NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=3&article_id=13140
$80/barrel may come within two years. Thoughts?

Yes I heard this today. They were talking up to $80 a barrel!!!! What a joke. Time to buy into the energy stocks I guess. This is such a damn joke though. How about we say FU OPEC. Turn our attention toward getting the west off oil dependency? Sounds like a good idea to me.

Yes I heard this today. They were talking up to $80 a barrel!!!! What a joke. Time to buy into the energy stocks I guess. This is such a damn joke though. How about we say FU OPEC. Turn our attention toward getting the west off oil dependency? Sounds like a good idea to me.
This is exactly what we need. High oil prices will encourage investment elsewhere. However, it does dismay me that OPEC is inflating its prices. In a truely free market, oil would be closer to $20 a barrel. Otherwise, OPEC would have no reason to exist.

Why is it a joke?

Everybody is in a hurry to market in China. As the economy builds there, guess what they are going to buy more of......

The higher, the better. *nod*

Monstrous Spike. That's funny.

Well if higher the better. Then I am guessing you mean so that we can figure a way off the oil drug?

Why is it a joke?

Everybody is in a hurry to market in China. As the economy builds there, guess what they are going to buy more of......

That's true, I have long advocated keeping China poor, but that dimwit Kissinger wouldn't listen to me.

Well if higher the better. Then I am guessing you mean so that we can figure a way off the oil drug?

Actually, there are already ways. So that maybe we'll explore them!

Actually, there are already ways. So that maybe we'll explore them!

The problem with hydrogen fuel cells, for instance, is that you need energy (quite a bit, I believe) to produce them. Whether it takes more energy from an oil powered energy plant to produce one then it takes oil to fuel a car, I don't know. Maybe we should invest in nuclear power.

The reason opec is raising prises is becouse we are fudgin their countries up if they don't agree with the U.S rightist idealogy. Like Iraq, dont get me wrong, saddam was a jerk, but he did NOT have wmds. And Venezuala, where hugo chavez finnally made the indians not second class citezens and virtually eliminated income disparity and nationalized almost all oil companys inside the country, why supported a coup in that country. Its the third worlds way of telling us to fuck off. Sucks but hey, take a bus. Drive a hybrid. In most places in this country you dont need cars. I mean sure, if you live in some rural fly-by state than yea, you need one, but carpool, theres alot that americans dont do that can cut down on oil consumption. Like what the rest of the world does...
P:S Yea, for things like hydragen cells and fancy things like that, you need a very high starting energy. What the country needs isnt different types of energy, we should just use less, or invest in solar, wind, and even nuclear energy. :gundge:

The reason opec is raising prises is becouse we are fudgin their countries up if they don't agree with the U.S rightist idealogy. Like Iraq, dont get me wrong, saddam was a jerk, but he did NOT have wmds. And Venezuala, where hugo chavez finnally made the indians not second class citezens and virtually eliminated income disparity and nationalized almost all oil companys inside the country, why supported a coup in that country. Its the third worlds way of telling us to fuck off. Sucks but hey, take a bus. Drive a hybrid. In most places in this country you dont need cars. I mean sure, if you live in some rural fly-by state than yea, you need one, but carpool, theres alot that americans dont do that can cut down on oil consumption. Like what the rest of the world does...

At best that's a pretext. Make no mistake, profits are the main driving force behind OPEC. That's the entire point of the organization: to manage the price and production rate of oil. If pushing an agenda happens to coencede with making a profit then they could do it. Otherwise, it's out of their territory. Remember that most of the OPEC countries' economies are dominated by the oil industry. They need to diversify their economies and they need money to do that. Investments, especially if oil is nationalized, often come from oil I think. If they can jack up the price this much I'd put them in a great (better anyway) position in the short and long term.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=3&article_id=13140
$80/barrel may come within two years. Thoughts?

If the U.S. said "We are willing to pay $15 a barrel. If you don't like that, we won't buy oil from you." and then actually did it, within a week opec would drop their prices. The only problem is that no one is willing to try something like that.

If the U.S. said "We are willing to pay $15 a barrel. If you don't like that, we won't buy oil from you." and then actually did it, within a week opec would drop their prices. The only problem is that no one is willing to try something like that.

I'm not sure how much it'd even hurt us. OPEC may control about 75% of the world's oil supply, but their actual production is under 50% of the world's yearly production. OPEC is made up of countries without the money to fully exploit their oil resources. Norway and Russia export more oil then any OPEC nation except Saudi Arabia.

One thing that makes me mad about the whole oil dependcy here is that everyone talks about how eventually they think the oil will run out, yet I see SUVs everywhere now! I feel like such a prick because I am driving an SUV (It's my mom's car.. I can't afford a small one yet.. I'm a teen). I want one of those tiny european cars, but since everyone has huge cars I am afraid that in a crash I woul djust get squashed! ><

On NPR the other day they were talkign about how they figured out soem sort of easy table top nuclear fusion

I'll try to find information on it if ya want.

There is energy everywhere, we just ened to find new ways to make use of it.

On NPR the other day they were talkign about how they figured out soem sort of easy table top nuclear fusion

I'll try to find information on it if ya want.

There is energy everywhere, we just ened to find new ways to make use of it.

Fascinating! :eek:

Think of the good that can be done by fusing two tabletops together! :eek:


;)

lol - actually there were a ton of links on it - they are still sceptical though - they can't get funding for it or they would be further along they say

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1855672.stm

The scientists fired sound waves through acetone, causing minute bubbles in the liquid to collapse at temperatures of millions of degrees to produce small flashes of light.

It is within these collapsed bubbles, the researchers say, that the nuclei of atoms fuse, releasing energy in the same way that the Sun does.



http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-03/aaft-fia030102.php

The dramatic flashing implosion of tiny bubbles--in acetone containing deuterium atoms--produces tritium and nuclear emissions similar to emissions characteristic of nuclear fusion involving deuterium-deuterium reactions. This finding was reported in the 8 March issue of the peer-reviewed journal Science, published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

Shock wave simulations also indicate that temperatures inside the collapsing bubbles may reach up to 10 million degrees Kelvin, as hot as the center of the sun. Although the high temperatures and pressures within the bubbles would be sufficient to generate fusion, the overall results of the study only suggest, but do not confirm, nuclear fusion in the bubbles’ collapse.

Nuclear fusion joins together light atoms, such as hydrogen, in a reaction that creates a third heavier atom and converts some of the original atoms’ mass into energy. Nuclear fission, the type of reaction currently used in commercial power plants, splits heavy atoms like uranium and releases some of the excess energy stored as mass in the uranium atoms. Scientists have been eager to harness fusion as an energy source, because unlike fission, fusion uses readily available raw material as fuel and produces fewer radioactive waste products.

The experiments performed by the Science researchers suggest that nuclear fusion might occur in bubbles created by “acoustic cavitation,” a phenomenon studied for nearly a century. In acoustic cavitation, the pressure of a sound wave creates and collapses bubbles in a liquid. The first part of the wave is a tension wave, which stretches the liquid and pulls apart a space for bubbles to form when the liquid is bombarded by energetic particles like neutrons. A second compression wave follows close behind, squeezing and bursting the bubbles, which then emit a brilliant but extremely brief flash of light called sonoluminescence.

Yes I heard this today. They were talking up to $80 a barrel!!!! What a joke. Time to buy into the energy stocks I guess. This is such a damn joke though. How about we say FU OPEC. Turn our attention toward getting the west off oil dependency? Sounds like a good idea to me.
Do you see the irony in all of this? Your country has spent $150 Billion invading an oil rich country (Iraq), to help secure America's future supply, when they could have invested that money in developing more fuel efficent or alternative fuel vehicles in the US. Hence no need to invade Iraq.

But the big oil companies might not like that idea too much?

I misread this thread's title as "Oil Princes May be Heading for Monstrous Spike".
:D

Do you see the irony in all of this? Your country has spent $150 Billion invading an oil rich country (Iraq), to help secure America's future supply, when they could have invested that money in developing more fuel efficent or alternative fuel vehicles in the US. Hence no need to invade Iraq.

But the big oil companies might not like that idea too much?

Believe it or not, but there was more to invading Iraq than the fact that they're an oil rich country and we have big oil companies in the USA. Otherwise you'd be right, but of course it goes without saying that military operations on that scale do not turn out profits.

The higher the oil prices, the better. The day cars will no longer be driven because of high oil prices will be a good day for the environment, and our lungs.
Though we'd still have to find a way to stop using oil to power our food supply too...its virtually connected with everything, oil. And if it goes, the life we know right now will be no more. Oh yes, I believe we'll survive. We'd ust live very differently.

-Asylum Nova

The higher the oil prices, the better. The day cars will no longer be driven because of high oil prices will be a good day for the environment, and our lungs.
Though we'd still have to find a way to stop using oil to power our food supply too...its virtually connected with everything, oil. And if it goes, the life we know right now will be no more. Oh yes, I believe we'll survive. We'd ust live very differently.
Perhaps a complex and well-funded public transportation system? Trains, subways, monorails, trolleys, buses? The trains in Japan are magnifique. The only problem is that America is a massive country, and that kind of infrastructure development would be a HUGE project. Perhaps too big for our government.

The problem with hydrogen fuel cells, for instance, is that you need energy (quite a bit, I believe) to produce them. Whether it takes more energy from an oil powered energy plant to produce one then it takes oil to fuel a car, I don't know. Maybe we should invest in nuclear power.

Yes. Some people don't know this, but the proposed hydrgoen solution is not a new source of energy, it is just a new method of transprting energy efficiently. Oil is both a source and way to transport energy. A hydrogen economy would have to rely on some other source to get the energy to create the hydrogen from water, eg nuclear power. However, before we start making hydrogen fuel cell cars, which is rather difficult, it would be better if oil-burning power plants were replaced with cleaner, renewable energy.

Go Nuclear Energy! :cool:

Doesn't anybody think that insane oil prices might be fun? Come on now, Mad Max was an awesome movie. I'll just set up Thunderdome and rule the post apocalyptic world with roving gang of mutants.

I'll just set up Thunderdome and rule the post apocalyptic world with roving gang of mutants.
Will you power your city with pig crap?

This is exactly what we need. High oil prices will encourage investment elsewhere. However, it does dismay me that OPEC is inflating its prices. In a truely free market, oil would be closer to $20 a barrel. Otherwise, OPEC would have no reason to exist.
The free market is about the free market of capital. It means this OPEC is free to sell the oil at any price they feel like selling it. That's the US version of the free market.
When Microsoft stops copyrighting its monopoly software, the US will be in a position to tell the OPEC to stop inflating their price.

The higher, the better. *nod*

It'd finally provide an incentive for alternative fuel resources.

What I find very funny is that over here, we're going to notice it much less than you. Most of our gasoline prices are taxes. So if the oil price doubles, we're going to have far less than a 50% increase. :D

On NPR the other day they were talkign about how they figured out soem sort of easy table top nuclear fusion

I'll try to find information on it if ya want.

There is energy everywhere, we just ened to find new ways to make use of it.

People figure that one out nearly every other week. Like UFO sightings. -_-

Apparently, Cold Fusion is a religious belief (http://slate.msn.com/id/1005954)...

Now if oil prices went up that quickly, and enough people deserted the roads, maybe the NSW state government would actually get off it's rear and fix Sydney's rail system...

Of course it'd still take alot to get them to do anything...

It is not like americans don't have the money to pay for it.

It's not just an American problem.

There are many who predicted the peak of global oil production (based on the concept of Hubbard's Peak).

From here on out, the total global production of oil is only going to drop. We've just crossed over the tip of the peak.

That means that although demand is still increasing (as more and more of the world becomes developed), the supply is not going to keep up.

Now, if you've imagined instability in the world up to this point, you haven't seen anything yet.

Oh, and yes, eventually countries will pay for their oil with military force - countries that can't pay for it in that manner will be starved completely of oil.

It is not like americans don't have the money to pay for it.

Well, actually they don't. The government, one of the largest consumers of oil, has a small thing called a deficit to worry about. Increasing oil prices just make this worse.

Go here:
http://dieoff.org/

It's not just an American problem. If you think your civilization will survive in a world without fossil fuels, think again.

Oh, and after the oil runs out, and certain nations have to resort to creating gas and oil from coal and shale, which countries do you think will have any oil left at all?

Oh, I believe that would be North America. But even that will run out.

And long before it runs out completely, there will be world war and unimaginable, uninterrupted, and unmitigated chaos far beyond anything the world has seen before.

If, for instance, there isn't enough oil to produce fertilizer (which produces most of the world's food), how many people do you think would starve to death in a year?

This is exactly what we need. High oil prices will encourage investment elsewhere. However, it does dismay me that OPEC is inflating its prices. In a truely free market, oil would be closer to $20 a barrel. Otherwise, OPEC would have no reason to exist.
What mechanism is inflating the price of oil beyond $20/barrel?

Believe it or not, but there was more to invading Iraq than the fact that they're an oil rich country and we have big oil companies in the USA. Otherwise you'd be right, but of course it goes without saying that military operations on that scale do not turn out profits.
Actually, it doesn't go without saying. A lot of people think war is profitable. They're wrong, of course, but they do think that.

It is not like americans don't have the money to pay for it.
Where do you live? Do you know that some Americans drive as far as 90 miles 1 way to work? If you're talking about the US government's money (http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/), you really don't know what you're talking about.

It is not like americans don't have the money to pay for it.
Which justifies $2+ gas prices how? And that will be in the SOUTH where gas is cheap, god knows what it will be in the north. The price is already flirting with $2, if it hits 3 the shit's gonna hit the fan

Well, actually they don't. The government, one of the largest consumers of oil, has a small thing called a deficit to worry about. Increasing oil prices just make this worse.
And don't forget about the trade deficit. More US dollars (federal reserve notes) are leaving the country than entering. We print dollars and send them to China in return for usable stuff. They can't buy anything with those dollars because we don't make anything, so they buy US government bonds, which are redeemable in US dollars. Again, they can't buy anything with those dollars. And we're also sending this mostly worthless paper to OPEC to in return for oil. Soon, they'll stop accepting dollars. Actually, if I remember right, Iraq was about to try selling oil for gold or euros before the President launched a war against them. The official US government plan to deal with peak oil is to use military force. It should be obvious by now that this won't work.

What mechanism is inflating the price of oil beyond $20/barrel?

That's a good question. And the answer is NOT Opec... Opec's target is in the mid $30's per barrel.

The technology exists to make oil and natural gas from organic garbage. I hope the price of oil does go to $80/barrel. It would motivate people to start using the technology we already have, and become energy self-sufficient.

The technology exists to make oil and natural gas from organic garbage. I hope the price of oil does go to $80/barrel. It would motivate people to start using the technology we already have, and become energy self-sufficient.
I wouldn't put any money on that

I wouldn't put any money on that

Neither would I. We're coming up on the end of the hydrocarbon era.

http://dieoff.org/page125.htm

Just like the vignette at the beginning of the movie, The Road Warrior.

I wouldn't put any money on that
Why not? It's cheaper than $80/barrel oil, and we wouldn't have to change the energy infrastructure much.

Why not? It's cheaper than $80/barrel oil, and we wouldn't have to change the energy infrastructure much.

It takes energy to change things into a usable form. So far, there's little that beats gasoline in terms of a concentrated, storable, portable high energy fuel.

So we're going to convert garbage into oil. That takes energy. While you will end up with fuel, you may end up expending more energy than is left in the resulting product.

Additionally, there isn't enough garbage to produce enough oil to satisfy industrial demand.

It's not purely a matter of costs - as an example, when the supply of oil gets low enough in a particular oil field, it becomes prohibitive from an energy standpoint to try and get the last 10 percent out of it. You end up expending more energy trying to get it out than you get in terms of raw portable energy.

It takes energy to change things into a usable form. So far, there's little that beats gasoline in terms of a concentrated, storable, portable high energy fuel.

So we're going to convert garbage into oil. That takes energy. While you will end up with fuel, you may end up expending more energy than is left in the resulting product.

Additionally, there isn't enough garbage to produce enough oil to satisfy industrial demand.

It's not purely a matter of costs - as an example, when the supply of oil gets low enough in a particular oil field, it becomes prohibitive from an energy standpoint to try and get the last 10 percent out of it. You end up expending more energy trying to get it out than you get in terms of raw portable energy.
No, it's a pretty efficient process. You get back significantly more energy than you put in. www.changingworldtech.com

The technology exists to make oil and natural gas from organic garbage. I hope the price of oil does go to $80/barrel. It would motivate people to start using the technology we already have, and become energy self-sufficient.

Hold on, there's technology to do a lot of things, but that doesn't make them cost effective.

I looked at Hybrid cars. They may use less gas, but the higher costs more than make up for any savings you may get - Even with gas at $2/gal, even after the tax deductions, you almost break even after about 100,000 miles - And then with a hybrid, you are looking at a battery replacement cost in the $7,000 range!

Until it becomes cost effective to us an alternative energy souce, we will run on fossil fuels. And even at $80/barrel, the price of oil isn't high enough to push that change.

No, it's a pretty efficient process. You get back significantly more energy than you put in. www.changingworldtech.com

What would help would be coming up with a microbe that uses sunlight to turn just about anything into oil.

Messy, but if you could contain it, very nice.

Hold on, there's technology to do a lot of things, but that doesn't make them cost effective.

I looked at Hybrid cars. They may use less gas, but the higher costs more than make up for any savings you may get - Even with gas at $2/gal, even after the tax deductions, you almost break even after about 100,000 miles - And then with a hybrid, you are looking at a battery replacement cost in the $7,000 range!

Until it becomes cost effective to us an alternative energy souce, we will run on fossil fuels. And even at $80/barrel, the price of oil isn't high enough to push that change.
But this is cost effective. Agricultural waste alone can generate up to 4 billion barrels of oil annually. Not only would the companies producing the oil be able to make money from energy, but also they could make money by charging people for waste disposal services. All they have to do is charge a little less than landfills.

But this is cost effective. Agricultural waste alone can generate up to 4 billion barrels of oil annually. Not only would the companies producing the oil be able to make money from energy, but also they could make money by charging people for waste disposal services. All they have to do is charge a little less than landfills.

You're expending energy to gather the material together for processing.

With oil, you have it concentrated in a few locations - garbage is scattered everywhere.

After production, the distribution system is the same.

So there's a larger energy expenditure to collect garbage. Ideally, if you're selling the oil from garbage, you'll be paying people for their garbage, not charging them to take it off their hands.

You're expending energy to gather the material together for processing.

With oil, you have it concentrated in a few locations - garbage is scattered everywhere.

After production, the distribution system is the same.

So there's a larger energy expenditure to collect garbage. Ideally, if you're selling the oil from garbage, you'll be paying people for their garbage, not charging them to take it off their hands.
If you want to maximize profit you charge for waste disposal services. Just charge less than landfills do.

Oil wont become excessively expensive because althought its elasticity of demand is small, it exists nonetheless.

If oil ever does become 80$ a barrel, you can be absolutely certain that it will be at a time when inflation and other factors have made it possible for most consumers to still afford it.

The free market is about the free market of capital. It means this OPEC is free to sell the oil at any price they feel like selling it. That's the US version of the free market.
When Microsoft stops copyrighting its monopoly software, the US will be in a position to tell the OPEC to stop inflating their price.
The thing is that anyone can create a startup to compete with Microsoft. There are no gurantees, but it can happen. OPEC, on the other hand, is an international coaliition of state oil firms, all monopolies that can arrest people for competing in their countries. That is the epitome of unfair.

What mechanism is inflating the price of oil beyond $20/barrel?
Price targets and fixing of all kind. They constantly sell oil at an inflated price, and let it succumb to market forces from there. But they do have a red line price, or else OPEC would never need to exist.
Edit: They never build as much production as can be handled. Otherwise, Saudi Arabia would not need to build new refineries or drill new wells, just like they are doing now.

It's not just an American problem.

There are many who predicted the peak of global oil production (based on the concept of Hubbard's Peak).

From here on out, the total global production of oil is only going to drop. We've just crossed over the tip of the peak.

That means that although demand is still increasing (as more and more of the world becomes developed), the supply is not going to keep up.

Now, if you've imagined instability in the world up to this point, you haven't seen anything yet.

Oh, and yes, eventually countries will pay for their oil with military force - countries that can't pay for it in that manner will be starved completely of oil.

I'm not that pessimistic. When the peak comes in about a decade, the alternative fuel market will take off at nearly the same speed that the internet did last decade. I'm not saying that a new energy infrastructure will appear overnight, but large companies will find it favorable to invest significant quantities into alternative fuel resources, and natural gas will be big. In fact, many predict natural gas to replace oil as the primary fuel source by 2025.

Why is it a joke?

Everybody is in a hurry to market in China. As the economy builds there, guess what they are going to buy more of......
Remember, though, this OPEC minister thinks that it will be short term, and only during a supply disruption, like another Hurricane Ivan, or a strike in Venezuela.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=3&article_id=13140
$80/barrel may come within two years. Thoughts?

I think that would likely make this come about a bit quicker...

http://kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

Oh, and yes, eventually countries will pay for their oil with military force - countries that can't pay for it in that manner will be starved completely of oil.
Hence the NEED for the US to invade Iraq. The US is just positionning themselves to protect America's future oil supplies. Control the oil, then you control the world is probably their motivation.

Hopefully, when the US does control the oil, the rest of the world will have developed an alternative fuel source that is not only cheaper, but is renewable and with little or no damage to the environment. Arguably, there are already alternative fuel sources and vehicles in place. Now all we need is for the world to move forward on this progressive agenda.

I hope USA starts another oil war, in order to make people *think* if it's worth it to have an important resource controlled by an unstable region.

It is possible to make biodiesel in large scale, if the political will is found. For example, the Neste NExBTL technology produces *better* diesel than can be distilled from oil. Rapeseed oil contains pure diesel-grade hydrocarbons, which are in the form of fatty acids. Catalytic destruction of the fatty acid functional group produces the diesel. The process is otherwise OK, but: the main source of pollution is producing and transporting the raw materials, and currently this is larger than for oil derivatives.

But, if we used only biodiesel and applied some know-how in industrial management to the process, this would not be a problem.

It is possible to make biodiesel in large scale, if the political will is found. For example, the Neste NExBTL technology produces *better* diesel than can be distilled from oil. Rapeseed oil contains pure diesel-grade hydrocarbons, which are in the form of fatty acids. Catalytic destruction of the fatty acid functional group produces the diesel. The process is otherwise OK, but: the main source of pollution is producing and transporting the raw materials, and currently this is larger than for oil derivatives.

But, if we used only biodiesel and applied some know-how in industrial management to the process, this would not be a problem.

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=829

DISCOVER Vol. 24 No. 5 (May 2003)
Table of Contents

Anything into Oil
Technological savvy could turn 600 million tons of turkey guts and other
waste into 4 billion barrels of light Texas crude each year
By Brad Lemley
Photography by Tony Law

Gory refuse, from a Butterball Turkey plant in Carthage, Missouri, will no
longer go to waste. Each day 200 tons of turkey offal will be carted to the
first industrial-scale thermal depolymerization plant, recently completed in
an adjacent lot, and be transformed into various useful products, including
600 barrels of light oil.

In an industrial park in Philadelphia sits a new machine that can change
almost anything into oil.
Really.

"This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind,"
says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the
company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first
industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the
world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can
slow down global warming."
Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that
sounds too good to be true.
"Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur
who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and
deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal
depolymerization process, or TDP. The process is designed to handle almost
any waste product imaginable, including turkey offal, tires, plastic
bottles, harbor-dredged muck, old computers, municipal garbage, cornstalks,
paper-pulp effluent, infectious medical waste, oil-refinery residues, even
biological weapons such as anthrax spores. According to Appel, waste goes in
one end and comes out the other as three products, all valuable and
environmentally benign: high-quality oil, clean-burning gas, and purified
minerals that can be used as fuels, fertilizers, or specialty chemicals for
manufacturing.
Unlike other solid-to-liquid-fuel processes such as cornstarch into
ethanol, this one will accept almost any carbon-based feedstock. If a
175-pound man fell into one end, he would come out the other end as 38
pounds of oil, 7 pounds of gas, and 7 pounds of minerals, as well as 123
pounds of sterilized water. While no one plans to put people into a thermal
depolymerization machine, an intimate human creation could become a prime
feedstock. "There is no reason why we can't turn sewage, including human
excrement, into a glorious oil," says engineer Terry Adams, a project
consultant. So the city of Philadelphia is in discussion with Changing World
Technologies to begin doing exactly that.
"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical
engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're
not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of
oil all over the world."
"This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf
Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former
Bell Laboratories director.
The offal-derived oil, is chemically almost identical to a number two fuel
oil used to heat homes.

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=829

Andreassen and others anticipate that a large chunk of the world's
agricultural, industrial, and municipal waste may someday go into thermal
depolymerization machines scattered all over the globe. If the process works
as well as its creators claim, not only would most toxic waste problems
become history, so would imported oil. Just converting all the U.S.
agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of 4
billion barrels of oil annually. In 2001 the United States imported 4.2
billion barrels of oil. Referring to U.S. dependence on oil from the
volatile Middle East, R. James Woolsey, former CIA director and an adviser
to Changing World Technologies, says, "This technology offers a beginning of
a way away from this."

But first things first. Today, here at the plant at Philadelphia's Naval
Business Center, the experimental feedstock is turkey processing-plant
waste: feathers, bones, skin, blood, fat, guts. A forklift dumps 1,400
pounds of the nasty stuff into the machine's first stage, a 350-horsepower
grinder that masticates it into gray brown slurry. From there it flows into
a series of tanks and pipes, which hum and hiss as they heat, digest, and
break down the mixture. Two hours later, a white-jacketed technician turns a
spigot. Out pours a honey-colored fluid, steaming a bit in the cold
warehouse as it fills a glass beaker.
It really is a lovely oil.
"The longest carbon chains are C-18 or so," says Appel, admiring the
liquid. "That's a very light oil. It is essentially the same as a mix of
half fuel oil, half gasoline."
Private investors, who have chipped in $40 million to develop the
process, aren't the only ones who are impressed. The federal government has
granted more than $12 million to push the work along. "We will be able to
make oil for $8 to $12 a barrel," says Paul Baskis, the inventor of the
process. "We are going to be able to switch to a carbohydrate economy."

http://kantor.com/usatoday/thermal_depolymerization.shtml

Follow-Ups

A few people have written to be asking the same (or a similar question) regarding the efficiency of the TDP process.

Specifically: How much energy is used to power it? Does it use more energy to process the animal/medical/industrial waste than it gets back in oil? (If so, that would make TDP a terrific waste-disposal system, but not a good energy producer.)

Jason Preiser was the first to question this. He wrote:

The key fact you fail to mention in your article for USAToday is that creating one barrel of oil from TPD requires 1.15 barrels of oil! The idea that it will somehow enable us to 'get off foreign oil' is completely fallacious.
The way I read it, 85% efficiency means that for every 100 BTUs I put in (to convert the waste), I recover 85 BTUs worth of energy.
This turns out not to be the case. According to the company, about 15 percent of the fuel that comes out of a TDP plant is used to power the plant itself -- the other 85 percent is new energy. So if a TDP plant generated 100,000 BTUs worth of oil, it would only use about 15,000 BTUs to power the process.

According to Changing Worlds' Terry Adams:

15 Btu's from the original 100 Btu's is used in the process. The other 85 Btu's becomes fuel. Think of a box with 100 Btu's of turkey offal coming in and 100 Btu's of fuel coming out. After the fuel comes out, 15% of it is put back into the process. These Btu's eventually leave as heat. The other 85% is sold as product. Total in = 100 Btu's. Total product out = 85 Btu's. 15 Btu's used in the process.
(For you purists, he does point out that "Turkey offal is not really a good fuel so the '100 Btu's in' is only a theoretical value.")

He also wrote:

Another way of looking at this is that 85 BTU's of fuel is generated for each 15 BTU's used in the TCP process, a ratio of 5.7 units of fuel for each unit of energy consumed by the process...not a bad payback!

A couple of people also questioned TDPs efficiency in terms of the laws of physics -- you know, energy cannot be created or destroyed. One was Mark Ellison who wrote, "It takes energy to turn garbage into oil using TDP, and, of course, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics tells us that the energy content of the oil so obtained will be less than the energy used to create it."

Create, yes. But the energy in, say, turkey offal is created when the animals eat and drink. It's stored in their bodies. The energy content of the oil obtained through TDP is less than or equal to the energy used to to create it (e.g., turkey food and water), but greater than the energy used to extract it. That's what makes it an exciting energy source.

The bottom line: TDP produces more energy from the garbage that's thrown into the 'hopper' than is used to power the process.

Guys, I find that the conversation on "alternative" fuels is excessive. I feel that it is a deviation from the topic.

Guys, I find that the conversation on "alternative" fuels is excessive. I feel that it is a deviation from the topic.

Not sure how being able to turn all of our waste into Oil that will be able to eliminate our need for foreign imports isn't "relative" to a forecast of a spike in Oil prices, but you are entitled to YOUR OPINION, just as we are...

Regards,
Gaar

Not sure how being able to turn all of our waste into Oil that will be able to eliminate our need for foreign imports isn't "relative" to a forecast of a spike in Oil prices, but you are entitled to YOUR OPINION, just as we are...

I just think it is a bit excessive talk.

I just think it is a bit excessive talk.

So you ask how we will deal with $80/Barrel Oil, and you are shown how our waste can be turned into $10 - $15 / Barrel Oil and you think it is excessive talk?

I suppose you were hoping that others would feed into your doom and gloom predictions and help you talk about the end of the World, or better yet the end of the U.S. Economy?

What did YOU expect people to talk about with the question YOU asked?

Regards,
Gaar

So you ask how we will deal with $80/Barrel Oil, and you are shown how our waste can be turned into $10 - $15 / Barrel Oil and you think it is excessive talk?

I suppose you were hoping that others would feed into your doom and gloom predictions and help you talk about the end of the World, or better yet the end of the U.S. Economy?

What did YOU expect people to talk about with the question YOU asked?
I expect to here sob stories. Besides, these things are not my predictions, but those of others. I do not see anything as doom and gloom, and if no oil were to exist tommarow, I wouldn't be angry. Everything reaches equilibrium sooner or later.

Hence the NEED for the US to invade Iraq. The US is just positionning themselves to protect America's future oil supplies. Control the oil, then you control the world is probably their motivation.

Hopefully, when the US does control the oil, the rest of the world will have developed an alternative fuel source that is not only cheaper, but is renewable and with little or no damage to the environment. Arguably, there are already alternative fuel sources and vehicles in place. Now all we need is for the world to move forward on this progressive agenda.

So far, there is no alternative to fossil fuel sources (other than nuclear power) that fulfills the role of both industrial needs (such as the power required to produce aluminum) or transportation needs (at this point, no one has both the complete fuel cell replacement for trucks and cars as well as the hydrogen infrastructure that could replace petroleum fuels).

Long before the oil runs out - long before the US and EU succeed with nuclear fusion (not fission) - everyone will still need oil.

Even if all power was produced by some other means - and all transportation was made possible by another power source - world food production would drop by more than half without petroleum-based fertilizers.

You can stop driving, but you still have to eat. While more advanced nations may take measures to keep feeding their own populations, I would bet that some less advanced nations would starve to death in numbers that have no historical precedent.