NationStates Jolt Archive


Tired of anti-Americanism

Marrakech II
05-03-2005, 09:19
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.
The Black Forrest
05-03-2005, 09:30
Freedom of speech also means the ability to say stupid hateful things.

It is unfortunate that she was rather rude. She was probably surprised that *shock* a Muslim would like this country. It is unfortunate that she felt she could be so rude in your house. You were within your rights to eject her. I probably would have done the same.

As for seeing it myself. It's more usually on a "debative" level then outright hatred.

Hey you have the right to spew whatever crap you want. Just don't be surprised if you get booted or get smacked.
Urantia II
05-03-2005, 09:31
I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving.

You were out of line when you "grabbed her"...

You may feel free to ask her to leave, as well as SAY anything you wish to her. But when you "grabbed her" it became an assault by YOU on her. No matter what the disagreement you should never feel free to initiate an assault on another Human being.

Again, you should feel free to express yourself in any way you see fit, especially in your own Home but that gives you no Right to assault someone who was your "guest" at one point.

Regards,
Gaar
The Alma Mater
05-03-2005, 09:34
You may feel free to ask her to leave, as well as SAY anything you wish to her. But when you "grabbed her" it became an assault by YOU on her. No matter what the disagreement you should never feel free to initiate an assault on another Human being.

Unless you repeatedly asked him/her to leave your property and they refuse IMO. Although technically one should call the police in those cases, from a practical point of view physically escorting them out without doing serious bodily harm is much better.
The Black Forrest
05-03-2005, 09:38
You were out of line when you "grabbed her"...

You may feel free to ask her to leave, as well as SAY anything you wish to her. But when you "grabbed her" it became an assault by YOU on her. No matter what the disagreement you should never feel free to initiate an assault on another Human being.

Again, you should feel free to express yourself in any way you see fit, especially in your own Home but that gives you no Right to assault someone who was your "guest" at one point.

Regards,
Gaar

Grabbing her arm is hardly assault. I am willing to bet he left out details. The fact she wouldn't leave the property and cused him out on his lawn, she probably got rude inside as well.

You can remove people from your property as long as you don't bang them up in the process.
The Black Forrest
05-03-2005, 09:40
Unless you repeatedly asked him/her to leave your property and they refuse IMO. Although technically one should call the police in those cases, from a practical point of view physically escorting them out without doing serious bodily harm is much better.

Especically when you consider the police would take time to show up due to the nature of the call.
My Romania
05-03-2005, 09:42
This is quite interesting as it involves familys split apart because of beliefs.
Sad thing. I believe u are both wrong. Both beeing manipulated but by oposite teams. I think anti-ameircanism is a form of fighting against your country by thouse that have somethin against it ( i do believe they are justified though) but i dont find it ethicaly fitted (probably misspeled alot in this post)
A guess that beeing a family should be more important than all the other beliefs.
Goodluck with that.
this is a sad story though. :(
Preebles
05-03-2005, 09:52
Grabbing her arm is hardly assault. I am willing to bet he left out details. The fact she wouldn't leave the property and cused him out on his lawn, she probably got rude inside as well.
I'm pretty sure that any non-consensual touching is classed as assault. I might be wrong though.

Whatever. :p

I think people have a right to say whatever they want to say, even if you may find it offensive. And you can give them shit for it. Of course it was just a bit off for her to offend you in your own home...
Invidentia
05-03-2005, 09:54
You were out of line when you "grabbed her"...

You may feel free to ask her to leave, as well as SAY anything you wish to her. But when you "grabbed her" it became an assault by YOU on her. No matter what the disagreement you should never feel free to initiate an assault on another Human being.

Again, you should feel free to express yourself in any way you see fit, especially in your own Home but that gives you no Right to assault someone who was your "guest" at one point.

Regards,
Gaar

This of course is entirely wrong.. She is at that point tresspassing on his property.. and could in no way be found legally liable for "Grabbing her" .. i would absent clear signs of phsycial harm he is quite safe from any assult charges... In my own home if i want someone to leave im not going to sit around and keep repeating get out of my home over and over.. or try to call the police (because they will actually take an hour to get there to have some woman removed)

Also one must realize that much of this anti-americanism anti-westernism is taught in on a daily basis in muslim schools throughout the middle east.. so it is quite unsurprising that someone who is not an american would revert to using this line of argument so quickly. The truely sad thing is (especially in the case of palestinian refugees) we often are supporting the infastructure for that edcuation system which is advocating hate. the UN program which was set up to educate palestinian refugees basically collapsed on itself when it was found out the education programs were spreading cultures of hate.

Bravo for dealing with that woman in the way you did.. I probably would have lacked the stomach to take such appropriate action (though ive never been in that situation before)
Urantia II
05-03-2005, 09:59
This of course is entirely wrong.. She is at that point tresspassing on his property.. and could in no way be found legally liable for "Grabbing her" .. i would absent clear signs of phsycial harm he is quite safe from any assult charges... In my own home if i want someone to leave im not going to sit around and keep repeating get out of my home over and over.. or try to call the police (because they will actually take an hour to get there to have some woman removed).

I guess none of you have heard of "simple assault"...

And part of the "Legalities" of her being there would include the Wifes want for her NOT to leave, would it not?

Since she WAS a Guest at one point and did NOT force her way onto your Property I believe you are not likely to convince a Judge that you HAD to use "force" to extract her from your Property...

Now I am not saying that there would be big trouble for this behavior, since simple assault is considered a misdemeanor, but it IS Legally considered assault. Ask any Lawyer...

Regards,
Gaar
Urantia II
05-03-2005, 10:02
I'm pretty sure that any non-consensual touching is classed as assault. I might be wrong though.

Whatever. :p

I think people have a right to say whatever they want to say, even if you may find it offensive. And you can give them shit for it. Of course it was just a bit off for her to offend you in your own home...

No, you are correct...

And anyone who doesn't recognize this is likely to have to find out through the Legal system, at some point.

Regards,
Gaar
New Sancrosanctia
05-03-2005, 10:05
I'm pretty sure that any non-consensual touching is classed as assault. I might be wrong though.

Whatever. :p

I think people have a right to say whatever they want to say, even if you may find it offensive. And you can give them shit for it. Of course it was just a bit off for her to offend you in your own home...
technically it's an assault. But the police do have some discretion, and would probably advise her not to press charges, as no jury would send a man to jail for that shit.
Pepe Dominguez
05-03-2005, 10:32
No, you are correct...

And anyone who doesn't recognize this is likely to have to find out through the Legal system, at some point.

Regards,
Gaar

No, he isn't correct. Non-consentual touching is battery, not assault. Assault may or may not accompany a battery.

Also, refusal to leave someone's property is tantamount to coming on uninvited. Naturally, the facts of whether or not there was a refusal to a legitimate request to leave can be litigated, but shouldn't.

People should respect the wishes of a host in any situation. I don't walk into the home of even a whacked-out Communist and correct their opinions without respect. And I certainly don't refuse to let the topic go if the host doesn't want to talk about it. I think this is standard.
Greedy Pig
05-03-2005, 12:12
People talk about Americans are all ignormaous'es. It's the same on the other side of the world as well.
Neo Cannen
05-03-2005, 13:15
The reason for anti-americanism is quite simple. The American government has not understood that contary to its close heald belief in the destiny of the world being in its hands, it does not run the world and should stop acting as if it does. Also the American ignorence of the rest of the world is quite shocking. See these studies

http://bartleby.school.aol.com/59/16/

What quite suprises me from this page is this quote

Perhaps the word Chicago, with its vowel ending, sounded vaguely un-American to the student.

America ends in a vowel! Duh!

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/358DB587-E977-4CBA-BEC9-84957169B63B.htm

http://www.amerispan.com/travel/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=140

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/200109/msg00385.html

http://www.mcgillreport.org/ignorant_america.htm
Pure Metal
05-03-2005, 13:32
a potentially unpopular idea (being devils advocate): "anti-americanism" is just the media's dirty word for skepticism, a quality americans as a whole seem to lack and despise.

obviously what that woman did in your OP was specifically anti-american ("Americans kill babies :rolleyes: ), but many other skeptical remarks i have heard, on this forum or not, have been instantly labelled as anti-american. this is a bad thing - being able to question your country, its motives, its government, its actions, is essential and consistantly labelling people who do this is almost dangerous.
Der Lieben
05-03-2005, 13:49
a potentially unpopular idea (being devils advocate): "anti-americanism" is just the media's dirty word for skepticism, a quality americans as a whole seem to lack and despise.

obviously what that woman did in your OP was specifically anti-american ("Americans kill babies :rolleyes: ), but many other skeptical remarks i have heard, on this forum or not, have been instantly labelled as anti-american. this is a bad thing - being able to question your country, its motives, its government, its actions, is essential and consistantly labelling people who do this is almost dangerous.

In Texas, you can shot someone on your property against your will. That being said, I believe that you would probably be put in jail for fiteen years the next time you run a red light. :D
Stephistan
05-03-2005, 14:04
Grabbing her arm is hardly assault. I am willing to bet he left out details. The fact she wouldn't leave the property and cused him out on his lawn, she probably got rude inside as well.

You can remove people from your property as long as you don't bang them up in the process.

It's still assault and I won't even go into the uttering of death threats. "You won't see the end of the night" I believe is also a crime. He could of called the police to remove her, legally he had to right to touch her.
Zeppistan
05-03-2005, 14:21
Congratulations Marrakech II! You have just given your written, public confession to uttering a death threat, which falls under the applicable legislation for assault and battery in your jurisdiction and is generally deemed a felony.


Can you please provide us your contact information so that we can forward it to your local police department for immediate disposition.

Thanks.
Zeppistan
05-03-2005, 14:56
Actually, all joking about the legal ramifications aside, what I find most funny about this situation is that for all your whining about how foreigners should view the US etc, you did more to reinforce this woman's steriotypical viewpoint of Americans than any al jazeera broadcast ever could.


When challenged on your viewpoint you demonostrated your propensity for responding only with uncouth and ill-mannered behaviour, and -most importantly - to resort to violence (both real and implied) as your immediate reaction. In other words, you completely lost your side of the argument by your own actions.


I think it is fair to say that the diplomatic corps should not be a career path that you should consider....
Jeruselem
05-03-2005, 15:17
I hope Australians do not get painted into the same category the Americans seem to get themselves into. The actions of the current government are like puppet state of the US and the current Australian government is acting like the Bush administration. Australians are not Americans and vice versa.
Meganerica
05-03-2005, 15:32
Look guys. What most "anti-American" Americans and others don't realize/want to understand that EVERY nation has its problems, its history of violence, its ignorant people. Every nation also has its geniuses, its triumphs. America is easy to pick on now because we're so large and involved in world affairs. But it was Great Britain 100 years ago, and it will be someone different in another 100 years. Instead of ranting about America, (this is directed to foreigners) why not try to improve your own country? Lord knows plenty of us Americans are trying to do the same to our country. The person who tells me that their country has no problems is flat out wrong.
Damascue
05-03-2005, 15:41
The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it.

I, too, find it more offensive. I am a university student, and many of my friends are from other countries (Haiti, Nigeria, France) because I live in a dorm where there is an International Living/Learning community. It frustrates me to hear them complain, because sometimes it seems hypocritical. Yes, we have our problems as a nation. Every nation does. But if they find it to be such a terrible country, why are they traveling over oceans to get their education?
Jeruselem
05-03-2005, 15:49
Look guys. What most "anti-American" Americans and others don't realize/want to understand that EVERY nation has its problems, its history of violence, its ignorant people. Every nation also has its geniuses, its triumphs. America is easy to pick on now because we're so large and involved in world affairs. But it was Great Britain 100 years ago, and it will be someone different in another 100 years. Instead of ranting about America, (this is directed to foreigners) why not try to improve your own country? Lord knows plenty of us Americans are trying to do the same to our country. The person who tells me that their country has no problems is flat out wrong.

Then please tell your government to stop sticking it's nose in the business of other nations as if they know what's good for them.
Damascue
05-03-2005, 15:53
Then please tell your government to stop sticking it's nose in the business of other nations as if they know what's good for them.

You act as though we, as Americans, are directly responsible for the fact that it happens.

I'm sorry, but I canvassed for 6 straight weekends for the past election. I worked on my campus and off to spread the knowledge of the issues. I have lobbyed at Capitol Hill on three occasions in my life, and I plan on doing it a lot more through the next four years. I voted. But there is a limit as to the amount of control a person has in a government - ANY government.
Dontgonearthere
05-03-2005, 16:06
I said it before, and Ill say it in this thread as well.
And I quote:
"What this country needs is fewer people telling us what this country needs."
That includes you non-USians, to summarize what Meganerica said:
Get out of our countries buisness and worry about your own.

For those who say 'But the US is a big interfering meany-pants!', big whup. The great thing about being a Republic is that every four years (or eight) there is a full policy change, and as long as Hillary Clinton doesnt get into office, things should be good.

Also, I find Jeruselem's comment rather amusing considering his name.
Eurotrash Smokey
05-03-2005, 16:20
We'll worry about our own countries. But next time you invade someone and things aren't going as planned, after ignoring some of your allies, don't come whining about us not helping you out.
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2005, 16:23
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.
Several questions come to mind after reading your post.

1. Considering that both of you were half right, was there no way that you could have continued to have a rational discussion to have a better understanding of the matter?

2. There appears to be a bit of intolerance on both sides. When confronted with a discussion that appears to go against your beliefs do you feel the need to shout down the opposition?

3. Since America is based on the "freedom of speech" principle, do you think that it is appropriate to tell people what to watch?

4. If presented with a discussion that might cause you anger, would it not be better to state that you would rather not discuss the issue?

5. How often do you find yourself going from intolerance, to anger, to hate?

6. Do you think you could have handled the discussion in a better manner?
Gawdly
05-03-2005, 16:25
/me likes Yankees.
E Blackadder
05-03-2005, 16:26
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.


i see that kind of stuff in england to...i was talking to my freind who is a muslim and then all of a sudden his neighbor (also muslim) starts raving at us about how the western world will fall..so we left him to it... :confused:
Drunk commies
05-03-2005, 16:28
Freedom of speech is an interesting thing. It protects racists, but it protects those who speak out against them too. Gives us a battlefield of ideas to fight our civil wars on. Hell, if you're yelling at each other at least you're not shooting at each other.
Drunk commies
05-03-2005, 16:29
It's still assault and I won't even go into the uttering of death threats. "You won't see the end of the night" I believe is also a crime. He could of called the police to remove her, legally he had to right to touch her.
Grabbing a person's arm and escorting him/her off of your property is absolutely not assault. If it was, bouncers in every bar and club accross the country would be in prison.
Drunk commies
05-03-2005, 16:30
Congratulations Marrakech II! You have just given your written, public confession to uttering a death threat, which falls under the applicable legislation for assault and battery in your jurisdiction and is generally deemed a felony.


Can you please provide us your contact information so that we can forward it to your local police department for immediate disposition.

Thanks.
Leave the guy alone. He said something stupid when he was angry. We all do stuff like that. No real harm was done.
Volvo Villa Vovve
05-03-2005, 16:33
Well a problem with some americans is that they are so loyal to the goverment, especially then foriegners or even american that are outside USA critize the goverment, they perceive it as a personal insult towards them.

While I think many Europeans dislike the USA goverment and the politics, they can still see the diffrence between americans in generall and the USA goverment and think that most americans are ok.

But of course it could be a good idea to try to be polite then you visit another country and stay away from controversial issues before you get to learn eatcheter.

Like your example showed how it can go if you don't think of that. She will know perceive you as a typical rude American that always think he is right and you will perceive her as a leftist foreigner that hates America. Even if you probably could have gone along fine and even became friend, if you had learned eatcheter under other forms.
Jeruselem
05-03-2005, 16:38
I said it before, and Ill say it in this thread as well.
And I quote:
"What this country needs is fewer people telling us what this country needs."
That includes you non-USians, to summarize what Meganerica said:
Get out of our countries buisness and worry about your own.

For those who say 'But the US is a big interfering meany-pants!', big whup. The great thing about being a Republic is that every four years (or eight) there is a full policy change, and as long as Hillary Clinton doesnt get into office, things should be good.

Also, I find Jeruselem's comment rather amusing considering his name.

The problem is the US government is deaf and blind to it's actions which hurt other nations. All nations are like that, but pretending to be be beacon of democracy is hypocracy.
Dontgonearthere
05-03-2005, 16:49
The problem is the US government is deaf and blind to it's actions which hurt other nations. All nations are like that, but pretending to be be beacon of democracy is hypocracy.
No, were just arrogant and overbearing. IE: We dont care what other nations think unless they are important. This is a policy we learned from Great Britian back in the 18th century.
Indeed, all nations are like that, and they are all hypocrits. It pleases us to at least think of ourselves as the 'good hypocrits'.
Eutrusca
05-03-2005, 16:55
You were out of line when you "grabbed her"...

You may feel free to ask her to leave, as well as SAY anything you wish to her. But when you "grabbed her" it became an assault by YOU on her. No matter what the disagreement you should never feel free to initiate an assault on another Human being.

Again, you should feel free to express yourself in any way you see fit, especially in your own Home but that gives you no Right to assault someone who was your "guest" at one point.

Regards,
Gaar
Actually, it was a "technical battery," which is any unauthorized touching. The woman could have filed charges for battery, but the chances of his ever being either charged or convicted are slim.
Domici
05-03-2005, 18:05
a potentially unpopular idea (being devils advocate): "anti-americanism" is just the media's dirty word for skepticism, a quality americans as a whole seem to lack and despise.

obviously what that woman did in your OP was specifically anti-american ("Americans kill babies :rolleyes: ), but many other skeptical remarks i have heard, on this forum or not, have been instantly labelled as anti-american. this is a bad thing - being able to question your country, its motives, its government, its actions, is essential and consistantly labelling people who do this is almost dangerous.

Sounds more like a certain amount of naivete on her part. American's do kill babies. Not in the rape, pillage, and plunder sense, but if you bomb an entire city, there's going to be collateral damage. Statistically some of it will be babies. The idea that terrorists don't kill babies was pretty silly. Terrorists attack installations of symbolic value. These usually have civilians in them, and thus, the occaisional baby.

As far as I know the terrorists have not, thus far, killed any babies in their snuff films. Babies have no symbolic value.
Rotovia
05-03-2005, 18:09
There are two major cause for Anti-Americanism

Cause One: Bush
Cause TwoL Support of Bush

I may be exaggerating, but America was reasonably popular under Clinton.
Domici
05-03-2005, 18:11
Well a problem with some americans is that they are so loyal to the goverment, especially then foriegners or even american that are outside USA critize the goverment, they perceive it as a personal insult towards them.

While I think many Europeans dislike the USA goverment and the politics, they can still see the diffrence between americans in generall and the USA goverment and think that most americans are ok.

But of course it could be a good idea to try to be polite then you visit another country and stay away from controversial issues before you get to learn eachother.

Like your example showed how it can go if you don't think of that. She will know perceive you as a typical rude American that always think he is right and you will perceive her as a leftist foreigner that hates America. Even if you probably could have gone along fine and even became friend, if you had learned eatcheter under other forms.

As I understand it, most Middle Eastern cultures place much more importance on being a good host rather than a good guest. Of course the bar is set pretty high for inviting people into your home.

Most other cultures are surprised by the relaxed attitude that Americans and Europeans have towards people being invited into the house, and often any part of the house. Inviting someone in is seen as a demonstration of a certain amount of closeness.

To then kick someone out of your house because you don't like their politics would seem, from that standpoint, to be not just rude, but a betrayal. Further evidence of the ignorant, uncultured American.
Libertasmania
05-03-2005, 18:14
This did actually happened to me.
<snip>
So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.


This happened to you in your own home? You showed more restraint to her than I would have. Being a guest in your home has a certain amount of responsibility. YOU can say whatever you wish to in your own home and the guests are more than welcome to leave, but your guest stomped soundly on all concepts of manners, no matter what the issue. You were in the right.
Libertasmania
05-03-2005, 18:18
And anyone who doesn't recognize this is likely to have to find out through the Legal system, at some point.

I wonder soemtimes at our unwillingness to do what is right in the face of legal repercussions...
United East Asia
05-03-2005, 18:21
If anyone would touch me without my permission he'd violate my personal space, that would result in well... it'd be a reflex but I don't think anyone's teeth would like it. You just don't do it, and if you do it, don't be surprised about the consequences from it.

As for the Americans... *yawns at them* They're entertaining at times, but usually either dumb or just boring. Personally I think the anti-americanism is nothing else than a reply to the american propaganda, brainwashing and typical arrogance. After having to hear for the 1,000th time how great and good they are I only say "oh go to hell". And if an american tells me that I owe him my freedom, then I call him a stupid arse yank who either needs a life or a bullet in the skull (been there, done that).
Urantia II
05-03-2005, 18:22
Also, refusal to leave someone's property is tantamount to coming on uninvited. Naturally, the facts of whether or not there was a refusal to a legitimate request to leave can be litigated, but shouldn't.

People should respect the wishes of a host in any situation. I don't walk into the home of even a whacked-out Communist and correct their opinions without respect. And I certainly don't refuse to let the topic go if the host doesn't want to talk about it. I think this is standard.

But the "Hosts" in this particular situation were "split" on what they wanted done, were they not?

Are you trying to suggest that the man can "dictate" what his wishes are and that is that?!?!

I also agree with the Battery versus assault, but it is still a "crime" either way, is it not?

Regards,
Gaar
Aeruillin
05-03-2005, 18:23
Remind me not to debate with you, Marrakech. If your response to what is at best a flawed, not a fallacious argument, is violence, then why not just move to a small little hut in the mountains far away from anyone who might disagree?
Urantia II
05-03-2005, 18:25
In Texas, you can shot someone on your property against your will. That being said, I believe that you would probably be put in jail for fiteen years the next time you run a red light. :D

Does that apply to someone who was invited on and then you changed your mind? That can be an awfully sick way of "doing away with" your enemies, if it is the case...

Somehow, I just don't think a Court of Law would side with you on this one.

Regards,
Gaar
Freedomfrize
05-03-2005, 18:27
People talk about Americans are all ignormaous'es.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


(this one is superb)
CanuckHeaven
05-03-2005, 21:16
But the "Hosts" in this particular situation were "split" on what they wanted done, were they not?

Are you trying to suggest that the man can "dictate" what his wishes are and that is that?!?!

I also agree with the Battery versus assault, but it is still a "crime" either way, is it not?

Regards,
Gaar
After referring the matter to my Encarta dictionary, it would appear that Marrakech II committed assault AND battery:

assault:

LAW: attack or fear of bodily harm: an unlawful threat of bodily violence or harm to somebody else, or an attempt to do such violence or harm

"So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night."

battery:

LAW: unlawful use of force on somebody: the unlawful use of any physical force on another person, including beating or offensive touching without the person’s consent

"I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door."

Before it got to this point, Marrakech II had several options, far better than the final outcome?

1. Quit the conversation.
2. Ask the person why they felt the way they do in order to gain a better understanding of the person and open the door to a more civilized discussion.
3. Ask the person to leave in a non threatening way and without using force.

While reading the story, I was intrigued by this comment:

"They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped."

What importance does a person's political leaning have to do with his story?
OceanDrive
06-03-2005, 00:26
If anyone would touch me without my permission he'd violate my personal space, that would result in well... it'd be a reflex but I don't think anyone's teeth would like it. You just don't do it, and if you do it, don't be surprised about the consequences from it.Thats why...when I "Grabb around" ...I grabb Women(they cant figth back).

I grabb my wife when she talks Against Bush,, I grabb her when She invites some other muslim women, I grabb her whenever she does not agree with me, I grabb her whenever she does not want to have sex with me...I grabb the shit out of her :D

My proBush friends can Talk agasinst Arabs all they want in her face...But the minute her friends dare to speak against Bush I Grabb them out, sometimes I smack them against the door if they resist.

Whenever the Police comes I Pull the Property Papers.. I am the owner of the House, and not my wife, so I get to choose who can come ...and in this case who and when they have to leave.(my wife opinion does not count)
Middlesea Terra
06-03-2005, 00:32
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.

You seem pretty fucked up if that was the way you treath you wifes friends no matter what they say :confused:
Middlesea Terra
06-03-2005, 00:34
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.

You seem pretty fucked up if that was the way you treath you wifes friends no matter what they say :confused:
Middlesea Terra
06-03-2005, 00:34
This did actually happened to me. Now some may know that I am an American Muslim. My wife is from Morocco. We entertain friends out our business and home all the time. These people range from all ranges of life. Her friends naturally are normally foreign Muslims. Mine are mostly Americans that are not muslim. Well her friends come over all the time. One of her Moroccan friends that I havent spoke to that much was over. Now the story of terrorist comes on from Iraq. They spoke about the Italian leftist getting kidnapped. She says in a suprised tone. Why are they kidnapping women? I told her its the same reason terrorist kill innocent children and women. She turns to me in my own home and says this. Americans kill children Iraqis dont! So I got real mad. Told her that she shouldnt be watching al jezeera to much. She went on about CNN. Which I dont watch anyway. I told her that she didnt want to go there. So she starts in on me about America. So this is what I did. I grabbed her by the arm and escorted her out my front door. This of course starts a problem with my wife. All the while I am taking her to the door. She says she isnt leaving. As this women is on my front lawn. She is cursing me in Arabic (which I speak also) and tells me that America will be defeated. I am outraged and really mad at this point. So I tell her that if she didnt get out of my yard she wasnt going to see the end of the night. Now mind you I wouldnt have hurt this women. Nor did I hurt her taking her to the door. Just was very outraged.

The problem though is this. Why is it that foreigners think they can come to America and spout anti-Americanism? This I find more offensive then Americans doing it. I have also had an incident where an Palestinian kid told my son that if he didnt speak Arabic that God wouldnt love him. Another incident where I heard this time. Was a young child of two Arabic parents telling another that Americans were not as good as Arabs. These both occured during Ramadan this past year. Now obviously these kids are learning this at home. I did aproach on father of the child. He claims that he didnt know where his son learned such a thing. Was he lying? probably was for all I know. I dont obviously paint the whole Muslim community with this same brush. I know alot of them and they are great people. There are a few bad apples to say the least though.
What I would like to know is how many Americans have witnessed such a thing. Either something done or said to you. Maybe a story you heard from a friend. I just want to know how widespread this problem may be.

You seem pretty fucked up if that was the way you treath you wifes friends no matter what they say :confused:
Volvo Villa Vovve
06-03-2005, 02:17
As I understand it, most Middle Eastern cultures place much more importance on being a good host rather than a good guest. Of course the bar is set pretty high for inviting people into your home.

Most other cultures are surprised by the relaxed attitude that Americans and Europeans have towards people being invited into the house, and often any part of the house. Inviting someone in is seen as a demonstration of a certain amount of closeness.

To then kick someone out of your house because you don't like their politics would seem, from that standpoint, to be not just rude, but a betrayal. Further evidence of the ignorant, uncultured American.

Yep just as I sad cultural diffrence, some americans should be aware that foreigns can speak openly about american goverment and politics, without hating america and americans or them personally. And with todays USA foreign should maybee not dicuss america politics with americans especially if they are negative to it, the first thing they do, because even if they can get a kiss on the cheeck they can get also get a hit on the head, even if I think most Americans is somethere between.


But personally as a swed, I think it's must better that if you have a guest you perceive as rude, you just ask them to leave or just let them stay but don't invite them back if you can't work it out. I also think, just physically through them out with no explanation is a bad idea, if they don't done anything really stupid like piss on your plants or trash your tv.
Urantia II
06-03-2005, 02:36
Whenever the Police comes I Pull the Property Papers.. I am the owner of the House, and not my wife, so I get to choose who can come ...and in this case who and when they have to leave.(my wife opinion does not count)

If it is her Primary Residence she has Rights to use the Property that you cannot take from her, no matter who "owns" the Property...

Obviously you haven't tried this in the "Real World" yet, otherwise you would know how wrong you are on this point.

Funny how some people think they can deny others their "Constitutional Rights" depending on where they may be standing at any given moment.

Regards,
Gaar