NationStates Jolt Archive

you know this just isn't the right country for you when.... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050304/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050304195046)

BAGHDAD, Iraq - U.S.-led coalition forces fired on a car carrying a freed Italian hostage as it approached a checkpoint in Baghdad Friday, wounding the former captive and killing another person in her car, a U.S. military spokesman said.


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, an ally of the United States who has kept troops in Iraq (news - web sites) despite public opposition at home, said an Italian intelligence officer was killed. He asked the U.S. ambassador for an explanation of the shooting.

Ooops. Might be worth hearing more about what happened.

mistakes suck, no?

Typical American. Shoot all that moves for kicks.

The enemy of my enemy is.. trigger happy

This is why you drive SLOWLY near any checkpoints.

"At approximately 8:55 p.m. tonight, coalition forces assigned to the multinational force Iraq fired on a vehicle that was approaching a coalition checkpoint in Baghdad at a high rate of speed,"

Slowly. Not FAST.

you know this just isn't the right country for you when.... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050304/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050304195046)

Why is it that you are constantly posting things that make the US look bad? Do you have some sort of US fixation? Do you not think that bad shit happens in a war zone? Perhaps you think the military operates in some sort of antiseptic environment where friends and foes are clearly defined and no one is trying to hide/cameoflauge themselves from their enemies?

Do you make some sort of living by harping on the things the US does poorly? Don't you consider the things the US does well?

I have seen you make some reasonable arguments sometimes, but you seem to be able to see one side of the issue. Clearly you are intelligent, but your focus seems extremely imbalanced.

Just curious, doesnt really matter because I have already written you off as one of "those" people.

Why is it that you are constantly posting things that make the US look bad?

Sorry if the truth hurts. Perhaps America should stop doing things that make them look bad? Don't shoot the messenger.

In fact, more Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan by Americans than by the enemy.

Perhaps get a safety on those trigger happy soldiers. Yeah?

This is why you drive SLOWLY near any checkpoints.



Slowly. Not FAST.
You can apply condescending tones when they start using arbitrary numbers, not subjective terms

You can apply condescending tones when they start using arbitrary numbers, not subjective terms
I somehow doubt there was a radar gun present. You know, just a small inkling that they didn't have one.

I somehow doubt there was a radar gun present. You know, just a small inkling that they didn't have one.
Irrelevant, "high rate of speed" could be anything above like 15mph. And there is the fact it was dark, that will screw up the perception of speed because of headlights

Sorry if the truth hurts. Perhaps America should stop doing things that make them look bad? Don't shoot the messenger.

In fact, more Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan by Americans than by the enemy.

Perhaps get a safety on those trigger happy soldiers. Yeah?

Oh yes, and you are the rabid attack ... of Zeppistan. The truth doesnt hurt, friendly fire is simply a function of the reality of things in a difficult situation. Surely you are not so ignorant to believe this is the only case of friendly fire? Friendly fire(and this event doesnt even rise to that definition) has been a part of all wars fought by ALL countries. There does not exist a modern war where soldiers weren't killed by their own forces by mistake. What one needs to consider is the number/percentage of these deaths. If you bother to check, friendly fire is down significantly in the US since Vietnam(where it was rampant)

Yet, you persist in insinuating that something like this is unique or even relevant. When I say friendly fire BTW, I am refering to soldiers in uniform being shot by other soldiers in the same uniform/team by mistake.
This story doesnt even rise to that occasion. Lets see, a speeding car appraoching a checkpoint in a war zone. Perhaps they should have slowed down, maybe they would be alive then.

You are either ignorant of how wars and occupations and liberations have been conducted by ALL countries throughout history, or you are willfully disregarding this in order to serve your aim of bashing the US.

Given the nature of the posts from you that I have seen in other threads, I have already formed my opinion on both your knowledge, your intelligence and your biases.

What I dont understand is Zeppistan's view because he appears to be somewhat objective despite his biases.

Surely you are not so ignorant to believe this is the only case of friendly fire?

No, I'm sure the outright bombing of the Chinese embassy was a complete accident in Bosnia.. :rolleyes:

I have a cure for friendly fire in iraq. Get out of iraq.

No, I'm sure the outright bombing of the Chinese embassy was a complete accident in Bosnia.. :rolleyes:

Its your selective quoting that makes me think of you as the rabid attack .... of Zeppistan.

Do you think responses like this engender people to increase their respect for you? I am relatively new here, so I am just curious?

Maybe the "children" here will rally towards your invective but I doubt adults will. Keep at it though, more power to you

Its your selective quoting that makes me think of you as the rabid attack .... of Zeppistan.

Do you think responses like this engender people to increase their respect for you? I am relatively new here, so I am just curious?

Maybe the "children" here will rally towards your invective but I doubt adults will. Keep at it though, more power to you
Steph and Zepp are married, both adults, and have their own children.

Frankly it's not worth bothering with them, as their hatred of America is so deeply rooted in something, that it's unlike to change. Just nod your head and move along.

Oh yes, and you are the rabid attack ... of Zeppistan. The truth doesnt hurt, friendly fire is simply a function of the reality of things in a difficult situation. Surely you are not so ignorant to believe this is the only case of friendly fire? Friendly fire(and this event doesnt even rise to that definition) has been a part of all wars fought by ALL countries. There does not exist a modern war where soldiers weren't killed by their own forces by mistake. What one needs to consider is the number/percentage of these deaths. If you bother to check, friendly fire is down significantly in the US since Vietnam(where it was rampant)

Yet, you persist in insinuating that something like this is unique or even relevant. When I say friendly fire BTW, I am refering to soldiers in uniform being shot by other soldiers in the same uniform/team by mistake.
This story doesnt even rise to that occasion. Lets see, a speeding car appraoching a checkpoint in a war zone. Perhaps they should have slowed down, maybe they would be alive then.

You are either ignorant of how wars and occupations and liberations have been conducted by ALL countries throughout history, or you are willfully disregarding this in order to serve your aim of bashing the US.

Given the nature of the posts from you that I have seen in other threads, I have already formed my opinion on both your knowledge, your intelligence and your biases.

What I dont understand is Zeppistan's view because he appears to be somewhat objective despite his biases.


I have to totally agree.

Besides, how stupid can you be to drive at high speeds towards a checkpoint and not stop?

I love a flock of ostriches with their heads in the sand.

makes me want to sing a national anthem or something.

This is why you drive SLOWLY near any checkpoints.



Slowly. Not FAST.

LMAO. Have you seen how Italians drive?

Why is it that you are constantly posting things that make the US look bad? Do you have some sort of US fixation? Do you not think that bad shit happens in a war zone? Perhaps you think the military operates in some sort of antiseptic environment where friends and foes are clearly defined and no one is trying to hide/cameoflauge themselves from their enemies?

Do you make some sort of living by harping on the things the US does poorly? Don't you consider the things the US does well?

I have seen you make some reasonable arguments sometimes, but you seem to be able to see one side of the issue. Clearly you are intelligent, but your focus seems extremely imbalanced.

Just curious, doesnt really matter because I have already written you off as one of "those" people.

Dont waste your breath-you're better off banging your head on the wall. Everyone is so content to hold their hand out to US cash and assistance-hell-they even have the nerve to judge wether the amount is appropriate. All the while, stabbing us in the back at any chance they get.

The italian hostage is a journalist from Il Manifesto...

Could be a Rosenberg remember? Kill the commie :(

I hope that Berlusconi can take some action about the entire thing and not be the usual Bush's pet

All I know is I watch myself when I aproach anyone who is armed. If I were driving by a checkpoint i'd be going like 5 miles an hour waving a white flag shouting WE'RE GOOD! WE'RE GOOD!! But in war mistakes are made and that whole thing of bombing a chinese embassy could be a mistake. War is hell and anybody who wants to think its nice and tidy and clean needs to learn more and understand that crap happens and that people WILL die...innocent or not.

Dont waste your breath-you're better off banging your head on the wall. Everyone is so content to hold their hand out to US cash and assistance-hell-they even have the nerve to judge wether the amount is appropriate. All the while, stabbing us in the back at any chance they get.
And what about the american hand that reaches out and pillages these nations?

Who stops that greedy hand?

anecdotal day for sis and I with our friends in Italy.. summer of 2000:

Me: Rachel, what time did they say we were leaving to catch the train to Florence?

Sister (Rachel): 9 o'clock.

Me: Well it's 8, so i'm gonna start getting ready.

fast-forward to 8:30

Me: Giulio, hey, we're all ready to go.

Giulio: Okay, are you fine? We leave soon.

fast-forward to 8:45

Sis and I are sure we're going to miss the train. we're just sitting there waiting for everyone else to get ready...

fast-forward to 8:55

Giulio: Okay, we go!



So we all get in his Citroen and he goes SIXTY (MPH) through town to get to the train station... we get there right at 9:00.

Of course everything in Italy runs late, so we're more or less right on time, with plenty of time to sit down and get settled. that train didn't leave until about 9:15.

LMAO. Have you seen how Italians drive?
Heh, not quite as crazy as the koreans, but still pretty damn scary.

All I know is I watch myself when I aproach anyone who is armed. If I were driving by a checkpoint i'd be going like 5 miles an hour waving a white flag shouting WE'RE GOOD! WE'RE GOOD!! But in war mistakes are made and that whole thing of bombing a chinese embassy could be a mistake. War is hell and anybody who wants to think its nice and tidy and clean needs to learn more and understand that crap happens and that people WILL die...innocent or not.
They'd take that as too obvious and throw a grenade at you, or claim the white flag and yelling was gunfire.

As Aelov said, mistakes happen. It more than likely wasn't intentional. Our troops are people, too, meaning that despite all their training, they can still make mistakes. Whether or not they admit it is what truly makes their character.

And I reiterate what other people have said yet again: the problem with war is that there are a lot of people involved in it, and some of those people are not warriors. The car was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.

In closing, I offer these words of wisdom: LET IT GO.

And what about the american hand that reaches out and pillages these nations?

Who stops that greedy hand?

What pillaging? Are you stoned? We dont take anything from anyone-we pay dearly for everything we get. You're thinking of Britan-maybe hundreds of years ago.
The worst part is, we have all the natural resources for everything we need here.

They'd take that as too obvious and throw a grenade at you, or claim the white flag and yelling was gunfire.

I'll be damned...someone more cynical and stubborn than I am.

there are no US soldiers over there getting "kicks" out of shooting anyone- innocent bystanders or enemy combatants. They are trying to do their duty and get home alive. Most of them are still kids, as in any army. If you think any differently, you're a sad, silly sack of self-loathing elitist crap.

And what about the american hand that reaches out and pillages these nations?

Who stops that greedy hand?

2 possibile responces

A. The one you want me to give you so you can flame:
"You are too scared and greedy to. The nations that complain but don't/ are afraid to act are the ones getting hand-outs."

B. The one that you don't like because it is true:
"You guys are so hipocritical. You accept our help (WWII, WWI etc) then crticise us when we are following your orders."
_________Spelling off above

So piss off and take your underserved handouts
I await your tipical flaming

No, I'm sure the outright bombing of the Chinese embassy was a complete accident in Bosnia.. :rolleyes:

It happened in Serbia god damnet, are you high on drugs or something :gundge:

there are no US soldiers over there getting "kicks" out of shooting anyone- innocent bystanders or enemy combatants. They are trying to do their duty and get home alive. Most of them are still kids, as in any army. If you think any differently, you're a sad, silly sack of self-loathing elitist crap.

And to that I say amen.

I may have a slight bias toward the military...a friend of mine was over in Iraq with his Reserve unit for a while...but that doesn't mean I can't see the forest for the trees.

But anyway, the americans are crazy mother fuckers they shot at anything, their favorite are women and children. Becouse they dont shot back...

What pillaging? Are you stoned? We dont take anything from anyone-we pay dearly for everything we get. You're thinking of Britan-maybe hundreds of years ago.

I'm thinking about agricultural trade laws, political panderings, behind the curtain deals, wall street practices, scientific extortions in the name of "national security", secret wars, political assasinations and the general attack mode America has been on for the last 50 years.

The worst part is, we have all the natural resources for everything we need here.

sure you do, GI Joe.... that's why you're not in the richest oil field on this earth right now... :rolleyes:

How's the uranium and iron ore business in the states going? What about copper?

Kids.... :rolleyes:

Its your selective quoting that makes me think of you as the rabid attack .... of Zeppistan.

Do you think responses like this engender people to increase their respect for you? I am relatively new here, so I am just curious?

Maybe the "children" here will rally towards your invective but I doubt adults will. Keep at it though, more power to you

WHO are YOU again?

2 possibile responces

A. The one you want me to give you so you can flame:
"You are too scared and greedy to. The nations that complain but don't/ are afraid to act are the ones getting hand-outs."

B. The one that you don't like because it is true:
"You guys are so hipocritical. You accept our help (WWII, WWI etc) then crticise us when we are following your orders."
_________Spelling off above

So piss off and take your underserved handouts
I await your tipical flaming

I'll just sit back and wait for you to make a rational well thought out point...

good luck

It happened in Serbia god damnet, are you high on drugs or something :gundge:

Hehe, my mistake :)

The idea that mistakes will happen is always applied selectively. If you support the person who made the mistake, it was just a mistake, if you are against them, it was somehow intentional or a result of their evilness and stupidity.
This applies to myself as well. I support US actions in Iraq and so I look upon this event as a tragic mistake. I Hate Cows and Steph and Zepp are against US action in Iraq and so they they don't except the "mistake" rational or claim the mistake is somehow unique to USians.
I feel very badly for the families of the Italians killed and also for the young men who accidently killed them. Those guys will live with this the rest of their lives and anyone who thinks this will not haunt them is a fool. The families will recieve an apology and perhaps money (as if money will heal the pain) but they will also have to live with this the rest of their lives.
This will do a lot of damage to the US/Italian relationship. It is a terrible tragedy.

But anyway, the americans are crazy mother fuckers they shot at anything, their favorite are women and children. Becouse they dont shot back...

Thank you for that complete and utter lack of insight. As a counterexample to your claims that Americans are trigger-happy, allow me to inform you that stereotypes and bad spelling/grammar will get you nowhere.

In fact, more Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan by Americans than by the enemy.


Yeah, 4. In one incident. Imbecile.

Stephistan/Pepe - You do realize that could have been an accident, don't you?

The world isn't a Walgreens commercial...nothing goes perfectly. Things happen. It's how you deal with them that makes you who you are, and in case of accidents, I tend to prefer forgiveness myself.

Thank you for that complete and utter lack of insight. An a counterexample to your claims that Americans are trigger-happy, allow me to inform you that stereotypes and bad spelling/grammar will get you nowhere.

I dont have english as my native language, so fuck you, you anglo shit dont speak anything but english, i at least write some english... :headbang:
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

Steph and Zepp are married, both adults, and have their own children.

Frankly it's not worth bothering with them, as their hatred of America is so deeply rooted in something, that it's unlike to change. Just nod your head and move along.

Uh okay Berserker, because you of course are the impiety of objectivity. Yes? We couldn't possibly be right. or even close.. spare me. :rolleyes:

If you ever get the chance to know half o what Zeppistan knows, get back to me.. ;)

It must be rationally thought through here. The car was driving at a US checkpoint on a highway well known for insurgent attacks...at night...at a high speed, did not stop when signalled via lights, hand gestures, or warning shots.

The fact of the matter is that despite what Zep and Steph may condescendingly claim about American trigger happy soldiers, the fact is, no sane commander would not have his men fire in this circumstance, when it is quite common for suicide car-bombers to attack checkpoints, in much the same fashion. Note, a suicide car-bomber killed nearly a dozen Iraqi soldiers yesterday, probably by driving at a high speed and not stopping. It was a tragic mistake, but I am not going to blame that checkpoint unit for indeed taking action against every indication of being under attack.

I dont have english as my native language, so fuck you, you anglo shit dont speak anything but english, i at least write some english... :headbang:
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5:

It seems to me you're just as violent as you allege Americans to be.

I honestly didn't know English wasn't your native language...so sue me. Wait, no, bad idea...I almost forgot for a second that I'm against frivolous lawsuits.

Maybe this was not an accident maybe they did it on deliberetly, maybe she knew to much? :confused:

Stephistan/Pepe - You do realize that could have been an accident, don't you?

The world isn't a Walgreens commercial...nothing goes perfectly. Things happen. It's how you deal with them that makes you who you are, and in case of accidents, I tend to prefer forgiveness myself.


It almost certainly was an accident. That's the thing. Some pilot, high on amphetamines and low on sleep, bombs a live-fire exercise in a war zone and kills the wrong people. I never assumed it was malicious.. I'll leave that up to Canadians.

To say that we killed more Canadians than Al-Queda or the Taliban in Afghanistan is an insult to the U.S. military if you don't know the facts.. but if you have the facts, it's an insult to Canada. Think about it.

Maybe this was not an accident maybe they did it on deliberetly, maybe she knew to much? :confused:

We'll never know, so I say assume it's an accident, forgive, and move on.

Maybe this was not an accident maybe they did it on deliberetly, maybe she knew to much? :confused:

You think a couple checkpoint soldiers know the identity of the passengers of any of the cars that approach, unless it's a convoy, beforehand?

Sure, the woman injured was from a leftist magazine, but so are 99% of European journalists in Iraq, and we don't kill them all.

Zeppistan has won in an actually fair contest that didn't include blind voting, nor has he ever been warned for flaming or flamebait as the best debater on this site. Perhaps many newbie's don't remember him, or have not had a chance to know him. He is a centrist who calls them as he sees them, he has many time praised the US Supreme Court for wise decisions. So the whole American bashing falls short of valid or truthful.

Sorry tojump in here, but I have to add to those that believe that America isn't trigger happy, In the Gulf War (1) England lost more troops to their american "allies" than to the people they were fighting.

go figure.

I can't stay here to argue all day, especially since I don't enjoy trying to bring reason into reasonless debate...

Sorry tojump in here, but I have to add to those that believe that America isn't trigger happy, In the Gulf War (1) England lost more troops to their american "allies" than to the people they were fighting.

go figure.

Do I really have to play the "Do you really think it wasn't an accident" card again?

I REALLY don't have time for this...

You think a couple checkpoint soldiers know the identity of the passengers of any of the cars that approach, unless it's a convoy, beforehand?

Sure, the woman injured was from a leftist magazine, but so are 99% of European journalists in Iraq, and we don't kill them all.

In your eyes anything not consaervative or nazi is leftist :mp5:

I've built up a nice collection of pilfered video footage of troops performing their duties in Iraq...


Let me say this, I've never seen so many outright executions of insurgents with accompanying chest beatings and "haha, he's dead now" type comments.

My fav is one with an Iraqi, riddled with bullet holes, half a k away, writhing in pain... and some dumb meathead finishing the job then bragging on helmet cam....

Plus I have a number of relatives and friends in the region... they same similar things....

a bunch of kids with guns and a lot of hatred for things that move.

Of course, these cam films are passed on by the networks for their "disturbing nature".

It's not like they say anything the rest of the world doesn't already know...


I quite like americans, generally... when they're not in groups.... Get a group together, and they go into tormenting wolf pack status at the very disagreement with them... The solo americans have to behave themselves and treat others with respect. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

Sorry tojump in here, but I have to add to those that believe that America isn't trigger happy, In the Gulf War (1) England lost more troops to their american "allies" than to the people they were fighting.

go figure.
Isn't that how it went in this "war" as well? I wonder how many of the total American troop loss has been to ff

Ok, it probably was an accident.

How about the son of the Iraq Chief of Police being killed in custody, barely hours after his father saw him being arrested, and hhaving no injurys or illness whatsoever. According to witness reports he was fly-kicked in the chest, fell to the floor choking and was chucked in a cell.
It was reported in a number of english papers a number of weeks back.

I've built up a nice collection of pilfered video footage of troops performing their duties in Iraq...


Let me say this, I've never seen so many outright executions of insurgents with accompanying chest beatings and "haha, he's dead now" type comments.

My fav is one with an Iraqi, riddled with bullet holes, half a k away, writhing in pain... and some dumb meathead finishing the job then bragging on helmet cam....

Plus I have a number of relatives and friends in the region... they same similar things....

a bunch of kids with guns and a lot of hatred for things that move.

Of course, these cam films are passed on by the networks for their "disturbing nature".

It's not like they say anything the rest of the world doesn't already know...


I quite like americans, generally... when they're not in groups.... Get a group together, and they go into tormenting wolf pack status at the very disagreement with them... The solo americans have to behave themselves and treat others with respect. Wonder why? :rolleyes:

And rember that wonded man shot in that mosque, also american troops usesd nerve gas during their offensive in al-falluja, they lost 200 troops and 300 were wonded big time, have no numbers on insurgent deaths, but to maney civilians

Any way, the US has a army based on, you sign a contract for us 8 years. Anyway they are all merceneryes, they fight for money, not for country, they are lowest creaturs on gods earth, i hate payed soldiers, merceneries, death to them

you anglo shit dont speak anything but english

Gracias, senor. Yo applaudo tu ignorancia. Tu tiene una carrera fina adelantado de tu como el Bill O'Reilly joven, tuerza el verdad.

I speak and write it. I also speak and write German, though not as well, and can read some Latin and French. I don't think I need to drop myself to your level by assaulting an entire race based on your personal stupidity. And no, we don't shoot at anything. Perhaps we shoot at a car, speeding at us in the middle of the night, in an area that has known several suicide attacks using similar tactics, but that is not being "trigger-happy motherfuckers", it is a self-preservation tactic. I'm sure what ever exalted culture you're from has something similar.

Just a side note, I don't support the war in Iraq, but I do support our troops and hope they come back safe and I don't like people who don't seem to be in touch with reality.

But anyway, the americans are crazy mother fuckers they shot at anything, their favorite are women and children. Becouse they dont shot back...

This is pathetic and it has nothing to do with your grammer and spelling.

Uh okay Berserker, because you of course are the impiety of objectivity. Yes? We couldn't possibly be right. or even close.. spare me. :rolleyes:

If you ever get the chance to know half o what Zeppistan knows, get back to me.. ;)
Look, I didn't say you were always wrong, or that I was always right. I simply think you are biased and that a majority of your observations are skewed by said bias.

As for what I do, or do not know, well it depends on the subject matter. In terms of Zepp's profession, he likely knows more than I. In terms of the American military, war in general, and other subjects, I'm quite confident I know more than he does.

Look, I didn't say you were always wrong, or that I was always right. I simply think you are biased and that a majority of your observations are skewed by said bias.

As for what I do, or do not know, well it depends on the subject matter. In terms of Zepp's profession, he likely knows more than I. In terms of the American military, war in general, and other subjects, I'm quite confident I know more than he does.

Fair enough, don't paint us with a one brush and we won't paint you with one either..

Zeppistan has won in an actually fair contest that didn't include blind voting, nor has he ever been warned for flaming or flamebait as the best debater on this site.
Somebody's getting defensive.

This is pathetic and it has nothing to do with your grammer and spelling.

I see you are from japan, then why are you supporting the US you got nuked by them god damnet, you are the only place that ever got nuked

Somebody's getting defensive.

Nope just saying what actually happened, as in reality.

Any way, the US has a army based on, you sign a contract for us 8 years. Anyway they are all merceneryes, they fight for money, not for country, they are lowest creaturs on gods earth, i hate payed soldiers, merceneries, death to them
Umm, I can't really think of any country where soldiers aren't payed.

As for doing it for the money...unlikely. Considering that military pay sucks (more so for the enlisted who make up the bulk of the armed forces) compared to civilian pay, most people don't do it for the money. They do it for country.

Case in point:
MILITARY PAY

This is an Airman's response to Cindy Williams' editorial
piece in the
Washington Times about MILITARY PAY, it should be printed in all newspapers across America.

On Nov. 12, Ms Cindy Williams (from Laverne and Shirley TV
show) wrote a
piece for the Washington Times, denouncing the pay raise(s) coming service members' way this year -- citing that the stated 13% wage was more than they deserve.

A young airman from Hill AFB responds to her article below.
He ought
to get a bonus for this.


"Ms Williams:

I just had the pleasure of reading your column, "Our GIs
earn enough"
and I am a bit confused. Frankly, I'm wondering where this vaunted overpayment is going, because as far as I can tell, it disappears every month between DFAS (The Defense Finance and Accounting
Service)
and my bank account.

Checking my latest earnings statement I see that I make $1,117.80 before taxes. After taxes, I take home $874.20. When I run that through the calculator, I come up with an annual salary of $13,413.60 before taxes, and $10,490.40, after.

I work in the Air Force Network Control Center where I am
part of the
team responsible for a 5,000 host computer network. I am involved with infrastructure segments, specifically with Cisco Systems equipment. A quick check under jobs for Network Technicians in the Washington, D.C. area reveals a position in my career field, requiring three years experience with my job. Amazingly, this job does NOT pay $13,413.60 a year. No, this job is being offered at $70,000 to $80,000 per annum...I'm sure you can draw the obvious conclusions.

Given the tenor of your column, I would assume that you
NEVER had the
pleasure of serving your country in her armed forces Before
you take
it upon yourself to once more castigate congressional and
DOD
leadership for attempting to get the families in the
military's lowest
pay brackets off of WIC and food stamps, I suggest that you join a group of deploying soldiers headed for AFGHANISTAN; I leave the choice of service branch up to you.

Whatever choice you make, though, opt for the SIX month
rotation: it
will guarantee you the longest possible time away from your family and friends, thus giving you full "deployment experience." As your group prepares to board the plane, make sure to note the spouses and children who are saying good-bye to their loved ones. Also take care to note that several families are still unsure of how they'll be able to make ends meet while the primary breadwinner is gone -- obviously they've been squandering the "vast" piles of cash the government has been giving them.

Try to deploy over a major holiday; Christmas and
Thanksgiving are
perennial favorites. And when you're actually over there, sitting in a foxhole, shivering against the cold desert night; and the flight sergeant tells you that there aren't enough people on shift to relieve you for chow, remember this: trade whatever MRE
(meal-ready-to-eat)
you manage to get for the tuna noodle casserole or cheese tortellini, and add Tabasco to everything. This gives some flavor. Talk to your loved ones as often as you are permitted; it won't nearly be long enough or often enough, but take what you can get and be thankful for it. You may have picked up on the fact that I disagree with most of the points you present in your opened piece.

But, tomorrow from KABUL, I will defend to the death your
right to say it.

You see, I am an American fighting man, a guarantor of your First Amendment rights and every other right you cherish. On a daily basis, my brother and sister soldiers worldwide ensure that you and people like you can thumb your collective nose at us, all on a salary that is nothing short of pitiful and under conditions that would make most people cringe. We hemorrhage our best and brightest into the private sector because we can't offer the stability and pay of civilian companies.

And you, Ms. Williams, have the gall to say that we make
more than we
deserve? Rubbish!

A1C Michael Bragg Hill AFB AFNCC

I see you are from japan, then why are you supporting the US you got nuked by them god damnet, you are the only place that ever got nuked


Not totally correct.. the only place that was nuked in warfare.

Any way, the US has a army based on, you sign a contract for us 8 years. Anyway they are all merceneryes, they fight for money, not for country, they are lowest creaturs on gods earth, i hate payed soldiers, merceneries, death to them

Show me an unpaid soldier anywhere on Earth. Soldiers earn crap, comparatively, maybe 12-14K per year for an E-1. Soldiers have families too, but they aren't in it for the money.

Fair enough, don't paint us with a one brush and we won't paint you with one either..
It seems to me that you paint the US and the American military with a very broad brush, and I have a hard time believing that you won't paint me with one brush. (It's kinda hard to believe it with all the snide remarks regarding soldiers and their competence)

But whatever, you're entitled to your own opinions.

Typical American. Shoot all that moves for kicks.

Yeah, because we're all murderers here in the US.

It is too bad when a rescuer is shot and killed. Staying alive in a war zone is difficult. As for these people who are critical of an American soldier who shot a person who he thought was the enemy, I suppose they have never made a mistake. I'm sure that every time they saw a person who could be an armed attacker, or a suicide bomber, etc., and they had a weapon to stop this person, they did not shoot. Oh yeah, I guess some of these critics have never been in an army or fought in a war. As for me, I support peace. I say the U.S. should never have launched a war. Since we are beyond that point, then all comers must accept the outcome. Sometimes, innocent people are killed.

Haha, funny all these Americans saying 'Well it's THEIR fault for driving towards the checkpoint fast!' Of course they were driving fast - they probably wanted to get to safety as fast as they could.

Face it - for all it's advanced technology, your military has a bad track record when it comes to things like this. More British troops were killed by American friendly fire than by Iraqis during the war. American troops on the whole are just not disciplined enough to handle conflict and they have a 'Kill anything not American' attitude. I can just imagine it now

'Hey sarge! Ah bet that car has some sand niggers in it' *Bam bam!*
'Aww...it weren't a towel head, but they were filthy spicks, ahur ahur ahur'

It obviously was a mistake, but that doesn't excuse it. The American army shouldn't let it's army get to a point where it is so unintelligent and ill disciplined that things like this happen.

WHO are YOU again?


What differance does that make?

The only issues are the following

1) Has your bias completely outweighed any insight you might have to offer
2) Why you refuse to answer charges of your EXTREMELY selective quoting and why others should not question your credibility given this.
3) Based upon your selective interpretation of EVERYTHING, why anyone should give any weight to anything you have to say
4) The increase in pro US speech since you left/were forced to leave the mod team?

Hey, whatever. Not that it matters in my life, but do you really think that you are objective? Or even reasonably balanced? or Believeable?

Because I know what I think of you, I am sure other do as well.

Perhaps I am misguided, perhaps. How you think is entirely up to you.

But like I said in a another post, in my industry we have a word to decribe people who only see the things that affirm their beliefs.

Haha, funny all these Americans saying 'Well it's THEIR fault for driving towards the checkpoint fast!' Of course they were driving fast - they probably wanted to get to safety as fast as they could.

Face it - for all it's advanced technology, your military has a bad track record when it comes to things like this. More British troops were killed by American friendly fire than by Iraqis during the war. American troops on the whole are just not disciplined enough to handle conflict and they have a 'Kill anything not American' attitude. I can just imagine it now

'Hey sarge! Ah bet that car has some sand niggers in it' *Bam bam!*
'Aww...it weren't a towel head, but they were filthy spicks, ahur ahur ahur'
Well, in the first Gulf War (if I remember correctly) more Americans were killed by Americans than Iraqis as well, it's something that happens when you have mechanized warfare.

And, how the incident at the checkpoint probably went down...

Pvt.: Sarge, we've got a car coming in fast.

Sgt: Ok, play the warnings, keep your eyes on it.

*warning played over loudspeaker in English, Arabic and possibly Farsi*

Pvt: Sarge, they're not slowing down...

Sgt: Ah hell...give 'em another moment...

Pvt: Still not slowing down...

Sgt: (grimaces) Today's not a good day to die...open fire

*soldiers fire on car, car stops*

Sgt: Go over and check out that car...

*soldiers check car*

Pvt: Sarge! Car's clean...one of 'em is still alive...

Sarge: Damn...get a medivac helicopter here right away!

Haha, funny all these Americans saying 'Well it's THEIR fault for driving towards the checkpoint fast!' Of course they were driving fast - they probably wanted to get to safety as fast as they could.

Face it - for all it's advanced technology, your military has a bad track record when it comes to things like this. More British troops were killed by American friendly fire than by Iraqis during the war. American troops on the whole are just not disciplined enough to handle conflict and they have a 'Kill anything not American' attitude. I can just imagine it now

'Hey sarge! Ah bet that car has some sand niggers in it' *Bam bam!*
'Aww...it weren't a towel head, but they were filthy spicks, ahur ahur ahur'

Actually, it was probably something like this.

"Identify yourself! Stop or I will shoot! Stop! Halt!" Bang, bang.

As for American troops killing British, we did that back in the Revolutionary War, when we were colonists. I don't see you attributing your statement that we killed more Brits than the Iraqis. Where is this study in regard to the Iraqi war. I can say that more than 1,500 American soldiers have died over there so far.

I see you are from japan, then why are you supporting the US you got nuked by them god damnet, you are the only place that ever got nuked

I'm from the US. My wife is Japanese. By nuking Japan we saved millions of Japanese lives. It was a shitty choice to have to make but it was the only good thing Truman ever did.

I think few suicide cars in iraq are SUVs with italian markings :rolleyes:

So they just shot..

Haha, funny all these Americans saying 'Well it's THEIR fault for driving towards the checkpoint fast!' Of course they were driving fast - they probably wanted to get to safety as fast as they could.

Face it - for all it's advanced technology, your military has a bad track record when it comes to things like this. More British troops were killed by American friendly fire than by Iraqis during the war. American troops on the whole are just not disciplined enough to handle conflict and they have a 'Kill anything not American' attitude. I can just imagine it now

'Hey sarge! Ah bet that car has some sand niggers in it' *Bam bam!*
'Aww...it weren't a towel head, but they were filthy spicks, ahur ahur ahur'
It's a combination of factors, and both parties are likely responsible.
Yes, it is the troops responsibility for firing. But was the car marked as friendly? Did they make any attempt to contact the American soldiers ahead of time? Do you think the soldiers could see who was driving it?

Likely not.
So they did what any reasonable soldier (British, American or otherwise) with an unidentified vehicle barreling towards them would have done.
Opened fire.
Preferably, they would have given a warning shot (does the article say) at which point the driver should have slowed down.
But when the enemy has the habit of coming up to you dressed like any other civie or driving up in any civie car, only to blow themselves (and you) up, a car barreling down the road towards your checkpoint is a definite risk.

Here's the CNN article with a good description of what happened.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/03/04/iraq.main/index.html

I think few suicide cars in iraq are SUVs with italian markings :rolleyes:

So they just shot..

Oh, thank God we have a person writing here who is in Iraq and can identify vehicles that are safe from suspicion. Perhaps, you can lend your support to the military who are searching for people who put bombs in cars and blow up civilians that are seeking jobs as Iraqi policemen.

From CNN: the car approached the checkpoint at high speed about 9 p.m. (1 p.m. ET)

U.S. troops "attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car," the statement said. "When the driver didn't stop, the soldiers shot into the engine block, which stopped the vehicle."

The statement said the other wounded person was a man who was treated at the scene but refused to go to the hospital.

Berlusconi said she had shrapnel in her left shoulder, and U.S. military officials said she was taken to a military hospital.

I find it fascinating how a post raises such a rabid defence with the purile response of "attack the messenger".


"You're just anti-american!!"

"You sux0r! And your wife sux0r too!""

"What - do you get paid for making america look bad?"

No. I don't. America is quite capable of doing that all by itself withoug need to compensate me for the job. And those of you who feel the need to misdirect your (unfounded) anger at me towards my wife have nothing but my utter contempt.


And in the end, you all completely missed the point. The only point I was making - which my only comment to the article should have been enough to clue you in to if you took your blinders of defensive reactionism off - was that this poor woman was having nothing but bad luck.

I didn't state that the soldiers weren't following proper procedure regarding vehicles approaching the checkpoint.

I didn't state that there was anything nefarious at all about the event.


ALL I said was: "You know this just isn't the right country for you when...." in relation to the title which clearly indicated that my subject was the reporter.





So how about everyone here holster their childish rants about my supposed bias against your fine country, stick your comments to my wife where the sun don't shine (she's a far better person than anyone else I've ever had the honour to know in my life), and carry on from there.



And if you can't - like I give a damn. You can keep trying to make it personal if you like, but I'll never take it that way. It is, after all, only the internet.

Uh okay Berserker, because you of course are the impiety of objectivity. Yes? We couldn't possibly be right. or even close.. spare me. :rolleyes:

If you ever get the chance to know half o what Zeppistan knows, get back to me.. ;)

Why? While zeppistan has shown himself to be both intelligent and knowledable and BIASED, all you have demonstrated is your bias.

You have never demonstrated anything other than a blinding faith towards your cause.

I can think of many reasons why i respect but do not agree with Zeppistan's ideas, I can think of none for you. You blindy support/oppose some ideas wthout the cognitave ability to do more than the internet version of repeating what you believe and throwing a psuedo tantrum. Or at worst saying "I am done wth you" yet later responding.

So, whatever you think / dont think of of me, let me tell you that I view your posts as humour...at best. I realize that you are basically a child and that your opinions should be weighted as such

Oh, thank God we have a person writing here who is in Iraq and can identify vehicles that are safe from suspicion. Perhaps, you can lend your support to the military who are searching for people who put bombs in cars and blow up civilians that are seeking jobs as Iraqi policemen.

yeah i could to that, a convoi with diplomaitic markings its not going to suicide it self.... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

They shot into the engine and managed to wound some one fatally? I propose they do a better job at weapon's training assuming that is what happened

yeah i could to that, a convoi with diplomaitic markings its not going to suicide it self.... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Obviously, English is a second language for you. I was joking. I know you can't identify one vehicle as being safe, any more than you can understand sarcasm. Please read more, though, before you try writing in a language that you have not mastered. Read, little Theresa.

They shot into the engine and managed to wound some one fatally? I propose they do a better job at weapon's training assuming that is what happened
It's not that unlikely. While a better way to crack an engine block is with a .50 cal sniper rifle, I doubt they had one on hand. I'm not sure about the stopping power of the standard rifle in relation to a car, so t hey probably used a machine gun. If the checkpoint guards were marines, they probably would have used an m249 (which likely has the stopping power) Unfortunately, against a moving target at range, the m249 would have a good amount of spread, leading to rounds entering the passenger compartment.

<snip> paraphrased as blah blah whine whine attack attack

My wife, much as myself, could give a rats ass about the opinions of someone who's only contribution to the thread is personal attacks.

We'd consider debating your positions, however thus far the only one you are demonstrating is your position on having an inate propensity for childishness, and it seems to be speaking well enough for itself without our support.



So carry on sir. Full speed ahead. You are doing a fine job.... but if you find that you need help to make youself look bad, in your case I might consider a paid position helping you out since I'm not - as you suggested - getting paid for any of my political commentary.

This is from a source I'm pretty sure is trustworthy.
I've heard different reports which give different figures, but the internet is useless for finding decent sources.

148
combat dead and 467 wounded. Of those, 35 deaths and 72 injuries were from
'friendly fire'.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00006.html

It's not that unlikely. While a better way to crack an engine block is with a .50 cal sniper rifle, I doubt they had one on hand. I'm not sure about the stopping power of the standard rifle in relation to a car, so t hey probably used a machine gun. If the checkpoint guards were marines, they probably would have used an m249 (which likely has the stopping power) Unfortunately, against a moving target at range, the m249 would have a good amount of spread, leading to rounds entering the passenger compartment.
The ponit stands, might not want to spray moving vehicles with occupants if you jsut want to stop it

This is from a source I'm pretty sure is trustworthy.
I've heard different reports which give different figures, but the internet is useless for finding decent sources.

148
combat dead and 467 wounded. Of those, 35 deaths and 72 injuries were from
'friendly fire'.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2000/msg00006.html

I think that figure is ok, but i countet all deaths as deaths, combat deaths means people who were kiled on the spot, so i cind of guessed it out to who didnt last it through the day, but an all 600 or so people inmobelaised on the US side...

I think that figure is ok, but i countet all deaths as deaths, combat deaths means people who were kiled on the spot, so i cind of guessed it out to who didnt last it through the day, but an all 600 or so people inmobelaised on the US side...

note that it doesn't say how many injuries were frindly fire as well.

Very few reports are ever released that specifiy friendly injuries.

I think that figure is ok, but i countet all deaths as deaths, combat deaths means people who were kiled on the spot, so i cind of guessed it out to who didnt last it through the day, but an all 600 or so people inmobelaised on the US side...

There are more than 1,500 American military men and women who have been killed in the war in Iraq.

There are more than 1,500 American military men and women who have been killed in the war in Iraq.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Gulf War, as in 1991.

There are more than 1,500 American military men and women who have been killed in the war in Iraq.

So how high you thing the body count is?

3000 or so would be my guess, no more the 3500

yeah i could to that, a convoi with diplomaitic markings its not going to suicide it self.... :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Well, I'd think the fact that it was a single car makes it not qualify as a convoy. And there's also the fact that the insurgents have been using ambulances and other marked vehicles are suicide bombs, I wouldn't be surprised if they were to use a car with diplomatic markings.

My wife, much as myself, could give a rats ass about the opinions of someone who's only contribution to the thread is personal attacks.

We'd consider debating your positions, however thus far the only one you are demonstrating is your position on having an inate propensity for childishness, and it seems to be speaking well enough for itself without our support.



So carry on sir. Full speed ahead. You are doing a fine job.... but if you find that you need help to make youself look bad, in your case I might consider a paid position helping you out since I'm not - as you suggested - getting paid for any of my political commentary.
Zeppistan, turning bitterness into an art form since August 2003

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Gulf War, as in 1991.

Oh, that is old news. One would think there is a place where the confirmed dead are noted by the various governments involved in that war.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the Gulf War, as in 1991.


:confused:

I tought the west lost under 200 ppl in all during gulf 1 :confused:

Here's the raw numbers for the Gulf War...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/gulf.war/facts/gulfwar/

So how high you thing the body count is?

3000 or so would be my guess, no more the 3500

Please rephrase your question so that it can be answered. I do not understand your jumbled thoughts. What are you trying to ask. :)

Zeppistan, turning bitterness into an art form since August 2003
Biased flamebaiting since 2004

Well, how many american and british servicemen have lost their lives in iraq, not only combat deaths but including those who later died in hospital...

:confused:

I tought the west lost under 200 ppl in all during gulf 1 :confused:

I've found that its extremely difficult to find acccurate results for any conflict that is not conflicted by another report.

Also, in response to the CNN report of official statistics, I often find Official results are mostly B S. Especially American reports. Nothing against america, just something I've noticed.

Well, how many american and british servicemen have lost their lives in iraq, not only combat deaths but including those who later died in hospital...
In this war...about 1500

Well, how many american and british servicemen have lost their lives in iraq, not only combat deaths but including those who later died in hospital...

Oh. I don't know. There have been too many people killed over nothing. This war is stupid. If Iraq's people wanted democracy, they should have started their own civil war. There are no weapons of mass destruction there. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, but there are many of those throughout the globe. The number of deaths is trivia. Think about the reality of how those people were sons, fathers, husbands, wives, daughters. They are gone. For what? There is no glory in war. Fighting is not the answer. Peace is the way to go.

Agree dude, but just wondering, i mean the figure is way above 1500.. Nevr mind

People who believe that war can ever lead to peace needs help.
All we are doing is breeding more terrorists.
The amount of people pissed with america has increased tenfold since they took on the foreign policy of scr*w everyone else, we're right and we'll boycott you internationally if you don't bow down to us. i.e. The destruction of French goods and resturants when the american goverment said they were evil and standing in the way of "democracy" and "peace".

Biased flamebaiting since 2004
Well, if you wanta get technical, since about 1995-6, when I was in 5th grade. And really the biased is a bit redundant, given that it's nigh impossible to actually be unbaised about something. For that matter it was more of a snide comment than flame bait, seeing as flame bait would require me to want to provoke an argument.

There is a thin line between provoking an argument and provoking discussion.
Many people forget this and get offended.

People who believe that war can ever lead to peace needs help.

Making war for peace is a little like fucking for virginity... :headbang:

Making war for peace is a little like fucking for virginity... :headbang:
How else are you supposed to get new virgins?

How else are you supposed to get new virgins?

Lmao.. :D

The anti-U.S. rhetoric in this thread is unjustified. The troops fired warning shots. They gave the speeding car a chance. In light of recent events - that is to say, car bombings - the soldiers came to the natural and logical conclusion that the car was most likely carrying terrorists or a bomb. The soldiers shot at the engine block, indicating that they weren't trying to mow down everyone in the car. They were just trying to stop it. That the people inside the vehicle were killed was almost unavoidable, of course.

Anyone who would have done otherwise in that position would make a terrible soldier, and might have been responsible for the deaths of even more innocents.

The anti-U.S. rhetoric in this thread is unjustified.


Ponder me this, why is any thing that isn't American propaganda, Anti-American?

Honestly, do you expect them to simply let such a speeding car which does not respond to signals kindly approach so as to be indentified at point blank range? Understand, suicide bombers who have killed hundreds of innocent iraqi civilians, indeed, specifically iraqi civilians, as well as dozens of US servicemen have used the exact same tactic. Moreover they will not stop attempting to approach and detonate their vehicle until they are physically unable to press the accelerator or the car's engine gives out. Any trained soldier in Iraq would have opened fire, be they American or British or Italian.

As for the friendly fire incidents. The reason the British suffer disproportionate losses from American airpower is A. due to the effectiveness of American airpower in comparison to enemy fire, when the US airforce targets, it rarely misses. B. Stems in part from the differences in communication and signaling used by the British armed forces in comparison to the Americans, allowing for easier misidentification. and...C. The fact that the majority of close air support coming to British troops is American, as the US Airforce and Naval Air Wing provide the vast majority of combat close support aircraft. The RAF and RNAF provide strike aircraft and harriers mainly, so that their forces are supported by American firepower from the air in combat zones.

The ponit stands, might not want to spray moving vehicles with occupants if you jsut want to stop it
It's kinda hard not to do a little bit of spraying with that type of weapon.
While the checkpoint guards may hope that they stop the car without killing the occupants, it isn't the highest priority (stopping the vehicle is).

As for the friendly fire incidents. The reason the British suffer disproportionate losses from American airpower is A. due to the effectiveness of American airpower in comparison to enemy fire, when the US airforce targets, it rarely misses. B. Stems in part from the differences in communication and signaling used by the British armed forces in comparison to the Americans, allowing for easier misidentification. and...C. The fact that the majority of close air support coming to British troops is American, as the US Airforce and Naval Air Wing provide the vast majority of combat close support aircraft. The RAF and RNAF provide strike aircraft and harriers mainly, so that their forces are supported by American firepower from the air in combat zones.
Honestly... are you trying to make a point? Jezus. Just look at 'proof' A and the drivel before it...

you know this just isn't the right country for you when.... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050304/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050304195046)

My heart, it weeps. (not really)

I know that I, and a lot of others come across as strongly anti-american, but I feel that our viewpoint is just and generally not as extreme as the war supporters. Although I have to say I always now look upon any american international action with suspicion when they used 9/11 as an excuse to go to war when there has always been strong evidence that they were totally unrelated.

Ponder me this, why is any thing that isn't American propaganda, Anti-American?
Why is anything that is American automatically bad?

Why is anything that is American automatically bad?

It isn't. I know a number of americans and they are all good people.
America has done some good things.
But its current foriegn policy is so screwed up it makes a lot of people worried about world safety in the coming years.
2 wars under one president who is threatening 2 more is not a good foreign policy.

Making war for peace is a little like fucking for virginity... :headbang:
Pieces taken from an article writen in the local Uni. News.

"It's naïve to believe that a just peace can be secured simply through laying down our arms. That by abandoning our defenses and submitting to the dictates of our enemies, the forces opposing us would reciprocate in kind, thus procuring some manifest utopia."
"Once the fire of our witness has been doused with our own blood, who is entrusted to carry on our message?"

Dont waste your breath-you're better off banging your head on the wall. Everyone is so content to hold their hand out to US cash and assistance-hell-they even have the nerve to judge wether the amount is appropriate. All the while, stabbing us in the back at any chance they get.

Liiiike.... Israel?

Ponder me this, why is any thing that isn't American propaganda, Anti-American?answer me this... why is anything Pro-American automatically American Propaganda?

Why has everyone forgotten all the good that Bush has done?

Pieces taken from an article writen in the local Uni. News.

"It's naïve to believe that a just peace can be secured simply through laying down our arms. That by abandoning our defenses and submitting to the dictates of our enemies, the forces opposing us would reciprocate in kind, thus procuring some manifest utopia."
"Once the fire of our witness has been doused with our own blood, who is entrusted to carry on our message?"

Ghandi.

He changed an entire country and brought peace through sitting down and talking.
If a group of innocent civilians sit down in the road as a protest, lets the media know, and a american patrol runs them down or kills them there would be an international outcry at the conduct of american troops that the american goverment could not just ignore.

Honestly... are you trying to make a point? Jezus. Just look at 'proof' A and the drivel before it...

Um, actually, he made a good point. He was clarifying all of the statistics people have been throwing around about friendly fatalities in relation to British and American soldiers. The only way you would read that as drivel would be if you did not, like Theresa, have a competent control of the language, in which case you should not be posting, or if you had all the mental ability of a retarded three year-old, in which case you should probably go back to whatever home you escaped from.

Ghandi.

He changed an entire country and brought peace through sitting down and talking.
If a group of innocent civilians sit down in the road as a protest, lets the media know, and a american patrol runs them down or kills them there would be an international outcry at the conduct of american troops that the american goverment could not just ignore.

And what happened to Ghandi? He was shot in the stomach for his ideals. Guess theres no pleasing some people.

The only way you would read that as drivel would be if you did not, like Theresa, have a competent control of the language, in which case you should not be posting, or if you had all the mental ability of a retarded three year-old, in which case you should probably go back to whatever home you escaped from.

Its a little harsh to say someone who isn't a perfect english speaker shouldn't be allowed to post.

Although you probably didn't mean it in the literal sense.

Ghandi.

He changed an entire country and brought peace through sitting down and talking.
If a group of innocent civilians sit down in the road as a protest, lets the media know, and a american patrol runs them down or kills them there would be an international outcry at the conduct of american troops that the american goverment could not just ignore.
There is more to the Indian situation than just peaceful protest. While Ghandi served as an excellent inspiration to the people of India, and a great rallying point, there was more to the change in relations between India and Britain than just some protestors. (Honestly, would a nation give up prime real-estate simply because someone asked nicely?)

For instance, a number of concessions were given to the Indian people during WWII due to British fear that India might switch sides and join Japan (who had been trying to court India) Ghandi also stated that the British Empire's gravest crime was disarming the Indian people, a move which effectively removed their (non-peaceful) resistance. Ghandi was indeed wise, however, he wasn't naïve.

To quote another wise man, Winston Churchill, "No foreign policy can have validity if there is no adequate force behind it and no national readiness to make the necessary sacrifices to produce that force."
To work off your example, the government could damn well ignore the "outcry", because if there is no will to back up the assertion, then there is little reason to pay it any attention. Granted it would be the decent thing to do, but governments act in their own self-interest (something each and every nation is guilty of).

In an ideal world, we would not have to have this discussion. Humanity would simply default to peace because it would be the prefered condition....in an ideal world.

I don't expect you to be perfect, but if you average six misspelled words in a post and most of the posts are under ten words long, maybe you should go spend some more time with your English study book, and less time wasting other people's time to write your poorly reasoned, invective-filled, fact-twisting, eight-word rants, and expecting to be taken seriously.

And what happened to Ghandi? He was shot in the stomach for his ideals. Guess theres no pleasing some people.

How many people have died in iraq?
None of the killing has acheived anything but more hate.
At least ghandi made a major difference, and he never be forgotten for it.
Unless everyone loses their memory and all historical records overnight.
But I doubt thats gonna happen.

To quote another wise man, Winston Churchill, "No foreign policy can have validity if there is no adequate force behind it and no national readiness to make the necessary sacrifices to produce that force."
To work off your example, the government could damn well ignore the "outcry", because if there is no will to back up the assertion, then there is little reason to pay it any attention. Granted it would be the decent thing to do, but governments act in their own self-interest (something each and every nation is guilty of).


Good point. But it still takes a person to stand up and make their point known. Sometimes that is all it takes.

I don't expect you to be perfect, but if you average six misspelled words in a post and most of the posts are under ten words long, maybe you should go spend some more time with your English study book, and less time wasting other people's time to write your poorly reasoned, invective-filled, fact-twisting, eight-word rants, and expecting to be taken seriously.

If you were referring to me, I apologise wholeheartedly.
I'm just tired, thats all.
I also apologise if my facts are incorrect or I don't give sources.
I'm just too damn lazy to look every little thing up.

No, not you, Theresa. I actually don't have a lot of problems with you, though you could lighten up on Americans. Most of us are nice people, though lazy. We can't help that the rest of the country actually votes and elected a jackass.

Good point. But it still takes a person to stand up and make their point known. Sometimes that is all it takes.
Yes, and that is admirable. But this does not mean the opposition will follow suit.
Just peace is something that I think most people hope for. Unfortunately, given the continuing nature of man, it will continue to be necessary to back up peace with force, as contridictory as that may seem.

Both approaches to peace are likely to be needed in order to secure a just peace for the world, so continue to preach non-violence, just be aware of the necessity for others to stand guard, so that those who would blindly disregard said preaching, will not stop you from preaching non-violence.

No, not you, Theresa. I actually don't have a lot of problems with you, though you could lighten up on Americans. Most of us are nice people, though lazy. We can't help that the rest of the country actually votes and elected a jackass.

Thats cool then. If you noticed earlier I mentioned I like most of the americans I have met, and only have a problem with a lot of the american goverments policies.

Plus, I see laziness as a human right that should not be violated in any way or form.

This will really encourage Europe to help out America in Iraq. Who needs terrorists when you have trigger happy Americans running around.

This will really encourage Europe to help out America in Iraq. Who needs terrorists when you have trigger happy Americans running around.

Unfortunately more countries in Iraq means more countries that the Iraqi people feel have invaded and bombed the hell out of everywhere.
The world leaders who support the "War On Terror!" don't seem to realise that every civilian who has lost friends, family and their livelyhood through the bombing campaign is now a potential terrorist. They will be angry, probably pretty damn deppressed and wanting some kind of revenge.

Can't blame them really.

Unfortunately more countries in Iraq means more countries that the Iraqi people feel have invaded and bombed the hell out of everywhere.
The world leaders who support the "War On Terror!" don't seem to realise that every civilian who has lost friends, family and their livelyhood through the bombing campaign is now a potential terrorist. They will be angry, probably pretty damn deppressed and wanting some kind of revenge.

Can't blame them really.

Australia added 450 troops while everyone else getting out. That's 300 million per year of OUR taxes for this stupid US obsession.

Australia added 450 troops while everyone else getting out. That's 300 million per year of OUR taxes for this stupid US obsession.

Yeah, a lot of world leaders made the wrong call on iraq.
I think it has reached the point now that troops must be kept until everything is in control of the Iraqi people and not some Oil tycoon sponsered "president".
I just believe that if more world leaders stood up and said "what the hell do you think you are doing? There are no WMD's! You're just p*ssing people off!" to Bush much earlier on we wouldn't have this problem now.

answer me this... why is anything Pro-American automatically American Propaganda?

Why has everyone forgotten all the good that Bush has done?


Umm.... good... Bush...

did you just use good and Bush in the same sentence?

There is very little that bush has done. What good he has done could have been done better by someone else. That pretty much sums it up.

Sorry if the truth hurts. Perhaps America should stop doing things that make them look bad? Don't shoot the messenger.

In fact, more Canadians have been killed in Afghanistan by Americans than by the enemy.

Perhaps get a safety on those trigger happy soldiers. Yeah?

The Canadian soldiers dying in Afghanistan was tragic. But, do you know the story behind that? It was due to lack of Canadian troops proffesionalism. And Lack of following Nato standards. What they were doing was shooting all over the place in the middle of nowhere. Whilst not telling command where they were.

The problem is that CIA known the liberation of Giuliana, and then the problem is that American communications didn't work.

Could be the time that we retire our troops from Iraq? I hope.

Just curious, doesnt really matter because I have already written you off as one of "those" people.

Doesn't really matter either, because so have I.

But this quote will go up on my wall.

Friendly fire is simply a function of the reality of things in a difficult situation.

I can imagine that in a campaign ad. "Friendly Fire is simply a function of the reality of things in a difficult situation. Vote Bush/Cheney in 2004."

Don't know whether to put a :p or a :headbang: here

Ghandi.

He changed an entire country and brought peace through sitting down and talking.
If it had been the germans in charge of India that wouldn't have worked. For diplomatic solutions like the one to work the opponent must be rational. When the so-called insurgents are being led by someone who has publicly denounced any form of democracy as being evil and set himself up in direct opposition to it one can assume rationality has been defenestrated.

The Canadian soldiers dying in Afghanistan was tragic. But, do you know the story behind that? It was due to lack of Canadian troops proffesionalism. And Lack of following Nato standards. What they were doing was shooting all over the place in the middle of nowhere. Whilst not telling command where they were.


Bullshit! They were in an approved training area on an exercise that the command had been duly notified of. It was restricted airspace because it was a training area, which is why the air command told the pilots to hold fire until they checked the training logs. The pilot dropped the pickle anyway before he got the confirmation that it was a known exercise.

Try reading the report from the board of inquiry (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2002/tarmak_content_e.htm) before you throw such aspersions on soldiers.

And try reading the letter of reprimand (http://foi.missouri.edu/privacyact/reprimand1.html) given the pilot.


You are hereby reprimanded. You flagrantly disregarded a direct order from the controlling agency, exercised a total lack of basic flight discipline over your aircraft, and blatantly ignored the applicable rules of engagement and special instructions. Your wilful misconduct directly caused the most egregious consequences imaginable, the deaths of four coalition soldiers and injury to eight others. The victims of your callous misbehaviour were from one of our staunch allies in Operation Enduring Freedom and were your comrades-in-arms.

"You acted shamefully on 17 April 2002 over Tarnak Farms, Afghanistan, exhibiting arrogance and a lack of flight discipline. When your flight lead warned you to "make sure it's not friendlies" and the Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft controller directed you to "stand by" and later to "hold fire," you should have marked the location with your targeting pod. Thereafter, if you believed, as you stated, you and your leader were threatened, you should have taken a series of evasive actions and remained at a safe distance to await further instructions from AWACS. Instead, you closed on the target and blatantly disobeyed the direction to "hold fire." Your failure to follow that order is inexcusable. I do not believe you acted in defence of Maj. Umbach or yourself. Your actions indicate that you used your self-defence declaration as a pretext to strike a target, which you rashly decided was an enemy firing position, and about which you had exhausted your patience in waiting for clearance from the Combined Air Operations Center to engage. You used the inherent right of self-defence as an excuse to wage your own war.

"In your personal presentation before me on 1 July 2004, I was astounded that you portrayed yourself as a victim of the disciplinary process without expressing heartfelt remorse over the deaths and injuries you caused to the members of the Canadian Forces. In fact, you were obviously angry that the United States Air Force had dared to question your actions during the 17 April 2002 tragedy. Far from providing any defence for your actions, the written materials you presented to me at the hearing only served to illustrate the degree to which you lacked flight discipline as a wingman of COFFEE Flight on 17 April 2002.

Through your arrogance, you undermined one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world, consisting of the Combined Air Operations Center, the Airborne Warning and Control System, and highly disciplined pilots, all of whom must work together in an integrated fashion to achieve combat goals. The United States Air Force is a major contributor to military victories over our nation's enemies because our pilots possess superior flight discipline. However, your actions on the night of 17 April 2002 demonstrate an astonishing lack of flight discipline. You were blessed with an aptitude for aviation, your nation provided you the best aviation training on the planet, and you acquired combat expertise in previous armed conflicts. However, by your gross poor judgment, you ignored your training and your duty to exercise flight discipline, and the result was tragic. I have no faith in your abilities to perform in a combat environment.

"I am concerned about more than your poor airmanship; I am also greatly concerned about your officership and judgment. Our Air Force core values stress "integrity first." Following the engagement in question, you lied about the reasons why you engaged the target after you were directed to hold fire and then you sought to blame others. You had the right to remain silent, but not the right to lie. In short, the final casualty of the engagement over Kandahar on 17 April 2002 was your integrity."

you know this just isn't the right country for you when.... (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050304/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_050304195046)

Evil US! This makes all Americans bad! :rolleyes:

Evil US! This makes all Americans bad! :rolleyes:


No. It makes this one reporter who is having no luck except bad luck.

Bullshit! They were in an approved training area on an exercise that the command had been duly notified of. It was restricted airspace because it was a training area, which is why the air command told the pilots to hold fire until they checked the training logs. The pilot dropped the pickle anyway before he got the confirmation that it was a known exercise.

Try reading the report from the board of inquiry (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2002/tarmak_content_e.htm) before you throw such aspersions on soldiers.

And try reading the letter of reprimand (http://foi.missouri.edu/privacyact/reprimand1.html) given the pilot.

Yeah, that previous comment just screamed bullshit I'm afraid, thanks for hunting down the report so I didn't have to.

The report leaves little room for doubt; it was the pilot's fault entirely, the Canadian troops were in a designated live fire area and their bullets never hit the US craft, nor did richochet even reach their altitude. The pilots acted in direct opposition to their ROE, and were not even in agreement of what the situation was. More over their behavior before and after the incident was deemed "suspicious"...Moreover the VERY FIRST paragaph in the 'blame' section absolves the Canadian troops of any wrongdoing.

Ah, this topic. Great, isn't it?

Frankly, it's the Italian's fault. He evidentially didn't bother heeding the warnings of the troops to slow down. Granted, I feel sympathy for the family of the killed, and they should be compensated but....

Frankly, I think the soldier that shot the car should be punished. If you pump that much lead into a car and STILL don't kill them, you should be punished for incompetence. That's pathetic on the gunner's behalf.

Granted, please don't interpret that above statement as a fact "I don't care." But it was the Italian's fault, not the US troops. They should be lucky the gunner wasn't very good. Otherwise, they'd be dead.

Shot into the engine block and injured EVERYONE in the car? Holy crap, learn to shoot

Australia added 450 troops while everyone else getting out. That's 300 million per year of OUR taxes for this stupid US obsession.
My sympathies for that.

Why has everyone forgotten all the good that Bush has done?
Good that Bush has done? Uummmmm...can you name one thing?

Yeah, because we're all murderers here in the US.
Hmm..I rarely saw an American actually admitting to it.

Good that Bush has done? Uummmmm...can you name one thing?

Invaded Afghanistan, lowered taxes, refused to kowtow to those who disagree with him. That being said, I'm not a very ardent Bush supported. The last election for me was a choice between bad and worse.

Seen today on Euronews an Italian hinting this was perhaps not a coincidence since this journalist was working for a left wing paper with an anti-american stance... I believe though that Americans are just trigger-happy morons.

And above all, I am VERY VERY happy the woman is free at last, even if wounded.

Bullshit! They were in an approved training area on an exercise that the command had been duly notified of. It was restricted airspace because it was a training area, which is why the air command told the pilots to hold fire until they checked the training logs. The pilot dropped the pickle anyway before he got the confirmation that it was a known exercise.

Try reading the report from the board of inquiry (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2002/tarmak_content_e.htm) before you throw such aspersions on soldiers.

And try reading the letter of reprimand (http://foi.missouri.edu/privacyact/reprimand1.html) given the pilot.
Did you hear about the guy bitching that he can't fly and got docked like a year's pay? He killed four men who were fighting on the same side as him after being ordered not to fire. This asshole should be in jail, not just restricted from flying and having to pay a fine. That thing was bullshit.

Fucking US bastards! Shooting at that journalist because she had information about the US troops that US does not want to see daylight.

But, the plot (what else was it) failed. The fascists tried but only killed the secret service men, I hope that his collegues take revenge and kill a Ami in Italy, that is what I would do and surely what the US would do. So why not, after the stunt fly that killed 48 skiers in Cavalese some years ago, it is time to bring some guys to court or kill some. Even that asshole of a pilot get away with it, 48 deads :rolleyes: ...

Shot into the engine block and injured EVERYONE in the car? Holy crap, learn to shoot

Hrm...Let's see....you are aware that a machine gun fires at a very high rate, and that the car is moving, very quickly...speeding in fact towards the checkpoint. In other words, before aim can be adjusted the rate of fire and the speed of the car moving forward would cause the windshield to move into the line of fire and be peppered...

Fucking US bastards! Shooting at that journalist because she had information about the US troops that US does not want to see daylight.

But, the plot (what else was it) failed. The fascists tried but only killed the secret service men, I hope that his collegues take revenge and kill a Ami in Italy, that is what I would do and surely what the US would do. So why not, after the stunt fly that killed 48 skiers in Cavalese some years ago, it is time to bring some guys to court or kill some. Even that asshole of a pilot get away with it, 48 deads :rolleyes: ...

My my, you are sure intelligent....conspiracy theorist, bloodthirsty, radical anti-American, either an immature and childish teenager or a very immature adult.... thats all I can say about that comment.

Fucking US bastards! Shooting at that journalist because she had information about the US troops that US does not want to see daylight.

But, the plot (what else was it) failed. The fascists tried but only killed the secret service men, I hope that his collegues take revenge and kill a Ami in Italy, that is what I would do and surely what the US would do. So why not, after the stunt fly that killed 48 skiers in Cavalese some years ago, it is time to bring some guys to court or kill some. Even that asshole of a pilot get away with it, 48 deads :rolleyes: ...


yeah Italy should kill all US scum :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper:

You know, the car was not shot at at a check point, it was 700 meters from the airport and had pased all check points. So the people at the check point had indentifaied the car and toled the patrol tp open fire on it...

They were going to kill her, wake up itely, if you kill all US scum in you country you will once again be a soverigen state...

KILL ALL AMERICANS :sniper: :sniper:

My my, you are sure intelligent....conspiracy theorist, bloodthirsty, radical anti-American, either an immature and childish teenager or a very immature adult.... thats all I can say about that comment.

I just hop in and heard the news to. I can only say that:
1) Your attidude is very childish and somewhat imature or "hasbeen" (the way you aproche your opponent is quite seventies).
2) You are very simplistic for only watching/believing the US news.
3) You must be the right wing ass kiddo here, for automaticly scrapping the Italian opinion of a plot, after all, the journalist was writing stories about crimes, torture aso, things they don't like to see in the u(SS). She is acording the EU journalist unions multinational and from the memberstates apart, a very skilfull and neutral journalist. You just have choosen the easiest way, "nothing happened so we don't have to research this, and when we have to, we will do it ourselves instead of inviting neutral and non involved countries". That sir, is your aproach. BTYW forget the neutrality of a US research, they are involved and everyu democratic rule says that you need need neutral researchers on such maters instad of a party that is the suspect, advocate and judge together.

So, in short, you are the naive person here.
As a non English speaker, I excuse for the typos aso, and like to debate with those that attack me on those typo's or languageproblems(a typical neocon habit for runnining away of the subject/facts) in a neutral language for bothe discussionpartners , wich can be for me: Dutch/French/Italian, German,Romanian, just for getting equal in languages.

Good that Bush has done? Uummmmm...can you name one thing?
once...he almost ate a Pretzel :D

Theresa, Ritalin can help. Look into it. Then come back when you can post something worth the energy wasted reading it.

1. The attitude is not childish or "has been". He is dead on, plus, to read something you have to understand the author's beliefs and biases, and Theresa's biases and beliefs are quite obvious. Remember, a text without context is pretext.

2. The comment Churchill made had nothing to do with his choice of news-gathering services. It was his opinion about the tract he had read. The news services he utilizes had nothing to do with it. Your second point made no sense.

3. The AP report: "Sgrena's Il Manifesto paper, a Rome-based Communist daily". AP is not, as far as I can tell, very biased. However, Sgrena was. Calling her "a very nuetral reporter" is simply a falsehood. She was far left, heavily opposed to the war in Iraq, and her writings reflected that. I am not necessarily saying that is wrong, but it is not unbiased.

P.S. I have no problem with your english. I do have a problem with people who don't even have a rough grasp of the language and yet continue to spew their own twisted versions of it.

The Italians do deserve an explanation. Then again, there probably isn't any to give.

3. The AP report: "Sgrena's Il Manifesto paper, a Rome-based Communist daily". AP is not, as far as I can tell, very biased. However, Sgrena was. Calling her "a very nuetral reporter" is simply a falsehood. She was far left, heavily opposed to the war in Iraq, and her writings reflected that. I am not necessarily saying that is wrong, but it is not unbiased.



So a left or neutral source is wrong and a rightwing source like most US channels or extremist source like FOX is OK?
A left wing journalist can be a very good and unbiased one as long as he informes correctly. Perhaps you have a problem with that source because it brings out things that you want to cover (torturing, killings and now attacks on journalists).

Wow, that is biased.

Well, Sgrena herself seems to suspect US troops deliberately targeted her.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323361.stm

Hostage's shooting 'no accident'

Italian journalist Giuliana Sgrena has said she cannot accept US troops accidentally fired on her car after her kidnappers freed her in Baghdad.

(...)

Earlier, in another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

And writing in her left-wing Il Manifesto newspaper, she said upon her release her kidnappers warned her to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."

... Eureka, I know WHY US soldiers shot her!!! They mistook her for french hostage Florence Aubenas!

(/sarcasm) really hoping to see her back too...

Eyewitness from the car driver reported that the americans made a light signal and 5 seconds after opened the fire.
It turned out that the checkpoint was not informed about the car.
What happened is a failure to communicate, at least that's the US version.
What they did not say is that they shoot with .50 MGs and not on the engine like they stated but to kill.
You don't kill people inside an armoured car with an M16.

I haven't read the article, but I'm guessing the car zoomed towards the border without slowing or something. Hey if you were a soldier, how would you react?

Soldier 1: Oh no! A car is hurtling towards the border and WON'T STOP! WE BETTER STAND IN FRONT OF IT!

Soldier 2: Yea, let's g-! *Gets hit by car*

Ponder me this, why is any thing that isn't American propaganda, Anti-American?
I said no such thing; you're twisting my words in order to sidetrack the argument. You didn't say a single thing about the rest of my post; that only proves that you're interested in attacking America, not discussing the issues. I'm not playing your game.

Freedomfrize: Until she proves that she has any worth beyond being a human being, it seems to me that this reporter is just trying to get some publicity out of this tragic event - "I'm the reporter the U.S. is just DYING to kill! Lookitme!" I see no reason for the U.S. to attempt to kill her and only her when so many other similar situations to hers have arisen in the past.

Stirring up rumors isn't honest journalism. Stateside, we call it yellow journalism.

I said no such thing; you're twisting my words in order to sidetrack the argument. You didn't say a single thing about the rest of my post; that only proves that you're interested in attacking America, not discussing the issues. I'm not playing your game.

Can you please point out to me where I said you said that?

Lets see an intel operative in a vehicle moving up to a military checkpoint in an occupied country where there have been multiple terrorist attacks on such checkpoints. Under most conditions any smart operative would approach at a slow rate and identify themselves. But this vehicle approached at a high speed was it any real surprise that they were fired on? Tell me that you wouldn't fire on someone threatening you and your friends.

Lets see an intel operative in a vehicle moving up to a military checkpoint in an occupied country where there have been multiple terrorist attacks on such checkpoints. Under most conditions any smart operative would approach at a slow rate and identify themselves. But this vehicle approached at a high speed was it any real surprise that they were fired on? Tell me that you wouldn't fire on someone threatening you and your friends.
Then you tell me how they injured all occupants of the car, in addition to killing some one, by firing into the engine block to stop the car?

Then you tell me how they injured all occupants of the car, in addition to killing some one, by firing into the engine block to stop the car?
Because the type of machine gun they used probably bounced as they fired it. It's also not as easy as you'd like to think to shoot a moving vehicle at distance, as this was. And, if it was a heavy machine gun, I'd suspect that the bullets were able to punch through the engine block, or maybe not hit the engine, or a million other reasons.

Eyewitness from the car driver reported that the americans made a light signal and 5 seconds after opened the fire.
It turned out that the checkpoint was not informed about the car.
What happened is a failure to communicate, at least that's the US version.
What they did not say is that they shoot with .50 MGs and not on the engine like they stated but to kill.
You don't kill people inside an armoured car with an M16.
If they fired with a .50 on an armoured car at the windows with the intent to kill everyone in the car would be sives. For those in the vehicle to be hit with schapnel then .50 caliber rounds would have to be ricochetes off of solid armour. Anyone with any weapons knowledge would know this. .50's are also mounted on most APC's as well as some HUMMVEE's so several soldiers would have no weapon but the one they would be manning at all times in said vehicles. If it was a longstanding and important checkpoint it might even have it's own mounted .50, unlikely but possible.

Then you tell me how they injured all occupants of the car, in addition to killing some one, by firing into the engine block to stop the car?
Well I didn't address this at the least in this post but I have in my 2nd one. I was talking about the reason they were shot at not anything about how.

So a left or neutral source is wrong and a rightwing source like most US channels or extremist source like FOX is OK?
A left wing journalist can be a very good and unbiased one as long as he informes correctly. Perhaps you have a problem with that source because it brings out things that you want to cover (torturing, killings and now attacks on journalists).

Wow, that is biased.
Mekdemia was saying that the only truely unbiased opinion is the one that is given neutrally despite your personal beliefs, even if that means going against your personal beliefs. So you as a leftist can stop trying to compare yourself to the neutrals and saying that the rights are all wrong and pig-headed doesn't fly.

So a left or neutral source is wrong and a rightwing source like most US channels or extremist source like FOX is OK?
A left wing journalist can be a very good and unbiased one as long as he informes correctly. Perhaps you have a problem with that source because it brings out things that you want to cover (torturing, killings and now attacks on journalists).

Wow, way to totally misrepresent everything I said. The point I made, that Omega seems to pick up on, is that if you allow your personal beliefs to shade how you report the news, you are not a neutral or unbiased source, as an earlier poster had called her (Sgrena). I actually think that FOX needs to work on the same thing, because they are biased as well. I'm just saying don't misrepresent her as this paragon of journalistic objectivity.

Oh, and guys, we've now run over this whole machine gun/fast moving car thing about ten times. Read the thread, then say something new. Alright?

According to her account of the incident on NPR, she was on the floorboard of the car.

I find it hard for her to witness anything from that position.

In addition, the Italian intel officer was laying on top of her (ostensibly to protect her), and she heard a groan in the darkness after he was hit.

He was hit once, in the temple, and instantly killed. If we omit the fact that he also was down below the windows and out of sight, it might sound like he was intentionally shot there - that somehow the Americans had a sinister plot to kill him.

But no, no one could see him - the bullets just zipped through the car and he was unlucky.

I have the feeling that this was all a stupid mistake. Nothing sinister here, ok?

We need to hear more news like that, because it looks like some people don't know how much war sucks. I hope in the long run it will open their eyes.

That Italian intelligence agent is the type of man I want to be my bodyguard if I ever need one. Faithful to his service. It's a pity he died.

The US didn't need this incident to get more people fix their mess. It looks like the three Crusaders will be left at the end.

God bless him.

No, I'm sure the outright bombing of the Chinese embassy was a complete accident in Bosnia.. :rolleyes:

That was an accident Stephistan. Errant missiles happen. No technology is perfect. Learn more about the military Stephistan as well as countries. It was Serbia. :rolleyes:

As for this incident. If the car just slowed down, they wouldn't have gotten shot at. I feel bad that an Italian military intelligence (Oxymoron) offficer last his life but then again, if he just followed the signals of the US Soldiers, then it wouldn't have happened.

We'll have to wait for the investigation to end.

The italian hostage is a journalist from Il Manifesto...

Could be a Rosenberg remember? Kill the commie :(

I hope that Berlusconi can take some action about the entire thing and not be the usual Bush's pet

Berlusconi already stated that he keeping his troops in Iraq till they are no longer needed. He isn't the Prime Minister of Spain.

We'll never know, so I say assume it's an accident, forgive, and move on.

I agree whole heartedly!

I'm from the US. My wife is Japanese. By nuking Japan we saved millions of Japanese lives. It was a shitty choice to have to make but it was the only good thing Truman ever did.

Yep! People keep forgetting just what the projected casualties were for both sides in an invasion of Japan. I would've supported Truman in this decision though I hope nukes aren't used again.

Now, for the love of god kids, keep decent tone!

Wheter or not you have a diffrent point of view, the pie throwing makes absolutly no sense what so ever, even in that case, I must give in to the "Anti amarican" theme running here.

Though without trying to insult anyone in the forum (Please read the last line twice...)

This extreme hate towards the amarican government I assume must come from this persistent policing of the world, Plus the consitent double morality they so happily show forth at any given chance, example: We have, what we belive to be firm evidence, that Iran is producing Nuculear weaponry: End of quote...(Hehe, nuculear :D )

And so on and so on, there could be many reasons for why he's putting down the states, or maby as you say it, he's simply demented, though I strongly doubt it, since I belive much the same as he, that many of the accidents caused by USA, seem to be of great advantage the them.

Now, for the love of god kids, keep decent tone!

Wheter or not you have a diffrent point of view, the pie throwing makes absolutly no sense what so ever, even in that case, I must give in to the "Anti amarican" theme running here.

Though without trying to insult anyone in the forum (Please read the last line twice...)

This extreme hate towards the amarican government I assume must come from this persistent policing of the world, Plus the consitent double morality they so happily show forth at any given chance, example: We have, what we belive to be firm evidence, that Iran is producing Nuculear weaponry: End of quote...(Hehe, nuculear :D )

And so on and so on, there could be many reasons for why he's putting down the states, or maby as you say it, he's simply demented, though I strongly doubt it, since I belive much the same as he, that many of the accidents caused by USA, seem to be of great advantage the them.

Bush should find those wepans of miss distruction first :D

Making war for peace is a little like fucking for virginity... :headbang:

Oh then I guess WWI was to END all wars? World War two to bring peace and stability to the world again?

Get off of it Stephistan!

Berlusconi already stated that he keeping his troops in Iraq till they are no longer needed. He isn't the Prime Minister of Spain.

This is the problem. Simply Zapatero had known which was the people's choice. What Silvio didn't make.

We need to hear more news like that, because it looks like some people don't know how much war sucks. I hope in the long run it will open their eyes.

Indeed. One might consider that witnesses say the vehicle approached the American checkpoint at a high rate of speed.

Driving towards a US checkpoint at a high rate of speed = You Get Shot.

Of course, we can boil this down to something simpler.

People got hurt. In a war zone. The Italian intel officer knew the job was dangerous when he took it. Kudos to him.

Yes, war sucks, but you have to ask what you're getting in return.

That bastion of US Democratic Party speech, the Sunday New York Times, now quotes opposition parties in Arab countries as saying that the Iraq invasion is a good thing. Because it's shocking the festering wound that is dictatorship.

Yes, people in war have the nasty habit of dying. Are you saying that it's not worth it?

That journalist never had to go to Iraq. And the intel officer was well aware of the risks. I really have a problem with reporters who believe that they should have some special bulletproof status that shields them from all harm in a war.

Ernie Pyle is probably laughing at her right now.

This is the problem. Simply Zapatero had known which was the people's choice. What Silvio didn't make.

It made Spain look like cowards. It gave the Terrorists a victory.

...for the investigation ...
Who is doing the investigation?

Indeed. One might consider that witnesses say the vehicle approached the American checkpoint at a high rate of speed.

Driving towards a US checkpoint at a high rate of speed = You Get Shot.

Of course, we can boil this down to something simpler.

People got hurt. In a war zone. The Italian intel officer knew the job was dangerous when he took it. Kudos to him.

Yes, war sucks, but you have to ask what you're getting in return.

That bastion of US Democratic Party speech, the Sunday New York Times, now quotes opposition parties in Arab countries as saying that the Iraq invasion is a good thing. Because it's shocking the festering wound that is dictatorship.

Yes, people in war have the nasty habit of dying. Are you saying that it's not worth it?

That journalist never had to go to Iraq. And the intel officer was well aware of the risks. I really have a problem with reporters who believe that they should have some special bulletproof status that shields them from all harm in a war.

Ernie Pyle is probably laughing at her right now.

Actually the car went to 50-60 Km/h. And about that Giuliana never ha to go to Iraq, this is wrong. I think that this type of journalist is a good example of counter-information againts the pro-US propaganda. As ever, the truth is in the middle.

It made Spain look like cowards. It gave the Terrorists a victory.

What a strange thing: when someone thinks himself and take different position from US, he will be a terrorists friend.

Actually the car went to 50-60 Km/h. And about that Giuliana never ha to go to Iraq, this is wrong. I think that this type of journalist is a good example of counter-information againts the pro-US propaganda. As ever, the truth is in the middle.
No one forced her to go.
She went of her own accord.
Journalists aren't bulletproof.
It's rather hard to identify a journalist if she's laying on the floorboard of a car.

If you don't stop when they signal you to stop at a checkpoint, they have orders to open fire.

Many US troops were killed by car bombers who didn't stop - especially when the US troops didn't open fire right away.

50-60 kph is too fast at a checkpoint. I'm speaking from personal experience.

the more I hear about this story, the more suspicious I get.

It could very well be so that this communist wench tried to set US military up to make them look bad. Because as you know, communists like totalitarian government where all that do not toe the party line would be killed by them. They don't like it that the US doesn't sign up for their communist international court and that we refuse to sign our sovereignty over to 3rd rate dictatorships and they hate it that we didn't fall for their Kyoto scam.

It turns out they deliberately tried to run the checkpoint and blatantly ignored warning signals. Communists are professional liars so her story doesn't check out at all. Any sane soldier would have fired upon a car coming in at relatively high speed. And the someone that got killed had no business being there in the first place, what was he doing there, giving the "kidnappers" ransom money so they could buy more weapons?

US bashers, I pity you.

No one forced her to go.
She went of her own accord.
Journalists aren't bulletproof.
It's rather hard to identify a journalist if she's laying on the floorboard of a car.

If you don't stop when they signal you to stop at a checkpoint, they have orders to open fire.

Many US troops were killed by car bombers who didn't stop - especially when the US troops didn't open fire right away.

50-60 kph is too fast at a checkpoint. I'm speaking from personal experience.

It seems that they have a passpartout (sorry, I'm italian, so I don't known the right word for the document), released by an American official. IMHO this change the view, no? But only the inspection will be the truth, or a part of it.

Who is doing the investigation?The Italian military?
NATO?
Interpol?
the UN?
the WarCrimes Tribunal?
the World Court?

Apparently the Italians gave the terrorists 8 million dollars through an intermediary in Abu Dhabi (according to National Public Radio).

But only the inspection will be the truth.
you are expecting the Truth? .....really?

WOW.

This is the problem. Simply Zapatero had known which was the people's choice. What Silvio didn't make.


listening to the 'majority' does not leadership constitute.

Leaders sometimes must take unpopular measures. Aznar did that, Zapatero decided to be a coward and run.

If we had listened to the majority on september 12 2001 the Middle East would be a smouldering heap of ruins by now.

You see? We get attacked, we do something about it.

Europeans get attacked, they cower and retreat and give the terrorists moral victory. You people would try to call bin Laden if he would please come sit around the campfire with you to sing Kumbayah. :rolleyes:

Italian judges had opened the inspection. And the voice is for 1M$, not 8. BTW, it's a life less important than this money? :confused:

I hope no one's mentioned this already (haven't read the whole thread) but please remember that a definition of 'Normal Speed' in Italy may differ hugely to other countries definitions. If you're not going 80mph through a built up area in Italy, you get pulled over by the polizia

Italian judges had opened the inspection. And the voice is for 1M$, not 8. BTW, it's a life less important than this money? :confused:

you never negotiate with terrorists, PERIOD!

now they can buy more weapons to commit terror against the liberators, shame on them :mad:

If we had listened to the majority on september 12 2001 the Middle East would be a smouldering heap of ruins by now.The majority of what?

The majority of what?

not the majority of cowering Euros that is for sure :rolleyes:

listening to the 'majority' does not leadership constitute.

Leaders sometimes must take unpopular measures. Aznar did that, Zapatero decided to be a coward and run.

If we had listened to the majority on september 12 2001 the Middle East would be a smouldering heap of ruins by now.

You see? We get attacked, we do something about it.

Europeans get attacked, they cower and retreat and give the terrorists moral victory. You people would try to call bin Laden if he would please come sit around the campfire with you to sing Kumbayah. :rolleyes:

Actually, Zapatero only made good the promises that he made BEFORE THE MARCH 11TH of taking Spanish troops out of Iraq. Get your facts straight.

And before you call the Spaniards cowards, try to remember that they are having terrorist attacks on their soil for 30 years (ETA anyone?).

you never negotiate with terrorists, PERIOD!
http://www.entremundos.org/Newspaper/Archive/Issue6/Images/reagan-ears2_big.jpg

;)

listening to the 'majority' does not leadership constitute.

Leaders sometimes must take unpopular measures.

Like Guantanamo, war in Iraq, Vietnam, Chile...

not the majority of cowering Euros that is for sure :rolleyes:
just answer the question.

The US are just trigger happy:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/07/bulgaria.iraq/index.html


i read something a while ago, seems that Soldiers of other nationalities dont like to go into US controled areas, they are afraid the US will shoot them lol.

just answer the question.

the majority of Americans

LMAO. Have you seen how Italians drive?

Well every Italian city looks like its holding qualifiers for a Blind Car Parking Competition... :D

At least italians don't mean to hit you, unlike the french who aim for you when you cross the street... :(

you are expecting the Truth? .....really?

WOW.

Obviusly no. The italian gov will not say the truth, because it is a pet of US. But I hope also that Giuliana doesn't said the truth, because it will be horrible. Then, poor citizens will not known what is the truth, like more time in this times.

Italian judges had opened the inspection. And the voice is for 1M$, not 8. BTW, it's a life less important than this money? :confused:

Long experience by the Israelis and others notes that if you negotiate with terrorists, they will commit more acts than if you just shot them when you found them.

Negotiating with terrorists and paying ransom is a really stupid idea.

The following are various statements made by Sgrena.


From BBC interview here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm) :
We were on our way to the airport when the tanks started to strike against us and he tried to cover me and he was shot. He died and, me, I was safe but he was dead.

From Guardian article: here (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1431436,00.html)
Sgrena told colleagues the vehicle was not travelling fast and had already passed several checkpoints on its way to the airport. The Americans shone a flashlight at the car and then fired between 300 and 400 bullets at if from an armoured vehicle. Rather than calling immediately for assistance for the wounded Italians, the soldiers’ first move was to confiscate their weapons and mobile phones and they were prevented from resuming contact with Rome for more than an hour.

From LA Times article here (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-sgrena6mar06,0,3970474.story?coll=la-home-world)
But Sgrena told Italian state television Saturday that her car “was not going especially fast for a situation of that type.” She also said her group had been fired on by an American patrol and not at a checkpoint.

And finally, in a article titled in true communist style "My Truth", a CNN translation of which can be found here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/)
she has this wonderful tidbit to say: The car kept on the road, going under an underpass full of puddles and almost losing control to avoid them. We all incredibly laughed. It was liberating. Losing control of the car in a street full of water in Baghdad and maybe wind up in a bad car accident after all I had been through would really be a tale I would not be able to tell.


Now, can anyone point out any discrepancies in what she says. You will be graded on your efforts.

Well every Italian city looks like its holding qualifiers for a Blind Car Parking Competition... :D

At least italians don't mean to hit you, unlike the french who aim for you when you cross the street... :(

Our type of guide is due:
1) we have the greatest ratio cars/area.
2) we have not automatic change(?) in our cars. Then, you must have more responsability in the guide
3) we have thinner streets than you. Ours are large about 6-7 meters, but there are more that are thinner.
4) we don't like to waste time in guide. If I want to go in a place, I want to be there in the less time possible.

Long experience by the Israelis and others notes that if you negotiate with terrorists, they will commit more acts than if you just shot them when you found them.

Negotiating with terrorists and paying ransom is a really stupid idea.

If kill civilians and destroy homes is negotiate, WOW! It seems that Camp David negotiate and Road map have more results that Israeli classical type of negotiation.

the majority of Americans
FIRST, the Americans are less than 5% of the World...whenever they invade and bomb...they are doing it like Dictators...They are a Minority imposing their will on the majority.
SECOND, link me a poll that says "a majority" of Americans ever wanted the Middle East to be a "smouldering heap of ruins"

It makes sense to confiscate weapons and cell phones until someone's identity is clearly and fully established.

Cell phones are the weapon of choice used to detonate explosives remotely.

And weapons - well that's obvious.

The story is written in such a way as to ascribe some sinister meaning behind the confiscation of weapons and cell phones. Typical.

Oh, and it's interesting that in one line, they're driving fast, and in the other, driving slow. And how they claim that no on signaled to them, but they were signaled by a flashlight.

Nice discrepancies. It sounds like they were stupid in a war zone, and got their asses shot off.

FIRST, the Americans are less than 5% of the World...whenever they invade and bomb...they are doing it like Dictators...They are a Minority imposing their will on the majority.
SECOND, link me a poll that says "a majority" of Americans ever wanted the Middle East to be a "smouldering heap of ruins"

FIRST, al-Qaeda is less than a thousandth of 1 percent of the World, but they do whatever they want and kill whoever they want without Europeans criticizing them. They are a minority imposing their will on the majority.

SECOND, if you had polled people here right after 9-11, it would have been close to 90 percent.

The following are various statements made by Sgrena.


From BBC interview here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4324251.stm) :


From Guardian article: here (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1431436,00.html)


From LA Times article here (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-sgrena6mar06,0,3970474.story?coll=la-home-world)


And finally, in a article titled in true communist style "My Truth", a CNN translation of which can be found here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/03/06/il.manifesto/)
she has this wonderful tidbit to say:


Now, can anyone point out any discrepancies in what she says. You will be graded on your efforts.

Enlighten us!



Long experience by the Israelis and others notes that if you negotiate with terrorists, they will commit more acts than if you just shot them when you found them.

Negotiating with terrorists and paying ransom is a really stupid idea.

Well, it is a stupid idea, in the American perspective, since the money will most likely be used to kill americans. But in the Italian perspective, it worked well, they released the hostage.

Its shitty when you don't give a shit about the other countrie's needs, isnt it?

Italian judges had opened the inspection. And the voice is for 1M$, not 8. BTW, it's a life less important than this money? :confused:
Ah, now what about the lives of Iraqis that will be snuffed out when that money is translated into weapons and IED's?

FIRST, the Americans are less than 5% of the World...whenever they invade and bomb...they are doing it like Dictators...They are a Minority imposing their will on the majority.
SECOND, link me a poll that says "a majority" of Americans ever wanted the Middle East to be a "smouldering heap of ruins"

what the f*** is peoples obsession with what other nations think? we don't care what tinpot dictatorships think! we don't care what corrupt weasels like Chirac think! we don't care what the European socialist Union thinks.

You should have been online the evening of 9/11 or the morning of 9/12.

Nice discrepancies. It sounds like they were stupid in a war zone, and got their asses shot off.

Have you ever thinked that this are the word from a person that was 1 month an hostage in the hands of terrorist and after one that was shoot by gatling, see a man died in it's hands and then had have 2 operations? Still, she was assaulted by medias.

Our type of guide is due:
1) we have the greatest ratio cars/area.
2) we have not automatic change(?) in our cars. Then, you must have more responsability in the guide
3) we have thinner streets than you. Ours are large about 6-7 meters, but there are more that are thinner.
4) we don't like to waste time in guide. If I want to go in a place, I want to be there in the less time possible.


Don't worry mate, i'm not from the US, i know what you are on about.

1) Yeah i know, that and mopeds!

2) Don't worry manual isn't that hard!

3) Thinner streets than the UK? I think they about the same to be honest!

4) :D :D :D Damn right!

Enlighten us!
Well, it is a stupid idea, in the American perspective, since the money will most likely be used to kill americans. But in the Italian perspective, it worked well, they released the hostage.


I'll enlighten you.

How many Americans have the terrorists kidnapped recently, since they know that the US will not negotiate with them?

How many foreigners have been kidnapped recently, since they know that the foreigners WILL negotiate with them?

The last time a US soldier was kidnapped and held? Can you name it? I do believe it was a GI Joe doll that they kidnapped - so lame.

Yeah, it's shitty when you care so little about further kidnappings of your own people that you negotiate for their release.

3) Thinner streets than the UK? I think they about the same to be honest!


There are steets and streets. In Historical center, guide is a problem. Also becuase there are more one way sign than a normal person can see in a life in US, I think.

Abd about UK, how could I say something to one that still continue to guide to the wrong side of the street? :p

Who is doing the investigation?

Probably the US and Italy!

I'll enlighten you.

How many Americans have the terrorists kidnapped recently, since they know that the US will not negotiate with them?

How many foreigners have been kidnapped recently, since they know that the foreigners WILL negotiate with them?

The last time a US soldier was kidnapped and held? Can you name it? I do believe it was a GI Joe doll that they kidnapped - so lame.

Yeah, it's shitty when you care so little about further kidnappings of your own people that you negotiate for their release.

I was asking to bookworms..

Still:

Americans don't get kidnapped because they all cower in the green zone, too heavily defended to get in and kidnap someone (they did kidnap and decapitate some guys a while back)

Foreigners that get kidnaped are either field workers from poor countries such as china, that are employed in the most hazardous areas. You dont have many Americans running in trucks around.. well, you do, some even got kidnaped like another guy a while back. And offcourse, lots of those coward european journalists get kidnaped too! The damn cowards, how dare they go into a war zone to tell the truth!

US soldiers never got kidnaped. They generally get killed or maimed.

And the thing is.. Europeans care less and less about the USA.. you are just going to get ditched there. Hell, you are so powerfull, you can take it, right? :D

What a strange thing: when someone thinks himself and take different position from US, he will be a terrorists friend.

I didn't say he was a terrorist friend Freedonia! I said by pulling his troops out after a terrorist attack, made him look like a coward and it gave the terrorists a victory. Learn to comprehend.

There are steets and streets. In Historical center, guide is a problem. Also becuase there are more one way sign than a normal person can see in a life in US, I think.

Very true, we have the same here...bloody one way systems!


Abd about UK, how could I say something to one that still continue to guide to the wrong side of the street? :p

Ahem, I would like to remind you that you only switched the sides you travelled on after getting conquered by the french ;) :D

The Italian military?

Yes as well as the US Military

NATO?

nope

Interpol?

Civilian so no

the UN?

Why should they investigate? They have to investigate themselves first

the WarCrimes Tribunal?

Nope!

the World Court?

and no.

Apparently the Italians gave the terrorists 8 million dollars through an intermediary in Abu Dhabi (according to National Public Radio).

Now that's interesting. Can I have a link for it?

FIRST, al-Qaeda is less than a thousandth of 1 percent of the World, but they do whatever they want and kill whoever they want without Europeans criticizing them. They are a minority imposing their will on the majority.AQ never claimed to be a Democracy driven Organization, AQ never said "we are killing and Torturing in order to spread Democracy"

SECOND, if you had polled people here right after 9-11, it would have been close to 90 percent.Am I good looking? if you had polled people here right after 7-11, it would have been close to 90 percent.[/sarcasm]

I would show you the Poll...but i lost the link ;)

You should have been online the evening of 9/11 or the morning of 9/12.I was.

Americans don't get kidnapped because they all cower in the green zone, too heavily defended to get in and kidnap someone (they did kidnap and decapitate some guys a while back)

No, they are patrolling the streets and manning checkpoints and running convoys across the country. As are US contractors - unarmed contractors driving trucks. Right now, thousands of Marines are sweeping through the western part of Iraq. Why aren't the insurgents kidnapping some of them? Aside from the fact that directly confronting US troops with your own insurgents is a one way ticket to getting killed - insurgents are reduced to random bombings (mostly of their own people) and kidnapping GI Joe dolls.

As a fighting force, the insurgents are near dead as a political force - and have no ability to mount substantial offensive operations. That is, they cannot, as the Viet Cong did, mass several hundred fighters in a location, engage US troops, kill large numbers of US troops, and fade back into hiding. The insurgents in Iraq, by any comparison to a successful insurgency, are impotent.

The number of US soldiers kidnapped is low, and the number of US contractors is low, because it doesn't pay to kidnap one. The US doesn't pay ransom and they don't negotiate.

Go ahead - pay for a release. Watch the next Italian get kidnapped.

Probably the US and Italy!
"Probably" is not good enough around here.

No, they are patrolling the streets and manning checkpoints and running convoys across the country. As are US contractors - unarmed contractors driving trucks. Right now, thousands of Marines are sweeping through the western part of Iraq. Why aren't the insurgents kidnapping some of them? Aside from the fact that directly confronting US troops with your own insurgents is a one way ticket to getting killed - insurgents are reduced to random bombings (mostly of their own people) and kidnapping GI Joe dolls.

As a fighting force, the insurgents are near dead as a political force - and have no ability to mount substantial offensive operations. That is, they cannot, as the Viet Cong did, mass several hundred fighters in a location, engage US troops, kill large numbers of US troops, and fade back into hiding. The insurgents in Iraq, by any comparison to a successful insurgency, are impotent.

The number of US soldiers kidnapped is low, and the number of US contractors is low, because it doesn't pay to kidnap one. The US doesn't pay ransom and they don't negotiate.

Go ahead - pay for a release. Watch the next Italian get kidnapped.

Curiously, that impotent fighting force managed to kill 1500 and wound 11000 of your forces in two years, more than in the two first years in Vietnam. Well, comparing Vietnam to Iraq is quite dumb, though. Vietnam is 5000km east, it got way too much trees.. nahh. Compare Iraq to Libano. Watch how the Israelis fared there.

You just answered your own question of why GI's dont get kidnaped: Terrorists will go after the easy targets, the civilians, duhh

And next time an Italian gets kidnapped.. the Italians will pay another ransom. With luck, they wont get killed by the Americans. So what? Again, the money will be used to fund bombs against the Americans. If your country never cared about other nations opinion's on Iraq, why should the other nations make your life easier?

And next time an Italian gets kidnapped.. the Italians will pay another ransom. With luck, they wont get killed by the Americans. So what? Again, the money will be used to fund bombs against the Americans. If your country never cared about other nations opinion's on Iraq, why should the other nations make your life easier?

if they do that, I hope they do get killed, those that negotiate with the terrorists and give them money to get certain things done are our enemies and deserve nothing less than the utmost contempt.

"Probably" is not good enough around here.

They both are investigating. I do know that the US is investigating the incident. Italy is involved so I'm pretty positive that they are investigating too.

what the f*** is peoples obsession with what other nations think? we don't care what tinpot dictatorships think! we don't care what corrupt weasels like Chirac think! we don't care what the European socialist Union thinks.

I don't think we have to be told anything by someone as opposing to democracy as you are, judged by your nickname. As I see it futile to discuss it, I will not press the matter further, although my passport should be more than enough proof that I have all the right to be offended by some neonazi such as you.

In any event, this incident ist unfortunate. Whether it is an accident or not is pretty much lost to interpretation of the reports, but my point is that the voices saying there's something fishy won't stop. The US have chosen to engage themselves worldwide, for whatever reason is not up to me to judge. With more getting done, more is getting done wrong; that is the nature of our actions, as long as we live we err.

Errors happen, we can only accept them and try not to repeat them. Only those are fools who don't learn from the past (by coincidence, this is also directed at HR ...).

Curiously, that impotent fighting force managed to kill 1500 and wound 11000 of your forces in two years, more than in the two first years in Vietnam. Well, comparing Vietnam to Iraq is quite dumb, though. Vietnam is 5000km east, it got way too much trees.. nahh. Compare Iraq to Libano. Watch how the Israelis fared there.


The Viet Cong were much more effective - killing 6111 US soldiers per year on average.

The Iraqi insurgents, by comparison, are not doing very well.

It's not dumb to compare them. The Iraqis are in an urban environment.

Let's compare apples to apples, shall we?

Israel fought Hezbollah in an urban environment for seven years. For every one Hezbollah terrorist killed, the Israelis lost 10 dead.

Not very good, eh? Hezbollah never had any members surrender in seven years of fighting.

When the US went through Fallujah, they did not outnumber the insurgents in the city. Despite this, the insurgents lost over 2000 dead, several hundred surrendered, and several hundred captured by wounding. The US lost around 70 dead.

With the Israeli-to-Hezbollah ratio (and Israelis are considered good soldiers), we have a 10-to-1 ratio - the Israelis took their lumps.

With the US to Iraqi Insurgent ratio, we have a 1 to 28 ratio. The insurgents are having their asses handed to them.

Now that they know that, they don't dare make direct attacks anymore. Make the mistake of gathering in a place and attacking US troops, and you're quickly on the way to dying.

The big advantage is not terrain. It's advanced body armor. The US body armor makes it very, very difficult to kill a US soldier with small arms fire (the chest and back are rifle proof). The US soldier can see in the dark.

During Vietnam, the insurgents could "hug the enemy" - get so close to US forces that they could not call in artillery or air strikes to help. But that's not a viable tactic today - hug the US forces, and for every US troop you kill, you'll lose 28 of your own men because you are not bulletproof, but the US troops are nearly so. Try and stand back behind cover and they call in the AC-130, which can put an artillery shell right into your lap on the first shot.

It has become much, much, much harder to be an insurgent. Urban terrain is more advantageous than the jungle. But it's not enough - not when fighting US troops.

1991,

Parachuted into an airbase in a foreign country. (late night)

Secured Airbase

Blockaded all entrances to base

Setup secure fire points at blockades

Many hours nothing happened

Vovlo coming down road fast

Swerves around 1 set of blockades.

Team fires rounds into air to warn off

Vehicle goes around second blockade (still speeding)

Fire LAW into vehicle

Vehicle stoped.

Discovered Volvo was filled with a family.


I live with this every day.

I know I did what I had to and what was right in the situation, I could not know who was inside and what their intentions were and my job was to keep the base secure. I just wish that the car had been filled with bad guys, then I would not have the guilt I live with.

It's quite obvious that the Italian woman and her terrorist./communist handlers set this up. It's ham-handed attempt to smear the USA, which the lefties are falling for hook line and sinker. How many different stories can she concoct about the same incident?