NationStates Jolt Archive

Infadels are not allowed in Mecca. Why not? As far as I know no one is excluded from Holy sites of other religions.

No-one is allowed into Stonehenge any more.

Apart from during the solstices? I think the Pagans are allowed up to the stones then

There are one or two other religions whose holy sites aren't open to others.
I think that parts of one or two of the Shinto temples are only open for Japanese alone. Others for the priesthood only.

:D

Couldn't even spell "infidels" right.

It's because the country that it is located in is run by bigoted fundamentalists.

It's because the country that it is located in is run by bigoted fundamentalists.
I thought Mecca was in the middle east - not Tennessee

Non-Mormons aren't allowed in Mormon temples, and only Hopi may attend the annual Hopi Kachina dances, so it's not just a Muslim thing. But it is uncommon.

As for why, I can think of many arguments a religious group could use to exclude others from their sacred sites or ceremonies. A command from their god, a desire for unity, the hope for blessings from God that Muslims (or Mormons or Hopi or anyone else) believe only they can receive, i.e. the presence of an infidel would shut the heavens, or maybe just the desire to know you can be yourself because you're surrounded by friends and fellow believers.

:D

Couldn't even spell "infidels" right.

My spell checker (MS Word) says it is correct, but that doesn't mean Bill Gates was correct does it?

Non-Mormons aren't allowed in Mormon temples, and only Hopi may attend the annual Hopi Kachina dances, so it's not just a Muslim thing. But it is uncommon.

As for why, I can think of many arguments a religious group could use to exclude others from their sacred sites or ceremonies. A command from their god, a desire for unity, the hope for blessings from God that Muslims (or Mormons or Hopi or anyone else) believe only they can receive, i.e. the presence of an infidel would shut the heavens, or maybe just the desire to know you can be yourself because you're surrounded by friends and fellow believers.
Or...you know...

it's our place and we just don't think that people that cannot appreciate the site as much as we do can comprehend the consequences of coming into the city and causing chaos.

Then again, stuffing millions of people to one tiny area isn't a smart idea itself.

*shrug*

I just personally think that if I can't comprehend how important the Pope is to Catholics, or how important the symbol of Budhha is to Buddists, that others cannot comprehend how important Mecca is to us.

I know I shouldn't think like that, but really...if you've seen some of the people I've seen...

I just personally think that if I can't comprehend how important the Pope is to Catholics, or how important the symbol of Budhha is to Buddists, that others cannot comprehend how important Mecca is to us.

I know I shouldn't think like that, but really...if you've seen some of the people I've seen...

Non Catholics can go to a Mass held by the pope. Non Catholics can go to a Catholic worship service. Non Catholics can tour the Vatican.

Non-Muslims can't even enter Mecca? Its a damned city, not the religion itself.

Colodia makes an excellent point. Take a Hopi - daughter of the Hopi, granddaughter of the Hopi - she knows what it means to be Hopi. She knows the trials and struggles her people have been through, generation after generation. It's easy to believe she can appreciate the Kachina dance more than some honky who thinks he knows Hopi culture because he read a couple books and saw "Dances With Wolves" on video.

With all the propoganda going around about Muslims being terrorists and Mormons being, well, Mormons, it's not hard to imagine they believe only they can truly appreciate their own culture and sacred places.

Well said, Colodia!

it's our place and we just don't think that people that cannot appreciate the site as much as we do

I just personally think that if I can't comprehend how important the Pope is to Catholics, or how important the symbol of Budhha is to Buddists, that others cannot comprehend how important Mecca is to us.

I may not appreciate or comprehend the religious significance of the site, but I can appreciate the art, architecture, and historical significance of the site.

I’ve visited many Buddhist temples in Thailand and although I’ve never been to the Vatican, I appreciate the art I’ve seen in the Sistine Chapel on the Internet.

My spell checker (MS Word) says it is correct, but that doesn't mean Bill Gates was correct does it?

I say that infidels is correct, and Google, MS Word, Leo and Webster agree. :P

As for Mecca: Why the hell does anyone care?

What difference does it make whether it is a city, a temple or a monument; if whoever it belongs to doesn't want certain people to enter it, what hinders them from making it off-limits? No non-Muslims have lived in Mecca for a long, long time - no one apart from tourists are affected by this.

If it doesn't infringe on the civil rights of other people (and no, entering any place you wish to is not a civil right), then what is the point in bothering with it? When there are fundies doing actual harm to others (say, shooting abortion doctors, blowing up buildings in suicide attacks, invading other countries), then start worrying.

Colodia makes an excellent point. Take a Hopi - daughter of the Hopi, granddaughter of the Hopi - she knows what it means to be Hopi. She knows the trials and struggles her people have been through, generation after generation. It's easy to believe she can appreciate the Kachina dance more than some honky who thinks he knows Hopi culture because he read a couple books and saw "Dances With Wolves" on video.

With all the propoganda going around about Muslims being terrorists and Mormons being, well, Mormons, it's not hard to imagine they believe only they can truly appreciate their own culture and sacred places.

Well said, Colodia!

Wouldn’t allowing non-believers to view the sites and attend the services help promote an understanding and appreciation of the religion and culture? I’m sure most people who would visit would be people who want to learn more about the religious significance of the site.

I say that infidels is correct, and Google, MS Word, Leo and Webster agree. :P

I stand corrected. Thank you.

I would think it would have something to do with "purity". We have a Muslim friend who believes that dogs are dirty and impure. We have dogs and we are careful to keep them from touching him when he comes to visit. If they do accidentally touch him, he believes that his clothes are no longer pure enough to wear while praying. As a Catholic, even though non-Catholics may attend Mass, they may not take communion.

As far as im aware, there isnt much to see or do in Mecca if your not a Muslim, so why even bother? It is a right to enter a city i suppose...It does bring up an interesting point though, why do some religions exclude others but, like the mormons, believe that anyone should be able to practice their religion?

you can enter mecca the city, but not the holy site itself..
if you wanna go to mecca then be a real muslim..
i was born muslim.. and i dont believe in shit religions.. so why would i wanna go there anyways.. to see millions of brain washed people run arround a rock.. ??

why would i go to the vatican.. to see a guy that should technically be dead talk about nothing.. and again.. the brainwashed people listening and believing in his prejudice against different people, different beliefes or different sexual orientation..

i think we should bulldoze everything down.. and build really nice skyscrappers, or.. nevermind.. how about a 10 dollar enterance fee :)

Infadels are not allowed in Mecca.

Maybe because some people realise that tourists suck.

Would you want idiots trying to modernize your religion and country? That's why Jesus was killed.

.. so why would i wanna go there anyways.. to see millions of brain washed people run arround a rock.. ??

why would i go to the vatican.. to see a guy that should technically be dead talk about nothing.. :)

What about the architecture, art and history of the place? Don't you think those places are worth seeing for that reason alone?

Wouldn’t allowing non-believers to view the sites and attend the services help promote an understanding and appreciation of the religion and culture? I’m sure most people who would visit would be people who want to learn more about the religious significance of the site.
If you were really interested in learning more about the religious significance of the site, you'd also be interested in learning about the significance of the religion itself first, and if you do not appreciate the significance of the religion itself, how could you appreciate the relgious significance of the site? It is the same way in occult practices. The knowledge they teach is not for everyone and is not to be used recklessly, so it is only offered to serious, responsible disciples.

Journeying to Mecca and seeing what is only shown to muslims is a reward and priviledge of being muslim, to open it to anyone would be to lessen its significance to the devout.

did you just call Jesus a moron, or am i having eye problems?

did you just call Jesus a moron, or am i having eye problems?

Get over it. You'll hear much worse. Not everyone thinks Jesus is the bee's knees.

right

did you just call Jesus a moron, or am i having eye problems?

If I understand correctly, Muslims and Jews acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and that his birth was a virgin birth. A friend of ours from Kashmire says that Mary and Jesus are recognized as being most holy.

Wouldn’t allowing non-believers to view the sites and attend the services help promote an understanding and appreciation of the religion and culture? I’m sure most people who would visit would be people who want to learn more about the religious significance of the site.
There's always the few that screw it up for everyone.

If I understand correctly, Muslims and Jews acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and that his birth was a virgin birth. A friend of ours from Kashmire says that Mary and Jesus are recognized as being most holy.
Yeah, they recognize both Moses and Jesus as prophets, but they also recognize Mohammed as being the most important prophet, whereas neither Jews nor Christians accept Mohammed's prophecies and Jews do not recognize Jesus as the true messiah. At least, as far as I understand it...

In the end, the Koran is a continuation of the Bible which is a continuation of the Torah.

you can enter mecca the city, but not the holy site itself..
skyscrappers, or.. nevermind.. how about a 10 dollar enterance fee :)
I wasn't aware that non-muslims weren't allowed at the holy site. I want to say that it's a safety concern, or that they don't want others to disrespect the holy sites, but I think the real reason is less noble.
I don't understand this since Islam is supposed to be a religion of equality and freedom, and a muslim's firsty duty is to spread the message of Islam and make make the religion accesible to everyone.
Hence, as far as I know, non-muslims are allowed to go to Mosques and attend services and talk to Islamic clerics. The problem is that there is a huge divide in the faith, between extremists and moderates, a divide that has only worsened during the Bush presidency.
Saudi Arabia follows a strict form of Islam, Wahabihism, that even considers other muslims "infidels." Being a moderate muslim, and an arab myself, I know that Saudia Arabia prides itself as being the holy land and arabs pride themselves as being holy people. They look down on all other countries and all other people, including muslims from Pakistan, Indonesia, Africa etc. But there is not such thing as the "chosen people" like in Judaism. Muslims are all equal in the eyes of Allah, and every muslim is compelled to show other religions as much respect.
So, at least from this moderate muslim, I wish you peace and happiness! :fluffle:
And to all the extremists that are ruining my religion :mp5:

Yeah, they recognize both Moses and Jesus as prophets, but they also recognize Mohammed as being the most important prophet, whereas neither Jews nor Christians accept Mohammed's prophecies and Jews do not recognize Jesus as the true messiah. At least, as far as I understand it...

In the end, the Koran is a continuation of the Bible which is a continuation of the Torah.

Aziz says that God (Allah) periodically sends prophets to the people and that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed were 3 of those prophets. We have discussed others that may have been God's prophets, including Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV).

Being a moderate muslim, and an arab myself, I know that Saudia Arabia prides itself as being the holy land and arabs pride themselves as being holy people.

So, at least from this moderate muslim, I wish you peace and happiness! :fluffle:
And to all the extremists that are ruining my religion :mp5:

Thank you very much! :)

I have a question. I ask this out of respect and curiosity: what would you consider a consertive Muslim, a moderate Muslim, and a liberal Muslim? Please know when I ask about a conservative Muslim, I don't mean the extremists... I know they are not true Muslims.

I thought Mecca was in the middle east - not Tennessee
I also consider Muslim fundies to be bigots.

No-one is allowed into Stonehenge any more.


BS, I've been there, a good friend of mine was there last summer, I know lots of folks who have been there.

They just don't let you touch the rocks or go over the ropes to get too close.

Infadels are not allowed in Mecca. Why not? As far as I know no one is excluded from Holy sites of other religions.


I guess perhaps Islam can't claim to be tolerant, but then again, in my religion, we don't let in any suspected reprobates on non-Calvinists, into the churches. You can't enter into a Calvinist church, or have communion in a Calvinist church, unless you're a Calvinist.

I also consider Muslim fundies to be bigots.
I see the joke went over your head

Whine, whine, whine, how can you white pro-capitalist men whine about being excluded? Socialists like me are hated by everyone. I don't have any group to belong to at all because my anarchist values don't fit with any nations or religions. My alienation is far greater than yours.

Whine, whine, whine, how can you white pro-capitalist men whine about being excluded? Socialists like me are hated by everyone. I don't have any group to belong to at all because my anarchist values don't fit with any nations or religions. My alienation is far greater than yours.



Then move to Somalia and enjoy all that the wonderful system of anarchy has done for that country.

Then move to Somalia and enjoy all that the wonderful system of anarchy has done for that country.

That's exactly what I mean. Everyone keeps telling me to go to hell, or North Korea, or Somalia (which isn't even anarchist).

That's exactly what I mean. Everyone keeps telling me to go to hell, or North Korea, or Somalia (which isn't even anarchist).


Anarchy be definition is a lack of any centralized or even localized authority, the absence of law and order. Remember, "If all men were angels, there should be no need for governments."

I believe that most people need to be whipped into line and made to obey the laws of deceny and primarily, of God.

Anarchy be definition is a lack of any centralized or even localized authority, the absence of law and order. Remember, "If all men were angels, there should be no need for governments."

I believe that most people need to be whipped into line and made to obey the laws of deceny and primarily, of God.

If men were angels, Nerv would be run entirely be women. You know so little about anarchism or humanity.

Whine, whine, whine, how can you white pro-capitalist men whine about being excluded? Socialists like me are hated by everyone. I don't have any group to belong to at all because my anarchist values don't fit with any nations or religions. My alienation is far greater than yours.
If you don't like it then why are you an anarchist? Seriously, if your gonna bitch about your values...

Infadels are not allowed in Mecca. Why not? As far as I know no one is excluded from Holy sites of other religions.

First of all, stop using the word "Infidel". It doesn't mean "non-Muslim". Muslims hardly ever use that word. It's your word, not ours. A non-Muslim is simply a "non-Muslim" or "not a Muslim". The word used in Qur'an that people often say is "Infidel" actually more closely means "Invader".

Personally, we couldn't care less whether or not you believe in our way. It's your choice. Not believing doesn't make you an "Infidel".

Anyway, don't worry about why not. It's not really any of your business why not. If you want to see what Muslims do, go to a Mosque. You'd be very openly welcomed there. If you want to see what goes on at the Kabah, become a Muslim. I suppose, though, you could do what Sir Richard Burton did and just disguise yourself as a Muslim and sneak in. I wouldn't get caught, though.

If men were angels, Nerv would be run entirely be women. You know so little about anarchism or humanity.


I know a great deal about humanity. Mankind exists in a state of total depravity, and as such, proper behavior is impossible for the vast, overwhelming majority of mankind.

If you don't like it then why are you an anarchist? Seriously, if your gonna bitch about your values...

You can't stop believing the truth simply because it hurts. That's what existentialists call inauthenticity. I can't run away from the truth simply because its painful.

None of you are aloud into *my* house!

I know a great deal about humanity. Mankind exists in a state of total depravity, and as such, proper behavior is impossible for the vast, overwhelming majority of mankind.

Only because we have ceded responsibility to authority and relied on simulations of freedom and happiness. Your totalitarianism will be the end of humanity.

The Pope's a kewl dewd. He appologized for the Crusades, and he believes in evolution! What more could anyone ask for? If all religious leaders were only that reasonable, the only unreasonable idiots left in the entire world would be Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and Rice!

Only because we have ceded responsibility to authority and relied on simulations of freedom and happiness. Your totalitarianism will be the end of humanity.


Man exists in total depravity because that is how God has planned things out.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield and Rice!


Please don't talk about occult members and molech worshippers as though they're religious leaders, thus implying they're model Christians since they are leaders in America, a supposedly Christian nation.

I just LOVE that Greenwald documentary:

Scene of Rumsfield saying to a Senate subcomittee, "I don't know ANYONE that has ever CLAIMED that Iraq had nuclear weapons".

Cut to Cheney speaking at a press conference: "We believe Iraq may have nuclear weapons!"

The punchline? 50 million people fell for it! We're gonna be laughing all the way to Tehran.

Wait - how is any of this relevant?

Well it is a holy ground. Plus don't think they care about tourists. They have too many other muslim tourists.

It's part of their religion. That they have to visit it at least once in their life time.. Something like a cleansing I think, or going back to their roots... My government even sets up a fund to send poor people there at least once in their lifetime.

You can't stop believing the truth simply because it hurts. That's what existentialists call inauthenticity. I can't run away from the truth simply because its painful.
...

So why are you criticizing your own beliefs by describing it as "painful"?

And also, I don't criticize your beliefs automatically and tell you that the existance of God is absolute truth. I'm automatically assuming your atheist, since you claim that religons don't agree with you.

Man exists in total depravity because that is how God has planned things out.

Then he doesn't sound like a very good god. It sounds to me like he is torturing us.

So why are you criticizing your own beliefs by describing it as "painful"?

And also, I don't criticize your beliefs automatically and tell you that the existance of God is absolute truth. I'm automatically assuming your atheist, since you claim that religons don't agree with you

I'm not criticising them so much as pointing out that the conclusion they show me is unpleasant, just as someone would be unhappy if they knew their brother had been killed. They shouldn't deny it simply because its painful. I don't hold certain views simply to make me feel good, afterall.

Then he doesn't sound like a very good god. It sounds to me like he is torturing us.


Again, I will cite one passage from the bible, and this is the last time tonight I will cite this passage.


Romans 9:22-23 (New International Version)
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory


God loves some men to show His mercy and glory and love (he shows this by having an Elect few). Other men (most men) He hates, to show His wrath.

i believe some religions won't even allow outsiders to know their beliefs or read their holy texts like the druze and yezidi.

If I understand correctly, Muslims and Jews acknowledge Jesus as a prophet and that his birth was a virgin birth. A friend of ours from Kashmire says that Mary and Jesus are recognized as being most holy.

Jews do not.