NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok....i'm not baiting or anything here, it was something put forwarsd in a sociology class of mine. Is this statement normative or empirical. Normative being based only on belief and empirical being based on measurable fact.

For me, i believe it is more normative than anything. i;m not saying anyone is better than anyone else, but some people have a propensity for other things. Everyone looks different, that;s not equal.

Everyone looks different?

One nose, centered in the middle of the face, check.
Two eyes, one on either side of the nose, check.
Two ears, one on either side of the head, check.
One mouth, centered beneath the nose, in bottom third of face, check.
Two arms, one either side of the body, check.
Two breasts, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check. (Guys too)
Two legs, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check.

Lack of dense body fur except on top of head and genitals, check.


Dunno, all humans look the same to me. Unless of course you're talking about skin color, which I consider just as important as figuring out why in a litter of pups one is brown, one white, and one spotted.

intresting..if all men werwe created equally i would be getting bs

Everyone looks different?

One nose, centered in the middle of the face, check.
Two eyes, one on either side of the nose, check.
Two ears, one on either side of the head, check.
One mouth, centered beneath the nose, in bottom third of face, check.
Two arms, one either side of the body, check.
Two breasts, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check. (Guys too)
Two legs, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check.

Lack of dense body fur except on top of head and genitals, check.


Dunno, all humans look the same to me. Unless of course you're talking about skin color, which I consider just as important as figuring out why in a litter of pups one is brown, one white, and one spotted.

i was just susing that as an example how some poeople have different attributes. Those attributes open areas in life that another person couldn't get to. Once again. i will never say one race, or one person is better at things, i just think that we are not all equal in all respects. perhaps the looking different should have been elaborated upon.

interesting. i would like to say that the statement does correspond with observable fact, as all the people i've met, while not being identical have been equal. but because of the nature of the statement its impossible to investigate every single person in the world (some will be born after you've reached them and some would have died before you've reached them), it would appear that the statement would have to eventually be dependent on your individual belief in it.

Thankfully we don't all look the same, that would be rather boring!

all men are created equal is a political statement

what does equal mean otherwise?

I'm not sure if I believe everyone is equal but I do definitly believe people should have equal opportunities and different qualities should be valued.

I believe that the statement as originally intended to be political. It is as much a statement that all people are born the same and that class is something imposed by society.
The writers of the declaration were trying to set the foundations of a state where someone's birth class would not define the limits set on their life.

Did they succeed? Discuss.

I believe that the statement as originally intended to be political. It is as much a statement that all people are born the same and that class is something imposed by society.
The writers of the declaration were trying to set the foundations of a state where someone's birth class would not define the limits set on their life.

Did they succeed? Discuss.

I would say that we are all equal at birth. Given that you develop normally as a fetus. What the differences between people is how they are raised. I think that intelligence is partly a product of the stimulation that you get as a child. If you get the proper stimulation to allow your brain to grow at a normal rate. Then you will be a well adjusted human. But if you are somehow stifled in childhood you will have a problem developing a normal brain function. Im not sure if they have done studies on this. I bet if you took two identical twins. Seperated them at birth. Taught one of them music, mathematics, languages, science at a very young age. Then the other you set in front of the tv like alot of parents do. Odds are you will get two different IQ levels for the two genetically identical humans. Interesting debate I think.

id google that question if i were you, Marrakech II (meaning someone with a good internet connection). i seem to recall that indentical twins raised apart have remarkably simliar iqs.

how about "we're all god's children!"

well what makes Jesus special then? =P

id google that question if i were you, Marrakech II (meaning someone with a good internet connection). i seem to recall that indentical twins raised apart have remarkably simliar iqs.

We do. I personally am a twin, but have been raised very close to my sister. We share many common traits, and at times we are thinking the exact same thing. So... going by that, the only all men could be created equal would be for there to be one common mother, and I don't believe that that is true for the world with which we currently live in.

I personally believe that no person should be viewed as being less than, or more than another person when it comes to political or financial situations. However, I can easily say that certain races of men and women are better at athleticism, while other races may be better at say... dictation, or business-planning. That being said, there are a few exceptions to this rule, and that is seen quite regularly in the world today. So, although I believe race can play a major role in whether or not certain people are equal within certain mediums, I also believe that, overall, all men and women are created equal, physical descrepancies aside.

Like someone else said it's political. I never thought it actually meant people are created equal or that we are equal. I've always thought it just meant that people do not deserve more than other people based on their class, ethnicity, handicaps, etc. Obviously that isn't the way it works, but it's a good idea.

equal does not mean the same. Most folks fail to comprehend that.

equal does not mean the same. Most folks fail to comprehend that.

e·qual Audio pronunciation of "equal" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kwl)
adj.

1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.
2. Mathematics. Being the same or identical to in value.

tr.v. e·qualed, or e·qualled e·qual·ing, or e·qual·ling e·quals or e·quals

1. To be equal to, especially in value.

Main Entry: equal
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 : like in quality, nature, or status
2 : like for each member of a group, class, or society
3 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

equal

adj 1: well matched; having the same quantity, value, or measure as another; "on equal terms"; "all men are equal before the law"

www.dictionary.com

It's pretty much means the same.

No one is equal. Not one. To say all men are equal is stupid, and a waste of breath, beause it isn't true. There will always be class, race, ethnic, political, intellectual, social, and economic dividers.

Ok....i'm not baiting or anything here, it was something put forwarsd in a sociology class of mine. Is this statement normative or empirical. Normative being based only on belief and empirical being based on measurable fact.

For me, i believe it is more normative than anything. i;m not saying anyone is better than anyone else, but some people have a propensity for other things. Everyone looks different, that;s not equal.
I'm not sure, but I suspect that you're referring to the US Declaration of Independence here. If so, the phrase is intended to imply that all men are created equal "before the law," and "in the eyes of God." So I suppose the statement would be considered initially "normative" with the intention of making it "empirical."

Everyone looks different?

One nose, centered in the middle of the face, check.
Two eyes, one on either side of the nose, check.
Two ears, one on either side of the head, check.
One mouth, centered beneath the nose, in bottom third of face, check.
Two arms, one either side of the body, check.
Two breasts, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check. (Guys too)
Two legs, one on either side of the centerline of the body, check.

Lack of dense body fur except on top of head and genitals, check.


Silly person. There are millions of people worldwide who don't conform to that list.

Well, according to the Constitution [Declaration of Independence? - historic documents are not my forte], God created all people equal, so I think that all the sum merits and skills an individual has total up to 100%.

For example, a lot of people out there who society doesn't think are intelligent as others perform highly specialized jobs. I.E. if your mechanic say has an IQ of 90 that might make him less intelligent then a client with an IQ of 160, but the smart client probably has only a basic understanding of how a car works.

Or somebody might only have a 75 IQ, but have a great compassion for other people and the ability to apply him or herself with great dedication to a monumental task. (Did I mention I watched Forrest Gump again last night?)

And someone painfully smart could lack necessarily social skills, detracting from their overall contribution to bring them back to the base-line norm.

Plus we also have to consider that some people outright refuse to live up to their potential. It's not that they can't, but that they haven't learned their potential, or don't want to work at it, or gave up their capacity to dream.

Sorry to pontificate but that kinda summarizes my thoughts.

...nothing as unjust as the equal treatment of unequals...

id google that question if i were you, Marrakech II (meaning someone with a good internet connection). i seem to recall that indentical twins raised apart have remarkably simliar iqs.


Followed your advice here. Got a link. It shows some genetic connection. But not the same Iq for both identical twins. Read this and see what you think.www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psychology/IQ/plomin.html (http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psychology/IQ/plomin.html)
BTW I am a twin also. My brother and I are very close on the Iq scale. Although we were raised together.

The statement "All men are created equal" means basically that everyone has equal moral worth at birth and it is immoral to discriminate.

No one is equal. Not one. To say all men are equal is stupid, and a waste of breath, beause it isn't true. There will always be class, race, ethnic, political, intellectual, social, and economic dividers.
equatily before the law is NOT a waste of breath. it is an ideal to be worked for. the closer we get to it, the better our society is.

Followed your advice here. Got a link. It shows some genetic connection. But not the same Iq for both identical twins. Read this and see what you think.www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psychology/IQ/plomin.html (http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psychology/IQ/plomin.html)
BTW I am a twin also. My brother and I are very close on the Iq scale. Although we were raised together.
thanks for the link, marrakech, but its way too much for an old woman on a sunday morning.

the iqs of indentical twins shouldnt be the exact same number (do you get the same number every time you do a new iq test?) but within a few points of each other maybe. like twin A is 100, twin b should be 95-105. (i dont know what the standard deviation is on an iq test so i dont know how good that guess was).

All men are created equal?

even the homeless... even the handicapt... the hungry... the week...the politicians...the women and men... thecorrporote gurus?!...

who ever thought that by one simple sentence you could generalize all humanity... or were the only talking about men? You cant give everyone equality becouse it is B.S. and it is impossible... we are not clones of each other... not in mind, body, morality or anythying else... that we are seperate from the animals yes in that way we are equal...but truly is it not the greatest political ploy to make everyone belive they are going to be happy/equal!

now were do i remember this from... OH YA USSR! :eek: :eek:

I'm no man *stabs a random Nazgul in the face*

While the men argue about this, let the women take over the world *giggle*

The statement "All men are created equal" means basically that everyone has equal moral worth at birth and it is immoral to discriminate.


At birth. They quickly change after that.

I'm no man *stabs a random Nazgul in the face*

While the men argue about this, let the women take over the world *giggle*
hahhahahah

im right there with you, sister!

thanks for the link, marrakech, but its way too much for an old woman on a sunday morning.

the iqs of indentical twins shouldnt be the exact same number (do you get the same number every time you do a new iq test?) but within a few points of each other maybe. like twin A is 100, twin b should be 95-105. (i dont know what the standard deviation is on an iq test so i dont know how good that guess was).

Well I have taken it 3 times with my brother. Our difference ranges only 1-3 points. Our high end range is within those same numbers.

Well, according to the Constitution [Declaration of Independence? - historic documents are not my forte], God created all people equal, so I think that all the sum merits and skills an individual has total up to 100%.

For example, a lot of people out there who society doesn't think are intelligent as others perform highly specialized jobs. I.E. if your mechanic say has an IQ of 90 that might make him less intelligent then a client with an IQ of 160, but the smart client probably has only a basic understanding of how a car works.

Or somebody might only have a 75 IQ, but have a great compassion for other people and the ability to apply him or herself with great dedication to a monumental task. (Did I mention I watched Forrest Gump again last night?)

And someone painfully smart could lack necessarily social skills, detracting from their overall contribution to bring them back to the base-line norm.

Plus we also have to consider that some people outright refuse to live up to their potential. It's not that they can't, but that they haven't learned their potential, or don't want to work at it, or gave up their capacity to dream.



1. Two-thirds of Americans cannot tell the difference between the declaration of independence and the constitution. The DOI is not a legal document anyways.

2. The mechanic is working to the best of his ability that his IQ will allow him to work to. The person with an IQ of 160 is capable of understanding how a car works and such, but doesn't because the mechanic can do it.

3. I've never seen Forest Gump, so I don't know anything about it.

4. Its just that people of like IQ's get along better, and there are less people at the top, so they appearingly have lower social skills than the middle.

5. You're talking about blacks and mexicans. http://www.arthurhu.com/index/aintell.htm#spectrum

All men are created equal, but all body parts are not.

All men are created equal, but all body parts are not.

Then no one is equal, because we are constructed of body parts that are together.

e·qual Audio pronunciation of "equal" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kwl)
adj.

1. Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.
2. Mathematics. Being the same or identical to in value.

tr.v. e·qualed, or e·qualled e·qual·ing, or e·qual·ling e·quals or e·quals

1. To be equal to, especially in value.

Main Entry: equal
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin aequalis, from aequus level, equal
1 : like in quality, nature, or status
2 : like for each member of a group, class, or society
3 : regarding or affecting all objects in the same way : IMPARTIAL

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

equal

adj 1: well matched; having the same quantity, value, or measure as another; "on equal terms"; "all men are equal before the law"

www.dictionary.com

It's pretty much means the same.
March and October have and equal number of days. Only an imbecile would consider them to be the same.
All men are created with equal rights and needs. These people are not, however, the same.

All men are born the same exact way(using different methods, but that is stretching it), so all are factually created equal.

March and October have and equal number of days. Only an imbecile would consider them to be the same.
All men are created with equal rights and needs. These people are not, however, the same.

But they have an equal number of days. All men should have equal rights, they are not the same but they should have the same rights.

Equal means the same.

Then no one is equal, because we are constructed of body parts that are together.

Well I was making a litte joke, but in all seriousness I do believe that all people are equal - not physically - but equal in another way. No life nor soul is worth more than another in the long run - hence, every life is equal. This is not to say there aren't "good" or "bad" people, though - but even if a person is "bad", they have the potential to be good. That's why I believe war, even in its noblest cause, is somewhat of a "necessary" evil. When you get down to it, no matter what side you're on, people are losing their lives.

To quote my favorite band, Thrice: "Don't we all know life is sacred? Don't we all know we bleed the same red blood?"

I do believe the idea has been taken out of it's context. "All men are created equal" was only meant to infer that we are all endowed with certain inalienable rights. By "equal", the Founding Fathers weren't saying that everyone had the same skill, the same intelligence, the same strength and the same class. They were saying that because we are all part of the same species - humanity - that we are all entitled to certain rights and liberties by virtue of that single fact.

I voted it was an empirical fact. They based it on science and some pretty good philosophy. It was kinda weird, and not EXACTLY empirical, but it certainly wasn't normative.

It is both normative and empirical.

Why people should see a contradiction in that is beyond me.

Well I was making a litte joke, but in all seriousness I do believe that all people are equal - not physically - but equal in another way. No life nor soul is worth more than another in the long run - hence, every life is equal. This is not to say there aren't "good" or "bad" people, though - but even if a person is "bad", they have the potential to be good. That's why I believe war, even in its noblest cause, is somewhat of a "necessary" evil. When you get down to it, no matter what side you're on, people are losing their lives.

To quote my favorite band, Thrice: "Don't we all know life is sacred? Don't we all know we bleed the same red blood?"

Elect like me, are not the same as reprobate. Thus, we are not equal.

its more of all men are created equal but do all men live equal....but yes depending on your family all men are not created equal...its just a fact of capatolism

If we're talking about people being equal in abilities, then the answer is absolutely no. But people are created equal in dignity and rights.

even though everyone is different, some in minor ways, others in major ways to each other, it's a shame that people have to descriminate solely based on what they see.

Silly person. There are millions of people worldwide who don't conform to that list.


;) Persons who have not had some sort of accident, be it genetic or physical, don't look like that?

How many people do you know with both eyes on the same side of their nose? ;) Outside of a Picasso painting, I mean?

Elect like me, are not the same as reprobate. Thus, we are not equal.


(Colossians 3:12-15 NKJV) Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; {13} bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. {14} But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. {15} And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.

(Colossians 3:12-15 NKJV) Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; {13} bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. {14} But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. {15} And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful.

Oh thanks, I didn't realize you were Calvinist.

Ok....i'm not baiting or anything here, it was something put forwarsd in a sociology class of mine. Is this statement normative or empirical. Normative being based only on belief and empirical being based on measurable fact.

For me, i believe it is more normative than anything. i;m not saying anyone is better than anyone else, but some people have a propensity for other things. Everyone looks different, that;s not equal.
normative, obviously; that statement refers to the belief that all human beings have equal "moral" value, regardless of the obvious fact that human beings are virtually never exactly equal in any category you can measure. empirically speaking, human beings aren't equal at all, but one can still say that all human beings should be equal under the law or should be granted equal "moral" value...it's a subjective judgment, of course, but there's nothing wrong with that.

It's clearly normative and mostly deals with equal before the law rather than having equal skills and liabilities.

People are neither created equal nor afforded equal rights and liberties by natural law or moral law. It's only self-evident if we hold it to be so.

But we really oughta, dontcha know.