NationStates Jolt Archive

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)


A high school teacher in Brick, NJ pulled a chair from under a student after the student refused to stand for the national anthem. The school suspended one student for filming the incident, but has yet to punish the teacher.

What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.

Although I have no respect for the student, he has his rights, and the teacher violated them.

The link doesnt work

A kid in my school refused to stand for remembering the lives lost on September 11th. Talk about disrespectful.

The link doesn't work.

In any case.

In Virginia, you can remain silent during the Pledge. If you don't stand up, no one will make you, but the social onus (i.e., you'll stick out like an octaroon in a snow bank) will be all on you - don't blame the people who are standing.

As for filming - it's not legal to film, record, or photograph anything on school property here without the express permission of the principal. In fact, to get that permission, the principal has to ask the parents of each member of the class for a release.

I sign those releases all the time - for simple things like kid's shows.

Personally, if you don't want to stand for the Pledge or National Anthem, that's ok with me. I put my life on the line a while back so that your asscrack would be well supported - and so you wouldn't have to lift a finger to keep your freedom.

The link doesnt work
fixed

Jay sounds like my brother.

:rolleyes:

Personally, if you don't want to stand for the Pledge or National Anthem, that's ok with me. I put my life on the line a while back so that your asscrack would be well supported - and so you wouldn't have to lift a finger to keep your freedom.

I would also add that I would go out of my way to exercise my First Amendment right to tell you what an asshole you were.

Wow...I think that teacher is way out of line and if it were my kid he treated in that unprofessional manner.....he'd be meeting me outside on the playground at recess. :mad:

I think it's moronic. If your not a patriot, surely it's more respectful to be honest about it rather than paying false tribute.

Regardless of the situation, you can't pull a chair out from under a student. Teacher should be suspended w/o pay. Sounds like a case of over-patriotic teacher who needed a longer February break. :rolleyes:

And, as Whispering Legs said, you can't film on school property without a gazillion permissions. Student should be suspended, as long as that is part of the rules and regs each student gets the beginning of the year.

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)

What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.
No, although the teacher shouldn't have done such a thing.

I personally want to cut off the arse of that teacher.

And, as Whispering Legs said, you can't film on school property without a gazillion permissions. Student should be suspended, as long as that is part of the rules and regs each student gets the beginning of the year.
I agree with that and I have no beef with the student being suspended. But I find it weird that the students gets his punishment and the teacher goes scott-free. I mean, if the evidence can be used in one case, surely it can be used in a case against the teacher.

Look there is more to this story than that.

I've watched the audio/video of this event and the student was talking, snickering, and basically trying to get the teacher to loose it.

I don't care if someone doesn't stand for the pledge but be respectful and shut the hell up while it's going on. Teachers need to stand up for themselves occasionally. Yes students have rights but so do teachers. If they can't have atleast some say in how their classroom is run then there's no reason for anyone to bother showing up to class because nothing will be learned.

You can go here and watch the incident for yourselves
http://www.mjmorningshow.com/timages/page/media/142188_mantelchairincident.wmv

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.

Schools should not force kids to say or not say the national anthem, the teacher went too far.

The student had every right to sit through the pledge (actually, the national anthem). All other students and teachers have a right to let him know that he just looked like an attention-starved rebel without a clue.
Where the teacher screwed up was by initiating force by pulling his chair out from underneath him. Bad move. And he should be punished for his emotional kneejerk reaction during the power trip he was on at the time.

You don't have to stand during the Pledge.

But since you obviously don't give a damn, we should revoke your citizenship. No skin off your back, right?

I'm tired of the fate of the nation resting in the hands of idiots.

I will have to say that the teacher definately violated the student's right to be an ignorant moron. I am a disabled navy veteran from the war in Iraq...and I will continue to fight for people's right not to be patriotic. It is important that we protect our mentally challenged, and this teacher obviously over stepped his bounds by yanking the chair out from under this retarded boy.

Wow...I think that teacher is way out of line and if it were my kid he treated in that unprofessional manner.....he'd be meeting me outside on the playground at recess. :mad:

Ya, unless this is a military school that psycho has no business in a classroom.

Absolutely ridiculous. What kind of country do we live in?

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.
My opinion - as a 53 year old citizen of the United States who has served over 29 years (4 years Army, 3 years Reserve, 22 years National Guard), and been a Cub Scout Leader (9 years) , Little League Coach (5 years), Member of the School Board (9 years) etc.

1. Teacher should be in big trouble.

2. Student who filmed the incident should be apologized to by whoever punished him/her.

3. Student who refused to stand should be required to leave the room when the national anthem is played if he/she refuses to stand.

Standing for the national anthem is considered to be a sign of respect, such as addressing the teacher as "Mr. Smith" or "Mrs. Jones". To the extent that impolite/rude behavior is punished in that particular school district the student should be punished. To the extent that impolite/rude behavior in that particular school district is condoned/ignored, the student's behavior should be condoned/ignored.

Final thought - when school age children are punished for their behavior, often it is behavior learned in the home. One must be a bit careful about the contradictions one creates in a youngsters mind regarding what is right/wrong at home vs what is right/wrong at school. In my opinion, this is something that should be left alone.

Look there is more to this story than that.

I've watched the audio/video of this event and the student was talking, snickering, and basically trying to get the teacher to loose it.

I don't care if someone doesn't stand for the pledge but be respectful and shut the hell up while it's going on. Teachers need to stand up for themselves occasionally. Yes students have rights but so do teachers. If they can't have atleast some say in how their classroom is run then there's no reason for anyone to bother showing up to class because nothing will be learned.

You can go here and watch the incident for yourselves
http://www.mjmorningshow.com/timages/page/media/142188_mantelchairincident.wmv

Well, if I had been the teacher, I would have walked his ass down to the principal's office and let him/her deal with it.

I might have beat his ass after school, but it would have been off school grounds, and in private.

You don't have to stand during the Pledge.

But since you obviously don't give a damn, we should revoke your citizenship. No skin off your back, right?

I'm tired of the fate of the nation resting in the hands of idiots.

The problem is that rights are absolute, not contingent upon citizenship. Nor is citizenship a privilege. You can't take away citizenship just because you think someone else doesn't have respect for what it means to be American. For you to do so means that YOU have no respect for what it means to be an American.

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.

S/he way overstepped his bounds.

Let's remember who the adult is supposed to be in this scenario, and who is the child.

The kid is showing disrespect, and as I say above that should be handled in the same way the school district would handle any other form of disrespect shown by a student in school - but the teacher simply went too far.

Absolutely ridiculous. What kind of country do we live in?

One in which it apears that everyone jumps to defend the right of a socially challenged moron to deliberately insult those around him.

It does not matter if you are a patriot or not, if you are in a social situation where showing respect to the feelings of others matters, which as far as I know describes all social situations, then to deliberately disrespect the local customs is ignorant and insulting.

If you were required by your family to attend a church service you would not disrespect the beliefs of those around you, so why are you defending this Jay (from Jay and Silent Bob, perhaps) for doing exactly this.

The teacher overreacted, but we have no knowledge of the history of this Jay's or the rest of the class' behaviour. The teacher can be sued by Jay for assault, if Jay thinks that he has a case. If not, then he knows he was wrong.

My opinion - as a 53 year old citizen of the United States who has served over 29 years (4 years Army, 3 years Reserve, 22 years National Guard), and been a Cub Scout Leader (9 years) , Little League Coach (5 years), Member of the School Board (9 years) etc.

Nice resumé.

I'm curious, what did you expect we'd think of it?

Well, if I had been the teacher, I would have walked his ass down to the principal's office and let him/her deal with it.

Unless you work in a tiny tiny school principles are never supposed to be handed discipline problems. That's what security guards are for.

I might have beat his ass after school, but it would have been off school grounds, and in private.

So instead of getting fired for breaking school policy you'd be arrested for assault and battery of a minor.

You're making way too much out of thing when you think that people deserve to be punished for feelings that don't actually affect anything in any tangible way.

This isn't communist China or fascist Germany where children have to be brainwashed from day one to give mind body and soul to the state because otherwise they'll see what a piece of shit it is.

In any free society you're going to have a wide range of opinions, it's like the social equivilant of checks and balances. You'll have KKK museums in the south, you'll have gay pride parades in the big cities. Everywhere you'll have some sort of extreme ideology and the net result is that you've got a whole bunch of people in the middle who are perfectly reasonable surrounded by a nice fringe of lunatics.

You only have to intervene when people start getting violent, like when the KKK goes hunting, people start throwing rocks at the gay pride marchers or when this psychotic teacher thinks that school children need to be assaulted for not being overwhelmed by patriotic ecstacy because of a war poem sung to the tune of a 200 year old drinking song about the pagan god of wine. Of course the kids an asshole, he's a teenage boy. What's the grown man's excuse?

I'm curious, what did you expect we'd think of it?
I'd pretty much expected what I've got.

I wanted to see a discussion over this and it seems I've got one. I targetted it at Americans because, well, it's an American subject using american rights and all. I felt that a title like the one I used was attention-grabbing enough yet was not an attack or flame-bait.

If you don't want to say the pledge fine. Just don't disrupt the class. Forced patriotism is worse than none at all. But this teacher needs to be fired. Possibly prosecuted. I hardly thing the teachers actions made the kid more patriotic.

If you don't want to say the pledge fine. Just don't disrupt the class. Forced patriotism is worse than none at all. But this teacher needs to be fired. Possibly prosecuted. I hardly thing the teachers actions made the kid more patriotic.

Very true... but he might think twice before being disrespectful to that teacher.

This in my mind is more of an issue of respect, not patriotism. Patriotism is nice and all but respect is EXTREMELY important. It's the most important thing in a civilized nation in fact.

This boy had no respect for anything. The teacher should get in trouble but not fired. The kid needs to be punished as well.

Very true... but he might think twice before being disrespectful to that teacher.

This in my mind is more of an issue of respect, not patriotism. Patriotism is nice and all but respect is EXTREMELY important. It's the most important thing in a civilized nation in fact.

This boy had no respect for anything. The teacher should get in trouble but not fired. The kid needs to be punished as well.
Um, do you realize how much respect yanking a chair out from someone earns you? Negative. The only people who have more respect for that Teacher are the overzealous patriots and the bullies. (Since its new jersey, I'm leaning towards more of the later)
Also, someone said that security guards handle discipline at his school?
Where the hell do you live that your school has security guardS.
I went to the largest highschool (1000+ students) in the area, we had ONE security guard, and the most he did for discipline was give me lunch detention for bringing lunch from off campus (on a delayed start day no less)

I'd pretty much expected what I've got.

I wanted to see a discussion over this and it seems I've got one. I targetted it at Americans because, well, it's an American subject using american rights and all. I felt that a title like the one I used was attention-grabbing enough yet was not an attack or flame-bait.
Cool. I was just hoping you didn't expect us to endorse the teacher's actions. Sometimes I get the impression on this board that non-Americans expect us to be ignorant, hypocritical jackasses.

Um, do you realize how much respect yanking a chair out from someone earns you? Negative. The only people who have more respect for that Teacher are the overzealous patriots and the bullies. (Since its new jersey, I'm leaning towards more of the later)

Hey, I've got an idea, why don't you quit badmouthing NJ. We're a very patriotic state. Hell, the people of NJ fought to establish this country.

If you don't want to say the pledge fine. Just don't disrupt the class. Forced patriotism is worse than none at all. But this teacher needs to be fired. Possibly prosecuted. I hardly thing the teachers actions made the kid more patriotic.

I agree that the teacher overstepped the line, but I think its a little hasty to fire him for one incident. He could be otherwise an excellent teacher, who just got a little over patriotic. He should get warning that any future incidents will lead to his being fired no questions asked, maybe.

As far as prosecuting goes, i think that's ridiculous, and one of the things I really dislike about america is how quick people are to make everything a legal issue.

A kid in my school refused to stand for remembering the lives lost on September 11th. Talk about disrespectful.

Dissention is probably the most important part of democracy and free speech. It's easy to welcome free speech for view you like, but free speech means allowing specifically those views you dispise. Because, if you are not in favor of that, you aren't in favor of free speech.

And, personally, given the amount of rights that were given up because of the September 11th, maybe he was protesting that... Not disrespecting, or not caring about, the people who lost their lives. It was a great tragedy, and what happened after was even more of a tragedy.

A kid in my school refused to stand for remembering the lives lost on September 11th. Talk about disrespectful.

you had to stand? in my school we had 1 minutes silence..that was it

Hey, I've got an idea, why don't you quit badmouthing NJ. We're a very patriotic state. Hell, the people of NJ fought to establish this country.
I meant no offense. And note, I said "overzealous" a certain amount of patriotism is a good thing. But here in South Carolina, we have lots of people who are more along the lines of considering anti-war protestors as guilty of treason.

Dissention is probably the most important part of democracy and free speech. It's easy to welcome free speech for view you like, but free speech means allowing specifically those views you dispise. Because, if you are not in favor of that, you aren't in favor of free speech.

And, personally, given the amount of rights that were given up because of the September 11th, maybe he was protesting that... Not disrespecting, or not caring about, the people who lost their lives. It was a great tragedy, and what happened after was even more of a tragedy.
Well said. (just realized he's currently involved with two topics related to free speech).

I just saw the video and, although I agree that the teacher is wound a bit too tightly, I can't find any fault with him. So he forced him to stand, it's not like he beat the kid to do it, or became physically or verbally abusive. We don't know what kind of stunts the kids try to pull on him periodically either.

First thing that disturbed me was his tone of voice.

I don't like that the kid doesn't want to stand ...but that is his choice :rolleyes:. Plus he's not not standing out of intentional disrespect, but because he's being told he has to, and really he doesn't.

I feel sorry for the teacher. Telling some teens they HAVE to do something is going to bring out the rebellious. If he can't understand that or find a compromise so that he doesn't get so pissed off, then he should probably get out of teaching. He will continue to run into situations similar to this, especially in high school. He will end up getting sued or worse... plus the stress just isnt good for his health.

I just saw the video and, although I agree that the teacher is wound a bit too tightly, I can't find any fault with him. So he forced him to stand, it's not like he beat the kid to do it, or became physically or verbally abusive. We don't know what kind of stunts the kids try to pull on him periodically either.


You didnt find that audio recording verbally abusive?

Unless you work in a tiny tiny school principles are never supposed to be handed discipline problems. That's what security guards are for.



So instead of getting fired for breaking school policy you'd be arrested for assault and battery of a minor.

You're making way too much out of thing when you think that people deserve to be punished for feelings that don't actually affect anything in any tangible way.

This isn't communist China or fascist Germany where children have to be brainwashed from day one to give mind body and soul to the state because otherwise they'll see what a piece of shit it is.

In any free society you're going to have a wide range of opinions, it's like the social equivilant of checks and balances. You'll have KKK museums in the south, you'll have gay pride parades in the big cities. Everywhere you'll have some sort of extreme ideology and the net result is that you've got a whole bunch of people in the middle who are perfectly reasonable surrounded by a nice fringe of lunatics.

You only have to intervene when people start getting violent, like when the KKK goes hunting, people start throwing rocks at the gay pride marchers or when this psychotic teacher thinks that school children need to be assaulted for not being overwhelmed by patriotic ecstacy because of a war poem sung to the tune of a 200 year old drinking song about the pagan god of wine. Of course the kids an asshole, he's a teenage boy. What's the grown man's excuse?

seems sencible but..
security guards in schools? what the...

You didnt find that audio recording verbally abusive?
No. He wasn't calling them names or insulting them otherwise, he was just trying to impose his authority as he has every right to do, perhaps being unwise and ineffective about it, but not abusive in any way.

You didnt find that audio recording verbally abusive?

Sorry, I have no sound. Being verbally abusive to the teacher should result in a warning or suspension.

No. He wasn't calling them names or insulting them otherwise, he was just trying to impose his authority as he has every right to do, perhaps being unwise and ineffective about it, but not abusive in any way.


The volume and tone of that mans voice was inappropriate for a classroom setting. If the kid was being disrespectful and/or disruptive...then he should have been removed from the classroom and sent to the principals office and then a form of punishment should have been administered.Also they should notify the parents....I'd punish my child if they disrespected anyone. But I would not approve or allow anyone to speak to them the way that teacher spoke.

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.

I remember when I was sixth grade class president, and I was impeached for not leading the class in the pledge of allegiance each morning because I didn't believe in it. I told the class that any person who wanted to do the pledge was free to do so, but I would not be leading the pledge. Of course, I was sent to the principal's office, parents called...etc.

After that little dramatic ordeal, I really got into thinking and learning about Anarchy and leftist libertarianism.

The moral, push a kid too far and watch out because that kid might just snap back to the other extreme. Overly patriotic people never realize that they breed a hatred for patriotism in most people they meet simply because of their overly zealous nature.

Everything in moderation :)

The teacher should be fired. I don't care if this was a 'momentary indiscression.' He is trusted with the kids and this, in his judgment, was an appropriate response. It is an indicator, he needs to have more control and stability than those that are in his charge. If it becomes okay to pull the chair from underneath the kid during the anthem it becomes okay for the other kids to wail on that kid later for not being 'patriotic' enough.

I like the assumptions that are lumped on the kid, that he is stupid, retarded, rebel without a clue-everyone is pulling the metaphorical chair from under that kid without care to the cause.

Weak.

seems sencible but..
security guards in schools? what the...


Had 3 security gaurds in my high school. 88-92. the man was ok, but the 2 women were asses. Were always f'ing with me over something. I finally got expelled for smoking a cigerette in the parking lot.

The volume and tone of that mans voice was inappropriate for a classroom setting. If the kid was being disrespectful and/or disruptive...then he should have been removed from the classroom and sent to the principals office and then a form of punishment should have been administered.Also they should notify the parents....I'd punish my child if they disrespected anyone. But I would not approve or allow anyone to speak to them the way that teacher spoke.
At the beggining he's talking to the whole classroom and you can hear how all the students are being disruptive and disrespectful, he has to assert himself somehow.

Life is going to treat your kid much worse than a loud teacher and a visit to the principal's office and you're not going to be there to approve or disapprove.

"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"Oh, my god! How dare he do that! you're the best and most wonderful boy in the world, can't he see that? I'm going to call my lawyer right this instant to have him fired."

Instead:
"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"You should have been quiet."
"Well, but he didn't have to shout at me."
"He's the teacher and you should have quieted down as soon as he asked you too, and not wait until he was shouting at you."
"How do you know I wasn't being quiet before he started shouting."
"Because I was a kid myself."

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.
teacher was totally out of bounds. the Supreme Court has upheld the right of a student to decline to say the Pledge. the teacher should be fired immediately.

security guards in schools? what the...
we had security guards in both my middle school and my high school. the year after i left middle school they authorized the head security guard to begin carrying a firearm (instead of just pepper spray). there was also a big fuss because of video security cameras being installed in the bathrooms.

At the beggining he's talking to the whole classroom and you can hear how all the students are being disruptive and disrespectful, he has to assert himself somehow.

Life is going to treat your kid much worse than a loud teacher and a visit to the principal's office and you're not going to be there to approve or disapprove.

"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"Oh, my god! How dare he do that! you're the best and most wonderful boy in the world, can't he see that? I'm going to call my lawyer right this instant to have him fired."

Instead:
"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"You should have been quiet."
"Well, but he didn't have to shout at me."
"He's the teacher and you should have quieted down as soon as he asked you too, and not wait until he was shouting at you."
"How do you know I wasn't being quiet before he started shouting."
"Because I was a kid myself."
We're not talking shouting, we're talking actually PULLING the chair out from under him. Yes, the teacher can assert his authority, but when it comes to physical bullying, then he should have that authority taken away.

Had 3 security gaurds in my high school. 88-92. the man was ok, but the 2 women were asses. Were always f'ing with me over something. I finally got expelled for smoking a cigerette in the parking lot.
My high school had a smoking section. Class of '89. Weirdness, eh?

we had security guards in both my middle school and my high school. the year after i left middle school they authorized the head security guard to begin carrying a firearm (instead of just pepper spray). there was also a big fuss because of video security cameras being installed in the bathrooms.

in my high school we were lucky to have teachers
in england we dont have security guards in schools..is it that in america people are naturaly violent or that the system doesnt work?..i dont know

we had security guards in both my middle school and my high school. the year after i left middle school they authorized the head security guard to begin carrying a firearm (instead of just pepper spray). there was also a big fuss because of video security cameras being installed in the bathrooms.
Where the hell do you people LIVE? Columbine?

It was more of a power play between a few punks in school and overly aggressive teacher. Any poltical play on this is too far pronounced. Both the students and the teacher deserve some disciplinary resolve, IMO.

"My high school had a smoking section. Class of '89. Weirdness, eh? "




Wish mine would've. The one across town did, maybe I should've transferred.

If a teacher had ever done that to me, or if I had kids, my kids, I would have sued him and the school district, and demanded that he be fired, also. People like this are a hazard to children! They do not belong in situations where they have contact with kids, like school. They belong working in a different occupation, like commercial fishing, for example.

At the beggining he's talking to the whole classroom and you can hear how all the students are being disruptive and disrespectful, he has to assert himself somehow.

Life is going to treat your kid much worse than a loud teacher and a visit to the principal's office and you're not going to be there to approve or disapprove.

"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"Oh, my god! How dare he do that! you're the best and most wonderful boy in the world, can't he see that? I'm going to call my lawyer right this instant to have him fired."

Instead:
"So son, how did it go in school today?"
"The teacher was so mean to me, he kept shouting at me to be quiet."
"You should have been quiet."
"Well, but he didn't have to shout at me."
"He's the teacher and you should have quieted down as soon as he asked you too, and not wait until he was shouting at you."
"How do you know I wasn't being quiet before he started shouting."
"Because I was a kid myself."

Izzy....I certainly dont condone disrespect from children...and yes those students were being disruptive. But that was extreme for a classroom setting. I dont sugar coat things for my kids. If they screw up- I'm the first one to let them know. If they misbehave in school, then of course, the teacher should see that they are corrected and diciplined. But they are also in the position to teach respect....by setting an example. This teacher, screaming and yelling and then pulling the chair out from under the student, in my opinion- was out of line.

basically the teacher over stepped his bounds. it was unprofessional and professionally unethical. the kid wasn't causing a real disturbance so the teacher should have just ignored him. the kid has every right to express his opinion in a way that doesn't harm others. in my opinion he should have at least stood up but you can't go pulling out chairs from under people for not doing what you want them to. if i pulled that shit at work my ass would be fired in a second and i'm not working with children.

if the teacher wants to make his actions a regular occurence he should probably be informed that some religions do not condone saying the pledge and if a student pulled the religion card that teacher could get his liscense revoked. he needs to recieve a stiff and swift reprimand by the school. also he should apologize to the student. he disrespected the student far more than the student did him.

We're not talking shouting, we're talking actually PULLING the chair out from under him. Yes, the teacher can assert his authority, but when it comes to physical bullying, then he should have that authority taken away.
The previous post dealt with the tone of the teacher's voice. About the pulling of the chair, yes, the teacher forced him to stand up, but he didn't use intimidation, excessive force, or threats. That's not bullying. The kid still had the option to remain sitted (and be pulled along with the chair) and he can launch a formal complaint. Or stand up and launch a formal complaint, inform the teacher and principals that it's his right to remain sitted (even if it's just because he doesn't feel like standing up) and that'd be that.

A kid in my school refused to stand for remembering the lives lost on September 11th. Talk about disrespectful.

I kid at my school did the same thing and got his ass beat by like twenty kids after :p

we had security guards in both my middle school and my high school. the year after i left middle school they authorized the head security guard to begin carrying a firearm (instead of just pepper spray). there was also a big fuss because of video security cameras being installed in the bathrooms.


The man security guard at mine carried gun. Actually .. now that i think about it.. he worked for the Sheriffs Dept, a Deputy.

Izzy....I certainly dont condone disrespect from children...and yes those students were being disruptive. But that was extreme for a classroom setting. I dont sugar coat things for my kids. If they screw up- I'm the first one to let them know. If they misbehave in school, then of course, the teacher should see that they are corrected and diciplined. But they are also in the position to teach respect....by setting an example. This teacher, screaming and yelling and then pulling the chair out from under the student, in my opinion- was out of line.
Yes, I'm not saying that the teacher didn't misbehave or that there weren't better ways to handle the situation; there certainly were. But he also didn't do such a poor job that it merits his being fired. We also don't know what that teacher has to go through day after day with this group and this kid. Perhaps if we see an hour of footage instead of just a minute his actions will make a lot more sense.

Every single person that has brought up the First Amendement in this thread is officially stupid, or has never studied the American Public School system well enough to know what they're talking about.

I'll make an outline, and then I'll make my argument. Many of your civil rights are surrendered when you enter a school building. Period.

If you're in high school right now, find that "Student Handbook" they gave you at the beginning of the year. Chances are you threw it in the trash can, that's alright, I did that for the first year, and then I realized that there was some really good info in it. Essentially, that list of rules they put in there is connected with a more general contract which your parents and the school have with each other. Remember that you are indeed a minor and your parents control you in a legal sense (in most cases, let's not talk about divorcing parents or an 18 year old about to graduate). When you step into that school building, it is assumed that you will follow the rules of the handbook you had recieved. In my handbook, the single line 'rules' went from A almost to ZZ. They meticulously (most likely with the help of a lawyer) pointed out every right you have surrendered when you walk into the school. Most of these are in the name of safety, another great deal of them are just in place to try and keep a modicum of respect among a bunch of hormonally charged Rage Against the Machine wannabes that want to piss off the people trying to educate them in any way possible.

I guess the best thing I saw in my public school career was one of these little punks started going off on a rant about the Fourth Amendment being violated when the cops came and searched lockers. Our teacher (who was probably the most liberal teacher in the entire school, mind you. She was a lesbian and vocally opposed a lot of the stuff going on post-9/11 in government in general) got out the handbook, and read it to the class, most specifically the part about "...the School District reserves the right to search any property on school grounds..."

Now I know that isn't the first amendment. But look at Dress Codes. Wearing too much clothing? Detention. Not wearing enough clothing? Detention? Wearing clothing with an 'offensive' symbol on it? Possible suspention. Look at how you can be 'detained' for badmouthing a peer or an educator. Make an artistic piece that is 'vulgar' or 'offensive' as deemed by school officials? That's a detention as well.

As for the camera... that's simply breaking the rules. In all of the schools I know, bringing any electronic device that isn't a calculator into a school building will get your juvenile ass tossed out on the street.

The Teacher did not do anything wrong IN THE LITERAL SENSE. Did he harm that student directly? No. No he didn't. Did that kid fall flat on his ass? No. In a Physics standpoint, he could have moved a chair on the other side of the room and it would have had the same effect. (Yeah, Butterfly effect and Quantum Physics and some such, but in this isolated system, it's improbable that wind currents from a little chair could knock a kid down. They only teach Newtonian physics in high schools anyway :p )


Now, Ethically, I'll agree that his assertation of control was a bit extreme. But he had to assert control somehow. It was perfectly obvious that verbally, the class was out of control and he could not bring the class back down. This teacher pushed the envelope of what he can do in his limits and avoid assaulting a student. To prove that he's willing to push that limit to gain control of the classroom, he earns at least a little bit of fear and respect. I remember once having an eraser tossed at my desk (with considerable force) for not bringing my book to class. Was there an infraction of the law? No. Did I bring the book to class the next day? Hell yes.


Also to the halfwit above me, the student was not required to SAY THE PLEDGE. That was NOT the action in question. He just wanted the kid to stand up. SCOTUS said NOTHING about making kids stand up for the pledge. He just doesn't have to say it.

Yes, I'm not saying that the teacher didn't misbehave or that there weren't better ways to handle the situation; there certainly were. But he also didn't do such a poor job that it merits his being fired. We also don't know what that teacher has to go through day after day with this group and this kid. Perhaps if we see an hour of footage instead of just a minute his actions will make a lot more sense.


I can agree with most of that. But if he is that stressed out, maybe it's time he looked into a new career....or at least took some time off.

link (http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/142004/index.php)



What do you guys think? Has the teacher overstepped his bounds? Is it a case of over-patriotic teacher?

Discuss.

The kid has the right to not stand. It's a free country.

in my opinion he should have at least stood up but you can't go pulling out chairs from under people for not doing what you want them to. if i pulled that shit at work my ass would be fired in a second and i'm not working with children.

You would also be fired if not following company policy.

in my high school we were lucky to have teachers
in england we dont have security guards in schools..is it that in america people are naturaly violent or that the system doesnt work?..i dont know


Not sure why we had security gaurds or that Deputy at my high school. It wasn't violent. Rarely any fights... that I can remember. The fight I do remember was racial. Wasn't any serious injuries besides the guy that got clothselined and had to wear a neck brace for a while.

That kid got owned. XD But anyway, the teacher did wrong and should be punished and the kid should have more respect or move to Canada soon. It's still funny though.

I can agree with most of that. But if he is that stressed out, maybe it's time he looked into a new career....or at least took some time off.
Yeah, but that's a different issue. Teaching is a very stressful career, teachers should be given periodic psychiatric evaluations and be sent to stress management classes, negotiation, etc. And, of course, be given time off or something else to unwind in case they need it.

Asking "what do Americans think of XXX" is asking for every possible answer under the sun. In case you missed it, we're a bit diverse...

Personally, I think the teacher overstepped his bounds, but the kid is a total moron and got what he deserved.

Should they suspend the teacher? Yeah, they'd better. But come on here... A lame excuse to be a disruption is not functionally equivalent to "rights". Nowhere in our constitution or bill of rights does it say "you have the right to be a PITA when the pledge or national anthem is recited/played." We have a place for people with that little respect for our country - out of it.

Like a previous poster, I put my rear on the line not too far back to protect the rights of dunces like this one, but a clear understanding of rights/responsibilities and what is not a right is seriously lacking in this country. Even at the top judicial level we have geniuses that claim burning the flag is somehow "free speech". Yeah, because they needed that, and had no other way to express their views, right?

I might have beat his ass after school, but it would have been off school grounds, and in private.

So instead of getting fired for breaking school policy you'd be arrested for assault and battery of a minor.

Hmmm actually I was thinking that he would find himself in the Emergency Room (instead of up for a talk with the principal) after Jay's dad took a bat to his head. Parents tend to be very protective of their kids.

Teacher was totally out of line. No question about it.

I remember when I was sixth grade class president, and I was impeached for not leading the class in the pledge of allegiance each morning because I didn't believe in it. I told the class that any person who wanted to do the pledge was free to do so, but I would not be leading the pledge. Of course, I was sent to the principal's office, parents called...etc.

After that little dramatic ordeal, I really got into thinking and learning about Anarchy and leftist libertarianism.

The moral, push a kid too far and watch out because that kid might just snap back to the other extreme. Overly patriotic people never realize that they breed a hatred for patriotism in most people they meet simply because of their overly zealous nature.

Everything in moderation :)


Interesting. I was called a Communist in the 9th grade for quoting the Bible of all things. Since after that incident I was branded a Commie, I started learning more about Communism, Marxism, and Socialism (previously I had been politically naive about all forms of government and economics). The more I was attacked the more I defended the position I had been given.

People tend to attack out of fear and create their own monsters, which they then try to destroy them. In fact much of what people call patriotism is actually a disguise for fear. Blind loyalty is viewed as patriotic even though patriotism is based off the principles on which a nation was founded, which in the case of the U.S.A. means dissent would be one of the most patriotic actions one could take.

What's interesting is that many Americans praise their Founding Fathers merely with lip service, and then inssult their memory by persecuting dissenters (which the Founding Fathers technically were). If it weren't group groups of "terrorist" (the British certainly wouldn't have called the colonists freedoms fighters or even patriots for that matter) dissenting against the British Empire, the United States would never have come into being.

As for Moderation... right on mate! Simplicity is the middle way. :)