NationStates Jolt Archive

and also the Washington state governorship.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=106&e=6&u=/nypost/20050227/cm_nypost/whosevotefraud

Count every vote?

That's what Angry Left Democrats have been demanding ever since the bitterly contested Florida presidential balloting in 2000 and, more recently, the top-of-the-ticket jousting in Ohio.

The Angries had better be careful, though: Counting every vote may not work in their favor.

Take, for example, last year's hyper-contentious gubernatorial race in Washington state.

One would think that almost four months after Election Day, and seven weeks after a swearing-in ceremony, the true outcome of that contest would be clear.

It isn't.

The Washington governor's race is still very much in question.

Even though Democrat Christine Gregoire took the oath of office last month, a judge has decided to grant Republican Dino Rossi the man declared the Election Day victor a day in court.

Rossi is seeking to nullify the election based on suspicious voting tabulations, primarily in King County (which contains Seattle).

Rossi's initial 261-vote margin dropped to 42 following a state-required machine-run recount. In late December, following a Democratic Party-paid hand recount, Gregoire "won" by 129 votes.

Between the two recounts, King County "found" more than 700 ballots officials claim were wrongly rejected. They are included in the recount.

* The person in charge of King County ballot integrity, a Democratic political appointee, can't explain why there are 1,800 more votes "cast" than there are people who actually voted.

* More than 100 provisional ballots were tossed into the election machines before they were certified as legitimate.

* An estimated 1,109 convicted felons all inegible to vote illegally cast ballots in the election. Of these, 884 were in heavily Democratic King County.

It will be several weeks before the case is heard, but if Rossi is successful, Gregoire would be forced to step down and a new election called.

Similar issues are at play in Wisconsin, a state John Kerry (news - web sites) "won" by about 11,000 votes. Many Republicans believe that the Bush campaign really won Wisconsin's 10 electoral votes. Questionable in some cases criminal behavior has been documented:

* In Milwaukee, five Democratic campaign staffers, including Sowande Omokunde, the son of Rep. Gwen Moore, and Michael Pratt, the son of former acting mayor Marvin Pratt, will stand trial on felony charges of criminal damage to property, for slashing the tires of GOP get-out-the-vote vans.

* The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel found a discrepancy of 7,000 more ballots cast than there were records of people having actually voted. Curiously, the city has refused to let the paper examine questionable same-day voter-registration cards.

* Multiple state and federal official inquiries including the FBI (news - web sites)'s have been opened to examine Milwaukee's situation as well as other electoral oddities across the state.

In Pennsylvania, Philadelphia has always been a nexus of Election Day shenanigans. As a Republican spokesman has said, "Vote early and vote often is as much a part of Philly as cheesesteak and the Liberty Bell."

Philadelphia voting machines were found to have votes already tabulated before any votes were legally cast! Rep. Curt Weldon (news, bio, voting record), a Republican who represents suburbs outside of Philadelphia discovered and videotaped members of the proto-Angry groups Move On.org and America Coming Together collecting absentee ballots from prison inmates and taking them to the local Board of Elections.

While some Pennsylvania convicts have the right to vote, third parties are not permitted to collect and forward absentee ballots. So MoveOn and ACT were breaking the law. Yet the story barely made the news.

And so on.

Count every vote?

Sounds like a plan to us.

Whoo! Vote fraud again, yay! And to think I had thought it wouldn't be all that hard to realize when they have 1800 more ballots cast than voters...

Don't you just love the American model of democracy.
I do not remember there ever being this kind of post election battle in the UK. Nor here in Brazil. Why is it so prevelant in the USA?

Why is it so prevelant in the USA?
Because we can't count our way out of a paper bag with the help of a team of volunteers and calculators for everybody.
:D

No, it's because the dead vote here more often than the living.

No, it's because the dead vote here more often than the living.
We should hire "vote interpreters" to commune with the dead and cast their votes!

What you guys need is a good old-fashioned dictatorship. Not a lot would change, anyway.

Don't start on the Washington Election unless you've been here the entire time. Rossi has been spinning bullshit from day one. He's gone from taking shots at Gregoire for suing for a recount, to suing himself. He's a hypocritical fuck, and doesn't deserve the governership of Washington

The truth is that Washington voters don't want a Republigogue running our state. We elected Locke, and now we elected Gregoire. When you have real proof of anything more than irregularities (5000 voters being made "felons" when they hadn't commited a crime on a list that a company was payed millions to check; barracades keeping people of one race from voting in Broward County... You know Florida kinda stuff) then you can come back here and whine. Until then, go away.

Please, GW couldn't take PA in 2000 its no suprise they went to a democrat again.

Don't start on the Washington Election unless you've been here the entire time. Rossi has been spinning bullshit from day one. He's gone from taking shots at Gregoire for suing for a recount, to suing himself. He's a hypocritical fuck, and doesn't deserve the governership of Washington

The truth is that Washington voters don't want a Republigogue running our state. We elected Locke, and now we elected Gregoire. When you have real proof of anything more than irregularities (5000 voters being made "felons" when they hadn't commited a crime on a list that a company was payed millions to check; barracades keeping people of one race from voting in Broward County... You know Florida kinda stuff) then you can come back here and whine. Until then, go away.

the truth is the democrats, having lost the WA governors race, requested partial recounts, during this process they manufactured and magically 'discovered' a few hundred votes for Gregore. The majority of WA didn't vote for the Gregorinch. This is the most blatant vote theft attempt (succesful) since the 2000 Florida Gore attempt (failed, fortunately).

Please, GW couldn't take PA in 2000 its no suprise they went to a democrat again.

what kinda weird logic is that? you know how difficult it is to win PA when the democratic machine in Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania manufactures thousands of votes for their favorite candidate? PA has 2 republican senators so winning there is possible, but in this case the dem machine pulled out all stops for the RAT candidate sKerry.

Don't start on the Washington Election unless you've been here the entire time. Rossi has been spinning bullshit from day one. He's gone from taking shots at Gregoire for suing for a recount, to suing himself. He's a hypocritical fuck, and doesn't deserve the governership of Washington

The truth is that Washington voters don't want a Republigogue running our state. We elected Locke, and now we elected Gregoire. When you have real proof of anything more than irregularities (5000 voters being made "felons" when they hadn't commited a crime on a list that a company was payed millions to check; barracades keeping people of one race from voting in Broward County... You know Florida kinda stuff) then you can come back here and whine. Until then, go away.

and who ran the election process in Broward? that's right, the RATS did. This 'blacks were kept from voting' bullshit is a bunch of crap. All lies invented by the democrat friendly mainstream media (MSM). What they failed to mention was that for example both Gore in 2000 (Florida) and Gregore in 2004 (WA) tried to (and in Gregore's case succeeded in) disenfranchising overseas military personnel.

What goes around, comes around.

Both sides are devils and both are guilty of rigging elections.

I find this funny coming from someone named "Hitlerreich".

What goes around, comes around.

Both sides are devils and both are guilty of rigging elections.
Thank you for that insightful comment.

I cannot speak for other states... but for my home state of Wisconsin, well... maybe the cows voted.

(more likely, dems prolly gave homeless people in Milwaukee cigarettes and/or booze to vote democrat)

the truth is the democrats, having lost the WA governors race, requested partial recounts, during this process they manufactured and magically 'discovered' a few hundred votes for Gregore. The majority of WA didn't vote for the Gregorinch. This is the most blatant vote theft attempt (succesful) since the 2000 Florida Gore attempt (failed, fortunately).

There is no evidence of this

Well, I don't know if this is true or not, I suppose if it is, maybe it was pay back for the republicans stealing the election in 2000. ;)

I cannot speak for other states... but for my home state of Wisconsin, well... maybe the cows voted.

(more likely, dems prolly gave homeless people in Milwaukee cigarettes and/or booze to vote democrat)

I know that ehre in louisiana, people drove around in cargo vans offering food o people who registerd and voted democrat. And we still voted bush :p

I know that ehre in louisiana, people drove around in cargo vans offering food o people who registerd and voted democrat. And we still voted bush :p

Well, there were the officials from the NAACP in Ohio who were caught registering people in exchange for crack cocaine. The crack was purchased with money directly from the local NAACP budget.

But, there are minor infractions (to me they don't add up to much) on both sides.

I do take exception with the official Democratic Party memo that came out BEFORE the national election, encouraging people to claim that there was voter intimidation against blacks even if it does not happen. That was one of the dumbest things I've read in a long time.

Basically, the election in Washington state is so close that whoever wins can't claim any kind of real support.

Maybe they need to change election laws. If the margin of victory is less than the number of registered voters who did not vote, then the election should be declared invalid, and must be re-done.

Maybe they need to change election laws. If the margin of victory is less than the number of registered voters who did not vote, then the election should be declared invalid, and must be re-done.

Permanent electioneering would be the result of such a change. The turn out in US elections means that you would never actually have a government.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea after all.

Permanent electioneering would be the result of such a change. The turn out in US elections means that you would never actually have a government.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea after all.

Don't they have compulsory voting in the UK?

Don't they have compulsory voting in the UK?

No, and the apathy is even worse there.

We do have compulsory voting here in Brazil, which forces elections to nbe popularity contests rather than about issues. The majority of politicians campaign negatively against the personality of his or her opponents rather than actualy presenting a manifesto.
I would suggest that compulsory voting is one of the worst forms of democracy.

Don't they have compulsory voting in the UK?


You are thinking of Australia.

Don't you just love the American model of democracy.
I do not remember there ever being this kind of post election battle in the UK. Nor here in Brazil. Why is it so prevelant in the USA?
One reason would be state ID or drivers' licenses are not required in order to vote.

I think this just shows that anyone can claim voting irregularities in many different ways with many different close elections. And you can make it seem as such.

I'm not really thinking that the irregularities were very serious, and I really don't think fraud was involved. I think when we say that both parties are involved with fraud, I think it would be better to say that both parties are involved with the creation of impression of fraud.

and also the Washington state governorship.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=106&ncid=106&e=6&u=/nypost/20050227/cm_nypost/whosevotefraud

Count every vote?

That's what Angry Left Democrats have been demanding ever since the bitterly contested Florida presidential balloting in 2000 and, more recently, the top-of-the-ticket jousting in Ohio.

The Angries had better be careful, though: Counting every vote may not work in their favor.
And this comes as some sort of surprise to you???

i just have one interesting piece of info to add, (not trying to flamenait)

Election exit polls were NEVER wrong until the elections of 2000 (coincidently the first use of electronic voting machines)

i mean c'mon now (http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevotedemo.htm)

i was against the idea of electronic voting machines before i could vote (which i couldn't in 2000)

all you american posters are just prooving what is wrong with american voting. someone here posted it's a good thing gore failed in court, some are saying it's good the democrats have washinton. you are all happy to throw out democracy as long as *your* party is in power.

but on a side-note, it's amazing that people can become president without popular vote, having your vote count more than somone else, purely on where you live is rediculous.

I think it's pretty clear that we just don't have enough clear unbiased information to know right now if any or all of these claimed cases of election fraud are real. There are just far too many people with too much to gain from claiming they're fraudulent or not, and nowhere near enough solid evidence.

What is also clear is that the voting system in this country needs a serious overhaul so that it becomes something we can actually trust. I shouldn't have to worry that maybe my vote is irrelevant because everything will be decided in the end by clerical errors, intentional or not. What I don't understand is why, after all this fuss about the last two elections, no one in government seems to be interested in fixing things.

i just have one interesting piece of info to add, (not trying to flamenait)

Election exit polls were NEVER wrong until the elections of 2000 (coincidently the first use of electronic voting machines)

i mean c'mon now (http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevotedemo.htm)

i was against the idea of electronic voting machines before i could vote (which i couldn't in 2000)
You know what else is funny? The two main counties that GW supposedly rigged in Florida were heavily democrat and run and counted completely by democrats, yet those are the only counties that Gore wanted recounts in. Coincidence?

I don't really care who rigged what in the past two elections, my beef is with the fact that regardless of who did the rigging, rigging was done. (enough rigging)

If we could sit here today and say that whomever was elected became so under a 100% undisputed accurate count, I'd be a happy man and wouldn't complain if my candidate didn't win.

Hell, If I personally had to sit and count each vote by hand by myself, to ensure it was accurate, I'd sacrifice and do it.