NationStates Jolt Archive

I thought we should get together a bit and discuss child-raising issues, techniques, philosophies and such…no doubt we’ll get some spam about how children should be vacuum packed for freshness, but I think we could get some interesting thoughts flowing:)

For one...how do you deal with discipline issues in your family? (to spank, or not to spank...)

To be quite honest, let your kid out on a LONG leash, be frank and open, and don't be a hypocrite. Make sure they know their heritage and teach them to respect the elderly and the handicapped, beyond that they can do whatever the hell the want.

Spanking is stupid and instills in a child that hitting is a way to react.

Spanking is stupid and instills in a child that hitting is a way to react.
You can go back to your first (misspelled) post and delete it if you wish, rather than posting twice:)

Could people please state their credentials as well? (parent, not a parent)...because frankly, you may have a lot of opinions as someone without kids, but you'd be amazed at how much the reality of the situation can change your mind on certain things.

I agree about spanking though...I only do it if my kid has done something really dangerous that needs an immediate, negative reaction. I've seen other kids who get spanked often and don't react to it any more. I save it for really serious situations.

Spanking is a last resort punishment, but it has to be there as a deterrent. Kids are smart, they will push the limits. If they discover that the limits are not enforced then they push beyond these.
I have an eight year old. This year, 2005, he has been spanked, mildly, once. This was after repeated offences with repeated warnings and losses of priveleges etc.

There are many child psychologists who argue that spanking a child only teaches them violence. I, however only accept advice from child psychologists who have children of their own. (There are surprisingly few of these.) One in particular comes to mind, who finally discoverd the value of a particularly solid tome on developmental psychology. After years of applying the theories therein contained, she finally lost her patience and applied the tome to the buttocks of her own miscreant child. Instant improval in behaviour. From that point on the kids in that house would tell each other to behave, under threat of "mom will get the book"

My son is, according to the parents of his school mates, a well behaved and polite boy, if a little over energetic at times. To me, this description fits a well adjusted eight year old. He is loving and honest with us. After he has been spanked, he will tend to sit and cry. The essential things about spanking:
Last resort.
Make sure the child knows it will happen if they continue with the behaviour.
Explain why, before and after.
Always show your child that you love them.

I'm an adoptive mother of 4 and grandma to 9. Beat them credentials! :p

I never have spanked a child. It does give a kid the idea that hitting is OK. I can list tons of child-rearing techniques that I have used, but I'm pretty sleepy. I'll check in in the morning and jump into the discussion.

Nite nite all.....

I'm 16, not dating yet; when I find that special somebody that I settle down with, I'll keep any advice I find here in mind.

I'm for spanking. Especially when a child is still young and doesn't understand words. I'm currently doing a research on it for my Human Communications.. anyway.. here's a snippet from a website

http://www.cycad.com/cgi-bin/pinc/july97/taylor-spanking.html


warm/disciplined-children will value adult approval, internalise rules and be rule abiding.
warm /permissive-children will be self-confident and socially outgoing but will frequently ignore or bend the rules-i.e. spoiled but affable
cold/disciplined-children will be anxious and sullen but compliant. their anger will be turned in on themselves. If the parents are religious they will reject their parents' religion.
cold/permissive-children will be hostile and rule-defying, with a high probability of delinquency.


But Imo.. It really depends on the child and how naughty he is. If a child is a very good and easily controlled kid, why the heck do you want to spank him? If he's a hellraiser.. and even verbal punishment doens't work.. you need to take extra measures like Alien Born says. :p

Alien Born: Your a teacher right? So I guess you'll probably see the worst kids school can offer. :D

One thing I've gotten flack for is letting my daughters get loud or boisterous (one is 1, the other 3). I had a friend over the other day, and the girls were doing their thing, and I could see her wince every time they shrieked or "scared" each other (a favourite game). She kept shushing them....and I was thinking...why should I make them be quiet in their own home? What purpose does that serve? They aren't doing anything wrong...and they deserve to be kids...I guess my tolerance level is higher or something.

In public however, I'm a bit torn. My 3 year old has a very loud voice, and we are teaching her how to use her voice differently...to speak softly in certain situations and not in others. However, being young, she often forgets and gets excited when we go out. The GLARES I get from people! You'd think she was having a tantrum on the floor instead of just talking overly loud...do people really think kids should be seen and not heard?

Since I've had kids, I've been amazed at the anti-child attitude. My kids were born in the North, where people tend to be much more child-friendly...when I moved back down South, it seems like people just want you to stay home with your kids unless they remain absolutely silent and don't move around too much. ???? Don't these people remember being kids? It's not like my kids are running around pulling things off shelves and spitting at people...sometimes they get cranky, and cry a little, or talk loud, but so do adults:)

One thing I try to remember is: Is what I'm doing something I would do to an adult? We often say or do things to kids...or expect things of them that simply make no sense. Like telling them to stop bothering you if you're watching tv or reading a book...would you speak that way to an adult? Why shouldn't they get your attention? Or dragging them around a shopping mall and getting upset when they finally lose their patience...would you drag your spouse around, never let him or her look at anything they might be interested in, all the while reminding them to be quiet and not move around too much? Wouldn't that treatment make you lose your cool too?

The biggest question I ask myself before I react to anything is, "Does it really matter"? So they're banging pots and pans...and they're having a wonderful time. Does it really matter that they be quiet? Eventually they'll tire of it. Eventually.

That's what tylenol is for!

lol

Great advice in here! Well i pretend to know because I am childless and plan to stay that way forever. I guess that I am just selfish and want my time to myself. Plus I have absolutely no desire to have kids and neither does my soon to be wife ;)

One thing I try to remember is: Is what I'm doing something I would do to an adult? We often say or do things to kids...or expect things of them that simply make no sense. Like telling them to stop bothering you if you're watching tv or reading a book...would you speak that way to an adult? Why shouldn't they get your attention? Or dragging them around a shopping mall and getting upset when they finally lose their patience...would you drag your spouse around, never let him or her look at anything they might be interested in, all the while reminding them to be quiet and not move around too much? Wouldn't that treatment make you lose your cool too?

The biggest question I ask myself before I react to anything is, "Does it really matter"? So they're banging pots and pans...and they're having a wonderful time. Does it really matter that they be quiet? Eventually they'll tire of it. Eventually.

That's what tylenol is for!

So, your teaching them that when they grow up, they can do anything they want, and not care about anyone else? I'd sure hate to be around them....

So, your teaching them that when they grow up, they can do anything they want, and not care about anyone else? I'd sure hate to be around them....
What makes you think that?

lol

Great advice in here! Well i pretend to know because I am childless and plan to stay that way forever. I guess that I am just selfish and want my time to myself. Plus I have absolutely no desire to have kids and neither does my soon to be wife ;)

Well it depends on how old you are. When you start hitting into your thirties you'll be thinking otherwise. :D

Illyan...again, my big question has to be, "Does it really matter?"

Let me explain...say the kids are banging pots and pans.

It matters if someone is trying to sleep.

It matters if I have guests and we are trying not to drive them away:)

It matters if I have a splitting headache and I can't handle it.

It does NOT matter if none of the above apply, or if nothing is happening that means they shouldn't be doing it.

Making them stop, no matter what is just showing them that moms and dads can do whatever they want, with no reason, and they simply have to obey them. That isn't teaching natural consequences, it is teaching them obedience. Obedient children tend to only be obedient when someone is watching them. Children who understand natural consequences are more responsible. I want responsible kids, not obedient ones. If I wanted obedience, I'd get a dog.

Children running riot in their own homes is fine. I have no problem with that. However children running riot in other peoles homes is another matter. As are children running riot in public spaces.
There is nothing much more effective at spoiling a good meal in a restaurant than someone elses kids playing tag, screaming at the top of their lungs, whilst they carreen around your table. Screaming and shouting in the cinema can be a bad idea as well.
If you can ensure that your kids know when and where such behaviour is inappropriate, then let them run riot. If not, then some limits have to be placed. Kids, like the rest of us live in society. Thius society generally gives them more leeway than it does to adults (There are some grumpy exceptions though). This is not a license for abuse of others though. Keep it within reason.

The noise of kids is good to hear, but not when you have to finish an essay for the following morning. Tylenol does not help there.

Well it depends on how old you are. When you start hitting into your thirties you'll be thinking otherwise. :D

I'm thirty :) thirty one in April - just bought a house with my fiancee and loving the free life. I don't see this world as a good place to bring kids into anyway, but that is just IMO. I figure maybe in my 50's if I change my mind we will adopt or something.

Which brings me to the whole philosophy behind my child-rearing in terms of discipline: Natural consequences.

If my daughter throws her juice on the floor, do I yell at her and send her to her room? What the heck does that teach her? No...I make her clean up her mess, and let me tell ya...it takes a lot of scrubbing to get grape juice off the floor:). Yeah, that's right...I make a three year old scrub the floor!

When my daughter hits her sister, she has to apologize (and really mean it...that angry "SORRY!" doesn't work with me), kiss her, and do something nice for her. I threw in that last one after she learned the sorry and the kiss, because she was using those two things as carte blanche to be mean to people for a while. Now that she has to think of something nice to do, it isn't as much fun:)

lol

Great advice in here! Well i pretend to know because I am childless and plan to stay that way forever. I guess that I am just selfish and want my time to myself. Plus I have absolutely no desire to have kids and neither does my soon to be wife
Well it depends on how old you are. When you start hitting into your thirties you'll be thinking otherwise. :D

Make your own decisions on this. Do not be pressured by culture, relatives, the media or anyone or anything else. It is too important a decison for you to get it wrong.

Make your own decisions on this. Do not be pressured by culture, relatives, the media or anyone or anything else. It is too important a decison for you to get it wrong.


I know, it seems people actually can't believe that I don't ever want kids. I have actually put thought into why.

Honestly, the way a kid is raised to me is really important and I think that people should be required to get licenses to be parents. This may seem liek an extreme idea but what I mean is that people wont get govt. assistance unless they go thru and pass a parenting class. I am sure there are a lot of different ways to raise a child but there should be some basic donts ya know? well some helful do's as well.

Children running riot in their own homes is fine. I have no problem with that. However children running riot in other peoles homes is another matter. As are children running riot in public spaces.

Yup. However, my kid talking a bit loud (before I get her to understand that she needs to use her quiet voice) in public should not warrant the hateful looks or comments I've had the misfortune to encounter. I think the worst case of that is on the plane...living in the North, I had to fly down to visit famliy, and when I had the one baby, I flew down about 4 times year. She was usually pretty good, until we were close to landing, and her ears really bothered her. She'd scream and scream, but what the hell can I do about that? She was a baby...and she hurt, and that is how she expressed her pain. If she had an off switch, I'd use it...but I have yet to find that switch.

Nuts to you, old evil lady that said my screaming baby 'ruined' her flight and she should complain for a refund. Witch. Two minutes of screaming out of an otherwise SILENT flight.

Which brings me to the whole philosophy behind my child-rearing in terms of discipline: Natural consequences.

If my daughter throws her juice on the floor, do I yell at her and send her to her room? What the heck does that teach her? No...I make her clean up her mess, and let me tell ya...it takes a lot of scrubbing to get grape juice off the floor:). Yeah, that's right...I make a three year old scrub the floor!

When my daughter hits her sister, she has to apologize (and really mean it...that angry "SORRY!" doesn't work with me), kiss her, and do something nice for her. I threw in that last one after she learned the sorry and the kiss, because she was using those two things as carte blanche to be mean to people for a while. Now that she has to think of something nice to do, it isn't as much fun:)

Natural consequences, fine. But the natural consequence of throwing juice on the floor is a wet and later sticky floor. The consequence of Mom making her do something she does not like actually has nothing natural in it.
It is a fair and fitting punishment though, and a punishment that connects in the mind of the child to the misdemenour is always more effective.

I know, it seems people actually can't believe that I don't ever want kids. I have actually put thought into why.


I know plenty of couples who don't have kids...and are quite happy that way. I think it's a wonderful thing to not be forced into having kids...it SHOULD be a choice for everyone. Some people say it's a selfish thing to remain childless...I just think it makes sense if kids aren't what you want...rather than having them and treating them or raising them poorly.

I know plenty of couples who don't have kids...and are quite happy that way. I think it's a wonderful thing to not be forced into having kids...it SHOULD be a choice for everyone. Some people say it's a selfish thing to remain childless...I just think it makes sense if kids aren't what you want...rather than having them and treating them or raising them poorly.

Yeah our families keep saying "whens the baaby coming?" and I shudder to think if it could be true. I plan to get snipped as soon as I can afford it. I don't have health insurance yet because I just started a new job.

Natural consequences, fine. But the natural consequence of throwing juice on the floor is a wet and later sticky floor. The consequence of Mom making her do something she does not like actually has nothing natural in it.
It is a fair and fitting punishment though, and a punishment that connects in the mind of the child to the misdemenour is always more effective.
I have to disagree with you on the definition, not on the general idea...which is generally what we do, isn't it? Disagree on semantics? :D

The wet and sticky floor is a natural OUTCOME. A natural consequence is what happens due to the outcome. For example, if you tear the sheets off your bed in a rage, you have an unmade bed. That is the outcome. The natural consequence is that you remake the bed. Natural consequences are not about likes or dislikes, they are about what happens based on the outcomes of an action.

Sorry...educational pedagogy at work here...definitions really don't matter because I think we are on the same page.

I have to disagree with you on the definition, not on the general idea...which is generally what we do, isn't it? Disagree on semantics? :D

The wet and sticky floor is a natural OUTCOME. A natural consequence is what happens due to the outcome. For example, if you tear the sheets off your bed in a rage, you have an unmade bed. That is the outcome. The natural consequence is that you remake the bed. Natural consequences are not about likes or dislikes, they are about what happens based on the outcomes of an action.

Sorry...educational pedagogy at work here...definitions really don't matter because I think we are on the same page.

I'll let you off. It's an occupational hazard for both of us.
I would still, however, say that the natural consequence of the bed example would be sleeping in an unmade bed, unless you do something about it yourself. Here is where we had the problem, as my son would simply say, fine, and sleep in an unmade bed.

Although, come to think of it, the juice example is actually a logical consequence, where the bed example is a natural consequnce, because she hates to sleep in an unmade bed. She might not want to clean up the juice, but that is the logical consequence of her throwing it on the floor. I won't press the issue with the bed, because she can sleep in it unmade if she wishes, and it won't affect anyone else but her. Of course, I will help her when she asks because she is very particular about how her blankets are to be arranged.

I shudder to think what she'll be like as a teenager if she already has to have things JUST SO...

You know, until someone else said it, I never thought to ask what your profession was...you aren't a *shudder* teacher too, are you? NO WONDER we always get so damn particular when we discuss things....*shies away nervously* :p

As a teen spanking did nothing for me. The thing my parents do is let me out on a long leash as someone had said before and give me a stern talking to when i screw up.


:headbang:

Honestly, the way a kid is raised to me is really important and I think that people should be required to get licenses to be parents. This may seem liek an extreme idea but what I mean is that people wont get govt. assistance unless they go thru and pass a parenting class. I am sure there are a lot of different ways to raise a child but there should be some basic donts ya know? well some helful do's as well.

Who decides what is the right way to raise a child. How does obtaining a license relate to the practice. If it is anything like a driving license then it is just an administrative nightmare.
What happens to a pregnant women who does not get the license? Forced adoption of a wanted child.
Too many problems for too little benefit. Most of us have a good teacher available anyway, in our own parents. (I know not all of us do OK)

Ok, we've talked a bit about discipline. How about exposure to movies and television? What are your thoughts on those counts?

I for one have given up watching any shows I may want to follow...since they all tend to include some graphic things I don't think are appropriate (and frankly I could do without myself)...shows like CSI, Law and Order (any of them) and so on.

We no longer have cable or satellite. We watch canned movies only, or taped cartoons. Mostly we don't anymore...we listen to music.

However, my nieces are 11 and have watched movies like the Ring, Jeepers Creepers, the Grudge and so on (they love scary movies), and I heartily disapprove (though I keep it to myself...they aren't my kids after all). I think there are some seriously disturbing scenes in those movies that kids shouldn't see. So, I'd say I'm for censorship...or at least for WATCHING those kinds of movies WITH your kids and talking about the disturbing parts.

I know once they have friends, they'll see all sorts of stuff I won't have control over. I just hope they'll be able to talk to me about things that have disturbed them.

Who decides what is the right way to raise a child. How does obtaining a license relate to the practice. If it is anything like a driving license then it is just an administrative nightmare.
What happens to a pregnant women who does not get the license? Forced adoption of a wanted child.
Too many problems for too little benefit. Most of us have a good teacher available anyway, in our own parents. (I know not all of us do OK)

No I was not saying to not let people have kids. Just offer them assistance with their kids (like tax breaks) if they pass a class on basically how to help them have good nutrition and exercise and why you shouldnt give your baby crack and stuff like that :p - I didn't work out the whole system, i just think some people need a class like that and if you pass the class you demonstrated that you could know the correct way (which I know is majorly subjective and makes teh whole system useless, nevertheless I like to think of it as a good plan in my own little world) and therefore you deserve the money you get from the govt. (or the money they let you keep because you have kids).


and yeah I would have loved if my mother learned in class that it was important that you provide a lot of interaction with your kid and give them a lot of love.

Ok, we've talked a bit about discipline. How about exposure to movies and television? What are your thoughts on those counts?

I for one have given up watching any shows I may want to follow...since they all tend to include some graphic things I don't think are appropriate (and frankly I could do without myself)...shows like CSI, Law and Order (any of them) and so on.

We no longer have cable or satellite. We watch canned movies only, or taped cartoons. Mostly we don't anymore...we listen to music.

However, my nieces are 11 and have watched movies like the Ring, Jeepers Creepers, the Grudge and so on (they love scary movies), and I heartily disapprove (though I keep it to myself...they aren't my kids after all). I think there are some seriously disturbing scenes in those movies that kids shouldn't see. So, I'd say I'm for censorship...or at least for WATCHING those kinds of movies WITH your kids and talking about the disturbing parts.

I know once they have friends, they'll see all sorts of stuff I won't have control over. I just hope they'll be able to talk to me about things that have disturbed them.

I saw tons of scary movies and... okay I'm not a good example.

No I was not saying to not let people have kids. Just offer them assistance with their kids (like tax breaks) if they pass a class on basically how to help them have good nutrition and exercise and why you shouldnt give your baby crack and stuff like that :p - I didn't work out the whole system, i just think some people need a class like that and if you pass the class you demonstrated that you could know the correct way (which I know is majorly subjective and makes teh whole system useless, nevertheless I like to think of it as a good plan in my own little world) and therefore you deserve the money you get from the govt. (or the money they let you keep because you have kids).


and yeah I would have loved if my mother learned in class that it was important that you provide a lot of interaction with your kid and give them a lot of love.
Most communities do have such classes. Lots of people just choose not to attend them:(

There are also places like Kid's Cottage that take kids for short periods of time if their parents think they REALLY need a break from them....like if they're going to harm them.

Still...I understand the desire to have some sort of qualifications for parents, but even a university-level course in parenting is not going to guarantee that someone is a good parent.

Education and contraception says I...and the choice to NOT procreate...

I saw tons of scary movies and... okay I'm not a good example.
No I know...some people are better able to handle them than others. I for one STILL don't watch scary movies because they bother me so much and I obsess over them for weeks. Yeah, I'm a freak.

It's more that I don't want to expose my kids to things like some guy slapping his wife or kids around...or someone being killed, or a really sexual scene...I just don't think they're old enough to understand it, and they certainly aren't at the age yet where I can discuss it with them. In the case of my neices...well, seeing these movies won't necessarily warp them (my brother loved scary movies as a kid and is relatively sane...), but their parents have never seen these movies...they have no idea what their kids are watching. I think that bothers me the most.

I am a parent and I have 3 children (2, 4, and 6). I have a few simple guidelines:

1] You, the adult, are in control. You are the one who makes the rules. If you cannot enforce a rule, do not make it. You must set the example and you must be the one who decides what goes where, who does what, and how things work.
2] You must be consistent. Young children are very easily confused. Changing the rules all the time will not work. Think about what you're doing before you do it and do not make rules you cannot enforce. For example: If you want to enforce an 8:00 pm bedtime, do not ever once wait until 7:30 pm to make dinner. BE CONSISTENT!
3] If you say something will happen, then make damn sure it does. If you tell your children you will take them out to pizza if their toys are picked up by 5:30, then if the toys aren't picked up at 5:31, DO NOT take them out for pizza. If the toys are picked up by 5:29, then you damn well better take them out to pizza - even if you're tired, have a headache, or your favorite TV show is about to come on.
4] Spanking is acceptable if it is consistent and warned. Some people have already said in this thread that spanking is wrong ... it isn't. Children need to learn that sometimes their actions lead to harsh consequences. I am reluctant to spank, but if I say something needs to be done lest they face a spanking, I'll be damned if ... well ... see #3.
5] School is an extention of you, not the other way around.
6] TV is not a babysitter.
7] I don't care if you're bored, tired, hungover, have the flu, just had surgery, are hungry, have aliens attacking the house, or whatever excuse you can think of to come up with: Your child is a million times more important than your job. You can get a new job ... you cannot replace your child.
8] Take your child to the grocery store with you. Parents will understand, but for you non-parents, just wait. It is a learning experience for both of you.
9] Eat with your children. Even if it's just peanut butter sandwiches on the floor of the living room in the afternoon. Have at least one meal a day with your child.
10] Be yourself around your children. If you cuss like a sailor, then do so around the kids. If you drink, have a beer in front of the kids. If you smoke cigarettes, don't hide away from the kids to do it. Children need to learn that some things are reserved for adults.
11] If you have more than one kid, don't treat them as little clones of each other. Just because you gave one kid a cookie doesn't mean every other kid gets one too.
12] If you have more than one kid, make sure you set aside times to spend an afternoon with just one of them at a time. Also, don't do the same things with each kid (see #11). If you take your 4 year old to the zoo one afternoon, then take your 6 year old to the movies next weekend.
13] Let them fight.
14] Don't assume they're going to be just like you.
15] Play with them.

Okie ... that's all I've got for now.

Oh i didn't know they offered classes liek that. You should get benefits of some sort for takign it. I just want people to know about them and benefits would get the word out :P

I think there are far too many people that are horrible parents and I feel so sorry for the kid and with the best for his future.

10] Be yourself around your children. If you cuss like a sailor, then do so around the kids. If you drink, have a beer in front of the kids. If you smoke cigarettes, don't hide away from the kids to do it. Children need to learn that some things are reserved for adults.
I particularly like this point:) My parents were very natural around me, and you don't see me cussing like a welder, listening to Frank Zappa, smoking dope like a fiend and...wait...

No really, I don't, except for the Frank Zappa...but they did, and I don't think it hurt me.


11] If you have more than one kid, don't treat them as little clones of each other. Just because you gave one kid a cookie doesn't mean every other kid gets one too.
This one drives me nuts. My neices again as an example...we're paying for guitar lessons. One loves it, the other does it but doesn't really like it. She'd do much better playing soccer or something. So, the one who loves guitar is asking to take piano for a while. She only gets to if the other girl takes it too, even though SHE HAS NO INTEREST AT ALL in piano. It pisses me off...the parents approve of music more than sports, so the one is going to be forced into piano and made miserable. "She'll thank us later" my ass.

Love them equally...that doesn't mean they all have to do the same things.

This was a pretty darn good list! Thanks!

This one drives me nuts. My neices again as an example...we're paying for guitar lessons. One loves it, the other does it but doesn't really like it. She'd do much better playing soccer or something. So, the one who loves guitar is asking to take piano for a while. She only gets to if the other girl takes it too, even though SHE HAS NO INTEREST AT ALL in piano. It pisses me off...the parents approve of music more than sports, so the one is going to be forced into piano and made miserable. "She'll thank us later" my ass.

This same thing drives me nuts about parents. My 6 year old is learning how to play drums and loves baseball. (She's a lot like me that way :D ) I've given her my old drum kit and I take her to Astros games whenever they're in town. My 4 year old likes to dance and loves the flute, so I'm teaching her flute and I take her to the ballet whenever possible. They're different people with different likes. The likes may change, but for now I will let them be who they are and like what they want to like.


Love them equally...that doesn't mean they all have to do the same things.

Damn fine summation. :D

This was a pretty darn good list! Thanks!

Print it out, tape it to your fridge, learn it, love it, live it. :)

Ok, we've talked a bit about discipline. How about exposure to movies and television? What are your thoughts on those counts?

I for one have given up watching any shows I may want to follow...since they all tend to include some graphic things I don't think are appropriate (and frankly I could do without myself)...shows like CSI, Law and Order (any of them) and so on.
What is wrong with children being exposed to representations of reality? Do you still watch the news? There is probably more graphical content on the news than on CSI, or Law and Order. So long as you are prepared to answer their questions I see no harm in allowing exposure to this type of information.


We no longer have cable or satellite. We watch canned movies only, or taped cartoons. Mostly we don't anymore...we listen to music.
You ban Law and order, but allow cartoons for a three year old. I am surprised. Cartoons are the most violent form of television that exists. We, as adults recognise that the violence is not real, but I am not sure that this is that clear to a three year old. (Ian, my son, once asked if we could put a door in the side of the TV for Jerry to use to escape.)


However, my nieces are 11 and have watched movies like the Ring, Jeepers Creepers, the Grudge and so on (they love scary movies), and I heartily disapprove (though I keep it to myself...they aren't my kids after all). I think there are some seriously disturbing scenes in those movies that kids shouldn't see. So, I'd say I'm for censorship...or at least for WATCHING those kinds of movies WITH your kids and talking about the disturbing parts.
Have you seen the ring? I have, it is not that scary or violent. No worse than your average fairy tale. The Grudge is a lit more bloody, but not excessive. Jeepers Creepers I have not seen so no comment. Televison and films should, when possible be watched together and discussed, talked about. This is not just for parent s with kids, this is for all of us.

I know once they have friends, they'll see all sorts of stuff I won't have control over. I just hope they'll be able to talk to me about things that have disturbed them.
If they get used to doing this from the start, then they probably will later. More reason to loosen the reigns a little soon. Having two children, two years apart complicates this a little, as either one can and the other can't or one is a bit behind her friends and the other a little precocious in this respect.

We have satelite (not SKY) and Ian knows how to use the set top box to watch what he wants. He chooses to watch Cartoon Network, Nickleodeon, Jetix, or Animal Planet. Sometimes we all sit down to watch a film, and this can be almost anything. Only explicit gratuitous violence is restricted for him. And this really only because no-one here would enjoy the film anyway. Communication is critical. If Ian is confused by sokmething he asks about it. He sometimes asks a day or so later, but he will ask, and we will answer.

Ian, my son, once asked if we could put a door in the side of the TV for Jerry to use to escape.

HAHAHAH! Really? Sorry ... but that's just cute. :D

What is wrong with children being exposed to representations of reality? Do you still watch the news? There is probably more graphical content on the news than on CSI, or Law and Order. So long as you are prepared to answer their questions I see no harm in allowing exposure to this type of information.
No, the news is out too.

It's not reality...it's an overemphasis on violence. I for one have never been a victim of violence, nor have most people I know...yet these shows (of course being centered around crime), including the news, are overly focused on bad things, rather than good. That isn't my reality.



You ban Law and order, but allow cartoons for a three year old. I am surprised. Cartoons are the most violent form of television that exists. We, as adults recognise that the violence is not real, but I am not sure that this is that clear to a three year old. (Ian, my son, once asked if we could put a door in the side of the TV for Jerry to use to escape.)
Ah, but you make assumptions about which cartoons...Dora the Explorer, Blues Clues, the Magic Schoolbus...not a whit of violence...



Have you seen the ring? I have, it is not that scary or violent. No worse than your average fairy tale. The Grudge is a lit more bloody, but not excessive. Jeepers Creepers I have not seen so no comment. Televison and films should, when possible be watched together and discussed, talked about. This is not just for parent s with kids, this is for all of us.
I did see the Ring, and it scared the CRAP out of me, but I'm wimpy like that:) You're right...the thing that bothers me the most, as I said, is that their parents have no idea if the movies are bloody, sexual, or not.

Ah, but you make assumptions about which cartoons...Dora the Explorer, Blues Clues, the Magic Schoolbus...not a whit of violence...


I dunno, Sinu ... I keep watching Dora in the hopeful anticipation that Boots will go full monkey and tear Dora's heart out while flinging his feces everywhere.

That, and I permanently have the haunting chant from Dora's Pirate Adventure stuck in my head .... "Eesa turn the wheel, turn the wheel Eesa. Eesa turn the wheel, turn the wheel Eesa"

No, the news is out too.

It's not reality...it's an overemphasis on violence. I for one have never been a victim of violence, nor have most people I know...yet these shows (of course being centered around crime), including the news, are overly focused on bad things, rather than good. That isn't my reality.
Well you are lucky then. I have found myself staring down the wrong end of a gun, my son was at school at the time, so he was spared the experience. For me it is reality.


Ah, but you make assumptions about which cartoons...Dora the Explorer, Blues Clues, the Magic Schoolbus...not a whit of violence...
Of course, you have a 3 and 1 year old. Ian won't sit for that type of stuff any more. He is into Yu-Gi-Oh and Yu Yu Hakusho and such like unintelligable things, having passed through Pokemon on the way. Violence, the news, nor the most bloody of war movies has a patch on some cartoons.


I did see the Ring, and it scared the CRAP out of me, but I'm wimpy like that:) You're right...the thing that bothers me the most, as I said, is that their parents have no idea if the movies are bloody, sexual, or not. You have a responsability to know what your kids are watching, playing or reading on the Internet. (Another problem that you don't have yet).
Our aproach is open discussion rather than censorship. But we live in a fairly violent and openly sexual culture anyway (Brazil is not England) so our kids have to know about such things. If they don't they are just more vulnerable.

You have a responsability to know what your kids are watching, playing or reading on the Internet.

My approach to that is the same my dad had with me ....

You can have a computer when you learn how to build one.

Granted, building a computer in the 1970s is a bit different than today, but I like the rule and I'm sticking with it.

One thing I try to remember is: Is what I'm doing something I would do to an adult? We often say or do things to kids...or expect things of them that simply make no sense. Like telling them to stop bothering you if you're watching tv or reading a book...would you speak that way to an adult? Why shouldn't they get your attention? Or dragging them around a shopping mall and getting upset when they finally lose their patience...would you drag your spouse around, never let him or her look at anything they might be interested in, all the while reminding them to be quiet and not move around too much? Wouldn't that treatment make you lose your cool too?

The biggest question I ask myself before I react to anything is, "Does it really matter"? So they're banging pots and pans...and they're having a wonderful time. Does it really matter that they be quiet? Eventually they'll tire of it. Eventually.

That's what tylenol is for!

I'll have to point that out to my wife. We have a little one on the way, but she always complains that I indulge other people's kids too much by letting them climb all over me. The way I see it, if I get tired before they do, then I need the exercise.

I dunno, Sinu ... I keep watching Dora in the hopeful anticipation that Boots will go full monkey and tear Dora's heart out while flinging his feces everywhere.

That, and I permanently have the haunting chant from Dora's Pirate Adventure stuck in my head .... "Eesa turn the wheel, turn the wheel Eesa. Eesa turn the wheel, turn the wheel Eesa"
Hahahhahahahaaa...I didn't say I liked them....man Dora sure does get repetitive...

My daughter LOVES knowing what to expect though...which is why Dora and Blues Clues are still her favourite, though I try to steer her away from the dark side...

LOL at the thought of the flinging of monkey poo...

Hahahhahahahaaa...I didn't say I liked them....man Dora sure does get repetitive...

My daughter LOVES knowing what to expect though...which is why Dora and Blues Clues are still her favourite, though I try to steer her away from the dark side...

LOL at the thought of the flinging of monkey poo...

It's one of those things as a parent, ya know? You watch these kids programs and you want so badly for something interesting to happen, but it never does.

You suffer through them because the kids seem to like it. However, you must indulge your own adult imagination a little. :D

I admit ... I like Dora. I enjoy Dora almost as much as I enjoyed Hello Kitty when I was a young boy (I even still like Hello Kitty now, but don't tell anyone). However, with my adult mind-set, I will always wait for Swiper to just tell Dora to "fuck off" and stop taking her "Swiper no swiping" shit. :D

Oh! As for Blue's Clues, I like that they use some Ameslan (American Sign Language) in there because I am mostly deaf and my kids may need to communicate with me using Ameslan by the time they're teens.

I am a parent and I have 3 children (2, 4, and 6). I have a few simple guidelines:

1] You, the adult, are in control. You are the one who makes the rules. If you cannot enforce a rule, do not make it. You must set the example and you must be the one who decides what goes where, who does what, and how things work.
Check and double check
2] You must be consistent. Young children are very easily confused. Changing the rules all the time will not work. Think about what you're doing before you do it and do not make rules you cannot enforce. For example: If you want to enforce an 8:00 pm bedtime, do not ever once wait until 7:30 pm to make dinner. BE CONSISTENT!
I am not so sure on this one. Young children are highly flexible and generallyt have little time sense. Yes meals on time, as their stomachs do have a time sense, but if there is a good reason to break the routine, break it without worrying. Experience is more important than routine.

3] If you say something will happen, then make damn sure it does. If you tell your children you will take them out to pizza if their toys are picked up by 5:30, then if the toys aren't picked up at 5:31, DO NOT take them out for pizza. If the toys are picked up by 5:29, then you damn well better take them out to pizza - even if you're tired, have a headache, or your favorite TV show is about to come on.
Check, but also aplies to dealing with adults, and has to be reciprocated. If you let the child delay the bath to the morning to finish a game, then the child has to take the bath without complaint.
4] Spanking is acceptable if it is consistent and warned. Some people have already said in this thread that spanking is wrong ... it isn't. Children need to learn that sometimes their actions lead to harsh consequences. I am reluctant to spank, but if I say something needs to be done lest they face a spanking, I'll be damned if ... well ... see #3.
It appears that all the parents here, except Zooke, are in agreement on this.
5] School is an extention of you, not the other way around. Being at school is not being at home. They are different, with different rules and behaviours. Neither one is an extension of the other.
6] TV is not a babysitter. true, but do not restrict it to much either.
7] I don't care if you're bored, tired, hungover, have the flu, just had surgery, are hungry, have aliens attacking the house, or whatever excuse you can think of to come up with: Your child is a million times more important than your job. You can get a new job ... you cannot replace your child. But don't be stupid about it. Your job is good for your child. It provides the food, clothes, heating or AC, games, toys, vacations etc. Yes your child comes first, but you also have to trust others in to be able and competent of taking care of your child.
8] Take your child to the grocery store with you. Parents will understand, but for you non-parents, just wait. It is a learning experience for both of you. Take your child as many places as you can. Do not impose your child on others in an antisocial manner, but give you and the child as wide a range of experience together as possible.
9] Eat with your children. Even if it's just peanut butter sandwiches on the floor of the living room in the afternoon. Have at least one meal a day with your child. Check
10] Be yourself around your children. If you cuss like a sailor, then do so around the kids. If you drink, have a beer in front of the kids. If you smoke cigarettes, don't hide away from the kids to do it. Children need to learn that some things are reserved for adults. Keep the activities legal though. Kids talk a lot, to a lot of people.
11] If you have more than one kid, don't treat them as little clones of each other. Just because you gave one kid a cookie doesn't mean every other kid gets one too.
12] If you have more than one kid, make sure you set aside times to spend an afternoon with just one of them at a time. Also, don't do the same things with each kid (see #11). If you take your 4 year old to the zoo one afternoon, then take your 6 year old to the movies next weekend.
13] Let them fight. No comment, I only have one
14] Don't assume they're going to be just like you. We assume that he will be everything we would hate him to be, then at least we will not be unpleasantly surprised. This does not mean that we assume that he is badly behaved or wrong, just that, as an example, we are atheists, so we assume he will become a bible thumping evangelical priest.
15] Play with them. As often as you can, but do not be held to ransdom to play all the time. You still have your life to live.

Okie ... that's all I've got for now.[/QUOTE]

And yes, really, he did ask us to build that door. This led to a very long and complex conversation with a then five year old about representation and broadcasting and electronics etc. But it was funny.
16] Laugh with them whenever possible.

You have a responsability to know what your kids are watching, playing or reading on the Internet. (Another problem that you don't have yet).
Our aproach is open discussion rather than censorship. But we live in a fairly violent and openly sexual culture anyway (Brazil is not England) so our kids have to know about such things. If they don't they are just more vulnerable.
Let me rephrase my statement on never having been a victim of violence....I have seen a lot of violence in my life, mostly domestic (not in my home, but in the homes of many relatives and friends)...I have seen the affects of drug use, and gambling, and alcoholism, and have lost many people to suicide. However, I've never been mugged (in the country? That'd be kind of weird), though my car WAS stolen, it wasn't in a violent manner (involving myself or my family) etc etc...

Yes, kids have to be aware of how the world works. But I don't think television prepares them for that. We do. Which is why I don't have a problem with my censorship:) I'm not hiding the truth from my kids...I'm just choosing to present it to them via actual conversations, rather than hoping, as Keruvalia said, that Boots will finally put an end to that big-headed freak of nature, Dora the Explorer!

My younger brother watched the Running Man over and over until the videotape broke. Doesn't mean he runs around cutting people up or hunting them for fun and profit:)

But I guess my kids are still a bit young for that...

I'll have to point that out to my wife. We have a little one on the way, but she always complains that I indulge other people's kids too much by letting them climb all over me. The way I see it, if I get tired before they do, then I need the exercise.
Just keep in mind...parents don't need to run around or keep up with their kids...you can be just as involved shouting encouragement from your deck chair! :D

I admit ... I like Dora. I enjoy Dora almost as much as I enjoyed Hello Kitty when I was a young boy (I even still like Hello Kitty now, but don't tell anyone). However, with my adult mind-set, I will always wait for Swiper to just tell Dora to "fuck off" and stop taking her "Swiper no swiping" shit. :D
Oh you so read my mind....and that damn "Map" song...doesn't it just get stuck in your head?

I find myself giving coworkers instructions like, "Print, copy, file the paper. Print, copy, file the paper. Say it with me..." :eek:

Oh! As for Blue's Clues, I like that they use some Ameslan (American Sign Language) in there because I am mostly deaf and my kids may need to communicate with me using Ameslan by the time they're teens.
I really like that...in fact, my daughter signs thank you now, and I never really pointed it out to her, she just picked it up. I mean, why not put that in there? I love Steve, but I hate Joe. He creeps me out.

My approach to that is the same my dad had with me ....

You can have a computer when you learn how to build one.

Granted, building a computer in the 1970s is a bit different than today, but I like the rule and I'm sticking with it.

As all our computers are home built, Ian is quite capable of doing so. But, as you say it is much easier now than in the days of the Altair.
I did consider requiring that he learnt some programing before he was let lose into cyberspace, but I decide I was just being reactionary.

Check and double check
<snipped for brevity>

We may differ on a few points, but I think AB is doin' just fine as a parent. :) Good on you, AB! You just went up at least 50 points on my "respect" scale.

And yes, really, he did ask us to build that door.

Hehehe ... well that's just damn cute any way you slice it. :)

As it is now 04:00 here, and I have an eight year old to deal with tomorrow, Goodnight folks.

I really like that...in fact, my daughter signs thank you now, and I never really pointed it out to her, she just picked it up. I mean, why not put that in there? I love Steve, but I hate Joe. He creeps me out.

Lol ... really? I think Joe is much more cute. :D I like them both, though, and to be honest, I would love to be the next replacement.

Look for Blue's Clues "James" in the future!

Question...what do you feed your children? Young children that is...the older ones tend to have their own preferences...so what did you give them as babies and toddlers?

I have found that most parents around where I live feed their children rather meagre helpings of food...macaroni and cheese, pizza pops, the occasional sandwich...

I make fresh food every three days, and rotate blended soups with a lentil dish and a pinto bean dish. I make yoghurt, and about the only 'baby food' I buy is the fruit, because it's pretty damn good...and no added sugar. My kids eat all the normal things other kids do, but they must be getting like 20 times the calories (good calories mind you...). Seriously...what do others feed their kids, because I'm the only one who sends food to the dayhome with them...

As it is now 04:00 here, and I have an eight year old to deal with tomorrow, Goodnight folks.
Sleep tight and don't like the huge honkin' Brazilian bedbugs devour you whilst you sleep....

Lol ... really? I think Joe is much more cute. :D I like them both, though, and to be honest, I would love to be the next replacement.

Look for Blue's Clues "James" in the future!
I will!

I don't know what it is...Joe just seems a little fake to me...and a little high, not that this is a bad thing...

Actually, he reminds me of one of my brothers. Really weird...but the girls love him (and Joe) so, who am I to complain?

Ah yes, and another question about tv...how much do you let your kids watch per day? I've noticed during the winter that the one has been watching a couple of hours per day (with some days off...the baby isn't interested yet, thankfully!), and I really feel bad about it. If she's been sitting there for more than half an hour, I make a real effort to take her outside (weather permitting) or do something else to get here away for a while...

Still, I'm worried 2 hours is still too much...

Then again, I watched Robin Hood over and over until I memorised it and I don't think it hurt me...

I'm torn on this one. How much is too much?

Question...what do you feed your children?

I cook. I come from a family of cooks and I will always cook. I feed my children what they can handle. I'm Cajun and cut my teeth suckling on a cayenne pepper, but two of my children cannot handle "spicey".

A lot of times I rely on Gina to tell me if something is too much for the kids to handle. It's the nice thing about having a spouse. :D

I tend to cook what I cook.

However, I've gone through my recipes and made "mild" versions of them so that the kids of mine who can't handle it can still eat what I make them. The one like me who has the Cajun mouth, well, I just make sure there's some chilis on the side. :)

Ah yes, and another question about tv...how much do you let your kids watch per day?

My kids don't watch any more than I do ... I watch about 30 minutes a day, by choice.

If I'm with the kids, the TV is never on. Gina watches more than I do, so she's more permissive, but I prefer to play with them and build forts and be goofy.

I tend to cook what I cook.


So you make their food...see, I guess I'm not that weird after all. I didn't realise people COULD buy all their baby food...for one, it's awful stuff, and for another, it's crazy expensive!

For the girls right now, I cut down on salt and use a lot of whole grains (rice, pasta). If I ate half as good as they did I'd be in great health...unfortunately after making the food so much, I can't stand the smell of it. I can't WAIT until I can start making more solid stuff for them, and start to enjoy soups again:(.

They love bannock with bear grease though, which always makes me proud...and my husband, who is Chilean, thrills to see my daughter tear off a piece of bread to sop up the juices from chilean tomato salads, or from bb-q meat....

So you make their food...see, I guess I'm not that weird after all. I didn't realise people COULD buy all their baby food...for one, it's awful stuff, and for another, it's crazy expensive!

Store bought baby food is the worst thing you can do for your children. ( I guess that's advice #16 on my list)

They love bannock with bear grease though, which always makes me proud...and my husband, who is Chilean, thrills to see my daughter tear off a piece of bread to sop up the juices from chilean tomato salads, or from bb-q meat....

Mmkay ... I have *GOT* to come over to your house some time. :D

My kids don't watch any more than I do ... I watch about 30 minutes a day, by choice.

If I'm with the kids, the TV is never on. Gina watches more than I do, so she's more permissive, but I prefer to play with them and build forts and be goofy.
We've really gotten into forts lately...the oldest wasn't interested for a long time, but now she think they're great!

My husband is the tv watcher. I prefer to read...and the girls love reading, or pretending to on their own:)

Sigh...summer will be easier to keep them away from the tv!

Alright, my babs are asleep, and I rarely stay up long past them, since I never get a chance to make up for the sleep I miss! Thanks for the chat...I'll be back some other time to add more. It's good to bounce things off other parent's noggin's (sometimes literally). Everyone I work with is either childless, or their children are grown up, so it's hard to find people with common ground.

Anyway, talk to you later!

Mmkay ... I have *GOT* to come over to your house some time. :D
Just wait until I get them burning sweet grass...teachers always mistake the smell for marijuana and call home all freaked out:).

It'll be an interesting blend of cultures, for sure...they'll be pow-wow dancing and jigging, AND doing traditional Chilean cuecas...

We've really gotten into forts lately...the oldest wasn't interested for a long time, but now she think they're great!


Sorry, a silly thought...if you changed forts to farts in the above quote, wouldn't it just be fun? Since my daughter always makes a big deal out of her farts, laughing hysterically and making sure everyone knows she did it, it actually fits...

Just wait until I get them burning sweet grass...teachers always mistake the smell for marijuana and call home all freaked out:).

It'll be an interesting blend of cultures, for sure...they'll be pow-wow dancing and jigging, AND doing traditional Chilean cuecas...

Oh it'd be great! Sweetgrass mango jambalaya! What a terrific mix of North and South American cultures. :)

I think it would be a blast. My Cajun Muslim family bring its culture to yours. I'm ready to book a plane ticket now! I want my kids knowing that there's more to the world than just what's in arm's length.

Oh it'd be great! Sweetgrass mango jambalaya! What a terrific mix of North and South American cultures. :)

I think it would be a blast. My Cajun Muslim family bring its culture to yours. I'm ready to book a plane ticket now! I want my kids knowing that there's more to the world than just what's in arm's length.
You're welcome any time!

With that, I truly must depart! Yet I have grown more interested in learning about your background....to be investigated at a later date I guess!

For now, good night!

You're welcome any time!

With that, I truly must depart! Yet I have grown more interested in learning about your background....to be investigated at a later date I guess!

For now, good night!


Yes! Goodnight. If you lose this thread, drop me a line at fishpaw@gmail.com

Perhaps our families can mix at some point. :)

I am the father of 5 stepchildren....2 from a first marriage and 3 from this one.

The first 2 are now 19 and 15, and I started raising them when they were 6 and 2. Both got spankings from their mom and myself, usually because of a situation that required immediate discipline (safety was almost always the reason) or when the older one bullied too harshly the younger one. Both are doing great, one is a Marine, and the other is an honor student, big into debate, and has a couple of nations here at Nationstates. Spanking ended at age 12 (for the older) and age 9 for the younger. Grounding and taking away privileges works great on the older kids anyway.

I am now raising a disabled 9 year old, who occasionally needs a spanking when he becomes violent with his younger 6 year old brother. It helps him realize that hitting hurts, but we try to avoid corporal punishment and stick to time out as much as possible, but they know its an option. I have almost never had to spank the little one, he really hates time out.

I also have a 13 year old stepdaughter, and Mom handles the corporal punishment on the rare occasions its needed. Stripping privileges REALLY works on her, especially loosing her allowance. She really hates that one.

The bottom line is you use the disciplinary techniques that are appropriate for the child. Each is after all an individual, and responds differently to diferent things. You have to keep it in mind.

I was raised in a home were I got spankings until about 13, and after that was grounded on the occasions it was needed. But I was a pretty devious teenager and made damned sure I didn't get caught very often. Which is handy when my own teenagers try to tell me stories. Between Mom and myself, we did practically everything you don't want your teenager doing, so its hard for them to come up with stories we haven't used ourselves or heard before. (chuckle)

I have a lot of friends who are parents. They all do different things and some work, some don't.

of the child psychologists, I am not really very impressed with any of them. Except Bill Cosby. I think he is right. Children really do have brain damage. And its contagious.

I'm not a parent but hope to be one in a few years. :)

Illyan...again, my big question has to be, "Does it really matter?"

Let me explain...say the kids are banging pots and pans.

It matters if someone is trying to sleep.

It matters if I have guests and we are trying not to drive them away

It matters if I have a splitting headache and I can't handle it.

It does NOT matter if none of the above apply, or if nothing is happening that means they shouldn't be doing it.

Making them stop, no matter what is just showing them that moms and dads can do whatever they want, with no reason, and they simply have to obey them. That isn't teaching natural consequences, it is teaching them obedience. Obedient children tend to only be obedient when someone is watching them. Children who understand natural consequences are more responsible. I want responsible kids, not obedient ones. If I wanted obedience, I'd get a dog.

That's great advice there. I want my kids to be responsible and considerate, I don't want them to mindlessly obey me. It would be kinda hypocritical as I want them to question society and the world around them in order to really learn...

And people need to realise that respect isn't mindless obedience.

On the food issue, I think my mum used to make my baby food, like puree stuff. Then when I was a bit older, straight into the curries. :p I still love my hot food, although it's embarassing when you non-Indian partner eats hotter food than you. *grumbles* There are loads of pictures of fat little toddler me covered in food, looking very satisfied. *blush*

Edit: And on spanking, I'm not a fan. It's part of that whole unreasonable parenting thing in my book. I'll have to see how things go in practice though. :p

I cook. I come from a family of cooks and I will always cook. I feed my children what they can handle. I'm Cajun and cut my teeth suckling on a cayenne pepper, but two of my children cannot handle "spicey".

A lot of times I rely on Gina to tell me if something is too much for the kids to handle. It's the nice thing about having a spouse. :D

I tend to cook what I cook.

However, I've gone through my recipes and made "mild" versions of them so that the kids of mine who can't handle it can still eat what I make them. The one like me who has the Cajun mouth, well, I just make sure there's some chilis on the side. :)

Another Cajun! I'm married to a Cajun (actually Creole) and he has added a whole new way to view food to my life. He's one of those types that has one meal a day...from the time he gets up until he goes to bed...and stays slim (6'4". 210-220 pounds). I gain weight watching him eat.

On the spanking issue...I have an adversion to physical violence of any kind. I had great parents and was never abused. Mom would get after my butt with a fly-swatter, but Dad didn't have the heart to spank. I took after him. I also adopted 4 kids that had all come from bad homes. Once they learned that they were not going to be beaten and that they would always have unconditional love, respect, encouragement, support, and acceptance, they were eager to please. I guess I was lucky in that respect.

We had a 5 step process on handling bad behavior. If a rule is broken repeatedly...
1. Explain to the child why it is wrong to do something.
2. Explain again, and ask the child if they understand.
3. Have the child repeat why they should not have done such and such. Advise them that there will be consequences, and what they are, if the behavior is repeated.
4. Reinforce the rule, remind of the reason for the rule, and follow through with the punishment promised in step 3. Timeout was very effective for my kids. We are a social bunch and still keep our noses firmly stuck into each others' business.
5. Discuss the problem with the child, remind them of the consequences, and apply liberal doses of love.

Each of my kids were considered special needs kids. I took the attitude they were uniquely challenged. 2 are legally blind, my youngest is dyslexic, and my daughter was epileptic (we lost her due to a brain aneurysm almost 4 years ago). Once they determined where their interests lay, we helped them figure out alternative methods to achieve their goals and dreams. They each became successful in their chosen careers. More importantly, though, all of them became good parents. My 9 grandchildren (we have a set of twins and 2 are adopted...all blessedly "normal") are loved and appreciated as the most important things in my kids' lives. It has always warmed my heart to see my grandchildren go to an aunt or uncle for help, advice, or love as readily as they would go to their own parents. My kids have also accepted their nieces and nephews as their own. When my daughter died, this love and acceptance helped her 2 children through a time that could have been much more devastating had they not had such a strong family network.

Each child is unique. There is no set blueprint to successfully raising a child. The one thing that is common to all is their need for love. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with them. Make kissing and hugging an everyday form of expression. Be twice as quick to praise their good acts as to criticize their mistakes. And never think they are too old or too young to hear "I love you". As a matter of fact, express this emotion to them every chance you get.

Each child is unique. There is no set blueprint to successfully raising a child. The one thing that is common to all is their need for love. Never miss an opportunity to spend time with them. Make kissing and hugging an everyday form of expression. Be twice as quick to praise their good acts as to criticize their mistakes. And never think they are too old or too young to hear "I love you". As a matter of fact, express this emotion to them every chance you get.
*feverishly takes notes*
:) More great advice. This thread is making me feel all maternal, and I don't even have kids yet. :p

*feverishly takes notes*
:) More great advice. This thread is making me feel all maternal, and I don't even have kids yet. :p

Don't worry too much. Something about having a little person looking up at you with trust and love makes all the right things come out in you. You just seem to automatically know what to do. Evaluate your parents with an adult view. Incorporate their methods that you believe were good, and reject or refine the ones you don't agree with. Though I didn't realize it until I became a parent, I probably had the best parents ever made. They were childless for 23 years, so when I made my surprise appearance, they gave me an over-whelming amount of love. It's fair to say I was spoiled rotten...and I still am.

My mother raised 4 children all adopted. My sister has 5 children and I have two. Spanking is stupid. It teaches nothing, except for your kids to be afraid of you. Great way of them never telling you any thing. Parents don't own their children, we are but mere people who try to guide them through so that they may become a productive member of society. Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political. Yet teach them that they will always have choices, they can make good choices or bad choices. As long as you love your kids, cloth them, teach them right from wrong on a basic level, show them compassion and hope they learn from your example, feed them and always be there for them, you're doing a good job as a parent.

My mother raised 4 children all adopted. My sister has 5 children and I have two. Spanking is stupid. It teaches nothing, except for your kids to be afraid of you. Great way of them never telling you any thing. Parents don't own their children, we are but mere people who try to guide them through so that they may become a productive member of society. Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political. Yet teach them that they will always have choices, they can make good choices or bad choices. As long as you love your kids, cloth them, teach them right from wrong on a basic level, show them compassion and hope they learn from your example, feed them and always be there for them, you're doing a good job as a parent.

LOL...don't hold back Steph. Tell us what you really think. I can't say that people who spank are stupid. I know that in the case of my children it would have been counterproductive. It would also have made me turn into a blubbering idiot, giving away my weak spot. I don't think I could have ever spanked a child no matter what. I know that a couple of times, while in public, I have seen children behave so horribly that I wished their parents would swat their butts a good one. I think some of that may be due to my decreasing patience level as I get older.

While I was reading this thread, my wife came home with our 10 year-old son. My 8 year-old daughter promptly rushed off to show her a picture story she'd just made on the PC. My son staggered in through the door in heaps of giggles.

"What's so funny, Dec?"
"Nothing, Dad. It's just fun to laugh."

Does anyone object if I take a moment here to feel smug? :)

While I was reading this thread, my wife came home with our 10 year-old son. My 8 year-old daughter promptly rushed off to show her a picture story she'd just made on the PC. My son staggered in through the door in heaps of giggles.

"What's so funny, Dec?"
"Nothing, Dad. It's just fun to laugh."

Does anyone object if I take a moment here to feel smug? :)

Don't mind at all. Makes it all worth it, doesn't it?

Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political.

LOL, right, who needs to teach kids values when they can learn so much more from TV their little friends and school.

In my household spankings are the direct result of injuring a sibling and that's about it - very uncommon. Time-outs are a bit more frequent. For the older one it is evolving into push-ups. I seldom have to deal punishment since I preceed everything with a 1-2-3 count. 'Three' is a bad thing in my house! I seldom get to 'two'.

For failure to do homework or general irresponsibility it is a loss of privileges. (Computer, xbox, etc) For a job well done there are rewards - which are far more important than punishment. The rewards are not given for standard stuff, but for above and beyond. They are not always tangible. An evening out with dad is a favorite.

One value/skill I am trying to instill is compliments. Each day my kids get no less than one compliment from me. I encourage them to give away at least one compliment a day to anybody. I try to ask them many things about their friends likes/dislikes to teach them to get to know people, let people talk about themselves, and listen.

I think some of that may be due to my decreasing patience level as I get older.

What's THAT supposed to mean? You saying older people have no patience? Up yours!! STFU! Take a long walk off a short pier!

I'm older and I have more patience in my little pinky than you could stuff in that small cavity you call your skull! I got NO time for the likes of YOU nor your elder-bigotry!!!



(this whole post is sarcasm - please enjoy)

Don't mind at all. Makes it all worth it, doesn't it?
;)

Yesterday another poster noted that I had a story to go along with several topics. I've decided to use that as my trademark...sooooo....Story time.....

One day, while shopping for groceries, I had noticed a mother with three boys, ages ranging from about 6-12 (estimate). The boys had been rowdy and a royal pain in the butt throughout. Finally, she stopped dead in her tracks, and said, "Straighten up and stay next to me or I'll run you all over with the buggy and leave you for dead." I was shocked! Then, the oldest threw himself down in front of his mother's shopping cart. At this, she started laughing as did all three of the boys. Naturally, one of the boy's siblings tried to actually run the cart over him. (Gotta love em) After this, the boys were somewhat better behaved and did stay next to their Mom. At first what she said horrified me. But, then, seeing her childrens' reaction and her own, I understood that they had their own method of communicating and interacting and that they all shared a common bond and love.

What's THAT supposed to mean? You saying older people have no patience? Up yours!! STFU! Take a long walk off a short pier!

I'm older and I have more patience in my little pinky than you could stuff in that small cavity you call your skull! I got NO time for the likes of YOU nor your elder-bigotry!!!
(this whole post is sarcasm - please enjoy)

:D About my grandkids I always say that I'm happy to see the little angels show up, but thrilled to death to see the little devils go home.

I don;t think that children should be spanked often, but they need to know that if they do something very wrong, and if nothing else works, that is a deterrant.

I odn;t like alot of noise in general, i don;t like noisy adults and i don;t like noisy kids...especially in a restaurant. It's okay to be loud, obnoxious outside and in certain situations (sporting events, playing) but in public, unless it is in a place where it is generally loud, no screaming. and inside, no screeching.

I know pretty well about kids, i am the oldest of 5 (i am 15 years older than my closest sibling, so i had quite a large part in raising them.) My father spanked kids (not alot ,ut when they needed it) and my mother was borderline verbally-abusive. i don;lt agree with that, but i agree with spanking when necessary.

Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political.


on no, let them be terrors their whole lives and never tell them they are wrong, or hy they are wrong. good idea.

I thought we should get together a bit and discuss child-raising issues, techniques, philosophies and such…no doubt we’ll get some spam about how children should be vacuum packed for freshness, but I think we could get some interesting thoughts flowing:)

For one...how do you deal with discipline issues in your family? (to spank, or not to spank...)


I have found that making them sit in a corner is a good form of punishment. My youngest son(6) thinks that's the worst thing in the world.

I'm only 16 so I'm probably not the best guy to give parenting advice! But I don't think that parents should smack their kids. My dad used to hit me with the belt whenever I did anything wrong. All it did was leave me fearing my dad and I never wanted to be around him. I think it did the job of making sure I was too scared to dare misbehave, but at what cost? It certainly didn't create a pleasant home life. I think that parents should look for other ways.

Originally Posted by Stephistan
Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political.

on no, let them be terrors their whole lives and never tell them they are wrong, or hy they are wrong. good idea.

I think what Steph is saying here is that you should not force your beliefs onto your children, but expose them to other options and let them make their own decisions. She didn't say not to teach them right from wrong and to allow them freewill in everything. She is saying to allow them to make informed decisions.

LOL, right, who needs to teach kids values when they can learn so much more from TV their little friends and school.

That's not what I said. If you think values are only taught from religion and political views, well.. I don't now what to say to you. It's simply not the case. You can teach your children values without religion and without politics.. let them make up their own mind when they get older. It's not our job as a parent to impose our religious or political view on our children, but yet show them they have choices and they may pick different choices then we do, but that doesn't mean they are less in values. Religion and politics does not equal values. I prefer a common sense approach.

Fact is if you push your values on your kids, they are more likely to rebel. They have choices, a parent should not make those choices for them, it's not our job as parents.

As for spanking... I think expert after expert would back up it teaches them nothing but the negative. There is nothing positive that comes from spanking your children, other than some parents are on a power trip or, they simply don't know any better.

That's not what I said. If you think values are only taught from religion and political views, well.. I don't now what to say to you. It's simply not the case. You can teach your children values without religion and without politics.. let them make up their own mind when they get older. It's not our job as a parent to impose our religious or political view on our children, but yet show them they have choices and they may pick different choices then we do, but that doesn't mean they are less in values. Religion and politics does not equal values. I prefer a common sense approach
Not all values are political or religious, nor are politics and religion exclusive to values. However there is overlap and to presume there is not is foolhardy. To expect someone to teach values apart from these would be to expect someone to teach math apart from writing. To wait until they're older would be to throw them out with no foundation upon which to build or maneuver.


Fact is if you push your values on your kids, they are more likely to rebel.
Didn't you just say a parent SHOULD teach values? Now you contradict that? So which is it?

And they are more likely to rebel?? According to whom? Fact is if you don't teach your kids values they will become axe murderers, speak Yiddish and drive SUVs.


As for spanking... I think expert after expert would back up it teaches them nothing but the negative. There is nothing positive that comes from spanking your children, other than some parents are on a power trip or, they simply don't know any better.
Yet oddly it has worked for centuries. I'll let that power-trip/ignorant comment slip and attribute it to your poor judgment. (one) :)

Spanking is not meant to be a positive experience. 'Expert after expert' is insubstantial, not to mention that they are most often trying to sell books and avoid liability if some nutcase takes it too far. If you require 'expert' advice - finish this "Spare the rod..." Then look at the very specific nature of the circumstances which lead to a spanking in my household.

No parent wants to hurt their child - a spank is a last resort for any good parent. There are plenty of idiots in this world who don't know right from wrong, but there are even more intelligent poeple who do. There can be no absolute regarding spankings - on either end of the argument.

Of course, this is seperate from adults who participate in 'recreational' spankings. We can only discuss that if you are a bad girl - A very bad girl.

Not all values are political or religious, nor are politics and religion exclusive to values. However there is overlap and to presume there is not is foolhardy. To expect someone to teach values apart from these would be to expect someone to teach math apart from writing. To wait until they're older would be to throw them out with no foundation upon which to build or maneuver.



I'm sorry, but can you please detail ONE value that cannot be tought without putting it in the context of religion? Because frankly they can all be instilled using a humanist approach of respect for yourself, respect for authority, respect for others, and treating people as you would like to be treated yourself.


And the advantage to teaching morals outside of religion is that should your child eventually reject your religion it will not also imply to them a rejection of the values that you have instilled in them.

patriotism

patriotism


Patriotism requires religion?


You can't love your country without god?



Interesting.


Wrong..... but interesting.

You may want to re-phrase your question / statement #93. I really don't see where it is contrary to anything I've already said. Maybe it's just me, but I find it unclear.

You specifically asked for a value that could NOT come from religion, which I did. Now I don't know where you are coming from. You are attributing the opposite to my statement from what you asked.

Have you not had your coffee yet??

I'm on cup three!

Spanking is a last resort punishment, but it has to be there as a deterrent. Kids are smart, they will push the limits. If they discover that the limits are not enforced then they push beyond these.
I have an eight year old. This year, 2005, he has been spanked, mildly, once. This was after repeated offences with repeated warnings and losses of priveleges etc.

There are many child psychologists who argue that spanking a child only teaches them violence. I, however only accept advice from child psychologists who have children of their own. (There are surprisingly few of these.) One in particular comes to mind, who finally discoverd the value of a particularly solid tome on developmental psychology. After years of applying the theories therein contained, she finally lost her patience and applied the tome to the buttocks of her own miscreant child. Instant improval in behaviour. From that point on the kids in that house would tell each other to behave, under threat of "mom will get the book"

My son is, according to the parents of his school mates, a well behaved and polite boy, if a little over energetic at times. To me, this description fits a well adjusted eight year old. He is loving and honest with us. After he has been spanked, he will tend to sit and cry. The essential things about spanking:
Last resort.
Make sure the child knows it will happen if they continue with the behaviour.
Explain why, before and after.
Always show your child that you love them.
Totally agree.

Errr... no, what I said was "can you please detail ONE value that cannot be tought without putting it in the context of religion" in response to your notion that "To expect someone to teach values apart from these (politics and religion) would be to expect someone to teach math apart from writing."

You seemed to be espousing that some values required religion as a componenent in order that they can be taught. I was asking for an example of a value that a child needed to learn which was required to be put in a religious context in order to teach it.


Nor does Patriotism require a truly political grounding to be taught in the sense that most mean when they are talking politics. After all, love of country falls outside the domain of liberal, libertarian, or conservative viewpoints.

Perhaps a fourth cup is in order for you, because I don't think I was unclear in the least. :p

im the mother of one 18 year old son

you must be consistant with your child. right from the beginning. you love them, you treat them with respect and you dont let them get away with breaking the rules. (no there arent many rules for kids under 1 but the older they get the more rules there are). if you are consistant from the start, you will save yourself many many hour of fighting over things.

NEVER EVER give in to a tantrum even if you were wrong.

EVEN IF YOU WERE WRONG.

if you denied your child something it was OK for her to have and she has a tantrum over it, she doesnt get it until long after the tantrum is over. givng in ONCE means another 100 tantrums until she realizes they no longer work. yes she will have other tantrums but she will learn over time to control her reactions because they dont get her what she wants. if they DO get her what she wants, she just ramps up the tantrum until you give in.

dont expect your child to be more mature than his age. read child development books so you understand how a typical child of his age behaves. dont expect a 4 year old to behave like a 10 year old. losing your temper because your 2 year old looks you right in the eye and says "NO!" is just nuts. its what 2 year olds DO.

set the boundaries where you are comfortable with them. NOT at the limit of what you will tolerate, but where, if the line is crossed, you can still maintain control of yourself. if you put the line at the limit of your tolerance then when it is crossed you will go ape-shit. THE LINE WILL BE CROSSED. thats what kids do. if you are so permissive that "its ok as long as no one dies" someone is going to die.

spanking is never the best choice but for the average child and average parent, it doesnt cause permanent harm. are you SURE you can keep from losing your temper and beating your child? are you SURE you can spank your son and not have him grow up to be physically violent? are you SURE you can spank your daughter and not break her spirit? those are judgements for you to make. spanking is better than no dicipline at all.

as to tv, how many murders and sex acts do you want them to see before they are in highschool? dont park your babies in front of the tv all day every day. dont have them watch adult tv. the tv isnt educational. use it sparingly.

kids under 5 dont belong in school. they should be learning by doing, not by sitting at desks coloring. if they have to be away from you during the day, dont be delusional, there are good places and bad places to put them. do your homework and put them in a good place. if they are with your during the day, make sure they have the kind of enriching experiences that will make them smarter better people.

dont confuse the ability to give them stuff with love.

Besides the basic food, clothing and shelter, children need to know beyond any possible doubt that there is at least one adult human who loves them unconditionally.

"Tough love" says that out of your unconditional love for your child, you will find the inner strength to deny your child those things which are bad for him or her, regardless of your own feelings. In other words, to say "No." Parents must be willing to be parents, not friends or "buddies," to their children out of their great love for them.

Here is a brief list of other things you can do to make sure your child has the best possible chance to not only survive, but to thrive :

Set the best example you possibly can. The old saw about "Don't do as I do, do as I say" no longer works, if it ever did. Your children are watching you, even if they don't appear to be. In order to understand the impact your behavior has on your children, you need to understand yourself as well as possible.

Consistency and truthfulness instill trust and respect in your children for you, and for what you tell them. One very important rule for parents is: never promise anything you're not prepared to actually do. This applies to discipline as well as rewards.

Freedom of speech is always a good concept, especially at home. Not only will your children learn good communication skills and how to think things through, they will give you the opportunity to explain to them why you believe the way you do. A good rule is that there are no "forbidden topics" at your house.

Set asside a few hours each week just for you and your child. This is especially important when you have more than one child. We recommend one evening each week for each child, set asside as his or her time with you without having to share it with anyone else.

Try to discover the things at which your child can excel. Encourage these interests so that all that energy and curiosity will have an acceptable outlet. Sports, while not for every child, can be an excellent way for your child to learn self-confidence, teamwork and self-discipline...and to blow off all that steam!

Give your child the freedom to make mistakes. Failure is a great teacher. I don't mean to imply that you should allow your child to fail without advance warning, but if they aren't willing to listen, explain the possible consequences and then let them fail. Most children will learn rather quickly that mom and dad are good resources.

Know who your child's friends are. If you have serious reservations about one or more of your child's friends, trust your instincts. Teach your child to think about the consequences of being friends with children headed for trouble. Ask your child if he or she wants to become just like their friend(s). The old saying about "If you lie down with dogs, you're going to get up with fleas" has a lot of validity. We tend to adopt the behavior of those with whom we spend time.

Do not be afraid to discipline. A child who is not expected to face the consequences of unacceptable behavior will probably become a resentful and undisciplined adult. I suggest "The Rule of Three" as a guideline for discipline:

The first time a child behaves in an unacceptable way, tell him or her what it was they did and why it was unacceptable, and what the consequences will be if the behavior continues.
The second time the child repeats the unacceptable behavior, remind him or her why the behavior is unacceptable, what the consequences will be, and that this is their last warning.
The third time the child repeats the behavior, impose the consequences you told them would happen if they continued it, and remind them again that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated. Never promise what you do not intend to impose!

Originally Posted by Stephistan
Parents should never put their beliefs on their children, religious or political.



I think what Steph is saying here is that you should not force your beliefs onto your children, but expose them to other options and let them make their own decisions. She didn't say not to teach them right from wrong and to allow them freewill in everything. She is saying to allow them to make informed decisions.
Some well-meaning parents raise their children to accept all points of view as valid. This is all well and good for an adult, who has years of real-world experience upon which to draw. A child has no such experience, and the lack of certainty may lead them to look for moral absolutes in cults and other groups which seem to offer that moral certainty. You do no wrong if you inculcate your own values in your children. Later, when they have experience in the world, you can give them permission to decide what vaules they want to hold.

Errr... no, what I said was "can you please detail ONE value that cannot be tought without putting it in the context of religion" in response to your notion that "To expect someone to teach values apart from these (politics and religion) would be to expect someone to teach math apart from writing."

Ah you're right. I read 'can' instead of 'cannot' no wonder it left me confused.

I think I've already had enough coffee. It is good coffee. makes me awake. Awake, yeah, yes awake. Very awake. Maybe one more cup. Just one. Mmmm, good coffee. Need to be more awake. Ack!


You seemed to be espousing that some values required religion as a componenent in order that they can be taught. I was asking for an example of a value that a child needed to learn which was required to be put in a religious context in order to teach it.
No, reilgion is a value. There are a few values that are unique to the religious - communion, tithe and prayer to name a few. Just as patriotism is a value apart from religion, there are also values that are a component of religion. Same for politics - not necessarily political parties, but political opinions on the environment, abortion and other issues. So you misinterpret where I am coming from. Religion and politics are not a lense through which all values pass, but they absolutely can be a part of a value system.

Originally posted by Sinuhue
Let me explain...say the kids are banging pots and pans.

It matters if someone is trying to sleep.

It matters if I have guests and we are trying not to drive them away

It matters if I have a splitting headache and I can't handle it.

It does NOT matter if none of the above apply, or if nothing is happening that means they shouldn't be doing it.

I have to agree with Sinuhue. I am not a parent and I am only 17. So I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I have been watching my 4 year old cousin since he was a baby. He has been walking and talking since he was 6 months old, and so he has had behavioral problems since I can remember. What Sinuhue says about natural consequences (that children need natural consequences) is true. Adults do whatever they want. This evident to little kids as well as older kids and kids my age. This is not enough justification in their minds. You cannot tell them "because they can't" or "shouldn't" or "because you don't want them to". They want to, and you have done things they don't want you to do. As I continued to watch him, I started having my mother's friend bring her little girl over. The social setting takes him out of his comfort zone. Often when people are taken out of their comfort zone they learn things they often would not otherwise learn. Such as they can't do what they want and they can't always have what they want. Now he's in preschool and has the behavior of a normal child. He only goes there twice a week and ther other 5 days he stays at home with my aunt. So she has been able to witness a huge difference through giving him activities to do, and socializing outside of his family.

Some well-meaning parents raise their children to accept all points of view as valid. This is all well and good for an adult, who has years of real-world experience upon which to draw. A child has no such experience, and the lack of certainty may lead them to look for moral absolutes in cults and other groups which seem to offer that moral certainty. You do no wrong if you inculcate your own values in your children. Later, when they have experience in the world, you can give them permission to decide what vaules they want to hold.

I don't mean to allow your children to think that all points of view are valid. I have found that often a child makes a poor decision because they just didn't think of any better ones or had not been exposed to other points of view. If you sit down with your child, list the possible options, discuss the pros and cons of each one, the child will usually make a good decision.

One more issue I can't stress enough is that if there are two parents in the picture, you have to back each other up. There is nothing worse than a kid figuring out (and they will, at a very early age) that when Daddy says "no", Mommy will say "yes". Whenever my brothers or I asked to do something, the parent we asked would always hold off on an answer until after they talked to the other one. Now of course, that didn't apply to things like, "Can I go down to the pond" or "Please, mum, can I have some more?" However, going over to a friend's house, getting a piercing:), anything a bit big they always talked over with each other and came to consensus. We could never slip anything by them, and we knew we had to tell them our plans in advance or risk blowing them, since Dad was away working a lot, and until he phoned, Mom refused to decide (again...just on the major stuff).

Even if you don't necessarily agree with what your spouse has told the kids, you need to back it up in front of them. If you really disagree with it, talk to your partner later about it. Arguing in front of the kids is a terrible thing...I saw many of my friend's parents do it growing up and it always made me feel terrible...and scared. Talk to each other about your boundaries so you can be clear on them...and don't undermine each other or say bad things about each other to your kids. It's kind of a no-brainer...but plenty of people forget this.

you teach your child values with everything you say and do

if you swear, your children will think bad words are OK

if you point out when a clerk makes an error in your favor, your child learns to be honest.

if you say bad things about people of other races/ethnicities, your child learns to be a bigot.

if you give money to charity your child will learn to be charitable.

if you preach sexual abstinence to your child but spend then night at your girlfriends house, which lesson do you think your child will learn?

if you preach abstinence from drugs and alcohol to your child but come home drunk/high night after night, which lesson do you think your child will learn?

you teach your child values with everything you say and do

if you swear, your children will think bad words are OK

if you point out when a clerk makes an error in your favor, your child learns to be honest.

if you say bad things about people of other races/ethnicities, your child learns to be a bigot.

if you give money to charity your child will learn to be charitable.

if you preach sexual abstinence to your child but spend then night at your girlfriends house, which lesson do you think your child will learn?

if you preach abstinence from drugs and alcohol to your child but come home drunk/high night after night, which lesson do you think your child will learn?
"Do as I say, not as I do" has never worked. :(

your child does not get good self-esteem by being told they are great and that everything they do and say is wonderful. (although you can ruin their self esteem by saying they suck and everything they do and say sucks)

your child will develop their own self esteem by earning it.

give you child the chance to master things appropriate to their age on their own and they will have good self esteem.

kids know when their parents are talking crap to them so praising them for what they know is mediocre work undermines their self esteem. they wonder why their parents need to lie to them about what is obviously 2nd rate work. (yeah some kinds have unreasonable standards and you have to work on that with them)

if your kid does his OWN science fair project and does well, he'll feel great, if YOU do it and he does well, he wont feel great, he'll feel like a fraud. if he does it himself and its not all that good, he can do better next time, dont pretend that crap is gold.

Kids, like adults, need the chance to gain mastery or competency in something. Empty praise is just that...but praise when they have demonstrated a skill (even something as simple as apologising when they've done something wrong) is merited, and important. They also need to feel useful. I don't believe that childhood is marred by work. If you give your children the opportunity to help around the house, at the tasks they are capable of, they will gain the sense that they can make helpful contributions that benefit everyone in the family. Give them a garden plot...or let them help you weed...get them to rake leaves...but don't do it as a punishment, unless their infraction involved the particular task.

It sounds like we're writing the x commandments of child-rearing... :D

I would reward good behavior, and unreward bad behavior.

we know stuff!

DONT LIE TO YOUR CHILDREN

you dont have to tell them everything. you need to tell the truth in a way that makes sense to kids but DONT LIE TO THEM

my inlaws do this thing that horrifies me. when my nephew's 3 year old wants to go outside after dark they will tell him he cant go out because the boogieman will get him! ACCKKKK!

even with things like santa claus (which is technically a lie) you have to tell the truth. not when your kid is 2 and just enjoys the whole thing but later when they ask "is there really a santa" you dont lie. when my son asked i said "everyone believes in santa a christmas time" and "people who dont believe in santa dont get presents from santa" (he claims i flat out told him "no" but i dont think i did, he just understood what i meant)

you are the test of all things REAL to your children. you are the bedrock on which their universe rests. they have to trust that everything you tell them is the truth. sure you will be wrong about some things, but they can deal with that. what they cant deal with is not being able to trust you. that would mean that there is nothing in the whole universe that can be relied on. and yes, that would be a bad thing.

I would reward good behavior, and unreward bad behavior.
ya know, sel that seems to make sense, but in the world of child psychology is the wrong thing

for US, there is a clear hierachy of reactions from other people. it goes

1) reward/good reaction

2) ignore it

3) punishment/bad reaction

its not the same for kids. for kids its

1) reward
2) punishment
3) ignore it

weird eh?

ALL children will choose negative over being ignored. so go with the "punishment" that is the worst for THEM. dont give them negative attention for bad behavior, give them NO attention. give them attention only for the behavior you are trying to promote and you will get much better results.

if you want your child to stop bad behavior, it works best if you ignore bad behavior (as much as is possible) and make sure you notice when he is behaving the way you want.

most parents will punish their kids when they spend the afternoon fighting and ignore it when they play all day nicely. BAD MOVE. ignore the fights (as much as possible) and when they are playing nicely go in and praise them for it and give them an unexpected reward "you kids have been playing so nicely, lets go to the park for a while"

The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.

- Friedrich Nietzsche


my parents always treated me with respect, like a mini adult rather than 'just a child'. i was always able to make my own decisions (they encouraged me to do some things i didn't want to of course). treat your children as equals - they may be young (and technically underdeveloped) but their opinion is still their own and it matters.

ya know, sel that seems to make sense, but in the world of child psychology is the wrong thing

for US, there is a clear hierachy of reactions from other people. it goes

1) reward/good reaction

2) ignore it

3) punishment/bad reaction

its not the same for kids. for kids its

1) reward
2) punishment
3) ignore it

weird eh?

Because children want external stimulation, as that is how they learn and learning is what childhood is about?
Just a thought.



<snip>

most parents will punish their kids when they spend the afternoon fighting and ignore it when they play all day nicely. BAD MOVE. ignore the fights (as much as possible) and when they are playing nicely go in and praise them for it and give them an unexpected reward "you kids have been playing so nicely, lets go to the park for a while"
Heh. Got to disagree with you there. Going to the park is the punishment for my kids - it takes them away from their playstation and PC. :headbang:

if you want your child to stop bad behavior, it works best if you ignore bad behavior (as much as is possible) and make sure you notice when he is behaving the way you want.

most parents will punish their kids when they spend the afternoon fighting and ignore it when they play all day nicely. BAD MOVE. ignore the fights (as much as possible) and when they are playing nicely go in and praise them for it and give them an unexpected reward "you kids have been playing so nicely, lets go to the park for a while"
Yes! The only exceptions I would make for this is when the child is going to harm himself or others, or is going to destroy valuable property after having been repeatedly warned.

Some well-meaning parents raise their children to accept all points of view as valid. This is all well and good for an adult, who has years of real-world experience upon which to draw. A child has no such experience, and the lack of certainty may lead them to look for moral absolutes in cults and other groups which seem to offer that moral certainty. You do no wrong if you inculcate your own values in your children. Later, when they have experience in the world, you can give them permission to decide what vaules they want to hold.


There is a wide gap between: "hey - whatever you believe is OK with me", and "This is what I believe so you must mirror exactly in all things" which some parents try and instill in their children - which is what my wife was trying to get at.

Most basic moral values (don't hurt people, don't steal, be honest, etc) can be taught without making them part of "or you'll go to hell" scenario. And all of this must be done in an age-appropriate manner. Most five year olds won;t ask about the nuance of social security planning, but as they get older - if you have been open with them from day one - then they will surely approach you with questions that you can answer with what you believe and why and help steer them in their decisions without telling them that any deviation from your viewpoint is unacceptable.

Heh. Got to disagree with you there. Going to the park is the punishment for my kids - it takes them away from their playstation and PC. :headbang:

i hope that means your kids are over 10

Might doesn't make right. I don't see how force is a good thing. I lived in "good Christian home" based on "family values" and it didn't do me any good. It just solidified my opposition to hierarchy.

There is a wide gap between: "hey - whatever you believe is OK with me", and "This is what I believe so you must mirror exactly in all things" which some parents try and instill in their children - which is what my wife was trying to get at.

Most basic moral values (don't hurt people, don't steal, be honest, etc) can be taught without making them part of "or you'll go to hell" scenario. And all of this must be done in an age-appropriate manner. Most five year olds won;t ask about the nuance of social security planning, but as they get older - if you have been open with them from day one - then they will surely approach you with questions that you can answer with what you believe and why and help steer them in their decisions without telling them that any deviation from your viewpoint is unacceptable.
I don't recall mentioning anything about threatening children with any sort of dire consequences, much less anything like "you'll go to hell." Where do you come up with these things??? :confused:

i hope that means your kids are over 10
One's 10 (and autistic, so a bit of a special case), and the other's 8. In fairness, she's not that interested in the Playstation, but the park still comes a long way behind hanging out with friends, martial arts, going to the theatre &c &c.

Most basic moral values (don't hurt people, don't steal, be honest, etc) can be taught without making them part of "or you'll go to hell" scenario.

Mmkay ... just as an aside ... what about in my case? In Islam, we don't condemn people to Hell for wrong-doings because, frankly, that's not our place to do so.

However, I don't drink alcohol anymore. I used to, quite a bit, but not anymore. My 6 year old asked me the other day why I do not drink anymore and I replied, "Because Allah forbids it". It was an honest answer.

When we were at Chuck E Cheese (pizza place with games and whatnot) the other day, we had 150 tickets (to be exchanged for little prizes) and I gave them to a complete stranger. My daughter asked why and I said, "Because generosity is pleasing to Allah". It was an honest answer.

Both lessons teach abstinence from that which is harmful and generosity, respectively, but also to be mindful of Allah.

Does a lesson become invalid because it is done in the name of the Divine?

Mmkay ... just as an aside ... what about in my case? In Islam, we don't condemn people to Hell for wrong-doings because, frankly, that's not our place to do so.

However, I don't drink alcohol anymore. I used to, quite a bit, but not anymore. My 6 year old asked me the other day why I do not drink anymore and I replied, "Because Allah forbids it". It was an honest answer.

When we were at Chuck E Cheese (pizza place with games and whatnot) the other day, we had 150 tickets (to be exchanged for little prizes) and I gave them to a complete stranger. My daughter asked why and I said, "Because generosity is pleasing to Allah". It was an honest answer.

Both lessons teach abstinence from that which is harmful and generosity, respectively, but also to be mindful of Allah.

Does a lesson become invalid because it is done in the name of the Divine?
Not at all! :)

Does a lesson become invalid because it is done in the name of the Divine?


No. however the original statement was in response to someone who was seeming to claim that lessons could ONLY be taught effectively if done in the name of the divine.

Are you suggesting that I could not teach my son about abstinence or generosity without invoking God (or Allah)?

if you want your child to stop bad behavior, it works best if you ignore bad behavior (as much as is possible) and make sure you notice when he is behaving the way you want.

most parents will punish their kids when they spend the afternoon fighting and ignore it when they play all day nicely. BAD MOVE. ignore the fights (as much as possible) and when they are playing nicely go in and praise them for it and give them an unexpected reward "you kids have been playing so nicely, lets go to the park for a while"

I dont know if this works at home, but unfortunately it does not work in classrooms. Im still hammering out what the ideal for classroom discipline is, and I have yet to find it. The most promising thing so far is when you can get the kids to truly like you. Then when they misbehave, you express your disappointment and they will feel bad for disappointing someone they like and look up to and will make up for it by being extra nice.

No. however the original statement was in response to someone who was seeming to claim that lessons could ONLY be taught effectively if done in the name of the divine.
Well I certainly hope you're not referring to me! Nowhere have I ever said, or even implied such a thing. Anyone who says I have is a damned lier!

or alternatively you cay say "I dont drink because I belong to a religion that forbids it, and besides it's bad for your health and I don't want to have health problems." it seems like you are not giving your kid a choice in whether they believe in this religion you rpactice and saying it as if it is the absolute truth. But then I guess you don't want your kid seeing your religion as a beleif that he has a choice to accept or reject beleif in?

or alternatively you cay say "I dont drink because I belong to a religion that forbids is, and besides it's bad for your health and I don't want to have health problems." it seems like you are not giving yoru kid a choice in whether they believe in this religion you rpactice and saying it as if it is the absolute truth. But then I guess you don't want your kid seeing your religion as a beleif that he has a choice to accept or reject beleif in?

There is nothing wrong with instilling your religious beleifs in your children. If they decide to follow a different religion (or none at all) when they are older, they are free to do so. But as children it is to be expected that you instill in them your values.

Well I certainly hope you're not referring to me! Nowhere have I ever said, or even implied such a thing. Anyone who says I have is a damned lier!


Developing a little paranoia there Eutrusca?

:p

No, the original statement was by BOozy

There is nothing wrong with instilling your religious beleifs in your children. If they decide to follow a different religion (or none at all) when they are older, they are free to do so. But as children it is to be expected that you instill in them your values.

I understand that some people could believe that way, I was just expressing a personal opinion. I think it's better to give the kid a chance to make up his/her own mind about something. Especially when it comes to something like religion. Give them all teh alternatives as soon as you can I say.

I understand that some people could believe that way, I was just expressing a personal opinion. I think it's better to give the kid a chance to make up his/her own mind about something. Especially when it comes to something like religion. Give them all teh alternatives as soon as you can I say.

Thats basically impossible though. Unless you are a religious scholar or you have done your own research for whatever reason, you simply do not know enough about other religions to teach your children about them. Even if you did know enough, which some people do, it is impossible for you to teach them in an unbiased way because there is a reason you chose to believe in the religion you chose and not in the others. So, if you attempted to do that you would not be giving them any real alternatives. If you raise them in your religion, however, you are giving them a solid base from which to begin. As they get older, they can begin questioning all that they have learned and reaching their own conclusions about your religion based on a good understanding rather than on having heard a little about it. It is much easier to come to conclusions about something you have plenty of experience in than to come to conclusions about something which youve only heard about. If they were to find that the religion they have been raised in is lacking in some areas (or is outright wrong or whatever the case may be), they can begin exploring other things. But they would do so while already having a full understanding of your religion. That gives them a much stronger starting point for their search for truth than if they werent raised in any particular religion.

Developing a little paranoia there Eutrusca?
Where you're concerned? Most assuredly! :rolleyes:

I dont know if this works at home, but unfortunately it does not work in classrooms. Im still hammering out what the ideal for classroom discipline is, and I have yet to find it. The most promising thing so far is when you can get the kids to truly like you. Then when they misbehave, you express your disappointment and they will feel bad for disappointing someone they like and look up to and will make up for it by being extra nice.

The strategy of ignoring unwanted behaviour only works at home when this behaviour was originally intended to obtain attention. If the behaviour was directed toward other ends, such as eating more sweets, then ignoring is simply giving permission to the behavour. Not always the most useful thing to do.


Getting kids to like and, more critically still, respect you is essential for a teacher. It, unfortunately, is not always possible as some kids simply have no idea of what respecting someone means. When you meet this situation you are between a rock and a hard place. A child generally obtains their model for how to treat others from their family, so if the child does not respect you it is odds on that the parents will not either. This means that you have little chance of correcting the situation. Any punishment will be challenged as being biased or unfair by the parents and the teacher is not always supported by the institution. So you are stuck with disrespect and no means of recourse. This leads to the other children losing respect as well. The only way out I have found in this situation is for you to transfer the problem to your seniors in the educational institution. Complain about the child's behaviour to them, before talking to the child. Cover your back.

I dont know if this works at home, but unfortunately it does not work in classrooms. Im still hammering out what the ideal for classroom discipline is, and I have yet to find it. The most promising thing so far is when you can get the kids to truly like you. Then when they misbehave, you express your disappointment and they will feel bad for disappointing someone they like and look up to and will make up for it by being extra nice.
*shudder*
i have no idea if it would work in the classroom either but i dont think id try it except for the "notice them behaving the way you want them to" part which is always a nice thing.

a good teacher is some kind of magician bringing order out of chaos. they have my utmost respect.

No. however the original statement was in response to someone who was seeming to claim that lessons could ONLY be taught effectively if done in the name of the divine.

Are you suggesting that I could not teach my son about abstinence or generosity without invoking God (or Allah)?

Nope! Just getting a clarification. :)

or alternatively you cay say "I dont drink because I belong to a religion that forbids it, and besides it's bad for your health and I don't want to have health problems." it seems like you are not giving your kid a choice in whether they believe in this religion you rpactice and saying it as if it is the absolute truth. But then I guess you don't want your kid seeing your religion as a beleif that he has a choice to accept or reject beleif in?

There are some things you don't give your kids choices about when they're 6 years old. You let them pick what clothes they're going to wear, you let them pick what they want to eat when you're in a restaurant, you let them choose which toy they're going to play with ... but when it comes to ethics and values, a 6 year old should not be given a choice, only an example.

A 6 year old does not have the experience, wisdom, or knowledge that helps adults make good choices. A 6 year old can believe that if he shoots his friend, his friend will get up and shake it off because he has no reason not to believe as such. So, you don't give your kid a loaded gun and tell them to choose whether or not to shoot their friend, you simply don't give your 6 year old a loaded gun.

I hope this rambling has made sense.

Thats basically impossible though. Unless you are a religious scholar or you have done your own research for whatever reason, you simply do not know enough about other religions to teach your children about them. Even if you did know enough, which some people do, it is impossible for you to teach them in an unbiased way because there is a reason you chose to believe in the religion you chose and not in the others.
Those reasons though are your reasons, and not those of your children. Why is it not possible to raise a child without any specific religious indoctrination? You can teach them to be kind, to respect others, to avoid doing harm, all without introducing any religious element.

So, if you attempted to do that you would not be giving them any real alternatives. If you raise them in your religion, however, you are giving them a solid base from which to begin. As they get older, they can begin questioning all that they have learned and reaching their own conclusions about your religion based on a good understanding rather than on having heard a little about it.
If you raise them in your religion you are closing off possibilities of lines of thought. You are taking a mind in the critical stage of opinion formation and telling it, from its most trusted and respected source, that certain ideas are right and others are wrong. This precludes any real critical questioning of the religion. It does not preclude a later rejection, but it does remove any possibility whatsoever of the person choosing, of what is clearly their own will, to adopt the religion. There will always be the doubt that they adopted the religion because they were conditioned by their parents to do so.

It is much easier to come to conclusions about something you have plenty of experience in than to come to conclusions about something which youve only heard about. If they were to find that the religion they have been raised in is lacking in some areas (or is outright wrong or whatever the case may be), they can begin exploring other things. But they would do so while already having a full understanding of your religion. That gives them a much stronger starting point for their search for truth than if they werent raised in any particular religion.

Yes it is, but you can not offer experience, as you say of all religions. So to be fair to the child, you should not offer experience of any. You can disacuss religion, you can explain your reasons for your belief, but it is surely wrong to expect that they should share these beliefs.

...

a good teacher is some kind of magician bringing order out of chaos. they have my utmost respect.

Funny you should say that since I am both a teacher and an amateur magician

If you raise them in your religion you are closing off possibilities of lines of thought.

Really? Cuz my father was a very devoted Atheist and, well, look at me. Lines of thought and decisions on religion, lifestyle, and whatnot are best left to adults who can rely on experience.

A 6 year old doesn't have that. If you offer up all possible religions to a 6 year old, you're just going to confuse them, overwhelm them, and anger them.

Go ahead, though, hand a 6 year old a Bible, Qur'an, Vedas, Rede, Torah, etc etc all at once. You'll get a slack-jawed blank stare.

Really? Cuz my father was a very devoted Atheist and, well, look at me. Lines of thought and decisions on religion, lifestyle, and whatnot are best left to adults who can rely on experience.

A 6 year old doesn't have that. If you offer up all possible religions to a 6 year old, you're just going to confuse them, overwhelm them, and anger them.

Go ahead, though, hand a 6 year old a Bible, Qur'an, Vedas, Rede, Torah, etc etc all at once. You'll get a slack-jawed blank stare.

they why not say "there are many different religions, and when you feel like you it can learn about all fo them or just the ones that interest you and make a decision as to whether you want to follow any or none of them when the time is right for you"? I think Alien Born made great points as to why.

I would reward good behavior, and unreward bad behavior.
How exactly? That's about the vaguest thing I've heard...

Really? Cuz my father was a very devoted Atheist and, well, look at me. Lines of thought and decisions on religion, lifestyle, and whatnot are best left to adults who can rely on experience.

A 6 year old doesn't have that. If you offer up all possible religions to a 6 year old, you're just going to confuse them, overwhelm them, and anger them.

Go ahead, though, hand a 6 year old a Bible, Qur'an, Vedas, Rede, Torah, etc etc all at once. You'll get a slack-jawed blank stare.

I think you misunderstod me. I was suggesting that this should be left to adulthood. By closing off lines of possibility I was referring to the the following scenario.

You were raised by an atheist. Imagine that you are now an atheist. How certain, in your mind, could you be that this was really your opinion and not simply conditioning as a child.
You are not an atheist, you know that the choice was freely made by you. But if you were, you could not be certain.

For this reason, and this reason alone, religious influence by parents removes some possibilities from the child later in life. Therefore, the parents should not try to indoctrinate a young child. They should answer questions as openly and honestly as they can. I realise that for some (who are known here, but shall remain nameless) this will be the same as full blooded indoctrination, but the ideal not being always obtainable does not mean that it is not worthwhile trying to reach for those that can.

Religion, for me, is a personal subject for adults, it is not a family matter at all.

we know stuff!

DONT LIE TO YOUR CHILDREN

you dont have to tell them everything. you need to tell the truth in a way that makes sense to kids but DONT LIE TO THEM

my inlaws do this thing that horrifies me. when my nephew's 3 year old wants to go outside after dark they will tell him he cant go out because the boogieman will get him! ACCKKKK!

Lying is the thing that bothers me the most...my inlaws do the same. Do they really think their kids are stupid? No...they just stop believing anything they say. My sister-in-law lies about EVERYTHING..."if you're good, we'll go swimming", then the time comes and it's, "we can't, the swimming pool is closed today". The worst is when she tries to get me to play along. I won't. If the kid asks, I'll answer. No, the damn swimming pool isn't closed. It's caused some fights...I won't offer information, but I sure as hell won't lie to them about things...."did your baby really come from the doctor's office?" No...here's what REALLY happened...

Christ, by 11 they should know these things...and it's not like they haven't heard distorted versions from their friends. Pretending that God put my baby in my belly is pretty ridiculous, and would make me an adulterer:) (or adultress?)

Stupid sister-in-laws... :D

they why not say "there are many different religions, and when you feel like you it can learn about all fo them or just the ones that interest you and make a decision as to whether you want to follow any or none of them when the time is right for you"? I think Alien Born made great points as to why.
The problem is that they are not growing up in a cultural vacuum, and the culture they exposed to outside the home will probably contain a religious component. Whilst your message should in principle conteract that, it is a relatively complex one compared to the simplistic version of religion that tends to be fed to kids. And children do like a bit of certainty, especially when confronted with something as fundamentally scary as concepts of existence, infinity and mortality.

Mmkay ... just as an aside ... what about in my case? In Islam, we don't condemn people to Hell for wrong-doings because, frankly, that's not our place to do so.

However, I don't drink alcohol anymore. I used to, quite a bit, but not anymore. My 6 year old asked me the other day why I do not drink anymore and I replied, "Because Allah forbids it". It was an honest answer.

When we were at Chuck E Cheese (pizza place with games and whatnot) the other day, we had 150 tickets (to be exchanged for little prizes) and I gave them to a complete stranger. My daughter asked why and I said, "Because generosity is pleasing to Allah". It was an honest answer.

Both lessons teach abstinence from that which is harmful and generosity, respectively, but also to be mindful of Allah.

Does a lesson become invalid because it is done in the name of the Divine?
Look, before this gets out of hand, let me throw in my two cents:)

First of all, Keruvalia, did you really stop drinking just because Allah forbids it? Or was it because of WHY Allah forbids it? What are the reasons that alcohol is a bad thing in Islam? Surely you base your decision more on those reasons than just a single commandment? Perhaps that is what you should be explaining to the kids. Why? Because it's kind of like saying to a kid...don't do this because I say so. That doesn't make a lot of sense to a kid. Explaining WHY they shouldn't be doing it does.

What I think Zep and Steph are driving at is that morals certainly can be taught within a faith system, but they can also be taught outside one. Not only that, it is important to draw connections outside of faith so that if your child decides to reject your religion, they will not be rejecting your morals. Example: don't steal. It's a Christian commandment. But do we ever just teach our kids, "Don't steal because God says so?" No, we try to explain the consequences of the act. So if that child decides they prefer to be an aethist, they aren't going to run around stealing left and right.

Zep and Steph have gotten a lot of flack here for saying that they think you should expose your children to other viewpoints and not force your beliefs on them. I wholeheartedly agree, and I think the majority of you do too...you're just arguing semantics. We teach our children best through example. Almost inevitably, your child is going to reject certain things about you...maybe your religion, your politics, your vegetarianism...whatever...but they will STILL have a firm moral ground to stand on, because you have taught them how to live by living well yourself. (Ideally). If your kid turns into a hard-nose conservative, and you're a liberal, does that mean you failed as a parent? Does it make your child any less moral? That is NOT the same as saying all belief systems are equally valid...but one of the greatest things my parents ever did was to make a statement, and then add, "But that's just my opinion. Not everyone sees it that way."

I think you misunderstod me. I was suggesting that this should be left to adulthood. By closing off lines of possibility I was referring to the the following scenario.

You were raised by an atheist. Imagine that you are now an atheist. How certain, in your mind, could you be that this was really your opinion and not simply conditioning as a child.
You are not an atheist, you know that the choice was freely made by you. But if you were, you could not be certain.

For this reason, and this reason alone, religious influence by parents removes some possibilities from the child later in life. Therefore, the parents should not try to indoctrinate a young child. They should answer questions as openly and honestly as they can. I realise that for some (who are known here, but shall remain nameless) this will be the same as full blooded indoctrination, but the ideal not being always obtainable does not mean that it is not worthwhile trying to reach for those that can.

Religion, for me, is a personal subject for adults, it is not a family matter at all.


Your base assumption is wrong. Human beings are fully capable of making their own decisions and fully capable of understanding whether they made the decision or their parents did. Any confusion about whether you are of x religion because you choose to be or not is dispelled when you explore your options and make your own decision. So, suppose you get to your teenage years and you begin to question why you are muslim (or christian), thats fine! there is nothing wrong with that. You can do some exploring and come to your own conclusion. You seriously underestimate people, and the ironic thing is that you arent underestimating children, you are underestimating an adult's ability to make a decision and know why he made it. You can make your own decisions and be certain that it was your decision regardless of your upbringing. Being raised in a particular religion just gives you a stronger base from which to make your decision.

No line is ever closed off unless you choose to do so. Being raised in a particular religion does not close you to other points of view, it just exposes you to one point of view.

The problem is that they are not growing up in a cultural vacuum, and the culture they exposed to outside the home will probably contain a religious component. Whilst your message should in principle conteract that, it is a relatively complex one compared to the simplistic version of religion that tends to be fed to kids. And children do like a bit of certainty, especially when confronted with something as fundamentally scary as concepts of existence, infinity and mortality.

and that goes along perfectly with what I am saying which is, they can learn about what they are intersted in. I think a parent should fuel a kids interest insomething by goign out and purchasing a book on whatever they find interest in whether it be religion or music or whatever. I am nto saying to shelter them from what is out there in the world, just dont push your personal religion or lack thereof as absolute and let the kid decide. If they find happiness or comfort in Christianity while you happen to be atheist, then allow them that comfort and happiness and the ability to make that choice. Have honest open discussions with them about why youb elieve what you believe but dont condemn them about their beliefs. It can be healthy to ask them why they believe this or that and offer other theories you might be able to think of.

I dont know if this works at home, but unfortunately it does not work in classrooms. Im still hammering out what the ideal for classroom discipline is, and I have yet to find it. The most promising thing so far is when you can get the kids to truly like you. Then when they misbehave, you express your disappointment and they will feel bad for disappointing someone they like and look up to and will make up for it by being extra nice.
What about the kids who hate your guts? I know what you mean about classroom discipline, it's a tough thing. I've taught every level of school, and my last crazy assignment was grade 5 with a class of 30, 28 of whom were mild to severe sufferers of FASD. Two were severe behaviour disorders, and occasionally violent. Lots of cases of abuse, some drug use already, and kids working at a range of grade 1 to grade 6 levels. They were nuts!

1) With your class, discuss what a good, safe class looks like, acts, like, sounds like and feels like.
2) Discuss what rules are needed to make sure that happens. The smallest number of rules as possible works better than regulating every second of the day.
3) Discuss what the job of the teacher and the job of the students are. Discuss what the job of the teacher and the students is NOT (ie...is it the teacher's job to do your homework? Is it your job to interupt the class to describe a booger?)
4) Outline consequences for behaviour that is not acceptable. This has to follow school policy, even if you don't like some things about it.
5) When someone breaks a rule, ask them what rule they broke. Ask them what their job is in this situation (is it your job to jump on the desk? What is your job...to sit IN the desk). Ask them if they can do their job. If they can't ask them why (with FASD kids, sometimes they really CAN'T...they get very overstimulated. If it's a whim thing, then outline what the consequence of NOT doing the job will be, a time out, a trip to the office, whatever).
6) Ask them what they could do different next time. Make a plan with them. If they are jumping on the desk because they didn't understand the work, and got bored, discuss how they could make sure they ask or get help to understand the work next time. Summarise their plan for them (So next time, you will raise your hand and ask me to explain the work to you again. If you still don't get it, wait until the instructions are given, then come to my desk so I can show you. ). Get them to REPEAT the plan to you. That way, you know they're actually thinking about it.

Your job as a teacher is not to be their friend. Just like a parent, you are the adult. You need to provide a safe, caring environment, but it can't hang only on personal relationships. You have to be able to explain why certain kids get different things (Johny has a respirator pack...why don't we all get one? Leon gets a time out and he's sleeping...why can't we all sleep?) and why some kids NEED to be treated differently. Kids get this. They know who is different, and they know who can't control themselves. Pretending everyone is the same, and you love them all the same is silly. You are not going to like all your kids, and not all your kids are going to like you, but that doesn't mean you can't make your classroom safe, open, caring and respectful.

Anyway, I have plenty to say on this, but I'll confine myself to this:)

and that goes along perfectly with what I am saying which is, they can learn about what they are intersted in. I think a parent should fuel a kids interest insomething by goign out and purchasing a book on whatever they find interest in whether it be religion or music or whatever. I am nto saying to shelter them from what is out there in the world, just dont push your personal religion or lack thereof as absolute and let the kid decide. If they find happiness or comfort in Christianity while you happen to be atheist, then allow them that comfort and happiness and the ability to make that choice. Have honest open discussions with them about why youb elieve what you believe but dont condemn them about their beliefs. It can be healthy to ask them why they believe this or that and offer other theories you might be able to think of.
Not to disagree as such, but what I find with my kids is that Christianity is an assumed given at, for example, their school. Likewise when they're with my family, most of whom are practising Christians and some of whom are ordained ministers. So, because we hardly ever discuss religion in my house, my kids assume they are Christians themselves.

My wife and I don't have a huge problem with that - we also let them believe in Santa Claus, after all. However, I don't want them to blindly follow Christianity into adulthood, so we have to give them a very steer towards independant thought and acknowleging diversity, whilst at the same time avoiding alienating them from their peers' culture. Which is not easy, and I don't know if we'll pull off.

Your base assumption is wrong. Human beings are fully capable of making their own decisions and fully capable of understanding whether they made the decision or their parents did. Any confusion about whether you are of x religion because you choose to be or not is dispelled when you explore your options and make your own decision. So, suppose you get to your teenage years and you begin to question why you are muslim (or christian), thats fine! there is nothing wrong with that. You can do some exploring and come to your own conclusion.
My base assumption is that we can never truly know the causes of why we think and believe as we do. You may consider that wrong, but I have yet to meet anyone who could swear that they know why they hold all of their current beliefs. When you explore the options and make a decision. I f the decision is the same as the decision your parents recommended, then there will, forever be a doubt about the motivation behind this decision. Is it not possible that you made this decision to please some one you love and respect. Yes of course it is. There is the doubt. If that does not cross your mind in these circumstances, then you are not thinking very deeply about why you believe what you believe.

You seriously underestimate people, and the ironic thing is that you arent underestimating children, you are underestimating an adult's ability to make a decision and know why he made it. You can make your own decisions and be certain that it was your decision regardless of your upbringing. Being raised in a particular religion just gives you a stronger base from which to make your decision.
Yes i do doubt the adult's capacity, but I do not underestimate it. I recognise the limits of self knowledge, that is all. You insist that being in a religion gives you a stronger base to make the decision from. I do not see how this works. If you decide to be agnostic, how is this more firmly based if you were in a religion. If you start off in a protestant Christian church, how is this a stronger base for becoming a Spiritist or Wicca? The base is only stronger if yopu decidde to follow that religion that you are in. It actualy precludes the unbiased consideration of contraposed faiths.

No line is ever closed off unless you choose to do so. Being raised in a particular religion does not close you to other points of view, it just exposes you to one point of view.

I explained what I meant, it appears that it was not clear. I have reexplained it in a post replying to Keuvalia. If after reading that it is not clear, ask and I shall try once more.

Thanks for the feedback. Ill keep these things in mind for the future. You have vastly more experience than I do, so Im not going to question the accuracy of your claims, but so far this has not been a problem. There are no kids who hate me, I do like all kids (though honestly, I dont love them all the same), and most kids like me (the ones that dont are indiferent, none of them dislikes me...yet). Ive heard all sorts of nightmare scenarios, so I assume that so far I am just lucky. When I end up with a group far worse than this one, Ill keep the things you said in mind.
Whether your kids are FASD kids or geniuses, this can still work. The main point is be clear up front about your expectations, and explain WHY those things are expected. Talk about safety and respect, and how certain actions may have unforseen consequences. Be consistent, be reasonable, and be calm. This works with whatever group you have, and again, it doesn't hang on personal relationships. Those relationships are built over time...but when you are there in your first week with a group of strangers, you need to have things up front from the beginning:)

My wife and I don't have a huge problem with that - we also let them believe in Santa Claus, after all. However, I don't want them to blindly follow Christianity into adulthood, so we have to give them a very steer towards independant thought and acknowleging diversity, whilst at the same time avoiding alienating them from their peers' culture. Which is not easy, and I don't know if we'll pull off.
I'm in the same situation, though my kids aren't in school yet. My husband and I are staunch atheists, but I will be more than willing to discuss bible stories or whatever with my kids from my perspective. I treat the Bible, or any other religious teaching as a kind of extended Aesop's fables. They have moral value, and can be useful tools, but I don't accept that a talking ass really convinced a jaguar to eat the toad instead:)

If my kids choose to be Chrisitan, that will be their choice, but that doesn't mean I won't question them, or not allow them to question why I choose NOT to believe in God. In the end, we will still have similar values, if not beliefs, and I figure, once they're old enough to start forming their own beliefs, all I can do is provide support.

Ok, I'm going to go take a nap with my kids! Yay for nap time!

wow deep thread!

Sinuhue is one of my heros now.

Plus I really admire everyone's deep loving commitment to their kids. You all rule! :fluffle:

..
You may consider that wrong, but I have yet to meet anyone who could swear that they know why they hold all of their current beliefs.
...


I can, now youve met one.


When you explore the options and make a decision. I f the decision is the same as the decision your parents recommended, then there will, forever be a doubt about the motivation behind this decision.


Not at all. Again, I know this from experience.

Is it not possible that you made this decision to please some one you love and respect.


No. The reason I made the decision has nothing to do with that.


...
If that does not cross your mind in these circumstances, then you are not thinking very deeply about why you believe what you believe.


I have not only thought it through very deeply but have studied it at length. I studied a variety of religons before finally settling where I am.

You insist that being in a religion gives you a stronger base to make the decision from. I do not see how this works. If you decide to be agnostic, how is this more firmly based if you were in a religion. If you start off in a protestant Christian church, how is this a stronger base for becoming a Spiritist or Wicca? The base is only stronger if yopu decidde to follow that religion that you are in. It actualy precludes the unbiased consideration of contraposed faiths.


Its quite simple really. Using your examples, if you decide to be agnostic having been raised a christian, then your decision is one that was not made out of ignorance, it is one that was made by someone who has experienced Christianity first hand. It is a decision made by someone who grew up in that environment, and has studied and experienced that religion first hand. Therefore it is a stronger and better informed decision than if you were raised without religion and chose to be agnostic. The same is true if you chose to become a spiritist or wiccan. The decision will be one made by someone who has first hand knowledge and experience of what christianity is all about and thus is better equipped to decide if it is true or isnt. That provides a much stronger base. It gives you a base from which you can say "I was raised a christian, I know what being a christian is like, and I do not believe in christianity because _____". Someone raised with no religion does not have that base.

I can, now youve met one.
Not at all. Again, I know this from experience.
No. The reason I made the decision has nothing to do with that.
I have not only thought it through very deeply but have studied it at length. I studied a variety of religons before finally settling where I am.
I will have to agree to disagree with you. You have your beliefs about this. I have mine.



Its quite simple really. Using your examples, if you decide to be agnostic having been raised a christian, then your decision is one that was not made out of ignorance, it is one that was made by someone who has experienced Christianity first hand. It is a decision made by someone who grew up in that environment, and has studied and experienced that religion first hand. Therefore it is a stronger and better informed decision than if you were raised without religion and chose to be agnostic. The same is true if you chose to become a spiritist or wiccan. The decision will be one made by someone who has first hand knowledge and experience of what christianity is all about and thus is better equipped to decide if it is true or isnt. That provides a much stronger base. It gives you a base from which you can say "I was raised a christian, I know what being a christian is like, and I do not believe in christianity because _____". Someone raised with no religion does not have that base.
OK, so you can decide to be or not to be one specific religion on a firmer basis. I can agree with that, but how would this help someone raised as a Chritian to decide between being a Muslim or a Hindu? I do not see that it can give any basis fr this decision. It feels to me as an excuse to create a specific set of religious beliefs at a pre critical thinking age. It is probably not this, but I have a severe discomfort with the argument.

This discussion can go on forever. I would conclude my case with a clear statement that how to deal with religion with respect to their children is something that each parent has to judge for themselves and according to their own beliefs. There is no clearly right or clearly wrong approach.

This discussion can go on forever. I would conclude my case with a clear statement that how to deal with religion with respect to their children is something that each parent has to judge for themselves and according to their own beliefs. There is no clearly right or clearly wrong approach.

This, we can both agree on. :)

Its quite simple really. Using your examples, if you decide to be agnostic having been raised a christian, then your decision is one that was not made out of ignorance, it is one that was made by someone who has experienced Christianity first hand. It is a decision made by someone who grew up in that environment, and has studied and experienced that religion first hand. Therefore it is a stronger and better informed decision than if you were raised without religion and chose to be agnostic. The same is true if you chose to become a spiritist or wiccan. The decision will be one made by someone who has first hand knowledge and experience of what christianity is all about and thus is better equipped to decide if it is true or isnt. That provides a much stronger base. It gives you a base from which you can say "I was raised a christian, I know what being a christian is like, and I do not believe in christianity because _____". Someone raised with no religion does not have that base.
So you are saying, that if you were not raised in a religious household, and you choose to be atheist or agnostic, or spiritist or wiccan, that decision was made out of ignorance?

I was raised in an agnostic household. I myself am profoundly atheistic. I could take a doctorate in Christianity and still not change my views. My decision to be an atheist is no more ignorant than your decision NOT to be. I didn't have to be raised a Chrisitan in order to reject Christianity....nor did you have to be raised Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist in order to reject THOSE religions. "Someone with no religion does not have that base" is about the most baseless statement I have heard. Bah.

Edit: sorry, my hackles really go up when it comes to certain takes on religion...so I have included rant tags because Alien Born would appreciate it:)

I still want some more people to tell me what they feed their kids...babies and toddlers I mean. Do you buy food, or make it and puree it?

I still want some more people to tell me what they feed their kids...babies and toddlers I mean. Do you buy food, or make it and puree it?
We used to go with made and pureed (with the 'occasional' (ahem) bought jar when time was short) until our kids got old enough to express an opinion on the matter (around about six months as I recall). We've stuck to the bought food pretty much since.

It was a mixture. Mostly made, stuff like mexican refried beans, but the occasional jar of bought. We were students on a tight budget, so this was sort of forced on us.
If you can afford the bought, don't guilt trip about using it. It generally is well balanced and not too full of salt or sugar.
We always sat Ian at the table with us when we ate our meals (unless he was asleep) and he often demanded to try our grown up food. This we allowed whenever possible, and the switch to real solids was pretty easy.

I think the most important thing anyone can do with their kids is get to know them. As a camp counsellor for a couple of years, I've learned that every kid is different. Some need displine, some need encouragement, they all need love. If you just take the time to know your kids you will learn what they want, what they need, and the best way to give it to them. And when you take the time to know your kids thats the best way to show them that you love them and that you care for them.

So, now that there are like 1001 different kinds of strollers and jumpers and assorted playthings for kids...what was the most USEFUL kid thing you bought? For me, it would be the backpack...where you can stick the baby in and walk around with her peeping over your shoulder:) I used it with the first one until she literally didn't fit anymore, and the second one is in it as we speak...whenever they got fussy, I put them in and they are quite content.

How about you?

Grandparents

The single most useful thing where kids are involved.

EDIT: Ok we didn't buy them, but what the heck.

More seriously, the best thing we bought was a set of walking reins. These allowed Ian to explore around us, to walk, to stop and look, without anyone suffering excessive back ache and leaving both of his hands free.

A sister for our son, and a brother for our daughter. They can keep each other amused for hours.

First of all, Keruvalia, did you really stop drinking just because Allah forbids it? Or was it because of WHY Allah forbids it? What are the reasons that alcohol is a bad thing in Islam? Surely you base your decision more on those reasons than just a single commandment? Perhaps that is what you should be explaining to the kids. Why? Because it's kind of like saying to a kid...don't do this because I say so. That doesn't make a lot of sense to a kid. Explaining WHY they shouldn't be doing it does.


That's all well and good, but it is impossible to explain to a 6 year old, who has no grasp of death or dieing, what happens to the body after years of alcohol abuse. Explaining liver function to a 6 year old would be like explaining algebra to a moose. You just end up with a confused and angry moose.

So, now that there are like 1001 different kinds of strollers and jumpers and assorted playthings for kids...what was the most USEFUL kid thing you bought? For me, it would be the backpack...where you can stick the baby in and walk around with her peeping over your shoulder:) I used it with the first one until she literally didn't fit anymore, and the second one is in it as we speak...whenever they got fussy, I put them in and they are quite content.

How about you?

Most useful? It would have to be the placy saucer thingy, you know it has a seat in the center with all sorts of gizmos around it. Followed by the transformable high-chair (high chair or child-sized chair as needed) Fisher Price toddler was also a huge blessing and fun too.

I still want some more people to tell me what they feed their kids...babies and toddlers I mean. Do you buy food, or make it and puree it?
kids got boobie juice as babies, then moved up to cereal (baby type), formula and beechnut babyfood. Applesauce and mashed banannas were big hits.

Once they started getting molars we started with select adult foods.

One big surprise was a pizza with spicy sauce on it. out toddler took the crust and MAU'ED on it. We were amazed. Today (age 8) he's not so keen on spicy things. Of course, he's the same way about beer now too. :)

Grandparents

The single most useful thing where kids are involved.

EDIT: Ok we didn't buy them, but what the heck.
Hehehehe...I'll be sure to tell my parents and my parents-in-law this...I tend to agree:)

More seriously, the best thing we bought was a set of walking reins. These allowed Ian to explore around us, to walk, to stop and look, without anyone suffering excessive back ache and leaving both of his hands free.
You'll have to describe this to me...I bought the thing that snaps onto the wrist of my toddler, but she quickly figured out how to take it off. Was your contraption a thing that fit around his body instead of just his hand?

A sister for our son, and a brother for our daughter. They can keep each other amused for hours.
Yeah, right now my daughters just drive each other nuts...but I AM thinking the more the merrier...we're planning an international adoption, though it might take a while. The big thing is, and I don't know if this makes sense, but I want my eldest to remain the eldest. She's got the attitude:) I was a first born too, and I don't want to adopt a child older than her...I feel like it would be usurping her place. The younger one, well, I don't think she would mind...who knows why, this is just how I feel about it.

That's all well and good, but it is impossible to explain to a 6 year old, who has no grasp of death or dieing, what happens to the body after years of alcohol abuse. Explaining liver function to a 6 year old would be like explaining algebra to a moose. You just end up with a confused and angry moose.
No...you don't have to go into that much detail! I just mean, you can explain in general terms what alcohol does to people...how they act a little stupid sometimes, or that alcohol is just something you don't enjoy drinking. That's all I mean.

If my husband has a beer, my daughter always wants some. She's tried it once, and spat it out in disgust, but still asks for it. As soon as she smells it though, she changes her mind and looks at him like he's nuts for wanting to drink that! Usually he's just finishing off the bottle he used to barbeque with, so it's not a regular thing.

One big surprise was a pizza with spicy sauce on it. out toddler took the crust and MAU'ED on it. We were amazed. Today (age 8) he's not so keen on spicy things. Of course, he's the same way about beer now too. :)
My 3 year old just got into pizza...she won't eat the end crust (my favourite part!), but she has a particular method to eating...first the toppings are picked off and consumer, then the sauce is licked off, and finally the crust is eaten:) My husband will be a little disconcerted when he gets home (he works three weeks away, one week home right now), since she wasn't really into much solid food when he left....now it's all apples, macaroni, pizza...anything chewy.

No...you don't have to go into that much detail! I just mean, you can explain in general terms what alcohol does to people...how they act a little stupid sometimes, or that alcohol is just something you don't enjoy drinking. That's all I mean.

If my husband has a beer, my daughter always wants some. She's tried it once, and spat it out in disgust, but still asks for it. As soon as she smells it though, she changes her mind and looks at him like he's nuts for wanting to drink that! Usually he's just finishing off the bottle he used to barbeque with, so it's not a regular thing.
my extended family on my dad's side own a vinyard, so my cousins and i all grew up in an environment where you are allowed a glass of wine with dinner once you turn 7. all of us insisted on that glass of wine the first time we were old enough to have it...and none of us asked for it again until we were at least 16 :P. my kid brother is the same way; he's allowed to taste beer or wine or scotch if my parents or i happen to be drinking it, but when we ask if he'd like some of his own he always opts for juice or soda.

You'll have to describe this to me...I bought the thing that snaps onto the wrist of my toddler, but she quickly figured out how to take it off. Was your contraption a thing that fit around his body instead of just his hand?

The best I can do is this picture (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Alienborn/reins.jpg) . Ian was about 15 moths old (he looks a lot different now), and this was taken in the UK.

The best I can do is this picture (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/Alienborn/reins.jpg) . Ian was about 15 moths old (he looks a lot different now), and this was taken in the UK.
Thanks! I've heard of this sort of thing, but have never seen it!

Thanks! I've heard of this sort of thing, but have never seen it!

We got it from a company called Boots in the UK. They are a large chain of drug stores. They sell it online here (http://www.boots.com/shop/product_details.jsp?productid=1039920&classificationid=1013440&slmRefer=000)

Edit: Checking though, they only deliver to UK addresses.

Okay, fairly recently my three year old has taken it upon herself to constantly harass the one year old...pinching her, knocking her down, bossing her around, stealing toys from her and generally being a nuisance...I can't let them alone in the same room together for any amount of time! Now, the baby gets hers in too sometimes, pulling hair, turning off the tv, running off with her sister's socks:), but there is a sizeable size difference, and I'm really getting worried that the bigger one is going to go too far. We've gone through saying sorry and giving kisses, and doing something nice for the sister, but she just keeps doing it! Time outs, talks, nothing is working! What the heck can I do, other than keeping them physically separated until they "grow out of it"?

(Credentials: I am a teenager)
Okay, the teen years are though to deal with as a parent. They're tough to deal with as teens, too, so don't think we've got it easy. We have the job in our teen years of figuring out just who we are and want to be. For the first time in our lives, the grades we make in school matter. (And trust me, I almost failed out of all my elementary and middle school classes for lack of caring, but I now have a 3.0 in highschool and that's only going up.) We have a million people trying to tell us what to think, our friends, our teachers, our parents, the media, everyone. Here's a few tips from a teen as to how to deal with us.
(some of these work for all kids)

#1: DONT squelch our opinions and personalities. If your daughter wants to become a pagan, if your son wants to go goth, don't be completely against it. If anything, that will make them want to do it MORE. Teens are just discovering freedom, and are thus by nature rebellious. Don't give them anything to rebel against. If it's just a phase,they'll get tired of it eventually. if it's who they are, then there was never anything you could have done about it.

#2: DONT EVER, EVER GIVE THE REASON "BECAUSE I SAID SO" FOR ANYTHING.
This one is very important. If you say "because I said so" or "because I'm the parent" that's most teen's cue to stop listening. Always give reasons.

#3: REWARD HONESTY: this is very important. If I get a pair of F's on my report card, I'm likely to have the same reaction if I show them, or if I hide them and they are found out about. So it's in my best interest to hide them, given that there's a chance they'll never be seen. When your child shows you something they have failed at or done wrong, you should not be angry. You should only be angry when they try to hide something they have done wrong. When your child shows you the problem, swallow your anger and help them fix it.

#4: Give a good amount of freedom. Because if we don't have any freedom to do what we want while being guided, then the first time we have freedom we will be entirely unguided. This is the type of things that lead to alcholism, promiscuity, partying, and drug use the SECOND the teen is out of your house. Now the freedom you give should be responsible and supervised of course.

#5: SPEND TIME WITH THEM. If your son likes video games, play them with him, if he likes sports, practice with him and go to his games. Whatever it is that daughters do, participate. Because if your child is also your friend they will feel that they can confide in you.

#6: BE SOMEONE THEY CAN TALK TO. Very often, a teenager will not tell their parents anything about their lives for fear that their parents will seek to meddle in them, and no teen wants this. You have to let your child know that you won't do anything without due consideration, and in most cases, their consent.

#7: DONT try to start a conversation with "How was school" School is boring and tedius. We don't want to talk about it.

edit

Look, before this gets out of hand, let me throw in my two cents:)

First of all, Keruvalia, did you really stop drinking just because Allah forbids it? Or was it because of WHY Allah forbids it? What are the reasons that alcohol is a bad thing in Islam? Surely you base your decision more on those reasons than just a single commandment? Perhaps that is what you should be explaining to the kids. Why? Because it's kind of like saying to a kid...don't do this because I say so. That doesn't make a lot of sense to a kid. Explaining WHY they shouldn't be doing it does.

What I think Zep and Steph are driving at is that morals certainly can be taught within a faith system, but they can also be taught outside one. Not only that, it is important to draw connections outside of faith so that if your child decides to reject your religion, they will not be rejecting your morals. Example: don't steal. It's a Christian commandment. But do we ever just teach our kids, "Don't steal because God says so?" No, we try to explain the consequences of the act. So if that child decides they prefer to be an aethist, they aren't going to run around stealing left and right.

Zep and Steph have gotten a lot of flack here for saying that they think you should expose your children to other viewpoints and not force your beliefs on them. I wholeheartedly agree, and I think the majority of you do too...you're just arguing semantics. We teach our children best through example. Almost inevitably, your child is going to reject certain things about you...maybe your religion, your politics, your vegetarianism...whatever...but they will STILL have a firm moral ground to stand on, because you have taught them how to live by living well yourself. (Ideally). If your kid turns into a hard-nose conservative, and you're a liberal, does that mean you failed as a parent? Does it make your child any less moral? That is NOT the same as saying all belief systems are equally valid...but one of the greatest things my parents ever did was to make a statement, and then add, "But that's just my opinion. Not everyone sees it that way."

Thank you, you have said exactly what I was trying to say far better than I did. :)

As for spanking... I think expert after expert would back up it teaches them nothing but the negative. There is nothing positive that comes from spanking your children, other than some parents are on a power trip or, they simply don't know any better.

I agree with Stephistan. And spanking is illegal where I live, too. I'm the mother of two children, a girl of 21 and a boy of 16. They never really did anything that would make spanking "necessary"... can't imagine what that could have been. I think it's a good idea to consider how "serious" this or that misbehaviour is before reacting too strongly - now that my kids are relatively grown up and sensible, I often think I was too strict about things that weren't really worth worrying about, especially with the oldest one. Kids are human after all, they are not really that unreasonable... they do have a natural wish to be part of society, and a lot of "anti-social" behaviour that parents might worry about they simply grow out, of rather quickly. :)

I think spanking is dangerous and lazy, although, I have smacked my daughter a few times, but always regretted it.

When she was a toddler she never, ever did anything you told her to, you could tell her until you were blue in the face not to do something dangerous, and she didn't listen. It turned out later that she was deaf (oops), but not all of the time. Sometimes her ear drums vibrate nicely, other times were have a period of deafness. I have talked to other parents in this position and it seems we all tell the same behavioural problem stories, some even thought their children were autisitc before getting an accurate diagnosis.
A few times I would smack her bottom, always through clothes when I had completely lost it, but all it ever did was make the situation worse. Although, when people talk about explaining it all to your child and discussing the issue calmly, that doesn't work when your kid is deaf and too young to sign. It becomes very hard to get through to them that if they run out in the road they might die, meaning when they do it a tap on the hand gets the message across.

Now she is five due to surgery able to hear a lot more.
She can sign and now she has 'loves', and the best punnishment is to attack the 'loves'.
If she's lazy or cheeky she knows there's no TV, sweets etc.
If she's particulary obnoxious she knows that I might well turn into Lois from Malcolm In The Middle and enter her room with a black sack and take many toys hostage for a limited period.

In general though we try and use postitive methods.
She has a note book and every day I write things in it, like get ready for school without a battle, eat well (she doesn't seem to feel the need to eat), tidy up after herself, and we give her a big tick when she does these things well. if there's lots of ticks, that day gets a sticker. Ten stickers equal a little treat.
We have also found this is handy as often I will ask her to do a few things at once (tidy room, brush hair stc), and she'll forget, but when they're written down, she has no problem getting things done.

Okay, the teen years are though to deal with as a parent. They're tough to deal with as teens, too, so don't think we've got it easy. *snip*
Cliché time: "We were teens once too." Unfortunately though it seems that most parents suffer from terminal memory failure with regard to this. One point though, I think few parents explain to their teenagers that the doubt about who you are, what you want etc. does not go away. There is no magical becoming adult moment. It is a long long process of doubting and re-evaluating. I think that teens should be made aware of this by their parents, by being included in the adult discussions on these issues. The final decisions on what to do have to rest with the adults, but the teens (and pre-teens) can make valuable contributions.

#1: DONT squelch our opinions and personalities. *snip* Don't give them anything to rebel against.
My wife tells a story of how her mother nearly drove her psychotic. Her mother insisted that she should rebel. Now if she rebelled she was obeying, if she obeyed she was rebelling. DO give your teen something to rebel against. It is a phase, but an important one. If you, as a parent, don't give them the resistance that they need to break down to establish their own self confidence, their own sense of worht, then they will find external resistances to break down, sometimes with life destroying consequences (heavy drugs etc.). This does not mean be over critical of their style or group associations (unless really justified as in LA street gangs or such like). It means set the limits tighter than is really necessary.

#2: DONT EVER, EVER GIVE THE REASON "BECAUSE I SAID SO" FOR ANYTHING.
This one is very important. If you say "because I said so" or "because I'm the parent" that's most teen's cue to stop listening. Always give reasons.
There are times when "Because that is the way I want it to be" is all the reason there is. The parents have to be in charge, they have the responsability, and with this comes the right to some autocratic authority. You do not have to explain or justify everything, nor should you attempt to do so. Life does not work like that anywhere. If the teen does not like it, they will simply have to lump it . (See above about rebellion, though.)

#3: REWARD HONESTY: *snip* You should only be angry when they try to hide something they have done wrong. When your child shows you the problem, swallow your anger and help them fix it.
Up to a point. Being honest about deliberately doing something that you know is wrong is no reason to escape the consequences. "Yeah I smashed the window on purpose", is honest, but no reason not to be punished for it. The rest I agree with

#4: Give a good amount of freedom.
Particularly freedom to talk. The difficulty here is where to draw the line with freedom to act. We learn from mistakes, so all teens have to be allowed to make mistakes. One blinding hangover at 14 years old can eliminate huge problems later. But it may not. Each parent has to follow their own beliefs here. If your set of moral values is consistent this should be enough to guide you. Just don't allow things one day and ban them the next.

#5: SPEND TIME WITH THEM. If your son likes video games, play them with him, if he likes sports, practice with him and go to his games. Whatever it is that daughters do, participate. Because if your child is also your friend they will feel that they can confide in you.
But don't crowd them! Do not force your presence on your teenagers when it is not wanted. Be available when you can, but do not try to be one of the gang, you are not anc can not be. It just embarasses your kids and makes you look stupid.

#6: BE SOMEONE THEY CAN TALK TO.
Not just for teens. For all your time as a parent.

#7: DONT try to start a conversation with "How was school" School is boring and tedius. We don't want to talk about it.
Advice here to the teens. What else do the parents have to start the conversation with. Listen to what hapens when dad meets mom. "How was your day dear?" is a typical start. (Much better than "I see you still haven't ...") If you don't want to talk about school then it is up to you to change the subject. A reply such as "OK; have you heard about the new . . ." takes the subject away from school. You have your interests, do not assume that others know what these are by some mysterious telepathic link.

Okay, fairly recently my three year old has taken it upon herself to constantly harass the one year old...pinching her, knocking her down, bossing her around, stealing toys from her and generally being a nuisance...I can't let them alone in the same room together for any amount of time! Now, the baby gets hers in too sometimes, pulling hair, turning off the tv, running off with her sister's socks:), but there is a sizeable size difference, and I'm really getting worried that the bigger one is going to go too far. We've gone through saying sorry and giving kisses, and doing something nice for the sister, but she just keeps doing it! Time outs, talks, nothing is working! What the heck can I do, other than keeping them physically separated until they "grow out of it"?

To be able to give any constructive advice we are going to need to know a lot more about the circumstances and patterns of this behaviour.
When does it occur? All the time, Sunday afternons, first thing after waking up, only when she is tired etc.
What routines do you have? Are your daughters in day care while you work, are you a full time mother, etc.
What do you mean by "let them alome in the same room for any amount of time"? How long is any amount of time, by alone do you mean with no adult present etc.
There are lots of possible things that may be causing the behaviour that could be eliminated. Jeleousy, however is a serious problem.

Sinuhue - If you're already not a parent, you're going to make a fine one. Kudos!

*snip*
Time frame...all the time, good mood or bad. She wants to play with her sister, but gets too rough. Other times, she sees her sister playing with a toy and immediately wants it...and takes it. Both my girls are in daycare during the day, but the sitter says there is not problem, because they're off playing with other kids. My husband has been away at work for a very long time, and so for the past year it's been rather like being a single parent.

I suspect they get bored at home, but I can only 'entertain them' so much. I make a concerted effort to do so...we play games, read books, tickle each others toes, dance around to cranked-up classical music and so on, but eventually I need to make supper or clean up a bit. I don't leave them alone somewhere I can't see them...often they are in the living room playing while I'm washing dishes, and because of our house, I can see them while I do that. That's when I see my eldest pinching or taking toys from her sister, or knocking her over...etc. I try to keep them apart even, but they are drawn to each other.

I spend one-on-one time with each of them, but frankly, the baby often needs my attention more, so I'm sure jealousy is a factor. But now that I'm describing this to you, I'm starting to suspect that it is a boredom issue...they are both used to more kids around, and then they get home and it's just me.

It seems every time I turn around, the eldest has hurt her sister. No matter how much I try to teach her to be gentle, (and she HAS gotten better), she can't seem to leave her sister alone.

Ideas?

It does sound like boredom, attention seeking. It happens when you have to pay attention to something else. Not the girls. When you are playing with them, the problem is not there, likewise when they are occupied at day care the problem is not there.

Ideas: - Hum? Clone yourself? No, that's not possible yet.
How is the neighbourhood for other kids of the same age range in families that you know and trust?
The TV, Video/dvd can be used sometimes to allow you half an hour to do things. I know you argue that the tv is no substitute for a parent, but the tv can not cook dinner while you entertain the kids. Otherwise it may be that you will have to separate them for the time that you are occupied. This should only last a few months though.
There may well be frustration on the part of the older girl that the younger one can not do things that she, the older one, wants to do. The pinching pushing etc. are most likely attempts to provoke the younger into doing these things.

It is not a case of explaining that it is wrong, but maybe of explaining that baby sister needs help in learning how to play nicely. In how to play the games. Make the older one into a teacher?

That is what comes to mind.

It does sound like boredom, attention seeking. It happens when you have to pay attention to something else. Not the girls. When you are playing with them, the problem is not there, likewise when they are occupied at day care the problem is not there.

Ideas: - Hum? Clone yourself? No, that's not possible yet.
How is the neighbourhood for other kids of the same age range in families that you know and trust?
The TV, Video/dvd can be used sometimes to allow you half an hour to do things. I know you argue that the tv is no substitute for a parent, but the tv can not cook dinner while you entertain the kids. Otherwise it may be that you will have to separate them for the time that you are occupied. This should only last a few months though.
There may well be frustration on the part of the older girl that the younger one can not do things that she, the older one, wants to do. The pinching pushing etc. are most likely attempts to provoke the younger into doing these things.

It is not a case of explaining that it is wrong, but maybe of explaining that baby sister needs help in learning how to play nicely. In how to play the games. Make the older one into a teacher?

That is what comes to mind.
I just moved to town about six months ago, and haven't really gotten to know a lot of neighbourhood kids yet 1) because it's winter, and not many are out on a regular basis and 2) we've been visiting my daughters' grandparents in the city a lot until just recently.

So, I've asked people around work if they would be interested in having their kids be babysat by me for an hour or so on a week night, or longer on the weekend, just to break up the day a bit, and let the girls play with some kids their age for a while. TV is for me a last resort, and I have been using it when I most need to get something done (like cook dinner). Once that's done, I try to keep them busy. I'm hoping with summer will come more opportunity to keep them engaged outside. I am trying to teach the older one to "help" her little sister play, and there has been a little success...she'll make faces at her sister and make her laugh, or do other things. I'll just keep at it I suppose...everyone once in a while I feel a little overwhelmed, so I need to make sure something is in place for those times.

Thanks for all the advice though...it's very validating, and important to me to get an outside view.

i don't have any kids, but i no quite a lot about them (who can guess why?) and i think that kids should be treated with respect. lots of kids like a strict but kind adult and one that will be fair.

Sinuhue,

I haven't been able to read back through 13 pages of posts, but the past 6 years of my life have been constantly reminding my two kids (now 6 and 3) to be gentle...with each other, with the cat, with their books, with their friends... my 6 year old is very good, but it took a lot of reminders from me to get her that way. My 3 year old is really good with the cat, and with smaller kids at daycare, but with his peers, he still need to be reminded. 3 is a tough age for that, I think, because they are finally really good at making their bodies do what they want them to do, but they still don't know their own strength. Plus at three they are just starting to learn cooperative play, rather than parallel play.

Some ideas: let your daughter practice being gentle with safe stuff (books with paper pages instead of board books, lacing cards, picking flowers when the weather gets better) and then graduate to playing unattended with the little one.For me, putting my kids in front of tv is like giving them crack, they listen better to me when it's not a factor, but that's just us. Do what works for you.

Sinuhue,

I haven't been able to read back through 13 pages of posts, but the past 6 years of my life have been constantly reminding my two kids (now 6 and 3) to be gentle...with each other, with the cat, with their books, with their friends... my 6 year old is very good, but it took a lot of reminders from me to get her that way. My 3 year old is really good with the cat, and with smaller kids at daycare, but with his peers, he still need to be reminded. 3 is a tough age for that, I think, because they are finally really good at making their bodies do what they want them to do, but they still don't know their own strength. Plus at three they are just starting to learn cooperative play, rather than parallel play.

Some ideas: let your daughter practice being gentle with safe stuff (books with paper pages instead of board books, lacing cards, picking flowers when the weather gets better) and then graduate to playing unattended with the little one.For me, putting my kids in front of tv is like giving them crack, they listen better to me when it's not a factor, but that's just us. Do what works for you.
Thank you. I think that as parents, we sometimes expect these immediate results, when we need to remember that learning is a process. I never forget this with the children I teach, but sometimes I do with my own kids. I figure, I told them how many times, they should get it now...well, I guess I just need to keep on telling them, and demonstrating, and going back over a concept when they backslide.

Parents get a lot of flack for not "controlling" their kids well enough, but too often we forget that children are people. You don't control people, you interact with them. It's more complicated, and less straightforward, but that's the way it is.

<snip>
It seems every time I turn around, the eldest has hurt her sister. No matter how much I try to teach her to be gentle, (and she HAS gotten better), she can't seem to leave her sister alone.

Ideas?
I can't really offer advice from experience here, but this much I can offer: if you can see improvement, reflect on that and reward both yourself and her. You may find it helps to compare now with then, and congratulate the both of you. Create achievable milestones, and achieve them. That way you both can keep seeing your goal as being on its way.

It's the oldest story in the parenting handbook, children generally don't change overnight. Most times, you're just steering them in a mutually acceptable direction. It's not just you manipulating them - they're doing it to you too. ;)

Edit: I see my point was being made, even as I typed it myself. Ah well, perhaps this can be another bit of positive reinforcement.

if the gods are good to me, i will never have kids of my own. however, i do have a few requests for those of you who have, or plan to have, children:

1. please don't dress your children in outfits that match each other or match your clothes. if you wish to have a living accessory for your outfit, buy a toy poodle...they already look ridiculous, so no harm done.
2. please bathe your child(ren) at least once per week. children are perpetually sticky, but it is possible to keep the sticky in check by turning a common garden hose on them for about 3-5 minutes.
3. don't give them squirt guns and then take them to the mall, unless you are prepared for me to join in their "adorable" squirt gun antics with my pepper spray.
4. although there is no law prohibiting you from bringing your infant with you to a rated-R movie, it is still a bad idea to do so.
5. don't ask me rhetorical questions about how great your child is. i dislike children intensely, particularly yours, but i won't bring that up unless you force the issue.
6. don't blame the media if your kids are fucked up. if you can't figure out how to turn off a television, you shouldn't have had kids in the first place.
7. please, for the love of Pete, THINK before you name your baby. selecting names like "Borghild" or "Iphegenia" is a form of abuse.
8. don't ask me if i agree with your parenting methods. i don't.

I can't stand rotten little kids - j/k ;)

*snip*
*sticks tongue out at Bottle*

May you be blessed with many, many children. :D

5. don't ask me rhetorical questions about how great your child is. i dislike children intensely, particularly yours, but i won't bring that up unless you force the issue.

lol! I am the exact same way. I have 3 kids and I love every one of them. I cannot stand other people's kids ... and I'm a teacher! :eek:

*sticks tongue out at Bottle*

May you be blessed with many, many children. :D
lol, for the first time i find myself in a position to urge another person to PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

seriously, think about it: me. parenting. tell me you're not breaking out in goosebumps at the very thought.

lol! I am the exact same way. I have 3 kids and I love every one of them. I cannot stand other people's kids ... and I'm a teacher! :eek:
Cripes Keruvalia...we have WAY too much in common!