NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so...

Taiwan wants to seceed from China. As usual. And China has drafted a bill stating if Taiwan secceeds, China will take action. Thats basically whats happening now. So, what do you think?

Personally, I think China should back off of Taiwan, mainly because thats my nationality.

If so much as a single Chinese soldier steps a single toe into Taiwan, we should nuke Beijing.

China can't do jack squat to Tiawan. They can nuke it, but they don't want to do that. They want to conquer it. Their navy is crappy. They can't even carry enough people over to do the job. And we all know that the US would intervene if they tried anything.

I stand by Nationalist China (Taiwan) against mainland China. I would hope we in the US would help Taiwan should China invade but the results of that would be massive and tragic.
I believe Taiwan would be devastated by early Chinese missle strikes and much of the fledgling Chinese fleet would go to the bottom of the ocean, killing thousands of Chinese.
What a waste this entire situation is when China and Nationalist China could gain so much by working together.

If so much as a single Chinese soldier steps a single toe into Taiwan, we should nuke Beijing.
Why?

Why?

Because Taiwan should be its own independent nation.

Why?

Because we can. :P

We should hit the three gourges dam instead.

That will be devistating.

Because Taiwan should be its own independent nation.

Taiwan is China's one, only, true legitimate government. The 'government' on the mainland is nothing more than a rabid pack of gangsters unworthy of recognition or even the right to live.

Why?
We should do anything to hasten the events of Mad Max: Thunderdome.

Taiwan is China's one, only, true legitimate government. The 'government' on the mainland is nothing more than a rabid pack of gangsters unworthy of recognition or even the right to live.
Most Taiwanese prefer an independent Taiwanese republic with nothing to do with China.

Most Taiwanese prefer an independent Taiwanese republic with nothing to do with China.

Taiwan's government should govern both the mainland as well as Taiwan. The Republic of China should be the sole legitimate government.

Nationalist China forever! Down with the Chi Coms! Chinese Communism, now with 45% extra capitalism!

:upyours:, Harry Truman, for selling out Chiang Kai-shek!

Taiwan's government should govern both the mainland as well as Taiwan. The Republic of China should be the sole legitimate government.
The mainland can get a better government no doubt but the "Republic of China" (which for all practical and ideological purposes is a secessionist government) or its people have no interest in being part of China. The only thing preventing the Republic of China from formally changing its name to the Republic of Taiwan is pressure from the mainland, which would view such a renaming as treason and a pretext for war.

Nationalist China forever! Down with the Chi Coms! Chinese Communism, now with 45% extra capitalism!
Taiwanese people do not like the term "Nationalist China," the Nationalist Party has a bad reputation for corruption and past oppression of native Taiwanese, there should be a Taiwanese republic and a separate Chinese one.

:upyours:, Harry Truman, for selling out Chiang Kai-shek!
I think the loss of China to communism was inevitable unless the US somehow found a better ally than Chiang Kai shek. Most of the money we gave to Chiang during WWII and the civil war was mismanaged and squandered by corruption. to Chiang was less charismatic than Mao and Chiang's personal and political incompetence alienated most ordinary Chinese people. Even today in Taiwan he is viewed as an old-fashioned Chinese tyrant.

Taiwan is getting its freedom in 2048. So I think we can wait and avoid WW3 don't you?

Taiwanese people do not like the term "Nationalist China," the Nationalist Party has a bad reputation for corruption and past oppression of native Taiwanese, there should be a Taiwanese republic and a separate Chinese one.

Oh com'on. . .*whines* that's not fair. Where is the fun in saying Republic of China? Nationalist China sounds so much more strident and, well, nationalistic! Yeah nationalism!! Formosa forever!

Because Taiwan should be its own independent nation.
Why? Is it not part of china?

So, let's just say Mainland China does move after Taiwan. There are several things standing in the way.
1.) The nearest US carrier battle group.
2.) The Taiwanese Navy (more modern ships than those of the PLAN)
3.) The Taiwanese Air Force (typically more modern than that of the PLAAF)
4.) US sanctions and military action

So, I don't think China is stupid, they won't go after Taiwan.

I think the loss of China to communism was inevitable unless the US somehow found a better ally than Chiang Kai shek. Most of the money we gave to Chiang during WWII and the civil war was mismanaged and squandered by corruption. to Chiang was less charismatic than Mao and Chiang's personal and political incompetence alienated most ordinary Chinese people. Even today in Taiwan he is viewed as an old-fashioned Chinese tyrant.

yeah, gotta admit that. He wasn't the greatest ally. Wasn't the greatest leader of men either.

Oh com'on. . .*whines* that's not fair. Where is the fun in saying Republic of China? Nationalist China sounds so much more strident and, well, nationalistic! Yeah nationalism!! Formosa forever!
It's better to simply say Taiwan. Formosa is an outdated Portuguese name that no one uses.

Why? Is it not part of china?
Nope, the Taiwanese people should choose for themselves how to live, and plus we shouldn't abandon to fascism this island which has ruled itself as a free country for decades. Deny communist China its wish to subjugate and oppress peoples.

One of my friends is Taiwanese and I know alot of Taiwanese people(Panama is one of the few countries that recognizes Taiwan), and they mostly say that they want Taiwan to be an independent country. Even though alot of older Taiwanese say they want to be the sole Chinese government, the newer people are like "Screw that China, we wanna be our own country!".

You don't nuke Beijing, you send the US Navy and have them use SSNs and long range Carrier strikes to send the PLAN to Davey Jones' Locker, and then deny the sea to the PRC. That closes off oil shipments and denies them the ability to send infantry troops into the ROC.

It's better to simply say Taiwan. Formosa is an outdated Portuguese name that no one uses.

dammit. . .I'm losing all good options here. Taiwan? Taiwan is just what the people who live there call it. Maybe. But Formosa, now there is a word with history, Portuguese history as well!!

Just curious, are you Taiwanese and does it really bother you if I use those terms? I don't means this in an insulting way, am just wanting to know.

Nope, the Taiwanese people should choose for themselves how to live, and plus we shouldn't abandon to fascism this island which has ruled itself as a free country for decades. Deny communist China its wish to subjugate and oppress peoples.
Fair enough. Do you support countries such as...Cuba being allowed to freely vote to be communist?

You don't nuke Beijing, you send the US Navy and have them use SSNs and long range Carrier strikes to send the PLAN to Davey Jones' Locker, and then deny the sea to the PRC. That closes off oil shipments and denies them the ability to send infantry troops into the ROC.
Yeah, that's basically how any sane US President (who had no choice but to fight a war, that is) would fight a war with China. Strangle the mainland. Only way to beat a nation with a billion+ people.

Taiwan is getting its freedom in 2048. So I think we can wait and avoid WW3 don't you?

I must say I have given this a lot of thought myself, and here's what I predict would happen.

If Taiwan does declare independence backed by Japan, Russia, possibly South Korea, UK, US and us (Australia), China moves to invade and re-establish its authoritah. The US navy is already in that sea so there's a massive war going on. China declares this to American imperialism interfering in its domestic affairs and calls upon North Korea, Iran/Persia and other anti-american countries in central Asia and perhaps Africa to support them. A wave of terrorist groups like al Q'aeda and Jamma Islamiyah pour their funds into hostage-taking and other guerilla tactics against Allied targets. Meanwhile China's investments in nearby countries' economies - like Oz, US, Japan - are withdrawn which forces more people into unemployment and then figure "what have we got to lose, we'll sign up for the war." That's if they don't try introducing conscription again.

Since Iran/Persia has entered the war against the Allies, Israel decides that this clear and present danger to their own national security is presenting a clear opportunity, so they attack. India and Pakistan might just forget about fighting each other for the moment while everyone around them is fighting and arm themselves to the teeth and armour themselves to the eyeballs in self-defence and likewise foreign investment could be withdrawn.

Meanwhile, the Europeans could be sitting in Brussels wondering how they could be stupid enough to start this possibly WWIII in the first place, especially with the nuclear consequences. Except for perhaps eastern European countries who might side with the Allies, they remain neutral but again make themselves hugely defensible, just in case.

Also see http://www.ebaumsworld.com/endofworld.html.

Yeah, that's basically how any sane US President (who had no choice but to fight a war, that is) would fight a war with China. Strangle the mainland. Only way to beat a nation with a billion+ people.
Exactly. You use your AF and Navy where you have an advantage in both numbers and technology. They have the ability to choke the nation into submission. Besides using your advantage, you deny the PRC their advantage. Many people think the PLAN is strong in numbers, but the US outnumbers them and most of the PLAN ships are obsolete.

I agree Taiwan should have it's independance but war of any kind over the issue is retarded. China is a nuclear power, and not that they would resort to it but still one should never piss off a nation that can turn entire cities into dust. Taiwan will have it's freedom one way or another, and there are plent of non-violent solutions out there.

Well, of course, the US could always freeze Chinese assets in the US...(and the same goes for any other nation as well)

Fair enough. Do you support countries such as...Cuba being allowed to freely vote to be communist?
I wouldn't mind at all if a country votes in a communist government. You can be socialist/communist and democratic at the same time. In West Bengal, India, the Communist Party has established collective farms and socialist policies in the past few decades even though they have to face the voters in fair and free elections every year. In fact communist West Bengal is one of the most stable state governments in all of India. The West Bengali communists earned the trust and respect of its people over the course of many decades. However the people of Cuba do not have free elections, so they've never actually been consulted as to how they want their social systems to be like.

I wouldn't mind at all if a country votes in a communist government. You can be socialist/communist and democratic at the same time. In West Bengal, India, the Communist Party has established collective farms and socialist policies in the past few decades even though they have to face the voters in fair and free elections every year. In fact communist West Bengal is one of the most stable state governments in all of India. The West Bengali communists earned the trust and respect of its people over the course of many decades. However the people of Cuba do not have free elections, so they've never actually been consulted as to how they want their social systems to be like.
Fair enough.

dammit. . .I'm losing all good options here. Taiwan? Taiwan is just what the people who live there call it. Maybe. But Formosa, now there is a word with history, Portuguese history as well!!

Just curious, are you Taiwanese and does it really bother you if I use those terms? I don't means this in an insulting way, am just wanting to know.
Nope, I am not Taiwanese, but I know many Taiwanese people who use the word Taiwan. And it is better to consult the people who actually live in a place on what to call their home ;)

I agree Taiwan should have it's independance but war of any kind over the issue is retarded. China is a nuclear power, and not that they would resort to it but still one should never piss off a nation that can turn entire cities into dust. Taiwan will have it's freedom one way or another, and there are plent of non-violent solutions out there.

Alot of people get us pissed off. And we could do tenfold the amount of damage that China could.

Nope, I am not Taiwanese, but I know many Taiwanese people who use the word Taiwan. And it is better to consult the people who actually live in a place on what to call their home ;)

well shucks. But if I consulted them, then I would know and I wouldn't have the excuse of ignorance to defend my use of the incorrect terms! (yeah I'll stick with that argument, ignorance makes it okay, that's the ticket.)

Ok, so...

Taiwan wants to seceed from China. As usual. And China has drafted a bill stating if Taiwan secceeds, China will take action. Thats basically whats happening now. So, what do you think?

Personally, I think China should back off of Taiwan, mainly because thats my nationality.

As an American I would say be very very careful. Even the Bush adminstration doesnt support Taiwan independence. Let time take its course. China is changing and may change more toward a Taiwan style government. I personally dont want to see American troops fighting in the Pacific because Taiwan did something stupid and messed up the status quo. Any type of war with China will surely lead to destruction for Taiwan. So be very very careful and hope that China doesnt invade.

One of my friends is Taiwanese and I know alot of Taiwanese people(Panama is one of the few countries that recognizes Taiwan), and they mostly say that they want Taiwan to be an independent country. Even though alot of older Taiwanese say they want to be the sole Chinese government, the newer people are like "Screw that China, we wanna be our own country!".

There are a couple of things I want to know about who is posting to this thread:

1) How many are Taiwanese living abroad, particularly Taiwanese-Americans?

2) How many of you have been to Taiwan?

3) How many of you have been to the Mainland?

4) How many of you know the Mainland position on the matter?

What I would say is this:

If you are Taiwanese but have a different citizenship, watch what you say about what "Taiwanese" people want. You may very well not know. *insert ethnic group here*-Americans in particular are known for having outdated views that are not reflective of the homeland's atittudes. Irish-Americans are most notorious for this, but there are other ethnic groups whose connections are tenuous at best and their money tends to affect the situation negatively. There are still idiots in Boston who give money to the Irish Republican Army, for example, and their money is most often used to peddle drugs in Belfast or occasionally bomb a train in London. This is NOT helping. I'd ask Taiwanese-Americans the same question, and ask them to seriously examine what their interests in Taiwan are, and if they are reflective of the situation currently. What your father thought may be very different from reality now.

I know a lot of Taiwanese and Mainland people (I live in China) and what they really want is an end to the tension between Taiwan and the Mainland. Everyone's seeing it's bad for commerce, especially since China is surging and the Taiwanese can actually benefit from mainland business now. While both China and Taiwan are painfully nationalistic and stubborn as all get-up, they also don't see red nearly so much as they see green, or multi-colored in the case of the currencies used there. The ultimate solution is going to involve money, I suspect. If China can prove that Taiwan can keep its freedoms and both parties can make money, voila! the end of it will come.

Right now, nationalistic pride is outweighing practical concerns. China makes ridiculous claims on Taiwan based on Qing Dynasty holdings, the Taiwanese call themselves the "legitimate" government of China and Taiwan, China calls Chen the "rebel so-called President," and the Taiwanese think that China stands hovering about their shores, ready to strike. The truth on both sides is somewhere in the middle. I can't say that the average China person knows this -- their attitudes about Taiwan are skewed by Mainland propaganda. They DO say that a peaceful solution is the best way. They don't want to go to war.

The US in the end would not interfere if Taiwan was attacked by China. They lose too much economically if they do. There would not be WWIII from that, and the Taiwanese saying this stuff about US intervention really need to see the light and realize that hey, they ain't all that important. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be independent, just that they are not all that key anymore.

The Taiwanese with other citizenship should stay the hell out of it either way. Aren't they citizens of their OWN countries now...?

Ge-Ren

I think the loss of China to communism was inevitable unless the US somehow found a better ally than Chiang Kai shek. Most of the money we gave to Chiang during WWII and the civil war was mismanaged and squandered by corruption. to Chiang was less charismatic than Mao and Chiang's personal and political incompetence alienated most ordinary Chinese people. Even today in Taiwan he is viewed as an old-fashioned Chinese tyrant.

Agree, this in my opinion is a good assesment of what really went down.

The US in the end would not interfere if Taiwan was attacked by China. They lose too much economically if they do. There would not be WWIII from that, and the Taiwanese saying this stuff about US intervention really need to see the light and realize that hey, they ain't all that important. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be independent, just that they are not all that key anymore.


Ge-Ren

Not that Im for war with China. The US has clearly stated that they would intervene. I for one cannot think of anytime in US history that we didnt do what we say. When it comes to assuring a promise of protection on this scale. I can say with confidence that the US would intervene. First would be to destroy the Chinese naval forces. Secondly to destroy there Airforce. Then to put a economic choke hold on China. Embargo comes to mind. Really I dont see US troops engaging in ground combat on the mainland. But hope that this never comes to pass.

I have been to the mainland. I buy goods from chinese suppliers. So I normally make one to two trips a year. Can tell you that Chinese people are good people on the whole. I doubt if they are interested in a full scale war with the west. Wouldnt serve there needs.

There are a couple of things I want to know about who is posting to this thread:

1) How many are Taiwanese living abroad, particularly Taiwanese-Americans?

2) How many of you have been to Taiwan?

3) How many of you have been to the Mainland?

4) How many of you know the Mainland position on the matter?

What I would say is this:

If you are Taiwanese but have a different citizenship, watch what you say about what "Taiwanese" people want. You may very well not know. *insert ethnic group here*-Americans in particular are known for having outdated views that are not reflective of the homeland's atittudes. Irish-Americans are most notorious for this, but there are other ethnic groups whose connections are tenuous at best and their money tends to affect the situation negatively. There are still idiots in Boston who give money to the Irish Republican Army, for example, and their money is most often used to peddle drugs in Belfast or occasionally bomb a train in London. This is NOT helping. I'd ask Taiwanese-Americans the same question, and ask them to seriously examine what their interests in Taiwan are, and if they are reflective of the situation currently. What your father thought may be very different from reality now.

I know a lot of Taiwanese and Mainland people (I live in China) and what they really want is an end to the tension between Taiwan and the Mainland. Everyone's seeing it's bad for commerce, especially since China is surging and the Taiwanese can actually benefit from mainland business now. While both China and Taiwan are painfully nationalistic and stubborn as all get-up, they also don't see red nearly so much as they see green, or multi-colored in the case of the currencies used there. The ultimate solution is going to involve money, I suspect. If China can prove that Taiwan can keep its freedoms and both parties can make money, voila! the end of it will come.

Right now, nationalistic pride is outweighing practical concerns. China makes ridiculous claims on Taiwan based on Qing Dynasty holdings, the Taiwanese call themselves the "legitimate" government of China and Taiwan, China calls Chen the "rebel so-called President," and the Taiwanese think that China stands hovering about their shores, ready to strike. The truth on both sides is somewhere in the middle. I can't say that the average China person knows this -- their attitudes about Taiwan are skewed by Mainland propaganda. They DO say that a peaceful solution is the best way. They don't want to go to war.

The US in the end would not interfere if Taiwan was attacked by China. They lose too much economically if they do. There would not be WWIII from that, and the Taiwanese saying this stuff about US intervention really need to see the light and realize that hey, they ain't all that important. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be independent, just that they are not all that key anymore.

The Taiwanese with other citizenship should stay the hell out of it either way. Aren't they citizens of their OWN countries now...?

Ge-Ren

They are actual Taiwanese. There is a Taiwanese Embassy right down the street, and the Taiwanese are EVERYWHERE! They fund Panamanian Museums, have big companies here, you name it, the Taiwanese influence it. They talk about how this fighting between China and Taiwan is bad and that Taiwan should just declare independence and get this over with.

There are a couple of things I want to know about who is posting to this thread:

1) How many are Taiwanese living abroad, particularly Taiwanese-Americans?

2) How many of you have been to Taiwan?

3) How many of you have been to the Mainland?

4) How many of you know the Mainland position on the matter?

Ge-Ren

I'm Taiwanese, a citizen of the US and Taiwan. (Gotta love dual citizenships :-D)

Been to Taiwan multiple times, went all over the island. Very cool place.

Never been to the mainland myself. Too many stories of Taiwanese being taken advantage of. :mad: Should be okay to go, but don't plan on going in the near future.

Sure, we all know the mainland position. Dec 2004 there was the news about Beijing proposing legislature that would make an attack on Taiwan necessary if the ROC declared independence from Beijing.

Oh.... on terms for the entity called the Republic of China, I think the most universally acceptable right now is 'Chinese Taipei'. That's what they use at the Olympics.

USA would defend Taiwan...for now, China check this and they see the US aircraft carrier stand in their way.

China never recognize that Taiwan secede and they may still have claims in Korea.

China have many goals, and the best safety to Taiwan is if others of their goals came clashing against that ''re-unification''.

China would not enter war against USA over Taiwan. USA army and resolve is many times strongers when they are attacked, so it is a standstill that will remain a standstill.

Every neighbor China have must be against this annexion as well, which matter a lot for China interests.

USA would have a complete and unfailing support of all NATO in the case of Taiwan defense, which matter a LOT. I even wonder if Russia would not lend a hand to help as well.

Yet, if we have the right to protect Taiwan, would China have the right to come and recognize an independant State of California should they secede? :P

The only nonconformist part of California is the Bay Area... A bunch of psychotic left-wingers live around me. I must be the only conservative within a 10 mile radius.

Well, for a war between China and Taiwan:

China's army is infinitely stronger. The last simulation showed that the Chinese army would completely annihilate the Taiwanese in five and a half days, if they were able to land.

Therefore, the ROC relies on its navy and air force to defend itself. It usually buys things from the US, although it has a few Dutch and French submarines. The air force is no contest; MiG-21's vs. F-16's and Mirage 2000's. Only problem for Taiwan is that there are about 3000 planes in the Chinese airforce.

The Chinese have insufficient landing craft, and a navy of hundreds of WWII-era destroyers. They don't have a single aircraft carrier. However, they're amassing a fleet of modern attack-submarines to deter US carriers.

The US and Japan would probably be the staunchest supporters of Taiwan in a hands down war. No idea on Japanese armed forces, and I don't know how many ships are in the 7th Fleet, either.\ :sniper:

There are a couple of things I want to know about who is posting to this thread:

1) How many are Taiwanese living abroad, particularly Taiwanese-Americans?

I am actually Chinese American, although I don't feel loyalty to China and I think of myself as American only.

2) How many of have been to Taiwan?

Once, on an American passport

3) How many of you have been to the Mainland?

Many times, and I was born there.

4) How many of you know the Mainland position on the matter?

I know it, and I frequently watch rantings about the mainland position on the matter on CCTV 4 Chinese state TV.

What I would say is this:

If you are Taiwanese but have a different citizenship, watch what you say about what "Taiwanese" people want. You may very well not know. *insert ethnic group here*-Americans in particular are notorious for having outdated views that are not reflective of the homeland's atittudes. Irish-Americans are notorious for this, but there are other ethnic groups whose connections are tenuous at best and their money tends to affect the situation negatively. There are still idiots in Boston who give money to the Irish Republican Army, for example, and their money is most often used to peddle drugs in Belfast or occasionally bomb a train in London. This is NOT helping. I'd ask Taiwanese-Americans the same question, and ask them to seriously examine what their interests in Taiwan are, and if they are reflective of the situation currently. What your father thought may be very different from reality now.

The reality is actually that Chen Shui Bian's government is radical and pro-independence. Nationalist Taiwanese abroad are surely agitating about secession, but Chen's government is not making anything better. Chen Shui Bian recently floated the idea of changing the name of Republic of China to Republic of Taiwan although fierce mainland criticism prevented things like this. Chen Shui Bian is always threatening independence on short notice such as threatening to secede before 2008 Beijing olympics in order to destablize China.


I know a lot of Taiwanese and Mainland people (I live in China) and what they really want is an end to the tension between Taiwan and the Mainland. Everyone's seeing it's bad for commerce, especially since China is surging and the Taiwanese can actually benefit from mainland business now. While both China and Taiwan are painfully nationalistic and stubborn as all get-up, they also don't see red nearly so much as they see green, or multi-colored in the case of the currencies used there. The ultimate solution is going to involve money, I suspect.
That is true. I think an all out US-China war would definitely ruin the world economy. I think Taiwan deserves its independence, but for practical purposes the most safe bet for this world is to just maintain the status quo by which there will be two Chinas, Taiwan never formally declaring independence but operating as a de facto sovereign state.

If China can prove that Taiwan can keep its freedoms and both parties can make money, voila! the end of it will come.
China cannot prove Taiwan can keep its freedoms. The Chinese have already undermined the legislative council in Hong Kong by making half its members non-elected people appointed by the central government. Taiwan would never submit to central power in China, and unification can only occur if some radical democratic reform happens in the mainland which does away with the current fascist system.

Right now, nationalistic pride is outweighing practical concerns. China makes ridiculous claims on Taiwan based on Qing Dynasty holdings, the Taiwanese call themselves the "legitimate" government of China and Taiwan,
Lee Tung Hui basically relinquished Taiwan's claim on the mainland back in 1994 when he stated Taiwan would never attempt to recover the lands lost to the communist party.

China calls Chen the "rebel so-called President," and the Taiwanese think that China stands hovering about their shores, ready to strike. The truth on both sides is somewhere in the middle. I can't say that the average China person knows this -- their attitudes about Taiwan are skewed by Mainland propaganda. They DO say that a peaceful solution is the best way. They don't want to go to war.

The US in the end would not interfere if Taiwan was attacked by China. They lose too much economically if they do. There would not be WWIII from that, and the Taiwanese saying this stuff about US intervention really need to see the light and realize that hey, they ain't all that important. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be independent, just that they are not all that key anymore.

Taiwan would most likely not declare independence but remain a de facto sovereign state forever. China would not attack and therefore the US would not invade. There would be legal ambiguity as to Taiwan's technical status but Taiwan would be economically and politically independent, live as a free nation indefinitely. Saves everyone the hassle of war. ;)


The Taiwanese with other citizenship should stay the hell out of it either way. Aren't they citizens of their OWN countries now...?

Ge-Ren
It is in the interest of many nations that China does not take over Taiwan. People living in Japan and the US both have good reason for Taiwanese independence. The US obviously does not want China, already a surging power, to get all the more powerful by absorbing Taiwan. Japan would also like to develop ties with Taiwan and see China as weak as possible.

As an American I would say be very very careful. Even the Bush adminstration doesnt support Taiwan independence. Let time take its course. China is changing and may change more toward a Taiwan style government. I personally dont want to see American troops fighting in the Pacific because Taiwan did something stupid and messed up the status quo. Any type of war with China will surely lead to destruction for Taiwan. So be very very careful and hope that China doesnt invade.
which is the typical 'head in the sand' approach the US has taken towards SE asia after vietnam. in all honesty, beijing should jus give up. this has been going on about as long as the israli-palastinian conflict (jus with less casualties.) i jus think that beijing is scared that if taiwan gains independance, parts like tibet would push for their independence too. with the growing captialisim in china, i am just wondering how long it will last before the communists loose control of things and a democracy is established

If so much as a single Chinese soldier steps a single toe into Taiwan, we should nuke Beijing.


That's an amazingly stupid comment. What do you think would happen if the US fired a nuclear weapon at Beijing? I think it can roughly be described as 'Armagedon'.

If China attacks Taiwan, the US will leave Taiwan to it's own defences. They'd much rather be friendly with the new free market orientated China, with the posibilities for enormous political gains than with their island neighbour. If you want any evidence, the fact that the US no longer acknowledges Taiwan's independence (as does none of Nato) should be evidence enough.

People have this image of the USA as theis big heroic restorer of justice. Where was the USA in Bosnia? Where is the USA in the Sudan? Where was the USA during the Fiji coup? No, the USA is like every other Nation on earth, if there is no economic reason for defending their neighbour, they won't do it.

Quite frankly, I don;t care how this goes. I'm happy with WW3 any way it starts.

But all of you saying the US will intervene have to take into account a few things

China is a nuclear power.
The majority of the imports through US ports (Particularly LA I think) are from China and Japan. The US messes in a bad way with China, China will cut off imports, which will take quite a chunk out of the already battered US economy.
China has alot of soldiers at it's disposal. I'm sure you can look into the fact that the USSR had alot of people durring WW2, and they still pulled gains. If you force an opponent into a war of attrition, when said opponant does not want a war of attrition, you have amuch better chance of winning.
The US is involved in 2 major occupations, possibly another war, and countless minor conflicts around the world, and a war with China will cost alot of money, regardless of how "easy" it is.

"China cannot prove Taiwan can keep its freedoms. The Chinese have already undermined the legislative council in Hong Kong by making half its members non-elected people appointed by the central government. Taiwan would never submit to central power in China, and unification can only occur if some radical democratic reform happens in the mainland which does away with the current fascist system."

The British never allowed democracy in HK either.

Would the USA, Canada or European nations ever allow a part of them to seperate? I think we can look back to the american civil war to answer that question.

The talk of all these war plans from the PRC is all hot air. China would'nt risk its economic growth for it.

It's better to simply say Taiwan. Formosa is an outdated Portuguese name that no one uses.

Not true, Twinings and Fortnum and Mason both use Formosa.

"China cannot prove Taiwan can keep its freedoms. The Chinese have already undermined the legislative council in Hong Kong by making half its members non-elected people appointed by the central government. Taiwan would never submit to central power in China, and unification can only occur if some radical democratic reform happens in the mainland which does away with the current fascist system."

The British never allowed democracy in HK either.

Past bad government does not justify present or future bad government. CHina promised Hong Kong widespread democracy but is whittling away Hong Kong's self rule. And I'm not to say the British had bad government because at least their English-derived common law courts in Hong Kong were required to safeguard civil rights while China's arbitrary Stalinist court system can do whatever it wants.


Would the USA, Canada or European nations ever allow a part of them to seperate? I think we can look back to the american civil war to answer that question.

China will not let Taiwan separate but from a self-interested perspective of Japanese, American, and other people, Taiwan should not fall into China's control. That is why the Taiwanese people and foreigners are willing to use all sorts of pressure, political, economic, and (unlikely) military to prevent Taiwan from joining China.

Taiwan is getting its freedom in 2048. So I think we can wait and avoid WW3 don't you?

Yeah, I'm not getting nuked so a few asian men can say they're free (for a second). Sorry, that may seem selfish that I want the skin on my body... so you'll have to wait.

Fair enough. Do you support countries such as...Cuba being allowed to freely vote to be communist?
Sure, allow the entire population including those who ran to the safety of the US to vote. Be interesting to see the results.

Sure, allow the entire population {of Cuba} including those who ran to the safety of the US to vote. Be interesting to see the results.

Cuban-Americans who ran to America haven't done too badly for themselves, and should be happy they are American if they don't care for Cuba anymore. Half the people who "ran" from Cuba were the plantation owners who practically held the rest of the nation as slaves. The land barons should have NO SAY in Cuban affairs, AFAIAC. If there was any group that deserved to be exiled from their own country, it was them. People forget that Castro led a people's revolution then, whatever you think of him now. There was good reason for many, if not most Cubans, to revolt.

Ge-Ren

The reality is actually that Chen Shui Bian's government is radical and pro-independence. Nationalist Taiwanese abroad are surely agitating about secession, but Chen's government is not making anything better.

Chen's government was voted in, which says something I think. I don't believe that Chen Shui Bian is acting alone, so it's not so fair to call him "radical" except from the Mainland's perspective. I think the Taiwanese have proved again and again that their political attitude and governmental style are "radical" no matter who is in power. Right now, as a new generation of younger Taiwanese are hitting the polls, I think we are seeing the results of the most-removed Taiwanese generation of voters to date. Chen is very likely a reflection of Taiwan now.

Chen Shui Bian recently floated the idea of changing the name of Republic of China to Republic of Taiwan although fierce mainland criticism prevented things like this. Chen Shui Bian is always threatening independence on short notice such as threatening to secede before 2008 Beijing olympics in order to destablize China.

I can't disagree with this. I wonder more on the Mainland's side why it really feels it needs to hold on to Taiwan. It's likely a fear of a cascade effect: if Taiwan goes, then Hong Kong, then who knows who else. China has a fairly tenuous hold on its edges, and osme of us might argue that ona day-to-day basis, Beijing has little control over most of its provinces period.

China cannot prove Taiwan can keep its freedoms. The Chinese have already undermined the legislative council in Hong Kong by making half its members non-elected people appointed by the central government. Taiwan would never submit to central power in China, and unification can only occur if some radical democratic reform happens in the mainland which does away with the current fascist system.

The Brits should have hammered out a Basic Law that didn't allow for varied interpretations of HK's government. The Chinese have taken the strictest and harshest read of it they could, largely because of Tung Chee Hwa's idiocy inciting political dissent. If Beijing had chosen less inept barons for LEGCO, they wouldn't be in the mess they are with Hong Kong or Taiwan. China HAD the chance to prove it could make 1C2S work, then totally blew it and blamed it on SARS and a "hasty" pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong. I would be curious to see if with new leadership HK could again move towards full electorate control over LEGCO, which is what I believed was promised in the Basic Law in the first place. It's just the timeline that people are squabbling over.

I just look at that situation, shake my head and mutter "guanxi kills" and move on from there.

It is in the interest of many nations that China does not take over Taiwan. People living in Japan and the US both have good reason for Taiwanese independence. The US obviously does not want China, already a surging power, to get all the more powerful by absorbing Taiwan. Japan would also like to develop ties with Taiwan and see China as weak as possible.

This is, on the surface, the reasonable stance for Japan and the US to take, but China's "surge" is EXTREMELY localized, so China is not as strong as it seems. I believe Japan and the US have less to worry about than they may even think. I suspect in ten years, the question of how to raise 1 billion people out of poverty is going to HAVE to be China's major concern. For all of its economic development, the cashflow is pretty much limited to a small portion of the population and to its special economic zones: anything outside of that is local industry or totally dependent on foreign investment. Migration, much of it illegal, is rampant, depleting less-developed areas and rendering them more economically delicate than before the Opening Up Policy was established. There is also such an enormous gap between the rich and the poor that it's causing unrest in certain areas of the country. Every time in Chinese history that's happened, the conclusion has been major peasant revolt and regime change, as often followed by breakup as not. I predict that China's internal problems will no doubt become its focus, even over the issue with Taiwan. Yeah, technically Taiwan is an "internal" problem, but in all honesty, Beijing should be more worried about Shanghai and Urumqi.

It's an interesting situation.

Ge-Ren

Half the people who "ran" from Cuba were the plantation owners who practically held the rest of the nation as slaves. The land barons should have NO SAY in Cuban affairs,
I'm talking all the people who left since about 1970. That should exclude most if not all of your land barons.

I'm not to say the British had bad government because at least their English-derived common law courts in Hong Kong were required to safeguard civil rights while China's arbitrary Stalinist court system can do whatever it wants.

What's really ruining HK is that the system is no longer holding up the economic controls and assurances that made HK a financial capitol in the first place. HK has always been harsh in terms of criminal and social law, but it was its economic legal policy that made the difference. Without the safeguards the Brits put in place, HK's just another Chinese city to freewheel in. It's no longer safe to invest in it as it once was. With the central government focusing on its mainland financial centers (in particular Shanghai) HK becomes second-rate.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentional on the CCP's part. Wow, just as short-sighted as the One Child Policy...

China will not let Taiwan separate but from a self-interested perspective of Japanese, American, and other people, Taiwan should not fall into China's control. That is why the Taiwanese people and foreigners are willing to use all sorts of pressure, political, economic, and (unlikely) military to prevent Taiwan from joining China.

Taiwan is not being "prevented" from joining China -- that's Mainland propaganda at its best. Taiwan does not WANT to be part of China, and I don't blame them. Taiwan doesn't want war either, because you can't enjoy independence if you are DEAD.

Ge-Ren

If China do invade Taiwan, China would have to be quick in doing it when the operation starts, so that they are on the island before severe international criticism.

In all honesty, I don't think the US will do much, perhaps verbally make noise, along with the EU and the rest of the world. Perhaps the US Navy will dispatch a fleet, but not get involved.

The US will not risk WW3 over Taiwan. Not unless the Bush administration is completely stupid.....er....erm....ah...hmm.

The world will protest, but will continue trade with China while protesting, a bit like the US invading Iraq.

If the war gets too messy and not finished quickly, things might change.

The reason why China regained Hong Kong from the UK is probably because China threated military action, and the UK said "Ok, let us save face, and we will make a dignified retreat."

:upyours:, Harry Truman, for selling out Chiang Kai-shek!

Chiang Kai-shek was not a nice man, and the GMD government was not a nice government.

Chen Shui-ban has stated that he would be prepared to re-join the mainland, on Taiwan's terms (a more democratic Beijing).

You can't have it both ways. Either you are a part or not. Thats just like saying the Florida Keys are a bastion of the Confederacy. You can't just seccede because you dislike the government in power.

Taiwan is a irrevocable part of China, legally stated under the Potsdam Agreement. There has been no legal change to the territorial status off the Taiwan Strait since 1945.

Because of historical incidents, the PRC has a negative view of foreign influence inside its sphere of influence. The Yan'an Spirit justifies CCP one-party rule in China. To say there is a groundswell of democratic agitation below the surface in mainland China or Taiwan is a propaganda put out by those who wish that China return to its subservient feudal past.

The only nonconformist part of California is the Bay Area... A bunch of psychotic left-wingers live around me. I must be the only conservative within a 10 mile radius.

Well, for a war between China and Taiwan:

China's army is infinitely stronger. The last simulation showed that the Chinese army would completely annihilate the Taiwanese in five and a half days, if they were able to land.

Therefore, the ROC relies on its navy and air force to defend itself. It usually buys things from the US, although it has a few Dutch and French submarines. The air force is no contest; MiG-21's vs. F-16's and Mirage 2000's. Only problem for Taiwan is that there are about 3000 planes in the Chinese airforce.

The Chinese have insufficient landing craft, and a navy of hundreds of WWII-era destroyers. They don't have a single aircraft carrier. However, they're amassing a fleet of modern attack-submarines to deter US carriers.

The US and Japan would probably be the staunchest supporters of Taiwan in a hands down war. No idea on Japanese armed forces, and I don't know how many ships are in the 7th Fleet, either.\ :sniper:

Well, Japan is probably going to step in, because Taiwan has the world largest semiconductor market. And the last thing they want is China's economy getting stronger. And America is definantly going to step in. Americans have proven themselves to push out weapons, supplies, and people faster than any country (ww1, and ww2)

The reason why China regained Hong Kong from the UK is probably because China threated military action, and the UK said "Ok, let us save face, and we will make a dignified retreat."

No, the reason China got HK back from Britain is that Britan's lease on HK was up. There was no threat of war. There was an agreement the two countries heeded.

you really need to read more before posting...

Ge-Ren

Taiwan is a irrevocable part of China, legally stated under the Potsdam Agreement. There has been no legal change to the territorial status off the Taiwan Strait since 1945.

You damn well know the Potsdam Agreement doesn't apply to the PRC, so don't even go there.

Because of historical incidents, the PRC has a negative view of foreign influence inside its sphere of influence. The Yan'an Spirit justifies CCP one-party rule in China. To say there is a groundswell of democratic agitation below the surface in mainland China or Taiwan is a propaganda put out by those who wish that China return to its subservient feudal past.

You also must know that's not true. I'm not even going to dignify that with answer. Plus...China's returning to its feudal past, and arguably never left it, even now, "propaganda" aside. Looked at your stats on the rich and poor in China...?

Geez.

Ge-Ren

You don't nuke Beijing, you send the US Navy and have them use SSNs and long range Carrier strikes to send the PLAN to Davey Jones' Locker, and then deny the sea to the PRC...
but keep the SSBN's in range in case things "heat up" (to say a million plus degrees---not good)

:sniper: