and right as clear as day and night. That can never be obsolete.

Twill be an awful day if the vatican falls before mecca. The catholic faith (not that I am one) is relatively modern in its approach whereas many muslims pray daily for the death of the infidel. Lets just make sure that the vatican is the last treligious stronghold tom fall, then we'll all be safer

not to burst your bubble, but every single muslim i've ever met was far more kind, generous, and respectful of others (especially in terms of religion) than the huge majority of christians i've encountered (and yes, my family is historically christian).

to give you some background on islam:

islam is an abrahamic religion that basically believes that the line of prophets didn't end after Jesus, but rather with another man named Muhammad. just as in christianity, they believe in and respect the ideas presented by the Ten Commandments, as well as the Five Pillars of Islam, which describe the basics that a muslim should do towards fulfilling their obligation to God, including giving to charity and making the pilgrimage to mecca.

the idea of covering their women, so reviled by western civilization, is an idea that has only come about in relatively recent times and is in no way demanded in the Qu'ran itself, comparable to the belief of many modern Christians that modesty in dress means full-length dresses at all times.

at the same time, any muslim who prays for the death of 'infidels,' as you claim, is either completely misguided or insane. remember that such prominent christians as Ann Coulter remarked after 9/11 that "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to christianity." remarkably similar, no?