NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm sure this one has been done before but I can't find them, so...

What do you think about Israel/Palestine? It's a terribly confusing place. I mean, think about it...the Israeli's say they have a right to the land because they lived there first. The Palestinians say they have a right to the land because they have lived there for thousands of years and the Israelis forced them out. Jerusalem is the most Holy city for the Jews and the 3rd most Holy for Muslims. So niether is willing to let go of it. Who do you thikn should have it?

Secondly, what about Christians? I mean, when you think about it, Christians should probably be just as involved....seeing as Jesus means more to Christianity than he does to the other two (although they both see him as a Prophet, only Christianity sees him as part of God). So why don't Christians make a claim?


My own personal opinion is that Although both have a reasonable point, the Israeli's have forfeited their claim to the land by their actions. In escaping the holocaust in Europe in which Jews were one of a number of people persecuted by the Nazi's, they went to Palestine and drove out the Palestinians by first moving into Palestine (the first and second Aliyah's, as they were called) and acquiring 7% of the land. They then, through acts of blatant terrorism, caused Britain to decide to pull out, and forced the UN (Which was at this point only 2 years old) to come up with a plan for Palestine. The UN divided it up 50-50 for both, however the Zionists soon had plans to acquire the rest of Palestine, and in a number of wars fought off the Arabs in surrounding nations to claim almost all of what used to be Palestine (The rest became part of modern-day Jordan).

I hate to say this because I risk being called anti-semitic (slightly off topic, but did you know, the semites actually include both the Arabs and the Jews? so technically by saying anti-semitic, you are being biased against both), but I believe that the atrocious actions by the Jews in Palestine was not acceptable no matter what they went through in WWII, and through those actions, they have morally forfeited their claim to the land.

So you think the Palestinians have a claim to the land? That they haven't commited acts of terrorism?

I think neither country should use "We were there first" as an excuse. If that were the case, the Americans could get out, the Australians the same. In my opinion, if the palestinians want land, they should stop blowing up innocent civilians. That forfeited their claim to the land as well, so by your views, neither people should have it.

Anyway, I have no intention of getting involved here, as this has been done to death, then redone.

My last word:
Zionists: People who are pro-Jewish
Jews: People belonging to the religion called Judaism
Israelis: The one you meant to use, people who live in Israel.

-snip-

I agree with Sanctaphrax.

By your logic, neither country should claim the land. Oh, and can I see some sources about all the Jewish 'Terrorism' when the state was formed?

Israel has fought for peace, and it is the ignorance of palestine militants that is causing this fight for peace to fail.

I'm not saying that they're not extriemists on both sides, all I want is peace in Israel so my family will be protected. At least Israel is making a decent attempt to pull out of Gaza.

This subject has been fought so many times, I don't know why I bother.

Firstly, a redefinition of terms:

Zionist: A person who believes that Jews should move back to the Holy Land, Israel. The founder of the modern-day Zionist movement, Herzl, believed that they might be able to move to other countries, however, once he died that idea was abolished and it was decided that it must be Israel.

Jews: i agree

Israelis: I still believe that Palestine should be called Palestine, therefor, when I say Israelis, i mean Jews that live in the land that they call Israel.


Secondly, have a think about it. The Arabs have no conventional weapons; they have no armies, only their suicide bombers. There is a war going on and they are fighting with whatever they can fight with. Yes, I believe that their murder of innocent victims is terrible, however I also believe that the root cause of this is the Jewish occupation of Palestine.

"They then, through acts of blatant terrorism, caused Britain to decide to pull out, and forced the UN (Which was at this point only 2 years old) to come up with a plan for Palestine. The UN divided it up 50-50 for both, however the Zionists soon had plans to acquire the rest of Palestine, and in a number of wars fought off the Arabs in surrounding nations to claim almost all of what used to be Palestine (The rest became part of modern-day Jordan)."

Crap.

There was terror. Sure there was. Brutal bloody terror- and it was a group of less than 500 of the Zionists in pre-Israel that was doing it.
No one forced the UN to do anything. The crisis in the area lasted from the 1920's and the UN felt like it had to do something. So it divided the land. The arabs saw the entire land as their own and Israel's independence war started. At that time the Zionists didn't have any plans to acquire all of the land, as- think about it- they were a newly founded country surrounded by hostile countries, with no real interest in a war. the arabs sure had an interest to fight and regain their land. However, surprisingly, the Zionists won.
Sucks, eh?
More wars were held. Some started because of the Arabs, some because of Israel. Israel gained territories, Israel withdrawed from territories.

But you know what really interests ME? Eastern Europe. Talking about the Balkan(sp?) and the Bosnia-Serbia war. What the hell happened THERE?

The Palestinians really had no choice about having their land taken away and used to create a new state.

They have a right to their own state.

So do the Israelis.

Perhaps the Israelis should pull out of the Gaza strip and West Bank and remove the travel restrictions. The only reason for all the terrorism is the state sponsored terrorism of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.If trhey left, they wouldn't have to worry about Hamas, the PLO and all the other militant groups. It's simple. The Israeli hard-liners should stop being so stubborn and GET THE FUCK OUT!

Secondly, have a think about it. The Arabs have no conventional weapons; they have no armies, only their suicide bombers. There is a war going on and they are fighting with whatever they can fight with. Yes, I believe that their murder of innocent victims is terrible, however I also believe that the root cause of this is the Jewish occupation of Palestine.

They can never really have a military.

Why?

Because ever since the Israelis were put there by allied forces, they have used suicide bombings to target civilians. They never gave Israelis a chance, they started an attack. It's not like the Jews particually wanted to be placed in Israel, they would have prefered their life back in their country of origin, without the threat of Nazism and Anti-Semitism.

So for this reason that the Palestinians attack civilians, who is going to entrust them a tank?

Geez, no modern military company would even think about it.

Sure, Israel does kill innocents, but that is because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, while Israel crack-downs are targetting militants. Admittedly in sometimes, young soldiers make mistakes, and loss of civilian palestinians do happen, yet it's hardly comparable to the suicide bombers who consistently target civilians.

To sum up:

Israel = Targets militants, accidents happen.
Palestine = Targets civilians and Military personnel.

Who is the real root cause now?

Perhaps the Israelis should pull out of the Gaza strip and West Bank and remove the travel restrictions. The only reason for all the terrorism is the state sponsored terrorism of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.If trhey left, they wouldn't have to worry about Hamas, the PLO and all the other militant groups. It's simple. The Israeli hard-liners should stop being so stubborn and GET THE FUCK OUT!

They are pulling out of the Gaza strip, read the news, all Israeli settlements are being pulled out, and all military personnel this summer.

They can never really have a military.

Why?

Because ever since the Israelis were put there by allied forces, they have used suicide bombings to target civilians. They never gave Israelis a chance, they started an attack. It's not like the Jews particually wanted to be placed in Israel, they would have prefered their life back in their country of origin, without the threat of Nazism and Anti-Semitism.

So for this reason that the Palestinians attack civilians, who is going to entrust them a tank?

Geez, no modern military company would even think about it.

Sure, Israel does kill innocents, but that is because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, while Israel crack-downs are targetting militants. Admittedly in sometimes, young soldiers make mistakes, and loss of civilian palestinians do happen, yet it's hardly comparable to the suicide bombers who consistently target civilians.

To sum up:

Israel = Targets militants, accidents happen.
Palestine = Targets civilians and Military personnel.

Who is the real root cause now?

Israel:uses MISSILES on busy streets. Oh gee, that's not gonna hurt anyone...
Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.

But you know what really interests ME? Eastern Europe. Talking about the Balkan(sp?) and the Bosnia-Serbia war. What the hell happened THERE?

Indeed, you hear alot about the Israeli - Palestine wars, but there are very few threads about the Bosnia-Serbia war.

Like it's been forgotten.

They are pulling out of the Gaza strip, read the news, all Israeli settlements are being pulled out, and all military personnel this summer.


The Gaza Strip... What about the West Bank?

The settlers will just move over there. Just moving them around. That sucks.

Firstly, yes,its true, i think, that in todays world...as long as the Palestinians were allowed to move freely in the country, then there would be nowhere near as many problems.

Secondly, OH MY. Don't even start me on the Balkans. We have a history spanning hundreds of years of tension over that area. Putting the Balkans into one nation (Yugoslavia) was quite possibly the most amazingly stupid thing anyone did - well from a reasonable point of view, anyway. owever, it worked. Bosnia, which once was and should still be, a part of Croatia, has been filled with enough Serbs to ensure that it cannot become part of Croatia again..


Don't we live in a fantastic world? I mean, really...just study the Balkans and the Middle East, and maybe Rwanda and Darfur and you'll get to realise just how nice and peaceful and comfortable our world is today. Gotta love it.

Israel:uses MISSILES on busy streets. Oh gee, that's not gonna hurt anyone...
Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.

Lets see.

A missle or a battalion of Israeli troops?

Either way you're going to complain, so there is nothing more to say on that.

Oh!, gee, you make me laugh. Palestinians don't target civilians? WOW, because all those school buses and pizza restaurants are packed full of Israeli troops, hell I think they may even have barracks inside them!! [/sarcasm]

Secondly, OH MY. Don't even start me on the Balkans. We have a history spanning hundreds of years of tension over that area. Putting the Balkans into one nation (Yugoslavia) was quite possibly the most amazingly stupid thing anyone did - well from a reasonable point of view, anyway. owever, it worked. Bosnia, which once was and should still be, a part of Croatia, has been filled with enough Serbs to ensure that it cannot become part of Croatia again..


Don't we live in a fantastic world? I mean, really...just study the Balkans and the Middle East, and maybe Rwanda and Darfur and you'll get to realise just how nice and peaceful and comfortable our world is today. Gotta love it.

Ha, I think that is something we can agree on :p

The Palestinians really had no choice about having their land taken away and used to create a new state.

They have a right to their own state.

So do the Israelis.

Perhaps the Israelis should pull out of the Gaza strip and West Bank and remove the travel restrictions. The only reason for all the terrorism is the state sponsored terrorism of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.If they left, they wouldn't have to worry about Hamas, the PLO and all the other militant groups. It's simple. The Israeli hard-liners should stop being so stubborn and GET THE FUCK OUT!

Seems like things are heading that direction anyways, so we'll just have to wait and see if things will really get that better.

Illuminati. hihihi. FNORD.

Personally, I think the best thing that could happen is if they moved everybody out of Jerusalem and nuked that god forsaken crust of dirt.

Holy land my ass! Any holy meaning that city once had has been washed away in blood a thousand times over. Irradiate it. Let it cool for 50,000 years.

The Israelis and Palestinians deserve eachother. The only real crime is that the world is funding their mutual demise.

Israel:uses MISSILES on busy streets. Oh gee, that's not gonna hurt anyone...
Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.

Hmmm, let's bomb ourselves in a night-club, I bet they are all soldiers under cover...

Personally, I think the best thing that could happen is if they moved everybody out of Jerusalem and nuked that god forsaken crust of dirt.

Holy land my ass! Any holy meaning that city once had has been washed away in blood a thousand times over. Irradiate it. Let it cool for 50,000 years.

The Israelis and Palestinians deserve eachother. The only real crime is that the world is funding their mutual demise.
*donates $.01 to LG's cause*

Lets see.

A missle or a battalion of Israeli troops?

Either way you're going to complain, so there is nothing more to say on that.

Oh!, gee, you make me laugh. Palestinians don't target civilians? WOW, because all those school buses and pizza restaurants are packed full of Israeli troops, hell I think they may even have barracks inside them!! [/sarcasm]

I didn't say 'exclusively', did I?
At least troops can hit the target without killing a whole street, or ripping apart a camp.
And it's missile.Yes, I'm am going to be very petty here.

Personally, I think the best thing that could happen is if they moved everybody out of Jerusalem and nuked that god forsaken crust of dirt.

Holy land my ass! Any holy meaning that city once had has been washed away in blood a thousand times over. Irradiate it. Let it cool for 50,000 years.

The Israelis and Palestinians deserve eachother. The only real crime is that the world is funding their mutual demise.

hear hear.

Yep, by now the Israelis and the Arabs are comparable to Croatians and Serbs or Communists and Fascists. There has been too long of too much fighting for either to be willing to really rest....I do not doubt that this ceacefire will not last. Truly, it is partly our fault for allowing the situation to occur, and for today funding it.

I didn't say 'exclusively', did I?
At least troops can hit the target without killing a whole street, or ripping apart a camp.
And it's missile.Yes, I'm am going to be very petty here.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

We're arn't going to change eachothers views :p

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

We're arn't going to change eachothers views :p

Yeah.

The Palestinians really had no choice about having their land taken away and used to create a new state.

They have a right to their own state.

So do the Israelis.

Perhaps the Israelis should pull out of the Gaza strip and West Bank and remove the travel restrictions. The only reason for all the terrorism is the state sponsored terrorism of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.If trhey left, they wouldn't have to worry about Hamas, the PLO and all the other militant groups. It's simple. The Israeli hard-liners should stop being so stubborn and GET THE FUCK OUT!
The Palestinians had a choice. A very good one:
They had the choice back in the beginning to side with Israel, which would have left them fine; remain neutral, which would have left them fine; or side with the invading Arabs, and lose the land (granted, no one predicted that outcome, but still). They sided with the Arabs, and got what was coming to them. Throw away your nation, and you lose it.
Then, they tried to pull a coup in Jordan, which removed their chance to settle there. Again, if they hadn't, they could have probably settled in Jordan.
Then, Israel gave them their country back, and the result was increased terrorism, and them using their new sovereignty to house terrorists safely, despite the fact that they were supposed to be helping Israel stop them. Israel predictably moved in. Again, it could have been avoided.
Now, Israel is finally pulling out after international pressure and increasing problems with maintaining the occupation. But if you think for one moment that this will stop the terrorism, you're either seriously deluded or not looking at the facts. Most of the terrorist extremist groups don't just want an autonomous Palestine. They want EVERYTHING, with Israel dropped like a bad habit. So long as Israel remains, they'll keep up the attacks, and I suspect that with Israel pulling out, Palestine will again be used as a safe haven for terrorist networks, and I wouldn't be surprised if Israel has to move in again 5 or 10 years down the line.

Now, I won't say that Israel is guiltless. They have pretty violent methods, and the hardliners make me nauseous, though that owes as much to the terrorism as anything else. Israel is a solid example of extremists giving rise to more extremists. The problem is that only one side is going to back down if the other does, and that's the Israelis. Thus, it falls on the Palestinians to back down. As soon as they do, Israel will focus its attention elsewhere, and if they ever do so completely, and cooperate in dealing with the terrorists, Israel won't have much problem with them. At worst, they'll be generally ignored. At best, they will benefit from Israel though protection and aid. The problem is they don't want that. Too many, especially those in power, still want Israel gone.

Really, you have to give the Israelis tremendous credit for even going as far as they have, which is clearly to the detriment of their nation. And sadly, the travel restrictions should remain, at least until the Palestinians get their act together and help fight against terrorism. It's stupid to allow such an obvious entry point for terrorists to go unchecked.

I read a very interesting paper a few weeks ago that put the genetic heritage of Israeli jews as being from a region just north of turkey. Apparently a good while back the whole region converted to judaism an then the people spread across Europe from there. The upshot was that most of the current Israelis had no claim to the land at all.

What concerns me is the two-faced way both sides act. The palestinians say all they want is peace, but have historically failed to stop murdering civilians. The israelis also say they want peace, but have also failed to stop the murder of civilians. Anyone who thinks it is acceptable to kill a bus load of school children is never going to be happy with a compromise, just as those who are STILL stealing land, destroying tenement blocks with children inside and shooting aid workers aren't going to accept a compromise.

Aside from irradiating the whole region (thanks for that idea LG) the only way to stop it is to disarm both sides and dump a load of UN peace keepers in to run security until they have all calmed down.

I think the Palestinians should try non-violent resistance. Just sit down and refuse to budge.
Well, it's worked before...

I think the Palestinians should try non-violent resistance. Just sit down and refuse to budge.
Well, it's worked before...

The israeli army would napalm them on the grounds one of them looked like they had a gun.

And the world would ignore it.

The israeli army would napalm them on the grounds one of them looked like they had a gun.

And the world would ignore it.

Precisely.

And I love LG's idea ;)

Bombing nightclubs. A lot of the people are going to be over 16. Everyone over 16 in Israel is part of the Israeli war machine. So nightclubs are legitimate targets, if a legitimate target means enemy soldiers.

Bombing nightclubs. A lot of the people are going to be over 16. Everyone over 16 in Israel is part of the Israeli war machine. So nightclubs are legitimate targets, if a legitimate target means enemy soldiers.

*Refrains from Flame*

You can't justify attacks on g-ddamn civilians.

What the hell is wrong with you.

The Palestinians had a choice. A very good one:
They had the choice back in the beginning to side with Israel, which would have left them fine; remain neutral, which would have left them fine; or side with the invading Arabs, and lose the land (granted, no one predicted that outcome, but still). They sided with the Arabs, and got what was coming to them. Throw away your nation, and you lose it.
Then, they tried to pull a coup in Jordan, which removed their chance to settle there. Again, if they hadn't, they could have probably settled in Jordan.
Then, Israel gave them their country back, and the result was increased terrorism, and them using their new sovereignty to house terrorists safely, despite the fact that they were supposed to be helping Israel stop them. Israel predictably moved in. Again, it could have been avoided.
Now, Israel is finally pulling out after international pressure and increasing problems with maintaining the occupation. But if you think for one moment that this will stop the terrorism, you're either seriously deluded or not looking at the facts. Most of the terrorist extremist groups don't just want an autonomous Palestine. They want EVERYTHING, with Israel dropped like a bad habit. So long as Israel remains, they'll keep up the attacks, and I suspect that with Israel pulling out, Palestine will again be used as a safe haven for terrorist networks, and I wouldn't be surprised if Israel has to move in again 5 or 10 years down the line.

Now, I won't say that Israel is guiltless. They have pretty violent methods, and the hardliners make me nauseous, though that owes as much to the terrorism as anything else. Israel is a solid example of extremists giving rise to more extremists. The problem is that only one side is going to back down if the other does, and that's the Israelis. Thus, it falls on the Palestinians to back down. As soon as they do, Israel will focus its attention elsewhere, and if they ever do so completely, and cooperate in dealing with the terrorists, Israel won't have much problem with them. At worst, they'll be generally ignored. At best, they will benefit from Israel though protection and aid. The problem is they don't want that. Too many, especially those in power, still want Israel gone.

Really, you have to give the Israelis tremendous credit for even going as far as they have, which is clearly to the detriment of their nation. And sadly, the travel restrictions should remain, at least until the Palestinians get their act together and help fight against terrorism. It's stupid to allow such an obvious entry point for terrorists to go unchecked.


Really Palestine has the right to 'drop Israel like a bad habit'. Going by the 'throw away your country and you lose it' they lost the right to Palestine in AD 70 whent he Romans took over. Surely fighting the most powerful Empire in the world constitutes throwing it away. The Palestinians had their country stolen by politicians. The Israeli government has no right to continue the occupation, all they do is make the terrorists more determined and more willing to give away their lives.
In Islam, you have the right to fight a war the way your enemy does, with whatever you can. Palestine has no military. The Israelis kill men women and children. The Palestinians are simply fighting the war the way their religion tells them to, with the only weapon they have. Their lives.
And the IDF has killed almost as many children as the terrorists groups have killed people.That's children alone.

*Refrains from Flame*

You can't justify attacks on g-ddamn civilians.

What the hell is wrong with you.

They aren't civilians. They are conscripted soldiers. Military targets. The Palestinians are merely fighting a total war.

And the IDF has killed almost as many children as the terrorists groups have killed people.That's children alone.

Lies.

Get a non-positioned source to back that up.

They aren't civilians. They are conscripted soldiers. Military targets. The Palestinians are merely fighting a total war.

That is a lie.

Israeli's are not drafted into military service until they are eighteen, and when they are OFF DUTY, they are not military targets.

Lies.

Get a non-positioned source to back that up.

It's taken from IDF statistics of Israeli casualties and Palestinian statistics. The IDF doesnt keep tabs on those it kills.

It's taken from IDF statistics of Israeli casualties and Palestinian statistics. The IDF doesnt keep tabs on those it kills.

Link?

Didn't think so, get some sources before you throw around fake information like that.

Secondly, have a think about it. The Arabs have no conventional weapons; they have no armies, only their suicide bombers. There is a war going on and they are fighting with whatever they can fight with. Yes, I believe that their murder of innocent victims is terrible, however I also believe that the root cause of this is the Jewish occupation of Palestine.
1 Yes, the Arabs have armies. Some of them are equipped with high quality American weapons. I'm thinking of the Saudis and Jordanians in particular. Or were you just talking about the palestinians? They have defense forces, and armed police. They have armed terrorist organizations too.

2 They have no conventional weapons? You are really ignorant about the situation. They have small arms (rifles and such), Rockets (including RPGs, and short range surface to surface rockets used to shell settlements and Israel propper.) They also have mortars. That's just the palestinians. Other Arab nations have all sorts of conventional weapons.

3 How do you explain then that Jews and Christians in the middle east have been subject to murder and slavery for many years before Israel? The Arabs helped Hitler. Armenian Christians from Turkey were sold as slaves in Lebanon and Syria. Jews from all over the Arab world flocked to Israel because they could be safe there. Christians from all over the Arab world flock to the USA and Europe because they feel much safer there.

The Palestinians really had no choice about having their land taken away and used to create a new state.

They have a right to their own state.

So do the Israelis.

Perhaps the Israelis should pull out of the Gaza strip and West Bank and remove the travel restrictions. The only reason for all the terrorism is the state sponsored terrorism of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.If trhey left, they wouldn't have to worry about Hamas, the PLO and all the other militant groups. It's simple. The Israeli hard-liners should stop being so stubborn and GET THE FUCK OUT!
I agree with you that Gaza and the West Bank should be given to the Palestinians. I disagree with removing all travel restrictions. The Palestinians must first prove that they can be trusted to refrain from terrorism.

Link?

Didn't think so, get some sources before you throw around fake information like that.

Link?Gimme a sec.And stop accusing people like that. Quite frankly, you're scrabbling for whatever you can get.

Israel:uses MISSILES on busy streets. Oh gee, that's not gonna hurt anyone...
Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.
Bullshit. Israel uses missiles, yes, but they target terrorists who try to hide among the palestinian population. It's the only way to prevent those terrorists from killing many Israelis.

Palestinians target Israeli civilians intentionally. Shooting to death a carload of women and little girls, blowing up busses full of working people and schoolchildren, sniping at families (even shooting babies sitting on their father's lap). That's why Israel attacks them.

Link?Gimme a sec.And stop accusing people like that. Quite frankly, you're scrabbling for whatever you can get.

Pfft why not?

Why should I let people try and justify what terrorists try to do to me and my family?

The israeli army would napalm them on the grounds one of them looked like they had a gun.

And the world would ignore it.
Bullshit. The world gives the palestinians much more sympathy than they deserve. They beleive every attrocity the palestinians can make up. Remember the supposed massacre at Jenin? Remember that hardly any bodies were found? Yet the news media around the world persisted in claiming that the Israelis had massacred most of the population of that town. If Israel attacked a peacefull protest you would be hearing about it for the next hundred years.

Really Palestine has the right to 'drop Israel like a bad habit'. Going by the 'throw away your country and you lose it' they lost the right to Palestine in AD 70 whent he Romans took over. Surely fighting the most powerful Empire in the world constitutes throwing it away. The Palestinians had their country stolen by politicians. The Israeli government has no right to continue the occupation, all they do is make the terrorists more determined and more willing to give away their lives.
In Islam, you have the right to fight a war the way your enemy does, with whatever you can. Palestine has no military. The Israelis kill men women and children. The Palestinians are simply fighting the war the way their religion tells them to, with the only weapon they have. Their lives.
And the IDF has killed almost as many children as the terrorists groups have killed people.That's children alone.
Get this through your head. The Palestinians were never forced off their land. They left willingly so that Arab armies could slaughter all the Jews in Israel without accidentally killing fellow arabs. When Israel won the war it was only logical that they kept the backstabbing palestinians out.

I have to go anyway.

I'll argue this some other time, another thread like this'll come up in a week or so, joy.

*And thanks to Kerenor and Commies and anyone else who helped defend Israel :)

They aren't civilians. They are conscripted soldiers. Military targets. The Palestinians are merely fighting a total war.
I guess little Israeli kids in schools that get indescriminately shelled, that are shot while travelling with their families, or that are killed in their own homes by snipers are soldiers too. Hail to the brave palestinian baby killers!

I have to go anyway.

I'll argue this some other time, another thread like this'll come up in a week or so, joy.

*And thanks to Kerenor and Commies and anyone else who helped defend Israel :)
Talk to you later, bro.

I think the jews should have jerusalem as long as the palestinians get their share of land. Jerusalem should be open for all worshippers but should be under Jewish control. As for muslims- they already have control of their first two most holy cities so they shouldn't get greedy like that and as for christians: first, christians dont have any control over the land so it will never happen and two- we really f***ed it up when we invaded jerusalem and slaughtered most of the muslim and jewish civilians

Not smart

2 They have no conventional weapons? You are really ignorant about the situation. They have small arms (rifles and such), Rockets (including RPGs, and short range surface to surface rockets used to shell settlements and Israel propper.) They also have mortars. That's just the palestinians. Other Arab nations have all sorts of conventional weapons.

Of course they have small arms, RPG-7s, mortars SA-7s and soviet era MGs, but they could not fight a conventional war because their army is too small, they have no naval or air power and very little armor. With a force like this, you have to use geurilla tactics and only fight in small skirmishes, avoiding air and armor counter attacks. And yes other arab countries do have a conventional military but the subject is on the palestinians

Of course they have small arms, RPG-7s, mortars SA-7s and soviet era MGs, but they could not fight a conventional war because their army is too small, they have no naval or air power and very little armor. With a force like this, you have to use geurilla tactics and only fight in small skirmishes, avoiding air and armor counter attacks. And yes other arab countries do have a conventional military but the subject is on the palestinians
The original poster said Arabs, not palestinians. But I did address the palestinian military forces in my response. No, they don't have a military that can defeat Israel, so then why do they attack Israeli civillians? If you are that outclassed you don't fight, you negotiate. If Israel decides to wage a war on the palestinians, and it could be argued that they'd be justified in doing so, palestinian casualties would be appalling. Terrorists are gambling with their own civilian's lives when they attack Israel.

Originally Posted by The Illuminati Council
Israel:uses MISSILES on busy streets. Oh gee, that's not gonna hurt anyone...
Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.


OK and what about when the palestinians run into a resturaunt carying a few grenades and blow themselves up to kill EVERYONE inside?

The original poster said Arabs, not palestinians. But I did address the palestinian military forces in my response. No, they don't have a military that can defeat Israel, so then why do they attack Israeli civillians? If you are that outclassed you don't fight, you negotiate. If Israel decides to wage a war on the palestinians, and it could be argued that they'd be justified in doing so, palestinian casualties would be appalling. Terrorists are gambling with their own civilian's lives when they attack Israel.

Sorry i forgot to add something- of course they wont fight a conventional war. no one will ever fight a conventional war ever again except towards the begginning of the wars to gain control of the cities, then it will always turn into a geurilla style and special forces hit and run style campaign. The days where you fight outside of a city on a large battlefield with trenches and WW1/WWII style tactics is over

Disclaimer: although I will here mainly defend Israel, my support lies with the palestinian people. Or, my support lies in neutronbombing the entire middle-east, 'cause honestly, both Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc are full of assholes. ESPECIALLY Israel and Palestine.

and in a number of wars fought off the Arabs in surrounding nations to claim almost all of what used to be Palestine (The rest became part of modern-day Jordan).

Funny thing is, the Arabs started ALL of the wars.

Zionists: People who are pro-Jewish
No.
Zionist: A person who believes that Jews should move back to the Holy Land, and expand Israel to the entire territory of Eretz Israel - the ancient kingdom. That's like, the entire Middle-East.

Palestine=Targets military personnel and reservists.

Funny thing is, ALL Israeli adult men and women are reservists. ALL of them. You know why? Because otherwise the Arabs would smash them to bits.

Indeed, you hear alot about the Israeli - Palestine wars, but there are very few threads about the Bosnia-Serbia war.

It's too fucked up to care about. I read through all existing Wikipedia information about it, and all I can say is: geeze, these people were probably better off under Tito.

Personally, I think the best thing that could happen is if they moved everybody out of Jerusalem and nuked that god forsaken crust of dirt.

Hmm. What about making Jerusalem UN territory and place the headquarters there? After all, it's probably the by far most international city around - holy to Christians, Muslims AND Jews!

Hmmm, let's bomb ourselves in a night-club, I bet they are all soldiers under cover...

Actually, they are. Reservists, all of them.

-blabla-
DAMN STRAIGHT! The nice Israelis conquered the entire Middle-East (kinda), but gave it back immediately after peace, THREE TIMES! (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, I think. Don't remember exactly.)

I think the Palestinians should try non-violent resistance. Just sit down and refuse to budge.
Well, it's worked before...

That's a great idea!

The israeli army would napalm them on the grounds one of them looked like they had a gun.

And the world would ignore it.

No they wouldn't. The entire world would be like "WOAH! They've stopped suiciding! That's just great!".


*Refrains from Flame*

You can't justify attacks on g-ddamn civilians.

What the hell is wrong with you.

He is factually right. All Israeli citizens above 16 are IDF reservists in one way or another, so, if a legitimate target means enemy soldiers, a nightclub is a legitimate target. Unless it's a nightclub with children, and then it definitely needs a bombing - you can't have children in nightclubs.

And the IDF has killed almost as many children as the terrorists groups have killed people.That's children alone.

Lies.
Yes, there has died more Palestinian children than Israeli children. Yes, there has died more Palestinians than Israelis.
But remember that Palestinians are responsible for roughly 50% of the Palestinian deaths - and I don't mean indirectly, I mean by blowing them up.

OK and what about when the palestinians run into a resturaunt carying a few grenades and blow themselves up to kill EVERYONE inside?

Reservists.

Although that's not a very good reason to kill someone.

Both parties in the conflict are being childish. This can be more effectively resolved through diplomacy.

I agree with Sanctaphrax.

By your logic, neither country should claim the land. Oh, and can I see some sources about all the Jewish 'Terrorism' when the state was formed?

Israel has fought for peace, and it is the ignorance of palestine militants that is causing this fight for peace to fail.

I'm not saying that they're not extriemists on both sides, all I want is peace in Israel so my family will be protected. At least Israel is making a decent attempt to pull out of Gaza.

This subject has been fought so many times, I don't know why I bother.

actually h e never spoke of jewish "Terrorism" though i imagine the acts he was speaking of was the colinization of palestinian territory by israelis... This was a clear violation of international law .. and im still shocked so many think they have a right to the land even though they techinically took over someone elses house (atleast the state of israels defined boarders have the backing of most of the international community). Atleast Sharon has finally got it into his head to evactuate the jewish settlements. One would think jews would be willing to give up that property if it finally meant peace for their country

The Illuminati Council
palestine = targets only military personel/reservists

.... wow is that suppose to fool someone by being diliberatly misleading or blatently untrue... now i dont know exactly who a reservist is in Israel but if not all citizens are considered one.. tell me just who exactly is the military personel in ... ohhh lets pick one of thousands... yep how bout a night club full of teenagers ? I can see how kids would be military personell right.... And if what the other fellow said is true.. that all israeli men are reservists.. dont you think your being just ALITTLE misleading.. trying to make it look like palestiniean terrorist are very nice people when they blatently target general civilians (who are all by law reservists)

I'm sure this one has been done before but I can't find them, so...

What do you think about Israel/Palestine? It's a terribly confusing place. I mean, think about it...the Israeli's say they have a right to the land because they lived there first. The Palestinians say they have a right to the land because they have lived there for thousands of years and the Israelis forced them out. Jerusalem is the most Holy city for the Jews and the 3rd most Holy for Muslims. So niether is willing to let go of it. Who do you thikn should have it?

Don't you think a city is big enough to share?

Secondly, what about Christians? I mean, when you think about it, Christians should probably be just as involved....seeing as Jesus means more to Christianity than he does to the other two (although they both see him as a Prophet, only Christianity sees him as part of God). So why don't Christians make a claim?

I'm glad they don't. A three-way squabble would be more than that poor little bit of land could take.

My own personal opinion is that Although both have a reasonable point, the Israeli's have forfeited their claim to the land by their actions. In escaping the holocaust in Europe in which Jews were one of a number of people persecuted by the Nazi's, they went to Palestine and drove out the Palestinians by first moving into Palestine (the first and second Aliyah's, as they were called) and acquiring 7% of the land. They then, through acts of blatant terrorism, caused Britain to decide to pull out, and forced the UN (Which was at this point only 2 years old) to come up with a plan for Palestine. The UN divided it up 50-50 for both, however the Zionists soon had plans to acquire the rest of Palestine, and in a number of wars fought off the Arabs in surrounding nations to claim almost all of what used to be Palestine (The rest became part of modern-day Jordan).

I hate to say this because I risk being called anti-semitic (slightly off topic, but did you know, the semites actually include both the Arabs and the Jews? so technically by saying anti-semitic, you are being biased against both), but I believe that the atrocious actions by the Jews in Palestine was not acceptable no matter what they went through in WWII, and through those actions, they have morally forfeited their claim to the land.

Hear, hear. I could not have said it better than that. Having been persecuted at one point is not a mandate to persecute everyone else.

Disclaimer: although I will here mainly defend Israel, my support lies with the palestinian people. Or, my support lies in neutronbombing the entire middle-east, 'cause honestly, both Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc are full of assholes. ESPECIALLY Israel and Palestine.I prefer to believe the majority are normal people just like everybody else, but the radical minority try to enforce his views on anybody else.



Funny thing is, the Arabs started ALL of the wars.I think we passed the kindergarden stage of "who start it" (although it isn't sure). now, the important thing is guard the ceasefire, get out from gaza strip, and start nagotitation.


No.
Zionist: A person who believes that Jews should move back to the Holy Land, and expand Israel to the entire territory of Eretz Israel - the ancient kingdom. That's like, the entire Middle-East.that is the religious zionizm. herzl zionizm was: jews has right to countrey in porpuse to be guarded from the anti-semitism. isreal is good option, since at his time most of the area was unpopulated, and most of the jew prefer to be there.
still he never claim for specific borders, he just want a countrey.


Funny thing is, ALL Israeli adult men and women are reservists. ALL of them. You know why? Because otherwise the Arabs would smash them to bits.there is maximum age to serve in the army in 45 or so. anyway I think the palastinians shouldn't harm reservists, because it is horrible thing.
anyway, I thing the reservists thing is apllied on the palastinian, too (if he is). you can't ignore the facts that palastinians from all the ages support the terror (and I didn't mean all the palastinians, or supported the the harm in civilians).


Hmm. What about making Jerusalem UN territory and place the headquarters there? After all, it's probably the by far most international city around - holy to Christians, Muslims AND Jews!no one will agree to that.






DAMN STRAIGHT! The nice Israelis conquered the entire Middle-East (kinda), but gave it back immediately after peace, THREE TIMES! (Independence War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War, I think. Don't remember exactly.)
Israel never give territories back, except the peace with egypt.


That's a great idea!the resitence can't help.
how will they resist? stay in their buildings and refuse to get gaza strip?
they should back to the nagotations. if they stop the terror they easily get almost everything (except of the refugees they want move to israel).


No they wouldn't. The entire world would be like "WOAH! They've stopped suiciding! That's just great!".
if they make that, it will be the smartest decision the palastinians ever made (and the first of them).


He is factually right. All Israeli citizens above 16 are IDF reservists in one way or another, so, if a legitimate target means enemy soldiers, a nightclub is a legitimate target. Unless it's a nightclub with children, and then it definitely needs a bombing - you can't have children in nightclubs.except the independence war with the lack of soldiers and weaponary, israel never fought with teenagers below 18.
even if harming civilians, is nothing than evil since it only increase the israeli hate to the palastinians (different than bombs in the palastinians territory, and the military base, that actually help the palastinians convince many israelis that we shouldn't stay in those areas.


Lies.
Yes, there has died more Palestinian children than Israeli children. Yes, there has died more Palestinians than Israelis.
But remember that Palestinians are responsible for roughly 50% of the Palestinian deaths - and I don't mean indirectly, I mean by blowing them up.It is hard to believe you. I think it will be closer to 10% maximum.
israel kill 3 times the amount of the israeli bodies (although some percentage is the terrorists themselves).


Reservists.

Although that's not a very good reason to kill someone.since when little babies, eldery, and women (although some women are) are reserevists.

actually h e never spoke of jewish "Terrorism" though i imagine the acts he was speaking of was the colinization of palestinian territory by israelis...
there was israeli terror before the establishment of the countrey especially by the Etzel and the lehi(right wing groups)
the palmah and the hagana were more moderate organizations. they tell the british about upcoming bombs to prevent kills, and they aim only military goals like the bridge's night (bombing all the bridges that was on the borders of israel, to prevent the britians send powers). they made some attacks on refugees camps and military base, while they trying to convince britain get out from the area.
most of the israelis were for the moderate organization and in one case (the sezon) the israeli leadership give the british the leadership of the radical organizations that believed in revenge and and great israel as the bible said.
after the countrey established and IDF created from the moderate organizations some members of the lehi and the etzel refused to join to IDF and decide to make army for themselves. they get weaponary from out the countrey, and they try to bring it all to israel on "altelena" ship. since they refused to give it to IDF, ben-gurion give order to bomb the ship and all that weponary drown.
many right-wingers still angry on the moderate leftist for the sezon and the altelena.
now israel want the palastinians do the same fought the radical terrorist and create one united army, unlike the anarchy of terror they have now.

This was a clear violation of international law .. just as the arabic attack on israel that established by the law of the UN. some how the UN think that only israel is evil, and he said that israel violate is laws more than all the dictatorships.
the UN is nothing but bunch of oil provider arab's friend. for example they let libya get member in the concul for human rights, and sirya has member in the concul of international security, or so.
luckily, we still has support from USA, so the UN is toothless.
and im still shocked so many think they have a right to the land even though they techinically took over someone elses house (atleast the state of israels defined boarders have the backing of most of the international community). not exactly. most of the area was un-populated and dry. the zionist develope whole the area, and give works and money to the few arabs that lived here. mostly we don't take arabs homes, although in the independence war, israel take over the homes of the arabs that run away willingly, to let the arabs countrey conquer the area.
Atleast Sharon has finally got it into his head to evactuate the jewish settlements. One would think jews would be willing to give up that property if it finally meant peace for their countrythe jewish willing to gave the territories for peace. the palstinian's part that tell they give us peace is the problem.
I hope abu-mazen will make something in that subject.