NationStates Jolt Archive

Der Spiegel (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344374,00.html)

Oppresion isn't war :rolleyes:

And, yet, somehow life goes on and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Probably because most of us see the 99.9% good in Islam, rather than try to claim that the 0.01% makes up the greater whole.

Go figure.

And, yet, somehow life goes onQuoted for emphasis.

Judging all Muslims by sensationalized reports like this is like me judging all Christians by the annoyance of being woken up too damn early in the morning on Saturday by Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, or self-proclaimed preachers who accidentally kill young autistic boys (http://www.rickross.com/reference/exorcism/exorcism12.html) by attempting to exorcise demons from them by wrapping them in blankets and then kneeling on their chests.

And, yet, somehow life goes on
Quoted for emphasis.
Quoted again for emphasizing the emphasis.

or self-proclaimed preachers who accidentally kill young autistic boys (http://www.rickross.com/reference/exorcism/exorcism12.html) by attempting to exorcise demons from them by wrapping them in blankets and then kneeling on their chests.Isn't that how Chicago Hope ended?

Islam proclaims men superior to women
Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission
Islam is intolerant of other beliefs
Islam encourages 'honor' killings
Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

religion of peace my ass...

Judging all Muslims by sensationalized reports like this is like me judging all Christians by the annoyance of being woken up too damn early in the morning on Saturday by Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door, or self-proclaimed preachers who accidentally kill young autistic boys (http://www.rickross.com/reference/exorcism/exorcism12.html) by attempting to exorcise demons from them by wrapping them in blankets and then kneeling on their chests.


Hey quiz-kid, since when are JW's Christians?

Islam is still the most demented and silly of all major religions. Allah Smallah! :)

Isn't that how Chicago Hope ended?

I couldn't say, as I never watch the show. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they took the idea from the headlines. E.R. does that all the time, or at least they used to.

I couldn't say, as I never watch the show. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they took the idea from the headlines. E.R. does that all the time, or at least they used to.Ahhgg! My joke is ruined!

Hey quiz-kid, since when are JW's Christians?


Since they said so. I have no way to verify the accuracy of any religion, aside from perhaps Roman Catholicism, Russian/Greek Orthodoxy, Lutherans, and Calvinists, stating that they are Christians, so if they say they are, then I suppose I'll just have to take their word for it.

Ahhgg! My joke is ruined!

Yeah, I'm good that way.

Since they said so. I have no way to verify the accuracy of any religion, aside from perhaps Roman Catholicism, Russian/Greek Orthodoxy, Lutherans, and Calvinists, stating that they are Christians, so if they say they are, then I suppose I'll just have to take their word for it.

Last time I checked, JW's don't believe Jesus is the son of god, or do they now?

Islam proclaims men superior to women

No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an, please.

Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission

Yes ... submission to Allah ... to GOD ... not to any human or humanoid type god-man.

Islam is intolerant of other beliefs

No it isn't. Source from Qur'an, please.

Islam encourages 'honor' killings

No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an, please.

Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an please.

I really just need a macro for that.

I really just need a macro for that.
$GIMME_FRIGGIN_SOURCES?

Islam proclaims men superior to women

Really? I read that Muhammad was the one that pushed for more legal rights for women in marriage...very progressive of him to do so in the 7th century, don't you think?

Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission

Yes, but by submission, they mean submission to God, not to any earthly agency.

Islam is intolerant of other beliefs

And other religions aren't?

Islam encourages 'honor' killings

According to Islamic law, only if the woman is first proven by a court to have committed the alleged offense, much like our own American concept of "Innocent until proven guilty." The killings occuring in places like Afghanistan, and in the linked article, are done outside of Islamic law, and therefore not condoned by the actual teachings of Islam.

Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

I don't know enough to comment on this, so I won't. However, there is a recent rash of female teachers in the United States being caught having sex with their teenage male students, yet I haven't seen a huge uproar by Christians in this country about it...


religion of peace my ass...

I'll restate my opinion: Judging a modern-day religion as a whole based upon the actions of an extremist minority or bygone history, is foolish.

Islam proclaims men superior to women
Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission
Islam is intolerant of other beliefs
Islam encourages 'honor' killings
Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

religion of peace my ass...

*laughs at other poster's ignorance*
*laughs hysterically at seeing at least two rather sick puns in the other guy's post*

Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) are members of a worldwide Christian denomination who actively share with others their beliefs about God.
-wikipedia.com


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witness

Really? I read that Muhammad was the one that pushed for more legal rights for women in marriage...very progressive of him to do so in the 7th century, don't you think?

what a pity his followers seem to disagree.


Yes, but by submission, they mean submission to God, not to any earthly agency.

they mean compulsory submission of all people


And other religions aren't?

not anymore, the dark ages are over


According to Islamic law, only if the woman is first proven by a court to have committed the alleged offense, much like our own American concept of "Innocent until proven guilty." The killings occuring in places like Afghanistan, and in the linked article, are done outside of Islamic law, and therefore not condoned by the actual teachings of Islam.

The islamic republic of Iran has a weird interpretation of Islam then:

man+woman commit 'adultery', man gets 100 lashes, woman gets hanged. Also the testimony of 1 man is weighed equal to the testimony of 4 women.

*laughs at other poster's ignorance*
*laughs hysterically at seeing at least two rather sick puns in the other guy's post*

why? because I am not suckered by the propaganda like many others are?

Since they said so. I have no way to verify the accuracy of any religion, aside from perhaps Roman Catholicism, Russian/Greek Orthodoxy, Lutherans, and Calvinists, stating that they are Christians, so if they say they are, then I suppose I'll just have to take their word for it.

actually, jws would say they are not christians, as they jsut believe jesus was a good man. christian means christ like. they also don;t celebrate christmas or birthdays.

Witnesses identify themselves as Christians, but do not accept doctrines that they believe do not originate in the Bible, even those taught by most other Christian denominations, such as the Trinity or that all true Christians will go to heaven.

!

not anymore, the dark ages are over

What about the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? You're right, the dark ages are over, yet I don't see religious zealots of any religion getting any more tolerant.

The islamic republic of Iran has a weird interpretation of Islam then:
man+woman commit 'adultery', man gets 100 lashes, woman gets hanged. Also the testimony of 1 man is weighed equal to the testimony of 4 women.

Good, good, you're starting to catch on. Yes, there are people deviating greatly in their interpretations of the holy scriptures of Islam, just as there are umpteen different branches of Christanity that all disagree on various points in the Bible, including those that actually believe it only took 6 days to create the world, and those that think (in the United States) that women should be quiet and subservient to men because one passage in the Bible says so. Perhaps rather than attacking the religion as a whole, it would be better to back those Muslims who favor religious reform. That way, we don't give them a common enemy to band together against...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witness

anyone can add to wikepedia. and jw's are not christians...i've been shot dirty looks by them for saying that jesus was the son of god (my great aunt and most of her children are jw.)

why? because I am not suckered by the propaganda like many others are?
No, because you've thrown out wild claims and not given a source. I.E., verse for the Qu'ran, something like that? Until then, you haven't got a case.

ignorance and stupidity make me cry

ignorance and stupidity make me cry
im weeping along with you

they retain their status as christians. they follow Jesus' teachings and the new testament.

why? because I am not suckered by the propaganda like many others are?

If you had ever bothered to actually study Islam, you would realise that the vast majority of what is done in its name are actually the acts of unscrupulous bastards (I believe that is the technical term) who see nothing wrong with perverting what Mohammed actually wrote, said, and did, to server their own purposes.

Kind of what happens with Christianity....

Last time I checked, JW's don't believe Jesus is the son of god, or do they now?

They don't need to. One can be Christian without holding to High Christology. Holding to Low Christology is enough to be called Christian.

Things done in the name of supreme dieties these days is quite tragic. Law is above religion and the murderers will catch as much hell as possible from the court system as they would from their god of choice.

look, i think we all need to cool down a little here.

I recommend researching Islam from people who actually practise it, and perhaps we can all just get along a little better. People do bad things, and lately Islam has been given a pretty bad rap. Like was mentioned earlier, christians have done terrible things before, so have people from every religious background.

lets try to look for god, and not blatantly throw hate around, shall we?

It's a question of a value system.

It can be a religion of "peace" because Muslims define "peace" as "everyone is Muslim". When someone isn't Muslim, killing them just for that reason is in principle permitted, although not encouraged as a first option. The first option is trying to get them to convert, and when they don't, other means might be employed. (However, they can accept religious minorities, as long as they have no political power and don't voice their views.)

Only men are considered to be "human" in the sense we say "human rights" and "all humans are created equal". Thus, it's perfectly acceptable to kill non-"humans" as women. The law of Islam would actually condemn both adulterers, not only women to death, but strangely this law is never obeyed as is: it's always the woman who gets killed, even if the man raped her.

Moreover, if you ask Muslim women if they've experienced violence, they would say "no". The reason is this: they consider it violence only when hospitalization results. Muslim men are allowed, and will hit women.

Islam is a religion of war and oppression, and promotes violence, if we use the popular meanings.

We should also notice that the modern democracy is not there because of Christianity, quite the opposite, but is founded on secular principles. Free speech, for example, is unjustifiable in few dominant religions. To this date, Islam, Christianity and Communism all permit death sentences for "blasphemy" (terms vary).

here's a nice verse:

– Surah 9:5

Find and slay the pagans [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent [convert to Islam], and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, them open up a way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful ...


wow, how peaceful :rolleyes:

look, i think we all need to cool down a little here.

I recommend researching Islam from people who actually practise it, and perhaps we can all just get along a little better. People do bad things, and lately Islam has been given a pretty bad rap. Like was mentioned earlier, christians have done terrible things before, so have people from every religious background.

lets try to look for god, and not blatantly throw hate around, shall we?

Ah, the voice of reason. Don't expect to be listened to around here. :(

here's a nice verse:

– Surah 9:5

Find and slay the pagans [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent [convert to Islam], and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, them open up a way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful ...


wow, how peaceful :rolleyes:
I can't seem to find that in an online copy, however, I don't claim to know how the Qu'ran is organized.

Keruvalia, perhaps you can help me here?

here's a nice verse:

– Surah 9:5

Find and slay the pagans [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent [convert to Islam], and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, them open up a way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful ...


wow, how peaceful :rolleyes:

Taken so far out of context, it actually gave me cancer.

People don't fight wars with kid gloves, you know. Read the ayyats before and after it ... better yet, read the whole Surah! When Qur'an mentions "pagans" it doesn't mean "non-Muslims" as you assert.

This referrs specifically to the Arab Pagans who declared war on Islam. Are you saying that the only way to be peaceful is to let people slaughter you like cattle?

See the quote in my sig .... a quote from a MUSLIM! pwned.

Now go forth and stop spreading lies.

Islam proclaims men superior to women
Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission
Islam is intolerant of other beliefs
Islam encourages 'honor' killings
Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

religion of peace my ass...

Christianity proclaims men superior to women, it even goes so far as to state that god explicitly commands that women not speak in church and ask their husbands if they have questions about christianity.
Christianity is a religion of submission, it asks that people put their complete faith in their religion and submit to all of its rules.
Christianity is intolerant of other beliefs, it announces that it is the only way to salvation, and that at the end of the world people from other religions will be tortured.
Christianity encourages honor killings, such as the stoning to death of women who have sex outside of religious marriage.
Christianity does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it with ideas like "that was the age at which people used to marry."


Should we then condemn christianity as a hateful mess of savage, backwards and dangerous superstition?

Muslims define "peace" as "everyone is Muslim". When someone isn't Muslim

Wrong.

killing them just for that reason is in principle permitted

Wrong. Killing, except in war - and there are Qur'anic rules to war - is never permissible.

Only men are considered to be "human" in the sense we say "human rights" and "all humans are created equal".

Wrong.

Muslim men are allowed, and will hit women.

Wrong.

Islam is a religion of war and oppression, and promotes violence, if we use the popular meanings.

Good thing we don't use popular meanings and use only reality to define things. Islam is a religion of peace.

To this date, Islam, Christianity and Communism all permit death sentences for "blasphemy" (terms vary).

Some Muslim countries do, yes, but the death penalty is not sanctioned in Islam for blasphemy. Allah specifically says to leave the apostate and blasphemers alone because it is Allah who will deal with them.

I pine for the good old days of religionism when religionists bashed religions AFTER reading up on a religion, now they just watch a few news stories and go off on hateful rampages. And of course they ignore the horrible thing 'mainstream' extremists do, These people love ragging on the 'horrible things' that al qaeda and palestinians and islam extremists and what not are doing. but does anyone ever mention the PIRA or the Ulsters? how about the KKK they're still around and they definately still lynch and threaten, even the Basques and the occaisional Nazis and extremist communists are dropping out of the limelight. they still do pretty nasty stuff and are still extreme and (arguably) evil.

Before I kick this off, I'd like to say I'm of neither religion, but this is getting dumb.

Islam proclaims men superior to women
Islam demands submission,
The word Islam means submission
Islam is intolerant of other beliefs
Islam encourages 'honor' killings
Islam does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it

religion of peace my ass...

As nice as it is to be delusional... The one thing I find that variates from Christianity is that Christianity doesn't mean submission.

The Christian God proclaims male superiority, demands submission to Him, is intolerant of other beliefs, and encourages killing for just about any sin (Old Testament, whether you like it or not IS part of the Christian Bible and the basis of Christianity).

Now then, as long as we're being general... Islam and the holy book of Islam are two different things, as are Christianity and the holy book of Christianity. If you want to say Islam endorses pedophilia, you have to make note of the Catholic faith which condones the actions of pedophilic preists.

To be honest, other than in anti-Muslim propaganda, I've never heard any of that to be true.

And how many of those bad things that you say about Muslims can you not say is also true for Christians? Not many.

Der Spiegel (http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344374,00.html)

Ah, I remember another religion that was just as barbaric if not more so in it's infancy....it was called Christianity.

One might look back upon such things as the Salem witch burnings, the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms, and also wonder if Christianity was a religion of peace...

www.religioustolerance.org

why? because I am not suckered by the propaganda like many others are?
I love the irony of this statement combinedd with the name of the poster.

While debate of controversial subjects is welcomed on NationStates, we NationStates Moderators insist that such debate remain civil. As part of this, we prohibit the practice of making statements intended to deliberately anger people (called "trolling").

Of course, controversial discussions are going to draw the ire of both sides of the discussion as a matter of course. However, to avoid being officially warned for trolling, you should get into the habit of providing hyperlinks to sources of information that you feel back up your opinions.

Let me reiterate that: If you're going to make controversial statements, then be prepared to back them up. It also helps if you're polite and respectful towards your opposition.

With all of that said, the participants may carry on, adjusting their behavior as necessary to comply with the above.

Besides these general comments, I have replies to the following specific posts:

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here's a nice verse:

– Surah 9:5

Find and slay the pagans [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent [convert to Islam], and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, them open up a way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful ...


wow, how peaceful :rolleyes:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8336914&postcount=290

:rolleyes:

The funny thing is, that none of you have brung up Wicca or Paganism yet. That religion IS undertanding, cognition, and acceptance. HA! Lol. And I'm more than happy to argue my point.

Actually, it's not a religion of peace. It's a religion of submission. Biiig difference. I suppose various sects of Islam might be considered peaceful, like Quakers are for christianity, but the religion as a whole is in no way, shape, or form a religion of peace.

Does islam promote violence or intolerance? Let's see:

Here's a Surrah for you, from the Holy Book of Common Sense, King Pepe Edition:

"O! And Allah said unto thee, verily: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. And it was true."

And no, it ain't just the Wahabis. Grow up.

Christianity proclaims men superior to women, it even goes so far as to state that god explicitly commands that women not speak in church and ask their husbands if they have questions about christianity.
Christianity is a religion of submission, it asks that people put their complete faith in their religion and submit to all of its rules.
Christianity is intolerant of other beliefs, it announces that it is the only way to salvation, and that at the end of the world people from other religions will be tortured.
Christianity encourages honor killings, such as the stoning to death of women who have sex outside of religious marriage.
Christianity does not condemn paedophilia, rather it rationalizes it with ideas like "that was the age at which people used to marry."


Should we then condemn christianity as a hateful mess of savage, backwards and dangerous superstition?

I want to argue that all things you have just stated here come from wrong interpretations of the bible. Sadly, a lot of Christians (whom I have difficulties calling "Christians" at all, the way they behave) share such views, altough they are easily disproved.

Christianity does not proclaim men to be superior to women. There is one passage where Paul writes on this issue (the one mentioned about women talking in church; 1st Corinthian 14, 34). Now some Christians pick that passage and proclaim "Hah, we knew it! Women keep quiet in church!" Idiots they are! First, Paul didn't make a general statement there, he wrote to one specific church with one specific problem: The church of Corinth, who had some problems with rather oppressive women who wanted to order everyone around. Second, the greek word used in this passage refers to "talking in tongues" rather to general speaking. So women are not allowed to "talk in tongues" in church. Again, we do not know the reasons exactly. But one thing is for sure: Paul didn't write a letter to Christianity, he wrote a letter to the church of Corinth and what may be good for their ears to hear, doesn't have to be the right thing for us, for we have other problems than they had.

From everything I read in the bible, I have believe that the scripture proclaims that men and women have different roles, not that one is superior. Men are head, women are heart. Or, differently explained, men are to be the rationality, women the emotion. Both should complete eachother. The only reasons why the scripture states that men are superior at the present time is because of the Fall. Because of the Fall, humanity is no longer in its natural state of equality, but men took over. It isn't something which should last, but something which exists in our fallen world.

Rules? When Jesus and Paul are correct, there is only one rule: to love eachother. And don't you think our world would need a little submission to love?

Christianity announces that one way of salvation is through Jesus Christ's death. If you would read closer, you would see that there are other ways of salvation too. First, god can be seen in nature without hearing scripture. Second, god will judge by what people had done during their lifes with what they had known. Did they help when someone needed help? Or where they rather greedy and selfish? This is written in Matthew 25, 31-46. So, if there are at least two other ways, who says that there aren't more?

Christianity never announces to kill people of different faiths for being unfaithfull, at least the scripture doesn't. I know that you will quote the Old Testament now, but that is an entirely different case, as I will explain.

During the time of the Old Testament, god used the Hebrews to furfill his plan. In fact, he wanted to show that humanity can't be saved through The Law, for they can never furfill it. Paul explains this quite good in the letter to the Romans. The Law of god states that punishment for not furfilling it is death. In this sense all what happened during the Old Testament can be explained. The Old Testament is filled with the futile attempts of the Hebrews to furfill god's law. The Hebrews utterly failed, as you might know, for no one can furfill god's law. Therefore, Christianity states, Jesus had to endure the punishment meant for us, so that we don't have to endure it ourselves.

During the New Testament, God changed his plan. His son, Jesus, died in order to furfill the Law of god and to endure the punishment. By doing this, humans no longer have to endure god's punishment (eternal death and absence from god), since the law is now satisfied. At least, this is what Christianity teaches.

About the stoning, you refer to the law of the Old Testament. Most of the laws stated there where meant to govern a people, specificly the Hebrews. Those were laws for a nation, not religious laws. And they were quite sophisticated, compared to other laws existing during that time. The law of the Old Testament states rules for hygiene, for the protection of strangers, children, slaves and women and has rather fair punishment and trials (during those times, most punishments were death-sentences; the Old Testament has a lot of laws stating punishments of payment, like for stolen goods). One may only be trialed if there are at least three witnesses. The exception is rape, where the criminal had to endure death. To slander a woman was punished with payment (100 Shekel) and beats.

And I acctually have now idea how you come to the idea of paedophilia...

And I acctually have now idea how you come to the idea of paedophilia...

Really you don't know Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was nine? (and himself was in his fifties?) Which makes him a f*ing pedophile, in addition to being a burglar and a murderer.

here's a nice verse:

– Surah 9:5

Find and slay the pagans [non-Muslims] wherever you find them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent [convert to Islam], and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, them open up a way for them: for Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful ...


wow, how peaceful :rolleyes:

Ah, but how bout this, a bit more concise but still poignant:

18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18

So okay, he wasn't talking specifically of pagans in the Surah...but it sprang to mind as I've had the verse cross me more than once. *is a neo-pagan*

Ah, but how bout this, a bit more concise but still poignant:

18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Exodus 22:18

So okay, he wasn't talking specifically of pagans in the Surah...but it sprang to mind as I've had the verse cross me more than once. *is a neo-pagan*
Cause that's a case of mistranslation. It's either poisoner or evil person, depending on who you talk to who has read the original hebrew.

Really you don't know Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was nine? (and himself was in his fifties?) Which makes him a f*ing pedophile, in addition to being a burglar and a murderer.

I was talking about Christianity, not Islam, when I said this. So don't take things out of their context.

Cause that's a case of mistranslation. It's either poisoner or evil person, depending on who you talk to who has read the original hebrew.

You are quite right. A lot of false interpretations of the bible can be explained with false translation. Just like my example of women not talking during sermon which acctually means "talking in tongues" (one of the spiritual gifts) and not speaking.

There are others, like the passage "do not judge or you shall be judged". The greek word there rather means "condmen" than "judge".

No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an, please.



Yes ... submission to Allah ... to GOD ... not to any human or humanoid type god-man.



No it isn't. Source from Qur'an, please.



No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an, please.



No it doesn't. Source from Qur'an please.

I really just need a macro for that.


The Quran on woman, but as a side note I have noticed something. When promoting Islam the it is often mentioned to read the Quran and when someone says anything negative about Islam people then say show me quotes from Quran.

The problem is the pseudo-perfect self-defense mechanism. If the Quran is quoted and it clearly shows the point offered then it is of course always taken out of context. What a perfect excuse everytime to rationalize things.

For example: Islam is peace it says so in the Quran.

Islam considers women to be worth less than men it says so in the Quran.

No that is taken out of context one must read the whole Quran or the quote is dismissed. Well by the time you quote the entire book and someone has read it the debate has long since passed by.

The Quran is specific in some areas and like other "revealed religons" it just does not make the grade IMO. Here are some quotes from Quran on women and exactly what Quran thinks of woman.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

The Quran says to "scourge" a woman.

Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 34 it is in the link in the post above.

Scourge:whip serious affliction.

And, yet, somehow life goes on and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Probably because most of us see the 99.9% good in Islam, rather than try to claim that the 0.01% makes up the greater whole.

Go figure.

Life goes on, but not for the murdered girl, and her son, mother, father and three brothers who have to live with the grief and/or the knowledge that they killed their sister, for the rest of their lives. Even though Muhammed did have a progressive view on women's liberties and the Quran does seem to promote equality in many ways, honour killings remains a big problem for Islam, and I'm surprised that we don't see Muslims, and especially imams, denouncing them and other arcaic, oppressing practices that are all too common in Muslim communities. Criticizing evil practices within a religion is not the same a to say the religion as a whole is evil. Christianity has gone through a lot of reform since the arcaic laws of the Bible were written, and Islam is badly in need for a similar introspection... or what, Keruvalia? In my opinion saying that Islam doesn't have these problems because the actual text of the book itself is pro-equality and doesn't condone murders, just doesn't cut it. You can't see the religion and what its adherents do as two completely different things, isolated from one another. I think actually the fact that the Quran is seen as the infallible word of God might contribute to the problem... it doesn't exactly encourage discussion and change, but seems to cause an exaggerated respect for authority and gives people the idea that the imams know everything. Or why is it that I mainly see non-Muslims pointing out these problems in Islam?

One famous exeption that I know about, is a Muslim girl in Norway whose family wanted her to have a pharaonic circumcition. She went to several local imams and asked them whether she really had to do this, while having a camera hidden in her clothes and secretly recording their replies. They said she should go through with it! Yet when journalists asked them about it, they claimed they were totally against female genital mutilation. She had her tapes shown on tv and left her family. This brave girl thus escaped torture and mutilation, and probably helped many other girls and families who were facing the same problem.

FMG is not Islamic, but rather cultural. It's common in many north African countries, among animists as well as muslims. If her iman recommended it, he was probably from that area also. Most Muslims are not in favor of FMG, it's just like saying Fred Phelps represents all Christians.

it could be considered that Christianity is a living body of work whose responsibilities to the faithful are always being redefined. From the works of the early church fathers to the latest papal encylicals there is an effort to make sure that we move forward morally. There is no disussion amongst muslims regarding the koran, it just is. Slaves to a dead work of fiction that prevents any progress.

Christians at work:
http://www.geocities.com/iconoclastes.geo/victims.html

And to see how ignorant you are of Communist atrocities:
http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/museum1.cgi

Oh, and Hitler wasn't a Christian...
http://www.nationalreview.com/shiflett/shiflett012102.shtml

The funny thing is, that none of you have brung up Wicca or Paganism yet. That religion IS undertanding, cognition, and acceptance. HA! Lol. And I'm more than happy to argue my point.
No one needs religion to be an understanding and accepting person. You can be a perfectly ethical nonreligious person. The only good reason I can think of why anyone would be religious is if the religion was actually correct - if its claims of God and heaven and hell and whatnot actually was true. That said, wicca is a hard sell because all the spells and gods and stuff sounds bogus.

Really you don't know Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was nine? (and himself was in his fifties?) Which makes him a f*ing pedophile, in addition to being a burglar and a murderer.

When/what did he steal? When/who did he murder?

As for the false accusations that Muhammad was a pedophile, read this.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm

One famous exeption that I know about, is a Muslim girl in Norway whose family wanted her to have a pharaonic circumcition. She went to several local imams and asked them whether she really had to do this, while having a camera hidden in her clothes and secretly recording their replies. They said she should go through with it! Yet when journalists asked them about it, they claimed they were totally against female genital mutilation. She had her tapes shown on tv and left her family. This brave girl thus escaped torture and mutilation, and probably helped many other girls and families who were facing the same problem.

Circumcision is not in the Qur'an but it was a practice amongst MALES during the time however it was not a directly religious thing. As for female circumcision, its is COMPLETELY optional and if it is done, it has to be done so in a way that it would not cause harm to the woman and would not affect her sexual enjoyment. In fact, a woman is allowed to divorce her husband if he is not giving her sexual satisfaction. It follows that Islamic law prohibits clitorodectomy (partial or complete) or infibulation, or any genital mutilation which impairs the woman's ability to enjoy sexual relations.

People confuse local culture and Islam. In Africa, female circumcision does happen but not so often. It is all part of local culture and tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.

When/what did he steal? When/who did he murder?

As for the false accusations that Muhammad was a pedophile, read this.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/prophet_aisha.htm
Whatever the DSM IV states is the definition of pedophilia, in general context it means that one had sex with a prepubecent girl. Period. If it was done knowing she was prepubescent than most normal people would consider the person in question to be a pedophile. How you would not know a girl is prepubescent I'm not quite sure, but that's largely irrelevant.

Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996.

In the past four months six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members.

How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe?
Flourishing!? 40 murders in over eight years? Thats less then an average of 5 murders a year.

Islam proclaims men superior to women
Islam demands submission,

Islam is intolerant of other beliefs



Not if you pay jizla ...

Flourishing!? 40 murders in over eight years? Thats less then an average of 5 murders a year.
True, but these murders are unique in their purpose. How many people do you personally know who would murder their sister because she had sex with someone the family disapproved of. Of course, many of the honor killings are for even less than that.

True, but these murders are unique in their purpose. How many people do you personally know who would murder their sister because she had sex with someone the family disapproved of. Of course, many of the honor killings are for even less than that.
Yeah I know it's terrible, but there are some bastards out there, it crosses all religions and non-religions too.

Taken so far out of context, it actually gave me cancer.

People don't fight wars with kid gloves, you know. Read the ayyats before and after it ... better yet, read the whole Surah! When Qur'an mentions "pagans" it doesn't mean "non-Muslims" as you assert.

This referrs specifically to the Arab Pagans who declared war on Islam. Are you saying that the only way to be peaceful is to let people slaughter you like cattle?

See the quote in my sig .... a quote from a MUSLIM! pwned.

Now go forth and stop spreading lies.
The problem is that there are a percentage of muslims who do interpret the koran as a call to war against unbeleivers. Nobody can deny that groups like Al Quaeda, Abu Sayyaf, and Jemmah Islamiya (don't think I spelled that last one right) are advocating the use of force to establish muslim theocracies. There are christian terrorists too, but they seem to be few and far between compared to the muslim ones.

Religious bickering gets on my nerves. Why don't you all shut up and be on with it. Leave each other's beliefs alone, and they'll leave you alone. Thank you and good night.

FMG is not Islamic, but rather cultural. It's common in many north African countries, among animists as well as muslims. If her iman recommended it, he was probably from that area also. Most Muslims are not in favor of FMG, it's just like saying Fred Phelps represents all Christians.

Yes, I agree :) But it wasn't just one imam, it was two or three from different mosques - they all said the same. They said that as a good Muslim she should do it out of respect for her parents. My point was that it seems the imams (and maybe most Muslims) have too much respect for tradition to actively take part in discussions about Islam in, for instance, newspapers. Islam is being debated (and defended) by non-Muslims all the time, for some reason the Muslims themselves very rarely take part. The ones that do are very often fresh converts.

A long time ago, Kruvalia asked for some Citations. I could either post a LOOONG cut-n-paste or just give y'all a couple of Links.

First though, a disclaimer: In deference to Kruvalia, Yes, there are tens of thousands of Muslims that personally do not suppoort terrorisim. Unfortunately, with a very few exceptions (http://freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=439), they are not vocal about it. Therefore, the Vocal, Terroristic, Theopolitical branch(es) of Islam are the ascendent ones - simply because they aren't publically slapped down by the Imams - in fact, Moderate Muslims and intellectuals often find themselves in extreme danger (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=IA20805) for speaking out. Stop the Hate: Islamo-Fascism's Battle Against Moderate Muslims (http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2004/12/002552print.php)

Refutation of Islam as doctrinally peaceful (http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch7.html)

So in reality, If, and Only If and Until "Peaceful Muslims" rise up and squash the Theopolitical Islamofacisists who are demanding and acting toward Global Sharia, it will continue to be the situation where Islam - in general - will be considered to be the problem. (As was Theopolitical Christianity during the Inquisition)

Circumcision is not in the Qur'an but it was a practice amongst MALES during the time however it was not a directly religious thing. As for female circumcision, its is COMPLETELY optional and if it is done, it has to be done so in a way that it would not cause harm to the woman and would not affect her sexual enjoyment. In fact, a woman is allowed to divorce her husband if he is not giving her sexual satisfaction. It follows that Islamic law prohibits clitorodectomy (partial or complete) or infibulation, or any genital mutilation which impairs the woman's ability to enjoy sexual relations.

People confuse local culture and Islam. In Africa, female circumcision does happen but not so often. It is all part of local culture and tradition and has nothing to do with Islam.

Again I know, but why don't imams publicly announce this? :confused: As long as it is believed by some Muslims that they have to do this for religious reasons, the Muslim community should address it, shouldn't they? It does not happen to only a few. In Ethiopia, for instance, 80 % of the women are infibulated. And it's not optional for the girl in question, it is imposed on her by her parents.

Ah, I remember another religion that was just as barbaric if not more so in it's infancy....it was called Christianity.

One might look back upon such things as the Salem witch burnings, the crusades, the inquisition, the pogroms, and also wonder if Christianity was a religion of peace...

Yes, but Islam, Christianity, Jewish...are not in their infancy. These are established religions. When was the last time there was a "stoning" done by Christians in a civilized (re: not Third World) nation?

I did not mean to place this post as a slam against Islam. I have always thought that Islam, along with the major religions of the world, have all had their violent pasts, but for the most part believe that peaceful co-existance is the goal. Let others live their lives, pray to whatever god and let him decide the outcome of that persons afterlife. But if there isn't an outcry from the moderate Muslims, doesn't it give the appearence that this is condoned by the majority of Muslims?

Keru, is there a site that you could direct me to that is a decent source of Islam and the interpitations of the Quran?

The fact is the fanatics of ANY religion tend to place that religion in a bad "light." Right now it is Islam because of the up swing in international terrorist attacks seemed to be perpatraited by Muslims in the name of Allah.

Are these fanatics REALLY speaking for the rest of the Muslim world? Or are these few, in comparision to the whole Islam religion, twisting the Quran and Shira Law to meet their own demented views?

If this is the case why haven't we seen an outcry by the other, supposedly, majority of Muslims that share a different interpatation of the Quran?

Is there something in it that doesn't allow other Muslims to speak out against other Muslims NO matter what they do, as long as it is in the name of Allah?

Can we drop the accusations against entire religions, please? The fact of the matter is that religions are fairly similar to each other in terms of individual rights and the persuit of peace. In spite of this, there will always be people who use their religions to justify horrific acts. This includes all major religions, from Christianity, to Islam, to even Buddhism.

This is the fault of the individuals, and not the religion to which they claim to adhere. So instead of starting more religious conflicts, like stupid people have been for thousands of years, let's start getting smarter and focus on the radical behaviors and individual detrimental beliefs themselves.

During the New Testament, God changed his plan. His son, Jesus, died in order to furfill the Law of god and to endure the punishment. By doing this, humans no longer have to endure god's punishment (eternal death and absence from god), since the law is now satisfied. At least, this is what Christianity teaches.



God never changed his plan. He didn't "wake up" one day and say, "Dangit, now I gotta go die for them." Sending Jesus to die for us was his plan from the beginning. The law was enacted to point the Israelites to the Messiah, to show them that they would never be perfect, and could not be saved by the law. It took a blood sacrifice of a spotless lamb (parallels Jewish sacrificial tradition) to remove their sins. Jesus became that lamb, and whoever turns to Him and accepts Him as their savior and messiah, will be saved.

And if you look carefully, there are tons of references in the Old Testament of the coming messiah, starting as early as Genesis !

God never changed his plan. <snip> ...
if you look carefully, there are tons of references in the Old Testament of the coming messiah, starting as early as Genesis !

I think everyone here might find these 3 works to be enlightening:

Skeptic's Annotated Bible (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/) Contradictions (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)
Skeptics Annotated "Koran" (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html) Contradictions (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html)
Skeptic Annotated Book of Mormon (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.html) Plagarisim (not too many contradictions) (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/plag.html)

'Bout the only thing I can really infer from all this is that the longer Humans have to tweak their Religions, the more inconsistant they become.

Believe what you want to believe - unless that belief includes trying to coerce/force/(kill) me into your religion. I tend to shoot back first.

<Snip>
Keru, is there a site that you could direct me to that is a decent source of Islam and the interpitations of the Quran?

There is a Website (http://ishwar.com/) that specializes in "Holy Texts" There are 4 translations/transliterations of the Koran there (http://ishwar.com/islam/)

Is there something in it that doesn't allow other Muslims to speak out against other Muslims NO matter what they do, as long as it is in the name of Allah?

Yes. See http://www.muslimwakeup.com/main/archives/2004/12/002552print.php and
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=jihad&ID=IA20805 among others.

Did I kill this thread?

It seemed to be going so well....

Did I kill this thread?

It seemed to be going so well....

It seems fairly clear that neither Christianity nor Isalm can by bring peace to the world. I will take a new religion with a new name just as is predicited in the Bible.


3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

(King James Bible, Revelation)

Can we drop the accusations against entire religions, please? The fact of the matter is that religions are fairly similar to each other in terms of individual rights and the persuit of peace. In spite of this, there will always be people who use their religions to justify horrific acts. This includes all major religions, from Christianity, to Islam, to even Buddhism.

This is the fault of the individuals, and not the religion to which they claim to adhere. So instead of starting more religious conflicts, like stupid people have been for thousands of years, let's start getting smarter and focus on the radical behaviors and individual detrimental beliefs themselves.

Ahhh, the voice of reason. Such an unusual thing here. Tell me, what makes you think anyone is going to listen to you?
(NB: not intented as a criticism of you)