NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, before the flaming begins, do yourself a favor and read this editorial (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=d0ee0f9d-2cda-491e-b603-ef6687df8318). Did you read it? No? Well, last chance (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=d0ee0f9d-2cda-491e-b603-ef6687df8318).

For some time now, Canada has played internationally the role of that kid everyone knew in school, who always portrayed an image totally out of touch with the reality everyone could see. Sure, they have a nominal set of armed forces, but they are extremely small, under-funded, and very inoffensive. And this is just one example.

The editorial board of the National Post takes its own country to task with a scathing editorial, published on February 26th, 2005. May this editorial serve as a wakeup call to our northern neighbors...it's time to either make the nation's actions in foreign policy match its rhetoric, or scale down the rhetoric and accept the fact that Canada has become France and Germany's lapdog in international affairs. Simple as that.

*Grabs a bag of marshmallows and a stick. Waits for flames....

First off, nobody in Canada really takes the National Post seriously.

However, our government has taken the attitude that social programs such as Medicare and Welfare are more important than the military. I for one agree with that. As far as the Star Wars thing goes, well, the Americans say they're gonna do it and protect us anyways, so what was the point anyways?

Where is CanuckHeaven when you need her?

The basic premise of the article is wrong. Foreign policy isn't all-important.

However, our government has taken the attitude that social programs such as Medicare and Welfare are more important than the military.
I guess this explains why so many Canadians come to the US for medical care they would otherwise have to wait in line for, if they stayed in Canada. It also explains why the "Canadian Forces" are normally just an afterthought in any NATO military plan.

The basic premise of the article is wrong. Foreign policy isn't all-important.

It might not be all important, but it can't be neglected either. All talk and no action is one surefire way to get ignored and/or laughed at.

The basic premise of the article is wrong. Foreign policy isn't all-important.
And yet Canada feels the obligation to lecture the US on foreign policy?

It might not be all important, but it can't be neglected either. All talk and no action is one surefire way to get ignored and/or laughed at.
You have described Canada's international stance in a marvelous manner.

Two points in favor of the editorial.

1) Canada's deployment lag in the Tsunami disaster pointed to serious weaknessess in their response capability. This weakness was both a military and a civil problem as it prevented them from responding to a crisis. Canada has long neglected even the most basic of its military capabilities; and is now paying the price.

2) Notes about the inconsistent message of just what is Canada's posture in the world's affairs are understandable; a nation should have at least a fair grip on its own identity.

Still, asking Canada to be consistently "on message" in all things is a little silly; its a government made up of diverse groups of people right? Not a machine. The problems with its military capacity can be addressed through a reshaping of procurement policy within the military. It does not really require a drastic shift in policy.

I guess this explains why so many Canadians come to the US for medical care they would otherwise have to wait in line for, if they stayed in Canada. It also explains why the "Canadian Forces" are normally just an afterthought in any NATO military plan.

I've never heard this before in my life, where did you get this information, I live a mere hour from the U.S. and never in my life have I heard of going to the U.S. for treatment.

Yeah, so what, we're not too worried about the Canadian forces, you make that sound like its suppose to be an insult or something, was that your intent?

Yeah, so what, we're not too worried about the Canadian forces, you make that sound like its suppose to be an insult or something, was that your intent?


Got your helmet and boots on Saskatoon? Cause last few post looks like your having to defend alot. GL

I've never heard this before in my life, where did you get this information, I live a mere hour from the U.S. and never in my life have I heard of going to the U.S. for treatment.I have lived in Florida. Every day, the number of cars with Canada plates in the parking lots of hospitals and medical facilities in Florida can be overwhelming. And it isn't just grandmas and grandpas getting treated for heat exhaustion or heart attacks. No, we're talking about day-to-day care, too. Go to any hospital in any state bordering Canada...Canadian plates galore. Universal medicine works, eh?

Yeah, so what, we're not too worried about the Canadian forces, you make that sound like its suppose to be an insult or something, was that your intent?
Nothing against the members of the Candian forces...a brave bunch of folks, doing what they can with what little they get. And it's precisely because of what they get from their government that they are a footnote in NATO.

I have lived in Florida. Every day, the number of cars with Canada plates in the parking lots of hospitals and medical facilities in Florida can be overwhelming. And it isn't just grandmas and grandpas getting treated for heat exhaustion or heart attacks. No, we're talking about day-to-day care, too. Go to any hospital in any state bordering Canada...Canadian plates galore. Universal medicine works, eh?


Nothing against the members of the Candian forces...a brave bunch of folks, doing what they can with what little they get. And it's precisely because of what they get from their government that they are a footnote in NATO.

Meh, I perfer ensuring that everyone has healthcare as opposed to just letting millions not have healthcare at all.

No, I was implying that you seemed to be trying to insult Canada as a nation, nothing to do with the individuals of the military at all. And i still get that impression right now, and yet, I'm not insultated.

on one part, slightly off topic, while america did put in a big effort with the tsunami recovery, it did take them a bit of prompting, almost betraying the true nature of their foreign policy (where were they when east timor happened?) and if foreign policy shows the nature of countries, then america is the school yard bully....

anyway, back on topic, i have to agree, you dont hear much about Canada on the international stage. but then again, people dismiss canada as being the 51st state of america, much like they dismiss new zealand as being the 7th state of Australia. maybe canada should stand up and show up america

It’s true that Canadian government seems to prefer the isolationist approach, and there’s nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Would you have a problem if Canada just said one day “since we contribute a negligible amount of aid, and military spending is poor we will pull all military and aid affairs out of the world back to Canada and quit even pretending to make a difference.” ? Would the blunt truth that we want to address our issues her at home more than ones outside our boarder make you happy?

You see, nations that have huge military budgets and huge aid to GDP ratios are all also running huge deficits with no foreseeable plans to eliminate those deficits. In all truth the United States of America CANNOT keep up such high military and aid spending (along with many other programs) without suffering huge economic repercussions. So while America’s sending huge amounts of money out of the nation and into the military, they neglect problems with their healthcare, their education, and their Social security.

You said our universal medical doesn’t work, prove it! I’d rather wait a few weeks for heart surgery than have to sell my house to afford it; to have to keep working while receiving chemotherapy to treat cancer in the United States.

The no child left behind programs a joke. The government blackmails teachers by forcing them to teach their students not the curriculum, but how to pass standardized tests. If the kids do well on these tests the government gets bragging rights, and gets to take money out of education. If the kids do poorly on the test, schools are audited and teachers harassed by administration.

America’s pension plan is going to fail because there is not enough support. In Canada WE BIT THE BULLET and paid those higher taxes, and made those plans years ago, and our senior’s pension plan is viable in every projection indefinitely.

Canada is Isolationist
Canadian business is Canada’s contribution to IA
The United States and Nato members huge military budgets will eventually cripple them

Anybody who reads the news in Canada knows the Post is doomed...it's right-wing style has yet to take hold popularly even after - how many years? of Conrad Black dumping money into his perpetual loss machine. Even well-known conservative columnists like Blatchford split with Lord Tubby of Fleet's rag because even they found the Post too right-wing for their tastes.

I saw an interview a few days ago, Paul Cellucci (the US Ambassador to Canada) was asked about Canada's response to the request to join the Missile Defense Shield. The interviewer asked him "What is it exactly that Canada is turning down? What are we being offered here?" and Cellucci's response was "err, uhhhh, well ummm, the opportunity to be in the room when the decisions are being made." The obvious and unspoken addendum was clear: "...by America." Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect Canada might not be at the top of the list for missile attacks. America will make whatever decisions it wants to make, and it won't stop to ask Canada or anyone else, because America doesn't care what anyone else thinks about anything, ever.

While our countries appear very similar on their surfaces, we are very, very different in our values. We believe in diplomacy in its own right, not diplomacy at gunpoint. We believe in democracy, that the people have the right to choose their own way, and we believe that other people in other countries also deserve the right to have their own values. "Exporting Canadian values"...what does that mean? That we should choose what works for us and then try to inflict those choices onto other countries? Hmm, who does that sound like....

Canada also does not have the luxury of being the largest economy on Earth and therefore controlling the world economy. Canada has suffered some enormous economic setbacks in the past few decades, while America has boomed. We have finally got our economic house in order, via some painful cuts in spending in many areas. We chose to cut back on the military and continue to fund universal medical and welfare programs. America chooses to spend what we consider to be obscene amounts of tax dollars on its military while letting many of its citizens to go without basic medical care. That's just one of the differences in who we are.

Personally I am not at all alarmed that Canada doesn't get to be the boss of everyone else. We don't want to be. We will spend what we have available to spend, as our economy allows us to spend. We can rebuild our military to reasonable levels now that funds are becoming available, and we have already begun to do so. But we are not about destroying our economy for our children and their children by spending money we don't have in a vain effort to have the baddest military machine out there. The Missile Defense Shield would not have prevented 9-11, and it will not prevent terrorist attacks from within, which is where the future seems to lie, unfortunately.

I think the article has created a false cause. Underfunded humanitarian efforts don't have anything to do with the military if the government has a seperate branch just for such things. For example, America has the Peace Corps. If the Peace Corps were properly funded, the military would not need to do ANY humanitarian work. However, the Peace Corps is SERIOUSLY underfunded and they are more or less impotent. It seems like Canada has not funded their international humanitarian policies the way they brag to. That is a blow against them. Not having transportation is not necessarily a military problem. The military are not in business to be a shuttle company (like Air Canada), their business is to defend their country and kill who they're told to kill.

To AkhPhasa...bravo.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

i have no problems with the isolationist approach of canada. hell, the swiss have had it for centuries. maybe america should have kept that approach. but i have to admit, with canada being one of the more prosperous nations they could help out occasionally

By golly if we spent billions on needless military hardware (ie. national phallic symbol to youse yanks) and adopted an arrogant jingoistic foreign policy too then we could be friends... um no thanks.

Sure, they have a nominal set of armed forces, but they are extremely small, under-funded, and very inoffensive.
Why should a nation's armed forces be offensive? Are you saying that war is a good thing?

I wont touch on anything except the ABM shield.

Why is it Canada has a problem with acid rain? Because the wind blows all the stuff up into our neighbor. Guess who'll get to share the radiation with the US should we get hit with a missile?

Oh and as for spending needless amounts of money on military equipment..

Canada wants to play the role of peacekeeper? Get a god damn small carrier capable of holding helicopters. And get some damn strategic airlift capabilities. Renting from the Russians is utterly pathetic. No I'm not saying you should spend as much money as the US, nor should you try. But honestly, dont do it halfassed and then wonder why we complain down in the US over your military spending.

on one part, slightly off topic, while america did put in a big effort with the tsunami recovery, it did take them a bit of prompting
Wait a minute here, what are you referring to?

Wait a minute here, what are you referring to?
i am refering to how australia was on the case straight away, helping a lot, while america did only a little till other nations started criticising it. :D

i am refering to how australia was on the case straight away, helping a lot, while america did only a little till other nations started criticising it. :D
The carrier group was ordered there as fast as it could go. I don't see exactly what we could have done that much faster.

[QUOTE=
Canada is Isolationist
Canadian business is Canada’s contribution to IA
The United States and Nato members huge military budgets will eventually cripple them[/QUOTE]


(hissing sound) U.S. balloon losing altitude a bit. When the Earth's axis tilts a bit more and the ice age returns, everybody's gonna head south anyway, so why sink a bunch of money into the property, eh?

The carrier group was ordered there as fast as it could go. I don't see exactly what we could have done that much faster.
not only did we send troops straight away, but the aid money was pretty hefty from the start, where as america's was pittance

not only did we send troops straight away, but the aid money was pretty hefty from the start, where as america's was pittance
*sighs* The original $35 mil. was direct from USAID. It was the max they could give. The $350 million was the most the president could authorize on his own. Congress was not in session and because the powers of the purse lie with congress more money could not be given.

*sighs* The original $35 mil. was direct from USAID. It was the max they could give. The $350 million was the most the president could authorize on his own. Congress was not in session and because the powers of the purse lie with congress more money could not be given.
well, gosh darn, thats odd. our government was in reccess till late jan, yet we still were able to commit so much money and effort in so little time

It is because our pliticians are worried about looking good for the media then actually taking care of things like the military, but about some people saying that Canadians go to the U.S.A. to get medical treatment, my mother just recently beat breast cancer having to go through grueling amounts of kemo therapy and radiation treatments, and not once did she ever go to the states for anything. How many cars do you see in the parking lots of those hospitals in the U.S. with canadian plates, 50? 100? well they must be the rich kind of patience, because I tell you, my family is well off, but my parents have been working for close to 30 years, mother was a teacher and my dad is a city employee for the city I live in, and if we went to the U.S.A. for any kind of medical treatment, we would probably be broke. It is because that Canada offers free medical treatment that people have to wait in line, I remember hearing of a study that an american hospital did where they made everything free for a day or something, and they had the same problems as Canadian hospitals, with lots of people coming in wanting treatment, and with 5 times the population that Canada has, I guarantee that if the U.S.A. would offer free medical service the over crowding in hospitals would be even worse.

So the points are:

Liberals are corrupt, they've been in power too long and we need to try a new government, maybe NDP.

We have too many corrupt politicians and we should crack down on those mofo's before they waste anymore of our money. Come on now, what do we need Adrienne Clarkson for, we have no more need for someone to speak to the Queen, and don't give me that tradition crap, it's the year 2005, the time for tradition is over, get rid of that wrikly old prune of a figure head, she is just a waste of tax payers money.

Well that's all I have to say.

ummm, florida seems a long way to drive for medical treatment. are you sure that they arnt canadian ex-pats living in florida? i know of quite a few WWE canadian wrestlers (jericho, christian, edge, to name a few) that live in tampa and other parts of florida. hell, a couple of days ago there was a simpsons episode where they crossed the border to get medicinal supplys coz it was cheaper

Florida is considered to be "Quebec-South"...many, many old frenchies heading to the warm climate for 6 months of the year, most of them 50 years or older. So sure...Floridian hospitals are packed with old, fat Quebeckers. They also pump millions of dollars into the local economy, so deal with it.

doesnt worry me. australia is prob too far a drive for them

From what I understand the National Post is to Canada what Fox News is to the United States. So you may want to take it all with a grain of salt.

I have lived in Florida. Every day, the number of cars with Canada plates in the parking lots of hospitals and medical facilities in Florida can be overwhelming. And it isn't just grandmas and grandpas getting treated for heat exhaustion or heart attacks. No, we're talking about day-to-day care, too. Go to any hospital in any state bordering Canada...Canadian plates galore. Universal medicine works, eh?

You're telling me that Canadians in dire need of free emergency medical treatment drive to florida to get it? How many thousands of miles is that?

Are they paying for US care? In which case what you should be glad that the US is making money exporting medical services, or are they exploiting US free healthcare? In which case you're insane because what care do you actually get for free in the US? Emergency care? Which you can get in canada without driving thousands of miles.

You're telling me that Canadians in dire need of free emergency medical treatment drive to florida to get it? How many thousands of miles is that?

Are they paying for US care? In which case what you should be glad that the US is making money exporting medical services, or are they exploiting US free healthcare? In which case you're insane because what care do you actually get for free in the US? Emergency care? Which you can get in canada without driving thousands of miles.

I have to agree, what Panhandlia is saying doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless he's mistaking the thousand upon thousands of Canadians who vacation in winter in Florida for sick Canadians going to Florida for strickly medical care.

Why should a nation's armed forces be offensive? Are you saying that war is a good thing?

i kind of think that being offensive is the point of armed forces, isn't it?

i kind of think that being offensive is the point of armed forces, isn't it?

Actually, I think defensive would be more appropriate.

actually, i believe it is fair for countries to deal with matters of state ahead of foreign affairs. i mean, the collective voted represetatives in to represent them, not people in other countries.

Actually, I think defensive would be more appropriate.

if all armed forces were defensive, they would also all be pointless. lets make em all defensive and then scrap them.

if all armed forces were defensive, they would also all be pointless. lets make em all defensive and then scrap them.
well, they dont call it the ministry of offence or the offence portfolio do they. in the case of japan, it is actually part of their constitution that the JSDF is there in a defence-only role

best I can come up with is:

Citizenship And North American Democracy (Alone)

Canada used to = hockey, but it would appear that's fading out.


C = Curling
A = Agricultural expanse
N = Natural Gas
A = Abused Aboriginals
D = Demented Defense Spending
A = Alcoholics

Canada used to = hockey, but it would appear that's fading out.


C = Curling
A = Agricultural expanse
N = Natural Gas
A = Abused Aboriginals
D = Demented Defense Spending
A = Alcoholics

Oh, let me try one

C=cannabis
A=awesome
N=native pride
A=alcohol is awesome
D=da best country
A=always will be the best

First off, nobody in Canada really takes the National Post seriously.

However, our government has taken the attitude that social programs such as Medicare and Welfare are more important than the military. I for one agree with that. As far as the Star Wars thing goes, well, the Americans say they're gonna do it and protect us anyways, so what was the point anyways?

Coo, I'm from Saskatoon.

Now, before the flaming begins, do yourself a favor and read this editorial (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=d0ee0f9d-2cda-491e-b603-ef6687df8318). Did you read it? No? Well, last chance (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=d0ee0f9d-2cda-491e-b603-ef6687df8318).

For some time now, Canada has played internationally the role of that kid everyone knew in school, who always portrayed an image totally out of touch with the reality everyone could see. Sure, they have a nominal set of armed forces, but they are extremely small, under-funded, and very inoffensive. And this is just one example.

The editorial board of the National Post takes its own country to task with a scathing editorial, published on February 26th, 2005. May this editorial serve as a wakeup call to our northern neighbors...it's time to either make the nation's actions in foreign policy match its rhetoric, or scale down the rhetoric and accept the fact that Canada has become France and Germany's lapdog in international affairs. Simple as that.
As usual, you again are looking for the sensational while being less than sensational yourself? :eek:

I have to laugh at this article by the right wing National Post. When I do get going on this topic, some surprising info will surface, if it hasn't already because I haven't read all the posts.