NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077

And what do they intend to use it for? Control rioters, of course! How can you possibly insinuate it could also be used for torturing?... US military, torture??? Come on...

Ouch.

...

And that is, I believe, all I have to say about this.

Is this for real?

Is this for real?
Well it is from New Scientist so I'd say yes. :p

Ans it's scary. :( They want to use it on rioters? wtf? That's bad enough, even without the obvious next step into torture.

Yay for corruption!

Would you rather we just shoot the rioters instead?

Would you rather we just shoot the rioters instead?
Yes, it's much more fun. There's no blood with this new weapon, whcih automatically makes me dislike it.

Oh, please, they already have Britney and Madonna...

No surprises here...

just wait till someone steals it

*Enters the ouch zone*

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077

And what do they intend to use it for? Control rioters, of course! How can you possibly insinuate it could also be used for torturing?... US military, torture??? Come on...

a good thing if you ask me, leftist rioters tend to be violent (see what they did during the Seattle WTO meeting a few years back) so sometimes certain measures have to be taken to protect the general public from these violent thugs.

a good thing if you ask me, leftist rioters tend to be violent (see what they did during the Seattle WTO meeting a few years back) so sometimes certain measures have to be taken to protect the general public from these violent thugs.

Are rightist rioters peaceful then?

Are rightist rioters peaceful then?
Mmm, oxymorons.
But I think he's trying to say that all "leftist" protestors are violent, which is of course a crock.

a good thing if you ask me, leftist rioters tend to be violent (see what they did during the Seattle WTO meeting a few years back) so sometimes certain measures have to be taken to protect the general public from these violent thugs.
Ooh right, we evil leftys always want to hurt people. Yay for broad generalizations.
:rolleyes:

It's real, and it's called the Active Denial system. It's mounted on top of a Humvee.

It's non-lethal. It doesn't create any permanent injuries. But...

If you need to control a crowd of several thousand angry people, it sure beats a machinegun. First, no one gets killed. Second, no one is permanently injured. Third, it's more effective - everyone you point it at is going to run away.

The sensation you get from it is like touching your hand to the bottom of a hot steam iron - except that the sensation is all over your body and the burning sensation is not caused by an actual burn - it's caused by a very specific stimulation of your peripheral nerve endings by a very specific frequency and power of microwave energy.

You're not being cooked at all - you're not being injured at all - but you feel like it.

Think of it as a wide-beam agonizer.

Ooh right, we evil leftys always want to hurt people. Yay for broad generalizations.
:rolleyes:

Oh right, conservatives are bigots and sexist. Yay for broad generalizations.
:rolleyes:

Last I checked, the funding for this weapon started under the Clinton Administration, and continues to this day.

It doesn't have a label on its control panel that says, "Democrat" or "Republican", so either party can use it to control rioters.

Oh right, conservatives are bigots and sexist. Yay for broad generalizations.
:rolleyes:
What was that for? Was that meant as a reply directly to me? If so, I don't see how what I said justified an attack on me...

What was that for? Was that meant as a reply directly to me? If so, I don't see how what I said justified an attack on me...

not an attack on you, just an attack on hipocrisy in general, no offence was intended. And if you were offended, you are just a bit thin skinned if you ask me.

not an attack on you, just an attack on hipocrisy in general, no offence was intended.
Oh, I was confused there for a bit.
And if you were offended, you are just a bit thin skinned if you ask me.
No, I was just confused because I thought you had inferred that I thought all conservatives were bigots from the statement I made. Oops.
:p

Oh right, conservatives are bigots and sexist. Yay for broad generalizations.
:rolleyes:

Is it a generalization if its true? :D

Oh, I was confused there for a bit.

No, I was just confused because I thought you had inferred that I thought all conservatives were bigots from the statement I made. Oops.
:p

i have just heard broad generalizations like that before and i was calling attention to it. both sides make generalizations, and i didn;t want anyone to forget that. :p

Is it a generalization if its true? :D

I'm a conservative Christian, and I may be a bigot (who isn't, if you follow the definition), but I'm not sexist.

Is it a generalization if its true? :D

the funny thing is....it's not....

both sides make generalizations, and i didn;t want anyone to forget that. :p
I'm always amused when a liberal accuses all conservatives of making broad generalizations of liberals, personally. That always brightens my day. Or, conversely, darkens it, for that matter. It's funny either way though.

I think this is an excellent idea. THe police force could carry them, so they could make much more effective non-lethal takedowns, instead of having to shoot armed perps and the like.

I think this is an excellent idea. THe police force could carry them, so they could make much more effective non-lethal takedowns, instead of having to shoot armed perps and the like.
I find non-lethal means of takedowns put out plenty of lawsuits for injuries and unintelligent use of weapon becuase it is "non-lethal"

a good thing if you ask me, leftist rioters tend to be violent (see what they did during the Seattle WTO meeting a few years back) so sometimes certain measures have to be taken to protect the general public from these violent thugs.

Are rightist rioters peaceful then?
Please show me an example of a Politically Motivated "Rightest/Right Wing" riot. (Random Rampaging Neo-Nazis don't count. Thats a different issue.)

Please show me an example of a Politically Motivated "Rightest/Right Wing" riot. (Random Rampaging Neo-Nazis don't count. Thats a different issue.)
Look up abortion clinic riots or anti-anti-bush riots

Would you rather we just shoot the rioters instead?

Many probably would. It would then give them more of an excuse to blame society for all of thier ills as the Gov't is trying to keep them down and not get a free TV.

Think about it. A few shootings =

More reasons to blame the Gov't for being excessive (those poor looters, how could the police have done that, they were only throwing rocks and bottles at them.).
LOTS of publicity.

Please show me an example of a Politically Motivated "Rightest/Right Wing" riot. (Random Rampaging Neo-Nazis don't count. Thats a different issue.)

Drumcree?

Look up abortion clinic riots or anti-anti-bush riots
Um... by whose definition were those (which I couldn't find on a quick Google) "riots"?

A Riot has a specific legal definition. Understanding Riots (http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj14n1-13.html) A Riot is different from a demonstration. Riots involve violence to People and damage to property. The WTO Riots were Riots by definition. Please cite where there has been an organized political "demonstration" by "Rightests" which has resulted in situations like the WTO.

Drumcree?

IRA and those of their ilk should be thrown in the bin of the nazis.

IRA and those of their ilk should be thrown in the bin of the nazis.

I'm talking about the Orange Order, actually.

Drumcree?
Dumcree?

I'm not familiar with the incident. There is a large difference between the "Right" of the US and the "Right" of other countries though, so I'm not sure it's appropriate to compare the two.

Left/WTO = Right/???
Left/1968 Chicago DNC = Right/????
Left/Anti-war riots = Right/???

I think this is an excellent idea. THe police force could carry them, so they could make much more effective non-lethal takedowns, instead of having to shoot armed perps and the like.

It's not man-portable. It's mounted on a Hummer, and has its own generator.

It doesn't take you down either. As soon as you are out of the beam, or they turn it off, the pain stops.

It's a pain-compliance based tool.

Dumcree?

I'm not familiar with the incident. There is a large difference between the "Right" of the US and the "Right" of other countries though, so I'm not sure it's appropriate to compare the two.

Left/WTO = Right/???
Left/1968 Chicago DNC = Right/????
Left/Anti-war riots = Right/???

Are you thus implying that the leftists of the US and the rest of the world aren't prey to this same division - that a true international does actually exist?

I find non-lethal means of takedowns put out plenty of lawsuits for injuries and unintelligent use of weapon becuase it is "non-lethal"

The military plans to use it primarily overseas. It's rather hard for the indigenous population of West Nowhereistan to sue.

It's also useful in military situations. For instance, if you have a large number of insurgents in an area who are shooting at you, and you want to suppress them, you sweep this beam over them.

Any exposed part of their body is going to feel like they're being torched.

While they're hunkering down to avoid feeling like that, you can move around behind them, or up alongside and toss in a grenade. It's much better at suppression than most lethal weapons.

The actual term in use today is "less lethal" in law enforcement circles.

The military plans to use it primarily overseas. It's rather hard for the indigenous population of West Nowhereistan to sue.

It's also useful in military situations. For instance, if you have a large number of insurgents in an area who are shooting at you, and you want to suppress them, you sweep this beam over them.

Any exposed part of their body is going to feel like they're being torched.

While they're hunkering down to avoid feeling like that, you can move around behind them, or up alongside and toss in a grenade. It's much better at suppression than most lethal weapons.

The actual term in use today is "less lethal" in law enforcement circles.

the one small problem in with this eapon is that it only affects exposed flesh (apparently) how would that work agains many of the insugents wearing more thaan just shorts and a t shirt. what if they jsut covered everything. problem solved.

the one small problem in with this eapon is that it only affects exposed flesh (apparently) how would that work agains many of the insugents wearing more thaan just shorts and a t shirt. what if they jsut covered everything. problem solved.
Whoops, there goes our billion-dollar weapon!

wow, this is pretty cool. All they need is a new uniform to go with it! Something that covers them up so there's no way they can get hit, whilst looking evil at the same time. By jove, I've got it!

http://www.highadmiral.de/sis/characters/stormtrooper.jpg

I mean... they don't even have to worry about disintegrations!

I'm talking about the Orange Order, actually.

drumcree seems to be an isolated incidant. but granted it was nonsensical.

wow, this is pretty cool. All they need is a new uniform to go with it! Something that covers them up so there's no way they can get hit, whilst looking evil at the same time. By jove, I've got it!

http://www.highadmiral.de/sis/characters/stormtrooper.jpg

I mean... they don't even have to worry about disintegrations!

Sweet...

the one small problem in with this eapon is that it only affects exposed flesh (apparently) how would that work agains many of the insugents wearing more thaan just shorts and a t shirt. what if they jsut covered everything. problem solved.

Nope. I've seen the Active Denial system. You have to be behind something that stops microwaves.

I can tell you from first hand experience that you don't want to have even a square centimeter of your flesh hit by the beam. It feels exactly like having a blowtorch brush over you. And since you can't see the beam, I can imagine that a crowd won't be able to visualize how to dodge it, either. Your only option is to run away, as fast as you can, and get behind a car or building.

drumcree seems to be an isolated incidant. but granted it was nonsensical.

Drumcree itself was an isolated incident, but for a peroid of about five or six years it regularly sparked Orange Order roadblocks and loyalist riots, so it was hardly without its effects.

Are you thus implying that the leftists of the US and the rest of the world aren't prey to this same division - that a true international does actually exist?
No, I am not implying that the Left of other countries are not prey to the same divisions.

The original poster cited the WTO, a US riot, by US Leftists. I was responding to the sociopolitical conditions of US rioters.

By definition, in the US, "rightest" political activists tend to be law abiding (sometimes to a fault), Leftist political activists like to push the envelope - which often leads to rioting.

Other countries do things differently.

No, I am not implying that the Left of other countries are not prey to the same divisions.

The original poster cited the WTO, a US riot, by US Leftists. I was responding to the sociopolitical conditions of US rioters.

By definition, in the US, "rightest" political activists tend to be law abiding, Leftist political activists like to push the envelope - which often leads to rioting.

Other countries do things differently.

I was just picking up on the 'leftist rioters tend to be violent' statement: by definition rioters tend (or indeed are) violent: their political affiliations are irrelevant.

What's the problem here? Similar systems are already up and working. Tear gas, rubber bullets, baton rounds, acoustics weapons, aqueous foams, etc. have been around for quite some time. Most have proven ineffective, and the results are usually seen in lead and blood.

Would you rather see violent protesters or rioters taken down in a hail of lethal bullets killing many of them or in a blast of non-lethal weapons, allowing them to protest/riot another day?

Oh, and Pulsed Energy Projectiles and Active Denial Systems are two completely different technologies, Whispering Legs.

All that being said, there are some concerns over the damages caused by both systems (Active denial systems may cause blindness, for example). But I'm in favor of something that is likely to decrease needless deaths. I'm surprised anyone's against it....

Nope. I've seen the Active Denial system. You have to be behind something that stops microwaves.

I can tell you from first hand experience that you don't want to have even a square centimeter of your flesh hit by the beam. It feels exactly like having a blowtorch brush over you. And since you can't see the beam, I can imagine that a crowd won't be able to visualize how to dodge it, either. Your only option is to run away, as fast as you can, and get behind a car or building.

i say we just get tinfoil helmets

By definition, in the US, "rightest" political activists tend to be law abiding

Because pro-life, white supremacy and small government are all left wing points of view?

I was just picking up on the 'leftist rioters tend to be violent' statement: by definition rioters tend (or indeed are) violent: their political affiliations are irrelevant.
This is true, except to state that in the US politically motivated rioters tend to be Leftist. I was responding to the implication that there are (or could be) "right wing" rioters in the US.

AFAIC, microwaving rioters is a good idea - whatever their stripe or motivation. It's a hell of a lot more efficient than Gas and less messy/damaging than Water Cannons.

Yes, pulsed energy projectiles are much closer to the idea of beating on people. But that's a laser, not a microwave.

Tests to date with the Marine Corps show that the Active Denial system can't blind you.

But I'm in favor of something that is likely to decrease needless deaths. I'm surprised anyone's against it....

How many people have died in riots in the US in the last 100 years?

How did they die?

Because pro-life, white supremacy and small government are all left wing points of view?
"Tend". There are exceptions.

Because they have not Rioted in the legal sense - especially to the extent of the events cited earlier.

Neither are pro-life and white supremacy Political points of view in the way described.

Please show me an incident where the "Small Government" Political Position has Rioted.

How many people have died in riots in the US in the last 100 years?

How did they die?

i'm not sure how many, but most who died were either bystander or people n the riot that were trampled. Soem were police casualties as well.

How many people have died in riots in the US in the last 100 years?

How did they die?

Some, to be sure. And even if the police only beat one protester to death, that's one too many - for PR purposes.

Overseas, a lot of people are killed by police using rubber bullets, plastic coated bullets, water cannon, etc.

What the military wants is a way to deal with mass numbers of people without the bad press of killing them all. Even if most of the people in the crowd are armed (as they were in Somalia), it's still bad press to kill a lot of them - most media organizations will report the killing or wounding of any armed non-uniformed person as the massacre of an innocent unarmed civilian.

Not just because of bias - but it's hard to tell if someone was an armed civilian after the US soldiers take the weapon off his dead body. There you have a corpse, shot full of holes, without a uniform or weapon.

One of the other priorities is keeping out of range of angry people. In Kosovo, some US troops were critically injured by Serbs using rocks and nail-studded clubs. The US troops were under orders not to fire back - so in essence, they were unarmed against people who could attack them.

Those orders came from President Clinton. One of my friends lost an eye to one of those clubs. If you're going to put soldiers into situations that don't exactly fit all-out warfare, you have to give them an intermediate method of response.

How many people have died in riots in the US in the last 100 years?

How did they die?

A lot, and by various means. If you can provide a run down please do so.
I can provide dribs and drabs.
Here's a site claiming 4381 people were killed in political violence in the US in the 20th C.: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/usa-riot.htm

But what does it matter? One easily preventable death is one too many. Give those responsible for maintaining the peace a non-lethal solution. One less lethal than bullets.

Oh, and those who claim rioting is only a lefty activity, look here:

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/riots_1966to1977.html
Chicago riots in the 1940s and 50s typically involved angry white mobs protesting, often violently, outside of the homes of new black residents. The locations were typically limited and police tactics simple--just guard the residence.

Real lefty activity that, eh?
Lots of others out there if you want.

Please show me an incident where the "Small Government" Political Position has Rioted.

Or where samll government is a left position for that matter. :confused:

Or where samll government is a left position for that matter. :confused:

he never said it was.

Are rightist rioters peaceful then?


yes Rightest rioters tend to be much more peacefull than Leftest, also often more stupid thn Leftests but thats not the point.

Ya know, this thing totally isn't new news. Popular Science had a thing about it six months ago. The reporter went in to write an article about the "pain ray" and the Colonel who was leading him on the tour asked him if he wanted to take it for a spin. The Colonel, a tough guy in the mode of Major Marvy, said that none of the soldiers who tried the thing out lasted more than 3 seconds before crying uncle.

The article made Johnny Knoxville look like the model of restraint. I bet these guys have an electrified iron toad in all the base urinals.

Ya know, this thing totally isn't new news. Popular Science had a thing about it six months ago. The reporter went in to write an article about the "pain ray" and the Colonel who was leading him on the tour asked him if he wanted to take it for a spin. The Colonel, a tough guy in the mode of Major Marvy, said that none of the soldiers who tried the thing out lasted more than 3 seconds before crying uncle.

The article made Johnny Knoxville look like the model of restraint. I bet these guys have an electrified iron toad in all the base urinals.

I've been to a demonstration of the device at Quantico. It was an instantaneous effect - instant agony. If I lasted as long as a second, it's only because I couldn't get the words out quickly enough for them to turn it off.

Yeah...sad to say this isn;t new. i heard about this in an articl in the newspaper i read about 1 year ago. nd ihave seen it on the dsicovery channel many a time.

A lot, and by various means. If you can provide a run down please do so.
I can provide dribs and drabs.
Here's a site claiming 4381 people were killed in political violence in the US in the 20th C.: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/usa-riot.htm

But what does it matter? One easily preventable death is one too many. Give those responsible for maintaining the peace a non-lethal solution. One less lethal than bullets.

Oh, and those who claim rioting is only a lefty activity, look here:

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/riots_1966to1977.htmlReal lefty activity that, eh?
Lots of others out there if you want.
And just how do race riots of the middle of the 20th century equate to the Politically motivated riots I am addressing? Apples to Apples please.
Firstly, the modern distinction of Left/Right was different then. Even the mob violence that occured during legitimate peaceful civil-rights protests were not planned attempts at destabilization - as were the coordinated WTO "protests".
The organizational pattern of modern (21st century) riots is one of specific attempts at impeding and or negating lawful exercises policy through acts of overt violence against coroprate entities. This Link (http://www.channelu.com/Articles/wto/) provides an exemplar.

Or where samll government is a left position for that matter.
Not sure what you mean. I never intimated it was.

Always nice when the government has a way to make sure that the right to arms isn't a danger to them...

But hey, if they use this on those murderous abortion clinic rioters, I won't mind.

Lets think about this rationally:

Would a non-lethal weapon work if it didn't hurt?
No! Unless it caused bouts on uncontrolled tickling, but seriously, you're not going to stop someone by throwing sunshine and rainbows at them

Can it be used for torture?
Yes.

Can anything else be used for torture?
Yes, damn near anything, weapon anf non-weapon alike.

The number one torture instrument in the world is the cigarette.

The number one torture instrument in the world is the cigarette.
I personally like the ball-peen hammer.

Back Street Boys at 20 paces.

Ishtar.

Vogon Poetry....

Well it is from New Scientist so I'd say yes. :p

Ans it's scary. :( They want to use it on rioters? wtf? That's bad enough, even without the obvious next step into torture.
Would you rather be pegged by knee-knockers? Or tear gas? Hmmmm?

I personally like the ball-peen hammer.

Back Street Boys at 20 paces.

Ishtar.

Vogon Poetry....

That's probably because you don't smoke. I hear playing Barney videos over and over again is pretty good, too.

Ans it's scary. :( They want to use it on rioters? wtf? That's bad enough, even without the obvious next step into torture.
Ximinez: Fear, surprise, and a most ruthless-- Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the rack!


Ximinez: You....Right! Tie her down.

[Fang and Biggles make a pathetic attempt to tie her on to the drying rack]

Ximinez:Right! How do you plead?
Clevelnd: Innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Right! Cardinal, give the rack [oh dear] give the rack a turn.

[Biggles stands their awkwardly and shrugs his shoulders]

Biggles: I....
Ximinez: [gritting his teeth] I *know*, I know you can't. I didn't want to say anything. I just wanted to try and ignore your crass mistake.
Biggles: I...
Ximinez: It makes it all seem so stupid.
Biggles: Shall I...?
Ximinez: No, just pretend for God's sake. Ha! Ha! Ha!

[Biggles turns an imaginary handle on the side of the dish-rack]

[Cut to them torturing a dear old lady, Marjorie Wilde]

Ximinez: Now, old woman -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess?
Wilde: I don't understand what I'm accused of.
Ximinez: Ha! Then we'll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...[B]THE CUSHIONS!

[JARRING CHORD]



Biggles: Here they are, lord.
Ximinez: Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
Wilde: I don't know what you're talking about.
Ximinez: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! [B]Poke her with the soft cushions!


Ximinez: Confess! Confess! Confess!
Biggles: It doesn't seem to be hurting her, lord.
Ximinez: Have you got all the stuffing up one end?
Biggles: Yes, lord.
Ximinez [angrily hurling away the cushions]: Hm! She is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch...[B]THE COMFY CHAIR!

[JARRING CHORD]

[Zoom into Fang's horrified face]

Fang [terrified]: The...Comfy Chair?

[Biggles pushes in a comfy chair -- a really plush one]

Ximinez: So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair!

[They roughly push her into the Comfy Chair]

Ximinez [with a cruel leer]: Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunch time, with only a cup of coffee at eleven. [aside, to Biggles] Is that really all it is?
Biggles: Yes, lord.
Ximinez: I see. I suppose we make it worse by shouting a lot, do we? Confess, woman. Confess! Confess! Confess! Confess
Biggles: I confess!
-----------------
No Starbucks for the Rioters....

Oh, the horror! The U.S. is developing a device that is likely to result in fewer deaths resulting from the actions of their military! This is going to make it even harder to demonize them! Oh, the horror!

Oh, the horror! The U.S. is developing a device that is likely to result in fewer deaths resulting from the actions of their military! This is going to make it even harder to demonize them! Oh, the horror!

There are a lot more less lethal or non-lethal items in the works for the US military.

Apparently, there's been a recognition by the US military that not only are US voters unwilling to accept large numbers of US casualties, but they don't have the stomach for the wholesale killing of foreigners (even if the foreigners are armed).

You know, we don't want to look bad.

The technology is progressing much faster than most of you realize - and a lot of money is being spent on it.

There's even a planned scaling back of the size of lethal munitions - to just the size necessary - in order to further minimize civilian casualties.

One example is the Big Gun program. It involves conversion of a civilian airliner into a bomber. But instead of dropping bombs, it drops 155mm artillery shells (which are substantially smaller than the typical 2000-lb bomb). These would be fitted with GPS guidance and target seeker heads, and simply dropped from a height on demand from a ground unit or on the basis of target information from JSTARS or a satellite.

The airliner could hit literally thousands of targets - over a loiter time measured in hours. But, each target would be extremely confined - and carefully selected. Not a carpet-bombing machine, but a precision machine.

If you figure the area of a circle from its radius, you have to be at least 500 meters from a 2000-lb bomb to have a good chance of being safe and uninjured. This radius is far smaller for a 155mm shell.

But I think he's trying to say that all "leftist" protestors are violent
Perhaps, although certainly not Greenpeacers seeing as they got their asses kicked by a bunch of british oil stockbrokers a few weeks ago. Then they whined about it.

anti-anti-bush riots
I agree there is violence, but it's mainly started by whiny leftists who get pissed when we ruin their protests. Or by the anarchy crowd if they're present.

Yay! That's Asimov's Neuro-whip! I've always wanted one of them...

I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition...

*runs away*

Real lefty activity that, eh?
Lots of others out there if you want.
How long has Chicago had Dem. governors? Yeah, I thought so.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7077

And what do they intend to use it for? Control rioters, of course! How can you possibly insinuate it could also be used for torturing?... US military, torture??? Come on...
Pain is good. It lets you know you're still alive.

Seems great to me. Better alive than dead. That way when you kill no-one their is no foreign incident, and thus there is less world conflict.

Pain is good. It lets you know you're still alive.
Another cool thing: A "Pain Overload" can cause unconciousness.

Mr. Checkov, set Phasers to "Stun".

Well, the US isn't only into pain.

They are researching using sticky foam projectors (glue you to the spot you're standing on), and calmative agents (you don't go to sleep, but you don't bother the US soldiers as they walk by).

And just how do race riots of the middle of the 20th century equate to the Politically motivated riots I am addressing? Apples to Apples please.

Race is, and always has been, a political fiction. So any race riot is, by definition, political.

Firstly, the modern distinction of Left/Right was different then.

:confused: No, it really hasn't. We are talking about modern times, and the definitions of left and right have not changed at all in that time period, as far as I can tell.

Even the mob violence that occured during legitimate peaceful civil-rights protests were not planned attempts at destabilization - as were the coordinated WTO "protests".

Sorry, I didn't follow that. Did you mean to say that the violence that occured in conjunction with the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s was unplanned while the violence involved in the WTO protests was planned? That's the way I read it, and if so I missed your point entierly. Would you be kind enough to explain it to me?

The organizational pattern of modern (21st century) riots is one of specific attempts at impeding and or negating lawful exercises policy through acts of overt violence against coroprate entities. This Link (http://www.channelu.com/Articles/wto/) provides an exemplar.

So by your own admission, and that of your link, the WTO protesters purposly engaged in illegal actions? If so, they should be expecting the full force of the law, both practically and morally.

Not sure what you mean. I never intimated it was.


My apologies. That was aimed at this:
Because pro-life, white supremacy and small government are all left wing points of view?

:headbang:

I personally like the ball-peen hammer.

Ouch!

Back Street Boys at 20 paces.

Ouch!!!

Ishtar.

:eek:

Vogon Poetry....

:::reports Synics to HRW, Amnesty, and the ICRC:::
;)


How long has Chicago had Dem. governors? Yeah, I thought so.

Since never, AFAIK. To my knowledge Chicago has Mayors, not governors. ;)

Illionois has had a fair mix of Dems and Reps: http://www.nndb.com/gov/920/000051767/

For the time period of the riots in question (40s and 50s), the governors were:
Dwight Herbert Green (41-49) Republican
Adlai Stevenson (49-53) Democrat
William Grant Stratton (53-61) Republican