NationStates Jolt Archive


Immigration Discussion

CHASEINGTON
03-03-2005, 02:18
I am really just interested in what peoples views are on the issue of immiration into the United States. Some people believe in tightly securing our borders and not allowing any immigrants (especially mexicans) into the country. While others believe in opening our borders and allwing them in. Personally I sort of believe in shutting the borders for terror reasons and also because of them comeing in and useing our roads and schools while also takeing up a quarter of the space in jails in California. But i also see how we need them in our country because they take jobs that ordinary americans wont take because it doesnt pay enough.
Id like some oppinions and view points please
please leave my spelling and grammar alone
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:22
There should be a limit to how many immigrants can enter the country each year. All illegals should be booted out. Legals, of course, should be treated the same as regular citizens. We should surround our borders with landmines and electrified fences, so no one can get in unless they are transported in by helicopter (and if they tried to fly in via an illegal helicopter, there would be antiaircraft guns to shoot them down).
Malkyer
03-03-2005, 02:22
I'm ambivalent on the issue. On the one hand, I think we should tighten the borders for security reasons, et cetera (the Canadian border is practically non-existent, and the Mexican border...only in name).

However, a lot of concerns people have about Hispanics now, well, people had the same concerns about the Chinese and Irish in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, so I think everything will work out in the end.

Hey, in a perfect world everyboy would be American :D .
Malkyer
03-03-2005, 02:23
There should be a limit to how many immigrants can enter the country each year. All illegals should be booted out. Legals, of course, should be treated the same as regular citizens. We should surround our borders with landmines and electrified fences, so no one can get in unless they are transported in by helicopter (and if they tried to fly in via an illegal helicopter, there would be antiaircraft guns to shoot them down).

Whoa, hardcore, man.
Iztatepopotla
03-03-2005, 02:24
I personally believe that anyone should be allowed to live wherever they please, as long as they keep the peace and get involved with their community. Those who don't keep the peace should be sent back to wherever they came from to serve their sentences there.

Of course, that would be in an ideal world. In our far from ideal world a sort of compromise will have to be reached.
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:27
Whoa, hardcore, man.

I know, it sounds cold, but the immigration problem has really gotten out of control. To anyone who advocates we open our borders completely, I remind them that that's what South Africa did, and look at how crime-infested it is.
31
03-03-2005, 02:29
Immigration in the long run has proven a strength for the US, it has always been worried about as it is happening. We should strictly enforce the laws we have and should tighten all our borders but by no means do I think immigration should be curtailed. We have plenty of space and bringing in new peoples and ideas helps our nation remain vibrant and healthy.
The Canadian/US border is a nice thing, having such a long and open border speaks well of both nations, plus it leads to fun situations where a house is halfway in each country.
Iztatepopotla
03-03-2005, 02:32
There should be a limit to how many immigrants can enter the country each year. All illegals should be booted out. Legals, of course, should be treated the same as regular citizens. We should surround our borders with landmines and electrified fences, so no one can get in unless they are transported in by helicopter (and if they tried to fly in via an illegal helicopter, there would be antiaircraft guns to shoot them down).
There's already a limit. 250,000 I think it is. The problem with kicking them out is that the US Consitution grants everybody certain fundamental rights, plus the philosophy of the US is protecting the pursuit of happiness, freedom, etc. So, there's a philosophical conundrum.

Of course, we're also talking about the last country in America to abolish slavery...
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:33
There's already a limit. 250,000 I think it is. The problem with kicking them out is that the US Consitution grants everybody certain fundamental rights, plus the philosophy of the US is protecting the pursuit of happiness, freedom, etc. So, there's a philosophical conundrum.

Of course, we're also talking about the last country in America to abolish slavery...

A limit of about 1,000,000 per year would be reasonable.
Equus
03-03-2005, 02:33
While I'm all for having immigration standards and keeping criminals and terrorists out (we grow enough criminals of our own, thank you), I'd like to see the immigration process opened up and speeded up. Seriously, we should be bringing in up to 1% of our population every year. (320,000 people) That would help firm up our declining birth rates and improve our tax base without overly straining infrastructure.
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:33
The problem with kicking them out is that the US Consitution grants everybody certain fundamental rights, plus the philosophy of the US is protecting the pursuit of happiness, freedom, etc.

No, the Constitution only applies to U.S. citizens, not the whole world.
31
03-03-2005, 02:35
No, the Constitution only applies to U.S. citizens, not the whole world.

Amen.
Europaland
03-03-2005, 02:37
I believe the borders should be completely opened and all laws against immigration should immediately be scrapped.
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:38
I believe the borders should be completely opened and all laws against immigration should immediately be scrapped.

Have fun being invaded by swarms of criminals, then.
CSW
03-03-2005, 02:40
No, the Constitution only applies to U.S. citizens, not the whole world.
No, not really. Only a few amendments specifically mention citizens, and those tend to deal with voting rights. In fact...
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Any person. Not any citizen. The constitution applies to non-citizens.
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 02:42
No, not really. Only a few amendments specifically mention citizens, and those tend to deal with voting rights. In fact...
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Any person. Not any citizen. The constitution applies to non-citizens.

I don't care, illegals should still be booted down. If they can't follow the laws and enter legally, they don't deserve to stay.
Celtlund
03-03-2005, 02:48
I am all for legal immigration. We need to crack down on illegal immigration by tightening our borders, rounding up illegal aliens, and deporting them. After all, illegal immigrants are criminals; they have committed a crime by entering this country illegally.

Oh, Roach Busters idea of mining the border and putting up electric fences might not be such a bad idea.
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 03:03
I am all for legal immigration. We need to crack down on illegal immigration by tightening our borders, rounding up illegal aliens, and deporting them. After all, illegal immigrants are criminals; they have committed a crime by entering this country illegally.

Oh, Roach Busters idea of mining the border and putting up electric fences might not be such a bad idea.

Thanks. :)
CSW
03-03-2005, 03:11
I don't care, illegals should still be booted down. If they can't follow the laws and enter legally, they don't deserve to stay.
What, exactly, would the founders who are so often quoted by people of your stripe (in general, you know the sort) say about laws that make people criminals who have no other wish then to move to this country to live a better life? I'm fairly sure that I have at least a few wops in my family tree.

Oh, and you don't care about the Constitution?
Roach-Busters
03-03-2005, 03:16
What, exactly, would the founders who are so often quoted by people of your stripe (in general, you know the sort) say about laws that make people criminals who have no other wish then to move to this country to live a better life? I'm fairly sure that I have at least a few wops in my family tree.

Oh, and you don't care about the Constitution?

No, I just don't think people who can't enter the country legally shouldn't be allowed to enter, let alone live here.
CSW
03-03-2005, 03:20
No, I just don't think people who can't enter the country legally shouldn't be allowed to enter, let alone live here.
When you make it so that people can't enter the country legally, do you blame them?


Or in your scheme, are you arguing to allow any person who can pass a simple exam, say to determine that they aren't bringing anything too nasty into the United States in?

(Sorry, I'm a bit hopped up on drugs...nyquil...at the moment to be typing really well)
Celtlund
03-03-2005, 03:23
What, exactly, would the founders who are so often quoted by people of your stripe (in general, you know the sort) say about laws that make people criminals who have no other wish then to move to this country to live a better life? I'm fairly sure that I have at least a few wops in my family tree.

Oh, and you don't care about the Constitution?

They would probably say people who break the law should be punished or deported.

Does anyone out there know when the first immigration laws were passed in the United States?
CSW
03-03-2005, 03:24
They would probably say people who break the law should be punished or deported.

Does anyone out there know when the first immigration laws were passed in the United States?
If the law is unjust...
Celtlund
03-03-2005, 03:27
When you make it so that people can't enter the country legally, do you blame them?

How has the US made it so people can't enter the country legally? Quotas? Thousands immigrate legally to the US every year. Are there any countries in the world that have a completely open border? Is there any country in the world that doesn't have the right to regulate immigration? :confused:
Celtlund
03-03-2005, 03:28
If the law is unjust...

In whose eyes are the immigration laws of the US or any soverign state unjust?
CSW
03-03-2005, 03:37
How has the US made it so people can't enter the country legally? Quotas? Thousands immigrate legally to the US every year. Are there any countries in the world that have a completely open border? Is there any country in the world that doesn't have the right to regulate immigration? :confused:
Quotas. Its rather hard at times to get a green card. My grandparents had difficulty obtaining one and they came over in the 1940's, before demand really started to kick up.


In whose eyes are the immigration laws of the US or any soverign state unjust?
If so many people have to resort to illegal actions to do something which they would gladly do, if given the oppertunity to do, legally, and the law serves no purpose but to discriminate against immigrants, I'd call it unjust. Why can't they come over? Aren't we a nation founded on immigrants?
Iztatepopotla
03-03-2005, 03:40
How has the US made it so people can't enter the country legally? Quotas? Thousands immigrate legally to the US every year. Are there any countries in the world that have a completely open border? Is there any country in the world that doesn't have the right to regulate immigration? :confused:
It's complicated, long, expensive, and the quotas are too restrictive. If you had to apply for immigration to the US you probably wouldn't get in.
Teh Cameron Clan
03-03-2005, 03:42
:)
Chridtopia
03-03-2005, 07:51
It's complicated, long, expensive, and the quotas are too restrictive. If you had to apply for immigration to the US you probably wouldn't get in.

Exactly

Getting my husband over here was a complete circus and he has to now wait for over two years before be comes a legal resident. For right now he's an immigrant, he can't leave the country for two years while they take their time with his paper work - aka can't visit his family and friends. Even more annoying is the lack of information given back to us and without even hiring a lawyer - which I couldn't afford - the costs continue to mount as we go further into the process. He's applied for a temporary work permit and we have absolutely no idea when it will come in so for now he can't work because our government has made it incredibly hard not just to move but to work legally in this country.

Without the help of both of our familys we would have never been able to get this far.
Salvondia
03-03-2005, 08:04
Quotas. Its rather hard at times to get a green card. My grandparents had difficulty obtaining one and they came over in the 1940's, before demand really started to kick up.


If so many people have to resort to illegal actions to do something which they would gladly do, if given the oppertunity to do, legally, and the law serves no purpose but to discriminate against immigrants, I'd call it unjust. Why can't they come over? Aren't we a nation founded on immigrants?

We are a nation founded upon a particular type of immigrant who came with a certain set of skills and for the most part had things to give to this country other than cheap labor.

All that really needs to be done to solve the immigration problem is to revert back to the old method of citizenship. If you're born here, you're not a citizen. If you're born here and one of your parents is a citizen, you're a citizen.

The only reason the law on being born here exists today was to ensure blacks with slave parents became citizens. That’s not a need anymore and we should change it back to the original method. As soon as we do that none of these illegals would be able to send their kids to American schools, get on welfare, healthcare etc...
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 01:24
Quotas. Its rather hard at times to get a green card. My grandparents had difficulty obtaining one and they came over in the 1940's, before demand really started to kick up.


If so many people have to resort to illegal actions to do something which they would gladly do, if given the oppertunity to do, legally, and the law serves no purpose but to discriminate against immigrants, I'd call it unjust. Why can't they come over? Aren't we a nation founded on immigrants?

They can come over legally. Your grandparents did, so did all four of mine. So wha is the problem? :confused:

The law does serve a purpose, to limit the growth of the country to a manageable level and hopefully keep criminals out. :headbang:

You still did not name one country that has completely open borders and will allow anyone who wants to immigrate do so.
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 01:30
It's complicated, long, expensive,...

There are many people who are willing to figure it out, take the time, and... just how expensive is it?...willing to pay the money.


and the quotas are too restrictive.

Please elaborate on this and tell us how they are to restrictive.

If you had to apply for immigration to the US you probably wouldn't get in.

Possibly, but then neither of us can be sure of that.
Iztatepopotla
05-03-2005, 01:44
There are many people who are willing to figure it out, take the time, and... just how expensive is it?...willing to pay the money.

It's true. Many can afford the money and the time it takes to process an immigration application, buy many can't. Remember that the typical person immigrating illegaly to the US does so because of great economic need. For them there's no time because starvation is often close, and there never will be enough money.

Currently there are programs to let about 20,000 Mexican farm workers work temporarily each year in the US. More are needed, both by the US farms and Mexican workers.


Please elaborate on this and tell us how they are to restrictive.

Far more people want to immigrate to the USA than are allowed. If the quotas were less restrictive and the application faster (not necessarily easier) more people would opt for legal immigration.


Possibly, but then neither of us can be sure of that.
That's why I said 'probably'.
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 01:52
Exactly

Getting my husband over here was a complete circus and he has to now wait for over two years before be comes a legal resident. For right now he's an immigrant, he can't leave the country for two years while they take their time with his paper work - aka can't visit his family and friends. Even more annoying is the lack of information given back to us and without even hiring a lawyer - which I couldn't afford - the costs continue to mount as we go further into the process. He's applied for a temporary work permit and we have absolutely no idea when it will come in so for now he can't work because our government has made it incredibly hard not just to move but to work legally in this country.

Without the help of both of our familys we would have never been able to get this far.

I presume your husband came to the United States because he wanted the opportunity to make a better life for himself and his family. I applaud him for doing it legally despite the hardships. But many of our ancestors endured hardships to come here, especially those who came before and right after WW-II. So why complain? If he and you want it, then do what is necessary to get it.

The alternative of course is for you to move with him to his native country. Would that be acceptable to you?
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 04:08
All that really needs to be done to solve the immigration problem is to revert back to the old method of citizenship. If you're born here, you're not a citizen. If you're born here and one of your parents is a citizen, you're a citizen.

The only reason the law on being born here exists today was to ensure blacks with slave parents became citizens.

This is the first time I have heard this. I do not refute it, nor do I accept it. Could you please provide some references for this? I find it very interesting, as I do not think that just because you are born here you should automatically be a citizen unless one or both parents is a citizen.
Bombania II
05-03-2005, 04:24
I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned...

Are any of you aware of how illegal immigrants into Mexico are treated? Do you know how many people they allow to cross their southern border each year? Imagine if the US treated illegal immigrants they way Mexico does. If we treat POWs half as bad, people want to talk about charging politicians with "war crimes". People who want into the US should be extremely thankful for how easy it is.
Zahumlje
05-03-2005, 04:34
I know, it sounds cold, but the immigration problem has really gotten out of control. To anyone who advocates we open our borders completely, I remind them that that's what South Africa did, and look at how crime-infested it is.

I don't know how open South Africa's borders in fact are, but you are correct that it's pretty crime ridden. There's always been more crime there than everyone realized.
From what I understand from conversations I've had with people who have come to the States from South Africa is that most of the criminals are NOT imports, but people born and raised there.
Zahumlje
05-03-2005, 05:01
A lot of immigration law in the States came from the era of the 'red scares' and the famines in Ireland before that. Most immigration law was intended to insure that most immigrants would be white, NORTHERN Europeans and preferably Protestant, not Jewish, Orthodox Christian or Muslim. Most immigration law had at least some eugenics theory behind it, and was as well intended to ensure that immigrants didn't carry any serious communicable diseases like tuberculosis. People were sent back home if they had TB or venereal diseases, or the immigration inspectors didn't like their politics.
At the time early immigration laws came into force in the U.S. they didn't like Italians, Greeks, Slavs, Middle Easterners, Chinese,Japanese, Asian Indians or Black people from Africa, they didn't like Catholic or Jewish immigrants either.
In fact Germany tried to send all the Jews from Germany to the States, and the United States refused to let them in. Some wound up in Cuba, some wound up in Mexico, but essentially Jews were turned back. I guess they just didn't want to dilute the population with too many non-Anglo-Saxon Protestant types.
I think a lot of the time the bosses of big farms would rather have immigrants, legal or illegal than have Americans because they don't want to pay a fair wage, if the work on farms paid enough there'd be no problem hireing Americans to do it. Now it's so that in the West only Mexicans do farm labor, and if a non-Mexican applies, well he or she isn't going to even be hired. I have kids who are half Asian-Indian, the VERY first jobs they held were farm jobs, picking cherries. They'd get hired every summer by the same farme owner. I had to sign a paper so they could work there, and I did for two years in a row, so they'd have some money of their own. I worked in a phone room at the time, and in a day they each made what I made in a week! This was better pay than McDonalds and they were well treated by their bosses, a family of cherry growers. My daughter has in the past taken off a couple weeks in the summer to go pick cherries still! She has two kids and a good regular job, but before she moved up the ladder in her company, she needed the money, she did that even after she became a boss.
I happen to look white, very pale, dark hair dark eyes, and when I applied for such jobs, I could not get to them because I can't drive, and they didn't give me a second look because I'm white. If I ever fall on such hard times again, I will fake being unable to speak English at all, since I do speak Bosnian, I shouldn't have a hard time faking not being able to speak English.
I should say another thing, Mexico and the U.S. have a treaty called the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, and that treaty mandates a border that is not militarized, and allows Mexicans more freedom of passage. Mexico is an actual country and unlike treaties with the Native Americans, the treaty actually has to be halfway honored.
Chridtopia
05-03-2005, 09:01
I presume your husband came to the United States because he wanted the opportunity to make a better life for himself and his family. I applaud him for doing it legally despite the hardships. But many of our ancestors endured hardships to come here, especially those who came before and right after WW-II. So why complain? If he and you want it, then do what is necessary to get it.

The alternative of course is for you to move with him to his native country. Would that be acceptable to you?

He moved here because this is where I am at. I have two jobs and I live at home with my mother and one other tenet. Our house is a bit bigger then his in the UK and therefore has more room for one more person where at his house it didn't have the room for another person.

I complain because it is rediculious and may people would never be able to afford it. Because of this I will not be able to go to finish college, because all the money I had saved for college has gone to moving him here. Because of the system he can not work to help me out with bills or pay for his own personal expensies for a very long time, he can't even leave the country for the next two years or he could go back to the UK and work a few months to help out if we needed it.

I can complain because it has problems with it. Just because it was worst in the past doesn't neglict that it could be better now.
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 17:25
I didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned...

Are any of you aware of how illegal immigrants into Mexico are treated? Do you know how many people they allow to cross their southern border each year? Imagine if the US treated illegal immigrants they way Mexico does. If we treat POWs half as bad, people want to talk about charging politicians with "war crimes". People who want into the US should be extremely thankful for how easy it is.

So, how does Mexico treat illegal immigrants?
Celtlund
05-03-2005, 17:35
I can complain because it has problems with it.

And what about your immigrating to his county? I beleive you said Eangland. Very nice country, very nice and friendly people.
Liskeinland
05-03-2005, 17:57
Have fun being invaded by swarms of criminals, then. Yes, you can't trust Johnny Foreigner… ;)

I live in the UK, where immigration is a big issue. I find it stupid that they're not allowed to work, and though I am not in favour of completely opening our borders, I find sending repeatedly raped women who have had their family killed back to Rwanda (priest near us is hiding a refugee with those circumstances in his church… don't know if you've heard of it, Father McKai…). I don't know much about US immigration - how much do you get? Because in Blighty, the right-wingers are whipping it up, and funnily enough, I haven't noticed the floods of Romanians yet…!
Chridtopia
05-03-2005, 19:06
And what about your immigrating to his county? I beleive you said Eangland. Very nice country, very nice and friendly people.

His country is not the issue, nor was it built on the back of immigrants. England gets plenty of immigrants a year and it is also tough to get into the country, but they have a bit more of a reason considering the size and the amount of refugrees they get.

He moved here because I am better off financially then him at the moment and have more family here. It is not because of the country I come from because if you don't know the pound at times is worth double the dollor, they have free medical care, and their arverage wages are much hirer. We did it because it was right for us, not because we thought the US had more to offer us.

As I said in my previous post though is that not the point. Just because something could be worse doesn't mean we shouldn't want it to be better.
Zahumlje
21-03-2005, 06:25
I wanted to mention that it's actually really hard to immigrate to Mexico, they tightened up their rules after the war with the U.S. Originally MEXICO faced an immigration crisis because of immigrants from the U.S. I know that sounds wierd but it's quite true. The re was a point between the 19th and 20th centuries when there was a lot of immigration from the U.S. into Mexico, principly Catholics origionally from Ireland, Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire. These people settled in what is now Texas, in Chihuahua and in California. I learned about them studying about two things, Frida Kahlo and her family, and studying early Croat and Bosnian immigrants to the U.S. The people who came from these places had a profound and largely unacknowleged impact on Mexico. They improved for example the beer industry, introduced the growing of good grapes in California. Wine growing and olive growing under Spain were Royal Monopolies and could not be done in the colonies. They introduced new musical styles which affected later Mexican popular music. They assimilated pretty well. Later waves of immigrants arriveing from the U.S. however rebelled against Mexico, particularly in Texas and California. Mexico tightened up it's immigration rules in reaction to this stuff. So now it's very hard to immigrate to Mexico, and very hard to become a citizen of Mexico. I know this because I know of cases where Americans did immigrate there and become citizens. I also lived some time in Mexico when I was little. So I know something of the visa difficulties.
To immigrate to the U.S. has always been easy compared to many countries, however the Sept 11th attacks changed the whole atmosphere. I sympathize a good bit with Chridtopia in this matter, because some immigration laws make it difficult for people in their personal lives, for people who are harming no one.
I face a similar problem and the solution my significant other and I have been forced to is that I will have to go to live in his country when I get done at school. He had ENDLESS stupid hassles despite the fact I personally am acquainted with TWO U.S. Senators and got good help. Nothing could be resolved. He's not a member of any etnic group or religious group the U.S. has a problem with, he has other family members here in the States and nothing has worked. Absolutely nothing. I'm a little disgusted that it's easier and cheaper for me to go there and live than to bring him here. For me I don't mind to go there, it may for my situation be the best answer.
The right wing in both England and the U.S. love to stir up shit about immmigrants, but most of it is to help bad employers get away with exploiting immigrant labor. Not a bit of it stops for example the trafficking in people that goes on all over the world. Open borders might actually be helpful in that matter. If people could legitimately go where they wanted to be, then traffickers would be out of a job.
The only real restrictions on people's movements and liveing choices ought to be prevention of parental kidnapping situations, and restrictions on the movements of criminals and the carriers of highly communicable diseases.
Preebles
21-03-2005, 07:03
Yes, you can't trust Johnny Foreigner… ;)

I live in the UK, where immigration is a big issue. I find it stupid that they're not allowed to work, and though I am not in favour of completely opening our borders, I find sending repeatedly raped women who have had their family killed back to Rwanda (priest near us is hiding a refugee with those circumstances in his church… don't know if you've heard of it, Father McKai…). I don't know much about US immigration - how much do you get? Because in Blighty, the right-wingers are whipping it up, and funnily enough, I haven't noticed the floods of Romanians yet…!

Hey, Australia locks up children for indefinite periods because we need "border security." Seriously, the sensationalism that goes on is ridiculous.
Heiligkeit
21-03-2005, 07:43
We should do it just liuke in the nS issue.

Lay mines on the border, guarded by guns and killer animals and robots, and make a show out of it. Watch everyone run over. Thos ethat survive can come in. Those that don't, will be ummmm...how to say?....not living
Invidentia
21-03-2005, 08:00
I know, it sounds cold, but the immigration problem has really gotten out of control. To anyone who advocates we open our borders completely, I remind them that that's what South Africa did, and look at how crime-infested it is.

Oh.. so... what about Europe ? in the EU there are open boarders, you can live where ever you please.. how crime infested are those nations ? And there is something you and the starter of this thread seem to be dramatically misconstruing.. that is the difference between Illegal immigration and legal immigration. We dont have an Immigration problem in this country.. we do have an ILLEGAL immigration probelm.. and you speak of strong boarder protection for security ?? Id like to remind you the 911 terrorists came into the country legally on turist visas through canada.. not over the boarder as an illegal in through mexico.

Instead of wasting 2 billion dollars annually on a boarder system which has zero effecitiveness (in that the illegals we do catch we just send back so that they will try again the following day) We should be investing in Mexico so that we can create a more hospitable environment for which to open the boarder... because it is simply unrealistic to maintain these massive boarder systems which essentially do not work.
Freezing Hell
21-03-2005, 08:12
In whose eyes are the immigration laws of the US or any soverign state unjust?

Probably to all those mexicans etc who cannotget in legally ;)
Invidentia
21-03-2005, 08:24
No, not really. Only a few amendments specifically mention citizens, and those tend to deal with voting rights. In fact...
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Any person. Not any citizen. The constitution applies to non-citizens.

Actually.. our constitution really only applies to people willing to obey and respect the laws of our land.. that is really reflected in our civic code.. (criminals hardly have the luxury of even most of our freedoms granted by the constitution.) By tresspassing on our soil comming in illegally these people have already demonstrated a lack of respect for our nations systems and laws, and thus are not protected by the freedoms our laws provide. Of course they do retain basic human rights, which is why they arn't shot on the spot... but those immigrants here legallys as permanent residents cannot on a whim be drawn from their home incarserated (with little or no legal representation) and deported, while its clear and logical that Illegals can and should be.
Iztatepopotla
21-03-2005, 19:14
So, how does Mexico treat illegal immigrants?
Terribly. The Mexican immigration system is extremely convoluted, rife with corruption and abuse. Illegal immigrants are sometimes incarcerated without trial for extended periods of time, against all Mexican law and human rights.

Police often abuse and brutalize illegal immigrants when caught; theft, murder and rape done by authorities is not uncommon, and illegal immigrants have no recourse or protection. Although a UN report last year said that there had been improvements there's still a lot more to do; and a Mexican Human Rights Commission report published about one month ago says that things are pretty much the same as they have ever been.

Legal immigrants, although they don't suffer persecution, have to deal with an extremely complex system that encourages corruption and often puts them in the hands of an officer who can deport them without any explanation or justification.

I have written to several Mexican and a couple of US-based media to create awareness on this issue, trying to make them confront the Mexican goverment on this issue. It would make me very happy if more people in the US, Mexico and Central America did the same. Mexico needs an immigration reform urgently; the laws written in the early 20th Century that tried to avoid foreign intervention simply don't apply anymore and are doing more harm than good.