NationStates Jolt Archive

Now I thought this was a joke when I first read this. But check this link out. This is really something they are going to do at Stanford University. How many of you think this has gone to far? Do you think this isnt far enough?www.livescience.com/scienceoffiction/technovel_mouse_050217.html (http://www.livescience.com/scienceoffiction/technovel_mouse_050217.html)

Wow. That's pretty fucking weird. they must have jumped forwards leaps and bounds since I last checked up on the situation with creation of chimeras.

This kind of thing has gone to far. They shouldnt be messing around like this. Who knows what kind of crap they will come up with. We werent meant to be God.

This kind of thing has gone to far. They shouldnt be messing around like this. Who knows what kind of crap they will come up with. We werent meant to be God.
Really, did god say somewhere thou shalt not create human-mouse chimeras?

As long as it passes a correct ethics comittee, I have nothing against this.

Oh, and only boobs use terms like "mad scientist". Welcome to the 21st century.

This kind of thing has gone to far. They shouldnt be messing around like this. Who knows what kind of crap they will come up with. We werent meant to be God.

No, we weren't meant to be imaginary. What's your point?

No, we weren't meant to be imaginary. What's your point?

What would your point be?

As long as it passes a correct ethics comittee, I have nothing against this.

Oh, and only boobs use terms like "mad scientist". Welcome to the 21st century.

I used the term "Mad scientist" to catch peoples eye to the post.

Get over yourself already.

Ignore Fass he's a complete idiot. He was trying to make a point that G-d doesnt exist.

he's just a sad little retard, that can't comprehend simple things like Supreme Beings and Creationism.

In short, he's a Facist Militant Atheist.

What would your point be?

Why are you mentioning imaginary characters, when it's clear that humans aren't imaginary and thus of course are not "meant" to be so?

What would your point be?
His point is:
God is imaginary. Duh.

Why are you mentioning imaginary characters, when it's clear that humans aren't imaginary and thus of course are not "meant" to be so?


Your brain sure is imaginary though...

Why are you mentioning imaginary characters, when it's clear that humans aren't imaginary and thus of course are not "meant" to be so?


Fass I think you have been uncovered for what you are. Maybe time to find another post to soil.

Ignore Fass he's a complete idiot. He was trying to make a point that G-d doesnt exist.

he's just a sad little retard, that can't comprehend simple things like Supreme Beings and Creationism.

In short, he's a Facist Militant Atheist.

Why, thank you Mahore. Seeing the reprimand you get from the mods over that one will bring me joy.

Why, thank you Mahore. Seeing the reprimand you get from the mods over that one will bring me joy.


And seeing you get warned by mods for insulting other peoples beliefs will also bring me joy. :)

And seeing you get warned by mods for insulting other peoples beliefs will also bring me joy. :)

I hope you're patient, because you'll be waiting a very long time for that.

Oh, and from now on you end up on my ignore list. People who stoop as low as you aren't worthy of my time, and I will not facilitate your shaming any further.

mods wont reprimand him.....they are on his side....the mods are far froim impartial.....they agree with him...i have never seen them reprimand an athiest for mocking the beliefs of others.

Why, thank you Mahore. Seeing the reprimand you get from the mods over that one will bring me joy.


Now would that be the same as you calling me a racist a few days ago Fass?

Because that did get reported. Goes both ways. I noticed throughout your posting histories. That you have sent the Mods complaints on several occasions. Without you actually posting anything worthwhile. So your just trolling for trouble on these boards. I suggest you get a new hobby.

MuhOre: Official Warning - Flaming (Post #9) and flamebaiting (Post #15). Do not feed the trolls.

Fass: Official Warning - Trolling (Posts #6 and #10) and flamebaiting (Post #14). If you want to argue that God is imaginary, then state it explicitly. Do not bait other players on controversial subjects like this.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator

mods wont reprimand him.....they are on his side....the mods are far froim impartial.....they agree with him...i have never seen them reprimand an athiest for mocking the beliefs of others.
Hmm, I'm fairly sure I've seen them do so, in the cases it's bad enough that it actually counts as a flame.

You've got to factor in the fact here that some of the mods are religious, and therefore there's not really going to be some atheist mod cospiracy.

Are you trying to tell me that the mods are biased? And would not warn atheists for insulting religious people, but would wanr religious people for insulting atheists? I don't think that's right, even if the forum is majority Atheist.

Everyone: Keep it civil.

I don't see anything wrong with creating a mouse with human-like problem solving skills and pattern recognition. At the same time I don't see any practical value in such a rodent. This experiment is interesting and it might help to develop useful techniques, but I don't think you'll see scientists taking this too far. The cost to benefit ratio is non-existant and spin doctors would be all over it (not that they aren't already).

Edit: I wonder... would this mouse have human instincts and desires? Are human instincts and our problem solving skills and pattern recognition one and the same? Or are such things as communication independent of those two? If humans have a hard-wired desire to communicate how would the mouse feel about having his abilities stunted? The only answer to that question I can think of is to counter it by creating a senario where lifeforms with communication skills 'superior' to our own (say, telepathy). They might feel that we're frustrated by not being able to communicate telepathically, but in reality it doesn't bother us all that much.

How about feelings, like love, hate, and humor (for lack of a better term). Love and hate would be the result of a complex series of reactions building on top of each other. How would a mouse react to this? Humor, as in laughter, is a reaction to a stimulus that we find absurd. Would a mouse laugh at the same things a young baby would? How would it laugh?

I could think of other questions, but I keep coming to the same answer. Comparing the mouse to a human is like the previously mentioned superior being comparing a human to itself. It's not really a comparison of one lifeform to another as it is one lifeform putting itself (it assumes that all of its species are very similar to itself and would react in all the same ways it would, and it might be right) in the lower lifeforms shoes and wondering how it would feel to be in such a body. Asking the mouse how it feels to have primitive vocal chords is like asking a midget how it feels to be short. The midget has never been tall so it really doesn't have anything to compare its situation to. He might have slight pangs of longing to be tall, but he won't lose sleep over it. It would be different if I were to lose my legs and suddenly be three feet tall. Just the same, my questions of the mouse are relative to my own experiences. In short, the problem solves itself and mouse makes do with what it has. At least that's how I'm seeing it. Maybe someone else will come to a different conclusion.

MuhOre: Official Warning - Flaming (Post #9) and flamebaiting (Post #15). Do not feed the trolls.

Fass: Official Warning - Trolling (Posts #6 and #10) and flamebaiting (Post #14). If you want to argue that God is imaginary, then state it explicitly. Do not bait other players on controversial subjects like this.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Game Moderator


hehe...hell jsut froze over.....

hehe...hell jsut froze over.....


I agree that i should've been warned, so i have no complaints, i'm just happy that Fass also got his just desserts.

Back on topic, i don't think there is a religious ruling against it. Can anyone find a serious ruling?

hehe...hell jsut froze over.....


Insert foot in mouth. Hehe

Mebbe the 'furry' mice are going to be bred to keep the furry fandom from absorbing more strangeness?

Insert foot in mouth. Hehe
Yummy, cheese sandwiches anyone?

Insert foot in mouth. Hehe

We all knew Fass was going to be warned for comments like that, the mods/admins aren't biased.

I agree that i should've been warned, so i have no complaints, i'm just happy that Fass also got his just desserts.
You are not a NationStates Moderator. You do not dictate what other players deserve.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

Needs less chimeras and more jihad.

Clearly, the rodents are to be bred so as to teach the over-zealous religious groups to eat their veggies, since we all know they tend to follow the advice of talking animals in regards to plant consumption before anything else.

eh?

When the micepeople come, they will shout and ask, "Can't we all just.. get some cheese?"

(I edited the post. The joke felt flatter after I posted, and don't need to keep the thread derailed after its getting back on track)

Clearly, the rodents are to be bred so as to teach the over-zealous religious groups to eat their veggies, since we all know they tend to follow the advice of talking animals in regards to plant consumption before anything else.

Think of the possibilities of talking animals. Would be kind of cool. Although I dont think I would want my dog waking me up in the middle of the night. "Get your ass out of bed, I gotta go outside". Would be funny though.

Needs less chimeras and more jihad.

Maybe a chimeras jihad?

I agree that i should've been warned, so i have no complaints, i'm just happy that Fass also got his just desserts.

Back on topic, i don't think there is a religious ruling against it. Can anyone find a serious ruling?

On a semi-related tangent, some ten years ago a friend of mine who comes from an Orthodox background was telling me something about research to change a pig so that you could get Kosher bacon... my reaction was "If you're not kidding, I think God would rather you change the law than change his creature."

what happens if i say somehting bad about a mod?

Maybe a chimeras jihad?
*starts singing pinky and the brain*

You think they could take the world over like that?

Osama bin Pinky and Brain Hussein?

(I know, nonsensical post - it's 6am here ya know)

what happens if i say somehting bad about a mod?

I think that falls under the "punishable by death" rule...

*starts singing pinky and the brain*

You think they could take the world over like that?

Osama bin Pinky and Brain Hussein?

(I know, nonsensical post - it's 6am here ya know)

They are bound to make it one day!

Think of the possibilities of talking animals. Would be kind of cool. Although I dont think I would want my dog waking me up in the middle of the night. "Get your ass out of bed, I gotta go outside". Would be funny though.

Honestly, I just find the timing funny.

There's this anime on Cartoon Network called "Full Metal Alchemist".

Some of the recent episodes included a talking human/canine chimera. Some nutjob takes his dog, and his pre-teen daughter, and merges them in to a chimera, that basically looks like a dog with creepy eyes, a blonde mane, and the ability to speak. He had turned his wife in to one some years prior, as well, but she starved herself to death. The kid/dog went and got blasted to death soon after creation. Creepy episode.

On a semi-related tangent, some ten years ago a friend of mine who comes from an Orthodox background was telling me something about research to change a pig so that you could get Kosher bacon... my reaction was "If you're not kidding, I think God would rather you change the law than change his creature."


Kosher Bacon is an oxymoron though...

I don't remember the passage but anyways, you can only eat Land Animals, with split hooves and chew their cud...so unless it is Tofu or a different kosher animal, i don't see how...

They are bound to make it one day!

But they have to cope with Elvira now... how on EARTH are they going to manage to take over the world with that child millstone around their necks?

On a semi-related tangent, some ten years ago a friend of mine who comes from an Orthodox background was telling me something about research to change a pig so that you could get Kosher bacon... my reaction was "If you're not kidding, I think God would rather you change the law than change his creature."

Happen to agree with that. I think if we decide to be God like we will pay the consequences. I dont think we have the maturity as a civilization to handle this kind of science. At least not yet.

But they have to cope with Elvira now... how on EARTH are they going to manage to take over the world with that child millstone around their necks?

Oh yes, the evil Elvira. Forgot about her.

Kosher Bacon is an oxymoron though...

I don't remember the passage but anyways, you can only eat Land Animals, with split hooves and chew their cud...so unless it is Tofu or a different kosher animal, i don't see how...
The reason pigs are not kosher is because they have split hooves but do not chew cud. If scientists can genetically engineer pigs to become grazing animals instead of omnivorous foragers, then these pigs would be kosher.

The reason pigs are not kosher is because they have split hooves but do not chew cud. If scientists can genetically engineer pigs to become grazing animals instead of omnivorous foragers, then these pigs would be kosher.


wouldn't that mean tampering with their brain? would it still constitute as pig then?

what happens if i say somehting bad about a mod?
Well, if it's flaming, the same thing that happens if you said it about anybody else, I would think.

wouldn't that mean tampering with their brain? would it still constitute as pig then?

No, I think you would have a different animal. If it behaves very different from others. Then I think you could classify it as a split from the original species. Evolution through manipulation.

The reason pigs are not kosher is because they have split hooves but do not chew cud. If scientists can genetically engineer pigs to become grazing animals instead of omnivorous foragers, then these pigs would be kosher.

Ooooh! Oooh!
*edits rats and cockroaches genetic data to turn them into grazing animals*

I've solved the hunger problem! Yay! Now everyone can eat those animals we have in absolute floods!

No, I think you would have a different animal. If it behaves very different from others. Then I think you could classify it as a split from the original species. Evolution through manipulation.


Hmm i think it's latin name should be Kosherus Piganus (or however you say pig in latin), and in english it would be..Oy Pig. XD

Eh. Real trick is that it will most likely cause forms of suffering to occur, and that's not good. It also has very debatable scientific merit.

But then, that's the case with many animals humans have bred to begin with. So many of them have genetic disorders that just keep being inbred back in to them over and over.

Hunting dogs, those are reasonable. Cats that can survive colder temperatures, sure.

But toy breeds.. ugh. Anything that guarantees the animal will suffer is just -wrong-.

In regards to brain tissue implantation... it will just mean the rodents will have a more advanced way to suffer, since we're not exactly going to accept them as citizens or somesuch.

Honestly, just sounds like the people involved watched Rats of Nimh too many times. Good movie, mind you, but guess what, full of suffering.

It's ethically worrisome.

The actual act itself, eh, not that big a deal. The deity-oriented arguments really aren't valid, since the various magical creatures can stop anything it doesn't want to happen anyways. But the issues of being humane are fully valid.

I'm all for the advancement of scientific knowledge, but I fail to see how this can add all that much knowledge to us.

What is the hypothesis they're working under, is what I want to know.

Kosher Bacon is an oxymoron though...

I don't remember the passage but anyways, you can only eat Land Animals, with split hooves and chew their cud...so unless it is Tofu or a different kosher animal, i don't see how...

I know... he probably was pulling my leg to see how far he could go before I caught on.

Ooooh! Oooh!
*edits rats and cockroaches genetic data to turn them into grazing animals*

I've solved the hunger problem! Yay! Now everyone can eat those animals we have in absolute floods!


you also have to give them split hooves...even then, i ain't touching no rat or roach. Oo

wouldn't that mean tampering with their brain? would it still constitute as pig then?
Pigs cannot digest grass so their stomachs would have to be reworked. Whatever you'd call the new creature, pig or whatever, the man-made animal's flesh could taste the same as an old-fashioned pig, so you could get 100% kosher bacon, kosher ham, etc.

Hmm i think it's latin name should be Kosherus Piganus (or however you say pig in latin), and in english it would be..Oy Pig. XD

Piggus fattus fattus? Oinkus Oyvey? Swinus Davidus?

But they have to cope with Elvira now... how on EARTH are they going to manage to take over the world with that child millstone around their necks?


...You mean ElMira?

you also have to give them split hooves...even then, i ain't touching no rat or roach. Oo

Damn, I thought I'd solved it!

*makes rats and roaches look like cows instead*

...You mean ElMira?

Woops... as I said before, it's 6am here. I've had no sleep and I'm giddy on caffeine and adrenalin.

Heh. And it was replied to with the wrong spelling too :D

Professor Henry T. Greely, director of the Center for Law and the Biosciences and leader of the committee that considered the proposal, told the San Jose Mercury News, "We concluded that if we see any signs of human brain structures . . . or if the mouse shows human-like behaviors, like improved memory or problem-solving, it's time to stop."

Imagine a "smart mouse" that would escape. Any potential hazards there?

...You mean ElMira?

Ahh yes you are correct. Been a long time since I had seen this one. My kids dont watch it anymore.

Damn, I thought I'd solved it!

*makes rats and roaches look like cows instead*


now they look like and act like cows :). hehe, anyways i g2g bye.

Professor Henry T. Greely, director of the Center for Law and the Biosciences and leader of the committee that considered the proposal, told the San Jose Mercury News, "We concluded that if we see any signs of human brain structures . . . or if the mouse shows human-like behaviors, like improved memory or problem-solving, it's time to stop."

Imagine a "smart mouse" that would escape. Any potential hazards there?

*laughs and points you towards "pinky and the brain" reruns*

Professor Henry T. Greely, director of the Center for Law and the Biosciences and leader of the committee that considered the proposal, told the San Jose Mercury News, "We concluded that if we see any signs of human brain structures . . . or if the mouse shows human-like behaviors, like improved memory or problem-solving, it's time to stop."

Imagine a "smart mouse" that would escape. Any potential hazards there?

The way they multiply the bay area would be overrun in no time. Maybe thats not a bad idea?

The deity-oriented arguments really aren't valid, since the various magical creatures can stop anything it doesn't want to happen anyways. But the issues of being humane are fully valid.

The only reason I brought God into it was the context: an Orthodox Jew telling me about genetic manipulation of the pig to make it Kosher to get around the dietary law forbidding the eating of pork.

Professor Henry T. Greely, director of the Center for Law and the Biosciences and leader of the committee that considered the proposal, told the San Jose Mercury News, "We concluded that if we see any signs of human brain structures . . . or if the mouse shows human-like behaviors, like improved memory or problem-solving, it's time to stop."

Imagine a "smart mouse" that would escape. Any potential hazards there?
Ever see Secret of N.I.M.H.?

Or read Plague Dogs?

Both authors have to be screaming right about now...

Waaaaaaaaaaay more disturbed by this:
Neurobiologist Barry Richmond and his team have done this by blocking the effects of a gene in the brain called D2, which cuts off the link between the monkey's motivation and perceived reward.

Humans have an identical gene.

gives me a shiver...

The only reason I brought God into it was the context: an Orthodox Jew telling me about genetic manipulation of the pig to make it Kosher to get around the dietary law forbidding the eating of pork.

Meh. If they want to eat one of the most unhealthy of the meats available, that also tastes like humans, (but we're saltier), let'em.

Waaaaaaaaaaay more disturbed by this:
gives me a shiver...

Most of human society has been the search for Bondage.

Most of history, politics, and psychology, and much of literature, is centered around it.

Are you really all that surprised?

The Christian in me says this is so wrong.

But I'm keeping an open mind.

But it's still a scary though however combining human gene's with animals and stuff. Plus, if they run out, they'll breed and here cometh a new generation of smart rats. If their so damn hard to kill now, imagine if their smarter. Some say nearly 1/3 of India's rice is consumed by rats. Either us or them starve.

But the research still fascinates me though. Imagine somewhat 100 years down the line, if you want your child to have wings and have a cool crocodile tail to beat up the snotty bully kid next door thats been bombing your postbox. :D

Yep.

The furries are on the way.

Bwahahahahahaha

Oh man do I hope I still have friends in the fandom when the anthros start taking over the planet...

Most of human society has been the search for Bondage.

Most of history, politics, and psychology, and much of literature, is centered around it.

Are you really all that surprised?
You don't need suprise to be horrified.

True.

Most of human society has been the search for Bondage.

Most of history, politics, and psychology, and much of literature, is centered around it.

Are you really all that surprised?
I should be fair, I went looking for other reports on this study (so as not to be suckered into the cackling madman assumption) and found this:
Depressed people, for example, commonly fail to find work rewarding. Sufferers of obsessive-compulsive disorder and bipolar disorder (also known as manic depression) often work frantically, sometimes for little reward.

The study suggests that patients like this may have altered patterns of D2 receptor expression. Researchers can now test this hypothesis further in animal and human studies.


Which comes from Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040809/pf/040809-10_pf.html).

I'm as suseptable(sp) to hysteria as the next guy...I guess...

Ignore Fass he's a complete idiot. He was trying to make a point that G-d doesnt exist.

he's just a sad little retard, that can't comprehend simple things like Supreme Beings and Creationism.

In short, he's a Facist Militant Atheist.

And you must be the mad big retard. Who can't comprehend things not connected to your imaginary friend in the sky. And I think you might qualify as a little higher on the facism scale.

No, I think you would have a different animal. If it behaves very different from others. Then I think you could classify it as a split from the original species. Evolution through manipulation.

Actually, behaviour doesn't define a species in biological terms. If the new form of pig could breed with the old form, and produce viable offspring, they'd both be considered the same species.

Of course, with gene alterations, the chance of there being viable offspring between pig-type-1 and pig-type-2 wouldn't be terribly likely.

Well, I'll state up front that I am an atheist, and tend to lean towards Mill's Utilitarianism whenever confronted with moral dilemmas not directly connected to myself. So, let's weigh up the options.

This research could lead towards massive advances in brain-chemistry and neuroscience, leading towards new drugs and treatments for a huge variety of illnesses. Perhaps we could even develop drugs to block Parkinsons' disease etc., bringing relief to thousands of people wordwide.

On the other hend, many people may have a moral stand-offish attitude towards genetic manipulation of animals. This may not be limited to theists, indeed, those who think human generic manipulation taboo could consider inserting human cells into animals just as bad as the theists.

The research going ahead would (potentially ) more people happy, and therefore, in my opinion, is the moral choice.

i was taking it semi-seriously until i saw the picture of pinky and the brain, and then i just started laughing

so, erm...yea

So er... in a test of bravery, when someone asks the hyrbid "What are you, a man or a mouse?" What will he/she say?

So er... in a test of bravery, when someone asks the hyrbid "What are you, a man or a mouse?" What will he/she say?
This-This, my friends, is someone who understands the severity of the situation. This is a person that sees the true and troubling cunundrum that this mad experiment will create. It is people like this that we will come to rely on when our hubris catches up with us. Well done, friend-Well done...

Actually, behaviour doesn't define a species in biological terms. If the new form of pig could breed with the old form, and produce viable offspring, they'd both be considered the same species.

Of course, with gene alterations, the chance of there being viable offspring between pig-type-1 and pig-type-2 wouldn't be terribly likely.

that wouldn't make them the same species, just the same genus....

Now I thought this was a joke when I first read this. But check this link out. This is really something they are going to do at Stanford University. How many of you think this has gone to far? Do you think this isnt far enough?www.livescience.com/scienceoffiction/technovel_mouse_050217.html (http://www.livescience.com/scienceoffiction/technovel_mouse_050217.html)
people need to SERIOUSLY get a grip. this would not in any way be a "mouse human hybrid." it will not be a mouse with a human consciousness. putting human brain cells into other animals has been done for YEARS AND YEARS. the results are often fascinating to scientists, but they do not (and cannot) result in mice who think like people or any such nonsense.

just another example of why the majority of Americans should never have any say in what scientists are and are not allowed to do...most Americans don't have the faintest idea what they are talking about, when it comes to matters of science.

This-This, my friends, is someone who understands the severity of the situation. This is a person that sees the true and troubling cunundrum that this mad experiment will create. It is people like this that we will come to rely on when our hubris catches up with us. Well done, friend-Well done...

*nods head at the standing ovation given*

Dear friends, and esteemed colleagues, I would like to take this oppurtunity to thank those for recognising my understanding of the severity of the situation.

I would like to thank above all my mother and father, without whom I would not be here today....obviously.


I can only add, that science must not fall into a mousetrap...heh.

people need to SERIOUSLY get a grip. this would not in any way be a "mouse human hybrid." it will not be a mouse with a human consciousness. putting human brain cells into other animals has been done for YEARS AND YEARS. the results are often fascinating to scientists, but they do not (and cannot) result in mice who think like people or any such nonsense.

just another example of why the majority of Americans should never have any say in what scientists are and are not allowed to do...most Americans don't have the faintest idea what they are talking about, when it comes to matters of science.


Nah this wont produce a talking mouse, but the road to evil deeds is paved with good intentions.

I believe that they are actually trying to create a real world land of Redwall, based on the Brain Jacques novels, which will include talking mice, badgersm moles, squirrels, ferrets, weasels, Rapscallions, etc. Most likely they will all form an alliance and take over a meadow, or even possibly the great plains. However, since no one really cares about any of those place, we will probably do nothing. Eventually, someone will get tired of the pesky critters and their sharp swords, or even more likely the shrews will encounter the French, resulting in the most vicous argument of utterly incomprehensible language the world has ever seen. Of course, the shrews will be the only party that knows how to fight, and so will win. But, it will probably start a war. Or, perhaps, the Germans will form an alliance and try to create a new master race of creatures, each of which will be named "Adolf Shrewtler."