NationStates Jolt Archive

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.
erm, i think this is a pretty durn easy question to answer. any group that murders human beings to promote their views is, by definition, not "pro-life."

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.

No. Absolutely not. Those people are the lowest of the low, and they turn my stomach.

I got attacked by 'pro-lifers' while visiting abortion clinics gathering information for a school debate. I can tolerate a lot when it comes to people defending their beliefs, but those people are monsters, plain and simple. They should be removed from society completely.

Look at it this way, at least they're worse at terrorist actions than the Basques.

I got attacked by 'pro-lifers' while visiting abortion clinics gathering information for a school debate. I can tolerate a lot when it comes to people defending their beliefs, but those people are monsters, plain and simple. They should be removed from society completely.
having worked at a clinic that provides counciling and reproductive health services, i have been targetted by anti-choice protesters many times. they stand outside our clinic hurling insults and waving signs with pictures of procedures that haven't been performed in the US in over 20 years. they attack all the people who work in our clinic, even our consultant neonatologist (who is about as far from an "abortion doctor" as you possibly can get). they terrorize women who are coming to the clinic, regardless of WHY they are coming.

the greatest thing i ever saw was when they started shrieking at a middle-aged woman who was coming into the clinic, a woman who was just barely showing pregnant and had her toddler-aged son with her. she endured it for most of the way up the path, and then finally snapped when one of them screamed, "God will send you to hell for what you are doing to your children!"

she spun around, walked straight up to the guy who screamed at her, and screamed right back:

"I'M HERE TO GET MY SON'S PRESCRIPTION FOR HIS ASTHMA MEDICINE. WHERE ARE YOUR CHILDREN?"

I totaly agree it is rather contradictory them calling them selfs "pro-life" and then killing people. What are yor opinions on abortion as a topic? who do you think abortion should if at all be regulated?

My personal opinion is that abortion should only be used when it will affect the health, well-being, or mental state of the mother and child and not as a form of controception.

But what do you think?

Fine if they believe abortions are immoral. But they need to leave other people the hell alone. I'm sure they'd love it if you followed them around and protested their private life.

They should be removed from society completely.
I disagree. Why not try to rehabilitate them?

having worked at a clinic that provides counciling and reproductive health services, i have been targetted by anti-choice protesters many times. they stand outside our clinic hurling insults and waving signs with pictures of procedures that haven't been performed in the US in over 20 years. they attack all the people who work in our clinic, even our consultant neonatologist (who is about as far from an "abortion doctor" as you possibly can get). they terrorize women who are coming to the clinic, regardless of WHY they are coming.
What procedures do they use today?

What procedures do they use today?
um, that's kind of a long list. contrary to popular myths, "having an abortion" does not simply mean "having a D&C" or "having a hose shoved into your uterus." there are a number of different procedures and variations on procedures, ranging from taking a pill to having major surgery, all falling under the heading of "abortive procedures."

They- that is the protesters- who often- as i understand- picket clinics and do not allow women to enter the clinic presumably with force should be charged and procecuted with asault as this is what they are doing. I have no problem with them priotgesting but they have no write to stop women entering an abortion clinic.
Christian voice are the same groupe that protested at "Jerry Springer the Opera" and who want the proposed law that will make it illegal to say/ do anything that will offend any religion in Britain. this is shorly in contry to the freedom of speach write. I do understand that it will stop people herling abuse at religious groups but it will also stop people critisiseing any religion. I take the stand that if religion is so good it should be able to take a little critisium.

um, that's kind of a long list. contrary to popular myths, "having an abortion" does not simply mean "having a D&C" or "having a hose shoved into your uterus." there are a number of different procedures and variations on procedures, ranging from taking a pill to having major surgery, all falling under the heading of "abortive procedures."
Ahh. I see.

Ahh. I see.
for example, our clinic can provide "morning after" pills, but our doctors could only perform a "major" abortive procedure in an emergency situation. the protesters outside our clinic who were waving signs with trumped up pictures of supposed D&C procedures were just plain silly...for one thing, their pictures are quite obviously fake (as anybody who has seen the aftermath of a legal, medical abortion would know), and for another, our clinic has NEVER performed D&Cs. they're just constructing yet another straw man that they can burn.

I have read the views given by most people so far and - for the reasons they give - I wholly agree that what this movement "Christian Voice" is doing is wrong, immoral and runs contrary to what being a "Christian" is all about.

This group is composed of religious zealots which will stop at nothing to impose its narrow-minded and reactionary world-view on everyone else. Although I welcome freedom of expression, I stop supporting protest when it leads to violence, intimidation and murder.

I have read today's Times newspaper, which refers to "radical" and "fundamental" Christians. I thought a "fundamental" Christian interprets the Bible literally. I was, therefore, surprised to read that many "fundamental" pro-life groups appear to be able to read a condition to the Ten Commandments that nobody else can - "Thou shalt not kill unless he/she works at, attends, receives treatment from or visits an abortion clinic".

It is just another display of how religious values are hijacked and manipulated to make the aims of despots appear just.

for example, our clinic can provide "morning after" pills, but our doctors could only perform a "major" abortive procedure in an emergency situation. the protesters outside our clinic who were waving signs with trumped up pictures of supposed D&C procedures were just plain silly...for one thing, their pictures are quite obviously fake (as anybody who has seen the aftermath of a legal, medical abortion would know), and for another, our clinic has NEVER performed D&Cs. they're just constructing yet another straw man that they can burn.
What exactly is a D&C?

And fake pictures? Reminds me of when I looked up abortion pics and got pics of plastic dolls and ketchup instead. :p I should've known they were fakes. :headbang: Next time, I won't be so gullible... :D

I have read the views given by most people so far and - for the reasons they give - I wholly agree that what this movement "Christian Voice" is doing is wrong, immoral and runs contrary to what being a "Christian" is all about.

This group is composed of religious zealots which will stop at nothing to impose its narrow-minded and reactionary world-view on everyone else. Although I welcome freedom of expression, I stop supporting protest when it leads to violence, intimidation and murder.

I have read today's Times newspaper, which refers to "radical" and "fundamental" Christians. I thought a "fundamental" Christian interprets the Bible literally. I was, therefore, surprised to read that many "fundamental" pro-life groups appear to be able to read a condition to the Ten Commandments that nobody else can - "Thou shalt not kill unless he/she works at, attends, receives treatment from or visits an abortion clinic".

It is just another display of how religious values are hijacked and manipulated to make the aims of despots appear just.

Seconded.

What exactly is a D&C?
a Dilation and curettage (D&C) is a procedure to remove tissue from inside the uterus. the woman is positioned on the exam table in the same position used for a pelvic exam or Pap test, and a speculum is inserted into the vagina. the vagina and cervix are cleaned with an antiseptic solution. general anesthesia is usually used for a D&C; medication (anesthesia) is injected into a vein (intravenous, or IV). the cervix is grasped with an instrument to hold the uterus in place. the cervical canal is dialated with a small probe, as dilation reduces the risk of any injury to the cervix during the procedure. a laminaria or synthetic dilator may be inserted hours before this part of the procedure to help dilate the cervix. a curved instrument (curette) is passed into the uterus and used to gently scrape the lining of the uterus and remove the tissue in the uterus.

this procedure usually takes about 10 minutes, and is an "outpatient" surgery option. it does not require an overnight stay. it can be performed at a clinic (doesn't have to be done in a hospital), but there actually aren't that many clinics which provide this option any more.


And fake pictures? Reminds me of when I looked up abortion pics and got pics of plastic dolls and ketchup instead. :p I should've known they were fakes. :headbang: Next time, I won't be so gullible... :D
yeah, that's one of my pet peeves; these "righteous" protesters use fake pictures! i guess God loves a liar...

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.
Ok. I think that abortion should be made illegal. You should write something to Congress or take a law suit to the Supreme Court. Or you could just kill people... :mp5:

what a whole lot of crap this is...
Pro-life my ass...imagine had we no abotion choices.what happends to raped women..women who have contraceptive failures? Oh what? The child's life is more important? What idiotic reasoning of logic...
Think for a moment...what happens to these women is that their life will no longer belong to them...dooming any hope of a future of their choice and further more dooming the child to a mother whom is unprepared to nurture him/her.You dumbass christian radicals are so farked up i wonder where your brains are...you'd doom society to rot with your ways...hitler should have had mass death squads for you kind and not the jews...
:cool: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper:

I call them anti-choice or pro-birth. Those are more accurate.

No. Absolutely not. Those people are the lowest of the low, and they turn my stomach.

I got attacked by 'pro-lifers' while visiting abortion clinics gathering information for a school debate. I can tolerate a lot when it comes to people defending their beliefs, but those people are monsters, plain and simple. They should be removed from society completely.
I'd have to apply some Maddox-class ass kickery

what a whole lot of crap this is...
Pro-life my ass...imagine had we no abotion choices.what happends to raped women..women who have contraceptive failures? Oh what? The child's life is more important? What idiotic reasoning of logic...
Think for a moment...what happens to these women is that their life will no longer belong to them...dooming any hope of a future of their choice and further more dooming the child to a mother whom is unprepared to nurture him/her.You dumbass christian radicals are so farked up i wonder where your brains are...you'd doom society to rot with your ways...hitler should have had mass death squads for you kind and not the jews...
:cool: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper:
Is it me, or is this attempting to mask a troll or flame?

It's a little over the top.

Yes. It is.

I call them anti-choice or pro-birth. Those are more accurate.

it should be like this:

there are 2 groups, those who are 'pro-life' and those who are 'pro-death'.

It's quite strange isn't it, that the people who so gleefully support killing babies usually tend to be against executing murderers and rapists.

Abortion has been the number 1 holocaust of the 20th century, dwarfing anything done by others. How do pro abortionists soothe their conscience? By calling it "a womans right to choose" and by calling an unborn child 'a fetus'.

having worked at a clinic that provides counciling and reproductive health services, i have been targetted by anti-choice protesters many times. they stand outside our clinic hurling insults and waving signs with pictures of procedures that haven't been performed in the US in over 20 years. they attack all the people who work in our clinic, even our consultant neonatologist (who is about as far from an "abortion doctor" as you possibly can get). they terrorize women who are coming to the clinic, regardless of WHY they are coming.

the greatest thing i ever saw was when they started shrieking at a middle-aged woman who was coming into the clinic, a woman who was just barely showing pregnant and had her toddler-aged son with her. she endured it for most of the way up the path, and then finally snapped when one of them screamed, "God will send you to hell for what you are doing to your children!"

she spun around, walked straight up to the guy who screamed at her, and screamed right back:

"I'M HERE TO GET MY SON'S PRESCRIPTION FOR HIS ASTHMA MEDICINE. WHERE ARE YOUR CHILDREN?"

My God...That's sickening...

Who did that man think he was? I feel sorry for the little dude she was walking with. He shouldn't have had to see that.

it should be like this:

there are 2 groups, those who are 'pro-life' and those who are 'pro-death'.

It's quite strange isn't it, that the people who so gleefully support killing babies usually tend to be against executing murderers and rapists.

Abortion has been the number 1 holocaust of the 20th century, dwarfing anything done by others. How do pro abortionists soothe their conscience? By calling it "a womans right to choose" and by calling an unborn child 'a fetus'.
*Salutes*

A true Pro-lifer! :D

it should be like this:

there are 2 groups, those who are 'pro-life' and those who are 'pro-death'.

It's quite strange isn't it, that the people who so gleefully support killing babies usually tend to be against executing murderers and rapists.

Abortion has been the number 1 holocaust of the 20th century, dwarfing anything done by others. How do pro abortionists soothe their conscience? By calling it "a womans right to choose" and by calling an unborn child 'a fetus'.
boooooooooring.

don't you people ever get sick of spitting the same tired lines over and over and over again?

say kids, let's count the Propaganda Points in this fellow's post!

-use of "pro-death" to refer to those who support reproductive rights
-use of "killing babies" or "baby killers"
-use of "unborn child" and disparagment of the medically accurate term, "fetus."
-reference to the Holocaust, used for emotive effect, with no attempt made to support the parallel
-use of "pro-abortionists," even though the overwhelming majority of pro-choice people are anti-abortion

anybody see others?

*Salutes*

A true Pro-lifer! :D


thanx :D

thanx :D
You're quite welcome :)

boooooooooring.

don't you people ever get sick of spitting the same tired lines over and over and over again?

say kids, let's count the Propaganda Points in this fellow's post!

-use of "pro-death" to refer to those who support reproductive rights
-use of "killing babies" or "baby killers"
-use of "unborn child" and disparagment of the medically accurate term, "fetus."
-reference to the Holocaust, used for emotive effect, with no attempt made to support the parallel
-use of "pro-abortionists," even though the overwhelming majority of pro-choice people are anti-abortion

anybody see others?
What's the definition of a pro-choice person,?

-reference to the Holocaust, used for emotive effect, with no attempt made to support the parallel

anybody see others?

Yeah, my first thought was Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law).

What's the definition of a pro-choice person,?
Someone who supports the privatization of Social Security.

What's the definition of a pro-choice person,?
a person who supports the right of every individual adult human to choose what medical care they feel is appropriate for themselves. a pro-choice person believes a woman has the right to decide if an abortion is right for her; most pro-choice people admit that they think abortion is horrible and tragic, and most pro-choice people say that they probably wouldn't choose to have an abortion themselves, but they don't claim to have any right to force their opinion onto another person.

saying that pro-choice people are 'pro-abortion' is just plain silly. let me illustrate with a parallel:

i believe that fried chicken is horrible. it's disgusting, its unhealthy, and i would never, EVER choose to put fried chicken in my body. however, i would also never presume to tell other people that they may not eat fried chicken; it's not my place to make that decision for another human being. i cannot, under any circumstances, be considered "pro-fried-chicken," but i am "pro-choice" on the subject of fried chicken consumption.

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.


Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral from a biblical standpoint. Indeed Christ said that one of the worst things one could do, was harm a child. And those who harm unborn children are doing even worse.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of certainty, if you kill those who work in the death factories, God will exalt you for it as you are doing His will.


It is right to kill those who slaughter for profit and who kill without moral cause.

For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

So if you are asking, no Christian need feel a conflict with the gospels if he wishes to kill an abortion doctor, it is indeed the work of God that such be done.

Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral from a biblical standpoint. Indeed Christ said that one of the worst things one could do, was harm a child. And those who harm unborn children are doing even worse.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of certainty, if you kill those who work in the death factories, God will exalt you for it as you are doing His will.


It is right to kill those who slaughter for profit and who kill without moral cause.

For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

So if you are asking, no Christian need feel a conflict with the gospels if he wishes to kill an abortion doctor, it is indeed the work of God that such be done.
NO killing is EVER justified. Whatsoever.

VE, if you want to know why I might think you're a religious fanatic, refer to your above post.

NO killing is EVER justified. Whatsoever.


Genesis 9:6

Matthew 10:34

Matthew 18:7

I could go on all day, you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible and thereby with God Himself.

You argument is not with me, but rather it is with God.

NO killing is EVER justified. Whatsoever.
depends on if you believe in the Bible. the Bible provides specific justification for the killings of over 2 million people! God himself kills close to 400,000 people over the course of the Bible, and orders the killing of some 1.7 million more. the Bible also provides many ways that murderers can justify their actions, just as VE says; the Bible allows you to kill another human for many reasons, most of them centering on the fact that the other person chooses not to agree with you and therefore you get to kill them to shut them up.

Genesis 9:6

Matthew 10:34

Matthew 18:7

I could go on all day, you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible and thereby with God Himself.

You argument is not with me, but rather it is with God.
God, does not exist. Mother Nature does, and she does NOT condone such killings. So there! :p

Genesis 9:6

Matthew 10:34

Matthew 18:7

I could go on all day, you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible and thereby with God Himself.

You argument is not with me, but rather it is with God.

Do not start comrade VE! I do not belive that the Bible is the word of God because it is written by man.

I God wants to speak with me, I'll be here all day.

Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral from a biblical standpoint.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8303886&postcount=346

And you wonder where these suggestions that people like you go around killing while yelling "I'm Elect, God saves me no matter what!"?

Your arguments smack more of psychosis than religion.

Firstly, I'll preface this by saying that I'm personally pro-choice. However, to play devil's advocate here...

Start off with the assumption that every abortion performed is indeed murder. I personally don't believe this, but if you want to get inside the heads of these people and see why they're doing what they're doing, you have to accept some of their axions that you don't accept, in this case that abortion=murder.

So if abortion=murder then I do think that the holocaust analogy holds up. How many aobrtions have been performed since RvW? I don't have the patience to look it up, but I bet more than died in the holocaust. And weren't the US and other countries justified in going to war with Germany to halt the holocaust? Wouldn't we be justified going into Africa right now to stop the genocide? If these killings would stop abortions (and mind you, they probably won't), they'll save a lot more lives in the long run.

[/devil's advocate]

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8303886&postcount=346

And you wonder where these suggestions that people like you go around killing while yelling "I'm Elect, God saves me no matter what!"?

Your arguments smack more of psychosis than religion.


Killing those who commit massacres (30 million massacred babies in the last 30 years) is the will of God. If they are left to continue killing, they'll kill three times more, ten times more, we may not even realize how many more.

Abortion doctors, in my opinion, have forfeited their right to life, when they took it from others.

So if abortion=murder then I do think that the holocaust analogy holds up. How many aobrtions have been performed since RvW? I don't have the patience to look it up, but I bet more than died in the holocaust.





At least 30 million, as many as 40 million, the exact number is between there.

Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral from a biblical standpoint. Indeed Christ said that one of the worst things one could do, was harm a child. And those who harm unborn children are doing even worse.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of certainty, if you kill those who work in the death factories, God will exalt you for it as you are doing His will.


It is right to kill those who slaughter for profit and who kill without moral cause.

For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

So if you are asking, no Christian need feel a conflict with the gospels if he wishes to kill an abortion doctor, it is indeed the work of God that such be done.

And that kind of sickening reasoning is just what the Islamic fundamentalists used to justify 9/11 and other terrorist attacks. Whatever ever happened to "Love your neighbor as you love yourself?" where Jesus said that all the world was our neighbor, as we are all God's children even those who perform abortions. Let me also add that Jesus said "whatever you do to the least of you (the outcasts of society) you do to me". There's also "Hate the sin, not the sinner." I'll end with the fact that the most significant time Jesus expressed religious outrage (money-changers in the temple) he may have stopped their operations (knocked over their tables), but he never harmed ANYONE.

Actually, I lied, I some more points: "judge not, as ye may be judged", "those without sin, cast the first stone", and "seek not justice on earth, for God's justice will be far greater".

Ironically, if fundamentalists truly believed in what the bible teaches, their most logical course of action is to do nothing and let God take care of it. As for that verse about those that kill will be killed by men, it wasn't God condoning it, it was a statement of the most likely outcome according to Human Nature. God doesn't want us to kill anyone, as human nature can turn a single death into a chain of retribution; that's why we have the 5th commandment.

I've graduated from a catholic school k-12; while not studying at a Catholic university, I'm very involved in the campus parish, and I'll be DAMNED if I let people like you use the Word of God in Vain!

I've graduated from a catholic school k-12; while not studying at a Catholic university, I'm very involved in the campus parish, and I'll be DAMNED if I let people like you use the Word of God in Vain!


Catholic? Then you're beyond my help, if you aren't Elect and thus you aren't predestinated to accept Calvinism, you're beyond help and are truly in a state of grave reprobation. If indeed you are not elect, you are right, you will be damned.

I've spent the last 6 hours posting bible passages which totally support the idea that God hates. Yes, God hates. If God loved sinners but only hated the sin, Lucifer would still be in heaven, and his pride would be in hell.


I suggest you do a search through some of my recent threads and you'll get an idea of what was going on because I am going to sleep and don't have the time or inclinations to go through it all again.



http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400212

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400823

Okay, let me ask you this.

If the religious right love children so, why is it that the majority of them support...

-Corporal Punishment
-Abstinence Only Programs (Which lead to increased pregnacy rates)
-Cuts in Medical Care for infants
-Constantly poisoning thier minds with "you're with us or against us" philosophy

And offer...

-No support to unwed or teenage parents
-The constant reminder to said people that they are going straight to hell for their promiscuous tendencies.

Anwser me this...Comrade...

EDIT: Just read your rant against Catholics...Do not push me...

Okay, let me ask you this.

If the religious right love children so, why is it that the majority of them support...

-Corporal Punishment
-Abstinence Only Programs (Which lead to increased pregnacy rates)
-Cuts in Medical Care for infants
-Constantly poisoning thier minds with "you're with us or against us" philosophy

And offer...

-No support to unwed or teenage parents
-The constant reminder to said people that they are going straight to hell for their promiscuous tendencies.

Anwser me this...Comrade...


1) Corporal punishment? Heck, read Deut 21:18-21. Fathers are allowed to kill their sons who disobey them, sons ought to consider themselves lucky to just get off with a good beating if they go against their father.

2) Better to suffer in this life than to lose your soul.

3) If you're a child of an unbeliever, and you die in infancy, you are surely damned into hell.

4) Christ himself said, in the Gospel of Matthew, "Him that is not with me, is against me." Are the words of Christ poison to your ears?




1) Unwed parents deserve no support, if God does not want you, we do not want you.

2) It's our job to remind them! Ezekiel 2:1-8

1) Corporal punishment? Heck, read Deut 21:18-21. Fathers are allowed to kill their sons who disobey them, sons ought to consider themselves lucky to just get off with a good beating if they go against their father.

2) Better to suffer in this life than to lose your soul.

3) If you're a child of an unbeliever, and you die in infancy, you are surely damned into hell.

4) Christ himself said, in the Gospel of Matthew, "Him that is not with me, is against me." Are the words of Christ poison to your ears?


1) Unwed parents deserve no support, if God does not want you, we do not want you.

2) It's our job to remind them! Ezekiel 2:1-8

Is that all you can rely on comrade? A book? Heh...pathetic. How do you know that what Ezekiel and Matthew is right? They are men, and men are imperfect.

And what about the other passages of the Bible, those that flat out PREACH love, forgiveness, tolorance, understanding, kindness, peace, companionship, joy, fellowship...WHAT ABOUT THOSE?

Don't get me wrong, I know people who love the Bible who are excelent, upstanding citizens...they just don't JACK OFF to the Bible on a regular basis!

Semper Fi, Bitch!

And what about the other passages of the Bible, those that flat out PREACH love, forgiveness, tolorance, understanding, kindness, peace, companionship, joy, fellowship...WHAT ABOUT THOSE?




I don't know what demonic pope or false preacher you're listening to. But John Paul II, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham, Jerry Falwell, they are not men of God, they are preaching what most folks want to hear, that God loves them, when the truth is the exact opposite.


2 Timothy 4:2-4
2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage–with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.



God hates those that He pleases to hate. This is clear bible truth. Any preacher who tells you that God is about love, and forgiveness, is telling you what your itching ears want to ear, and is not telling you the truth.



Romans 9:22-23
22 if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory.


The below passage, ought to kill once and for all, the idea that God will forgive anybody or anything.

Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Abortion has been the number 1 holocaust of the 20th century, dwarfing anything done by others. How do pro abortionists soothe their conscience? By calling it "a womans right to choose" and by calling an unborn child 'a fetus'.

What aboutr the actual holocaust? I think that useing the word holocaust is a very dangerous thing as. How can you liken abortion to the systematic murder of millions of people incuding Jews, Jipsies, Homoseuals (the founder of 'Christian Voice' said that homosexuality is "a pathological, an emotional or psychological disorder) and people with lerning/ mental disabilities. I do not see how the two are comparable.

That's it I am done. There is no pont in continuing as it is futile. What I have said is for the benifit of the members of NS and my personal well being.

VoteEarly, I leave you with this statement...

Step outside...look around you...What do you see...business men...lawyers...teachers...

Do you think that's AIR you're breathing!?

Peace!

Killing someone in defense of the life of another is not murder, it is an act of heroism and legally speaking, it is justifiable homicide (and leads to a verdict of not guilty in criminal court). It is sad that the government does not recognize human beings inside the womb as human, but it does not change the fact that it is what they are. People who kill doctors who perform abortions are heroes.

Firstly, I'll preface this by saying that I'm personally pro-choice. However, to play devil's advocate here...

Start off with the assumption that every abortion performed is indeed murder. I personally don't believe this, but if you want to get inside the heads of these people and see why they're doing what they're doing, you have to accept some of their axions that you don't accept, in this case that abortion=murder.

So if abortion=murder then I do think that the holocaust analogy holds up. How many aobrtions have been performed since RvW? I don't have the patience to look it up, but I bet more than died in the holocaust. And weren't the US and other countries justified in going to war with Germany to halt the holocaust? Wouldn't we be justified going into Africa right now to stop the genocide?
[/devil's advocate]
it still doesn't hold up, in any way. abortions are performed based on the wishes of individual citizens, for a huge range of reasons and across a wide range of demographics...they are not being performed at the direction of the goverment or any particular leader, nor are they being performed as part of an organized aggressive effort or attack against any nation or people. you also cannot refer to the practice of abortions as "genocide" because that word refers to systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group; human fetuses are not a national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

Killing someone in defense of the life of another is not murder, it is an act of heroism and legally speaking, it is justifiable homicide (and leads to a verdict of not guilty in criminal court).

actually, there are many cases in which killing somebody because you believe you are defending another life is NOT considered justified homicide. i strongly recommend you learn a bit more about the law before you put your misconceptions into practice.

It is sad that the government does not recognize human beings inside the womb as human, but it does not change the fact that it is what they are.

whether or not fetuses are human beings has no bearing on whether or not abortion should be legal. even if we assume that fetuses are human beings, and deserve exactly the same rights as born humans, a female human still has the right to end a pregnancy at any time and for any reason (based on our laws).


People who kill doctors who perform abortions are heroes.
people who think murder is an ideal solution are cowards.

I agree with the fact that abortion should only be okay if the pregnancy is a danger to the mother or child's life, or possibly in the case of rape. However, as society should have learned, you can say all this stuff but it will still get out of hand. Society is too greedy and they want whatever they want, if that means getting an abortion, that's just what they'll do.

A word about all the biblical passages in this thread, my philosophy teacher often said "if you just look at parts of the bible it will contradict itself, you have to look at it as a whole" in other words, if you look through the bible you can find a line to agree with whatever you want it to, such as murder, but you have to look not only at the line but if it is used in the context you want and everything around it so get the full meaning, better yet, you have to know and understand the entire bible to fully know it's meaning.

As an agnostic, i find all this religious talk quite sickening, using it to justify anything at all is absolutely horrible. I know that no matter what I would never have an abortion, the thought of it does sicken me to know end, however, you have to think of more than just yourself. You have to think about the people that if they carry the child either the mother, child, or both will die, and you have to consider those that were raped and circumstances are beyond their control.

Please don't think you know a person is horrible because they want an abortion, don't think you know anything about anyone you have never met or don't know their exact situation. There's nothing that bothers me more than people who think they know everything about everyone and therefore can try to tell them what to do with their lives.

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.
No, of course not. However, "radical Christians" aren't the only groups willing to resort to extreme means to make a point. PETA and The Earth First people spring to mind.

I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life.

They have no right to call themselves Christian. "Thou Shalt Not Kill." Not, "Thou Shalt Not Kill Everyone You Agree With."

Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral ...For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

Hmmm....

So a man who sheds the blood of a person working at a reproduction facility can fully expect to be executed for shedding the blood of another of God's creations.

My apartment building is across the street from a women's clinic. There are protestors outside the place most days of the week. I'm always afraid that some psychopathic anti-choice terrorist will bomb the place and blow apart half my apartment building in their incompetence. My partner, the generous soul that she is also volunteers her time gardening around the clinic. I also have to live with the fear that some day when she's doing this that some lunatic will plant a bomb in the bushes to take out the place, killing her.

Of course, I live in among the most liberal cities in the country, but that could just make the place more of a target. Simply laughing at the fact that should there be a hell, there's a special place set aside for such terrorists is not enough. It won't stop agony of killing loved ones doing a good deed by helping women in need.

[/qoute]Matthew 12:32
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.[/QUOTE]

*in bender's voice* Well, in that case, I'm boned. Well, guess I had better have fun with the time left! ;) :sniper: :mp5: :fluffle:

Go protest some churches in the neighborhood and see how they like it. Hold up signs with autopsy pictures of people killed in the name of "good christan values", like that gay guy from Wyoming and the clinic doctors who were shot. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

Catholic? Then you're beyond my help, if you aren't Elect and thus you aren't predestinated to accept Calvinism, you're beyond help and are truly in a state of grave reprobation. If indeed you are not elect, you are right, you will be damned.

I've spent the last 6 hours posting bible passages which totally support the idea that God hates. Yes, God hates. If God loved sinners but only hated the sin, Lucifer would still be in heaven, and his pride would be in hell.


I suggest you do a search through some of my recent threads and you'll get an idea of what was going on because I am going to sleep and don't have the time or inclinations to go through it all again.

.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400212

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400823

Dude, there's no evidence to suggest that god exists. That means you can go ahead and have all the gay sex you've ever wanted. Go ahead. It might relax you a little.

I think personally abortion is wrong but killing the people who perform abortionist is wrong. They honestyl belive they are doing somethign good so they should not be punished for that, but cold bloded murderers should be executed. As for radical christains I am also a christain but they are going to far, its okay to voice your opinion try and get laws changed but resorting to vilonce is not good.

Matthew 5:42-44 (Worldwide English (New Testament))

42 When someone asks you for something, give it to him. When someone wants to borrow something from you, let him have it.'

43 You have heard that the law says, "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy."

44 But I tell you, love your enemies. Ask God to do good to those who trouble you.

Two can play at selective bible quotation! :mp5:

If "Vote Early"'s perception of what god's values are true, then perhaps we should be doing everything in our limited, mortal, human power to better ourselves to destroy that god for being an tyrannical and evil menace. Of course, there's no existing evidence to prove it exists so the point is moot.

God hates those that He pleases to hate. This is clear bible truth. Any preacher who tells you that God is about love, and forgiveness, is telling you what your itching ears want to ear, and is not telling you the truth.




I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that God hates you too.

whether or not fetuses are human beings has no bearing on whether or not abortion should be legal. even if we assume that fetuses are human beings, and deserve exactly the same rights as born humans, a female human still has the right to end a pregnancy at any time and for any reason (based on our laws).

Perhaps not, but pro-lifers aren't arguing law. They're arguing morality.

people who think murder is an ideal solution are cowards.

Absolutely, positively true. And yet, there is severe irony in that quote.

I heard once, that anybody can support any position they might have using only one book, and you've guessed it, that book is the Bible. The only book that preaches hate and love, peace and violence, doing that which it doesn't want you to do, and more. I seriously want things to go back to either medieval or Old West customs, where you got to do what you wanted for the most part. America is about freedom, not oppression. But I'm sure God makes reference in the Bible that he wrote in his own hand that freedom is oppression, and only work will make you free (Gee, that sounds like it could either come from nazi Germany, 1984, or even the Bible)

I believe abortion is morally equivilent to murder. I believe it should be legally considered as such.

However, I do approve of the actions of these individuals. While their cause is just and their objectives correct, their methods are deeply flawed.

I find the selective memory of so many pro-choice people to be closed-minded and a bit troubling, seeing how I seem to be the target of their hatred. We've had how many abortion provider murders? 3? 6? You can count them on both hands. How many pro-life people are there in the U.S.? Probably in excess of 100 million. The vast majority of pro-life leaders have repeatedly denounced these murders. And yet, the pro-choice crowd holds stubbornly to their biases, and a six man lunatic fringe is made to speak for many millions of people in their eyes. Sad, really. The state of education in this country...

It is right to kill those who slaughter for profit and who kill without moral cause.

For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
--Matthew 5:43-48

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
--I John 4:8

I believe abortion is morally equivilent to murder. I believe it should be legally considered as such.

However, I do approve of the actions of these individuals. While their cause is just and their objectives correct, their methods are deeply flawed.


okay, fine, so say we have an ideal situation, and the girl just "isn't ready for a kid yet" I'd be fine with letting (relative) morality into everybody's law by just saying, okay, you're not a shining angel. I can't believe there are people who would pervert the message of any religion like this. religions were invented as a way of understanding the world, and explaining things to their kids who ask "why is the sky blue" back before they understood anything about the electromagnetic spectrum. They grew, and took on a new role, to guide people. No religion would interpret itself as intentionally making its followers worse people, ergo, we must interpret religions as people's attempts to make themselves better people, to have a guideline for them to follow. And now we can use your book again: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" this was God's way of telling you "shut the hell up" you aren't perfect, and nobody else is either. belief that you are without sin is pride, and is itself a sin, so by picking up that stone and raising yourself morally, you just lost your right to throw that stone.

okay, fine, so say we have an ideal situation, and the girl just "isn't ready for a kid yet" I'd be fine with letting (relative) morality into everybody's law by just saying, okay, you're not a shining angel. I can't believe there are people who would pervert the message of any religion like this. religions were invented as a way of understanding the world, and explaining things to their kids who ask "why is the sky blue" back before they understood anything about the electromagnetic spectrum. They grew, and took on a new role, to guide people. No religion would interpret itself as intentionally making its followers worse people, ergo, we must interpret religions as people's attempts to make themselves better people, to have a guideline for them to follow. And now we can use your book again: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" this was God's way of telling you "shut the hell up" you aren't perfect, and nobody else is either. belief that you are without sin is pride, and is itself a sin, so by picking up that stone and raising yourself morally, you just lost your right to throw that stone.
You obviously didn't understand what I said. Please don't quote the Bible when you clearly understand neither what you're quoting nor the context.

John 8:7 (KJV): 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Jesus Christ was warning the populace against vigilantes, He was NOT invalidating the laws which were set out for the Israelites in the Old Testament, nor the communal obligation to administer justice and maintain order.

I'm not hear to tell anyone that abortionists are bad people. I'm saying they're murderers, and the laws should treat them accordingly.

... And now we can use your book again: "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" this was God's way of telling you "shut the hell up" you aren't perfect, and nobody else is either. belief that you are without sin is pride, and is itself a sin, so by picking up that stone and raising yourself morally, you just lost your right to throw that stone.


What does that statement have to do with this discussion?

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.

These radicals are not behaving as if they are Christians. They are domestic terrorists, who are mentally ill. Real Christians don't promote killing. In fact, they should not be judging their fellow humans. Judgment is God's job. It is unfortunate that some people who claim to be Christian are really minions of Satan. Where is the love and peace of harrassment of workers at abortion clinics or by pestering women who want abortions? These "Christians" are seeking self glorification by being "better than" the people who choose abortion. That choice is a personal choice. God gave us free will.

These radicals are not behaving as if they are Christians. They are domestic terrorists, who are mentally ill. Real Christians don't promote killing. In fact, they should not be judging their fellow humans. Judgment is God's job. It is unfortunate that some people who claim to be Christian are really minions of Satan. Where is the love and peace of harrassment of workers at abortion clinics or by pestering women who want abortions? These "Christians" are seeking self glorification by being "better than" the people who choose abortion. That choice is a personal choice. God gave us free will.

The admonition not to judge others does not mean that you should stand by while people commit crimes as terrible as murder. If that were the case there would be no legal system whatsoever because you cannot judge. In fact, you should stand by while the Nazis perpetuate a holocaust if you want to be a true christian. No, of course that is not what the bible means. If you know that there is an individual who goes to a certain location every day where he meets with parents who do not want their children, and agrees to murder their children for a price, then God does expect you to do something about it. If the authorities refuse to do anything about it, killing the murderer to stop this from continuing is a reasonable option.

The admonition not to judge others does not mean that you should stand by while people commit crimes as terrible as murder. If that were the case there would be no legal system whatsoever because you cannot judge. In fact, you should stand by while the Nazis perpetuate a holocaust if you want to be a true christian. No, of course that is not what the bible means. If you know that there is an individual who goes to a certain location every day where he meets with parents who do not want their children, and agrees to murder their children for a price, then God does expect you to do something about it. If the authorities refuse to do anything about it, killing the murderer to stop this from continuing is a reasonable option.
Dear LazyHippies, God gave man the power to rule over other men. There are kings, and presidents, prime ministers, and judges. There are laws created by man that man rules upon. In the United States, an abortion is permitted in the first three months after a human sperm cell fertilizes an egg. Christians who disagree with this law, can work within the laws of man and not bomb abortion clinics if they want a change. God does not expect you to hunt and kill murderers. As Jesus said, love your enemy. If someone hits you on the right cheek, turn your face and let him hit you on the left. I don't know where you learned how to interpret the word of God, but I suggest you return to that school and tell them you see the truth now. God does not want men to kill each other. God is the judge. Not you.

What does that statement have to do with this discussion?

were you not paying attention or something? if you believe yourself to be a better person than the clinic worker and thereby have the desire to kill them, you have just broken the 5th commandment whether you carry it out or not. You have become a murderer in your heart.

Dear LazyHippies, God gave man the power to rule over other men. There are kings, and presidents, prime ministers, and judges. There are laws created by man that man rules upon. In the United States, an abortion is permitted in the first three months after a human sperm cell fertilizes an egg. Christians who disagree with this law, can work within the laws of man and not bomb abortion clinics if they want a change. God does not expect you to hunt and kill murderers. As Jesus said, love your enemy. If someone hits you on the right cheek, turn your face and let him hit you on the left. I don't know where you learned how to interpret the word of God, but I suggest you return to that school and tell them you see the truth now. God does not want men to kill each other. God is the judge. Not you.

In life there are different people for different roles. Yes, there are those whose role is (and should be) to lobby for change in the government. There are people whose role is (and should be) to run for office themselves. There are people whose role is (and should be) to become lawyers or judges who can influence such decisions. But then there are also the foot soldiers. There are people whose role is (and should be) that of the enforcer. I agree with you, a change in government policy needs to be pursued, but that is not the way in which everyone is best suited to fight against the murder of children. Stopping those who would murder children from being able to do so still needs to be done, even while change is sought.

This has nothing to do with hate. You dont need to hate someone in order to make the decision to stop them from killing someone else. It also has nothing to do with revenge (which is what turn the other cheek reffers to). It has to do with stopping a murder by any means necessary. If I saw a man holding a gun to a 5 year olds head and getting ready to pull the trigger, I take my chances and attempt to shoot him first. There is no difference here if you accept that the unborn are still human beings who should have all the rights of that 5 year old.

By the way, abortions are allowed all the way up the last month. The decision by the supreme court states that abortions should be allowed in the first three months for any reason at all, in the second three months only when a mothers health is in danger (which applies to every pregnancy because there are always consequences to a mothers health during childbirth), and in the last 3 months only when the mothers life is in danger.

So... VoteEarly's anti-choice argument is: God's an evil, hateful prick.

Huh.

I personally don't like abortion. I can't get my head round that it's a baby in there. Something that if allowed to take it's natural course will become a become a new life form in the very near future. I don't think I could ever get one, unless I got pregnant due to rape or something. If I wasn't ready I think I'd be more likely to have the baby adopted than killed. But I would never forbid other women from going and having one. I don't know what's going on in there heads, what they're cirumstances are or why they consider having an abortion to be the best option. Even if the only reason they give is that they don't want the baby I can't really judge. I've never been pregnant and so have no idea what it's like to have to make that kind of choice.

But these radical groups that target clinics and such, they really disgust me. Especially when they claim they're doing God's work by murdering the employees. God's a big boy, he can do his own work. If God decides some one dies, chances are he has the power to make it happen on his own. Not a hard thing to do compared with making the entire universe. "Thou shalt not kill" implies at least to me that it's meant be God's decision and God's decision alone when someone dies. Doing his job for him probably won't make him all that pleased with you.

were you not paying attention or something? if you believe yourself to be a better person than the clinic worker and thereby have the desire to kill them, you have just broken the 5th commandment whether you carry it out or not. You have become a murderer in your heart.

I dont think they should be killed because they are somehow inferior (they are not). I think they need to be prevented from murdering children by any means necessary. It has nothing to do with hatred or revenge or feeling better than them. It has to do with stopping them from murdering someone.

Go protest some churches in the neighborhood and see how they like it. Hold up signs with autopsy pictures of people killed in the name of "good christan values", like that gay guy from Wyoming and the clinic doctors who were shot. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

Matthew Shepard? that was simply a robbery gone out of hand...

The people who kill abortion doctors are evil. So are abortion doctors. They are both murderers. The abortion doctor is a nazi SS scumbag baby-killer and the bomber is going against Jesus word of revenge.

You obviously didn't understand what I said. Please don't quote the Bible when you clearly understand neither what you're quoting nor the context.

John 8:7 (KJV): 7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Jesus Christ was warning the populace against vigilantes, He was NOT invalidating the laws which were set out for the Israelites in the Old Testament, nor the communal obligation to administer justice and maintain order.

I'm not hear to tell anyone that abortionists are bad people. I'm saying they're murderers, and the laws should treat them accordingly.

1) since when has context mattered to a rampant bible quoter? example, see: anybody who has ever quoted the bible, ever, this now includes yourself
2)your context is exactly the same as it was being used, and there is no reference to vigilantes in it. i see it as only those who are free from bias can purely judge, but nobody is that pure.
3)So you believe that people whose status necessitates that they cannot take on a child is a murderer, and what about the ones who physically couldn't have the child, or children who die in the womb late, and need to be removed. The problem with your world is your inability to see grays. That's pretty much where EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD is. And theses doctors who do this, I doubt they have a bumper sticker that says "forget about the condom, I have a coat hanger!".
4)Fetuses have no nervous sytem and therefore, neither think, nor feel. at this point, it is merely a thing. beyond that sure, I'd like a damn good reason whyn it has to be killed, but before, all i need is some reason.
5)so anyone who kills is a murderer. that's the definition. can you say one murder is "better" than any other? no. then these protesters are every bit as bad as the people they are advocating against.

don't you people ever get sick of spitting the same tired lines over and over and over again?

No, we will never let the murderers get away without being made to feel guilty.


-use of "pro-death" to refer to those who support reproductive rights


you forget one very significant thing, when a woman is pregnant, the baby is INSIDE her but NOT part of her. She has the right to decide over her own body but the baby's body is not part of that right, never has been, never will be.

and I don't care if fetus is a medically correct term, what is at stake is something fundamental, the reproductive process has been set in motion and the new life is on it's way, and then the babykillers gleefully want to see it terminated.

A woman deciding to terminate the life that grows inside her is an accomplice to murder, much the same way that a person who decides to kill another persion is, even if that person get's another person to kill that person.

This is crazy, killing aborsotion doctors becuase they preform a medical procedure that their cleint CHOOSE to go through is just plain idiotic. Religions need to back off and realise that there values don't run western democratic policies.

I dont think they should be killed because they are somehow inferior (they are not). I think they need to be prevented from murdering children by any means necessary. It has nothing to do with hatred or revenge or feeling better than them. It has to do with stopping them from murdering someone.

But now you're playing devil's advocate and predicting their future. And while it may be heavily supported by evidence, the future is never certain.
Alternately, they are indeed killing in response to the past, which is vengeance, and is not seen as a very nice thing.

But now you're playing devil's advocate and predicting their future. And while it may be heavily supported by evidence, the future is never certain.
Alternately, they are indeed killing in response to the past, which is vengeance, and is not seen as a very nice thing.

Riiiight. There is no prediction involved, they are abortion doctors, thats what they do day in and day out. You dont need any amount of prediction, you know for a fact that unless they put in their two weeks notice two weeks ago, they are going to kill people when they go back to work. Thats assuming they are not killed while at work, which would make it more obvious that they plan on killing people, they are just waiting for those people to come in. Your argument is extremely weak. I dont support the killing of retired abortion doctors or ex-abortion doctors. I support only what is necessary to stop someone who is about to commit a crime. Using your weak argument it would be wrong of me to assume that the person holding a gun up to a childs head is going to kill him (maybe it is an idle threat, or maybe he will change his mind and wont pull the trigger), so therefore I should not shoot him to save the child, I should wait until after he shoots but if I do that then I can no longer shoot him anyway because it would be out of revenge! Come on, you can think of something more intelligent to say than that.

The admonition not to judge others does not mean that you should stand by while people commit crimes as terrible as murder. If that were the case there would be no legal system whatsoever because you cannot judge. In fact, you should stand by while the Nazis perpetuate a holocaust if you want to be a true christian. No, of course that is not what the bible means. If you know that there is an individual who goes to a certain location every day where he meets with parents who do not want their children, and agrees to murder their children for a price, then God does expect you to do something about it. If the authorities refuse to do anything about it, killing the murderer to stop this from continuing is a reasonable option.
I do hope you know the difference between judging some one in the moral realm and judging some one in the legal and societal realm

Yeah... Do not let that group make you think thats what all christians are like. Yeah i dont like abortion clinics or the people who get abortions but you dont see me going out and just killing them. If they were true christians then they would know killing is against Gods law.

Riiiight. There is no prediction involved, they are abortion doctors, thats what they do day in and day out. You dont need any amount of prediction, you know for a fact that unless they put in their two weeks notice two weeks ago, they are going to kill people when they go back to work. Thats assuming they are not killed while at work, which would make it more obvious that they plan on killing people, they are just waiting for those people to come in. Your argument is extremely weak. I dont support the killing of retired abortion doctors or ex-abortion doctors. I support only what is necessary to stop someone who is about to commit a crime. Using your weak argument it would be wrong of me to assume that the person holding a gun up to a childs head is going to kill him (maybe it is an idle threat, or maybe he will change his mind and wont pull the trigger), so therefore I should not shoot him to save the child, I should wait until after he shoots but if I do that then I can no longer shoot him anyway because it would be out of revenge! Come on, you can think of something more intelligent to say than that.

okay, how about this, an "abortion doctor" as you so eloquently put it has other jobs than merely "killing people" Abortions aren't as steady as you people would love to believe. They have other responsibilities. And in the case of the guy with the gun, yeah, he's just shown himself to be a threat to a living human and should be dispatched with extreme prejudice. I think what every one of you people see an abortion clinic as is a place where women go and give live birth, then the doctor smashes the fucker all over the wall, and then little mary abortion skips out on her merry way only to plan her next abortion. And while some women (read: less than .001%) see it as a minor inconvenience, i'll wager, this is a tougher decision than you will ever have to make.

I stripped this out of VoteEarly's earlier post:3) If you're a child of an unbeliever, and you die in infancy, you are surely damned into hell.
Since I'm an unbeliever, I'd be doing my fetus a favor by having an abortion. At least according to VE.

To all the bible thumpers using said book as an arguement against abortion: Where does it say abortion is murder? :confused:

And kudos for Commando2- Nice to have one of our favorite nuts back. :D

To all the bible thumpers using said book as an arguement against abortion: Where does it say abortion is murder? :confused:



the commandment that says, thou shalt not kill

the commandment that says, thou shalt not kill
I know that. :rolleyes: I want to know where it says abortion is murder ie unlawful killing. If "thou shallt not kill" is exactly what it meant, why go by a book that condemns your namesake? :gundge:

Killing abortion clinic workers is perfectly moral from a biblical standpoint. Indeed Christ said that one of the worst things one could do, was harm a child. And those who harm unborn children are doing even worse.

I don't remember him expressing the opinion that a fetus was a fully fledged human being. I do remember something about not returning evil for evil.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of certainty, if you kill those who work in the death factories, God will exalt you for it as you are doing His will.

You can tell us whatever you damn well please, but it's not going to carry much weight unless you can support it. There is no legitimate moral philosophy for you to appeal to. Your reasoning seems to go something like this "I'm a Christian, therefore whatever I think the Christian thing to do is is the Christian thing to do. I'm against abortion and those who perform them. They make me wrathful and want to kill them. That must be OK because I think it and I'm a Christian." You're overlooking the possibility that you could be a sadistic jerk as well as a Christian. The desire to take away women's reproductive rights by violent means could be a facet of the sadist in you rather than the Christian.


It is right to kill those who slaughter for profit and who kill without moral cause.

For it is written, Genesis 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

So if you are asking, no Christian need feel a conflict with the gospels if he wishes to kill an abortion doctor, it is indeed the work of God that such be done.

Um, no. Nothing you presented here says that it's ok to kill people if you think they're doing something wrong. It says that if you do it someone will come along and kill you. So by your logic it would be perfectly alright for me to walk down to one of these Christo-fascist pep-rallies with a weedsprayer full of gasoline and light it up, because I have a moral reason (preserving freedom of choice).

the commandment that says, thou shalt not kill
actually, that particular commandment translates as "thou shalt not MURDER." killing is justified for many reasons in the Bible, and the Bible includes a specific passage that indicates a fetus' life is NOT equal to a born human life. it's the passage about retribution for assault of a pregnant woman...anybody happen to have a Bible on hand?

the commandment that says, thou shalt not kill

Note that it stops there. It doesn't say "thou shalt not kill unless you really want to" or "... Unless you think they deserve it" or "...it seemed like a good idea at the time, or even "...unless you're pretty sure that they did first."

Hmmm....

So a man who sheds the blood of a person working at a reproduction facility can fully expect to be executed for shedding the blood of another of God's creations.



The idea is whoever kills man on purpose with malice, ought to be killed. It's basically an eye for an eye.

The idea is whoever kills man on purpose with malice, ought to be killed. It's basically an eye for an eye.
so you can kill an abortion doctor, because he killed babies. but then his brother can kill you, and then your friend can kill his brother, and then your friend can be killed by the roommate of the doctor's brother...

there's plenty of malice to go around. why not just all murder each other until nobody is left to make the fetuses that might be aborted?

I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that God hates you too.


I'm part of God's remnant, God's Elect, He has fixed His eternal love on me, since I'm part of His Elect.

Lazyhippie - a fetus is NOT a person. So, abortion doctors are not commiting murder each time they show up at work and do their job. Now, since you are fairly vocal about saying it is wrong to kill a person, I have to assume you are also against the death penalty. Honestly, I am sick to death of pro-lifers and their mantra - thou shall not kill. The state sanctions killing ALL the damn time. What about the war in Iraq? Seems to me the President, Congress and a good number of Americans support the killing of innocent people every day in Iraq. It appears to me that the U.S. is getting ready to kill lots of innocent Iranians any day now.....

Note that it stops there. It doesn't say "thou shalt not kill unless you really want to" or "... Unless you think they deserve it" or "...it seemed like a good idea at the time, or even "...unless you're pretty sure that they did first."

As has already been mentioned here, the bible does not say thou shalt not kill. That is an incorrect translation. It is a popular mistranslation because it is in the King James Version which was very popular for many years. What it really says is not to murder. There is a big difference. It is not wrong to kill under certain circumstances (to protect yourself or someone else, as an act of war, etc.). It is wrong to murder.

okay, fine, so say we have an ideal situation, and the girl just "isn't ready for a kid yet" I'd be fine with letting (relative) morality into everybody's law by just saying, okay, you're not a shining angel.


A woman who has an abortion for a legitimate issue such as rape or to avoid dying in a complicate pregnancy, I could stomach that. A woman who has an abortion as a form of birth control, well I'd say, "You were ready enough to have sex, either deal with the consequences or invent a time machine, go back in time, and tell yourself to keep your legs crossed."

Any woman who uses abortion as a form of birth control, ought to be taken out to the city gates, and stoned by the city elders.

I could see abortions in cases of rape and life threatening situations to the mother, but abortion used as birth control is an abomination and any nation which allows it to happen, will surely gain the eternal hatred of God and shall be plagued by calamities.

Lazyhippie - a fetus is NOT a person. So, abortion doctors are not commiting murder each time they show up at work and do their job. Now, since you are fairly vocal about saying it is wrong to kill a person, I have to assume you are also against the death penalty. Honestly, I am sick to death of pro-lifers and their mantra - thou shall not kill. The state sanctions killing ALL the damn time. What about the war in Iraq? Seems to me the President, Congress and a good number of Americans support the killing of innocent people every day in Iraq. It appears to me that the U.S. is getting ready to kill lots of innocent Iranians any day now.....

Correct. I am also against the death penalty and the war in Iraq. I am not against all wars, however. The bible does not say not to kill it says not to murder. There are times when war is acceptable.

erm, i think this is a pretty durn easy question to answer. any group that murders human beings to promote their views is, by definition, not "pro-life."
tru dat

I stripped this out of VoteEarly's earlier post:3) If you're a child of an unbeliever, and you die in infancy, you are surely damned into hell.
Since I'm an unbeliever, I'd be doing my fetus a favor by having an abortion. At least according to VE.

To all the bible thumpers using said book as an arguement against abortion: Where does it say abortion is murder? :confused:

And kudos for Commando2- Nice to have one of our favorite nuts back. :D


Actually you can't do it any favors. Only God can, if God fixed His grace on you, and Elected you, you'd accept Him and become a believer (Since faith is a gift from God), and thus your child would become a believer as well, and quite possibly your child would be Elect.

actually, that particular commandment translates as "thou shalt not MURDER." killing is justified for many reasons in the Bible, and the Bible includes a specific passage that indicates a fetus' life is NOT equal to a born human life. it's the passage about retribution for assault of a pregnant woman...anybody happen to have a Bible on hand?


I've always got a bible on hand.

I've always got a bible on hand.
Technically irrelevant whether he realised it or not - different versions say differnt things

Technically irrelevant whether he realised it or not - different versions say differnt things


I have a dozen different versions/translations, which one do you want?

Sorry, LazyHippies, but I won't argue with you over the meaning of the words "killing" and "murder." In my opinion, the result is the same - a human being is dead. Also, I'm not a religious person, so I don't care what the Bible says or doesn't say on the subject. As a thinking, caring, feeling person, I choose to make up my own mind on these topics. As for Vote Early, I suppose you also support making heart patients and cancer patients be responsible for their diseases? After all, if you eat too much fat and become overweight, then you should deal with the after affects, no? I would suggest you grow up a bit. The longer you live on this earth, the more you will realize that life is never so black and white. There are always many shades of gray. We aren't perfect. We're only human.

LazyHippies - I reread your message and I'm glad you don't support the death penalty or the war in Iraq. I am pro-choice. However, I don't think the decision to end a pregnancy is probably an easy one to make. Last week, I had to put down my 16-year-old cat. He was very ill, but nonetheless, it was a sickening decision to make. It torn me up inside.

Sorry, LazyHippies, but I won't argue with you over the meaning of the words "killing" and "murder." In my opinion, the result is the same - a human being is dead. Also, I'm not a religious person, so I don't care what the Bible says or doesn't say on the subject. As a thinking, caring, feeling person, I choose to make up my own mind on these topics. As for Vote Early, I suppose you also support making heart patients and cancer patients be responsible for their diseases? After all, if you eat too much fat and become overweight, then you should deal with the after affects, no? I would suggest you grow up a bit. The longer you live on this earth, the more you will realize that life is never so black and white. There are always many shades of gray. We aren't perfect. We're only human.


Nobody is responsible for their disease, it is the will of God. Everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, happens because it pleases God to make it happen. Everything has a purpose to God and that is all that matters.

I'm part of God's remnant, God's Elect, He has fixed His eternal love on me, since I'm part of His Elect.
I assume from your other posts that you beleive God has spoken to you directly. I ask you this: How do you know it wasn't Satan?

I think that killing abortion doctors is a horrible crime and should be treated as such. I find many things that others do to be morrally evil, but you don't see me killing them. If God truly wants something dead, it will die. He's just being a lot more subtle these days than when he was turning people into salt. Just wish that pretzel had actually worked.

You dumbass christian radicals are so farked up i wonder where your brains are...you'd doom society to rot with your ways...hitler should have had mass death squads for you kind and not the jews..
Actually, he did.

It's quite strange isn't it, that the people who so gleefully support killing babies usually tend to be against executing murderers and rapists.
It's even stranger to me that many pro-lifers are strongly in favour of giving the state power to murder its own citizens. (And execution is undoubtedly murder!)

I also have doubts that someone called "Hitlerreich" places much value on life.

I can tell you this with a fair degree of certainty, if you kill those who work in the death factories, God will exalt you for it as you are doing His will.
If God wants abortion clinic workers dead, why doesn't he just kill them himself?

Seriously, you are one of the only Christians I have ever seen who is more into killing people than helping people.

Since I am new to Nationstates, I'm still trying to figure out if people truly mean what they write in their postings, or if they're merely trying to incite others. So please forgive me VoteEarly, but I must ask, do you really believe EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will? Are you simply trying to stir the pot?

I assume from your other posts that you beleive God has spoken to you directly. I ask you this: How do you know it wasn't Satan?




The Elect will realize their Election by powerful signs in their life.

Since I am new to Nationstates, I'm still trying to figure out if people truly mean what they write in their postings, or if they're merely trying to incite others. So please forgive me VoteEarly, but I must ask, do you really believe EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will? Are you simply trying to stir the pot?


The absolute predestination of all things, why does it seem so unreasonable that I believe in it?

I assume from your other posts that you beleive God has spoken to you directly. I ask you this: How do you know it wasn't Satan?

I think that killing abortion doctors is a horrible crime and should be treated as such. I find many things that others do to be morrally evil, but you don't see me killing them. If God truly wants something dead, it will die. He's just being a lot more subtle these days than when he was turning people into salt. Just wish that pretzel had actually worked.

Actually, I wish people were still being turned into pillars of salt. Wouldn't it be fun to watch? I mean, think of it - you're walking down a busy city street when suddenly there is a large POOF and someone half a block ahead of you is turned into salt! What fun!!!!

I'm part of God's remnant, God's Elect, He has fixed His eternal love on me, since I'm part of His Elect.

I thought Calvinst didn't know who the elect were, that in fact they could only be given hits to if one is. And even those hints can not be totally looked upon because in the end the elect were choosen at the dawn of time or what not and it is not ones actions that make you an elect.

Vote Early, I realize you are more than likely just a troll, but if I might step back here a momement and point out your first post on this thread.

You said you'd personally kill abortion clinic workers in the name of god.

I take offense to this. You wanna kill someone? Try to kill ME. Because I'm not gonna have those I love and cherish killed by you. Since you've declared yourself a terrorist and are clamoring for the murder of innocent people; I will stop you. Even if it means I have to take a bullet you meant for someone else, you'll go to jail and only be a threat to yourself again. I will not let you kill anyone else.

It is a mystery to me what you have not been deleted yet; you actually are advocating the willful murder of my family members and friends. Unforgivable.

Genesis 9:6

Matthew 10:34

Matthew 18:7

I could go on all day, you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the bible and thereby with God Himself.

You argument is not with me, but rather it is with God.
What about "thou shalt not kill"? There's no "but" or "except" there. I find the Bible confusing. It has so many apparent contradictions.

Because VoteEarly, it leaves out the possibility of free will. As I've already stated, I'm not religious. But I know a lot of religious folks (including ministers and priests) do believe in free will. But hey, if it's what you believe, then it's what you believe.

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.

No, obviously not. Anyway, the thread title ought to read "Usual Suspects Plan More Murder Sprees". There's very little of Christ in these Jesus-worshipping criminals.

I'm part of God's remnant, God's Elect, He has fixed His eternal love on me, since I'm part of His Elect.

Your arrogance never ceases to amaze me. Your ideals are continually gearing me towards anger...not something easy to do.

the Bible includes a specific passage that indicates a fetus' life is NOT equal to a born human life. it's the passage about retribution for assault of a pregnant woman...anybody happen to have a Bible on hand?
I do, but see this link.

The Bible (http://bible.gospelcom.net/)

I do, but see this link.

The Bible (http://bible.gospelcom.net/)

Woah...Gotta bookmark that one, that site looks like the shit!

Does 'out of sight, out of mind' mean anything here?

what a whole lot of crap this is...
Pro-life my ass...imagine had we no abotion choices.what happends to raped women..women who have contraceptive failures? Oh what? The child's life is more important? What idiotic reasoning of logic...
Think for a moment...what happens to these women is that their life will no longer belong to them...dooming any hope of a future of their choice and further more dooming the child to a mother whom is unprepared to nurture him/her.You dumbass christian radicals are so farked up i wonder where your brains are...you'd doom society to rot with your ways...hitler should have had mass death squads for you kind and not the jews...
:cool: :mp5: :mp5: :mp5: :sniper: :sniper:
Yes, and no... The mother could just put the child up for adoption. Also, she could get an abortion but what makes me angry is that it is open to everybody and teenagers who have sex before marriage. The teenagers should not be allowed to get an abortion because they had sex in the first place and are too immature to deal with the consequences. And what did the child do to deserve death? This is why I think abortion should only be open to rape victims, and not anybody else.

Does 'out of sight, out of mind' mean anything here?

...My God it just might.

The Elect will realize their Election by powerful signs in their life.
What I'm asking is, how do you know that Satan didn't put those signs in your life? Would a mere mortal be able to see through the deciet of the Prince of Lies? Satan has been doing this whole "evil" thing of his for some time. I'd assume he's pretty good at it by now.

Any woman who uses abortion as a form of birth control, ought to be taken out to the city gates, and stoned by the city elders.

Are these city elders without sin themselves? ;)

Since I am new to Nationstates, I'm still trying to figure out if people truly mean what they write in their postings, or if they're merely trying to incite others. So please forgive me VoteEarly, but I must ask, do you really believe EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will? Are you simply trying to stir the pot?
There's no way to tell whether someone is sincere or lying, except by watching out for inconsistencies in their posts. I think that VoteEarly genuinely believes what he says he does. He's a longtime poster here, and his opinions are very consistent. I think he's for real.

I went to a funeral yesterday of a baby who lived for just one day. He was 26 weeks gestation. For his mum and dad who held him in their arms he was a real human being, their child. I can't help but think that he was still a human being the day before he was born. Just because he wasn't viewable or holdable didn't make him any less the person he was.

As a semi-devout Roman Catholic I kind of have an interesting view on abortion... I'm not all for it, but I'm not all against it, either.

For example, if you have a woman who lives a very permiscuous lifestyle and sleeps around a lot, and then gets pregnant, but doesn't want to have a baby, then tough luck, it's a consequence of her actions and she should take responsibility for the child.

However, if a woman is raped and gets pregnant as a result, and she doesn't want the child, then it's ok to get an abortion.

And then you have the case where you have a husband and wife or a boyfriend and girlfriend who sleep together, and the woman gets pregnant but didn't plan for it. If they want the child, great, but if they don't want it and don't feel they're ready... well that's kind of iffy. I don't really know what you'd do there hehe

What I'm asking is, how do you know that Satan didn't put those signs in your life? Would a mere mortal be able to see through the deciet of the Prince of Lies? Satan has been doing this whole "evil" thing of his for some time. I'd assume he's pretty good at it by now.

Precisely. And if it is in fact God speaking to him...I'm not certain I'd want to believe in a God that's a complete and utter prick.

Which I don't. If anything, God is a big, happy fella with a long beard, a bottle of root beer in one hand, a corn dog in the other, and is wearing a "Life is Good" T-Shirt even as we speak.

To voteearly and others interested in bible scriptures:

Spoken by Jesus in Matthew chapter 5: "44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spirefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"

Spoken by Jesus Christ in Luke chapter 6: "27 But I say to you who hear: Love you enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spirefully use you."

Romans 7:24 & 25 "Who will deliver me from this body of death? I think God-through Jesus Christ our Lord"

Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, of sword?" 38 & 39 "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everylasting life."

Wait let me read that again, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that "the elect" should not perish... no wait that's NOT what it says!

Voteearly and others, I believe in Jesus Christ, therefore I WILL NOT perish, and WILL have everlasting life. ALL scripture is inspired by the word of God and that tells me that God loves me, he died for ME on a cross, and through Him I will worship in heaven for all of my days.

To voteearly and others interested in bible scriptures:

Spoken by Jesus in Matthew chapter 5: "44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spirefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven"

Spoken by Jesus Christ in Luke chapter 6: "27 But I say to you who hear: Love you enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spirefully use you."

Romans 7:24 & 25 "Who will deliver me from this body of death? I think God-through Jesus Christ our Lord"

Romans 8:35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, of sword?" 38 & 39 "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everylasting life."

Wait let me read that again, For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that "the elect" should not perish... no wait that's NOT what it says!

Voteearly and others, I believe in Jesus Christ, therefore I WILL NOT perish, and WILL have everlasting life. ALL scripture is inspired by the word of God and that tells me that God loves me, he died for ME on a cross, and through Him I will worship in heaven for all of my days.

Amen my brother! Amen!

But...Jesus ain't the only way.

As a semi-devout Roman Catholic I kind of have an interesting view on abortion... I'm not all for it, but I'm not all against it, either.

For example, if you have a woman who lives a very permiscuous lifestyle and sleeps around a lot, and then gets pregnant, but doesn't want to have a baby, then tough luck, it's a consequence of her actions and she should take responsibility for the child.

However, if a woman is raped and gets pregnant as a result, and she doesn't want the child, then it's ok to get an abortion.

And then you have the case where you have a husband and wife or a boyfriend and girlfriend who sleep together, and the woman gets pregnant but didn't plan for it. If they want the child, great, but if they don't want it and don't feel they're ready... well that's kind of iffy. I don't really know what you'd do there hehe

Are adults more important than children? With due respect, you seem only concerned about the adults here.

Well, after skimming the first page, then checking the "Christian Voice" web page (And laughing, did anyone else actually look there?) I really think you people take what others think too seriously. In fact, everyone seems to take what others think too seriously, these people who murder in the name of saving lives are probably the most extreme example of this.

Now, my views on abortion? I say let them! What effect does it have on me? None. As long as it's a free choice and not being forced on me.
On the other hand, these people who wish to force their beliefs on me do effect me directly, and in a way I don't like.
There, argument settled, let them do what they want because I don't care as long as it doesn't effect me.


As for killing people based on religious scripture, well..
Since the holy scripture of "The envoys of Akka" states:
"To empty the wells, to empty the wells of the land,
to empty the shallow wells of the land,
to empty the deep wells of the land furnished with hoisting ropes:
Let us not submit to the house of Kish, let us wage war!"

I interpret this to mean that I am bound by the gods not to allow any human to dictate my life unless I choose to let them. Thus a pro-choice statement.
Follow that up with both the Annunaki and the Igigi supporting the actions of Bilgames and the city of Uruk (Where the above statement takes place), then naturally the gods demand I oppose these weirdoes who wish to force their beliefs upon me.
And since my religion predates even the Hebrews by a few thousand years, I believe it's more correct.
Thus the gods give me the right to kill those who try to kill for their false beliefs.


See, I twisted scripture in my favor. Now let us all laugh and just let people choose what they want because not everyone believs the same things.

Well, after skimming the first page, then checking the "Christian Voice" web page (And laughing, did anyone else actually look there?) I really think you people take what others think too seriously. In fact, everyone seems to take what others think too seriously, these people who murder in the name of saving lives are probably the most extreme example of this.

Now, my views on abortion? I say let them! What effect does it have on me? None. As long as it's a free choice and not being forced on me.
On the other hand, these people who wish to force their beliefs on me do effect me directly, and in a way I don't like.
There, argument settled, let them do what they want because I don't care as long as it doesn't effect me.


As for killing people based on religious scripture, well..
Since the holy scripture of "The envoys of Akka" states:
"To empty the wells, to empty the wells of the land,
to empty the shallow wells of the land,
to empty the deep wells of the land furnished with hoisting ropes:
Let us not submit to the house of Kish, let us wage war!"

I interpret this to mean that I am bound by the gods not to allow any human to dictate my life unless I choose to let them. Thus a pro-choice statement.
Follow that up with both the Annunaki and the Igigi supporting the actions of Bilgames and the city of Uruk (Where the above statement takes place), then naturally the gods demand I oppose these weirdoes who wish to force their beliefs upon me.
And since my religion predates even the Hebrews by a few thousand years, I believe it's more correct.
Thus the gods give me the right to kill those who try to kill for their false beliefs.


See, I twisted scripture in my favor. Now let us all laugh and just let people choose what they want because not everyone believs the same things.

Well put. And I sincerly hope this post KILLS the thread.

What I'm asking is, how do you know that Satan didn't put those signs in your life? Would a mere mortal be able to see through the deciet of the Prince of Lies? Satan has been doing this whole "evil" thing of his for some time. I'd assume he's pretty good at it by now.


Satan has no power yet over the Earth, it has not come to that yet. God is the author of all good and evil. Thus when men sin, they are only doing what God compels them to do. That way after they die, they will have no case to raise against His damning them into hell.

God makes those He hates, sin, and sin greatly, that way they will have absolutely no ground to stand on to defend themselves against His damning them into hell.

God is the author of all sin and all good. If you are good, it is because God wills you to be, if you are bad, it is because He wills that as well.

If you oppose abortion as part of opposing all killing, I can respect that, but in many cases, I doubt that is why they are opposed to abortion.

Religious terrorism is religious terrorism, whether it is fundementalist muslims blowing up a church or synogogue, fundementalist christians burning down a mosque or fundementalists christians murdering people because of their views on abortion.

Perhaps we should ask the question: What makes an unborn fetus a human being?

Killing is sanctioned on a daily basis for a variety of causes. Whether it is the death penalty, shooting at brown people in a war 12,000 miles away, or slaughtering thousands upon thousands of cows. (For the record, I'm not a vegetarian, I just don't trust 95% of most meat sources to process food in a safe, sanitary, or humane manner.) Obviously, there is a distinctive line drawn between the human and the other. Presumably this line is consciousness and self-awareness. The religious among us, of course, posit there is an intangible, ethereal substance of a soul.

However, when we are talking about a medical procedure, we cannot rely on something as base as opinion, belief, or faith. We need something a bit more concrete. What are the concrete, tangible distinctions that we can determine between "lesser" animals and humankind?

Thought, freedom to choose and debate information? To make rational decisions? These things you can pluck out. A better solution for determining when it is okay and not okay to abort a fetus would be to base the issue on somethign concrete like neural development. Neural development can be measured to an extent. Our knowledge of neural structures and how they relate to actual thought processes and decision making capabilities is limited, but we do know enough to make a judgement on when the capacity has exceeded that of the average domesticated house cat. (For the record, this takes quite some time, and occasionally occurs weeks or months after birth.) Granted, I would never encourage euthanising a viable living child after birth. However, a massive of cells, with barely distinctive functions is not enough to make a fetus human. For the first few months, in fact, the fetus has as much in common with a fish or chicken. We kill chickens all the time. (Some people even find them tasty, despite that some of the sources may become the cause of the next great flu pandemic.) So what if the genetic information (you can liken this information to a string of very complicated information; like an extraordinairily detailed computer application made of organic material).

According to some christian doctrines, it is a sin to destroy reproductive material by projecting it through rapid stimulation of genitals into one's hand. the problem is that these various and factious views on mortality are extremely subjective. That one fallible, self-righteous person can make a judgement to remove a life of a certifiably viable human adult through violent assault and others legitimize it is a great tragedy. If this were to happen over all manners of things, say if we were to fall back to the premise of "eye for an eye," making the whole world blind would be the least of our problems.

Personally, I'm down w/ the rule of law over the rule of man. It keeps people from digging each other's throats out.

Those who attempt to kill innocents by taking what they self-righteously believe is justice into their own vile hands should by no means have any punishment withheld by the law.

Satan has no power yet over the Earth, it has not come to that yet. God is the author of all good and evil. Thus when men sin, they are only doing what God compels them to do. That way after they die, they will have no case to raise against His damning them into hell.

God makes those He hates, sin, and sin greatly, that way they will have absolutely no ground to stand on to defend themselves against His damning them into hell.

God is the author of all sin and all good. If you are good, it is because God wills you to be, if you are bad, it is because He wills that as well.

Yes, that is your belief and opinion.

http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/abortion_types/saltabortion19wk.jpg


still happens in brazil

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/abortion_types/saltabortion19wk.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.campaignlifecoalition.com/abortion_types/&h=184&w=259&sz=13&tbnid=hCQQRbTXPyUJ:&tbnh=76&tbnw=107&start=3&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dabortions%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

still happens here

I have no problem with abortions carried out during the first trimester of pregnancy - for what ever reason/s. It is the woman's right to decide and I fully support that.

Not every abortion is going to be ethical, I think it depends on the circumstances underwhich the choice is made. But none the less, we aren't killing a person and therefore it's not murder. We are killing a clump of cells that are no more developed than a frog. The embryo is a potential person, and we cannot confuse potentiality with actuality. I place higher value on the life of the mother, whose personhood cannot be denied.

And those who kill to get the pro-life message across are just plain hypocrites.

And those who kill to get the pro-life message across are just plain hypocrites.


I prefer the term "Anti-abortion" to pro-life. Since I'm for killing in certain special cases (capital punishment, war, etc)

I prefer the term "Anti-abortion" to pro-life. Since I'm for killing in certain special cases (capital punishment, war, etc)

Yeah, I was going to use that term. Since those who kill to further the cause obviously aren’t pro-life, just anti-abortion. Point noted.

I prefer the term "Anti-abortion" to pro-life. Since I'm for killing in certain special cases (capital punishment, war, etc)


At least you admit to being anti-abortion, and not nessicarily pro-life.
What are your oppnions on those who claim to be pro-life, yet murder for their cause? I trust you agree that those are hypocrates?

Thou shal not murder

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Old French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

come on. if you kill people it's murder Especially if you planned it and the last time i checked 99.9% of those bombings and killings were planed (with malice aforethought). i mean bombs don't make themselves people. which makes the people who commited them murders and should therefore make them criminals in the eyes of the law and man.

and just for a refresher.
Main Entry: 2criminal
Function: noun
1 : one who has committed a crime

hopefully nobody needs the definiton of what a crime is

I'm part of God's remnant, God's Elect, He has fixed His eternal love on me, since I'm part of His Elect.
I've always wondered about the concept of being in the quote Elect unquote. It seems like the least humble approach to the afterlife I have to date encountered. A predestined and guaranteed slot in Heaven? "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom", yeah?

And just to put another one out there, there's this bit from Ephesians 4...
4:26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on the cause of your anger. 4:27 Do not give the devil an opportunity. 4:28 The one who steals must steal no longer; rather he must labor, doing good with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with the one who has need. 4:29 You must let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but only what is beneficial for the building up of the one in need, that it may give grace to those who hear. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 4:31 You must put away every kind of bitterness, anger, wrath, quarreling, and evil, slanderous talk. 4:32 Instead, be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you.

I've always wondered about the concept of being in the quote Elect unquote. It seems like the least humble approach to the afterlife I have to date encountered. A predestined and guaranteed slot in Heaven? "When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom", yeah?

And just to put another one out there, there's this bit from Ephesians 4...
i think i agree with you on that

Because VoteEarly, it leaves out the possibility of free will. As I've already stated, I'm not religious. But I know a lot of religious folks (including ministers and priests) do believe in free will. But hey, if it's what you believe, then it's what you believe.
My thing is less free will than the sheer gall involved in the presumption of the outcome of God's chosen predestination. It makes Heaven sound like a matter of booking reservations and demanding a room from the concierge when one dies.

Richard Holloway is my most favorite of all bishops ever...

Yes, and no... The mother could just put the child up for adoption.
Piss a golf ball (The comparitive sizes should be right. If not, try a baseball or something.) then tell us that the mother should go throught the agony of childbirth.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The whole "pro-life" arguement is just an attempt to punish women for enjoying sex.

With the recent news that Christian Voice has threatened to picket abortion clinics and “target the employees” I was just wondering what the fine people of nation stats thought about abortion and the pro-life groups who have killed 6 people in America to give a child a chance at life. Is this right? Is the killing of abortion clinic workers justified by the saving of the ‘life’ of an unborn child.
it is a well-known fact that a human fetus is more valuable than a born human being. human fetuses are entitled to rights that no born human has, such as the right to use another human's tissues, organs, and bodily fluids without that other individual's consent. murdering 6 born human beings is certainly justified if it protects the potential of the fetus...however, the minute that fetus passes out of the female, it becomes utterly expendable.

Are adults more important than children? With due respect, you seem only concerned about the adults here.
What children? We're talking about masses of cells that barely even have a fricking brain stem, not children.

Piss a golf ball (The comparitive sizes should be right. If not, try a baseball or something.) then tell us that the mother should go throught the agony of childbirth.

still not enough. pregnancy causes permanent physiological changes in a woman, changes she will retain for the remainder of her life. pissing a golfball would not only be less painful than childbirth, it also would have far less lasting consequences.


I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The whole "pro-life" arguement is just an attempt to punish women for enjoying sex.
agreed. it's secondary goal is to promote the idea that intentionally carrying a pregnancy to term with the aim of foisting the resulting infant off on other people is "taking responsibility," while making the hard and personal choice to prevent the existence of that baby is "selfish."

it is a well-known fact that a human fetus is more valuable than a born human being. human fetuses are entitled to rights that no born human has, such as the right to use another human's tissues, organs, and bodily fluids without that other individual's consent. murdering 6 born human beings is certainly justified if it protects the potential of the fetus...however, the minute that fetus passes out of the female, it becomes utterly expendable.
*sniff* Does anyone else smell sarcasm?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: a fetus is a parasite.

having worked at a clinic that provides counciling and reproductive health services, i have been targetted by anti-choice protesters many times. they stand outside our clinic hurling insults and waving signs with pictures of procedures that haven't been performed in the US in over 20 years. they attack all the people who work in our clinic, even our consultant neonatologist (who is about as far from an "abortion doctor" as you possibly can get). they terrorize women who are coming to the clinic, regardless of WHY they are coming.

the greatest thing i ever saw was when they started shrieking at a middle-aged woman who was coming into the clinic, a woman who was just barely showing pregnant and had her toddler-aged son with her. she endured it for most of the way up the path, and then finally snapped when one of them screamed, "God will send you to hell for what you are doing to your children!"

she spun around, walked straight up to the guy who screamed at her, and screamed right back:

"I'M HERE TO GET MY SON'S PRESCRIPTION FOR HIS ASTHMA MEDICINE. WHERE ARE YOUR CHILDREN?"

Thats hecka awesome. Strike one for prudent people!

from a few mothers i've talked to it would be more like pissing a football

from a few mothers i've talked to it would be more like pissing a football
I was trying to make a comparison between the realtive size of the urethra and the vagina.

sorry

Okay, let's get one thing straight. An unborn foetus is a human being. To deny this is ridiculous. It has the same genetic code that will allow it to develop, bar an early death, into an adult human being.

However, to address the competition, there are four possible viewpoints to take up here:

1). A foetus becomes a human being the moment it becomes independent from its mother. Yes, this has been proposed, and what it was intended to mean was "no longer relying on its mother to provide it with nourishment". On the other hand, you leave a newborn baby in a house on its own and see if it's learned to fend for itself in a few days. By these criteria a child, once born, does not become a human being until it's learned how to fend for itself, which is several years. This is obviously ridiculous, as toddlers are undeniably human beings.

2). A foetus becomes a human being the moment it leaves its mother's uterus. Yes, this has actually been seriously proposed. Closely related to the above, it is also patently nonsense - if nothing else, this links the definition of what it is to be a human to the status of current medical technology, which is absurdly flippant and arbitrary.

3). A foetus becomes a human being at some point during pregnancy. St. Thomas Aquinas tried to define a point (40 days for male children, 80 for female, if I remember correctly - don't quote me on those figures, though) at which "ensoulment" occurred. Much the same thing is happening today, as anti-abortionists essentially say "You can't abort at week X; by then the foetus can (punch, blink, stretch, whatever)", by which they attempt to use an emotivist argument to convince people that the foetus is already a living human being by analogy to adult human beings.

4). A foetus becomes a human being at the moment of conception, or rather, at the moment of gamete fusion. At this point a genetically unique organism has begun living within its mother. For nine months it behaves parasitically, and continues for at least 16-18 years thereafter (sorry, the joke needed making).

The fact that it is genetically unique and each of its cells carry the new genotype marks it as differentiated from the main comparison of the "a foetus is not a human being" camp, which is a cancer. They claim it to also be a growth of a different genetic code to the mother inside the mother's body, which we don't ascribe "human" status and which we feel it perfectly acceptable to destroy. In the case of cancer, though, the organism's DNA is not altered in any major way, though the tiny alterations there are obviously have massive consequences. For those who would claim those alterations are all that matters, I point to recent evidence that actually veyr few of any organism's cells have completely 100% identical DNA, that minor damage is always happening and being repaired. For this reason, such minor alterations can be disregarded, but since the offspring's DNA varies much, much more from the parent's than that of a cancer, it can be safely classified a new organism.

For these reasons I believe it to be obvious that from the moment of conception a foetus, as a genetically unique individual, is impossible to genuinely, biologically differentiate in any way from itself in the next nine months (this defeats 3 and 2), or within the next several years (defeating 1).

I'm not Christian, and I do not believe "killing in the name of life" is justified. If anything, it is an extreme, terrorist measure which serves only to discredit a cause in the eyes of the populace. Such change as anti-abortionists want must be wrought through the proper channels, or they will only both create more hatred and increase resistance.

(I am, however, supportive of abortion where the mother's life is in danger; no good is done if both should die.)

The purpose of this post is not to give support to any camp; it is merely to clear up the status of the foetus as human or not. I hope I've done my job.

~President Felix Niels