NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been reading the Holy Bible (New International Edition) lately, specifically Matthew.

I have found that in Matthew 6:1-24, Jesus appears to discourage any public expression of religious faith, let alone legislating on it.

Giving to the Needy
“Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.[a]’

14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting
16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven
19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24“No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.
It sounds to me like Christ thinks religion should be an absolutely private thing. His views seem to be even more secularist than mine and I am an atheist! Am I right, wrong, or other? What do you think?

Flame away.

It doesn't matter what Jesus said or thought. Jesussaves makes the rules for christians now.

I've been reading the Holy Bible (New International Edition) lately, specifically Matthew.

I have found that in Matthew 6:1-24, Jesus appears to discourage any public expression of religious faith, let alone legislating on it.


It sounds to me like Christ thinks religion should be an absolutely private thing. His views seem to be even more secularist than mine and I am an atheist! Am I right, wrong, or other? What do you think?

Flame away.
I have seen a lot of what you say in his teachings as well basicaly "be what you believe and shutup about it" lol but I am sure there are other parts of the bible that argue with it (suprize ... the bible contradicting itself ... thats a first) [/sarcasm]

Very good. No flaming required.

For more fun see Skeptic's Annotated (holy book) (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/)

just wait for one of three people: Servus Dei - our crazy Vatican I Catholic, VoteEarly - a big fan of Fred Phelps, or, Jesussaves - just a crazy christian.

They'll give ya the true meaning of that there holy bible.

I'm sure you unbelievers have cracked the code of the Bible! Brilliant!

What a bunch of geniuses! Blew St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine right out of the water! Quick, someone call CNN! These men have proved Christianity kaput!

You get the point, yet?

I'm sure you unbelievers have cracked the code of the Bible! Brilliant!

What a bunch of geniuses! Blew St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine right out of the water! Quick, someone call CNN! These men have proved Christianity kaput!

You get the point, yet?

you know Aquinas indulged in the fatal sin of gluttony. . .ohh too bad. Off to hell for him. Augustine was a little wrapped up in the notion of his own holy brilliance for me.

I'm sure you unbelievers have cracked the code of the Bible! Brilliant!

What a bunch of geniuses! Blew St Thomas Aquinas and St Augustine right out of the water! Quick, someone call CNN! These men have proved Christianity kaput!

You get the point, yet?
You've been convinced christianity's a con job? Is that the point?

It doesn't matter what Jesus said or thought. Jesussaves makes the rules for christians now.

So true. oh and VoteEarly.

I believe Christ is speaking against doing acts of faith JUST so that you would get reward/accolade from your fellow man.

If Jesus himself were advocating complete hiding of one's faith, then he lived his life as a lie - entering the Temple, overturning money tables? Preaching to 5 thousand people on the wide open beach? Parading through the towns and cities, healing the sick? All of this in wide open view.

Rather, He says that those who DO good (Christians, and anyone else in the world) should be doing it for the sake of GOOD, not in expectation of notice and/or reward.

Therefore.. "fast in secret", and when tithing, "don't let your right hand know what the left does", et. al.

Jesus was a schizophrenic with acute megalomania, so what he thinks isn't particuarly relevant.

Only in biblical times could such a nutter have built such a following. These days, he'd be wrapped in a strait-jacket and bundled off for electric-shock therapy (which is what seems to happen to those who claim to be the 2nd coming).

I've been reading the Holy Bible (New International Edition) lately, specifically Matthew.

I have found that in Matthew 6:1-24, Jesus appears to discourage any public expression of religious faith, let alone legislating on it.


It sounds to me like Christ thinks religion should be an absolutely private thing. His views seem to be even more secularist than mine and I am an atheist! Am I right, wrong, or other? What do you think?

Flame away.

Jesus was speaking about your motives. If you give to the poor and announce it with trumpets, then you already got your reward so you shouldnt expect any reward from heaven (your reward is the admiration of the people who said "wow, look at how much he gave"). If you fast and declare that you are fasting and gnash your teeth and say "oh how hard it is to fast". Then again, you already got your reward (the admiration of the people), so you shouldnt expect any reward in heaven. So, in other words, if your motives for doing good things is so that people will see you doing them, then you arent really serving God by doing those things, you are serving yourself.

That has absolutely nothing to do with religion being an intensely private thing. It has to do with the intentions for why you do things.

What he said, too ^^

ah, OK. I understand better now.

For what it's worth, I find myself duly impressed with your desire to learn (even about something that is not directly related to your chosen faith).

The fact that you do not simply write the Bible (or the words of Jesus, specifically) off as "outdated" or "impractical" speaks volumes for your maturity.

Continue to validate everything using logic and due process, and you will find the answers you seek.

I've been reading the Holy Bible (New International Edition) lately, specifically Matthew.

I have found that in Matthew 6:1-24, Jesus appears to discourage any public expression of religious faith, let alone legislating on it.


It sounds to me like Christ thinks religion should be an absolutely private thing. His views seem to be even more secularist than mine and I am an atheist! Am I right, wrong, or other? What do you think?

Flame away.
It was a common practice of the religious leaders of the time to show off. When I say religious leaders, I mean they were very similar to the Pope before Martin Luther showed up...corrupt, greedy, and having little to do with the actual religion. They would pray for a long time very publicly and very dramatically. "OH LORD! BLESS THESE PEOPLE! OH LORD, GRANT ME WISDOM!" They weren't praying to God, they were praying to the people. Similarly, they would dump large quantities of money in the collection box at the synagogue. The money, of course, came right back to them, and anyways, they had money to spare, so they did it to show off, Look how righteous we are, look how Godly we are!
The passages in Matthew are warning against doing things like that. You don't have to pray in a closet, but you should pray like you're in a closet. Be an example to others by praying to God for the sake of praying to God, not by praying so others will see you. Don't show off with God...God isn't yours to show off. You should be an example, you shouldn't hide your Christianity, you should reach others. But always remember that prayer is talking to God, not other people.

Jesus was a schizophrenic with acute megalomania, so what he thinks isn't particuarly relevant.

Only in biblical times could such a nutter have built such a following. These days, he'd be wrapped in a strait-jacket and bundled off for electric-shock therapy (which is what seems to happen to those who claim to be the 2nd coming).

You raise one good point, and one which is ignorant to the point of being offensive - even to a non-Christian such as myself.

To take the latter first. What is your source for this claim? I'm guessing it's not anything that biblical scholars or historians have written, but rather just a knee-jerk reaction to being annoyed by holier-than-thou Christians. The fact of the matter is that in three of the four Gospels, Jesus never claims to be the Son of God, or God incarnate. Only in the Gospel of John does Jesus make such a claim, and that was the last Gospel written, decades after Jesus died. I suggest you read something about the gnostic Gospels. like Elaine Pagel's book on the Gospel of Thomas. By the way, the same argument could be made about any of the world's great religious leaders. The Buddha never claimed to be a god, but how would you feel if some bald guy in a robe came up to you and said, 'Hi, by the way, I'm the fully enlightened one', as the Buddha did when he greeted the five ascetics in the Deer Park after his Enlightenment.

The other point is more interesting. Would we believe ANYONE who claimed to possess profound divine wisdom? Is the Dalai Lama a 'nutter' because he, and millions of other people, believes himself to be a reincarnation of the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara? There are (at least) two possibilities: either the divine exists and can be experienced, or it doesn't and there is something off about the people who believe that they have experienced it. However, assuming that they are crazy because they've had an experience that you can't explain is to assume that your tiny sliver of experience of the world has given YOU the 'right' and ultimate answer.

The Biblical passages that you have raised have been answered more than adequately thus far; Jesus was speaking about the motivation when he taught about praying in secret rather than in public etc.
Moreover, there are numerous Biblical passages that state that it is wrong to deny one's Christian faith: when Peter denied Jesus after his arrest, he was sinning; Jesus said 'Deny me and I will deny you' (on the Day of Judgement). In one of the epistles, Paul says 'Always be prepared to give an answer for the hope you hold'. In Acts, the early church were hardly secretive about their actions. And Jesus himself, as has been pointed out, was hardly evasive. Admittedly, he frequently told those he healed 'Don't tell anyone about what has happened', but he didn't preach and heal in secret.

"I am consitently amazed at just how good and noble Jesus was. Someone really should try to emulate him someday...not right now of course. We need all our young men to kill these thrice-dammed terrorists, but later on...Booya! Holy time!"
-------------
"We'll get everyone together, pray in secret, give alms in secret, be generally nice to one another in secret, and god will reward us...in secret."

"...What's with all the cloak and dagger, holy man? Afraid someone's gonna call you a hippy?"
--------------

In truth, I agree with Rhyno D and several others here. Christianity is HARD to interpret with any degree of accuracy; many often interperate key passages loosely for reasons of self-promotion or self-gain. But the essential message still comes through, and that message is worth listening to.

I've been reading the Holy Bible (New International Edition) lately, specifically Matthew.

I have found that in Matthew 6:1-24, Jesus appears to discourage any public expression of religious faith, let alone legislating on it.


It sounds to me like Christ thinks religion should be an absolutely private thing. His views seem to be even more secularist than mine and I am an atheist! Am I right, wrong, or other? What do you think?

Flame away.

I'm pretty sure Jesus' main concern here is that we should not do things to impress others... like praying or giving alms/tithing.

Shouting your prayers, thinking that you "sound" like a big Christian... or publicizing a large donation to, say, a church, trying to show everyone you're a christian... does not impress Him. that's what Jesus was saying.

It was a common practice of the religious leaders of the time to show off. When I say religious leaders, I mean they were very similar to the Pope before Martin Luther showed up...corrupt, greedy, and having little to do with the actual religion. They would pray for a long time very publicly and very dramatically. "OH LORD! BLESS THESE PEOPLE! OH LORD, GRANT ME WISDOM!" They weren't praying to God, they were praying to the people. Similarly, they would dump large quantities of money in the collection box at the synagogue. The money, of course, came right back to them, and anyways, they had money to spare, so they did it to show off, Look how righteous we are, look how Godly we are!
The passages in Matthew are warning against doing things like that. You don't have to pray in a closet, but you should pray like you're in a closet. Be an example to others by praying to God for the sake of praying to God, not by praying so others will see you. Don't show off with God...God isn't yours to show off. You should be an example, you shouldn't hide your Christianity, you should reach others. But always remember that prayer is talking to God, not other people.

This is probably one of the first real, mature defenses of Jesus I have seen in a forum. It's too bad there aren't more people like you. I do have a question though: What about these televangelists or pastors of these enormous congragations? Are they going against Jesus' teachings here?

(Please don't my name seriously. I am not a satanist, nor do I have anything against Christianity. I just thought it would be funny. It's just a joke. :) :D :) :D :) )

It doesn't matter what Jesus said or thought. Jesussaves makes the rules for christians now.

ROFL. Whatever happened to the guy, anyway? :confused:

For what it's worth, I find myself duly impressed with your desire to learn (even about something that is not directly related to your chosen faith).

The fact that you do not simply write the Bible (or the words of Jesus, specifically) off as "outdated" or "impractical" speaks volumes for your maturity.

Continue to validate everything using logic and due process, and you will find the answers you seek.
Thanks very much, that's what I aim to do.

One of my many peeves is to see "secularists" calling the Bible junk, nonsense, stupid, crazy, etc. whatever. They give us all a bad name by making us look anti-religious.

just wait for one of three people: Servus Dei - our crazy Vatican I Catholic, VoteEarly - a big fan of Fred Phelps, or, Jesussaves - just a crazy christian.

They'll give ya the true meaning of that there holy bible.
You know, I haven't seen them post here for quite a while. Are all our maniacs gone? What we need now is for Fat Smelly Bastards to return.

I believe Christ is speaking against doing acts of faith JUST so that you would get reward/accolade from your fellow man.

If Jesus himself were advocating complete hiding of one's faith, then he lived his life as a lie - entering the Temple, overturning money tables? Preaching to 5 thousand people on the wide open beach? Parading through the towns and cities, healing the sick? All of this in wide open view.

Rather, He says that those who DO good (Christians, and anyone else in the world) should be doing it for the sake of GOOD, not in expectation of notice and/or reward.

Therefore.. "fast in secret", and when tithing, "don't let your right hand know what the left does", et. al.

thankyou for being sane and sensible :) i would have said the same thing myself except you got there first...

You know, I haven't seen them post here for quite a while. Are all our maniacs gone? What we need now is for Fat Smelly Bastards to return.
VoteEarly was deated, and Jesussaves warned off (as a puppet). Dunno about Servus Dei.

What about these televangelists or pastors of these enormous congragations? Are they going against Jesus' teachings here?


We don't get televangelists over here, but if their only motivation is to convert more people to Christianity, they are obeying the Biblical call to mission- if they are doing it to serve God, then it's all well and good.
However, if they spend the whole time talking abou how holy they are and trying to impress people, then they are going against the teachings- they're doing it for their own benefit.