NationStates Jolt Archive

No, that doesn't mean native anime...native spiritualist if you will.

Well, you can't. At least, that's my take on it...I mean, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Jain or Buddhist, but you can't convert to Native Animism and be taken seriously by natives...why is that I wonder?

Is it because aboriginal spirituality is so tied up with our culture? Yet, I myself am not an animist...and many natives are Christians. Perhaps a religion needs to be more organised, or valued widely for one to convert to it and be accepted as such?

Any thoughts on this? It started out kind of as a joke, but I'm actually wondering about this now...

Can you marry into it though?

Hell, you can found a religious organization of your own if you want to. That's what I've been considering. The only problem is that all kinds of wackos want to join in also.

Can you marry into it though?
Hmmmm, tough one. You can be accepted as a native by a native community even if you aren't native yourself...but that usually only happens if you are the adopted child of a native family, or you have developed extraordinarily close ties with a native community outside of family. If you marry a native, that does not make you a native, nor does it guarantee you acceptance as such down the road. So no, I don't think you could marry into our spirituality either...you could respect it, and know about it, but you wouldn't be let in on certain things unless, as I said, you were 'adopted' by a native community.

No, that doesn't mean native anime...native spiritualist if you will.

Well, you can't. At least, that's my take on it...I mean, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Jain or Buddhist, but you can't convert to Native Animism and be taken seriously by natives...why is that I wonder?

Is it because aboriginal spirituality is so tied up with our culture? Yet, I myself am not an animist...and many natives are Christians. Perhaps a religion needs to be more organised, or valued widely for one to convert to it and be accepted as such?

Any thoughts on this? It started out kind of as a joke, but I'm actually wondering about this now...
It seems to me that Native spiritualtiy lacks the "evangelism" meme, and instead substitutes memes that strive to maintain a separation between the in-group and the rest of the human species. Not a really good recipie for a long-lasting religion.

Hell, you can found a religious organization of your own if you want to. That's what I've been considering. The only problem is that all kinds of wackos want to join in also.
Yup...you could even found a "native animist" church...but it wouldn't be accepted by natives, so could it really be a NATIVE church? I think you'd just have to have it be an animist church.

You could always found the "church of the holy tax loophole".

It seems to me that Native spiritualtiy lacks the "evangelism" meme, and instead substitutes memes that strive to maintain a separation between the in-group and the rest of the human species. Not a really good recipie for a long-lasting religion.
I think it is a particular insular religion, and probably so because aboriginal groups fear losing more of their culture than they already have. Also, if you go around letting everyone in on your rituals or beliefs, they tend to take and 'romanticise' the ones they like, and remove any real meaning from them. One example is dream catchers. Sigh.

I kind of feel that unless we keep it to itself, it will become meaningless, and will be subsumed by mainstream culture. I can't explain it well yet, but that is the general feeling I have about why we don't let outsiders into our belief system.

Also, since most of our rituals and beliefs center around nature and our particular habitat, they don't really transfer well to other areas. A Quiche Indian practicing her animism in Canada would have to make some real changes...just as my people would if they even went up to the Arctic...

Hmmmm, tough one. You can be accepted as a native by a native community even if you aren't native yourself...but that usually only happens if you are the adopted child of a native family, or you have developed extraordinarily close ties with a native community outside of family. If you marry a native, that does not make you a native, nor does it guarantee you acceptance as such down the road. So no, I don't think you could marry into our spirituality either...you could respect it, and know about it, but you wouldn't be let in on certain things unless, as I said, you were 'adopted' by a native community.

How about if you develop close ties - for whatever reason - and end up marrying into the community and live within it closely. Isn't it possible that eventually you could be 'adopted' in after a long enough period when you had become a sincere member.

The reason I ask is because the same thing sometimes happens with the Amish. The Amish sometimes employ non-amish on their farms and in their businesses and over a period of years it is not unknown for someone to become accepted and eventually marry into the local congregation. On the other hand, if you just show up and ask to join they will definitely send you away.

I think it is a particular insular religion, and probably so because aboriginal groups fear losing more of their culture than they already have. Also, if you go around letting everyone in on your rituals or beliefs, they tend to take and 'romanticise' the ones they like, and remove any real meaning from them. One example is dream catchers. Sigh.

I kind of feel that unless we keep it to itself, it will become meaningless, and will be subsumed by mainstream culture. I can't explain it well yet, but that is the general feeling I have about why we don't let outsiders into our belief system.
That's one of the risks you run if you try to recruit new members. People change the religion around to make it their own. Look at all the different versions of Christianity. If you refuse to recruit new members though, you run a real risk of the religion disappearing somewhere down the road.

Well, you can't. At least, that's my take on it...I mean, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Jain or Buddhist, but you can't convert to Native Animism and be taken seriously by natives...why is that I wonder?


Probably shouldn't include Buddhism. You don't "convert" to Buddhism, you simply say, "I'm Buddhist" and *poof* you are. :)

I dunno ... my tribe has always been very open and accepting. We have a long history of embracing outside cultures to live amongst our own.

As for the religion, well, that's a tough one. My people have always held that a true teacher is not someone who tries to explain his vision to you, but rather invites you to stand next to him and see it for yourself.

I guess what would make conversion difficult is the fact that my tribe has no conversion ceremony. You simply do, or do not, believe the myths and tales. You either revere and help take care of nature, or you don't. If you choose to believe and help be a caretaker, then you are - regardless of whatever else you may be.

A Christian, Muslim, or practising Jew can be a part of my tribe's vision without sacrificing their own.

How about if you develop close ties - for whatever reason - and end up marrying into the community and live within it closely. Isn't it possible that eventually you could be 'adopted' in after a long enough period when you had become a sincere member.


Yes, it is possible, and does happen. My band has some black members, a chinese member and a few white members. They were all either adopted by, married into or living with my people. It was a slow process though. We tend to be very open to newcomers, but we also hold back on certain things. It takes a fair amount of time to become one of us, and not everyone wants to...it bind you as well. It isn't a one-way street...you have responsibilities to the community once you join it.

That's one of the risks you run if you try to recruit new members. People change the religion around to make it their own. Look at all the different versions of Christianity. If you refuse to recruit new members though, you run a real risk of the religion disappearing somewhere down the road.
The only way it will disappear is if we disappear...and if it is taken from us or spread out (so the feeling is), we will disappear that much faster.

Probably shouldn't include Buddhism. You don't "convert" to Buddhism, you simply say, "I'm Buddhist" and *poof* you are. :)


Additionally, the mormoms try and make you mormon after you are dead

Good luck with that one guys.

The only way it will disappear is if we disappear...and if it is taken from us or spread out (so the feeling is), we will disappear that much faster.
Maybe so, you never know what will happen. Perhaps a higher percentage will convert from your religion to other religions in the future. Perhaps people in your religion will start having fewer kids. If you don't bring in new members you'll start to see the religion shrink.

I guess what would make conversion difficult is the fact that my tribe has no conversion ceremony. You simply do, or do not, believe the myths and tales. You either revere and help take care of nature, or you don't. If you choose to believe and help be a caretaker, then you are - regardless of whatever else you may be.

A Christian, Muslim, or practising Jew can be a part of my tribe's vision without sacrificing their own.
Our's too...many of my people are not completely animistic...they encorporate Christianity into their belief systems too. However, certain things are kept for the elders or the wise ones. You can walk up to a Christian and get a description of some basic forms of worship...you can do that to us too, but you can't petition to join us without making some serious ties to us. You can become a Christian and THEN get those ties. Not so with natives.

Again, I think it has something to do with the fundamental relationship our spirituality has with our environment. You can be a Christian anywhere...and I could be (if I were) a native animist anywhere, but my rituals would be changed because of the change in flora and fauna and my ties would forever be rooted in the place where my people originated. Every native group is so different in terms of their practices of animism, yet we do have a fairly common base of beliefs...perhaps you should look at natives as many thousands of different sects of the same religion?

Maybe so, you never know what will happen. Perhaps a higher percentage will convert from your religion to other religions in the future. Perhaps people in your religion will start having fewer kids. If you don't bring in new members you'll start to see the religion shrink.
We don't really care if our religion is spread...perhaps that is another difference. We accept many truths as valid, and can be other religions too and still be native...I think our animism is more tied up in our cultural identity than other religions. You can be an animist, but you won't be a native...and without that fundamental community connection, you can't really be a true animist. I don't know...it's odd.

Again, I think it has something to do with the fundamental relationship our spirituality has with our environment. You can be a Christian anywhere...and I could be (if I were) a native animist anywhere, but my rituals would be changed because of the change in flora and fauna and my ties would forever be rooted in the place where my people originated. Every native group is so different in terms of their practices of animism, yet we do have a fairly common base of beliefs...perhaps you should look at natives as many thousands of different sects of the same religion?

So you are saying that there is a possible conection with the animists of sub-sarhan africa, or am I misinterpreting.

No, that doesn't mean native anime...native spiritualist if you will.

Well, you can't. At least, that's my take on it...I mean, you can be a Muslim, a Jew, a Christian, a Jain or Buddhist, but you can't convert to Native Animism and be taken seriously by natives...why is that I wonder?

Is it because aboriginal spirituality is so tied up with our culture? Yet, I myself am not an animist...and many natives are Christians. Perhaps a religion needs to be more organised, or valued widely for one to convert to it and be accepted as such?

Any thoughts on this? It started out kind of as a joke, but I'm actually wondering about this now...
I am currently reading a book by Lynn Andrews (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-ca&field-author=Andrews%2C%20Lynn%20V./702-4116472-7222400), who is a white woman from Beverly Hills, California, who apprenticed under Native American shaman Agnes Whistling Elk of the Cree nation. It's one in a series of books (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061057010/qid=1109964712/sr=1-28/ref=sr_1_0_28/702-4116472-7222400) detailing her journey.

So I suppose some outsiders are welcome into native belief systems.

(EDIT: If anyone is curious, the books are a bit difficult to wade through, and hard to take seriously, in that it relates 'spiritual' events without explaining them in a way that the (presumably) non-Native audience can follow. I can't especially recommend them as a fun read.)

So you are saying that there is a possible conection with the animists of sub-sarhan africa, or am I misinterpreting.
Yes. It is tenuous, but it is there. For example, I would feel closer to a Mapuche Indian of Chile in terms of our spirituality than I would to a non-native, even if that person was my husband. Our creation stories are different, our environment is different, and our experiences as natives are different, but we also have a sort of solidarity based on some similar experiences with colonialisation and so on. It's hard to explain...and I don't want to sound like I am speaking for a large cohesive group of global aboriginals. I'm not. It's just that whether you are Dene, Inuit, Quiche, Carib, Taino, Papauan or whatever, as an animist, your fundamental connection to your community and your surroundings is somewhat similar.

Perhaps we shouldn't even call it religion, just tradition...yet it encompasses spirituality too, so I can't think of a more appropriate word...

So I suppose some outsiders are welcome into native belief systems.
Yes, and I think I've already explained how. You create the connections first and then you are accepted. You are not accepted first, creating the connections later.

Perhaps we shouldn't even call it religion, just tradition...yet it encompasses spirituality too, so I can't think of a more appropriate word...
Religion is a fine word for it.

A "religion" as I see it is the relationship one builds with the deity(s). The process of building this relationship varies, but the act of it --putting oneself in relation to the supernatural --is common to most all religions (except perhaps Buddhism, I don't know too much about it but I think the put themselves into relationship with an idealised self?).

I was also wondering if our animism is insular because it has never been tied very strongly to politics...but then I thought about the Aztecs and Incas who did conquer and impose their state religion on groups...they did convert. My people did not, however...not sure of the link...

Also, those religions weren't strictly animist anymore...they imposed a heirarchy on the people, much as organised religions do. Perhaps once a religion become organised, it loses its purely traditional value and becomes a political tool?

I think it's interesting as well how native groups have managed to incorporate imposed religions such as Christianity into their own belief systems...many natives are extremely Catholic, and they identify with Catholicism because of all the saints...saints that for us can represent archetypes of elemental powers, or deities. Yet a Catholic who is non-native is not going to have the same understanding of our Catholicism as we do...we slipped under the radar in the old days by practising monotheism with a pantheistic flavour:)

I think it's interesting as well how native groups have managed to incorporate imposed religions such as Christianity into their own belief systems...many natives are extremely Catholic, and they identify with Catholicism because of all the saints...saints that for us can represent archetypes of elemental powers, or deities. Yet a Catholic who is non-native is not going to have the same understanding of our Catholicism as we do...we slipped under the radar in the old days by practising monotheism with a pantheistic flavour:)
Voodoo is like that too. Slaves in Haiti identified catholic saints with the spirits and gods of their original religion.

Voodoo is like that too. Slaves in Haiti identified catholic saints with the spirits and gods of their original religion.
Santaria, as practiced in Cuba (and Brazil I think) was also a blend of indigenous African religions and Catholocism.

Blends like that throw better parties:)

I guess I've discouraged everyone from trying to join:)

I was also wondering if our animism is insular because it has never been tied very strongly to politics...but then I thought about the Aztecs and Incas who did conquer and impose their state religion on groups...they did convert. My people did not, however...not sure of the link...

Also, those religions weren't strictly animist anymore...they imposed a heirarchy on the people, much as organised religions do. Perhaps once a religion become organised, it loses its purely traditional value and becomes a political tool?

yeah, they were fairly standard polytheism as far as i know. i'd guess that the shift away from animism is strongly related to the rise of actual classes of rulers and religious specialists and such, which in turn is tied to a drive to expand the amount of land and people under the control of those classes, etc.

I guess I've discouraged everyone from trying to join:)

heh. knowing a couple people interested in animism, i'd say they are more likely to just start working it out their own animist religion - no joining necessary.

yeah, they were fairly standard polytheism as far as i know. i'd guess that the shift away from animism is strongly related to the rise of actual classes of rulers and religious specialists and such, which in turn is tied to a drive to expand the amount of land and people under the control of those classes, etc.
Hmmm...religion as a form of social control versus religion as a form of cultural continuity...similarities between the two, but if the culture is not inherently expansionist, neither is their religion?

heh. knowing a couple people interested in animism, i'd say they are more likely to just start working it out their own animist religion - no joining necessary.
Paganism is kind of similar...but it wouldn't be native animism by definition I guess.

Paganism is kind of similar...but it wouldn't be native animism by definition I guess.

true. though they do seem to like the term turtle island for north america.

i don't really understand the neo-pagans. why bother when animism is so much more interesting?

true. though they do seem to like the term turtle island for north america.

i don't really understand the neo-pagans. why bother when animism is so much more interesting?
Not sure...you'd have to ask a pagan!