NationStates Jolt Archive

So I recently heard this issue come up again and was wondering wut you people think?

Is spanking proper disipline for children... or should we be doing everything in our power to disiplin kids by any other means other then physical violence...

I for one not only belive it is proper but nessessary. As a child I was spanked, and grew up as an upstanding citzen with respect for authority and the people around me. I think this is something that can scarely be said about the young adults today and even worse the children of today...

In high school my "health" teacher tried to push to the kids (us) that spanking was wrong, and it would work to your detreme.. when those children expressed how they were spanked and that they turned out better then fine she defined us as the (lucky ones). I dont think this is accurate at all.. If you use spanking in a proper fashion (not hitting out of anger or rage) hitting then becomes a far more effective tool then say a "time out".

Most parents methods today is to restrict children to their rooms (where there are more toys then outside the room).

I remember when my parents tried this restricting me to my room and giving me a time out.. Not only did it not work, but at the end of my punishment I felt like I won, as I made the best of my punishment and looked for ways to have fun while in punishment. But after being spanked you better belive I didn't feel like a winner.

Kids today have grown up with little respect for authority figures, are more rebelious, and claim rights that technically do not apply to them. I attribute a lack of proper parenting/punishment to the state at which children today lack any form of respect.. and engage in more bad behavior then ever... having sex young.. increased drug use .. etc.

Not only do most parents not spank, many have the audacity to encroach themselves on parents who do. I have a friend i work with who was apporached by a woman after spanking her kid for being bad at the supermarket.. This stragener had the unbelivable nerve to say she should call the police for child abuse when the mother was simply disiplining her child for trying to break an item in the store.

It is this time of behavior which has striped schools of all their "meaningful" power to disiciplin students to the point at which students act out in outragous manners, and teachers are unable to defend themselves for fear of lawsuit.

When parents start properly discipling children again, is when you will see our society take a turn in the right direction for a change.

Learn how to spell "definitely"

The people who voted "definitely" either don't have children or have some misguided views on how to raise children.

So I recently heard this issue come up again and was wondering wut you people think?

Is spanking proper disipline for children... or should we be doing everything in our power to disiplin kids by any other means other then physical violence...

I for one not only belive it is proper but nessessary. As a child I was spanked, and grew up as an upstanding citzen with respect for authority and the people around me. I think this is something that can scarely be said about the young adults today and even worse the children of today...

In high school my "health" teacher tried to push to the kids (us) that spanking was wrong, and it would work to your detreme.. when those children expressed how they were spanked and that they turned out better then fine she defined us as the (lucky ones). I dont think this is accurate at all.. If you use spanking in a proper fashion (not hitting out of anger or rage) hitting then becomes a far more effective tool then say a "time out".

Most parents methods today is to restrict children to their rooms (where there are more toys then outside the room).

I remember when my parents tried this restricting me to my room and giving me a time out.. Not only did it not work, but at the end of my punishment I felt like I won, as I made the best of my punishment and looked for ways to have fun while in punishment. But after being spanked you better belive I didn't feel like a winner.

Kids today have grown up with little respect for authority figures, are more rebelious, and claim rights that technically do not apply to them. I attribute a lack of proper parenting/punishment to the state at which children today lack any form of respect.. and engage in more bad behavior then ever... having sex young.. increased drug use .. etc.

Not only do most parents not spank, many have the audacity to encroach themselves on parents who do. I have a friend i work with who was apporached by a woman after spanking her kid for being bad at the supermarket.. This stragener had the unbelivable nerve to say she should call the police for child abuse when the mother was simply disiplining her child for trying to break an item in the store.

It is this time of behavior which has striped schools of all their "meaningful" power to disiciplin students to the point at which students act out in outragous manners, and teachers are unable to defend themselves for fear of lawsuit.

When parents start properly discipling children again, is when you will see our society take a turn in the right direction for a change.
How to decide when discipline is appropriate, and what sort of discipline is best? There are times when instruction and patience will not be sufficient to change a child's behavior.

Rule number one: tailor the discipline to fit both the child and the offense.

Rule number two: always deliver what you have promised.

Rule number three: strive to be consistent in both the degree and frequency of discipline.

Rule number four: corporal punishment should be reserved for cases where the child's or someone else's saftey is at risk, or when valuable property is repeatedly threatened with destruction.

There are those who will take issue with these rules, especially rule number 4. However, research indicates that much corporal punishment is more the result of parental frustration than corrective of any long term behavior on the child's part.

You have to differentiate between spanking often, or spanking for specific reasons (seldom).

Your first question before you spank should be, "What am I trying to accomplish?"

If you are spanking because the child has disobeyed you, you are spanking for revenge. If you are spanking because the child has disobeyed you AND put him or herself, or someone else in danger, you are spanking to make a dangerous situation memorable and unpleasant. An example would be finding your child lighting a chair on fire, or running out into traffic.

If your kid has just back-talked you, or deliberately broken something, spanking does not deal with the why of their action. It does not teach them to not do it again. It teaches them that when they do something wrong, they will get smacked. Too many kids take this and do it to their siblings...you took my toy, so I'm going to hit you.

There are more effective methods of disciplining your child. Spanking should be a last resort, and saved for extreme occasions. Otherwise, you lose the effectiveness of it (how many of us got 'used' to being swatted with a wooden spoon? I remember my mom getting so upset that I wasn't crying or apologising when she spanked me that she ended up breaking the spoon over my backside. She never hit me again, realising it wasn't a deterrence anymore)

It should not be, "NEVER HIT OR ELSE", but it should be, only spank when the situation warrants it, and it is an appropriate response. If you have really good parenting skills, you can avoid ever spanking without spoiling your child. The old maxim, spare the rod and spoil the child? If I wanted obedience, I'd get a dog. I want responsible kids, and you teach responsibility through actions, not punishment.

Learn how to spell "definitely"
How about a response? Everyone makes spelling mistakes. Learn to come up with a better name. Now there is a better flame.

Anyway, yes children should be spanked. Although there has to be care taken at how and when you do it. It can be a valuable tool in raising a child. But of course it needs to be used seldom. Once your child knows that you will do it. Then just the thought of being spanked will stop your child from doing alot of things bad.

i think that hitting a child is a senseless and horrid thing to do! i feel strongly that everyone is perfectly capable to disipline children without involving any physical harm. i mean, as long as u treat them well yet don't allow any boundry-crossing, they will eventually learn not to. like, a strict yet loving relationship.

No, unless the child physically assaults someone first, and even then, it can be iffy.

Striking humans, or animals for that matter, results in secondary problems.

You hit a horse, they become flinchy and hard to control or so much as pet. Hit a dog, they become either frustated and liable to bite, or frightened enough to start urinating all over the place. You hit a cat, the cat moves on.

You hit a kid, and they can end up extremely screwed up, and with a warped sense of why things are good or bad.

Both from my experience and from the various psychology texts I've seen, the way to do things is to teach the child empathy. Make them understand how much they're harming others. Teach them to care.

If all you do is teach them might makes right, -you- are the one in need of being smacked around, for adding to the chances of that child growing up to be a horrible, or screwed up person.

Now that being said, I grew up in a family with four younger brothers who all ended up MUCH bigger than me (I'm 5 feet even, they're all over 6'4"...go figure). My mom used to spank us before she decided it didn't work. However, I grew up slapping, hitting and bullying my brothers...and defending myself from them too. I tend to be a person who hits others (jokingly, lightly, but still) quite often, and sometimes it takes people off guard. I've really had to watch myself so I don't slap my kids (on the arm or whatever) for little things, and I've been trying to stop hitting others too (like I said, it's lightly, like when someone makes a joke...ah whatever, I won't defend it). Some days I don't do so well, and I find that I've reacted immediately to something by smacking my daughter's hand. I always feel terrible, I make a big deal about it and apologise and say, "Bad mommy, not nice!" I'm not teaching her anything, and when I see her slap her sister, I'm afraid she is imitating me. Now, before I react, I count...it sounds cheesy, but it works. By the time I get to 3, I'm able to deal with the situation in a different way.

I think the majority of the time, we spank, or hit without thought. If we actually waited a bit, cooled down a tad, we simply wouldn't do it. Can you see yourself even five minutes after the event going and spanking your child for what they've done? Spankings generally occur in the few instants after something happens. Do you really want to just give into impulse like that? Is that something you want to teach your kids?

The people who voted "definitely" either don't have children or have some misguided views on how to raise children.

I disagree.. It is this reaction which has led to children with less and less respect for authority figures...

Through out my time in school, i simply saw each grade after me degrade in their social manners... which most of the faculty agreed with.

Today we have higher rates of drug use in young kids, WAY higher rates of child sexual activity, and the lack of respect that runs rampent through children is undeniable.

Im not attributing all of this to improper punishment techniques, obviously i know the media has much to do with it. However, given the enviornment, it is not helpful to attack the very techinques which fight heavy influencers like the media while the alternative has such a bad track record. Perhaps in the right circumstances.. techniques like time out would have its place... but in today society, there are many circumstances in which corpral punishment is the most effective, and anything less is a signal to the child that they have the power in the relationship toward authority figures

No, unless the child physically assaults someone first, and even then, it can be iffy.

Striking humans, or animals for that matter, results in secondary problems.

You hit a horse, they become flinchy and hard to control or so much as pet. Hit a dog, they become either frustated and liable to bite, or frightened enough to start urinating all over the place. You hit a cat, the cat moves on.

You hit a kid, and they can end up extremely screwed up, and with a warped sense of why things are good or bad.

Both from my experience and from the various psychology texts I've seen, the way to do things is to teach the child empathy. Make them understand how much they're harming others. Teach them to care.

If all you do is teach them might makes right, -you- are the one in need of being smacked around, for adding to the chances of that child growing up to be a horrible, or screwed up person.

The worse thing to see is a kid that is "flinchy". You've probably seen it, the kid does something (like spills their juice) and as soon as they hear their mom or dad coming, they run and hide, or cower down in a defensive posture. The first time my daughter did that, it was like a bucket of cold water had been poured on me. I don't want a fearful child. I want a child that is able to fix her mistakes, and you can't do that when you're afraid.

I wasn't spanked. And I am now a lazy oaf. Learn this lesson.

Plus I hate children and given the chance I would send them to work down the mines. Then they'd grow up right, if deformed.

I disagree.. It is this reaction which has led to children with less and less respect for authority figures...


So you are saying, and allow me to paraphrase:

Not spanking has resulted in children who have less respect for authority figures.

So, if we spanked our kids like crazy, they would respect authority?

Your reasoning is flawed, and not backed up by a shred of evidence. EVERY study out there has pointed to consistent discipline (not corporal) as the BEST way to deal with undesirable behaviours. There is much more at play here than the lack of spanking, and if you aren't aware of that, then you are going to have problems.

I disagree.. It is this reaction which has led to children with less and less respect for authority figures..

Yeah, hit them and see how much more respect they'll have for "authority" figures. :rolleyes:

but in today society, there are many circumstances in which corpral punishment is the most effective, and anything less is a signal to the child that they have the power in the relationship toward authority figures
Name those situations in which corporal punishment would be the most effective method.

The people who voted "definitely" either don't have children or have some misguided views on how to raise children.

People who think that fail to instill discipline in children, and have kids that act up in public.

I agree with spanking, esspecially the spanking of monkeys.

Your reasoning is flawed, and not backed up by a shred of evidence. EVERY study out there has pointed to consistent discipline (not corporal) as the BEST way to deal with undesirable behaviours. There is much more at play here than the lack of spanking, and if you aren't aware of that, then you are going to have problems.
His evidence is not flawed, you just dont agree with him.
Just because you dont see things the same way as someone else, doesnt make their view wrong.

I -was- spanked, and I'm lazy as well. So...

I used to be a pretty screwed up kid. I only relaxed when I was big enough to survive a fist fight with my dad (Even now, with him being fifty-four, and me being twenty-two, he'd STILL beat me down, but I'd at least bruise him first). After the fear of getting the crap beat out of me faded, I became much more open, more comfortable with life in general, and the confidence gets me a fair dose of female attention.

And I've -never- had respect for authority, just fear of getting stepped on, which went away when I was twelve, and realized that they're all idiots anyways, so their authority is transitory.

GTA 3 said it best "So you think that teaching children from an early age that violence is the solution to problems is a good thing?"

Now smacking out of anger is always bad. That said there are times when children (and adults) need to be whacked one.

As for time outs don't send them to their room! Send them to another room, like the bath room.

I believe that you never have to hit a child but sometimes its best.

That said I was spanked growing up and I'm one twisted sadomasicst now so...

Now that being said, I grew up in a family with four younger brothers who all ended up MUCH bigger than me (I'm 5 feet even, they're all over 6'4"...go figure). My mom used to spank us before she decided it didn't work. However, I grew up slapping, hitting and bullying my brothers...and defending myself from them too. I tend to be a person who hits others (jokingly, lightly, but still) quite often, and sometimes it takes people off guard. I've really had to watch myself so I don't slap my kids (on the arm or whatever) for little things, and I've been trying to stop hitting others too (like I said, it's lightly, like when someone makes a joke...ah whatever, I won't defend it). Some days I don't do so well, and I find that I've reacted immediately to something by smacking my daughter's hand. I always feel terrible, I make a big deal about it and apologise and say, "Bad mommy, not nice!" I'm not teaching her anything, and when I see her slap her sister, I'm afraid she is imitating me. Now, before I react, I count...it sounds cheesy, but it works. By the time I get to 3, I'm able to deal with the situation in a different way.

I think the majority of the time, we spank, or hit without thought. If we actually waited a bit, cooled down a tad, we simply wouldn't do it. Can you see yourself even five minutes after the event going and spanking your child for what they've done? Spankings generally occur in the few instants after something happens. Do you really want to just give into impulse like that? Is that something you want to teach your kids?

Quite frankly yes... I was spanked as a child, im nither prone to physical activity toward other people nor are my brother or sister... In fact I rather keep to my self in that sense, i feel uncomfortable invading other peoples "private space"... However, i know many people who have the same pyshicalness that you do.. and they were never spanked once by their parents.... so it may have been a personality thing and your making an improper connection.

and like a nother fellow said.. the punishment must fit the crime... im not saying spank your kid for every little thing.. but for the most hanous things.. you have to give the kid consequences.... and some times a "time out" just wont cut it. Neither should you be spanking children at too early an age, and there comes a point when spanking nolonger becomes useful (i would say early teens). But for that period inbetween its vital to show kids the consequences of their actions.

Like i said before.. you should never act out of anger, or reaction.. but you should give warning before ever laying a finger on them.. And if they persist.. you have an obligation to follow through with your threat.

I -was- spanked, and I'm lazy as well. So...

I used to be a pretty screwed up kid. I only relaxed when I was big enough to survive a fist fight with my dad (Even now, with him being fifty-four, and me being twenty-two, he'd STILL beat me down, but I'd at least bruise him first). After the fear of getting the crap beat out of me faded, I became much more open, more comfortable with life in general, and the confidence gets me a fair dose of female attention.

And I've -never- had respect for authority, just fear of getting stepped on, which went away when I was twelve, and realized that they're all idiots anyways, so their authority is transitory.
Sounds like that went a bit beyond spanking

People who think that fail to instill discipline in children, and have kids that act up in public.
Ok, lets get some definitions straight here.

Main Entry: 1dis·ci·pline

1 : PUNISHMENT
2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION
3 : a field of study
4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character
5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior

Do you want obedience...


Main Entry: re·spon·si·ble
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : TRUSTWORTHY b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong

...or responsibility?

If you teach your kids properly, they UNDERSTAND why they should act certain ways in certain situations. If you hit them, you only teach them that they should act that way WHEN YOU ARE AROUND TO HIT THEM IF THEY DON'T. What they learn through spanking does not transfer to their life away from your heavy hand. When you teach them responsibility, that transfers, and you have a much better chance of your child doing the right thing because they KNOW it's right, rather than doing the right thing because they're afraid you'll find out if they mess up.

His evidence is not flawed, you just dont agree with him.
Just because you dont see things the same way as someone else, doesnt make their view wrong.
You're right. His evidence is not flawed, it is lacking. I have yet to see a single study that shows that spanking is a useful deterrance.

Ok, lets get some definitions straight here.


Do you want obedience...



...or responsibility?

If you teach your kids properly, they UNDERSTAND why they should act certain ways in certain situations. If you hit them, you only teach them that they should act that way WHEN YOU ARE AROUND TO HIT THEM IF THEY DON'T. What they learn through spanking does not transfer to their life away from your heavy hand. When you teach them responsibility, that transfers, and you have a much better chance of your child doing the right thing because they KNOW it's right, rather than doing the right thing because they're afraid you'll find out if they mess up.

The above text comes straight out of the Liberal Dictionary of Propaganda.
Ignore this fool.

Quite frankly yes... I was spanked as a child, im nither prone to physical activity toward other people nor are my brother or sister... In fact I rather keep to my self in that sense, i feel uncomfortable invading other peoples "private space"... However, i know many people who have the same pyshicalness that you do.. and they were never spanked once by their parents.... so it may have been a personality thing and your making an improper connection.

and like a nother fellow said.. the punishment must fit the crime... im not saying spank your kid for every little thing.. but for the most hanous things.. you have to give the kid consequences.... and some times a "time out" just wont cut it. Neither should you be spanking children at too early an age, and there comes a point when spanking nolonger becomes useful (i would say early teens). But for that period inbetween its vital to show kids the consequences of their actions.

Like i said before.. you should never act out of anger, or reaction.. but you should give warning before ever laying a finger on them.. And if they persist.. you have an obligation to follow through with your threat.
Yes. Don't hit out of anger. Don't let hitting be your only response, and above all, be consistant. I am fine with that. However, if you can't develop strategies outside of hitting, you shouldn't be raising children. I don't think that is the case with you. If you say your are going to do something, then do it...but always make some time to discuss it later with your child (age allowing of course). What did they do and why, what did you do and why, and what could they do better next time.

Spanking should be a last resort, and not a METHOD of discipline. Your discipline needs to include the things you have mentioned above, with spanking a minor component for specific things.

Sounds like that went a bit beyond spanking

Nope. But I've sparred with him. And he's been fighting for much of his life. When he was younger than I am now, he took on five guys who had knives, and doesn't even have a scar to show for it. Some of them later went and killed people. A few years ago, some moron at work took a swing at him, my dad just dodged it and knocked the guy on his ass in one hit, then pulped him to make sure he wouldn't get up. Mind you, my grandpa used to think the world was going to end at the year 2000, so my dad was trained to "fight the devil". Seriously.

My dad never did anything worse than spanking me, hitting me with a belt, or kicking me in the ass with a heavy boot, but he sure as hell earned my enmity. I've nearly come to blows with him on a few occassions, as well, but the fact that I can still type shows that I managed to talk my way out of it.

--

As for studies, every psychological text book I've seen says that studies show that reward/punishment psychology leads to fucked up kids, especially if the punishment is abuse.

Frankly, guilt trips via empathy are the best method I've seen.

All of the hitting stuff comes from when we wanted our kids to be slaves on the farms.

What we needed was more options like a "in severe cases can be effective tool but should not be used without thought"

There are times and places where a swat on the butt is very effective, but there should have been a third option: used sparingly, only on the rear end, and only with your hand (no belts, no rulers, no hairbrushes, no wooden spoons etc.)

For example, if you're just coming out of a grocery store, you're pushing a loaded cart with one youngster in the cart seat, and another one walking beside you, when your 4 year old goes darting across the parking lot towards your car without looking for oncoming vehicles. You leap after her, grabbing her arm, and pull her back, saying 'No!' loudly and firmly. You give her a firm (not hard, but firm) smack on the rear and explain why little girls shouldn't run across streets and parking lots. But she's four and doesn't really understand what it means to be hurt so badly she could be in the hospital or die, so a lot of your speech is like the teachers in the Charlie Brown movies - she knows you're talking, but she doesn't really understand what you're saying. However, she will remember that if she runs across the parking lot without mommy, she'll get a swat on the butt, and she doesn't like swats on the butt. She'll have that to remember until she's old enough to understand why it's bad to run through traffic.

Another caveat: Smacking a kid in anger is always bad.

Nope. But I've sparred with him. And he's been fighting for much of his life. When he was younger than I am now, he took on five guys who had knives, and doesn't even have a scar to show for it. Some of them later went and killed people. A few years ago, some moron at work took a swing at him, my dad just dodged it and knocked the guy on his ass in one hit, then pulped him to make sure he wouldn't get up. Mind you, my grandpa used to think the world was going to end at the year 2000, so my dad was trained to "fight the devil". Seriously.

My dad never did anything worse than spanking me, hitting me with a belt, or kicking me in the ass with a heavy boot, but he sure as hell earned my enmity. I've nearly come to blows with him on a few occassions, as well, but the fact that I can still type shows that I managed to talk my way out of it.

--

As for studies, every psychological text book I've seen says that studies show that reward/punishment psychology leads to fucked up kids, especially if the punishment is abuse.

Frankly, guilt trips via empathy are the best method I've seen.

All of the hitting stuff comes from when we wanted our kids to be slaves on the farms.

Yeah I dident pick on my dad till I got bigger then him ... and got my first black belt :D

The above text comes straight out of the Liberal Dictionary of Propaganda.
Ignore this fool.
Yes, ignore me because I am a liberal (let's just say left instead). Ignore me, because I have children, and teach children, so clearly have no idea of what I am talking about. Ignore me, because even though you don't know me or my children, OR my class, no doubt they are the most unruly, undisciplined children on earth. While you're at it, blatantly stereotype and dismiss everything any one who is remotely left says, because they are flat out wrong.

Or you could engage in reasonable discussion like an adult. I know what Hiter Jr. here often chooses, and I know he doesn't particularly like me, because I am not white. (based on previous experience)

But whatever...

What we needed was more options like a "in severe cases can be effective tool but should not be used without thought"
I agree...it can't be an all or nothing thing. Well, it can be a nothing thing...NOT spanking doesn't mean your kids will necessarily be irresponsible.

The problem with that is that people end up not learning the -real- reason not to do things.

"If I cross the street, mommy will hit me"

can end up being:

"So I'll make sure mommy's not around when I cross the street."

It doesn't WORK.

The problem with that is that people end up not learning the -real- reason not to do things.

"If I cross the street, mommy will hit me"

can end up being:

"So I'll make sure mommy's not around when I cross the street."

It doesn't WORK.
There you go. Teach them to fear YOU and all you do is make sure they don't ever get caught by you.

I agree...it can't be an all or nothing thing. Well, it can be a nothing thing...NOT spanking doesn't mean your kids will necessarily be irresponsible.
Though the "deffinatly" option just means that you agree that it should be a tool (it makes no refference to ammount or situations) so it could be a deffinatly as well

I disagree.. It is this reaction which has led to children with less and less respect for authority figures...

Through out my time in school, i simply saw each grade after me degrade in their social manners... which most of the faculty agreed with.

Today we have higher rates of drug use in young kids, WAY higher rates of child sexual activity, and the lack of respect that runs rampent through children is undeniable.

Im not attributing all of this to improper punishment techniques, obviously i know the media has much to do with it. However, given the enviornment, it is not helpful to attack the very techinques which fight heavy influencers like the media while the alternative has such a bad track record. Perhaps in the right circumstances.. techniques like time out would have its place... but in today society, there are many circumstances in which corpral punishment is the most effective, and anything less is a signal to the child that they have the power in the relationship toward authority figures

Amen to the first sentence. You've got to at least be willing to show them that bad behavior will not slide. If they think that they can get away with poor behavior now... they'll be brats/a-holes as adults. Lack of discipline is very likely the main reason (among environmental inputs) for people's lack of respect for not only authority figures, but other people in general.

There you go. Teach them to fear YOU and all you do is make sure they don't ever get caught by you.

Yep. It's part of why I'm overweight and can sneak around like a cat burgler. Folks never gave me a real reason why I shouldn't snag cookies in the middle of the night, but would get mad and yell at me (Not hitting, but still just as useless) if they caught me. So I became "one with the shadows".

Think "Beverly Hills Ninja", but thinner and less on crack.

Ok, lets get some definitions straight here.

Do you want obedience...

...or responsibility?

If you teach your kids properly, they UNDERSTAND why they should act certain ways in certain situations. If you hit them, you only teach them that they should act that way WHEN YOU ARE AROUND TO HIT THEM IF THEY DON'T. What they learn through spanking does not transfer to their life away from your heavy hand. When you teach them responsibility, that transfers, and you have a much better chance of your child doing the right thing because they KNOW it's right, rather than doing the right thing because they're afraid you'll find out if they mess up.

I want kids that don't threaten their parents with lawsuits if they don't get their way.
I want kids that don't throw chairs at teachers when their backs are turned.

Children are NOT little adults. They do not know rationality, or even right from wrong.

Now, I'm not saying you beat them silly. I'm not saying that you reach for the belt first thing. But there are people out there that never spank their kids, and quite frankly, their kids need it.

They need to know that it is not acceptable to run up and down the aisle of the church during the bringing of the gifts.
They need to know that they can't just take things from other people's houses.
Etc.

And, btw, I grew up and was spanked if I did something VERY wrong. When children have no fear (either from no spanking, or from too much), that is when things are at their worst.

There is are times and circumstances where spanking is warrented.

So you are saying, and allow me to paraphrase:

Not spanking has resulted in children who have less respect for authority figures.

So, if we spanked our kids like crazy, they would respect authority?

Your reasoning is flawed, and not backed up by a shred of evidence. EVERY study out there has pointed to consistent discipline (not corporal) as the BEST way to deal with undesirable behaviours. There is much more at play here than the lack of spanking, and if you aren't aware of that, then you are going to have problems.

I agree.. consistent disciplin is best... and im not saying we should spank for every little thing... but there are things children do, which are BEST addressed by corporal punishment. And I do attribute lack of respect for authority by an inability by parents to punish their children adequatly.

As a child I was spanked, and (though not always) I thought twice before doing something wrong, because I knew the concequences that might come.

For the child, what are you telling them when they do something wrong. The worst that can happen is that I will lose something like television privliges.. or maybe ill have to stay in the bathroom for an hour or so. While kids may not like it at the time, I think the last thing they are thinking about is weather or not they will have a toy taken away right before they do something wrong. However, I can almost garantee the thought of being spanked may cross their mind, which is what we want... (to have kids second guess their actions of wrong doing before they engage in them)

Perhaps my reasoning on this is simplistic... but i grew up through both methods, I know which ones worked best on me and my brothers and sisters, and I know how I turned out in comparison to most other children.... Not only this, but I have many friends who grew up with simpilar punishment techquies and similarly they also turned out far more tempered respectful children/young adults then the many who were not spanked. There are generalizations here, but I have observed the route children have gone today, and there is vastly much more disrespect, for teachers, and even for parents. When the child continually disrespects their parents it is a clear signal something has gone wrong

Though the "deffinatly" option just means that you agree that it should be a tool (it makes no refference to ammount or situations) so it could be a deffinatly as well
Yeah...but it's vague:) Some people here are going to be for more spanking than others...but I think we're doing a good job of defining how much spanking we are okay with, if we're okay with it at all. Except for the extremists who haven't yet said how much spanking is enough, or for what situations they would use it.

1) Easier to threaten a parent with a lawsuit for hitting them.

2) Throwing chairs is a violent behavior. Gee, where would a kid learn violent behavior if their parents used violence on them to express their being upset...

3) Teach the buggers to be rational. I was rational as a child to the point where I was playing counselor to a girl who's brother had committed suicide when I had just gottan out of FIFTH grade. Kids stay irrational when you act irrationally around them.

4) Church. Ah. All makes sense now.

Of course, the wooden spoon for major offenses.. is not enough on its own.

Just as simply talking things out is not enough on its own. There must be bite or they'll just be like, "Yeah, yeah" and roll their eyes at you.

So how about a hybrid light spanking/explanation model for child discipline. Tell them the rules; if they disobey, spank them; then, tell them WHY you spanked them and how they should alter their behavior in the future to avoid like punishment.

(and by "spank" i don't mean that you injure them... not just light taps but not so hard that they can't sit down)

Yeah...but it's vague:) Some people here are going to be for more spanking than others...but I think we're doing a good job of defining how much spanking we are okay with, if we're okay with it at all. Except for the extremists who haven't yet said how much spanking is enough, or for what situations they would use it.
Though to be fair both sides (except extreemes) usualy agree that moderation is the key to using it as a tool

Just one side sees any restriction automaticaly on it as "NOSPANKING!!!!1!!!"
And the other side see's "I WANT TO BEAT MY KIDSTODEAH !!!111!!!"

Open hand, clothed bottom, leaving no marks is the only way to spank a child. Generally, if it gets to that point, it usually means that as a parent, you've missed an opportunity for corrective action earlier on. Maybe not always, but usually.

Yeah...but it's vague:) Some people here are going to be for more spanking than others...but I think we're doing a good job of defining how much spanking we are okay with, if we're okay with it at all. Except for the extremists who haven't yet said how much spanking is enough, or for what situations they would use it.

This fellow said it best "corporal punishment should be reserved for cases where the child's or someone else's saftey is at risk, or when valuable property is repeatedly threatened with destruction."

All of these are conidtions in which corporal punishment is best served...

I believe that spanking is an appropriate punishment at times. It should, however, be a last resort and never done out of anger. Also, it should never result in physical injury. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I was spanked as a child. Only once was it abusive and that was by my grandfather rather than my parents. The other times, I deserved it and learned from it.

I didn't answer the poll, because I don't believe it is "THE" proper form of discipline. It is one of many proper forms of discipline and should be used sparingly.

I want kids that don't threaten their parents with lawsuits if they don't get their way.
Oh. Please. If your kids are that at odds with you that they are willing to SUE you if you spank them, you have bigger issues than spanking alone.

I want kids that don't throw chairs at teachers when their backs are turned.
Uh-huh...and the majority of kids who DON'T are taught not to by spanking? I don't see the correlation.

Children are NOT little adults. They do not know rationality, or even right from wrong.
Nor are they brainless and emotionless little amoeba who have no inkling of what goes on around them. Read up on some child development literature...their morality and their conception of right and wrong develop at specific stages. You have to deal with them at their level...at first, you teach them not to hit other kids because that kid won't want to play with them if they do. Then you teach them that it hurts and that they would feel bad if someone hit them. Then you teach them other ways of expressing emotions OTHER than hitting...or teach them how to ask for things rather than demanding. Too many people have little understanding of how children develop, and take them for granted. Children are PEOPLE, and they have emotions and they have memory and they have understanding that is only limited by their developmental level.

Now, I'm not saying you beat them silly. I'm not saying that you reach for the belt first thing. But there are people out there that never spank their kids, and quite frankly, their kids need it.
And there are people out there who never spank, and their kids are well-behaved, respectful and responsible. Again, if you don't have an effective method of teaching your children that is a flaw in YOUR CHILD-RAISING, not a flaw in your children...spanking is no quick fix to a bad system of discipline.

They need to know that it is not acceptable to run up and down the aisle of the church during the bringing of the gifts.
They need to know that they can't just take things from other people's houses.
Etc.
None of those things can't be taught without spanking. Not one.

Besides, its always tons of fun to share different techinques of hitting your parents used on u with your friends... so u can see which poor soul had the hardest life >.< :P ... Of all my friends, i stil think im the winner

1) Easier to threaten a parent with a lawsuit for hitting them.

2) Throwing chairs is a violent behavior. Gee, where would a kid learn violent behavior if their parents used violence on them to express their being upset...

3) Teach the buggers to be rational. I was rational as a child to the point where I was playing counselor to a girl who's brother had committed suicide when I had just gottan out of FIFTH grade. Kids stay irrational when you act irrationally around them.

4) Church. Ah. All makes sense now.

Lack of church. Ah. All makes sense now.

Do you enjoy being led on a leash by puppies?

The problem with that is that people end up not learning the -real- reason not to do things.

"If I cross the street, mommy will hit me"

can end up being:

"So I'll make sure mommy's not around when I cross the street."

It doesn't WORK.

To expand on that, it also teaches that might makes right. You can make other people do what you want if you can beat up when they don't.

So how about a hybrid light spanking/explanation model for child discipline. Tell them the rules; if they disobey, spank them; then, tell them WHY you spanked them and how they should alter their behavior in the future to avoid like punishment.

Let me just say WHY I believe spanking has to be an ultimate last resort. You should never escalate to the strongest deterrent. When you do that, you leave yourself no room to manoeuver, and if the deterrent no longer works, what then? If you go straight to spanking, what could you possibly do that is worse if the behaviour continues? It's like in school...if you go straight to sending kids to the office for breaking rules, you can't possibly do worse, other than kicking them out of school (which is often seen as a reward anyway). The action loses its effectiveness.

Take away their weed. That'll get their attention.

[QUOTE=Frangland]Lack of church. Ah. All makes sense now.

very true...

Take away their weed. That'll get their attention.
Na...smoking it in front of them works better...and hurts more...though I'm not sure what you're teaching them...but WHO CARES! FREE WEED! :D

Lack of church. Ah. All makes sense now.

very true...
Let's leave church out of this...

Let me just say WHY I believe spanking has to be an ultimate last resort.

I agree that it should be a last resort, as long as it isn't removed from the list of options entirely.

i personally think spanking is wrong im a kid (15) and i wasnt spanked and i dont go around disrecpecting adults. in some cases spanking might work but only if they did something really wrong there are other forms of punisment, i agree about what you said about time outs or sending them to there rooms but what good will hitting them do sure in some cases it worked but in other cases it raised worse kids in school there more rebilious and dont care about anything if your gonna do it do it only for the extreme cases or not at all it might raise them to beat there own children or hate people. try teaching them what to do when there young so they'll be used to being respectful when there my age

Let me just say WHY I believe spanking has to be an ultimate last resort. You should never escalate to the strongest deterrent. When you do that, you leave yourself no room to manoeuver, and if the deterrent no longer works, what then? If you go straight to spanking, what could you possibly do that is worse if the behaviour continues? It's like in school...if you go straight to sending kids to the office for breaking rules, you can't possibly do worse, other than kicking them out of school (which is often seen as a reward anyway). The action loses its effectiveness.

on the flip side, you severely limit your manuverablity when you limit your options. By removing spanking all together, what then becomes the worst thing you can do to a child for misbehaving. A lecture, a loss of privliage (TV, games, friends ?), a time out ?? .. If your kid is running around breaking everything in sight, or pushing other kids down to the floor continually after you have warned them... perhaps it is the very fact that they have NO fear at all which is pushing them.

I dont think living in CONSTANT fear is right or acceptable.. however, fear allows us to understand our limits and gives us a deturrent from exceeding them. Having no fear allows us to do what we want however we want. And not all children have the CAPACITY to be rational at all times, and without some fear giving them limits... well just look at kids today..

All i know is, 40 years ago spanking was a tool parents used (maybe sometimes even too much) however, kids then are very different then kids today. And i dont see how you could NOT attribute poor punishment skills by parents (especially through a lack of spanking for the most serious of infractions) to a lack of respect for authority figures.

I agree that it should be a last resort, as long as it isn't removed from the list of options entirely.
No one is doing that. The only person that can remove it from your list of options is yourself. If you are really afraid that someone will come and take your kids away if you spank, or that your child would sue you if you did, you need to inform yourself. You can not decide not to spank based on ignorance and vague ideas of being oppressed. Your decision to spank or not to spank should be a well-thought out one. In those cases, it is unlikely to be abusive. Using it just because "liberals are trying to tell us how to raise our kids" is not an informed decision.

By the way, I'm not aiming that at you:)

on the flip side, you severely limit your manuverablity when you limit your options. By removing spanking all together, what then becomes the worst thing you can do to a child for misbehaving. A lecture, a loss of privliage (TV, games, friends ?), a time out ?? .. If your kid is running around breaking everything in sight, or pushing other kids down to the floor continually after you have warned them... perhaps it is the very fact that they have NO fear at all which is pushing them.

I dont think living in CONSTANT fear is right or acceptable.. however, fear allows us to understand our limits and gives us a deturrent from exceeding them. Having no fear allows us to do what we want however we want. And not all children have the CAPACITY to be rational at all times, and without some fear giving them limits... well just look at kids today..

All i know is, 40 years ago spanking was a tool parents used (maybe sometimes even too much) however, kids then are very different then kids today. And i dont see how you could NOT attribute poor punishment skills by parents (especially through a lack of spanking for the most serious of infractions) to a lack of respect for authority figures.
I myself haven't ruled out spanking. So perhaps someone who NEVER spanks would explain their discipline methods to us. However, I can say that as my children are getting older, I spank less and less, and eventually fully expect to never have to again.

No one is doing that. The only person that can remove it from your list of options is yourself. If you are really afraid that someone will come and take your kids away if you spank, or that your child would sue you if you did, you need to inform yourself. You can not decide not to spank based on ignorance and vague ideas of being oppressed. Your decision to spank or not to spank should be a well-thought out one. In those cases, it is unlikely to be abusive. Using it just because "liberals are trying to tell us how to raise our kids" is not an informed decision.

By the way, I'm not aiming that at you:)

Your wrong.. we are doing that as a society to the parents who do spank.. Teachers, activists, other parents who dont spank all impose their techniques on the parents who do saying they are wrong... trying to enact feelings of guilt or wrong doing on the parents themselves....

Like I said before in my story, a woman I work with was approached by another woman after spanking her boy in a store for trying to break items. The perfect stranger made the suggestion she would call the police for that punishment... This is neither the first, nor an isolated incident through my eyes. It is wide spread, people in society think they have the right to dictate when spanking is approriate (even if they dont know the circumstances of the event). Spanking =/= abuse... there is a fine line between them.. a line most people dont take into consideration.

There are more effective methods of disciplining your child. Spanking should be a last resort, and saved for extreme occasions.For the record, I voted "definitely." However, this is when I would apply it. Spanking would be a last resort used in the case a child has put himself or herself in danger or whatnot. Taking a child's toys or playtime away may be more effective at times.

If a child breaks something, force the child to pay for it. Obviously, if an eight year old breaks something like a $700 item the child's not going to be able to pay for it by taking out the trash and turning in a $10 weekly allowance, but something like a $25 toy, make the child pay for it. If the child whines about not having lunch money, tough luck. If the child can't buy that pair of Air Jordans (or whatever the hell is popular these days), too bad. That's when I'd say, "well, you should have thought of that before you broke Aunt Edna's valuable vase."

High school kid grounded the week of the prom? Oh well. Sucks to be him. Has to miss football practice? That's the price you pay. Children have to learn the consequences of their actions and have to be responsible for them within reason. Obviously, my example above of an eight year old paying for a $700 item isn't going to be reasonable to expect the child to pay for it, but the child can pay you back in the form of doing extra chores AND a reduced or eliminated allowance.

For the record, if it's something like a kid not being able to pay for his high school yearbook, I might tell the kid that's the price he'll pay and then sneak over to the school and buy it for him or her, then hold it in abeyance until the kid's made good and the lesson's been learned. Then I'd surprise him with it. That's one thing my mother was adamant about when I was a problem child with her: A high school yearbook is going to bring back memories. Denying that would be a price that would be paid many years down the road.

As a child I was spanked, and grew up as an upstanding citzen with respect for authority and the people around me. I think this is something that can scarely be said about the young adults today and even worse the children of today....
I never want to Ban Spanking...Like some Pedo-psyco-xperts want.

Notice that all those pedo-psyco-xperts have only one kid...or no kids at all.

Your wrong.. we are doing that as a society to the parents who do spank.. Teachers, activists, other parents who dont spank all impose their techniques on the parents who do saying they are wrong... trying to enact feelings of guilt or wrong doing on the parents themselves....

Like I said before in my story, a woman I work with was approached by another woman after spanking her boy in a store for trying to break items. The perfect stranger made the suggestion she would call the police for that punishment... This is neither the first, nor an isolated incident through my eyes. It is wide spread, people in society think they have the right to dictate when spanking is approriate (even if they dont know the circumstances of the event). Spanking =/= abuse... there is a fine line between them.. a line most people dont take into consideration.

Now first of all, was this a swat on the butt, or a series of blows?

Listen, as a parent, you get used to all sorts of unsolicited advice and denigration from complete strangers. You grow a thick skin, or you stay inside all day cowering behind your couch. People see you with kids, and take it as carte blanche to give you all sorts of parenting advice. That is why I say get informed. Don't be bullied by ignorant strangers. If they say, "I'm going to report you", tell them "Go ahead, the law in my area states that corporal punishment, used sparingly and for the express function of deterrent is allowed..."or whatever your laws are. Stupid people will get in your face over the silliest things...deal with it in a mature, and confident manner as you would with any other situation. Don't allow people to blackmail you or dictate your behaviour...YOU should be controlling your behaviour, and enacting your discipline in a manner consistent with your beliefs.

Let's leave church out of this...

i would only include church to the point at which it provides structure... even a greater problem then not spanking is the fact that most households dont uphold some method of structure for children... perhaps they think that is the schools responsibility (which it can't be since parents striped schools of most of their power to punish) or that they think its not nessesary (which almost every study shows is nessesary). Religion and church is an excellent source of structure for kids to build on.

Interstingly, Sweden has banned any spanking (or any other corp. punis.) by parents since at least the 70s, and still people respect the authorities and other people.

I want kids that don't throw chairs at teachers when their backs are turned....and the majority of kids who DON'T are taught not to by spanking? I don't see the correlation.The correlation is that in places like Singapore...Kids don't throw chairs at teachers... as a matter of fact, they don't throw anything at teachers...and they dont have Bully/Taxation...and they dont flush the nerd kids at the Toilet bowls.

I was never assaulted (for that is what it is, lets not get namby-pamby with words like 'smacking' now) by my parents, and I personally happen to believe that children shouldn't be asaulted by their parents, but then that's just my fluffy liberal pinko view, right?
Now, after having an assault-free childhood, I regularly beat up old ladies for money to by heroin, before smahing up some phoneboxes, spitting at policemen and spraying graffiti on cats... or maybe not. I have never done anything of that kind, I have never had so much as a detention slip from school. I treat all 'authority figures', particularly my parents, with politeness and respect, rarely become angry, am wonderfully moralistic in my appraoch to alcohol, drugs, smoking etc, and work hard to get good marks in all my sums. Such a good little scion of social values. And yes, I do annoy myself at times, and yes, I was just taking the mick out of myself. However, these habits are ingrained into me from by peaceful upbringing and parents who treat me with respect and consideration, not with anger and violence.

Hence, 'smacking' is hardly proper and most certainly -not- neccesary.

Mikorlias.

No one is doing that. The only person that can remove it from your list of options is yourself. If you are really afraid that someone will come and take your kids away if you spank, or that your child would sue you if you did, you need to inform yourself. You can not decide not to spank based on ignorance and vague ideas of being oppressed. Your decision to spank or not to spank should be a well-thought out one. In those cases, it is unlikely to be abusive. Using it just because "liberals are trying to tell us how to raise our kids" is not an informed decision.

By the way, I'm not aiming that at you:)

For the most part you are correct. As a social worker, I have seen parents have their parental rights challenged for spanking that was done in the best interest of the child and did the child no physical damage by over zealous socialworkers who were on a crusade. It can happen, though it is rare.

BTW, I didn't think you were aiming at me as we basically seem to agree on this subject.

i would only include church to the point at which it provides structure... even a greater problem then not spanking is the fact that most households dont uphold some method of structure for children... perhaps they think that is the schools responsibility (which it can't be since parents striped schools of most of their power to punish) or that they think its not nessesary (which almost every study shows is nessesary). Religion and church is an excellent source of structure for kids to build on.
Yes, but you can be just as negligent if you think that church and religion, without your input are going to provide structure for your kids.

Parents need to provide structure, period. They can do it within the framework of religion, or without. No one can do it for you, not your school, not your babysitter, not your church, not your police force:)

I was never assaulted
Hence waste any 'smacking' .
before you make more big posts...
the poll is about "Spank"

all you big post is pointless because you are not talking even once about "Spanking"...

Ok, well, I don't think "spanking" a child is proper discipline but (a little Southern word here cuz I am, Southern) a "whooping" is. I was "whooped" as a child. Actually, I was only "whooped" about 3 times at the most and I am basically a rule abiding guy. I really don't do anything wrong. I mean, being 17 and all, I have smoked a few cigarettes and drank a few beers. Other than that, I'm a decent guy. I don't respect my elders, none of that. Of course, that could just be my Southern upbringing. I have noticed that people from the North are rude...very rude...

Children need discipline in the form of physical pain as it is the only thing they understand. Otherwise you get gutter mouthed little council estate dwelling kids who can get away with anything they want, a lot of kids just need a damn slap to put them in line. There is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking, of course not to the point of inflicting permanent injuries.
The people who protest against smacking either do not have kids or do not know how to raise them.

The correlation is that in places like Singapore...Kids don't throw chairs at teachers... as a matter of fact, they don't throw anything at teachers...and they dont have Bully/Taxation...and they dont flush the nerd kids at the Toilet bowls.
And they don't do these things because they are spanked, or caned? Or do they NOT do these things because the entire social structure works to instill responsibility in children?

Kids who have throw chairs at me have ALL been victims of very severe abuse, with low impulse control and lack of any ability to connect cause to effect.

Yes, but you can be just as negligent if you think that church and religion, without your input are going to provide structure for your kids.

Parents need to provide structure, period. They can do it within the framework of religion, or without. No one can do it for you, not your school, not your babysitter, not your church, not your police force:)

but by having a frame work from which to work in, it becomes far easier for parents to institute this structure, rather then trying to wing it on their own..

Children need discipline in the form of physical pain as it is the only thing they understand. Otherwise you get gutter mouthed little council estate dwelling kids who can get away with anything they want, a lot of kids just need a damn slap to put them in line. There is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking, of course not to the point of inflicting permanent injuries.
The people who protest against smacking either do not have kids or do not know how to raise them.
I'm not sure if this is satire, but I'm going to take it as such. And report you to social services if you have kids.

:D

Children need discipline in the form of physical pain as it is the only thing they understand.
Yes, they're like dogs that way. Stupid children. Love, they don't get, but pain they do.

but by having a frame work from which to work in, it becomes far easier for parents to institute this structure, rather then trying to wing it on their own..
It is easier to have the system in place, yes, but hopefully you've planned your system out before you have kids...and if not, within that first year you better have something in place or you're going to have a hell of a time...

And they don't do these things because they are spanked, or caned? Or do they NOT do these things because the entire social structure works to instill responsibility in children?

Kids who have throw chairs at me have ALL been victims of very severe abuse, with low impulse control and lack of any ability to connect cause to effect.

dont try to connect that action to abuse entirely either... ive witnessed many children who do the same in reaction to the indifference of their parents. When children seek attention, they may commit infractions just as bad as those who are abused

dp

dont try to connect that action to abuse entirely either... ive witnessed many children who do the same in reaction to the indifference of their parents. When children seek attention, they may commit infractions just as bad as those who are abused
Neglect is a form of abuse, defined by Child Welfare. It can be just as damaging as beating a child.

By the way, since it was brought up, maybe we should all post our 'qualifications'.

I have two children, and I teach, special needs and 'regular' kids.

So when I say I'm not for spanking unless as a last resort for SPECIFIC situations, I am talking about how I actually raise my kids.

Children need discipline in the form of physical pain as it is the only thing they understand. I dont agree There is absolutely nothing wrong with smacking.spanking is sometimes nessesary...why smacking?
The people who protest against spanking either do not have kids ...often true.

So when I say I'm not for spanking unless as a last resort for SPECIFIC situations, I am talking about how I actually raise my kids. I'm for spanking as a last resort for SPECIFIC situations.
and I voted yes.

I was never smacked as a kid. (I'm 17 now.)
I don't talk back to teachers, other people's parents, other "authority figures". I've never thrown chairs at teachers, or anyone else.
So it is completely possible to raise "decent, respectful children" without spanking. I still remember time out, toys taken away and having my library books taken away for a particularly henious infraction.
On the other hand, my cousin's kids are hellions. Absolute hellions, and they're smacked all the time.

I think that the vision of "spanking" is skewed to a much harsher version of what it actually is.

I dont think that spanking is 'needed', but rather a last resort to a troublesome child. I was only spanked once as a child, but after that only the thought(or the threat :p ) of it was enough to deter me from doing wrong.

I'm for spanking as a last resort for SPECIFIC situations.
and I voted yes.
You're supposed to state whether you have kids, or have children in your care, silly!

...
So it is completely possible to raise "decent, respectful children" without spanking.
IThink...Nobody said it was impossible...not all kids are the same.

I'm for spanking as a last resort for SPECIFIC situations.
and I voted yes.

I'm on the fence for this one- I dont spank my children and they are mostly well behaved. I think have given them each, at one point, an open handed smack on the rear end. I dont know what the right or wrong answer is here. I do know its very important not to hit them out of anger. I also remember being spanked twice as a child-and I dont recall thinking "Hey-maybe I should be better behaved"-it was more like "F-You!!!" and giving my parnets the finger behind there backs.

You're supposed to state whether you have kids, or have children in your care, silly!I didnt know I was suposed to.

My mother is a retired teacher...and my aunt owns a big Daycare.

before you make more big posts...
the poll is about "Spank"

all you big post is pointless because you are not talking even once about "Spanking"...

Your simple-mindedness disturbs me, the difference between the words is... what?

And yes, this is Imardeavia speaking, I cuoldn't be bothered to log out of my puppet to respond to some fool.

Mikorlias

I grew up eight years in Missouri, then, moved to California. First thing we all noticed was how rude people were. Anyways, i'm fifteen now. I was spanked earlier, but no longer, the last time I was, was probably when I was 8 actually. I do have a temper problem, but I respect elderly people, I have never backtalked adults, and I bealive in spanking, when used modertly.

My mom has an elderly friend from another country, New Zeland (sp?). About a month ago he went into a Carls Jr. He went to order his food, and two kids, abit younger than me, ran into him, knocked him down, and laughed when they did it. Now, no one said anything, not even the managment. Doesn't that ENCOURGE that behavour?

Your simple-mindedness disturbs me, the difference between the words is... what?

And yes, this is Imardeavia speaking, I cuoldn't be bothered to log out of my puppet to respond to some fool.

Mikorlias
No need to get personal...

I too see a difference between smacking and spanking. Spanking, I take to mean a pat on the butt. Smacking, I take to mean a blow to any part of the body.

I didn't find the time to read all the replies, although I noticed a lot of similar views to mine. I couldn't vote for the issue, because I didn't find it a yes or no issue. It depends on the child, whose main influence the parents should strive to be. However circumstances change, surroundings differ and all these have influence to the mind of the child. I can imagine that at some point, if nothing else simply seems to work, that what some call "corporeal punishment" could be in order. This, however, should not be something parents should turn to due to laziness, which is often the case; not willing to argue the lecture to the end, but rather assume the position of a judge and punisher. This I do not approve. If the child won't understand the reason for the punishment, nothing is achieved and thus you have only distanced yourself from him/her.

I respect my parents, but more than that, I love them, even though I was sometimes pulled from the hair if I didn't behave. I wouldn't use the same method of punishment for my child, for it may affect future hairgrowth - an issue which had not been studied during the times of my punishments. The method of punishment should never be too harsh - the humiliation itself is the punishment and the anger of the one you love is the intimidation. If you can't gain your childs love (which usually comes from loving in return and showing it on a day to day basis), you won't gain your childs respect through punishment. You achieve fear and anger. Some succumb to fear (of authorities), some become excessively violent in the end. When I was a child and was punished, I was sometimes angry, sometimes hurt (sad), but in the end the real punishment I felt was that I had misbehaved and in doing so hurt my parents, and then I apologized and we usually settled the matter.

Simply spanking is conditioning, which doesn't teach the children proper values about life. It doesn't teach the child to care. I hope that when I become a father I can establish such a relationship with my child, that corporeal punishment will never be necessary. But sometimes, if the child refuses to listen, runs away even though he is told to stop, when catching him... (hmm... am I picturing too much to my old misbehavings as I child since I began to talk about "him") I might grab him to my lap and slap his butt a few times (since I believe it to be the safest way of corporeal punishment). After that I probably wouldn't have to do it again. Similar kind of methods worked for me and after that it was simply discussion which was the punishment. My parents told me to think and it worked. Since I knew they cared for me and I cared for them, and their opinions as well.

And if you were referring to literal spanking: NO to leather-straps, or any form of "weapon" for the punishment. Punishment should not be painful, but rather embarrassing (which doesn't mean you should punish in public).

Oh well... some stream of thoughts uninteresting perhaps to many. Raising a child is a balance, like so many other things in life. But it's a very important issue.

Oh. Please. If your kids are that at odds with you that they are willing to SUE you if you spank them, you have bigger issues than spanking alone.

Um, no. My friend's daughter came home from school one day and threatened to tell the teacher that he beat her if he didn't stop asking her for better grades on her report card. The girl is 8.


Uh-huh...and the majority of kids who DON'T are taught not to by spanking? I don't see the correlation.

If a child has absolutely no sense of fear, he has no sense of fear.


Nor are they brainless and emotionless little amoeba who have no inkling of what goes on around them.

Exactly right. But they need guidance. Lots of it. Being a kid means making a mistake sometimes. That's fine. When a 10 year old sets fire to the back yard? That's NOT a situation for a time-out.


Read up on some child development literature...their morality and their conception of right and wrong develop at specific stages.

I'm of the opinion that the literature is most of the problem. Humankind raised their progeny for hundreds of generations without that tripe. And I squarely lay the blame on parents that take toddlers to movies at 10PM. Sure, the kid might sleep through it, but it's not good for him.


You have to deal with them at their level...

Exactly! And sometimes, that means "negative reinforcement".


at first, you teach them not to hit other kids because that kid won't want to play with them if they do. Then you teach them that it hurts and that they would feel bad if someone hit them. Then you teach them other ways of expressing emotions OTHER than hitting...or teach them how to ask for things rather than demanding.

And I agree with that. But there simply ARE situations where the child needs to know that something is not acceptable, and needs to *know* it. Not think it, *know* it.


Too many people have little understanding of how children develop, and take them for granted. Children are PEOPLE, and they have emotions and they have memory and they have understanding that is only limited by their developmental level.

Absolutely. And I cite the same reasons as to why sometimes, spanking is warrented.

And there are people out there who never spank, and their kids are well-behaved, respectful and responsible. Again, if you don't have an effective method of teaching your children that is a flaw in YOUR CHILD-RAISING, not a flaw in your children...spanking is no quick fix to a bad system of discipline.


True. But that doesn't mean that it's due to the non-spanking.
Would you say that every child is equally smart, or agile, or good looking? No. By the same token, not all children need the same amount of discipline.


None of those things can't be taught without spanking. Not one.

I disagree; I think it depends on the child and situation.

And they don't do these things because they are spanked, or caned? Or do they NOT do these things because the entire social structure works to instill responsibility in children?

Kids who have throw chairs at me have ALL been victims of very severe abuse, with low impulse control and lack of any ability to connect cause to effect.

I don't think that OD or anyone else advocates beating kids, nor any other kind of abuse.

But the other extreme is worse: kids that grow up without a sense of right and wrong. I'm not saying that spanking imparts that, but it is a tool to do so, just as time out/grounding/denial of stuff are.

Um, no. My friend's daughter came home from school one day and threatened to tell the teacher that he beat her if he didn't stop asking her for better grades on her report card. The girl is 8.
Like I said...there is more at play here. How did this child learn to be so manipulative? This is not about spanking, this about trying to get her way by intimidation, and likely your friend is going to take it seriously, and deal with it.


In any case, I don't think we disagree on much. Neither of us is an all or nothing supporter, though I have seen examples of families that NEVER spank that have terrible kids, and wonderful kids. Yes, it depends on the kids and on the situation, which is the most important thing to keep in mind. Your use of spanking has to fit the situation. The people who are saying, yes spank, and everyone who says no is wrong are being unrealistic, and probably have little experience with children. The same with those who say the opposite. It depends on the parents, the child, the environment and the situation.

Your simple-mindedness disturbs me, the difference between the words is... what?

And yes, this is Imardeavia speaking, I cuoldn't be bothered to log out of my puppet to respond to some fool.SMACK, SPANK, ASSAULT.
You dont know the Differences???

You need a refund from your school, what grade are you anyways?
not even High school?

FYI
Spanking is striking on the buttocks.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/s/s0604000.html

Smacking is To hit anywhere with a quick, sharp blow of the hand.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/thes/s/s1400700.html

the First word you used is "Assault"...I hope you dont want me to pull the Dictionary on that one too.

BTW you look bad calling me a fool and exposing your ignorance on the same sentence.
I suggest you keep using your puppet to say stupid things like that.

It's rod, it's rod
You might find it odd!
But it's rod, it's rod
It's been prescribed by God!

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/01/10/campaigner_targets_spanking_tools_sale/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0800750829/qid=1109618150/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-3136431-8272913?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Not only do most parents not spank, many have the audacity to encroach themselves on parents who do. I have a friend i work with who was apporached by a woman after spanking her kid for being bad at the supermarket.. This stragener had the unbelivable nerve to say she should call the police for child abuse when the mother was simply disiplining her child for trying to break an item in the store.
Ha, the temptation to draw parallels to the official explanation for the Iraq war is hard to restrain!

Like I said...there is more at play here. How did this child learn to be so manipulative? This is not about spanking, this about trying to get her way by intimidation, and likely your friend is going to take it seriously, and deal with it.

yeah, i don't see how spanking that kid is going to fix a damn thing...if she's manipulative enough to come up with that sort of plot at age 8, spanking her probably isn't going to help matters. she'd just be more able to make good on her threat.


In any case, I don't think we disagree on much. Neither of us is an all or nothing supporter, though I have seen examples of families that NEVER spank that have terrible kids, and wonderful kids. Yes, it depends on the kids and on the situation, which is the most important thing to keep in mind. Your use of spanking has to fit the situation. The people who are saying, yes spank, and everyone who says no is wrong are being unrealistic, and probably have little experience with children. The same with those who say the opposite. It depends on the parents, the child, the environment and the situation.
i'm with ya on that one...i got belted a lot more than is healthy when i was young (and both my folks admit that), but i turned out alright anyhow. my brother has been struck by a parent perhaps three time in his entire life and he is also turning out just fine. it really depends a lot on the kid, the situation, and the other aspects of parenting that are brought into the mix.

I too see a difference between smacking and spanking. Spanking, I take to mean a pat on the butt. Smacking, I take to mean a blow to any part of the body.
BTW its not a good Idea to Smack on the back of the head.

the Butt is well protected (Spanking).

I don't think that OD or anyone else advocates beating kids, nor any other kind of abuse.

But the other extreme is worse: kids that grow up without a sense of right and wrong. I'm not saying that spanking imparts that, but it is a tool to do so, just as time out/grounding/denial of stuff are.

Where have you been, Markreich?! There are no such things as "right" and "wrong"!

Like I said...there is more at play here. How did this child learn to be so manipulative? This is not about spanking, this about trying to get her way by intimidation, and likely your friend is going to take it seriously, and deal with it.


In any case, I don't think we disagree on much. Neither of us is an all or nothing supporter, though I have seen examples of families that NEVER spank that have terrible kids, and wonderful kids. Yes, it depends on the kids and on the situation, which is the most important thing to keep in mind. Your use of spanking has to fit the situation. The people who are saying, yes spank, and everyone who says no is wrong are being unrealistic, and probably have little experience with children. The same with those who say the opposite. It depends on the parents, the child, the environment and the situation.

The difference in the arguments are... those who are opposed to spanking often advocate a no spanking aproach... as in, it is ALWAYS wrong to spank, and that there are other ways .. (yes there are other ways but far less effective)

And those who are pro-spanking are NOT advocating spanking for every situation or even most situations.. but that spanking should not be ruled out all together, because there are many circumstances in which spanking is far more nessesary then other methods.

Where have you been, Markreich?! There are no such things as "right" and "wrong"!
They are not advocating that … they are just saying that spanking is maybe not the best means of imparting right and wrong in your kids

Lack of church. Ah. All makes sense now.


I should probably note that I went to church as a child. I only stopped going when I realized they actually believed what they were singing. But hey, thanks for playing.

As for the result of my raising, I'm a compassionate person as a whole, but thanks to growing up in a household where you could get smacked for talking back, I have some anger issues that won't go away. Thankfully, I learned control later in life, just about exactly when my folks stopped using physical methods on me, and have been becoming happier swiftly.

My little sister still gets the occassional swat, on the other hand, and can be an utter bitch, because she never learned any sense of empathy (while I developed it early in life). She STILL goes to church on a regular basis, including all those cult-like 'retreats'.

But again, hey, thanks for playing.


Do you enjoy being led on a leash by puppies?

Can you explain this for those of us who lack pedophilic animal bondage fetishes?

The difference in the arguments are... those who are opposed to spanking often advocate a no spanking aproach... as in, it is ALWAYS wrong to spank, and that there are other ways .. (yes there are other ways but far less effective)

And those who are pro-spanking are NOT advocating spanking for every situation or even most situations.. but that spanking should not be ruled out all together, because there are many circumstances in which spanking is far more nessesary then other methods.

There are very rare situations where spanking may be required. Very very fricking rare. If a child tries to stab you with something (My little sister tried to stab me on two occassions.. ), spanking may work just for the safety of the household.

Still have to make damned sure you teach them the proper way as soon as possible.

I should probably note that I went to church as a child. I only stopped going when I realized they actually believed what they were singing. But hey, thanks for playing.

As for the result of my raising, I'm a compassionate person as a whole, but thanks to growing up in a household where you could get smacked for talking back, I have some anger issues that won't go away. Thankfully, I learned control later in life, just about exactly when my folks stopped using physical methods on me, and have been becoming happier swiftly.

My little sister still gets the occassional swat, on the other hand, and can be an utter bitch, because she never learned any sense of empathy (while I developed it early in life). She STILL goes to church on a regular basis, including all those cult-like 'retreats'.

But again, hey, thanks for playing.



Can you explain this for those of us who lack pedophilic animal bondage fetishes?

You took me far too seriously. I very much enjoy playing.

As for your anger-management problems, I suggest that you look into the old nature/nurture debates and resulting literature before dumping all of your problems on the fact that you've been spanked. You might have been an angry person if you'd not ever been spanked. At least you seem to have empathy (which in its own right may or may not be due to being spanked), which is a sign that you're not a sociopath... very, very good sign (i mean that... the world has enough sociopaths).

I was spanked (never injured or spanked in a malicious way) and i grew up to generally respect people and treat them well. I've never hurt anybody in my life outside of football or the occasional chicken fight during recess in grade school. hehe

Never make jokes on Mondays.

;)

There are very rare situations where spanking may be required. Very very fricking rare. If a child tries to stab you with something (My little sister tried to stab me on two occassions.. ), spanking may work just for the safety of the household.

Still have to make damned sure you teach them the proper way as soon as possible.

and that... is where your wrong.. again... If your child is trying to STAB someone... there is obviously problems far beyond what spanking will adress... you should read back through the posts to get an idea of what spanking is considered. A swat on the butt wont solve the problem ur sister has as she is trying to stab you. At that point she should be going to therapy (most children could probably use this).

Spanking should not be used as rarely as you sugget.. though it shoudl not be used for ever, or even most occasions.

1) My sister is evil.

2) It was when she was like, 2.

3) My mother's more dangerous anyways. She holds knives like they were spoons, and turns suddenly. Nearly stabbed me a dozen times in the last few years. Thus, I avoid being in the kitchen when my mom has a sharp object. Yay reflexes.

Never make jokes on Mondays.

;)

no crap. sheesh. (ducks)

I think spanking should be clearly defined. Or should it be light physical punishment? I have seen cases where spanking worked and failed and I have seen the opposite. I have a friend who refused to spank. She and her husband agreed to never spank. In this case it was a horrid mistake. I have been to their house when the child was only 6 years old and would do something wrong and innappropiate such as throw milk and food on a guest.

The child would be told gently " Now we do not do that that is inappropiate behaviour. The child soon as usual "tested" the boundry set. Which resulted in yet another warning with a " You will not get to watch so and so tv show if you do that again. Of course boundries will be tested. So the child once again disobeyed. They were told the Tv was going to be turned off. The mother promptly rose and shut off the TV to which the child went over and turned it back on. Round and round we went it is sad really.

I have also known children that got worse than spanked and it did not work either. Not sure what the right answer is I think it depends case by case and perhaps child by child. I have 3 step children and 1 child. My child I had to "spank" Slapped hand for touching things that did not belong to her after being asked to not touch them and then disobeying. I had to do that twice and that was between 2 and 4 yrs old she is 11 now.

I think after probably 5 years old spanking or physical punishment is out of the question. If you have not instilled respect and good behavior it probably is not going to happen.

In fact I rarely even have to punish my daughter at all. She is given plently of freedom but manages herself quite well.

Not sure that genetics does not play a part in it perhaps it does.

Where have you been, Markreich?! There are no such things as "right" and "wrong"!

Gee, thanks. :)

Punishment, in any way shape or form, is NOT the answer. Do we spank adults when they yell or swear? Do we take away their salaries when they won't leave the bowling alley and come home to their families?

NO!

There are simple ways to get kids to listen to you. First of all, make sure they know that you understand their needs and desires.....

...Let me just give you an example:

Say my kid was tormenting the dog. First, I would get the dog out of harm's way somehow. (Or pick up the kid and take him to his room where I would talk to him.) I would ask him something like:

"Are you feeling angry right now?"

(Let's pretend he says: ) "No"

"So you just need to play?" (remember, basic needs and feelings, not complicated ones)

"Yeah"

"Okay, I see..." (understanding, see?)"...The thing is, when I see you playing with the dog that way..." (don't accuse by saying something like "hurting the dog" in place of "playing with the dog that way". "playing with the dog a little too roughly" would be fine)"...it makes me feel upset because I know the dog doesn't like it..."(Now he knows how I feel)"...and I really need some peace right now..."(Again, basic need. Now for the big finish)"...Would you be willing to play with the dog more gently?"(The request. Remember to start it with "Would you be willing to... or "Would you be okay with...", rather than just "Would you...". Oh, and don't forget to say "Please" and "Thank you" ;) )

Punishment, in any way shape or form, is NOT the answer. Do we spank adults when they yell or swear? Do we take away their salaries when they won't leave the bowling alley and come home to their families?

NO!

There are simple ways to get kids to listen to you. First of all, make sure they know that you understand their needs and desires.....

...Let me just give you an example:

Say my kid was tormenting the dog. First, I would get the dog out of harm's way somehow. (Or pick up the kid and take him to his room where I would talk to him.) I would ask him something like:

"Are you feeling angry right now?"

(Let's pretend he says: ) "No"

"So you just need to play?" (remember, basic needs and feelings, not complicated ones)

"Yeah"

"Okay, I see..." (understanding, see?)"...The thing is, when I see you playing with the dog that way..." (don't accuse by saying something like "hurting the dog" in place of "playing with the dog that way". "playing with the dog a little too roughly" would be fine)"...it makes me feel upset because I know the dog doesn't like it..."(Now he knows how I feel)"...and I really need some peace right now..."(Again, basic need. Now for the big finish)"...Would you be willing to play with the dog more gently?"(The request. Remember to start it with "Would you be willing to... or "Would you be okay with...", rather than just "Would you...". Oh, and don't forget to say "Please" and "Thank you" ;) )

... <.< are children adults ? no... do children have the same understanding of right and wrong as adults... no.... do children nescessarly understand the consequences of their actions.... no.... and this is all reflective in law, and why we dont punish children the same way we punish adults..

How can you attempt to aproach a child to any given situation through rationality, when children dont nessesarly understand things in a rational sense (not just because they dont know, but because they are not able to lacking the proper mental development).

you say "it makes me feel upset" and you assume they know what it is to feel upset, or understand what you mean when you say "upset". You say the dog doesn't like it but the child belives the dog is having fun. You say play with the dog more gently but the child dons't understand how his actions are hurting the dog and when he or she does it again (as they naturally will) you will have to take another 20 minutes to give an explanation the child will largely not understand.

This situation may not require spanking, but im going through it to explaing to you how it is rationality may not be the god send solution you suggest it is, or is as easy as you imply.

Take for instant the story which Vangaardia present:

"The child would be told gently " Now we do not do that that is inappropiate behaviour. The child soon as usual "tested" the boundry set. Which resulted in yet another warning with a " You will not get to watch so and so tv show if you do that again. Of course boundries will be tested. So the child once again disobeyed. They were told the Tv was going to be turned off. The mother promptly rose and shut off the TV to which the child went over and turned it back on. Round and round we went it is sad really."

This is an excellent example of what can go wrong, and other tactics such as spanking could be employed here effectivly after the child continually disreguards what the parent is saying (so long as the child is warned and knows what is going to come)

Wow ... there are some misguided folks around these parts.

People who say kids should never be spanked either don't have kids or don't have kids old enough for it yet.

The ones who say it teaches violence, ask yourself if you were spanked as a child. I was. I wasn't just spanked, but sometimes, if the behaviour was bad enough, I was strapped with a belt. I grew up going to an elementary school where teachers could spank (sometimes with a nice paddle) with or without parental consent. I grew up in a time and in a place where if you seriously misbehaved and the word got out, the *neighbors* might just spank you for good measure!

Now ... that said ... I have never in my life engaged in mindless fisticuffs, but have always used my wit and charm to get out of fights. I went into the Army, but that was more family tradition than bloodlust, and I defy any of you to show any way that I am less a pacifist than Gandhi.

Yes ... spanking certainly taught me to be a violent person.

Humans cannot, I repeat: CANNOT, be quantified.

Punishment, in any way shape or form, is NOT the answer. Do we spank adults when they yell or swear? Do we take away their salaries when they won't leave the bowling alley and come home to their families?


Given how many adults are in jail, and how many are inherently not good people, maybe we *should*. :D

And actually, yes, we do garnish wages if they don't pay their child support.

I think spanking should be clearly defined. Or should it be light physical punishment? I have seen cases where spanking worked and failed and I have seen the opposite. I have a friend who refused to spank. She and her husband agreed to never spank. In this case it was a horrid mistake. I have been to their house when the child was only 6 years old and would do something wrong and innappropiate such as throw milk and food on a guest.

The child would be told gently " Now we do not do that that is inappropiate behaviour. The child soon as usual "tested" the boundry set. Which resulted in yet another warning with a " You will not get to watch so and so tv show if you do that again. Of course boundries will be tested. So the child once again disobeyed. They were told the Tv was going to be turned off. The mother promptly rose and shut off the TV to which the child went over and turned it back on. Round and round we went it is sad really.


what does this example have to do with spanking? its not spanking or NOTHING. i didnt spank my son and he NEVER threw food on guests or thought to turn the tv back on when i had turned it off.

the decision to not spank has to be followed up with an understanding of other forms of dicipline. these parents were worse than parents who spank. they raised a little brat. no wonder people support spanking when its compared to bad parents like these who do not dicipline their child in any way.

I am a mandatory child abuse reporter. I have a snazzy little certificate and everything. If I see you spank your kid, I am legally obligated to report it as child abuse.

But yeah. I will just try not to look, because I don't particularly want to get started on this topic.

sure, spank'em, it's better than a kick in the pants.

There will always be exceptions, but, on average, your best bet is non-violent methods. A kid who -requires- violence to keep them from going nuts is probably destined to go and hurt someone to begin with.

My dad's a fun example of someone who was smacked as a child. He makes comments like "I looked like a zebra".

And gee, guess what, my dad's been violent his entire life. The only reason he doesn't still hit my mom is because, when I was a tot, I stood up to him and said "Don't hurt my mommy", or so I'm told. He's an extremely intelligent man behind all the mind-fucking his mother did to him, and that appearantly got through to him. He only recently realized it was also wrong to punch horses in the face who weren't cooperating.

The closest thing I've seen to a threat-laden family leading to a nice happy person was this kid who reminded me of a rabbit. Really great guy, but his will was utterly broken. Which brings me to another point:

That whole "Respect authority" thing isn't all that healthy. The US was started by people who didn't care about authority. Art and science and literature all advanced because of people who didn't give a rat's ass about authority. There's respecting good, intelligent, kind people, but 'authority'... the master/slave relationship needs to end already.

Something I haven't seen.. what about non-violent physical restraint?

When I had to baby sit my sister, and she's be a bitch, and wouldn't just go in to the corner or whatever, I'd just catch her wrists firmly, and drag her there.

Eventually she stopped struggling and would just go in to the corner, which I'd be extremely strict about (try to be a brat in the corner, add ten minutes without blinking, etc).

As such, when my folks aren't around for her to use, she listens to me much better than she ever does with them.

Still no striking involved.

I voted no, no, and NO.

I was spanked, slapped, and kicked until I was 6. That early part of my life was hell. Doing something as trivial as spilling water on a sheet-tile floor would get my ass red. Doing something like going into a room that my dad didn't want me to be in would get my ass kicked. I was once drop-kicked into my room because my friend, Michael, persuaded me to stand in some water with him (no joke. it was about an inch of water, too. I just got my feet wet, that's all).

I have three friends who've never been slapped, spanked, hit, or kicked by their parents, and they have no problems at home or when they're "out". Everybody else I know who's been abused by their parents has at least two social problems, the two most common being anxiety and depression.

If you think raising a child is just telling them what not to do, scolding them for doing it, then beating the shit out of them, then you should not have children. This is how my dad treated me until they introduced a law against beating children in the mid-90's, which is what saved me from being abused when I started Elementary School.

If I have kids, I'm definately not going to be like my dad. I just can't stand the thought of treating a child like a dog.


"My dad's a fun example of someone who was smacked as a child. He makes comments like "I looked like a zebra".

And gee, guess what, my dad's been violent his entire life. The only reason he doesn't still hit my mom is because, when I was a tot, I stood up to him and said "Don't hurt my mommy", or so I'm told. He's an extremely intelligent man behind all the mind-fucking his mother did to him, and that appearantly got through to him. He only recently realized it was also wrong to punch horses in the face who weren't cooperating."

My dad's the same way. He really is smart behind all the psychopathic, sadistic shit he does. But he was beaten for no reason all the time when he was a kid, and he tells me how I'm "lucky to have a dad like him". I don't consider myself lucky, because instead of beating me now, he mentally abuses me. The whole not allowing me to talk back thing, as well as his "respecting authority" bullshit. He tells me stories about how bad his dad was. It's ironic, because I see the exact same person in two different bodies. And for fuck's sake, he acts like a fucking pervert when we're in the Supermarket. He rubs me and nudges me and... Ugh, I'm not gonna go any further than that. And I'm a guy, which makes that even stranger.

Once again: Abuse is not the answer. It never was, and it never will be. It's only been used by jerks who don't know how to help kids along their development paths. It seriously fucked my dad up, and it would've fucked me up if the government didn't pass laws against ruthless beatings.

That whole "Respect authority" thing isn't all that healthy. The US was started by people who didn't care about authority. Art and science and literature all advanced because of people who didn't give a rat's ass about authority. There's respecting good, intelligent, kind people.like whom?

I don't consider myself lucky, because instead of beating me now, he mentally abuses me. The whole not allowing me to talk back thing, as well as his "respecting authority" bullshit. He tells me stories about how bad his dad was. It's ironic, because I see the exact same person in two different bodies. And for fuck's sake, he acts like a fucking pervert when we're in the Supermarket. He rubs me and nudges me and... Ugh, I'm not gonna go any further than that. And I'm a guy, which makes that even stranger.
maybe your Dad is Gay.

Some actions require that the child be shown the consequences of their actions in the hope they will learn from it.

Other actions require a more physical punishment.

The real challenge is for the parent to determine which punishment fits which crime and also to never discipline out of anger.

I disagree SO much with many of you prople here. Hurting your child is wrong, because it hurts! Isn't that rather obvious? One shouldn't hurt other people, it's as simple as that - and especially not one's own children...
And some of you are talking about spanking toddlers, just little 2-3-4 year-olds... I think that's very bad indeed, and I'm sorry to read it. I don't even think it's much point in seriously thinking about "rearing" children until they're about 4 years old...

I don't agree with your "always carry out your promises (e.g. threats) no matter what!!!" principle either. If you lose your head and make a stupid threat because you don't know what else to do, it's absolutely nothing wrong in saying "I'm sorry, I didn't mean that, I was angry". Children are not stupid.

Actually I even think it's better to spank your child out of anger, if, again, you lose your head, than this cruel metered-out "punishment" that only make children confused. But, again, say you're really sorry! I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me on that one, but we all make mistakes, and losing your temper is not a mortal sin. Inflicting pain on your own children cooly and wilfully, however, might very well be.

And what's so good about "respect for authority figures", anyway? What exactly is an "authority figure"?

As for my "credentials" I was never spanked as a child. I have two kids and I have never spanked them. They are 16 and 21 and very nice people. :) My sister, who also was never spanked, doesn't spank her 3 children either. I don't know anybody who spank their children. It's just not on.

The people who voted "definitely" either don't have children or have some misguided views on how to raise children.
I very strongly agree with that.

what does this example have to do with spanking? its not spanking or NOTHING. i didnt spank my son and he NEVER threw food on guests or thought to turn the tv back on when i had turned it off.

the decision to not spank has to be followed up with an understanding of other forms of dicipline. these parents were worse than parents who spank. they raised a little brat. no wonder people support spanking when its compared to bad parents like these who do not dicipline their child in any way.



I did not suggest that spanking somehow lead to bad behaviour. I certainly hope that the ones here who would NEVER spank are prepared when their child rebels and comes to an understanding that there is really nothing mom or dad can do to stop me.

That is why the child just walked over and turned the tv back on. What was mom gonna do? If she unplugged it the kid would plug it back in. There was more than one tv in the house.

Oh and she tried to discipline the child. When children are smart and realize ultimately that you can do nothing to them they can act as they choose.

That is not the only case I know of. I know many "heathen" children that were not spanked in fact downright criminal and vice versa.

What does this show? I think it shows that each child is an individual and some need different ways of discipline. There is no one formula that is correct flexibility is the key.

Is spanking proper for some kids? Yes. No I don't have kids. Was I spanked as a kid? No. I was fucking yelled at. I would've much rather had them beat my ass (so to speak) and then STFU!

Is spanking proper for some kids? Yes. No I don't have kids. Was I spanked as a kid? No. I was fucking yelled at. I would've much rather had them beat my ass (so to speak) and then STFU!

I think screaming and yelling is FAR FAR worse and more damaging than a little smack on the hand with no sign of anger.

So are belittling insults much worse. People are tired of abuse and I do not blame them but to smack a child on the hand leaving no mark is hardly abuse.

I have seen many parents in my days, that think they were somehow above because they did not spank yet verbally assualted their children.

Will a day come when any form of discipline be considered abuse? That it is harmful to the child?

Is it just me, or do some people here not see that there is a line between spanking a child and a savage beating? It's not so black and white.


And by the comments made from some of you, since my parents hit me as a child (when it was called for, and ALWAYS open hand and across the backside) they're bad parents... sorry, no.

Of course it matters how you discipline a child but bad parents are bad parents whether they spank their child or yell at them.

I think screaming and yelling is FAR FAR worse and more damaging than a little smack on the hand with no sign of anger.

So are belittling insults much worse. People are tired of abuse and I do not blame them but to smack a child on the hand leaving no mark is hardly abuse.
..

You're damn right.

http://www.cycad.com/cgi-bin/pinc/july97/taylor-spanking.html


warm/disciplined-children will value adult approval, internalise rules and be rule abiding.
warm /permissive-children will be self-confident and socially outgoing but will frequently ignore or bend the rules-i.e. spoiled but affable
cold/disciplined-children will be anxious and sullen but compliant. their anger will be turned in on themselves. If the parents are religious they will reject their parents' religion.
cold/permissive-children will be hostile and rule-defying, with a high probability of delinquency.

I think screaming and yelling is FAR FAR worse and more damaging than a little smack on the hand with no sign of anger.

So are belittling insults much worse. People are tired of abuse and I do not blame them but to smack a child on the hand leaving no mark is hardly abuse.

I have seen many parents in my days, that think they were somehow above because they did not spank yet verbally assualted their children.

Will a day come when any form of discipline be considered abuse? That it is harmful to the child?
Agreed ... I dont even remember the (very) few times I got spanked as a tike ... I do remember the yelling though

I think screaming and yelling is FAR FAR worse and more damaging than a little smack on the hand with no sign of anger.

So are belittling insults much worse. People are tired of abuse and I do not blame them but to smack a child on the hand leaving no mark is hardly abuse.

I absolutely agree with you, and this is something that kind of gets lost in the all or nothing argument. You can do much more damage this way...my dad used to stomp around the house, slamming doors and muttering to himself when he was upset, and even though it wasn't directed at us kids, it made us nervous and uncertain when he was around. When I catch myself doing the same thing I just want to kick my own ass. When my husband does it, that little switch in my brain labelled 'reason' gets switched off, and I lose it...I don't want to be married to someone like my dad. I love him, but he didn't know how to not involve us in his bad moods, and that is something I don't want my own kids EVER worrying about.

I absolutely agree with you, and this is something that kind of gets lost in the all or nothing argument. You can do much more damage this way...my dad used to stomp around the house, slamming doors and muttering to himself when he was upset, and even though it wasn't directed at us kids, it made us nervous and uncertain when he was around. When I catch myself doing the same thing I just want to kick my own ass. When my husband does it, that little switch in my brain labelled 'reason' gets switched off, and I lose it...I don't want to be married to someone like my dad. I love him, but he didn't know how to not involve us in his bad moods, and that is something I don't want my own kids EVER worrying about.
I was more yelled at … my rents were yellers
Though my dad is one of those people that takes him awhile to push past the point and he cools down REALLY quickly so it was not so bad we all knew he would go out into the workshop and be back to good ol dad in 10 minuets lol (but when you did push him that far man can that man yell lol)

My answer is a resounding yes. The reason we have so many hoodlums, brats, and gangsters today is because parents are chickenshits, and refuse to administer proper discipline, giving their offspring the impression that their behavior is okay, and that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

Any punishment/discipline delivered out of anger or frustration is already a failure. It socializes children to believe that it is okay for adults to react out of anger when they are frustrated and has little to do with correcting antecedant behavior. The child learns, "don't make dad mad" rather than "beating up my sister is something that is wrong".

Punishment/discipline should always be a measured, consistant response to a specific behavior and should be an expected response. The child should know before hand what the consequences of bad behavior will be. That can't be done for every possible thing a child may do, but it should work the vast majority of the time.

If you are punishing/disciplining out of frustration or anger you are essentially asking your child to do something you aren't able to do yourself... exersize self-control. If you want a child to learn self-control it needs to be modeled by the parent first.

Any punishment/discipline delivered out of anger or frustration is already a failure. It socializes children to believe that it is okay for adults to react out of anger when they are frustrated and has little to do with correcting antecedant behavior. The child learns, "don't make dad mad" rather than "beating up my sister is something that is wrong".

Punishment/discipline should always be a measured, consistant response to a specific behavior and should be an expected response. The child should know before hand what the consequences of bad behavior will be. That can't be done for every possible thing a child may do, but it should work the vast majority of the time.

If you are punishing/disciplining out of frustration or anger you are essentially asking your child to do something you aren't able to do yourself... exersize self-control. If you want a child to learn self-control it needs to be modeled by the parent first.

You're 100% right! Thank goodness they don't see violence on TV or in movies or video games or anything...

:rolleyes:

You're 100% right! Thank goodness they don't see violence on TV or in movies or video games or anything...

:rolleyes:
Seeing violence and being a victim of un-necessary anger and pain are two separate things

Seeing violence and being a victim of un-necessary anger and pain are two separate things

I'm amazed at how (and I forgot who said it first, sorry) some folks can't distinguish between a spanking and a beating.

Again: when your kid pushes another kid down a flight of stairs, it is NOT a "time-out" situation.

I did not suggest that spanking somehow lead to bad behaviour. I certainly hope that the ones here who would NEVER spank are prepared when their child rebels and comes to an understanding that there is really nothing mom or dad can do to stop me.

That is why the child just walked over and turned the tv back on. What was mom gonna do? If she unplugged it the kid would plug it back in. There was more than one tv in the house.

Oh and she tried to discipline the child. When children are smart and realize ultimately that you can do nothing to them they can act as they choose.

That is not the only case I know of. I know many "heathen" children that were not spanked in fact downright criminal and vice versa.

What does this show? I think it shows that each child is an individual and some need different ways of discipline. There is no one formula that is correct flexibility is the key.

you dont think that a child can be spanked then walk right over to the TV and turn it back on?

there was plenty that those parents could have done. they either didnt know how to deal with their kid or were too lazy to get up and deal with him.

there is NO child who needs to be spanked. it is NEVER the best form of dicipline no matter what the offense. sure its not the worst thing and in most cases doesnt do permanent harm but its never a really good choice.

kids grow up to be good people in spite of spanking not because of it.

I'm amazed at how (and I forgot who said it first, sorry) some folks can't distinguish between a spanking and a beating.

Again: when your kid pushes another kid down a flight of stairs, it is NOT a "time-out" situation.
Some yes ... but what most people say is a LAST resort ...

again people who see themselfs as for spanking generaly hear "SPANKING===BEATINGGGGG!!!!" when someone is really trying to say something more along the line of "it should be a last resort but optional"

And on the other side people who see themselfs as against spanking in general hear "IT IS MY RIGHT TO HIT MY KIDSSS!!!1!1!! THAT WILL LEARN THEM" when the person is just saying "spanking should be an option"

Really this is a touchy topic where people can not seem to see what the others are saying

I'm amazed at how (and I forgot who said it first, sorry) some folks can't distinguish between a spanking and a beating.

Again: when your kid pushes another kid down a flight of stairs, it is NOT a "time-out" situation.


I don't think he was suggesting that spanking is never an option. It is just not one that should be administered in anger.

You're point about television is well taken. If you don't what your child to see violence, which does contribute to the likelihood of them perpratrating violence btw, don't let them watch it. Don't watch it yourself. Turn of the TV or don't have one at all. As UT said, seeing violence and experiencing anger from a parent are two seperate issues but both can contribute to raising a violent person.

When kids are young, like, before age 7 or 8, the part of their brains that deal with understanding abstractions and consequences and morals isn't developed yet. You spank them because that's all they understand. They don't understood good or bad, they understand good and pain.

kids grow up to be good people in spite of spanking not because of it.

Spanking is not always the best option, but it is sometimes the best option. Four of the five spankings I received as a child I deserved and learned very positive lessons from that I may not have learned any other way. The other one, was a beating and it wasn't administered by my parents and was done out of anger and is the only one I say I am good in spite of. The others I grew up to be a good person because of though there were definitely other contributing factors as well.

To say spanking is never the best option is just the latest Pop Psych. gobble de gook.

I don't think he was suggesting that spanking is never an option. It is just not one that should be administered in anger.

You're point about television is well taken. If you don't what your child to see violence, which does contribute to the likelihood of them perpratrating violence btw, don't let them watch it. Don't watch it yourself. Turn of the TV or don't have one at all. As UT said, seeing violence and experiencing anger from a parent are two seperate issues but both can contribute to raising a violent person.

I disagree. If an adult is justifyably angry, the child is more likely to *remember* the spanking. (IE, in the afforementioned pushing the other child down the stairs example.)

Yep. Yet, I see parents take kids to movies that they have no reason to be at. 6 year olds do not belong at The Ring.

I disagree. If an adult is justifyably angry, the child is more likely to *remember* the spanking. (IE, in the afforementioned pushing the other child down the stairs example.)

Yep. Yet, I see parents take kids to movies that they have no reason to be at. 6 year olds do not belong at The Ring.
There is a difference between being angry ... and acting out of anger ... BIG difference

What? spanking children? :(

I will hit you back, you know. :cool:

there is NO child who needs to be spanked. it is NEVER the best form of dicipline no matter what the offense. sure its not the worst thing and in most cases doesnt do permanent harm but its never a really good choice.

kids grow up to be good people in spite of spanking not because of it.

Actually, the quickest, and most efficient way, to form a new 'pathway', ESPECIALLY in a young brain, is through Algetic Conditioning.

Literally, the best and quickest paths are formed as pain responses.

So - in very real terms, a 'spank' CAN be the 'best' form of discipline.

Of course - it depends on your definitions.

A parent who hospitalises their child wasn't 'spanking' him/her.

Actually, the quickest, and most efficient way, to form a new 'pathway', ESPECIALLY in a young brain, is through Algetic Conditioning.

Literally, the best and quickest paths are formed as pain responses.

So - in very real terms, a 'spank' CAN be the 'best' form of discipline.

Of course - it depends on your definitions.

A parent who hospitalises their child wasn't 'spanking' him/her.

Wait! stop! hold the presses! We agree on something... and without a debate first... hurrah!!! ;) :p :fluffle: :D

Since when does fast=good?

I disagree. If an adult is justifyably angry, the child is more likely to *remember* the spanking. (IE, in the afforementioned pushing the other child down the stairs example.)

Yep. Yet, I see parents take kids to movies that they have no reason to be at. 6 year olds do not belong at The Ring.

You're entitled to disagree, but as I said before, in the "angery" response, the child learns that it is acceptable to respond violently when angered and that is parental example that is be set. It also conditions a child to believe God is just an angry Father just waiting to zap you if you anger Him as a parent is God's representative to a child during his/her formative years. If that is the message you want to send, it is your prerogative as a parent, but I'd recommend a different path.

When kids are young, like, before age 7 or 8, the part of their brains that deal with understanding abstractions and consequences and morals isn't developed yet. You spank them because that's all they understand. They don't understood good or bad, they understand good and pain.

So, wait, you're saying I was a freak as a kid too?

It's not FULLY developed, certainly, but it's not non-existant.

Since when does fast=good?

When you're in a race :p ;)

Since when does fast=good?
Because forming the correct associative pathway early before other pathways get linked is important

Since when does fast=good?

It doesn't AUTOMATICALLY equate to good... which is why I also included the word 'best' in there.

It wasn't very well hidden.

But - assuming this WASN'T just cheap sniping (as it appeared)... well, how about when a child is ABOUT to step into fast-moving traffic?

Wait! stop! hold the presses! We agree on something... and without a debate first... hurrah!!! ;) :p :fluffle: :D

Come on.. it HAD to happen SOONER OR LATER... :):):)

Because forming the correct associative pathway early before other pathways get linked is important

Very good point.

Behavioural patterns are learned.

Set a good pattern up, and it is much harder to overlay a bad pattern over it.

Excellent point. Full marks for UpwardThrust.

Very good point.

Behavioural patterns are learned.

Set a good pattern up, and it is much harder to overlay a bad pattern over it.

Excellent point. Full marks for UpwardThrust.
:) Yup "un-learning" an established behavior is usualy harder then it being learned correctly the first time

It doesn't AUTOMATICALLY equate to good... which is why I also included the word 'best' in there.

It wasn't very well hidden.

But - assuming this WASN'T just cheap sniping (as it appeared)... well, how about when a child is ABOUT to step into fast-moving traffic?

Fast learning is like cramming before a test. Will you pass the test the next day? Sure. Will you have actually learned anything useful? Rarely.

It's not sniping, its a matter of having no evidence of relation. You have to show that Fast=Good to make your argument for "Best".

It may take a minute of spankings to scare a kid away from going near the street. But if you do what you can to show the child that "Big, fast objects can be unfun.", then not only do you teach them to avoid the street, but you may save them from OTHER encounters with large squish-causing objects, (such as large animals) or vehicles that aren't on the street.

Very good point.

Behavioural patterns are learned.

Set a good pattern up, and it is much harder to overlay a bad pattern over it.

Excellent point. Full marks for UpwardThrust.

You'd think he was studying Skinnerian B-Mod. or something. And yes, it was well said. It's nice to be on the same side of an argument with you two... or at least a lot easier. You're both to smart for your britches, as my mom used to say. :p ;) :fluffle:

Fast learning is like cramming before a test. Will you pass the test the next day? Sure. Will you have actually learned anything useful? Rarely.

It's not sniping, its a matter of having no evidence of relation. You have to show that Fast=Good to make your argument for "Best".

It may take a minute of spankings to scare a kid away from going near the street. But if you do what you can to show the child that "Big, fast objects can be unfun.", then not only do you teach them to avoid the street, but you may save them from OTHER encounters with large squish-causing objects, (such as large animals) or vehicles that aren't on the street.

Again, their not saying that spanking is the only tool in the parental teaching bag, just one the that work best in specific situations. NOT ALL SITUATIONS!

You'd think he was studying Skinnerian B-Mod. or something. And yes, it was well said. It's nice to be on the same side of an argument with you two... or at least a lot easier. You're both to smart for your britches, as my mom used to say. :p ;) :fluffle:

Actually - it's our patented 'double-team' move that's the real threat.

Yes - it IS nice to be (formally) on the same team, for once :)

:p ;) :fluffle:

Fast learning is like cramming before a test. Will you pass the test the next day? Sure. Will you have actually learned anything useful? Rarely.

It's not sniping, its a matter of having no evidence of relation. You have to show that Fast=Good to make your argument for "Best".

It may take a minute of spankings to scare a kid away from going near the street. But if you do what you can to show the child that "Big, fast objects can be unfun.", then not only do you teach them to avoid the street, but you may save them from OTHER encounters with large squish-causing objects, (such as large animals) or vehicles that aren't on the street.

You don't listen, do you?

Alegtic Conditioning is often the fastest AND best method of forming a response arc.

Not the only one, mind... but OFTEN the fastest AND best.

Also - i didn't say fastest = best... although, obviously, sometimes it is.

Finally - I have to say... I assume you have no children.

Look back over my point... the child is ABOUT to step into fast-moving traffic...

If you think THAT is the time to start talking to a child about un-fun behaviour.... well, you'd best be thinking what you are going to wear to the funeral.

SOMETIMES, fast IS important.

Actually - it's our patented 'double-team' move that's the real threat.

Yes - it IS nice to be (formally) on the same team, for once :)

:p ;) :fluffle:

Unfortunately, I don't get to stick around long enough to enjoy it much. I have to go back to my real job. :rolleyes: Actaully, most of the time I like it.

At least I can leave knowing this issue is in good hand. Don't hurt um too bad you two. ;)

Spanking is always wrong.

The Bible says you're supposed to use a stick to beat your kids.

warm/disciplined-children will value adult approval, internalise rules and be rule abiding.

Excuse me? "Will Value Adult Approval" basically means said child will be a tool. This whole thing is about turning your child into a fucking mindless idiot.

warm /permissive-children will be self-confident and socially outgoing but will frequently ignore or bend the rules-i.e. spoiled but affable

"Frequently Bend The Rules" Oh, so thinking for yourself is bending the rules now, is it? And wanting what you want on a hamburger instead of having the same damn thing is being spoiled? Once again, this is complete and utter bullshit.

cold/disciplined-children will be anxious and sullen but compliant. their anger will be turned in on themselves. If the parents are religious they will reject their parents' religion.

This is if the kids are beaten into complete submission, usually along with being taught extremely right-wing religious bullshit. This happened to my friends, Michael and Joe. It's a very sad sight for anybody.

cold/permissive-children will be hostile and rule-defying, with a high probability of delinquency.

This is what happens when your parents beat you for no reason, don't raise you, and don't talk to you. If you keep a cool head, you'll come out okay, but if you're really messed up from the beatings and bullshit, then there's not much you can do.

Unfortunately, I don't get to stick around long enough to enjoy it much. I have to go back to my real job. :rolleyes: Actaully, most of the time I like it.

At least I can leave knowing this issue is in good hand. Don't hurt um too bad you two. ;)

We'll TRY to be nice... :)

I know what you mean though... sleep beckons, for another nightshift tonight... bah. :(

You're entitled to disagree, but as I said before, in the "angery" response, the child learns that it is acceptable to respond violently when angered and that is parental example that is be set. It also conditions a child to believe God is just an angry Father just waiting to zap you if you anger Him as a parent is God's representative to a child during his/her formative years. If that is the message you want to send, it is your prerogative as a parent, but I'd recommend a different path.

Thanks. Since I'm (myself) not a voilent person, I disagree. Spanking should be rare, at best, but I just don't see it as being The Worst Thing Since Seal Clubbing. (Which, I know is extreme, but seems how it's being portrayed in *some* posts in this thread.)

Not sure about the leap to the God thing, but whatever floats your boat...

Since when does fast=good?


Mayby I'm just a stupid Swede, but isn't that a bit like the american way?

As I mentioned before spanking has been banned in Sweden for a long time, and kids still don't go around getting hit by cars anymore then any other country. Or any other thing that kids appernetly do today in USA when they are not spanked...

Does that mean that Swedes have genes to be better behaved? Or are Swedes better parents? Or is it that the parents have had to develop other ways to discipline thier childs which works as good (perhaps better) as spanking?

Learn how to spell "definitely"
Great, a Spelling Nazi. :rolleyes:

Spanking is VERY effective on some children and is necessary. Spaking is not effective on some children and is a complete waste and only serves to demonize the parent. In other words, you can't apply the same discipline to every child and get the same results. Imagine that!

You don't listen, do you?

Alegtic Conditioning is often the fastest AND best method of forming a response arc.

Not the only one, mind... but OFTEN the fastest AND best.

Also - i didn't say fastest = best... although, obviously, sometimes it is.

Finally - I have to say... I assume you have no children.

Look back over my point... the child is ABOUT to step into fast-moving traffic...

If you think THAT is the time to start talking to a child about un-fun behaviour.... well, you'd best be thinking what you are going to wear to the funeral.

SOMETIMES, fast IS important.

You don't THINK, do you?

If you teach limited responses, you have to teach MORE responses. If you teach broad responses, the kid, assuming it's not an idiot, can form a response when you aren't looking (not that you ever shouldn't be at a younger age).

Your 'best' is utterly subjective. The whole ass concept of trial through error is how children get killed. Teach -wisdom-. Teach a child in a manner that they can apply things to a broader series of issues.

What's more useful? Teaching a kid not to touch things that they aren't sure about, or just not touch heating coils? Teaching a kid to avoid roads, or to avoid large objects that can crush them?

As for kids, no, I don't feel it's moral for me to put kids in a world run by jackasses who consider violence a means of solving everything. I do, however, have a sister nine years younger than me, whom I spent a great deal of time helping to raise, since my dad was out of town working.

Yes. About to step in to traffic. So you HIT them.

That makes sense.

Or, you know, you can grab them and NOT hit them. Then show them exactly how scary large, fast-moving objects are by demonstration. Get a watermelon or something, go in to the drive way, and run it over in front of the kid. Make it a stuffed animal. Do it SLOW, as well, so they know that cars are always dangerous. Act like YOU get hurt by it. Do the same with car doors being slammed. Demonstrate. Put effort in to it.

It's also a mode of learning that a kid can KEEP on them.

Hell, my little sister, when my parents were around, was in a very fast-paced situation. My folks didn't have time for her. So they spanked her readily. She just adapted, and could ignore or shrug off their spankings by the time she was five. She has zero respect for them unless they're right in front of her, threatening her physically, and she'll even ignore them THEN.

I, on the other hand, was given more normal, direct raising for my earlier years. I was taught with less haste. As a result, I developed enough empathy and logic to alter family dynamics a great deal at an early age. I developed -fast- because I was taught SLOW. Was I spanked sometimes? Yes. A very few. In its entirity, it had the effect that I cannot respect my parents as equals.

Aesop had his statement on haste...
And there was a man who was taught how to fish rather than just fed one...

And if that's too much of a waste of time to bother with, you shouldn't be reproducing.

Again, their not saying that spanking is the only tool in the parental teaching bag, just one the that work best in specific situations. NOT ALL SITUATIONS!

Show me one situation aside from the child physically assaulting someone where physically assaulting them has any use for someone who should actually be reproducing?

--

I will say this. I am no longer surprised that BDSM is all over the place.

You don't THINK, do you?

If you teach limited responses, you have to teach MORE responses. If you teach broad responses, the kid, assuming it's not an idiot, can form a response when you aren't looking (not that you ever shouldn't be at a younger age).

Your 'best' is utterly subjective. The whole ass concept of trial through error is how children get killed. Teach -wisdom-. Teach a child in a manner that they can apply things to a broader series of issues.

What's more useful? Teaching a kid not to touch things that they aren't sure about, or just not touch heating coils? Teaching a kid to avoid roads, or to avoid large objects that can crush them?

As for kids, no, I don't feel it's moral for me to put kids in a world run by jackasses who consider violence a means of solving everything. I do, however, have a sister nine years younger than me, whom I spent a great deal of time helping to raise, since my dad was out of town working.

Yes. About to step in to traffic. So you HIT them.

That makes sense.

Or, you know, you can grab them and NOT hit them. Then show them exactly how scary large, fast-moving objects are by demonstration. Get a watermelon or something, go in to the drive way, and run it over in front of the kid. Make it a stuffed animal. Do it SLOW, as well, so they know that cars are always dangerous. Act like YOU get hurt by it. Do the same with car doors being slammed. Demonstrate. Put effort in to it.

It's also a mode of learning that a kid can KEEP on them.

Hell, my little sister, when my parents were around, was in a very fast-paced situation. My folks didn't have time for her. So they spanked her readily. She just adapted, and could ignore or shrug off their spankings by the time she was five. She has zero respect for them unless they're right in front of her, threatening her physically, and she'll even ignore them THEN.

I, on the other hand, was given more normal, direct raising for my earlier years. I was taught with less haste. As a result, I developed enough empathy and logic to alter family dynamics a great deal at an early age. I developed -fast- because I was taught SLOW. Was I spanked sometimes? Yes. A very few. In its entirity, it had the effect that I cannot respect my parents as equals.

Aesop had his statement on haste...
And there was a man who was taught how to fish rather than just fed one...

And if that's too much of a waste of time to bother with, you shouldn't be reproducing.

You need to watch your mouth, friend... I consider that last line dangerously close to flaming... and I am ONLY restraining myself from reporting you directly, because I wish to respond to your post.

Be warned.

Act like that again, I'll be taking you directly before the Mods.


Reference to your post. First: 'Hitting' a child, and 'spanking' a child, are two different words, with very different connotations. Do I consider a short sharp slap to the bottom to be a spank...? yes. Is it hitting? Not in the 'conventional sense, no.

What about a punch to the face? Would that be spanking? Obviously not. That would be hitting... which is NOT what I have advocated... and neither has anyone else.

You should control your flame bait terminology, perhaps.

Second: You have no children... so I don't REALLY see what you are even doing in a discussion about child discipline. You are kind of like the eunuch at a Tantric Sex discussion group...

Third: I appreciate that children are taught to learn. That you teach them up front, to better prepare them to deal with unexpected circumstances. Do not patronise me. That is why my daughter was able to discuss concepts like parralax effects, and perspective, at age 4.

However... the illustration I used above - the child about to step into traffic... THAT is an occasion where discussion isn't going to work... if the child IS stepping into traffic, there is OBVIOUSLY some lack of a connection being made. Hopefully it won't happen, yes? Of course... and you try to teach your child how to be safe in ANY situation... but sometimes, it isn't enough... and sometimes, that situation might already exist... as in the example above... and you might ONLY have time to RESPOND.

Saying what you 'might have done' beforehand is redundent, in the face of an impending RTA, yes?

Fourth: I find it patronising and insulting that someone who has NO children, is giving parenting lessons to me. Get over yourself, please.

Fifth: Did someone else here suggest you let children learn purely through Trial and Error? I know I didn't... so I wonder who you were responding to?

As far as I know, nobody here has suggested spanking as THE answer, or the BEST ALL-ROUND answer. I educate up-front, as much as is possible... but will spank if it is necessary. The upshot of that is that my daughter has been 'spanked'... maybe a dozen times... and not within the last... I don't know... a year, maybe?

Sixth: Algetic Conditioning is a recognised learning mechanism... and forms very clear, very direct and very lasting, educational connections within the brain. A child that is burned ONCE very quickly learns not to touch the fire... not that I am advising the burning of children... just showing an example of a NATURAL Algetic Conditioned response.

Seventh: I find it very sad that your response to a mature discussion about an issue as important as child discipline, was as arrogant and dismissive as: "I don't feel it's moral for me to put kids in a world run by jackasses who consider violence a means of solving everything".

Thanks for your time.

Please refrain from further flaming and direct antagonism.

I come here to debate, not to be abused by someone who hasn't even any experience in the discussion at hand.

Show me one situation aside from the child physically assaulting someone where physically assaulting them has any use for someone who should actually be reproducing?



More inflammatory verbiage?

"Physically assaulting" the child?

Do you describe nail-biting as Nervous Cannibalism?

More inflammatory verbiage?

"Physically assaulting" the child?

Do you describe nail-biting as Nervous Cannibalism?
I do :rolleyes:

I do :rolleyes:

:)

:)
:fluffle: :fluffle:

You need to watch your mouth, friend... I consider that last line dangerously close to flaming... and I am ONLY restraining myself from reporting you directly, because I wish to respond to your post.

Be warned.

Act like that again, I'll be taking you directly before the Mods.


Trying to have me spanked? :D

It was generalized 'you', not a personal one. I don't feel that anyone who doesn't have LOTS of time to watch and train their kid should reproduce. If that's flaming, so is ANY opinion.


Reference to your post. First: 'Hitting' a child, and 'spanking' a child, are two different words, with very different connotations. Do I consider a short sharp slap to the bottom to be a spank...? yes. Is it hitting? Not in the 'conventional sense, no.


It is a sharp impact. If I drop a bottle cap and it bounces off of a trash can, the bottle cap has 'hit' or 'struck' it. If I wrote "Crushing blow", you'd have a point. Right now you're just begging for euphemisms.


What about a punch to the face? Would that be spanking? Obviously not. That would be hitting... which is NOT what I have advocated... and neither has anyone else.


All hitting requires is impact.

When -I- think spank I think "naughty kink". I, however, am able to say to myself "No, he's not talking about fun spankings." Not that hard.


You should control your flame bait terminology, perhaps.


You should control your habit of threatening others who do not follow the behavior you desire.


Second: You have no children... so I don't REALLY see what you are even doing in a discussion about child discipline. You are kind of like the eunuch at a Tantric Sex discussion group...


I'm not black, should I not have the opinion of "Don't shoot black people in the face at random"? I helped RAISE a child. The fact that I didn't aim my DNA at anyone to do so hardly negates my experience.


Third: I appreciate that children are taught to learn. That you teach them up front, to better prepare them to deal with unexpected circumstances. Do not patronise me. That is why my daughter was able to discuss concepts like parralax effects, and perspective, at age 4.


Yep. Kids are smarter than most people give them credit for. Most people don't take the time to find out.


However... the illustration I used above - the child about to step into traffic... THAT is an occasion where discussion isn't going to work... if the child IS stepping into traffic, there is OBVIOUSLY some lack of a connection being made. Hopefully it won't happen, yes? Of course... and you try to teach your child how to be safe in ANY situation... but sometimes, it isn't enough... and sometimes, that situation might already exist... as in the example above... and you might ONLY have time to RESPOND.


Your statement suggests that spanking a kid will instantly make them traffic-wise. You have to teach them the whole 'look both ways, and don't walk across the street without mom or dad' thing. All spanking does is say "Some action you have done is to be avoided." It doesn't inform them what that is, it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't provide for WHAT that is. I've seen kids, under that method, run in to the street as soon as their parent stepped down in it. The spank only managed to communicate "Don't step off the curb on your own."


Saying what you 'might have done' beforehand is redundent, in the face of an impending RTA, yes?


Spanking doesn't provide a mystical glimpse in to the future.


Fourth: I find it patronising and insulting that someone who has NO children, is giving parenting lessons to me. Get over yourself, please.


You find it patronising? I find your statement hypocritical. You're the one with the whole uppity pride thing. So you squirted DNA. Good for you. That automatically makes you a more capable raiser of that DNA's result. Right. That's why we have social workers.


Fifth: Did someone else here suggest you let children learn purely through Trial and Error? I know I didn't... so I wonder who you were responding to?


Spanking is based on a trial/error situation. Its about as bad as always using rewards. You need to teach a child to do things for logical reasons, not emotional, reactionary reasons, because when they get smart enough to avoid punishment, or the rewards become unavailable, there's no longer anything holding them back.


As far as I know, nobody here has suggested spanking as THE answer, or the BEST ALL-ROUND answer. I educate up-front, as much as is possible... but will spank if it is necessary. The upshot of that is that my daughter has been 'spanked'... maybe a dozen times... and not within the last... I don't know... a year, maybe?


And what do you presume shows that your spanking had any benefit that education doesn't provide?


Sixth: Algetic Conditioning is a recognised learning mechanism... and forms very clear, very direct and very lasting, educational connections within the brain. A child that is burned ONCE very quickly learns not to touch the fire... not that I am advising the burning of children... just showing an example of a NATURAL Algetic Conditioned response.


Yes. Pain response is very popular in prisons, during wars, in brain washing of various sorts, etc. Trial and error will HAPPEN. You don't have to fall to it on PURPOSE, however.


Seventh: I find it very sad that your response to a mature discussion about an issue as important as child discipline, was as arrogant and dismissive as: "I don't feel it's moral for me to put kids in a world run by jackasses who consider violence a means of solving everything".


Gee, I'm sorry I was honest, obviously I wasn't spanked in to submission enough.

I don't feel that it's moral for me to force another human being in to a world full of hatred, violence, and oppression. I consider Bush, Blair, the terrorist groups, the tyrants in Africa, the racist/sexist/culturist/religionist groups, etc etc, to be a whole herd of jackasses. All of them work through violent means to try and train others to respond in a way they prefer, when they're not trying to outright kill them. Is that honestly so difficult to understand?


Thanks for your time.

Please refrain from further flaming and direct antagonism.

I come here to debate, not to be abused by someone who hasn't even any experience in the discussion at hand.

From the looks of it, you're too busy trying to make people shut up to stick to your argumentation.

If you can't argue wholly based on the argument, and instead have to make threats and try to scare people away, it doesn't really help your position. Its also readily associatable with the mindset that I -feel- is required to use spanking for something like traffic issues.

And so you don't start on the whole woe is me, mods, save me from dissenters thing:

It's fairly logical. People who use one strategy in one area of their life often tend to use it in other areas. You are comfortable in using punsihment and threats of punishment in place of solid discussion. It may not be your PRIMARY mode of operation, but you are COMFORTABLE with it. At present, you are threatening me with punishment (As I mused above, a 'spanking'). It will not be a serious blow to be, but it will 'put the fear' in to me, and dissuade me from arguing with you further, no matter how valid I feel my points are. In doing so, you squash dissenting opinion, and will assume 'victory', albeit in the same way as tyrant democracies do (scaring off rivals and so forth).

Your behavior merely convinces me further that spanking is psychologically unhealthy, appearantly for both the child AND the parent, because it has seemingly led to this behavior on your part.

Mayby I'm just a stupid Swede, but isn't that a bit like the american way?

As I mentioned before spanking has been banned in Sweden for a long time, and kids still don't go around getting hit by cars anymore then any other country. Or any other thing that kids appernetly do today in USA when they are not spanked...

Does that mean that Swedes have genes to be better behaved? Or are Swedes better parents? Or is it that the parents have had to develop other ways to discipline thier childs which works as good (perhaps better) as spanking?


Though I have no actual experience with Swedish parents, I would say it is entirely likely that they are far better parents than the average U.S. parent. I'd bet money that they actually spend more than 5 mins. a day talking to their kids.

Is that I bet I could *easily* find a hundred people here on Madison Avenue, NYC that actually *pay* to be spanked... ;)

Show me one situation aside from the child physically assaulting someone where physically assaulting them has any use for someone who should actually be reproducing?

--

I will say this. I am no longer surprised that BDSM is all over the place.

From my own experience I'll give you a couple of instances that worked very well.

First, My mom and dad were leaving us with a babysitter for the first time overnight. They told us, if you give him a hard time and don't go to bed when you are told at your regular bed time you will receive a spanking when we get home.

Being the oldest, I decided to test this and gave the babysitter such a hard time he didn't quite know what to do.

Sure enough my parents came home and received the report on my misbehavior. My dad said, we'll talk about this another day. So, for a good day an a half I anticipated what was coming and wished for everything that I hadn't given the babysitter such a hard time. The spanking was entirely none injurous, but the process was something I never forgot and never again gave a babysitter such fits.

Second, I had hit my sister or actually we had hit each other, though with no injuries to either of us. My mother sent me to my room and came up to spank me a little while later. During the interim I put on about 5 pairs of underware and somehow my mom didn't notice. The spanking didn't hurt. Now if I'd have been a smart kid, I'd have kept my mouth shut, but I went bragging to my sibs about what I had done. My mom was quickly told what I had done and sent me back to my room. She gave me the spanking I deserved and it gave me something to remember about not hitting my sister which worked fairly well there after. But when my mom gave me the spanking, the second time, she came in crying and said to me, "I can't believe you're making me do this to you again. I hate this. Please don't ever make me do this again." That was the last spanking I ever received except a beating from my grandfather I didn't deserve that was truly abusive. I learned that I didn't ever want to do something that would put my mom in a position where she had to do something that would make her cry and it colored my behavior for the rest of my life.

You will probably argue that this could have been done another way, but I doubt any form of punishment would have so moved my mother to tears or have created such a lasting memory. You can dis spanking all you want. What I know, with out a doubt, is that it worked for me.

You are comfortable in using punsihment and threats of punishment in place of solid discussion. It may not be your PRIMARY mode of operation, but you are COMFORTABLE with it. At present, you are threatening me with punishment (As I mused above, a 'spanking'). It will not be a serious blow to be, but it will 'put the fear' in to me, and dissuade me from arguing with you further, no matter how valid I feel my points are. In doing so, you squash dissenting opinion, and will assume 'victory', albeit in the same way as tyrant democracies do (scaring off rivals and so forth).

Your behavior merely convinces me further that spanking is psychologically unhealthy, appearantly for both the child AND the parent, because it has seemingly led to this behavior on your part. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know GI too well to make statements like that. He is perfectly capable of discussion and reason and uses both very well. You just don't like what he has to say.

I do :rolleyes:

LOL You crack me up UT. That was priceless. Excuse me while I participate in some nervous cannabilism please... :p

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know GI too well to make statements like that. He is perfectly capable of discussion and reason and uses both very well. You just don't like what he has to say.

I honestly don't care how he behaves elsewhere. On THIS thread, he's being very defensive ("Don't patronize me"), and is using threats in place of argument ("mods").

I came here for discussion, not school yard politics. (Teacher teacher, I'm being oppressed!).

Argument by threat isn't useful.

I honestly don't care how he behaves elsewhere. On THIS thread, he's being very defensive ("Don't patronize me"), and is using threats in place of argument ("mods").

I came here for discussion, not school yard politics. (Teacher teacher, I'm being oppressed!).

Argument by threat isn't useful.

Neither is argument by insult. (comments about not thinking and not reproducing are particularly noteable as offensive and flamebaiting)

From my own experience I'll give you a couple of instances that worked very well.


Now, I'll note, I'm not saying spanking doesn't work. I merely contend that it's on the low end of methods, as well as morally questionable using my personal moral code. Threat/reward works to an extent, but every psychology book I've seen show that it has side effects, and isn't as effective in the long term.


First, My mom and dad were leaving us with a babysitter for the first time overnight. They told us, if you give him a hard time and don't go to bed when you are told at your regular bed time you will receive a spanking when we get home.


Okay, here's the thing. Why did they pick 'spanking' instead of any other form of punishment? Did they explain the babysitter's feelings, aka, guilt trip?


Being the oldest, I decided to test this and gave the babysitter such a hard time he didn't quite know what to do.


Had your parents ever spanked you for acting like that before?


Sure enough my parents came home and received the report on my misbehavior. My dad said, we'll talk about this another day. So, for a good day an a half I anticipated what was coming and wished for everything that I hadn't given the babysitter such a hard time. The spanking was entirely none injurous, but the process was something I never forgot and never again gave a babysitter such fits.


Yes, the 'make them wet themselves' thing does work. But it also works for other methods. Consider if it was taking something fun away, or giving you chores. You may well have spent a day worrying over what toys you'd lose, what chores you'd do, etc.


Second, I had hit my sister or actually we had hit each other, though with no injuries to either of us. My mother sent me to my room and came up to spank me a little while later. During the interim I put on about 5 pairs of underware and somehow my mom didn't notice. The spanking didn't hurt. Now if I'd have been a smart kid, I'd have kept my mouth shut, but I went bragging to my sibs about what I had done. My mom was quickly told what I had done and sent me back to my room. She gave me the spanking I deserved and it gave me something to remember about not hitting my sister which worked fairly well there after. But when my mom gave me the spanking, the second time, she came in crying and said to me, "I can't believe you're making me do this to you again. I hate this. Please don't ever make me do this again." That was the last spanking I ever received except a beating from my grandfather I didn't deserve that was truly abusive. I learned that I didn't ever want to do something that would put my mom in a position where she had to do something that would make her cry and it colored my behavior for the rest of my life.


Now, consider. What made you change. That your mother spanked you, or that you saw how upset she was to do so? Empathy is a POWERFUL learning tool.


You will probably argue that this could have been done another way, but I doubt any form of punishment would have so moved my mother to tears or have created such a lasting memory. You can dis spanking all you want. What I know, with out a doubt, is that it worked for me.

What changed you, the spanking, or the tears? This is a rather large part of my point in my arguments. Empathy. It gives people a why directly related to the issue, rather than "because I'll get spanked".

Yes, fear is powerful, but you generally can't sneak around empathy unless you're a sociopath. Fear just requires stealth or superior power to overcome.

Neither is argument by insult. (comments about not thinking and not reproducing are particularly noteable as offensive and flamebaiting)

Honest opinion is not flaming. I do not feel that people should reproduce unless they are fully prepared for the task and willing to devote a massive amount of time for it. As for the insults, I was playing off his use of "You're not listening". He wanted me to follow, I wanted him to consider.

I have plenty of ammo for insults if I need them, I assure you, but I'm not using it, whatever you may personally assume.

Trying to have me spanked? :D

It was generalized 'you', not a personal one. I don't feel that anyone who doesn't have LOTS of time to watch and train their kid should reproduce. If that's flaming, so is ANY opinion.



From the looks of it, you're too busy trying to make people shut up to stick to your argumentation.

If you can't argue wholly based on the argument, and instead have to make threats and try to scare people away, it doesn't really help your position. Its also readily associatable with the mindset that I -feel- is required to use spanking for something like traffic issues.

And so you don't start on the whole woe is me, mods, save me from dissenters thing:

It's fairly logical. People who use one strategy in one area of their life often tend to use it in other areas. You are comfortable in using punsihment and threats of punishment in place of solid discussion. It may not be your PRIMARY mode of operation, but you are COMFORTABLE with it. At present, you are threatening me with punishment (As I mused above, a 'spanking'). It will not be a serious blow to be, but it will 'put the fear' in to me, and dissuade me from arguing with you further, no matter how valid I feel my points are. In doing so, you squash dissenting opinion, and will assume 'victory', albeit in the same way as tyrant democracies do (scaring off rivals and so forth).

Your behavior merely convinces me further that spanking is psychologically unhealthy, appearantly for both the child AND the parent, because it has seemingly led to this behavior on your part.

Before I even touch the middle parts of your ranting, (which, for some reason you have double indented, so they don't show up in a normal edit...) I would like you to explain where I threatened you?

You flamed me... which is a failing on your part.

I asked you to stop... and explained that I would consider further such 'attacks' as grounds to go to the Moderators... because (and you SHOULD know this, if you post on NS) flaming is not allowed on the forum.

Your response was "You should control your habit of threatening others who do not follow the behavior you desire".

What EXACTLY do you mean by that?

Do you mean, because I said I would inform the Moderators of your flames?

If so - surely (since you are arguing logic and discipline) wouldn't it be 'logical' for you to cease flaming?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know GI too well to make statements like that. He is perfectly capable of discussion and reason and uses both very well. You just don't like what he has to say.

Thank you.

I am currently of the opinion that I am being insulted by this individual... not because he fears my 'threats' (?) but because he is incapable of ACTUALLY creating a reasoned argument against any of my points.

I'll just post my own thoughts on the matter.
I personally doubt that I would spank my children because, from my own experience all I ever learnt from being spanked was that my mum or dad didn't like something. There wasn't much explanation involved, and thus no learning.

And you do become immune to spanking. Well, you do if it stays at the same intensity anyway. All I ever got was a smack on the bum, so it was never REALLY bad.

If a parents *must* smack, I think it should only be in serious situations and should ALWAYS come with a good explanation of what the child did wrong. It should NEVER be an outlet for parental anger.

I honestly don't care how he behaves elsewhere. On THIS thread, he's being very defensive ("Don't patronize me"), and is using threats in place of argument ("mods").

I came here for discussion, not school yard politics. (Teacher teacher, I'm being oppressed!).

Argument by threat isn't useful.

You were being patronising. I asked you not to.

That ISN'T being defensive, it is just a request for common courtesy.

You are being 'rude' to an extent I consider 'flaming', which is 'illegal' on NS... or haven't you read the rules of conduct? I shouldn't NEED to inform the moderators, you should be controlling your OWN behaviour.

Clearly - you are not... thus, I mentioned moderation.

And, if you perpetuate such tactics, I will ask for moderation.

Don't consider it a threat, think of it as part of the debate process... that is WHY we have moderators... to create a 'safe' place for debate. Stay within the parameters, you'll be fine.


Regarding your last comment, "Arguing by threat isn't useful"... well, as I believe PR pointed out, neither is "Arguing by insult".

If you cannot get past ad hominem, I have nothing to say, that you could accept.

From the looks of it, you're too busy trying to make people shut up to stick to your argumentation.

You are comfortable in using punsihment and threats of punishment in place of solid discussion.

First: Ask ANYONE on the forum, with whom I have any consistent 'trade'.

They will tell you, straight away, that I am not about "trying to make people shut up". If THAT were my intention, wouldn't I be better served simply NOT logging in to a debate forum? Then I could blissfully ignore all those people.. the same result as them 'shutting up'?

Again - you resort to ad hominem, in absence of a real debate point.


Second: You have never met me, my friend. And, you have NO IDEA how I raise my child. To be honest, the chief method I use IS pre-empting situations, and discussion... both BEFORE things arise, and in the wake of such events.

Since she was three, my little girl has been assigning her OWN punishments for any wrong-doings.

I fear you are so far up, on that horse, that you are losing track of all us 'little people', down here.

Before I even touch the middle parts of your ranting, (which, for some reason you have double indented, so they don't show up in a normal edit...) I would like you to explain where I threatened you?


Sorry about the quotes, I was in a hurry. Was running off to meet a lady friend.

You threatened to go to the mods, despite not having a valid reason to. It's a fairly common behavior on here, but usually in different sorts of threads.


You flamed me... which is a failing on your part.


Nope. Didn't flame you. If you inferred flaming, that's in error. Flaming would be me going on here and screaming "You suck you child beating communist hippie!" or something. Expressing disagreement and displeasure are not flaming, making a statement that has no other purpose than to incite offense is. I made arguments, and made statements of my opinions, in a fairly direct manner.


I asked you to stop... and explained that I would consider further such 'attacks' as grounds to go to the Moderators... because (and you SHOULD know this, if you post on NS) flaming is not allowed on the forum.


Can't stop what I haven't done. I am as close to entitled to post my opinions here as you are (obviously neither of us are in actuality). You, however, are veering this quite off topic. Replacing your arguments with threats isn't really producing anything useful.


Your response was "You should control your habit of threatening others who do not follow the behavior you desire".

What EXACTLY do you mean by that?


Instead of countering my arguments you make threats about reporting me to mods. I feel you should learn to control that, because then we could argue about the topic instead of about imagined flaming.


Do you mean, because I said I would inform the Moderators of your flames?

If so - surely (since you are arguing logic and discipline) wouldn't it be 'logical' for you to cease flaming?

You can say that I've been calling you President of Africa, doesn't mean I've been doing it. Claims do not equate to facts. I cannot stop what I have not DONE.

Now, can we get back on topic? We had a lovely momentary bit of calm discussing whether it was spankings or tears that set someone straight. I suggested that it was the tears, and thus empathy, rather than the pain response.

I think everyone here is choosing to only acknowledge the extremes in this issue, im for spanking children. Yet not using spanking as the only tool, my parents used spanking to immediatly stop me from doing what I was doing they then explained to me why it was wrong/dangerous. I was never physically damaged when I was spanked. Spanking is not equal to beating the child.

When I was banished to my room all I did was find other ways to amuse myself, making forts out of my bed or my desk for example.
Maybe I just had a better imagination then other kids.

spare the rod, spoil the child.

Okay, here's the thing. Why did they pick 'spanking' instead of any other form of punishment? Did they explain the babysitter's feelings, aka, guilt trip?

Yes, the 'make them wet themselves' thing does work. But it also works for other methods. Consider if it was taking something fun away, or giving you chores. You may well have spent a day worrying over what toys you'd lose, what chores you'd do, etc.


It would appear that you have such a forumlated conception, that you are somehow being blinded to certain things.

Allow me to explain what I mean.

You do not like 'spanking'... you have made that eminently clear... and now you have raised the issue of possible side-effects of spanking.

First, perhaps I need to point out that I am not talking about abusing children, or striking in violence, or leaving damage. I am talking about a deliberate piece of Algetic Conditioning... for example, a couple of short, sharp shocks to the behind.

I'm not going to 'hurt' my child.. that would be counterproductive to everything I stand for... but, if a "short, sharp shock" can avoid a situation (especially a risk situation) then I am going to consider it an option.

Which brings me onto the 'side effects' issue.

Aside from some people, one assumes, deriving their sexual satisfaction from spanking, perhaps as an unresolved domination issue - I am not sure what you mean by 'side-effects'. I have seen no concrete evidence of any harm from reasoned discipline of this kind... EXCEPT where a child was struck in anger. Which is NOT what we are talking about here.

But, that brings me onto another issue... I can see HUGE risks involved in the two methods you suggested... first: "Guilt trip" as a training tool? Do you not think children reach adulthood with ENOUGH issues to resolve?

Second: the use of 'chores' for punishment, strikes me as similar to the 'being sent to bed' punishment. You run the risk of resulting in a child that will not sleep (since bed takes on bad associations), and will not apply themselves (since they can connect ANY industry, with punishment).

Personally - I think there are always 'risks' involved. A good parent tries to minimise those, and tries to make good judgements WITHIN what they know.

First: Ask ANYONE on the forum, with whom I have any consistent 'trade'.

They will tell you, straight away, that I am not about "trying to make people shut up". If THAT were my intention, wouldn't I be better served simply NOT logging in to a debate forum? Then I could blissfully ignore all those people.. the same result as them 'shutting up'?

Again - you resort to ad hominem, in absence of a real debate point.

Second: You have never met me, my friend. And, you have NO IDEA how I raise my child. To be honest, the chief method I use IS pre-empting situations, and discussion... both BEFORE things arise, and in the wake of such events.

Since she was three, my little girl has been assigning her OWN punishments for any wrong-doings.

I fear you are so far up, on that horse, that you are losing track of all us 'little people', down here.

I have zero interest in allowing you to make an argument by popularity or anything of the nature.

I only judge you by the posts on this thread. I don't pretend to know anything else about you but what you have presented here. As far as I know, you're Jesus Jr, or, more impressively, Bitchkitten's alternate account. Dunno. I can only base my statements on what I see here. I can't even assume you're being honest. As far as I know, you don't have a kid, and were raised in a Government Base by people in robot suits. It doesn't MATTER. I don't CARE. It doesn't make your argument any different.

Beyond that, I have not used ad hominem. I have never stated "This person has issue X, thus, you should ignore his argument." I have suggested that your behavior on this thread could be analyzed as being related to your opinions, but that doesn't change the validity of them.

And good for your daughter. She sounds quite intelligent.

Your arguments stand or fall on their validity and the truth of their premises, or lack thereof, not on your personal issue. If you were a Neo-Nazi Crossdresser who ate kids, it wouldn't make your statements any more or less valid.

Similarly, your high horse statement isn't ad hominem until you claim it applies to the validity my arguments. I can infer it to be so, and you may well have meant it to be so, but I can't honestly claim it until you make a more direct link, so I won't.

Can we argue about spanking now?

I'll just post my own thoughts on the matter.
I personally doubt that I would spank my children because, from my own experience all I ever learnt from being spanked was that my mum or dad didn't like something. There wasn't much explanation involved, and thus no learning.

And you do become immune to spanking. Well, you do if it stays at the same intensity anyway. All I ever got was a smack on the bum, so it was never REALLY bad.

If a parents *must* smack, I think it should only be in serious situations and should ALWAYS come with a good explanation of what the child did wrong. It should NEVER be an outlet for parental anger.

I would never advocate 'non-constructive' spanking (i.e. well, ANY form of punishment that didn't explain WHAT was being done, and WHY.... not just for spanking... you need to have children understand why you praise certain of their acts, and punish others.

I also agree - spanking is serious, and should be treated as such. And, I ABSOLUTELY agree, it should NEVER be an outlet for anger. THAT isn't 'punishment'.

It would appear that you have such a forumlated conception, that you are somehow being blinded to certain things.


I kindly ask that you read my very first post in this thread.


Allow me to explain what I mean.

You do not like 'spanking'... you have made that eminently clear... and now you have raised the issue of possible side-effects of spanking.


Again, read my very first post.


First, perhaps I need to point out that I am not talking about abusing children, or striking in violence, or leaving damage. I am talking about a deliberate piece of Algetic Conditioning... for example, a couple of short, sharp shocks to the behind.


I am fully aware of the conditioning method. I am fully aware of the process.


I'm not going to 'hurt' my child.. that would be counterproductive to everything I stand for... but, if a "short, sharp shock" can avoid a situation (especially a risk situation) then I am going to consider it an option.


Again, I am fully aware. The method is also used on horses via riding crops, though with them its usually more of a sound thing, since it takes a serious blow to actually hurt a horse, and few riding crops can really deliver that much force without snapping or bending.


Which brings me onto the 'side effects' issue.

Aside from some people, one assumes, deriving their sexual satisfaction from spanking, perhaps as an unresolved domination issue - I am not sure what you mean by 'side-effects'. I have seen no concrete evidence of any harm from reasoned discipline of this kind... EXCEPT where a child was struck in anger. Which is NOT what we are talking about here.


Agreed. I am not talking about damage of any form, nor anything sexual. The BDSM comment was simply a side reference, as I wager the commonality of physical forms of punishment is related to certain manifestations of it.


But, that brings me onto another issue... I can see HUGE risks involved in the two methods you suggested... first: "Guilt trip" as a training tool? Do you not think children reach adulthood with ENOUGH issues to resolve?


Guilt trip as in "Look, you made mommy cry when you nearly got run over. Do you want mommy to cry again? No? Good. Then be more careful." Unless the kid wants mommy to cry... which is a whole different issue.


Second: the use of 'chores' for punishment, strikes me as similar to the 'being sent to bed' punishment. You run the risk of resulting in a child that will not sleep (since bed takes on bad associations), and will not apply themselves (since they can connect ANY industry, with punishment).


Frankly, the punishment/reward model in general is considered the lesser method. Spanking is just one form of punsihment. The whole style is looked down upon in the texts I've used, and in my own personal opinion.

It's basically the difference between Behaviorism and Cognitive learning.


Personally - I think there are always 'risks' involved. A good parent tries to minimise those, and tries to make good judgements WITHIN what they know.

Agreed. Anything can go wrong. However, spanking, from what I've read and what I've seen, carries EXTRA risks. But, again, read my first post.

I have never stated that spanking is NEVER EVER EVER to be done. I just don't consider it a valid method for anything other than assault or the like, in the same way I'd break someone's finger (an actual threat, of course) if they attacked me (At that age, even bruises can be easy to ignore.. takes some serious crazy to ignore broken body parts).

You threatened to go to the mods, despite not having a valid reason to. It's a fairly common behavior on here, but usually in different sorts of threads.

Nope. Didn't flame you. If you inferred flaming, that's in error. Flaming would be me going on here and screaming "You suck you child beating communist hippie!" or something. Expressing disagreement and displeasure are not flaming, making a statement that has no other purpose than to incite offense is. I made arguments, and made statements of my opinions, in a fairly direct manner.

Can't stop what I haven't done. I am as close to entitled to post my opinions here as you are (obviously neither of us are in actuality). You, however, are veering this quite off topic. Replacing your arguments with threats isn't really producing anything useful.

Instead of countering my arguments you make threats about reporting me to mods. I feel you should learn to control that, because then we could argue about the topic instead of about imagined flaming.

You can say that I've been calling you President of Africa, doesn't mean I've been doing it. Claims do not equate to facts. I cannot stop what I have not DONE.

Now, can we get back on topic? We had a lovely momentary bit of calm discussing whether it was spankings or tears that set someone straight. I suggested that it was the tears, and thus empathy, rather than the pain response.

On the contrary, friend... I consider comments like:

"And if that's too much of a waste of time to bother with, you shouldn't be reproducing".

and

"I don't feel it's moral for me to put kids in a world run by jackasses who consider violence a means of solving everything".

To be flaming. If they were not INTENDED to be flame, you should work on your wording. The fault there is yours.

I accept that your comments may have been designed to be generic (as you have since implied)... but that is NOT evident (thus, any perceived attack, is a direct attack). Secondly - I think that is irrelevent... if you say ALL parents that spank are abusing their children... well, that is the same as saying it specifically about me... it is STILL a flame.

Stop protesting your innocence, ("Can't stop what I haven't done") and accept, and deal with the issue.

Lastly, "Instead of countering my arguments you make threats about reporting me to mods"... is not only misleading, but also wrong. Your points were adressed, with the simple addition of a request for a cessation of your flaming, and the advance of knowledge that I would go to the Mods, if you continue.

For boys yes, for girls no.

Spanking to cause pain is wrong, but spanking to cause the illusion of pain, i believe is right. Hence using a rolled up newspaper or something that will cause maximum noise but minimal pain.

It is the shock of the noise that will lead the child to believe he is being spanked harder than he actually is.

He will also direct most of his resentment on the inanimate object.

I have zero interest in allowing you to make an argument by popularity or anything of the nature.


I have no idea what that even means, or how it is relevent.

You launched an 'ad hominem' attack on me, about how I was merely trying to 'shut people up'... which is ridiculous. I do not try to 'shut people up', even the rude and obnoxious ones.

Like I said - you could ask anyone on the forum. That ISN'T a request that we settle this with popularity... it is a direct rebuttal of your assertion of my debating inclinations, in the ONLY way that such a thing COULD be proved... I'm saying, if that is how you perceive me... try asking people that I debate with.


I only judge you by the posts on this thread. I don't pretend to know anything else about you but what you have presented here. As far as I know, you're Jesus Jr, or, more impressively, Bitchkitten's alternate account. Dunno. I can only base my statements on what I see here. I can't even assume you're being honest. As far as I know, you don't have a kid, and were raised in a Government Base by people in robot suits. It doesn't MATTER. I don't CARE. It doesn't make your argument any different.

Beyond that, I have not used ad hominem. I have never stated "This person has issue X, thus, you should ignore his argument." I have suggested that your behavior on this thread could be analyzed as being related to your opinions, but that doesn't change the validity of them.


On the contrary.

Re-read your own posts. You have made several obvious ad hominem 'arguments'... merely denying them after-the-fact does not alter the fact.


And good for your daughter. She sounds quite intelligent.


She is.


Your arguments stand or fall on their validity and the truth of their premises, or lack thereof, not on your personal issue. If you were a Neo-Nazi Crossdresser who ate kids, it wouldn't make your statements any more or less valid.

Similarly, your high horse statement isn't ad hominem until you claim it applies to the validity my arguments. I can infer it to be so, and you may well have meant it to be so, but I can't honestly claim it until you make a more direct link, so I won't.

Can we argue about spanking now?

The 'high horse' statement DOES apply specifically to how you have been acting. Your premise (as you are arguing it) is that you MUSt be right, because everyone who argues is invalidated by their lack of 'moral' code, and the fact that they 'abuse' their child.

THAT is not debating the issue... that is preaching.

And, to be honest... saying that you need to come down from your elected pedestal, if accepted as ad hominem, is nothing... compared to your own actions.

On the contrary, friend... I consider comments like:

To be flaming. If they were not INTENDED to be flame, you should work on your wording. The fault there is yours.

I accept that your comments may have been designed to be generic (as you have since implied)... but that is NOT evident (thus, any perceived attack, is a direct attack). Secondly - I think that is irrelevent... if you say ALL parents that spank are abusing their children... well, that is the same as saying it specifically about me... it is STILL a flame.

Stop protesting your innocence, ("Can't stop what I haven't done") and accept, and deal with the issue.

Lastly, "Instead of countering my arguments you make threats about reporting me to mods"... is not only misleading, but also wrong. Your points were adressed, with the simple addition of a request for a cessation of your flaming, and the advance of knowledge that I would go to the Mods, if you continue.

Still wasn't flaming. If you thought I meant you specifically, that was simply a communication error. Now, if, in fact, you did not have the time and interest to spend on a child that would lead speed a non-issue, then it would apply to you. I did not, however, make the statement that you were such a person. Beyond that, I was merely stating an opinion. I did not say "Grave should have his kids taken away". I consider raising a child to be accepting a massive sacrifice for the good of another being who has the right to tell you to shove it. Anyone who produces a child with the idea of USING that child, I feel, should be shunted off in to space in a plastic bag. It's not flaming, its just truth of my opinion. And again, I'm not accusing you of it. Presuming your honesty, you seem to have a great deal of time you spend on your child, and I haven't seen any evidence of you using a child in any way. I simply disagree with a PART of your method of raising children. So lets drop it already, eh?

Make arguments about the topic. If you want to continue with "Is the Flamedancer a Flamer?", start a thread about it or something.

Spanking is harmless. It inflicts pain, teaching the child to consider the consequences of it's actions in the future, while leaving no lasting injury.

Dicipline is important to learn at an early age. Be cynical, think of it like training a dog. You give it treats when it does well and a slap on the snout when it craps on the carpet.

I have no idea what that even means, or how it is relevent.


You suggested that the opinion of others should sway my opinion. It may not be the argument by popularity, but I don't feel like looking up the fallacies at the moment.


You launched an 'ad hominem' attack on me, about how I was merely trying to 'shut people up'... which is ridiculous. I do not try to 'shut people up', even the rude and obnoxious ones.


Nope. Read up on the fallacies. If you want to call me deluded or a liar, fine, but I never said that your argument failed because I feel you're trying to get me to shut up.


Like I said - you could ask anyone on the forum. That ISN'T a request that we settle this with popularity... it is a direct rebuttal of your assertion of my debating inclinations, in the ONLY way that such a thing COULD be proved... I'm saying, if that is how you perceive me... try asking people that I debate with.


I form my own opinions. Again, I don't care if even the people I respect most on here ALL come and say you're the greatest. My opinion is the only one -I- care about. My statements are wholly about this thread. You do realize I don't even LOOK at the names on here, right? At this very moment, I'm not sure if you're Grave or Popular-whatever. Seriously.



On the contrary.

Re-read your own posts. You have made several obvious ad hominem 'arguments'... merely denying them after-the-fact does not alter the fact.



Where did I state "This person is/feels/looks like X, thus, their arguments are not valid"? That is ad hominem.



She is.



Always good.



The 'high horse' statement DOES apply specifically to how you have been acting.


I have a big ego. Does that make me -wrong- in and of itself? If you say yes, that's ad hominem. If you say no, then no fallacy. Whether you're being fallicious or not also does not alter the validity, incidentally.


Your premise (as you are arguing it) is that you MUSt be right, because everyone who argues is invalidated by their lack of 'moral' code, and the fact that they 'abuse' their child.


My argument is not:

"Incenjucar must be right"
"Incenjucar thinks spanking is bad"
"Thus, spanking must be bad."

My argument is, more or less:

"The punishment should have the largest possible benefit with the least possible side effects."
"Spanking, according to psychological texts and Incenjucar's experience, does not have the largest possible benefit with the least possible side effects."
"Thus, spanking should not be the punishment used, according to Incenjucar's texts and experience."


THAT is not debating the issue... that is preaching.

And, to be honest... saying that you need to come down from your elected pedestal, if accepted as ad hominem, is nothing... compared to your own actions.

"Yeah, but you're worse" is also a fallacy. :D

How can you start a post with something like:


I am fully aware of the conditioning method. I am fully aware of the process.


And then, continue with a comment like:


Again, I am fully aware. The method is also used on horses via riding crops, though with them its usually more of a sound thing, since it takes a serious blow to actually hurt a horse, and few riding crops can really deliver that much force without snapping or bending.


To make the assertion of a direct connection between 'spanking' as a form of discipline, and 'cropping' horses as a 'spur', shows that you really are NOT "fully aware of the process".


Frankly, the punishment/reward model in general is considered the lesser method. Spanking is just one form of punsihment. The whole style is looked down upon in the texts I've used, and in my own personal opinion.


You are confusing 'opinion' with fact. There are, indeed, many people who frown upon spanking. But weight of numbers is no insurance of truth.... they could be wrong.

I actually believe that punishment/reward is a flawed model, but it isn't the WHOLE of the interaction between a child and a parent. And, when applied sensitively, it has the potential to be a VERY constructive tool.

My daughter is instrumental in the decision of her punishments and rewards. Part of the upshot of that is, her clear advantage over her first-grade friends at setting goals, and self-incentivising and self-disciplining.

Perhaps the 'style' is 'looked down' on in some texts... but I think that depends on WHEN spanking is administered, WHAT the context is, HOW spanking is handled, and WHAT it is aimed to achieve.

Be cynical, think of it like training a dog. You give it treats when it does well and a slap on the snout when it craps on the carpet.

Yeah... Except you're trying to give your kids a framework for understanding the world, not training them to sit when you tell them...

Its your opinion, versus my opinion and the opinion of psychologists who study this sort of thing for a living.

Psychology is a 'soft science', so its entirely possible that their findings are utter BS. I acknowledge this. However, my personal experience tells me that they're correct. Does that make it a proven fact? No. It's not physically possible for us to know who's correct here.

Oh, and ~"Incenjucar compares spanking to using riding crops, thus Incenjucar's opinion is not valid." is ad hominem. If you would like to disprove my opinion that the two are related, then you may have a point, but then we start getting in to evolutionary psychology, and that's a different thread.

You suggested that the opinion of others should sway my opinion. It may not be the argument by popularity, but I don't feel like looking up the fallacies at the moment...."Yeah, but you're worse" is also a fallacy. :D

Aha, I get it...

You will force this discussion back onto topic, by making a post that starts out with a fallacy, and heads slowly downhill from there.

Seriously - re-read your posts, looking for your ad hominem content, my friend.

But, enough... this last post of yours has carried out your intention, although probably not in the fashion you intended.

I have no intention of discussing concepts like 'flaming', 'ad hominem' or 'fallacy' with you any longer. For reasons that, to me, are all too clear.

Its your opinion, versus my opinion and the opinion of psychologists who study this sort of thing for a living.

Psychology is a 'soft science', so its entirely possible that their findings are utter BS. I acknowledge this. However, my personal experience tells me that they're correct. Does that make it a proven fact? No. It's not physically possible for us to know who's correct here.

Oh, and ~"Incenjucar compares spanking to using riding crops, thus Incenjucar's opinion is not valid." is ad hominem. If you would like to disprove my opinion that the two are related, then you may have a point, but then we start getting in to evolutionary psychology, and that's a different thread.

I've said I no longer consider it worthwhile debating concepts like 'ad hominem' with you, so I'm not even going to touch that.

Both 'spanking' and 'cropping' share ONE factor... they are based on Algetic responses.

The difference lies in the application.

Spanking is Algetic Conditioning, it uses an unpleasant association (theoretically, a 'pain response'... although spanking is rarely about actual pain)... to form a connection.

'Cropping' a horse is not Algetic 'conditioning'... you are not looking for a 'learned response'. 'Cropping' is about receiving a specific response from the repeated application of algetic stimulation... i.e. making the horse run faster, by 'hurting' it continuously.

So. Based on that post a page or two ago, what suggests that the spanking was important when it was the tears that were seemingly the cause of the ultimate change of behavior?

In both cases you are altering behavior. You can also crop a horse to dissuade it. Say the horse is try to uproot a fence. Crop the horse on the rear, and do this consistantly, whenever it goes after the fence, and you will can alter their behavior. Cropping isn't just about scaring the horse in to going faster. We're not talking race horses.

If you prefer, consider the 'spank the dog with a newspaper' method.

to me, spanking is the same as bullying.
I am bigger therefore I will hit you until you stop doing things I don't like.

to me, spanking is the same as bullying.
I am bigger therefore I will hit you until you stop doing things I don't like.
Overly simplistic view but if that’s how you choose to see it alright (though I would hope most good parents wouldn’t hit just because they are bigger then the kid … if they did that really wouldn’t make them a good parent)

This is an interesting topic to me, but I'm afraid I can't provide an objective viewpoint.

You see.. someone told my father that the best way to make me stop misbehaving was to beat it out of me. If it doesn't work, then hit harder, more often, and with more repitition. After about 2 years (starting when I was 5...) my spankings became a way for him to release his growing anger and frustration at the marriage my parents were not doing well in. By the time I was 9 I was consistantly missing school because of welts on my buttocks, lower back and upper legs, and I had started getting my 'revenge' on him in various ways (like formatting his computer, or taking and hiding or handing out the money in his wallet).

A half inch thick leather belt, with twin holes down the length of it, and a very large metal buckle. Some Saturdays he'd hang it on my door, so I'd see it first thing when I woke up, and if my room wasn't spotless by lunchtime, guess what happened. 50 whacks on a bare ass.

He stopped when I was 12, because I got my first periods around then. Obviously, this is a case of extremist abuse, and also obviously I was somehow able to come through this without killing myself (oh how I tried) or any others (again.. just barely). I have what my doctors call PTSD, usually only seen in war veterans, and all sorts of social and mental side effects from this.

When my father remarried, and was a stepfather to a 5 year old, I saw him spank her and burst into tears at 22. He and I had been working very hard in therapy and had made quite a bit of progress, but he hadn't learned a thing. He spanked her without hesitation. Since then he's gotten the book "Children are from Heaven" and has changed his manners of discipline. I am pleased to say that now three years later his stepdaughter has not felt his hand again, so maybe I was able to affect that.

My younger brothers were lucky, they weren't punished in this way.

So, as I said, I cannot supply an objective opinion on this, but my vote is definitely for "no". "Discipline" does not mean spanking, and any form of violence, be it a smack on the butt or a black eye, is not what you should be teaching any children. Teach your kids respect and responsibility and logical empathy instead. Please.

Overly simplistic view but if that’s how you choose to see it alright (though I would hope most good parents wouldn’t hit just because they are bigger then the kid … if they did that really wouldn’t make them a good parent)

It's the child's perspective one has to worry about.

How is the CHILD going to take it.

It's the child's perspective one has to worry about.

How is the CHILD going to take it.

I'd imagine on the bottom, with some crying involved.

*rimshot*

This is an interesting topic to me, but I'm afraid I can't provide an objective viewpoint.

You see.. someone told my father that the best way to make me stop misbehaving was to beat it out of me. If it doesn't work, then hit harder, more often, and with more repitition. After about 2 years (starting when I was 5...) my spankings became a way for him to release his growing anger and frustration at the marriage my parents were not doing well in. By the time I was 9 I was consistantly missing school because of welts on my buttocks, lower back and upper legs, and I had started getting my 'revenge' on him in various ways (like formatting his computer, or taking and hiding or handing out the money in his wallet).

A half inch thick leather belt, with twin holes down the length of it, and a very large metal buckle. Some Saturdays he'd hang it on my door, so I'd see it first thing when I woke up, and if my room wasn't spotless by lunchtime, guess what happened. 50 whacks on a bare ass.

He stopped when I was 12, because I got my first periods around then. Obviously, this is a case of extremist abuse, and also obviously I was somehow able to come through this without killing myself (oh how I tried) or any others (again.. just barely). I have what my doctors call PTSD, usually only seen in war veterans, and all sorts of social and mental side effects from this.

When my father remarried, and was a stepfather to a 5 year old, I saw him spank her and burst into tears at 22. He and I had been working very hard in therapy and had made quite a bit of progress, but he hadn't learned a thing. He spanked her without hesitation. Since then he's gotten the book "Children are from Heaven" and has changed his manners of discipline. I am pleased to say that now three years later his stepdaughter has not felt his hand again, so maybe I was able to affect that.

My younger brothers were lucky, they weren't punished in this way.

So, as I said, I cannot supply an objective opinion on this, but my vote is definitely for "no". "Discipline" does not mean spanking, and any form of violence, be it a smack on the butt or a black eye, is not what you should be teaching any children. Teach your kids respect and responsibility and logical empathy instead. Please.

What you are describing isn't 'spanking'.

Learn how to spell "definitely"
And "discipline".

(I think he/she/it needs a good whacking.)

It's the child's perspective one has to worry about.

How is the CHILD going to take it.
But he was not responding from the Childs view he was responding on what HE thought spanking motivation to be

What the adult thinks is going on is only important in court.

What actually IS going on is what decides how the child will grow up.

What the adult thinks is going on is only important in court.

What actually IS going on is what decides how the child will grow up.
How does this have anything to do with what I said?


He made a comment on the attitude of the parent ... I summarized it as overly simplistic ...

You mistakenly came back about something else ... I pointed out that I said that it is a simplistic view of what the parent is actualy doing

How does this relate to court?
I made no refference to child perception in this ... I was talking parental motivation only

one thing i find about spanking is that after a wile it stops working. with myself and my siblings we would rather get a spanking than be in timeout because the spanking doesn't take as long. we also became immune to it and started laughing when ever my parents tried to do so.

I have never stated that spanking is NEVER EVER EVER to be done. I just don't consider it a valid method for anything other than assault or the like, in the same way I'd break someone's finger (an actual threat, of course) if they attacked me (At that age, even bruises can be easy to ignore.. takes some serious crazy to ignore broken body parts).

I can see this line of thinking... and how it would logically work, to respond to a childs misactions through reasoning. HOWEVER, MOST children (at certain young ages) simply do not hold the capacity to understand consequences of actions... and so explaining to them WHY they shouldn't do something simply is insuffient.. becuase they are unable to grasp the idea of WHY.. and even if they do at that moment, children often are plagued with bad memories in this area.. you can tell them, "you cant run across the street because a car will hit you" without some kind of landmark actions to help them remember (spanking) because when they run accross the street for the ball.. they arn't thinking (gee a car will hit me) but they maybe thinking (i might get spanked for doing this). Besides the fact that making a child do chores is often seen as far less severe (in the eyes of a child) then being spanked.. Quite frankly i can remeber plenty of times in which i was spanked.. and i would have given anything to clean up the bathroom over those 20 seconds of pain.

This argument is not to say that spanking should be the overriding tool in punishment, but that it has a very useful place and has a specific function.. "
"imposing fear". Logic and rewards and things like chores are all good.. but a person simply cannot live life without fear.. they certainly can't live life always in fear.. but the use of spanking gives clearly defined limitations with little need for excessive explanation.

one thing i find about spanking is that after a wile it stops working. with myself and my siblings we would rather get a spanking than be in timeout because the spanking doesn't take as long. we also became immune to it and started laughing when ever my parents tried to do so.

its true a spanking doesn't last as long (physically).. but then 2 weeks later when you are misbehaving again, your less likly to remeber the extra chores you had to do or the 30 minute time out over the spanking you got. (Inflicting pain has more longevity in memory then in physical reality)

i beg to differ on the forgetting about the chores and the timeout. we would always remember how inconvenient it was to just sit in the corner or in the bathroom. i used to ask my parents to just spank me so it would be done with.

also with the inflicting pain bit. nowadays i find pain fun and constently bug my mom to hit me.

Your statement suggests that spanking a kid will instantly make them traffic-wise. You have to teach them the whole 'look both ways, and don't walk across the street without mom or dad' thing. All spanking does is say "Some action you have done is to be avoided." It doesn't inform them what that is, it doesn't teach them anything, and it doesn't provide for WHAT that is. I've seen kids, under that method, run in to the street as soon as their parent stepped down in it. The spank only managed to communicate "Don't step off the curb on your own."

I just wnat to provide a counter to this argument because it is often used... Your line of logic suggets that the child after hearing the reasoning behind why he can't cross the street will then receive the "this action is to be avoided"... while logic may suggest this.. REALITY is far different. Tell a child not to stick his hand in fire because he will get burned..a nd the first thing he will do is test it. Your line of reasoning then failes to communicate the "this action is to be avoided" segement. In REALITY spanking simply isn't handed out with no "little talk" attached to it. When a child runs across the street and you catch them.. you make it quite clear as to why they shouldn't run accross the street (because a car will hit them) then reinforce it with the spanking (which gives them a reason to avoid the action)... its all about reinforcement...

Of course you can use other forms of negative reinforcement like chores.. but chores have far less impact (imposition of fear) then spanking does.. and I find that children need to have some level of fear in thier learning process to provided proper limitations... (no one can live life without any fear... while no one can live life with nothing but fear)... this is my argument for spanking

i beg to differ on the forgetting about the chores and the timeout. we would always remember how inconvenient it was to just sit in the corner or in the bathroom. i used to ask my parents to just spank me so it would be done with.

also with the inflicting pain bit. nowadays i find pain fun and constently bug my mom to hit me.

those are deeper issues arn't they (future S&M adict) .. spanking is best utlized at a young age.. 4-8 It loses its effectiveness quickly but can be greatly impactful in the short time of usage. It could also be that your parents simply failed to express how much you shouldn't do a t hing through "spanking" belive me.. if you got my parents version of spanking you woudln't be asking for it.. you'd be begging to spend an hour in the bathroom

i agree with the whole reinforcement bit but i have a bug issue with the fear bit.

i understand that no one can go through life without fear but that fear shouldn't come from the parents. instilling fear into ones own children is a big no no and can have major adverse affects on the relationship between the two. i find caring, respect, and comfort are the best for helping kids learn not to do something. if you can teach a kid to respect fire by showing him or her what it does to a stick or some other object they will get the lesson of "if you play with fire you will get burned." and you did it all without instilling fear into the child

those are deeper issues arn't they (future S&M adict) .. spanking is best utlized at a young age.. 4-8 It loses its effectiveness quickly but can be greatly impactful in the short time of usage. It could also be that your parents simply failed to express how much you shouldn't do a t hing through "spanking" belive me.. if you got my parents version of spanking you woudln't be asking for it.. you'd be begging to spend an hour in the bathroom
first off i have no issues with my parents and i love them both. second, drugs are bad and that is the one issue i would spank my children for. third, if you are getting spanked that hard there is definately some child abuse issues there.

i agree with the whole reinforcement bit but i have a bug issue with the fear bit.

i understand that no one can go through life without fear but that fear shouldn't come from the parents. instilling fear into ones own children is a big no no and can have major adverse affects on the relationship between the two. i find caring, respect, and comfort are the best for helping kids learn not to do something. if you can teach a kid to respect fire by showing him or her what it does to a stick or some other object they will get the lesson of "if you play with fire you will get burned." and you did it all without instilling fear into the child

I disagree.. I think its BEST if fear comes from the parents.. Children know throughout their lives that the parents love them wholely unconditionally, and so if they are doing something to inflict fear on them it must be a vital issue (expressing importance)...

If spanking is used in a controled manner ... there is no evidence to suggest it would have adverse effects on your relationship with your children... As I child I was spanked, and i have an excellent relationship with my parents (as do most other children who get spanked in their childhoods)

And it is simple reality with children that the more you say NO (lacking appropriate reinforcement) the more they will test you. They test because they are looking for the limits of their actions... fear gives them defined limits in a controled manner.. instead of them learning the dangers of fire through first or second degree burns (or the house going down and killing everyone inside)

I disagree.. I think its BEST if fear comes from the parents.. Children know throughout their lives that the parents love them wholely unconditionally, and so if they are doing something to inflict fear on them it must be a vital issue (expressing importance)...

If spanking is used in a controled manner ... there is no evidence to suggest it would have adverse effects on your relationship with your children... As I child I was spanked, and i have an excellent relationship with my parents (as do most other children who get spanked in their childhoods)

And it is simple reality with children that the more you say NO (lacking appropriate reinforcement) the more they will test you. They test because they are looking for the limits of their actions... fear gives them defined limits in a controled manner.. instead of them learning the dangers of fire through first or second degree burns (or the house going down and killing everyone inside)
again i will have to disagree. if a child fears hir or her parents who or where is that child going to turn for help.(drugs maybe)

also, respect for something can define limits just as well as fear can. the only difference is that if the child chooses do disrespect what ever the issue is then they will get to learn first hand what the parent was talking about, and learning first hand is one of the best ways to learn.

first off i have no issues with my parents and i love them both. second, drugs are bad and that is the one issue i would spank my children for. third, if you are getting spanked that hard there is definately some child abuse issues there.

well like i said.. spanking is only effective at a young age.. if your children are using drugs at that young an age.. its a sever problem even spanking couldn't address.. at later ages I would say spanking is the WORST thing you can do ESPECIALLY when addressing drugs.. this is a more mature issue which must be addressed with logic and positive reinforcement.

Child abuse... is a very harsh word which i feel is thrown around far too loosely.. though in all fairness there were several boarder line cases in my childhood ~_^ nothing i didn't learn from though. But then again we feared their "other" tactics as well when it came to disiplin.. my parents were very creative.. the ice cold baths to "cool us down" from a temper tantrum were most memorable >.<

first off i have no issues with my parents and i love them both. second, drugs are bad and that is the one issue i would spank my children for. third, if you are getting spanked that hard there is definately some child abuse issues there.

well like i said.. spanking is only effective at a young age.. if your children are using drugs at that young an age.. its a sever problem even spanking couldn't address.. at later ages I would say spanking is the WORST thing you can do ESPECIALLY when addressing drugs.. this is a more mature issue which must be addressed with logic and positive reinforcement.

Child abuse... is a very harsh word which i feel is thrown around far too loosely.. though in all fairness there were several boarder line cases in my childhood ~_^ nothing i didn't learn from though. But then again we feared their "other" tactics as well when it came to disiplin.. my parents were very creative.. the ice cold baths to "cool us down" from a temper tantrum were most memorable >.<

i do not use the phrase child abuse that often or that loosely. if i use it than i mean it. the socalled creativity of your parents wouldn't hold up in a court of law in most states.

off the subject really quickly, isn't it interesting how the tactics a parent uses change from age group to age group.

i do not use the phrase child abuse that often or that loosely. if i use it than i mean it. the socalled creativity of your parents wouldn't hold up in a court of law in most states.

off the subject really quickly, isn't it interesting how the tactics a parent uses change from age group to age group.

Thats called good parenting... obviously you cant use the same punishments over and over.. they lose effectiveness. Besides, not all punishments are suitable for all age groups. As the child grows older the revoking of privliages becomes more prominent becuase the child would otherwise be prived to more privliages.. there are only so many privliages you can take away form a 5 year old.. he/she is basically under your thumb to begin with

As for so called child abuse.. lacking physical evidence or signs of emotional trama (most children recieving moderate disciplin in this area rarely experaince emotional trama) there really is no case for child abuse. If you are leaving bruises or cuts .. it is clearly child abuse.. and in addition if the child is becoming severly depressed or rebelious or reclusive that is also a sign ... generally however this is not the case at all (except those actual cases of child abuse)

None of this of course works in at all of the definition of "spanking" which i am using to make my arguments

oh well, its been fun but my brain is starting to shut down(probibly because it is 2:30 am here) and i can see that this little chat we have been having hasent changed the views each of us hold, so i will bid you adue, good night , and i hope we can di it again sometime.

until then farewell