NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm interested in finding out how your basic belief about humans relates to your economic and political beliefs. The poll is overly simplistic, I know, but please try not to fence sit. Which statement do you agree with MORE, type of thing.

Along with that, depending on what you choose, if you would please explain what caused (or causes) you to think that way, it would be very helpful.

There are some big problems with the poll and the definitions of right and left and all that so:
How could this poll be worded better to be clearer and actually give an indication of how our beliefs in human nature affect what political and economic systems we want?

>_>

Just to be clear, though I know most of you are aware of this:

ECONOMIC SPECTRUM:
right, more government control
left, less government control

POLITICAL SPECTRUM:
right, more government control
left, less government control

PLEASE ONLY CHOOSE CENTRIST IF YOU REALLY CAN'T DECIDE YOU ARE MORE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER OVERALL.

>_>
Please don't choose everything...it defeats the purpose.

I'll get you and your little dog too, Teh Cameron Clan!

Just to be clear, though I know most of you are aware of this:

ECONOMIC SPECTRUM:
right, more government control
left, less government control

POLITICAL SPECTRUM:
right, more government control
left, less government control

PLEASE ONLY CHOOSE CENTRIST IF YOU REALLY CAN'T DECIDE YOU ARE MORE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER OVERALL.

I'd disagree with your definition of what left and right would be... I always thought that left-wing favoured more government control... the NHS for example, is something that doesn't exist in a right wing country in America, but it does in a left wing country like Britain, (using the American definition of left and right wing) since it favours a tax for everyone to pay for hospital treatment to those that need it, which is government controlled.

Why is being selfish bad? :(

Being overtly altruistic is good? Hah. Good luck

While I chose selfish, I far prefer the term "mutually self interested."

Why is being selfish bad? :(

Being overtly altruistic is good? Hah. Good luck
I put bad and good in brackets, because that is the other way people define human nature, as essentially evil or bad, or essentially good. I'm not making a value judgement about being selfish or not selfish.

I protest! Why is "selfish" deemed "bad"?

And I take the position Hobbes (the tiger in the comic strip, not the philosopher) put it when asked if he felt people were good or bad. He chose crazy. I tend more towards that answer than anything else.

I'd disagree with your definition of what left and right would be... I always thought that left-wing favoured more government control... the NHS for example, is something that doesn't exist in a right wing country in America, but it does in a left wing country like Britain, (using the American definition of left and right wing) since it favours a tax for everyone to pay for hospital treatment to those that need it, which is government controlled.
Granted. I'm working kind of from the political spectrum the Swimmingpool charted. I'm not using individual nation's definitions of left and right, because they vary so much.

I put bad and good in brackets, because that is the other way people define human nature, as essentially evil or bad, or essentially good. I'm not making a value judgement about being selfish or not selfish.
But you're requiring us to make an invalid value judgement about selfishness.

Granted. I'm working kind of from the political spectrum the Swimmingpool charted. I'm not using individual nation's definitions of left and right, because they vary so much.


ah well, voted on my views according to that translation... otherwise they'd be the other way round, and it'd not be correct of what I actually thought. I just wanted to make sure that I was putting down my opinion, and not the opposite one.

But you're requiring us to make an invalid value judgement about selfishness.
selfish people will kill kittens for money,
killing kittens for money is without a doubt bad,
therefore selfish people are without a doubt bad(or have the potential to be bad if placed in a situation where kittens and money are invoved).

But you're requiring us to make an invalid value judgement about selfishness.
Nope.
Do you think people are essentially bad? OR

Do you think people are essentially selfish?

I put them together to save space, and because both views require you to work from the assumption that people need to be encouraged to be good (laws and such) or that they work from a base of selfishness (which tends to mean you support capitalism over socialism). These are generalities, but I believe the way I wrote it goes together. Again, you aren't saying selfish is bad, you are saying that you work from the model that people need encouragement, or they would simply regress....or would be lazy.

ah well, voted on my views according to that translation... otherwise they'd be the other way round, and it'd not be correct of what I actually thought. I just wanted to make sure that I was putting down my opinion, and not the opposite one.
I got it. I'm right wing in terms of economics, but I would never call myself right wing.

I chose that people are "basically selfish" but with the understanding that its being "bad" is simply propaganda.

Selfishness, like everything, is only bad if it is extreme; otherwise, it is quite unavoidable, being individual consciousnesses as we are. We are all self-centred: we all have a self, a consciousness, that is centred in the world (the view from a subjective perspective). Everything we do basically feeds that consciousness, as is natural, even the things we do for, and on behalf of, others. This is A Good Thing!

People are basically good.

selfish people will kill kittens for money,
killing kittens for money is without a doubt bad,
therefore selfish people are without a doubt bad(or have the potential to be bad if placed in a situation where kittens and money are invoved).
Um, no. Cruel people will kill kittens, whether for money or not.

I chose that people are "basically selfish" but with the understanding that its being "bad" is simply propaganda.

Selfishness, like everything, is only bad if it is extreme; otherwise, it is quite unavoidable, being individual consciousnesses as we are. We are all self-centred: we all have a self, a consciousness, that is centred in the world (the view from a subjective perspective). Everything we do basically feeds that consciousness, as is natural, even the things we do for, and on behalf of, others. This is A Good Thing!

People are basically good.
I guess it comes down to what I see as the underlying philosophies that people have...usually the ones who say that people are essentially bad also say that people are selfish and need to be encouraged by rewarding that selfishness.

People who think that humans are essentially good, usually also believe that people are basically unselfish.

I chose that people are "basically selfish" but with the understanding that its being "bad" is simply propaganda.

Selfishness, like everything, is only bad if it is extreme; otherwise, it is quite unavoidable, being individual consciousnesses as we are. We are all self-centred: we all have a self, a consciousness, that is centred in the world (the view from a subjective perspective). Everything we do basically feeds that consciousness, as is natural, even the things we do for, and on behalf of, others. This is A Good Thing!

People are basically good.

I know that to be true, but to me, that detail just gets classified in with pedantics. I tend to class selfish actions as ones bringing most benefit to oneself, and selfless actions ones that bring more benefit to another. The fact that everyone is selfish at the very core doesn't really seem to be of consequence to me, because there's nothing anyone can do about it, which is why I voted for the good option.

Um, no. Cruel people will kill kittens, whether for money or not.
even the uncruel selfish will if the money is good enough.

Nope.
Do you think people are essentially bad? OR

Do you think people are essentially selfish?

I put them together to save space, and because both views require you to work from the assumption that people need to be encouraged to be good (laws and such) or that they work from a base of selfishness (which tends to mean you support capitalism over socialism). These are generalities, but I believe the way I wrote it goes together. Again, you aren't saying selfish is bad, you are saying that you work from the model that people need encouragement, or they would simply regress....or would be lazy.
People are basically industrious, they need to keep hands and minds busy and fill the hours of the day. If is only our society that encourages laziness and not trying, especially in the teenaged years before a person becomes financially and socially independent of parents.

People need rules and laws to structure their societies, but this does not reflect in any way on any "basic badness" in people, simply on how to get along with each other.

even the uncruel selfish will if the money is good enough.
Then you have a different definition than I of what constitutes cruel.

I guess it comes down to what I see as the underlying philosophies that people have...usually the ones who say that people are essentially bad also say that people are selfish and need to be encouraged by rewarding that selfishness.

People who think that humans are essentially good, usually also believe that people are basically unselfish.
Usually people are mistaken about these things. Trust me. ;-)

Good topic, though. I, for one, will keep an eye on it.

People are basically industrious, they need to keep hands and minds busy and fill the hours of the day. If is only our society that encourages laziness and not trying, especially in the teenaged years before a person becomes financially and socially independent of parents.

People need rules and laws to structure their societies, but this does not reflect in any way on any "basic badness" in people, simply on how to get along with each other.
bah, primative man in good times spent 4 to 5 hours a day working on survival and that's about what's ideal for modern man as well. sure primative man could work 12 hour a day 7 days a week in lean times but to translate that into a modern work schedule means that modern man is always in crisis mode. what's the point of all our advances if we have to work as hard as our ancestors did during famine times.

Then you have a different definition than I of what constitutes cruel.
no, i just have a clear idea of what the selfish will do under prpoer encouragement.

I think people inherently possess the tools needed to make themselves or to unmake themselves. I feel there are forces within each person that motivate him or her towards selfish and unselfish things. That's part of the reason I like The Eroica and Brahms's 3rd so much. The tragic flaw is ancient rhetoric, modern truth.

bah, primative man in good times spent 4 to 5 hours a day working on survival and that's about what's ideal for modern man as well. sure primative man could work 12 hour a day 7 days a week in lean times but to translate that into a modern work schedule means that modern man is always in crisis mode. what's the point of all our advances if we have to work as hard as our ancestors did during famine times.
I wasn't equating "keeping busy" with work hours. I keep busy at home doing chores and tending to my hobbies.

People are basically industrious, they need to keep hands and minds busy and fill the hours of the day. If is only our society that encourages laziness and not trying, especially in the teenaged years before a person becomes financially and socially independent of parents. But do they have this need because they want to better themselves, or others?

People need rules and laws to structure their societies, but this does not reflect in any way on any "basic badness" in people, simply on how to get along with each other.
Again, get over the value judgement you think is implied. I have explained why I wrote it the way I did, and I did not mean to imply a value judement. YOU are reading that into it. So you chose selfish, not bad. Yet you still fit into the category of people who think people need laws and structure to their societies. I don't. I think people are unselfish enough to do good things on their own, without being coerced.

even the uncruel selfish will if the money is good enough.
The uncruel and selfish will kill kittens if there is any sort of incentive, be it greater food or whatever.

But do they have this need because they want to better themselves, or others?
If properly done, a good balance of both activity that benefits self and activity that benefits those around us is what's healthy. When I want to play, I pull out a board game and invite some friends over. It's good for all.

Again, get over the value judgement you think is implied. I have explained why I wrote it the way I did, and I did not mean to imply a value judement. YOU are reading that into it. So you chose selfish, not bad. Yet you still fit into the category of people who think people need laws and structure to their societies. I don't. I think people are unselfish enough to do good things on their own, without being coerced.
My attitude is guided by my philosophy, my "underlying belief about people". :) (meaning, I'm not going to "get over it".)

I don't think laws are in place to force people to be "good people". Laws are in place to punish people who behave badly.

I believe that people are inately selfish.

I believe that the least amount of Gov. control that is still able to defend against or procecute the violation of rights of its citizens is optimal. I chose the bottom option as I see this as a centrist perspective.

Please don't choose everything...it defeats the purpose.

I'll get you and your little dog too, Teh Cameron Clan!

aw dan u caught me :p

My attitude is guided by my philosophy, my "underlying belief about people". :) (meaning, I'm not going to "get over it".)


...yeah, I take that back...I HATE it when people say it to me...

People are, on the average, bloody wankers.

...yeah, I take that back...I HATE it when people say it to me...
:fluffle:

Oh no! I've become a chronic fluffler...!

Nope.
Do you think people are essentially bad? OR

Do you think people are essentially selfish?

I put them together to save space, and because both views require you to work from the assumption that people need to be encouraged to be good (laws and such) or that they work from a base of selfishness (which tends to mean you support capitalism over socialism). These are generalities, but I believe the way I wrote it goes together. Again, you aren't saying selfish is bad, you are saying that you work from the model that people need encouragement, or they would simply regress....or would be lazy.

I have not read pages 2 and 3, but I could not let this pass unchallenged.
There is no moral system, with the exception of Kant's empty rationalistic system, that does not depend upon selfishness to provide motivation. Selfishness is human, how you use this is good or bad. Altruism is either plain stupidity, or disguised selfishness.
Your base assumption ,that selfish people need to bew encouraged to be good, has a huge hole. How do you encourage people to be god. The normative force, that that drives our moral actions is almost always pure selfishness.
If it is a belief that this will take you to heaven, then you are acting in your own interest.
If it is a belief that it is the best thing for the society that you are part of, then you are acting in your own interest
If it is a desire to be liked and respected, you are acting in your own interest.

There has been a prolonged campaign by religious institutions, of all stripes, to blacken the idea of selfishness. This enables these institutions to shame their followers into providing lavish and luxurious lifestyles for the leaders of these religions. Selfishness is inherent in us as animals. There is intelligent use of it and stupid use of it. Now one of these is good and one of these is bad. Guess which.

Also Left and Right.
Even following the political compass chart, those to the left economically want more state control, those to the right want less. I, as a result have not been able to vote on any of these options.

I believe in selfishness,
I believe intelligent use of this is good
I believe in minimal government interference in the market
I believe in personal autonomy in thought. (political freedom).

Place these as you wil.

Your categories are far too restrictive. I can selfishly give massive donations to charities that only help those in my locale so that I show people I know how altruistic I am.

I'm interested in finding out how your basic belief about humans relates to your economic and political beliefs. The poll is overly simplistic, I know, but please try not to fence sit. Which statement do you agree with MORE, type of thing.

Along with that, depending on what you choose, if you would please explain what caused (or causes) you to think that way, it would be very helpful.

definition of selish or bad OR good or unselfish listed above.[/COLOR][/B]

i may be a somewhat odd in that i believe human nature changes according to environment and time - it is malleable. a peasant farmer is not going to behave the same way as a big-shot lawyer in New York, for example. their motivations, the way they relate to the world is different - they will have a different human nature. here i am referring to human nature as the way they behave, act, think, their drives and motivations - minus physiological necessities (food, water, shelter, procreation). this is my 'basic belief about humans'. at the moment, we are generally self-centred, egotistic, selfish and 'bad' - like Rousseau says, corrupted by our particular version of society. this need not be the way we are, however, as if human nature is malleable then we can one day become 'good'

i am both economically and politically left. the idea of the malleability of human nature is a central socialist concept, fyi.

Well the good/bad outweighed any consideration of selfishness/selflessness for me. I firmly believe that most people (all except the extemely rare true sociopath) want to believe that they are "good", and that the things they do are the "right" things. Far too many people back themselves into ethical corners by refusing to recognize that some of the things they have done are "wrong", it would be better to accept that sometimes one does something "wrong" but it does not necessarily make one bad. This results occassionally in some incredible rationalizations, but even Adolph Hitler thought what he was doing was "right" and that he was a "good" person for doing it.

Also Left and Right.
Even following the political compass chart, those to the left economically want more state control, those to the right want less. I, as a result have not been able to vote on any of these options.

I believe in selfishness,
I believe intelligent use of this is good
I believe in minimal government interference in the market
I believe in personal autonomy in thought. (political freedom).

Place these as you wil.
Yeah...as I posted the poll I figured I might have screwed that up...perhaps I'll rerun one later...it's good to get feedback because I really am interested in this...perhaps selfishness should come out? My take on it was kind of not, "are you totally selfish or totally not," but rather, "Are you more one way or the other".

Yes, I got the politics reversed. Damn it!
Hmmmm...the economics too?
I'm confused again...

How could this poll be worded better to be clearer and actually give an indication of how our beliefs in human nature affect what political and economic systems we want?

people aren't nesicarily selfish or unselfish, just have instincts to survive.
i'm politically right wing and economically left wing.

People are neither "good" nor "bad." I've learned that all of us ... each one of us ... is simply trying to live as best we know how.

How could this poll be worded better to be clearer and actually give an indication of how our beliefs in human nature affect what political and economic systems we want?

OK. Let's try to construct a meaningful poll
Either it has to be a combinatory poll, which with just 10 options is a little difficult or it has to be public, allowing combinations to be worked out by anyone who cares to do so.

What do we want to know about.
Human nature, the basis of this. Hum? What is more important to you? Yourself, Society? type question

I believe my needs come above society's needs.
I beleive society's needs come above my needs.

These might work.

Politics/economics

Avoid left and right as these are loaded terms.

I prefer to pay higher taxes and receive quality services
I prefer to pay lower taxes and pay may own way.

I believe that the economy should be market driven
I believe that the economy should be managed.

These do?

Now you have three sets of pairs. Each of which could have a "No opinion/No preference" option.

Any further comments/suggestions?

I believe that people are naturally selfish, but I don't think it is a bad thing.

I am economically centrist, and politically left.

*snip*
I like it...as long as people accept that we're talking about ideally...especially in terms of taxes and quality services:)

Any further thoughts before I make such a poll?

You missed out the option to say that humans are born neutral and become good/bad through their life experiences and upbringing. I still think they are naturally selfish, but the option should still be there.

Politics/economics

Avoid left and right as these are loaded terms.

I prefer to pay higher taxes and receive quality services
I prefer to pay lower taxes and pay may own way.

Any further comments/suggestions?
Loaded here, consider instead:

I believe that government is responsible for services (healthcare and such).
I believe the individual is responsible for services (healthcare and such).


I think the selfish/selfless distinction as to the nature of individuals is a fine one. It could be tweeaked I guess, but doen't need it. I rather like the good/bad dichotomy - most here seem to reject it, but I like it even though it is probably not needed for the analysis intended by the poll.

You missed out the option to say that humans are born neutral and become good/bad through their life experiences and upbringing. I still think they are naturally selfish, but the option should still be there.
I haven't heard many people argue that...it's usually been bad from birth or good from birth...

What do others think? Should that be included?...although I think we're steering away from the good/bad dichotomy.

I haven't heard many people argue that...it's usually been bad from birth or good from birth...

What do others think? Should that be included?...although I think we're steering away from the good/bad dichotomy.
Whatever the process by which we become "good" or "bad" (or think of ourselves and others as such), that shouldn't impact on the question of "Are we basically good/bad"... unless one is equating the basic state with the starting (infant) state. I certainly don't.

Who I was as an infant has nothing to do with who I am today, or who I will grow into tomorrow. "Good" and "bad" in this context are spiritual values, and our spiritual growth is not linked in parallel to our physical growth.

I've always believed that most people are inherently good, though not all. I am just a naturally idealistic person, i don't even know how that developed, it's just always been who i am. I am a liberal socialist, i believe in very little government intervention in our personal lives, i believe strongly in social freedoms, and i believe in more government intervention in economics. I believe in social programs, such as welfare, universal healthcare, etc. I voted that i am economically and politically left, because i have always thought that leftists believed in little government intervention socially, and lots of government intervention economically. If i got that wrong, sorry.