NationStates Jolt Archive


Outside confirmation of school problems

Robbopolis
28-02-2005, 20:10
High Schools Are 1.0 in a 5.0 World, Gates Says
By Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Addressing the nation's governors, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates (news - web sites) delivered a scathing critique of U.S. high schools Saturday, calling them obsolete and saying that elected officials should be ashamed of a system that leaves millions of students unprepared for college and for technical jobs.

Gates was speaking as the invited guest of some of the nation's most powerful elected officials, at a National Governors Assn. meeting devoted to improving high school education across the country.

"Training the workforce of tomorrow with today's high schools is like trying to teach kids about today's computers on a 50-year-old mainframe," said Gates, whose $27-billion Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (news - web sites) has made education one of its priorities.

"Everyone who understands the importance of education, everyone who believes in equal opportunity, everyone who has been elected to uphold the obligations of public office should be ashamed that we are breaking our promises of a free education for millions of students," added Gates, to strong applause.

Virginia Gov. Mark R. Warner, chairman of the nonpartisan association, said high school education was in need of an overhaul to raise standards and to closely align instruction with the requirements of colleges and employers.

"It is imperative that we make reform of the American high school a national priority," Warner, a Democrat, said.

The governors' winter meeting coincides with a push by President Bush (news - web sites) to extend elements of his No Child Left Behind initiative from the primary grades to the high school level.

The governors painted a dire picture of the state of public high schools, releasing statistics that, according to the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, showed 68% of ninth-graders graduate from high school on time.

But, measuring a different way, U.S. government statistics show steady increases in high school graduation rates, particularly among whites and African Americans, although less so for Latinos.

For example, the high school graduation rate for adults 25 years or older was at an all-time high of 85% in 2003, as was the 27% share of adults holding at least a bachelor's degree.

Behind the national numbers, there is general agreement that wide disparities exist among high schools and that geography, income, race and ethnicity affect the value of a diploma.

"Only a fraction of our kids are getting the best education," Gates said. "Once we realize that we are keeping low-income and minority kids out of the rigorous courses, there can only be two arguments for keeping it that way: Either we think they can't learn, or we think they're not worth teaching.

"The first argument would be factually wrong. The second would be morally wrong."

Gates said his foundation had contributed about $1 billion to improve the quality of U.S. education and was supporting reforms at more than 1,500 high schools.

His involvement began with a college scholarship program for minority students. But then he and his wife realized many of the students they were sponsoring did not have the academic skills to survive in college.

"The more we looked at the data, the more we came to see that there is more than one barrier to college," Gates said. "There's the barrier of not being able to pay for college, but there's the barrier of not being prepared for college."

Gates called for a new design for American high schools, based on smaller schools with higher standards for math and language proficiency, instruction that is relevant to students' goals in life and better support from teachers and counselors.

He also called for a get-tough approach toward schools that fail.

"When the students don't learn, the school must change," Gates said. "Every state needs a strong intervention strategy to improve struggling schools."

"This needs to include special teams of experts who are given the power and resources to turn things around," he said.

When business leaders like him start saying that our schools have problems, I would hope that people start to listen.
Kahta
28-02-2005, 20:25
Our schools do not have problems the way he thinks we do. Business leaders want a surplus of people of every education, because it keeps wages down.
I_Hate_Cows
28-02-2005, 20:31
Our schools do not have problems the way he thinks we do. Business leaders want a surplus of people of every education, because it keeps wages down.
This coming from some one who has stated he is going to be handed a job?

Yeah, I would thank you not to comment


The school system are in dire need of a fixing up so they don't suck. You need to actually be taught pertinent infrmation, not useless drivel. I'd sadly say one of the most useful classes in a school is shop.
Alien Born
28-02-2005, 20:58
Read the text through and spot the contradictions and hyperbole. It's a fun game.

1. Combine "Bill Gates (news - web sites) delivered a scathing critique of U.S. high schools Saturday, calling them obsolete" with "at a National Governors Assn. meeting devoted to improving high school education across the country."

Now I don't know about you, but if I were to be speaking to a group of peole devoted to improving somewthing, I am not going to say "They're fine, no problem". Therby caling everyone there stupid. No. I'll call them obsolete. A nice safe general term that one.

2. "The governors' winter meeting coincides with a push by President Bush (news - web sites) to extend elements of his No Child Left Behind initiative from the primary grades to the high school level."

So, no political motive there then.

3. ""Only a fraction of our kids are getting the best education," Gates said."

Yes, that is kind of logically necessary. The best can not be all. It is only a small fraction of all. In anything at any time. If he meant to say that all the education system was not equal, then that too would be logically and necessarily true. What is his point here?

4. "Gates said his foundation had contributed about $1 billion to improve the quality of U.S. education "

So the problem is not money then, or did that money only go to the fraction that he had just complained about?

5. "He also called for a get-tough approach toward schools that fail."

No criteria for this, what is a school that fails. I thought kids failed (over simplistic I know). Get tough means what?


Look. the education system is not perfect anywhere. If Gates wants schools to provide his company with employees, then set up some schools to do this Bill. He, by the fact that he has made a large amount of money, by whatever means this was done, is not wqualified to discuss the education system any more than anyone else. Probably less so if you look at his educational record.

It is not that there is no problem ,but what the %#@k does it have to do with Bill Gates.
Kahta
28-02-2005, 21:23
This coming from some one who has stated he is going to be handed a job?

Yeah, I would thank you not to comment


The school system are in dire need of a fixing up so they don't suck. You need to actually be taught pertinent infrmation, not useless drivel. I'd sadly say one of the most useful classes in a school is shop.

I won't be handed a job, but I will get one that pays better than your job. I'm going to get an MBA with a concentration in management. Also, I don't know when I said that, but its being taken out of context.

The school systems are fine, only the top 1/3 of students, IQ-wise should be going to a 4 year college and then 1/3 of those going on past that. The middle 1/3 should be going to a 2 year college or getting a technical education, and the bottom 1/3 should work in a job that needs no further education, such as farming, manufacturing, or in the service industry.
I_Hate_Cows
28-02-2005, 21:36
I won't be handed a job, but I will get one that pays better than your job. I'm going to get an MBA with a concentration in management. Also, I don't know when I said that, but its being taken out of context.

The school systems are fine, only the top 1/3 of students, IQ-wise should be going to a 4 year college and then 1/3 of those going on past that. The middle 1/3 should be going to a 2 year college or getting a technical education, and the bottom 1/3 should work in a job that needs no further education, such as farming, manufacturing, or in the service industry.
I would technically agree with that IF I didn't know you. And seeing as how I do, I must by principle disagree.

PS: and to boot, with your "opinions" and attitude, I would'nt believe you would even make janitor
Silly Sharks
28-02-2005, 21:36
4. "Gates said his foundation had contributed about $1 billion to improve the quality of U.S. education "


Actually, you'd be surprised when it comes to schools. The school I go to costs about £3million a year, which is normal.
Kahta
28-02-2005, 21:47
Actually, you'd be surprised when it comes to schools. The school I go to costs about £3million a year, which is normal.

No, your school has a budget of £3million a year, not a per person cost of £3million a year.
Kahta
28-02-2005, 21:54
I would technically agree with that IF I didn't know you. And seeing as how I do, I must by principle disagree.

PS: and to boot, with your "opinions" and attitude, I would'nt believe you would even make janitor

Wow, thats mature. You don't like me, so you refuse to agree with me. Therefore, since Jews don't control the world, you must think they do.

No, I've had a summer job for 2 years, and I was pretty much a janitor. It was easy, but boring work. The people I worked with were: one ex-computer programmer, laid off 3 times, by 3 places in the last year, one brazillian immigrant, one navy (vietnam era, but not in 'nam)veteran, one vietnam(army) veteran, one guy that worked for 25 years at a local paper mill before it was sent to Vietnam, and the last one had a business degree and had been laid off in 2001. They worked their asses of, like I did every day, and every day they told me "[my name], don't end up like me in a shitty job like this, you're too smart for it."
I_Hate_Cows
28-02-2005, 21:58
Wow, thats mature. You don't like me, so you refuse to agree with me. Therefore, since Jews don't control the world, you must think they do.

No, I've had a summer job for 2 years, and I was pretty much a janitor. It was easy, but boring work. The people I worked with were: one ex-computer programmer, laid off 3 times, by 3 places in the last year, one brazillian immigrant, one navy (vietnam era, but not in 'nam)veteran, one vietnam(army) veteran, one guy that worked for 25 years at a local paper mill before it was sent to Vietnam, and the last one had a business degree and had been laid off in 2001. They worked their asses of, like I did every day, and every day they told me "[my name], don't end up like me in a shitty job like this, you're too smart for it."
For the programmer crap, by the way their job works they bounce from job to job working on different projects, and each time the salary goes up sicne they get more experience - straight from my programming teacher who is only teaching a low level class as a break, and the other people in the class who have worked as programmers.

The janitor may be a rocket scientist, but he's still a janitor. Intelligence doesn't equate to having a superior job. And I don't disagree with you because I don't like you, I disagree with you because I know how you meant that statement, and I don't agree with the principle of it. And you try to pick on me for lack of maturity is hypocritical at best.
Kahta
28-02-2005, 22:07
For the programmer crap, by the way their job works they bounce from job to job working on different projects, and each time the salary goes up sicne they get more experience - straight from my programming teacher who is only teaching a low level class as a break, and the other people in the class who have worked as programmers.

The janitor may be a rocket scientist, but he's still a janitor. Intelligence doesn't equate to having a superior job. And I don't disagree with you because I don't like you, I disagree with you because I know how you meant that statement, and I don't agree with the principle of it. And you try to pick on me for lack of maturity is hypocritical at best.

Not when you go from the same position in 3 companies, no, he wasn't that kind of programmer. He was the head of systems something. I think network systems something, all the companies sent the jobs to india.

Intelligence equates with a job 75% of the time, and thats good enough for me. If stupid people didn't take the jobs smart people would have, the stupid people would have to take the bad jobs.
I_Hate_Cows
28-02-2005, 22:11
Not when you go from the same position in 3 companies, no, he wasn't that kind of programmer. He was the head of systems something. I think network systems something, all the companies sent the jobs to india.

Intelligence equates with a job 75% of the time, and thats good enough for me. If stupid people didn't take the jobs smart people would have, the stupid people would have to take the bad jobs.
1) I think you need to look into what you are saying a bit more. How they would outsource a job that requires people to actually be present on hand to India is beyond me

2) if an intelligent person can't get a job because a stupid person took it, that backs up what I'm saying, not what you are
Silly Sharks
28-02-2005, 22:25
No, your school has a budget of £3million a year, not a per person cost of £3million a year.
That's what I meant.
Who says I didn't?
Kahta
01-03-2005, 00:18
1) I think you need to look into what you are saying a bit more. How they would outsource a job that requires people to actually be present on hand to India is beyond me

2) if an intelligent person can't get a job because a stupid person took it, that backs up what I'm saying, not what you are


1. They outsourced the WHOLE operation, imangine the office being picked up and carried to India, but the employees being left behind.

2. Which is why I think we should get jobs and educations based on IQ (what I said earlier)
Haloman
01-03-2005, 00:22
When business leaders like him start saying that our schools have problems, I would hope that people start to listen.

And you're right, we should take the word of business leaders who con their way into billions and are as close to being the devil as you can get...
Trammwerk
01-03-2005, 01:05
I'm curious.

What do you folks think should be done to improve education in the United States, or abroad for internationals [damn swedes will just say everything is hunky dorey]?

Some vague problems and solutions are suggested in this article, but nothing at all specific. It's the sort of political thing that governors WOULD attend: "We have to improve education! Everyone is free and equal! Think of the children!" *politicians clap*

Yeah. Like they'll do shit.

What about you folks?
Dakini
01-03-2005, 01:34
2. Which is why I think we should get jobs and educations based on IQ (what I said earlier)
IQ is not a test of compotence. Many extremely intelligent people are unable to funciton in society, giving someone a good job because they have a high iq is simply retarded. Not only that, it's not even considered the best measure of intelligence.