NationStates Jolt Archive

In America we have all heard about the freedom set up by the founding fathers in the Bill of Rights. We are taught from day one that these made America the greatest nation on the planet, and that they were the centerpiece of the American way of life.

But, when America broke away from England and in a sense, the European thought of the time, the inherent rights of the individual was not a new idea, and was not a difficult line of thought to follow and adapt to.

The real change that triggered the American "way of life", for lack of a better phrase, is the freedom from authority and tradition. From the dawn of Christianity in Europe to the to the end of Imperialism, government had a tradition of always been "justified" by absolute truths. Religion, and specifically Christianity had always granted validity to the government and its actions. With our freedom from tradition, America was left in a spiritual problem of sorts, as the government would have no authority without the tradition and authority granted by religion.

This vacuum of authority was addressed by looking back, before the explosion of Christianity onto Europe, to the classical Roman thought that the authority of government was simply in the founding of the government, rather than the head of the government, or any higher divinity. This allowed for the American government to be a government of the people, with a minimal separation between the government and the citizenry. This minimal separation was leverage that the people of the United States have used to protect their rights and to even fight for new ones.

Now after that lengthy explanation, let me get to the topic of this post. I think that this most recent surge of puritan/evangelical is a last gasp for those who believe in the authority of tradition in this nation. They have always had a firm but eroding grip on the society of this nation, whether it be through the use of Christianity as propaganda during the Second World War, or the morality and communist purges of the Cold War.

However, we have seen the rise of a full generation that has grown up in relative security and has known nothing but the ability to self-govern without the fear of outside threat. With this upbringing, this generation no longer sees the US government as being authoritarian in nature, and as truly a government of the people, and in turn completely eschewed the authority of tradition. No longer did government need to be justified, as it was justified through the people.

With this newfound freedom from authoritarian tradition and the pervasiveness of secularism in Europe, evangelicals have found themselves in a desperate position. As the Cold War died their grip had become extremely tenuous, and they were in a position, prior to 9/11, of losing their grip, altogether.

With the advent of 9/11, however, the threat of outside force has once again pervaded America. It appears that both members of the government, and evangelicals have once again teamed forces and latched on to this thread to establish an authority of tradition again. It is my hope that it is their "Battle of the Bulge", in that it is just an opportunistic desperation effort.

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Now, I understand that this is a long rambling post, and portrays my wandering thought process, but if you made it this far, I would love to see some comments or some discussion on this.

Now after that lengthy explanation, let me get to the topic of this post. I think that this most recent surge of puritan/evangelical is a last gasp for those who believe in the authority of tradition in this nation. They have always had a firm but eroding grip on the society of this nation, whether it be through the use of Christianity as propaganda during the Second World War, or the morality and communist purges of the Cold War.

However, we have seen the rise of a full generation that has grown up in relative security and has known nothing but the ability to self-govern without the fear of outside threat. With this upbringing, this generation no longer sees the US government as being authoritarian in nature, and as truly a government of the people, and in turn completely eschewed the authority of tradition. No longer did government need to be justified, as it was justified through the people.

With this newfound freedom from authoritarian tradition and the pervasiveness of secularism in Europe, evangelicals have found themselves in a desperate position. As the Cold War died their grip had become extremely tenuous, and they were in a position, prior to 9/11, of losing their grip, altogether.

With the advent of 9/11, however, the threat of outside force has once again pervaded America. It appears that both members of the government, and evangelicals have once again teamed forces and latched on to this thread to establish an authority of tradition again. It is my hope that it is their "Battle of the Bulge", in that it is just an opportunistic desperation effort.


I'm not sure it's a last gasp or a Battle of the Bulge for Christianity or Evangelicals. And I'm not sure I buy into the idea that Christians seem interested in power over the nation. But overall, it's a good read. It makes me critically look at the direction of governments in the western world, and how a generation, in my opinion, often lacking of moral fiber will affect that direction.

Good post, and an intersting thing to think about.

I'm not sure it's a last gasp or a Battle of the Bulge for Christianity or Evangelicals. And I'm not sure I buy into the idea that Christians seem interested in power over the nation. But overall, it's a good read. It makes me critically look at the direction of governments in the western world, and how a generation, in my opinion, often lacking of moral fiber will affect that direction.

Good post, and an intersting thing to think about.

I didn't mean to imply that Christians themselves want power over the country, they moreover want God to be in power over the country. There are authoritarian political groups who do want to have power over the country, and they are exploiting the evangelicals wants for their own plans.

They seem to want to hand over responsibility to do God's will from God Himself over to the government.

I figured this was close enough to a religious debate to get some response. :confused:

They seem to want to hand over responsibility to do God's will from God Himself over to the government.

That is exactly what they want. That is the nature of traditional authority, that the government needs a divine justification to rule.

Many religious people do not trust societies ability to self govern and so they rebel against the new authority of government through the people.

You've brought up one of the great inconsistancies of mainstream religion that has led to my agnostic beliefs.

How can a government have a devine authority when most religions preach the concept of free will? Doesn't one preclude the other? If God gives us free will how can he dictate, advocate or even justify a government?

monarchies claim their 'divine' right to rule straight from God, many European countries still have the descendants of these usurpers of power as their heads of state.

Why is it so difficult for Europeans to understand that hereditary titles are WORTHLESS, and that monarchies are remnants of a period where a few families usurped all power and simply declared their hold on power perpetual so that others couldn't advance to those positions?

US evangelicals want no power whatsoever. Quite the opposite, it is the socalled liberals who want to ram secularism down everybody's throats. And some socialism/communism to go along with that. They want the US to subject itself to tinpot dictatorships and soon to be bankrupted welfare states in Europe via the United Nations. That will never happen, we will never allow the corrupt moneygrabbing UN to rule over the US, to have jurisdiction over us. We weren't fooled by the Kyoto bullshit and we will never be fooled.

*snip*

Not only are you, for the most part, wrong, but you were completely off topic with the exception of the first sentence.

You've brought up one of the great inconsistancies of mainstream religion that has led to my agnostic beliefs.

How can a government have a devine authority when most religions preach the concept of free will? Doesn't one preclude the other? If God gives us free will how can he dictate, advocate or even justify a government?

That's a good point, God would simply not care how one's government was run.

Another point: With all monotheistic religions there is a strong value of authority. It goes to the point where there really isn't even an hierarchy, just the supreme ruler and the people. So it would seem that people who are followers of a monotheistic religion would be much more willing to live under and authoritarian government.

radical Christians: "Out with the Constitution, in with the Bible."

That simple.

This is definently a good read, and definently about a very interesting topic.

I do beleive that this "battle of the bulge" is not exactly what it appears to be by the evangelicals. What I beleive is that just like the uniting of a country after september 11th followed by a dis uniting by a nation that found its differences once again, the evangelicals have found an opportunity to make their cause more apparent in the United States. So basically I am trying to say that this upsurge is just a moment in time, a fad if you will, and that just like the damn reality TV shows (which i think are going away finally), it will pass.

Dont get me wrong i think evangelism and hardcore christianity will remain forever.

Oh and one more thing, I could be wrong here, but if i remember correctly the founding fathers never put into the constitution or the bill of rights that there must be a "seperation of church and state" but to me i think they strongly hinted at that, and all of our government and supreme court have always perceived the constitution as that. Which to me makes it very important who gets into the supreme court (just a side note).

radical Christians: "Out with the Constitution, in with the Bible."

That simple.

Radical Secularists: "Out with the guns, in with the welfare"

You're wrong. You're entirely wrong. No one wants to give complete authority of the government over to God. You don't understand at all. Christians, too, believe that everyone is equal, and believe in democracy, they just believe in going about it in a different way. True, back in the day, leaders used religion to justify EVERYTHING they did. Not true today.

Good post, though, well thought-out.

Radical Secularists: "Out with the guns, in with the welfare"
Bloody idiot. Not all of us secularists are gun-robbing, tax-maniac socialists.

What do guns or welfare have to do with religion? Do you even know what "Secularist" means? Or is it just a synonym for "lefty" to you?

Bloody idiot. Not all of us secularists are gun-robbing, tax-maniac socialists.

What do guns or welfare have to do with religion? Do you even know what "Secularist" means? Or is it just a synonym for "lefty" to you?

To me it's somewhat synonomous with Lefty. I'm sorry, what I should have said was: OMG TEH BIBLE IS TEH EVAL CAUSE IT HAS AUTHORITY AND TEH ATHOURITAH IS EVAL!!!!1!!

This is definently a good read, and definently about a very interesting topic.

I do beleive that this "battle of the bulge" is not exactly what it appears to be by the evangelicals. What I beleive is that just like the uniting of a country after september 11th followed by a dis uniting by a nation that found its differences once again, the evangelicals have found an opportunity to make their cause more apparent in the United States. So basically I am trying to say that this upsurge is just a moment in time, a fad if you will, and that just like the damn reality TV shows (which i think are going away finally), it will pass.

It does seem like it could be a fad, due to the recent influx of nationalism and patriotism. But it certainly seems that this is definitely a very organized and coordinated movement, at least behind the scenes.

Dont get me wrong i think evangelism and hardcore christianity will remain forever.

In 2000 44% of the population of the US claimed to be "born again" or "evangelical" Christians. That is an absurdly large percentage. While I do not wish for christians to be oppressed, it is this 44% that worries me.

Oh and one more thing, I could be wrong here, but if i remember correctly the founding fathers never put into the constitution or the bill of rights that there must be a "seperation of church and state" but to me i think they strongly hinted at that, and all of our government and supreme court have always perceived the constitution as that. Which to me makes it very important who gets into the supreme court (just a side note).

I agree with you, I think that the founding fathers did intend to keep religion and government separate, and I do think that irresponsible judges may misinterpret them on purpose.

Radical Secularists: "Out with the guns, in with the welfare"

You're wrong. You're entirely wrong. No one wants to give complete authority of the government over to God. You don't understand at all. Christians, too, believe that everyone is equal, and believe in democracy, they just believe in going about it in a different way. True, back in the day, leaders used religion to justify EVERYTHING they did. Not true today.

Good post, though, well thought-out.

Secularists have nothing to do with political affiliation or leanings. Saddam Hussein is the head of a secular government, but he in not a leftist.

I do believe that many Christians do want our government to be responsible to God, our president has hinted at the government being responsible to God.

But there are a great deal of Christians who do want this to remain a secular government, but what I want to know is what this different way of going about democracy is.

To me it's somewhat synonomous with Lefty.
Ah, I see your brain is hard-wired for simplistic partisanship.

But there are a great deal of Christians who do want this to remain a secular government, but what I want to know is what this different way of going about democracy is.

You get something like Turkey, methinks; a theocratic democracy, so to speak, where lawmaking is primarily based on religion and more social authority is vested in the clergy than in the government itself, and every move said government makes has to be approved by the clergy.

Frighteningly enough, this is already occuring.

You're wrong. You're entirely wrong. No one wants to give complete authority of the government over to God. You don't understand at all. Christians, too, believe that everyone is equal, and believe in democracy, they just believe in going about it in a different way. True, back in the day, leaders used religion to justify EVERYTHING they did. Not true today.

Is that so? I certainly can't see that. It seems to me that fundies are going out of their way to attack the rights of people who do not follow their religion under guise of morality.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with beleiving that what your mythology (I really don't mean this as an insult, its a technical term.) says to. I do however have a probelm with telling other people how to live their lives according to said mythology. The dogmatic teaching of intollerance, overzealous conversion attempts, and general waving of religion in the faces of the less, or even not religious, is annoying and wrong.