NationStates Jolt Archive


Playing as the Germans

Filowfe
28-02-2005, 13:16
If there were a WWII First Person shooter...like Call Of Duty for example.. That allowed you to play as a German Soldier, would this be considered ethical or unethical and why?
Kanabia
28-02-2005, 13:18
There are many strategy games (Close Combat, Hearts of Iron) that allow you to effect alternate history in a more profound way, so why not?

I think it would make for an interesting game, provided it isn't something like "1944: SS Concentration Camp Guard"
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 13:19
Battle Field 1942.

You can play as the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, the Americans, the British and I believe also as the French.

Seriously man, there is more to gaming than just the crap that gets released on consoles.

Also, why limit it to FPS? Plenty of tank and air combat simulators let you fly for the Luftwaffe
Filowfe
28-02-2005, 13:22
Battle Field 1942.

You can play as the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, the Americans, the British and I believe also as the French.

Seriously man, there is more to gaming than just the crap that gets released on consoles.

Also, why limit it to FPS? Plenty of tank and air combat simulators let you fly for the Luftwaffe

Because I've never seen it done as in a Single Player story mode that lets you play as a German Soldier in a FPS game...

Apparently it's because many people think it's unethical to play as a German soldier in the Wermacht or SS units...

But I think it would help the generations to come to see what was going on in the day of the life of a German Soldier back then...
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 13:26
Because I've never seen it done as in a Single Player story mode that lets you play as a German Soldier in a FPS game...

Apparently it's because many people think it's unethical to play as a German soldier in the Wermacht or SS units...

But I think it would help the generations to come to see what was going on in the day of the life of a German Soldier back then...


More likely its because in Germany itself you can't display the *censored by the Germans* at all, indeed it gets edited out of games. At the same time no one wants to make a game from that perspective to risk trying to sell it to the Americans/British etc... and have it flop for the perspective presented.

History books can tell you what is going on in a day in the life of a German soldier. FPS are made to entertain, not educate.
Kanabia
28-02-2005, 13:32
History books can tell you what is going on in a day in the life of a German soldier. FPS are made to entertain, not educate.

I feel it would do the job nicely.

Imagine a story-mode game set in Stalingrad or such, portraying the internal conflict that the soldier is having at witnessing atrocities on both sides? It could be very good indeed.
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 13:41
I feel it would do the job nicely.

Imagine a story-mode game set in Stalingrad or such, portraying the internal conflict that the soldier is having at witnessing atrocities on both sides? It could be very good indeed.

Sure it would make a decent game. So what? The purpose of a game is to entertain, not to educate. Making an accurate representation of warfare isn't actually that entertaining, hence why its not done. You can fill in the periods between the actual playing of the game with whatever you want, but you'll find most people simply pound the space-bar and escape to skip any long drawn out scenes of internal conflict to get back to the action.
Kanabia
28-02-2005, 13:46
Sure it would make a decent game. So what? The purpose of a game is to entertain, not to educate. Making an accurate representation of warfare isn't actually that entertaining, hence why its not done. You can fill in the periods between the actual playing of the game with whatever you want, but you'll find most people simply pound the space-bar and escape to skip any long drawn out scenes of internal conflict to get back to the action.

Pish. Why then is the plot development in games like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex held in such high regard? Granted, they aren't "A" movie material, but nevertheless, story is important.
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 13:49
Pish. Why then is the plot development in games like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex held in such high regard? Granted, they aren't "A" movie material, but nevertheless, story is important.

And the sales of Deus Ex and SS2 compared to Doom III, Quake III, Unreal Tournament, BF:1942, etc...?
Najitene
28-02-2005, 13:50
Pish. Why then is the plot development in games like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex held in such high regard? Granted, they aren't "A" movie material, but nevertheless, story is important.

Scenes are important in those games because they are needed to progress to the future levels. Other games just have "extra" scenes, and those are the one most people skip, sadly. I don't know about you, but I always let them run. It's "entertaining". :p
Jordaxia
28-02-2005, 13:56
And the sales of Deus Ex and SS2 compared to Doom III, Quake III, Unreal Tournament, BF:1942, etc...?

if you're going to base somethings importance based on the sales, then action is not an important part of games, and neither is quality, since the sims is the highest selling game ever. Your point is not valid, to me, since it's not really backed up. But I think Deus Ex sold quite well, even compared to those other titles you mentioned.

I really don't like it when people automatically judge that since a computer game is a new form of entertainment, it can't be used in a mature, adult way, to tell a story and to really draw in a player to the world, and through its story, to educate people. It's such a poor thing to be biased about, and has no reason.

Personally, I think a game told from the Germans perspective could do a lot of good, in showing that they aren't all a bunch of Achtung shouting nazis.
Kanabia
28-02-2005, 14:01
^ Agreed.

Sales do not a good game make.
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 14:07
if you're going to base somethings importance based on the sales, then action is not an important part of games, and neither is quality, since the sims is the highest selling game ever. Your point is not valid, to me, since it's not really backed up. But I think Deus Ex sold quite well, even compared to those other titles you mentioned.

Am I talking about importance? No. Are you a dumbass for thinking I am? Yes.

I really don't like it when people automatically judge that since a computer game is a new form of entertainment, it can't be used in a mature, adult way, to tell a story and to really draw in a player to the world, and through its story, to educate people. It's such a poor thing to be biased about, and has no reason.

New? Computer games have been around since the early 80s. Probably longer than quite a few of the posters on this forum have been alive. And probably unlike you I've probably played a great many of those early games, which were far more mature and adult than the current games.

Besides your the one being the assumptive idiot talking about people bieng biased against games that educate people.

Personally, I think a game told from the Germans perspective could do a lot of good, in showing that they aren't all a bunch of Achtung shouting nazis.

No really? Why smack me with a tree the thought never occurred to me... No not even when I said it would be a decent game to make it from a German perspective... why damn I must of been typing words without the faintest idea of what they meant.
Jordaxia
28-02-2005, 14:16
Am I talking about importance? No. Are you a dumbass for thinking I am? Yes.

No need to be rude.

New? Computer games have been around since the early 80s. Probably longer than quite a few of the posters on this forum have been alive. And probably unlike you I've probably played a great many of those early games, which were far more mature and adult than the current games.

Besides your the one being the assumptive idiot talking about people bieng biased against games that educate people.

I'd say that compared to music, literature, movies and art that yes, computer games are in fact rather new, in exactly the same way that films are new. Music, literature and art: thousands of years old. Movies and games: 100. And you were the one who said that games are intended to entertain and not educate.


No really? Why smack me with a tree the thought never occurred to me... No not even when I said it would be a decent game to make it from a German perspective... why damn I must of been typing words without the faintest idea of what they meant.

I was responding to your initial argument, and the statement that the purpose of games is to entertain, not educate. Had I been responding to the rest of your argument, I'd have said so. I disagree with your statement that the only purpose of games is entertainment, and I don't see why that is incompatible with education.

No doubt, if I left something out, you'll be the first to inform me.
Armed Bookworms
28-02-2005, 14:20
World War II Online. Actually a pretty good game, albeit shitty graphics.
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 14:20
I'd say that compared to music, literature, movies and art that yes, computer games are in fact rather new, in exactly the same way that films are new. Music, literature and art: thousands of years old. Movies and games: 100. And you were the one who said that games are intended to entertain and not educate.

The purpose of games are? To entertain. Can they also educate? Well no shit they can also educate. What is their purpose however? To entertain.

I was responding to your initial argument, and the statement that the purpose of games is to entertain, not educate. Had I been responding to the rest of your argument, I'd have said so. I disagree with your statement that the only purpose of games is entertainment, and I don't see why that is incompatible with education.

No doubt, if I left something out, you'll be the first to inform me.

The purpose of games are? To entertain. Can they also educate? Well no shit they can also educate. What is their purpose however? To entertain.
Najitene
28-02-2005, 14:28
Salvondia... did I just see you contradict yourself? I mean, your WHOLE argument... just now?

Jordaxia is arguing to the point you said "games are to entertain, not educate" I see your point, but now that you said "no shit they can educate" what is your argument.
Salvondia
28-02-2005, 14:44
Salvondia... did I just see you contradict yourself? I mean, your WHOLE argument... just now?

Jordaxia is arguing to the point you said "games are to entertain, not educate" I see your point, but now that you said "no shit they can educate" what is your argument.

What argument?

Unlike the Jordaxia I'm not arguing anything. I'm stated a simple fact. The purpose of games is to entertain. They can do many things but that is generally the main purpose. Jordaxia decided to argue something like "Sure they entertain but they can also educate" To me that is a moronic statement. Something like having someone say

“2+2=4” and someone else coming along and saying “Yeah but 8/2 = 4” To which the proper reply is "No really? Dumbass. Would you like a medal for pointing out the idiotically obvious?"

Indeed there exists an entire sub-industry dealing with games whose main purpose is to educate and be entertaining. Games like Reader Rabbit.
Sharazar
28-02-2005, 15:59
Anyone here seen "Das Boot"?

Yes yes, i know this is a thread about games and "Das Boot" is a movie, but it is from the Germans point of view. The ending was so sad, i almost cried. After all that, and the british bombed them. Had me hating the British for ages. More so than normal. :p

But anyway, it's from the Germans perspective, and it's a fairly well-known popular film, it doesn't seem to have suffered at all.
Mt-Tau
28-02-2005, 16:26
Battle Field 1942.

You can play as the Germans, the Japanese, the Russians, the Americans, the British and I believe also as the French.

Seriously man, there is more to gaming than just the crap that gets released on consoles.

Also, why limit it to FPS? Plenty of tank and air combat simulators let you fly for the Luftwaffe

I play as all side on that as well. Though I think that it is bullshit that the german's flag has been altered for politically correctness. :rolleyes:
Najitene
21-01-2007, 00:57
I'm reviving this topic.


I do think games can entertain and educate simultaneously. Think about a game like Half Life 2. Surely fictional. But its aura, the oppression and suffering you see in the humans by the alien forces are very Earth-like possibilities by humans. It can make one think to fight for survival at any cost and not just sit and take it.

It can teach the player a value, not necessarily a math lecture or historic event etc. Though allusions do often make it into play and that itself is a small history lesson.
Ifreann
21-01-2007, 01:01
I'm reviving this topic.


I do think games can entertain and educate simultaneously. Think about a game like Half Life 2. Surely fictional. But its aura, the opression and suffering you see in the humans by the alien forces are very Earth-like possible. It can make one think to fight for survival at any cost and not just sit and take it.

It can teach the player a value, not necessarily a math lecture or historic event etc. Though allusions do often make it into play and that itself is a small history lesson.

OMGWTFGRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVEDIG
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q100/TheSteveslols/ThreadNecromanyPoster.jpg

Sweet Eris above, it's from 2005!

Put it back in it's grave, for the love of all that is decent in the world!
Sigged.
Ariddia
21-01-2007, 01:15
44-0? I don't think I've ever seen a poll result like that before...
Knight of Nights
21-01-2007, 01:16
I play as all side on that as well. Though I think that it is bullshit that the german's flag has been altered for politically correctness. :rolleyes:

I've heard that many game developers are being more careful about how wwII germany is being portrayed because the german PC game market is an important one. If they make them too weak or ignore history: It might not sell with the german public. If they make it unabashedly real: The german government wont allow it.
Neu Leonstein
21-01-2007, 01:20
Considering how FPS games handle history, it might be better if one can't play the Germans...

If they were gonna make a really story-based game, a little bit like Deus Ex set in World War II, then I think it only makes sense to make the character German. Offers a better look at morality, a longer time frame within the story can be set, a wide variety of theatres, and of course cooler uniforms. :D
Prekkendoria
21-01-2007, 01:22
Its is in no way wrong to have the option to choose your side. Really, if every group that did something (very) distasteful were not to be included as a playable side in computer games, we would lose virtually every nation at some point in world history. Its just a game after all.
Najitene
21-01-2007, 01:24
Frankly, if you don't set the choice how would one learn?

If the Third Reich did succeed to this age with America on the other end, and Germany developed WWII games depicting the loss of the Americans, would they add funtionaility to play as the American or Allied forces?

It seems the question really stands in morality and allowing players to select a now hated society.
Ifreann
21-01-2007, 01:27
People please, let this one slip back into forum obscurity from whence it came.
Johnny B Goode
21-01-2007, 01:32
If there were a WWII First Person shooter...like Call Of Duty for example.. That allowed you to play as a German Soldier, would this be considered ethical or unethical and why?

Yeah. War should be considered from all sides. If you've ever seen the movie Letters from Iwo Jima, you'll know what I'm talking about. It explores the Battle of Iwo Jima from the Japanese side. Damn interesting. So, if you want to play as a German, you should be able to. Most of the German people weren't true Nazis anyway, just scared by propaganda.
Jitia
21-01-2007, 02:51
I think I'd rather see them make a WW2 game based around the French Resistance.

Or even leave World War 2 alone for awhile. A game set in the Spanish Civil War might be interesting.
Vetalia
21-01-2007, 02:58
If you can play as the Soviets, I see no reason why you can't play as the Germans. The USSR was as just as brutal as the Nazi regime, so it's not like they have any moral high ground.
Najitene
21-01-2007, 03:05
If you can play as the Soviets, I see no reason why you can't play as the Germans. The USSR was as just as brutal as the Nazi regime, so it's not like they have any moral high ground.



Precisely.

To this day and age though, you think it is appropriate to make a game where you play as terrorists? Or do you have to wait the standard 30 years before making a game about it.
Andaras Prime
21-01-2007, 03:19
Of course, the Germans had superior weapons.