NationStates Jolt Archive

I posted this in another thread as a side note, but the more I think about it the more I really am baffled, so maybe somebody can clear this up for me.

In Pope John Paul II's newly published book, "Memory and Identity," the Pope has this to say about efforts to "pressure" the European parlament to accept gay marriage:

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."

Can somebody please explain to me how human rights can be pitted AGAINST man? How could the protection of human rights possibly HARM families?

The definition of human rights, according to my encyclopedia, is "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, comprised of the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression within certain guidelines, and equality before the law."

I don't understand how human rights could be pitted against human beings...how do you pit somebody's own rights against them? Is it possible to pit my right to vote against me? or to use my right to freedom of speech to harm me? or is the Pope saying that other people might be harmed by granting me human rights? Woudn't that be like claiming slave owners were harmed by granting slaves human rights? It's true, the slave owners were pitted against the human rights of the slaves, but that's called "equality." I don't see why anybody would object to that. If my human rights interfere with what somebody else was doing, then that means that person was doing something that violates human rights, right?

I'm so confused.

buy giving gays marriage apparently

Well he also basically said that there was a 'new form of totalitarianism' around where govenments passed pro-abortion or gay marriage legislature.

Yeah, that's totalitarianism...

Well he also basically said that there was a 'new form of totalitarianism' around where govenments passed pro-abortion or gay marriage legislature.

Yeah, that's totalitarianism...
it must be totalitarianism when the majority of any given population supports the right to abortion or gay marriage, and the government is bound to recognize the will of the people. because allowing the people to hold progressive views and to shape their nation accordingly is ALWAYS a halkmark of a totalitarian state.

sort of like how Dick Cheney was all about letting the states decide on gay marriage, until some states started deciding to allow it...then it became a matter of "activist judges" and the federal government was needed to step up. :P

Can somebody please explain to me how human rights can be pitted AGAINST man? How could the protection of human rights possibly HARM families?

The Pope probably believes that some human rights when taken beyond a certain point are incompatible with the will of God - and that pleasing God is more important for mankind in the long run than improving existence right now.

I would imagine it's the same old, same old. Accepting gay marriage = fewer children being born = fewer potential Christians.

Plus, according to church doctrine, it is a sin... then again, what isn't at one time or other?

It's not his fault. You know how it is; you get old, you can't remember where you leave your car keys, you start declaring homosexuals to be the very spawn of Satan himself, you start thinking you know what God wants... it's a bit tragic, really. Still, at least he doesn't need to resort to meals on wheels yet.

The Pope probably believes that some human rights when taken beyond a certain point are incompatible with the will of God - and that pleasing God is more important for mankind in the long run than improving existence right now.
so God doesn't want His People to have human rights?

you know, we have words for governmental leaders who don't want their people to have human rights. they aren't very nice words. why are people worshipping a being that can be described with one of those words?

Don't worry, Bottle. The Pope is rather confused himself, so don't let it get to you. ;)

so God doesn't want His People to have human rights?

you know, we have words for governmental leaders who don't want their people to have human rights. they aren't very nice words. why are people worshipping a being that can be described with one of those words?

Because he promises them the grass will be greener after the next hill probably;)

It's not his fault. You know how it is; you get old, you can't remember where you leave your car keys, you start declaring homosexuals to be the very spawn of Satan himself, you start thinking you know what God wants... it's a bit tragic, really. Still, at least he doesn't need to resort to meals on wheels yet.

VERY mature response, especially given that his stance on homosexuality has never changed.

The Pope wants to eat your baby. 'Tis a fact ... I looked it up.

sure hes gonna be dead soon anyway, then we wont have to listen to him

I would imagine it's the same old, same old. Accepting gay marriage = fewer children being born = fewer potential Christians.

i think that's an example of poor forsight on his part (imagine that). acceptance of gay marriage might slightly reduce the number of gay people forcing themselves to behave like straight people, and therefore might slightly reduce birth rates, but gay marriage will INCREASE the number of children being adopted, and medical technology is reaching a point where gay couples will be able to produce biological children to boot. now, if the Catholics were to be one of the first major religious groups to stand up and put their full support behind gay marriage, then all those gay people who feel cast out of their original religions will be much more likely to turn to Catholicism because the Catholic God is prepared to welcome them. they would, therefore, be more likely to rear their children Catholic!

the Pope could tap into a HUGE market by accepting homosexuals.

so God doesn't want His People to have human rights?

you know, we have words for governmental leaders who don't want their people to have human rights. they aren't very nice words. why are people worshipping a being that can be described with one of those words?


As I recall from what I read in the Old Testament, it was a sort of money with menaces agreement. He came own from heaven, and sort of said 'Worship me, or I'll not only kill you, I'll keep being nasty to you afterwards as well. For eternity.'.

Did you know the Pope is Catholic? Zany!

Don't worry, Bottle. The Pope is rather confused himself, so don't let it get to you. ;)
the problem is, as an agnostic, i must admit that i am unable to prove the Pope ISN'T speaking directly to God. if He is, then God appears to be something like a cosmic Pol Pot, and we need to begin mounting a defense (or possibly even a massive offensive) against this being before it decides to take our shores by force. if the Pope is right, then God has done precisely that in the past (floods, rain of sulfer, plagues, etc). we now have technological abilities to save at least some of the lives God may try to crush, so if God really is the way the Pope describes then we need to begin preparing emergency procedures as soon as possible.

Did you know the Pope is Catholic? Zany!
Funny, I always thought he was Wiccan or summat like that.

the problem is, as an agnostic, i must admit that i am unable to prove the Pope ISN'T speaking directly to God. if He is, then God appears to be something like a cosmic Pol Pot, and we need to begin mounting a defense (or possibly even a massive offensive) against this being before it decides to take our shores by force. if the Pope is right, then God has done precisely that in the past (floods, rain of sulfer, plagues, etc). we now have technological abilities to save at least some of the lives God may try to crush, so if God really is the way the Pope describes then we need to begin preparing emergency procedures as soon as possible.
Huh. To me, that sounds a wee bit futile...
If God really wanted to wipe everybody but a few people out, I somehow doubt we could stop him.

Funny, I always thought he was Wiccan or summat like that.


I know! But I read the other day that he's Catholic! I'll have to find a source on that one, though, cuz I may have just been reading propoganda.

Funny, I always thought he was Wiccan or summat like that.


Kabbalah, or whatever it is :D

the problem is, as an agnostic, i must admit that i am unable to prove the Pope ISN'T speaking directly to God. if He is, then God appears to be something like a cosmic Pol Pot, and we need to begin mounting a defense (or possibly even a massive offensive) against this being before it decides to take our shores by force. if the Pope is right, then God has done precisely that in the past (floods, rain of sulfer, plagues, etc). we now have technological abilities to save at least some of the lives God may try to crush, so if God really is the way the Pope describes then we need to begin preparing emergency procedures as soon as possible.


Are you trying to convince us tyhat God has WMDs? That we should attempt some form of regime change in heaven? Is the bible actually a dirty dossier? Have you sexed-up the Old Testament to fool the public into supporting you?

Are you trying to convince us tyhat God has WMDs? That we should attempt some form of regime change in heaven? Is the bible actually a dirty dossier? Have you sexed-up the Old Testament to fool the public into supporting you?
careful now, you dont want to say "sexed up" or Blair will set Hutton on you, and then your director general will have to resign

We are in the end times, "Such as was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed to the Earth."

The days of Lot were famous for one thing and one thing alone, homosexuality, sodomites, indeed the day that Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens and destroyed the entire doomed city.


If we tolerate homosexual evil in our midst, God will not hesitate to kill us along with them, when more fire and brimstone rain down from the heavens.

Are you trying to convince us tyhat God has WMDs? That we should attempt some form of regime change in heaven? Is the bible actually a dirty dossier? Have you sexed-up the Old Testament to fool the public into supporting you?

Who knows.. perhaps Satan was opposing God because he saw him as an evil dictator and wanted to free us ;) This is assuming your particular flavour of Christianity says the devil exists, does not work for God but is brooding plots to overthrow him etc. - since people can't seem to agree on this.

Huh. To me, that sounds a wee bit futile...
If God really wanted to wipe everybody but a few people out, I somehow doubt we could stop him.
who knows? sure, the Bible makes it clear that God could smack around the ancient Egyptians and Romans and stuff, but we've come a long way. maybe we will at least be able to save some lives, even if we can't actually stop or damage God Himself.

We are in the end times, "Such as was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed to the Earth."

The days of Lot were famous for one thing and one thing alone, homosexuality, sodomites, indeed the day that Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens and destroyed the entire doomed city.

...and then Lot celebrated by getting wasted and having sex with his daughters, which God didn't mind.


If we tolerate homosexual evil in our midst, God will not hesitate to kill us along with them, when more fire and brimstone rain down from the heavens.
...so to avert that horrible outcome, we should offer all our virign daughters up to be raped by vicious mobs. maybe if we let the homosexual men rape our virgin daughters they will see the light, settle down in nice heterosexual marriages, make some children, and start having sex with those children the way God really wants them too.

sorry, it's just too easy, VE.

We are in the end times, "Such as was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed to the Earth."

The days of Lot were famous for one thing and one thing alone, homosexuality, sodomites, indeed the day that Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone rained down from the heavens and destroyed the entire doomed city.


If we tolerate homosexual evil in our midst, God will not hesitate to kill us along with them, when more fire and brimstone rain down from the heavens.

But this is the logic of Stalin. Surely God must be stopped, no matter the cost.

We are in the end times, "Such as was in the days of Lot, so shall it be when the Son of Man is revealed to the Earth."


They've been saying that for 1,000 years. Ah well ... say it enough and eventually you may be right. I doubt it, though, but it is funny watching you try to pretend you know the will of Allah.

who knows? sure, the Bible makes it clear that God could smack around the ancient Egyptians and Romans and stuff, but we've come a long way. maybe we will at least be able to save some lives, even if we can't actually stop or damage God Himself.
For some odd reason, this is starting to sound like Neon Genesis Evangelion to me.
:p

They've been saying that for 1,000 years. Ah well ... say it enough and eventually you may be right.

a sudden image presents itself:

a fellow in a robe, saying, "Okay, it's the end of times right....NOW! Okay, wait, no, hang on, right....NOW! NOW! Erm, hold on, wait for it...NOW! Um, well, really i was saying that it would START to start just then, but it's REALLY going to start starting right...NOW! I mean, NOW! Wait, hang on a second..."


I doubt it, though, but it is funny watching you try to pretend you know the will of Allah.
Vishnu is equally amused.

For some odd reason, this is starting to sound like Neon Genesis Evangelion to me.
:p
hmm, i like the cut of your jib. perhaps some sort of massive machine weapons of some kind ("mechas," if you will) would be effective against God and His legions...

Right, I've cracked it. We convince the public that God has these weapons of Mass Destruction, such as the lethal Flood Bomb and the terrifying Rains of Sulpher, and then we move in in force with a 'Coalition of the Willing' (Pagans, Atheists, Buddists and Heretics). Then, we install Lucifer as interim Prime Minister until a free and democratic election can be arranged, with all those who have been oppressed and exiled by God present and free to take part. Like Hitler, Stalin, homosexuals, and Kenny from South Park.

Right, I've cracked it. We convince the public that God has these weapons of Mass Destruction, such as the lethal Flood Bomb and the terrifying Rains of Sulpher, and then we move in in force with a 'Coalition of the Willing' (Pagans, Atheists, Buddists and Heretics). Then, we install Lucifer as interim Prime Minister until a free and democratic election can be arranged, with all those who have been oppressed and exiled by God present and free to take part. Like Hitler, Stalin, homosexuals, and Kenny from South Park.
beats the hell out of the Pope's idea! i'm with ya!

God's ethnic cleansing of the Egyptians and the Sodomites cannot go unpunished!! I demand a full international eccumenical tribunal into his human rights violations! Down with God!

hmm, i like the cut of your jib. perhaps some sort of massive machine weapons of some kind ("mechas," if you will) would be effective against God and His legions...
Now we need a vaguely sinister title for our UN-backed shadow organization.

And while we're at it, some actual mechas to pilot might help us in our plot to use them...

...and then Lot celebrated by getting wasted and having sex with his daughters, which God didn't mind.


...so to avert that horrible outcome, we should offer all our virign daughters up to be raped by vicious mobs. maybe if we let the homosexual men rape our virgin daughters they will see the light, settle down in nice heterosexual marriages, make some children, and start having sex with those children the way God really wants them too.

sorry, it's just too easy, VE.

His whore daughters got him drunk and raped him, hardly him having sex with his daughters.

You mean the pope stopped confusing you at some point? Cause he's pretty much a continuous source of confusion for me, there's no real interim where he makes sense.

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.

His whore daughters got him drunk and raped him, hardly him having sex with his daughters.

Um.... Yes, it is him having sex with his daughters. Even if they raped him, he had sex with his daughters. Which is still a-ok with God. Besides, God should at the very least be pissed off that Lot indulged in Gluttony with wine. It's a deady sin.

Now we need a vaguely sinister title for our UN-backed shadow organization.

And while we're at it, some actual mechas to pilot might help us in our plot to use them...

SPECTRE, an oldie but a goldie.
I dunno where to find the mechas though. Alaska?

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.
do you think that a gay person would choose to subject themselves to the discrimination and bigotry that they get?

of course not

i only hope that one if not several of your children are gay, then you will understand

do you think that a gay person would choose to subject themselves to the discrimination and bigotry that they get?

of course not

i only hope that one if not several of your children are gay, then you will understand


If I had a gay son, I'd say one word, "Bye" and then point to the door. I think we all understand that "bye" means, "Get out and don't come back until you're normal and hath repented and realized your election."

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.

Bullshit, dude. Homosexuality isn't a matter of choice, and unless you're gay yourself you can't tell us otherwise. Which would make you a sinner and destroy your own position. Give up on the fundamentalist nhonsense. What harm are they doing to you? It's not like they've made homosexual marriage COMPULSORY, which would be unacceptable.

If I had a gay son, I'd say one word, "Bye" and then point to the door. I think we all understand that "bye" means, "Get out and don't come back until you're normal and hath repented and realized your election."
youd have to get rid of your wife as well

after all, homosexuality stems from things that go on inside the womb

and why do you think a person would choose to subject themselves to what the average gay person goes through?

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.


So I chose my orientation, eh? I'm a masochist as well? Please, consider yourself for a second. Animals also choose homosexuality?
I'm aware that you've already been refuted, but never mind.

And VoteEarly, glad to see you have a good sense of Christian compassion and forgiveness.

SPECTRE, an oldie but a goldie.
I dunno where to find the mechas though. Alaska?
No way. This evil being will fall from the sky in Antartica and trigger a horrible catastrophe that wipes out much of the human race. We'll just stuff it into an armored shell and give it a soul, and learn to control it with our minds.

It's as simple as that!

If I had a gay son, I'd say one word, "Bye" and then point to the door. I think we all understand that "bye" means, "Get out and don't come back until you're normal and hath repented and realized your election."

Why? Have you some form of issues you've not dealt with here? Are you trying to hide something from yourself? When you were masturbating to the men's 1500 metres finals, were you really beating off to the chicks? Are you certain? Have you been hanging out in those gay bars just to observe the sinfullness?

youd have to get rid of your wife as well

after all, homosexuality stems from things that go on inside the womb

and why do you think a person would choose to subject themselves to what the average gay person goes through?


Because God willed it! God is the author of everything, good and evil, you think for one second that man can do good without God? Do you think for one second man can do evil without God? You are what God wills you to be, and if He wills you to be an object of His undying, eternal hatred, so be it.

Because God willed it! God is the author of everything, good and evil, you think for one second that man can do good without God? Do you think for one second man can do evil without God? You are what God wills you to be, and if He wills you to be an object of His undying, eternal hatred, so be it.
so "god" wants people to be gay?

he makes them gay?

so why is it a sin if he has made them gay?

surely that means he has chosen them out specifically, they must get special treatment

Why? Have you some form of issues you've not dealt with here? Are you trying to hide something from yourself? When you were masturbating to the men's 1500 metres finals, were you really beating off to the chicks? Are you certain? Have you been hanging out in those gay bars just to observe the sinfullness?


This is the most common tactic sodomites use, I am not gay, I never was gay, I'm heterosexual. I am not some repressed queer, so get off it. Get off it, that line of arguing is crap, invented by queer psychiatrists in their sodomite universities.

No way. This evil being will fall from the sky in Antartica and trigger a horrible catastrophe that wipes out much of the human race. We'll just stuff it into an armored shell and give it a soul, and learn to control it with our minds.

It's as simple as that!
Nah, we'd just buy the mecha from the Japanese, you know they've got a few stashed somewhere.

so "god" wants people to be gay?

he makes them gay?

so why is it a sin if he has made them gay?

surely that means he has chosen them out specifically, they must get special treatment


God makes people sinners specifically so they can be objects of His hatred! Don't you get it yet?

Don't you get it? God is the ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGN of the entire universe. And as such, He does as He wants!

God makes people sinners specifically so they can be objects of His hatred! Don't you get it yet?

Don't you get it? God is the ABSOLUTE SOVEREIGN of the entire universe. And as such, He does as He wants!
i thought "god" was all forgiving, a just god, who cared for his people

why does he condemn people before they are born without giving them the chance to redeem themselves?

obviously "god" isnt as caring as some people like to make out

he must be pretty evil to condemn people before theyve had the chance to do anything

No way. This evil being will fall from the sky in Antartica and trigger a horrible catastrophe that wipes out much of the human race. We'll just stuff it into an armored shell and give it a soul, and learn to control it with our minds.

It's as simple as that!

oh. Obviously.

i thought "god" was all forgiving, a just god, who cared for his people

why does he condemn people before they are born without giving them the chance to redeem themselves?

obviously "god" isnt as caring as some people like to make out

he must be pretty evil to condemn people before theyve had the chance to do anything


Malachi 1:2-3

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.



Twin brothers in the womb, one predestinated for God's eternal love, Jacob. The other predestinated for God's eternal hatred, Esau. For the sole reason it pleased God to love on and hate the other. Predestination of all things!

It pains the reprobate to realize that God hates them, so they peddle the lies that Jesus Christ died for all men, and that God loves everybody.

I tell you this though now, if you've never been to a Calvinist sermon, you've never heard the Gospel preached, and you can't even dare to begin to call yourself a Christian unless you accept the 5 Points of Calvinism.

Malachi 1:2-3

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.



Twin brothers in the womb, one predestinated for God's eternal love, Jacob. The other predestinated for God's eternal hatred, Esau. For the sole reason it pleased God to love on and hate the other. Predestination of all things!

It pains the reprobate to realize that God hates them, so they peddle the lies that Jesus Christ died for all men, and that God loves everybody.

so Jesus didnt die for mans sins?

theres this book right, it says he did

now...whats it called...you have a fondness for quoting from it....

oh yes! the bible.

thats the one

yes, the bible

oh. Obviously.
Yeah, you haven't been watching enough NGE. This stuff should come to mind naturally.
:p

I tell you this though now, if you've never been to a Calvinist sermon, you've never heard the Gospel preached, and you can't even dare to begin to call yourself a Christian unless you accept the 5 Points of Calvinism.
Ah, you mean the God is a complete and utter fucking asshole school of thought.

fuckin pope.....

so Jesus didnt die for mans sins?

theres this book right, it says he did

now...whats it called...you have a fondness for quoting from it....

oh yes! the bible.

thats the one

yes, the bible


"I am the good shepherd, and I know my sheep, and I lay down my life for my sheep." This quote, by Christ, is often translated "Elect" in the place of the second "sheep".

It is clear Christ did die for man's sins, but not all men, only the Elect. He died for the sheep, His sheep. Jesus Christ did not die for a single goat.

Yeah, you haven't been watching enough NGE. This stuff should come to mind naturally.
:p

I've seen a very small amount of it.... death and rebirth, that's it.

Which was cool, especially with the words that appeared up on the screen. for about a milisecond at a time.

"City attack!"
"Counterstrike!"
"Kill your family!"
(What the...?)
"Assault!"
"Obligatory action scene!"

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

"I am the good shepherd, and I know my sheep, and I lay down my life for my sheep." This quote, by Christ, is often translated "Elect" in the place of the second "sheep".

It is clear Christ did die for man's sins, but not all men, only the Elect. He died for the sheep, His sheep. Jesus Christ did not die for a single goat.
*gets out bible*


So Jesus said again, "I am telling you the truth: I am the gate for the sheep. All others who came before me are robbers and theives, but the gate did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever goes by me shall be saved; they will come in and go out and find the pasture."

those are the words of Jesus himself - anyone, sinners or no, who accepts him will go to heaven.

The Pope truly believes that he cannot endorse gay marriage and allow for homosexual activity because of Scripture and Tradition. Both the Old Testament and the New (St. Paul), condemn homosexuality. I am a steadfast Catholic, but I disagree with the Church's application of certain traditions and I support gay marriage and equal rights for all. However, I can assure you that the Pope does not have malicious intentions. He truly believes that, as the Vicar of Christ, he must protect tradition and the witness of the Church through the centuries. However, despite serious mistakes committed by the Church (it is an institution of human individuals), I believe that the core message of the Catholic Church is the transcendent Love of an all-merciful God. Whether you believe in God or not, mischaracterizations of the Church are unjust and ignorant. Christianity speaks to a call that every person experiences in his or her life, a call to Hope, Justice, Truth, and the fulfillment of the restless human spirit.

*gets out bible*



those are the words of Jesus himself - anyone, sinners or no, who accepts him will go to heaven.



Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



Only the ELECT!

Limited Atonement! He only came and died for the Elect! Elect! Elect! Elect! Elect!

Not a single goat, not a single reprobate, only for the Elect's sake!

"I am the good shepherd, and I know my sheep, and I lay down my life for my sheep." This quote, by Christ, is often translated "Elect" in the place of the second "sheep".

It is clear Christ did die for man's sins, but not all men, only the Elect. He died for the sheep, His sheep. Jesus Christ did not die for a single goat.

There is no such thing as an "elite elect." Christ died once for all men, once for all sins, once for all time. Free will dictates this. Free will also dictates that un-Godlike hatred of sinners will cause them to exercise their free will and not choose God.

But, we do have to be clear, that God hates sin. Therefore, anything that God says is a sin, is also a negative exercise of the free will that is given. God does not hate people who perpetrate sin. I perpetrate sin. He sent His only Son to die for us. I would not send my kids out to be tortured for any of you, but He did, and Jesus agreed.

I am not gay, I never was gay, I'm heterosexual. I am not some repressed queer, so get off it.
Mmm, I love the smell of denial in the morning.

VoteEarly: funny, because my bible says nothing like that for Matthew 24:21-24

*gets out bible*



those are the words of Jesus himself - anyone, sinners or no, who accepts him will go to heaven.


So Jesus said again, "I am telling you the truth: I am the gate for the sheep. All others who came before me are robbers and theives, but the gate did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever goes by me shall be saved; they will come in and go out and find the pasture."


Sheep= Elect

All others= Reprobate

Only the sheep can come unto God, don't you see that? I think you do see it, and it scares the living daylights out of you, because you realize you have no election, you have no moral compass, you realize, that sadly for you, you're doomed...

You're a reprobate and you can't deal with it, so you make silly little ideas that Christ came and died for all men, (If this was true, that he died for all men, then you must believe his death was meaningless and in vain, for clearly many are sinners and have no moral compass, so ineffectual was his death)

But I believe he came and died for some men, the Elect, and they are going to be exalted into heaven for they are truly God's people!

So Jesus said again, "I am telling you the truth: I am the gate for the sheep. All others who came before me are robbers and theives, but the gate did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever goes by me shall be saved; they will come in and go out and find the pasture."


Sheep= Elect

All others= Reprobate


i like the way you replace words when they dont exist

classy, really makes your argument stand up

heres news for you.

it says sheep, it doesnt say elect

VoteEarly: funny, because my bible says nothing like that for Matthew 24:21-24

Then you must have a bible written by a team of sodomite theologists who make up translations.

Here is the link to a very credible translation. You lose.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2024:21-24;&version=9;

Matthew 24:21-24

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Sorry, VE. I foolishly thought you were being serious. I'm so bad at picking out the spoofs...

why am i quoting bible verses at him?

im an atheist...

someone who actually cares what the bible says should carry on

So Jesus said again, "I am telling you the truth: I am the gate for the sheep. All others who came before me are robbers and theives, but the gate did not listen to them. I am the gate. Whoever goes by me shall be saved; they will come in and go out and find the pasture."


Sheep= Elect

All others= Reprobate

Only the sheep can come unto God, don't you see that? I think you do see it, and it scares the living daylights out of you, because you realize you have no election, you have no moral compass, you realize, that sadly for you, you're doomed...


What you're really doing here is taking a passage of Scripture and concentrating all your effort to make it say what you want it to say. It could also mean that people who go through that gate have made a choice to serve Jesus.

But you're right, if there was such a thing as election, I'd be doomed. I'm a sinner among sinners just like Paul. I've seen, said and done things that no-one should be proud of. The only hope I hold unto is that Jesus died for me.

What you're really doing here is taking a passage of Scripture and concentrating all your effort to make it say what you want it to say. It could also mean that people who go through that gate have made a choice to serve Jesus.

But you're right, if there was such a thing as election, I'd be doomed. I'm a sinner among sinners just like Paul. I've seen, said and done things that no-one should be proud of. The only hope I hold unto is that Jesus died for me.



No man is without sin, but the Elect have the chance to repent, indeed they will repent, it is predestinated.

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.

we are all sinners by choice

So if everything's predestined, what's the point? Why would God create a planet full of people just to script each and every thing they do? Why would he make people he hates? Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. That way of thinking just makes him seem cruel and juvenile, creating people he hates just for the fun of destroying them in the most horrible ways he can think of. It's like a schoolboy burning ants with a magnifying glass.

Thankfully, I'm atheist, so all confusion is gone for me.

Another case for Election and the Total depravity of man (man can do nothing to save himself)

Mark 10:26-27

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

all that means is that a man cannot save himself, only by embracing god

doesnt say anything else

all that means is that a man cannot save himself, only by embracing god

doesnt say anything else

No, man can do NOTHING to save himself, only if God draws you unto him, will you be saved.

For the love of God enough of the rampant Calvinism, predestination is heresy. If you really stop and think about it Calvin and Luther should only be seen as sucessful heretics, nothing more. In the good old days they would have been found to have been in error and duly cleansed of thier heresy by fire. Please consider that Holy Mother Church, by way of the Pope, has forgiven you and welcomes you back to the true, aposotlistic church of Rome.

I posted this in another thread as a side note, but the more I think about it the more I really am baffled, so maybe somebody can clear this up for me.

In Pope John Paul II's newly published book, "Memory and Identity," the Pope has this to say about efforts to "pressure" the European parlament to accept gay marriage:

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."

Can somebody please explain to me how human rights can be pitted AGAINST man? How could the protection of human rights possibly HARM families?

The definition of human rights, according to my encyclopedia, is "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, comprised of the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression within certain guidelines, and equality before the law."

I don't understand how human rights could be pitted against human beings...how do you pit somebody's own rights against them? Is it possible to pit my right to vote against me? or to use my right to freedom of speech to harm me? or is the Pope saying that other people might be harmed by granting me human rights? Woudn't that be like claiming slave owners were harmed by granting slaves human rights? It's true, the slave owners were pitted against the human rights of the slaves, but that's called "equality." I don't see why anybody would object to that. If my human rights interfere with what somebody else was doing, then that means that person was doing something that violates human rights, right?

I'm so confused.


The pope confuses me too!!! I know I'm straight, but I just find him so attractive!!!

For the love of God enough of the rampant Calvinism, predestination is heresy. If you really stop and think about it Calvin and Luther should only be seen as sucessful heretics, nothing more. In the good old days they would have been found to have been in error and duly cleansed of thier heresy by fire. Please consider that Holy Mother Church, by way of the Pope, has forgiven you and welcomes you back to the true, aposotlistic church of Rome.

I want nothing to do with your satanic Catholic church which is leading their congregations straight into hell, with the pope at the front of the line of doomed.

Yes, the popes for the most part, are in hell, false prophets and false messiahs alike. They dared make their chairs wide enough for two people, claiming Christ sat by their side and made their judgement perfect and flawless. The false doctrine that a pope can make no mistake! Bah! The Catholic church is the blind leading the blind.


Calvinism is the only true way unto God, and the local church is the only one Jesus sanctioned, he never commanded Peter, "Found a religion which will someday have papal palaces and vaults of gold, all in my name."

No, man can do NOTHING to save himself, only if God draws you unto him, will you be saved.
If God has predestined this elect to exist, why was it necessary for Christ to die for them? I mean, if God had already decided they were an elect that were going to repent/come to God/whatever, without them consciously choosing to do so, surely it was a bit of a waste of time for that whole crucifixion lark that was supposedly about saving sinners.

Another case for Election and the Total depravity of man (man can do nothing to save himself)

Mark 10:26-27

And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Oh, VoteEarly, you're a Calvinist! That explains why you are such a fucking prick!

Unconditional Election, the second premise of Calvinism, is pure rot:

Calvinists believe God has chosen only certain individuals to be saved, based entirely on His sovereignty. Since mankind is incapable of responding to God's grace apart from God's choosing him, and infusing the understanding necessary to receive salvation, God has essentially condemned the majority of the human race to hell with absolutely no chance of salvation.

Yet, the Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is available to all who will receive. [John 3:16, Acts 17:30, 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, Rev. 22:17]. If God offers salvation to only an elect few, then God's offer of salvation to "whosoever will" is not genuine. How can God say to the lost, "whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely," and then hold the water of life out of reach from the majority of mankind? This kind of reasoning reduces God to a cruel prankster. His offer is a gag. If this is the God of the Bible, then a good example of His disingenuous offer of salvation is found in Genesis 4:7.

Gen 4:6-7
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
(KJV)

God told Cain that he too can be accepted. God laid out for Cain a scenario where the entire history of humanity could have been different, if only Cain would repent, and willingly bring the offering God required. Since it is obvious Cain was not one of the "elect," because he did not repent, why did God offer salvation to him personally? Why did ask Cain the rhetorical question, "shalt thou not be accepted?" Was God taunting him? The obvious answer is that God genuinely desired that Cain would repent and be saved. His offer of salvation was genuine.

God calls even those who will ultimately reject Him. Saul was "CHOSEN" ["elect"] by God to be king of Israel.

Sam 10:23-24
23 And they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward.
24 And Samuel said to all the people, See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people? And all the people shouted, and said, God save the king.
(KJV)

Even after God's election of Saul to be king of Israel, God later rejected him.

Sam 15:23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
(KJV)

We see a principle in the story of Saul, a precedent that we can apply to "election." God "chose" a man knowing full well that later He would reject him. This flies in the face of both "Unconditional Election" and "Perseverance of the Saints."

The Bible clearly teaches that God's will is that all be saved.

Timothy 2
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here God's will is clearly laid out. It is His desire that every single person be saved. Yet, Calvinists insist that God chose only a small number to save. His decision is based soley on His own sovereign choosing. Yet, He only saves a few. If this is so, God is really messed up! On the one hand, He strongly desires to save ALL, and He is sovereign so He can save all, but He chooses to save only a few. Go figure!

And just in case you still don't get it...

Pet 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
(KJV)

I wish there was a "you're a moron" smiley.

If I had a gay son, I'd say one word, "Bye" and then point to the door. I think we all understand that "bye" means, "Get out and don't come back until you're normal and hath repented and realized your election."

You stupid fucking bigoted fucking fecal matter wanker! Oh cause someones gay you kick them out of your life. Do the whole fucjking world a fucking favour and jump off a fucking bridge. Did i say fuck enough times. If the world was an ocean you would be the shit that floats on top polluting all of it.

<snip>.... you think for one second that man can do good without God?....<snip>.

Why is that so far-fetched?

Hey remember even in America things are twisted...people change and confuse things take freedom of speech- you can say whatever you want about anyone or anything and you cannot be prosecuted for it....now people take that way out of proportion and say things that hurt and slander people's names whenever they feel like it. Gay marriage is not proper...marriage is the binding of a MAN and a WOMAN before GOD. God does not support homosexuality, and as a person who believes in God you should not tolerate gay MARRIAGE...toleration of homosexuals is all fine and dandy they are people too but there also things like civil unions that allow all of the benefits of marriage without forcing homosexuality into marriage. Marriage is a sacred thing and should not be defiled by something God rejects. ;)

sort of like how Dick Cheney was all about letting the states decide on gay marriage, until some states started deciding to allow it...then it became a matter of "activist judges" and the federal government was needed to step up. :P

Name me one state in which the people decided to allow gay marraige (NOT Civil Unions)!

sure hes gonna be dead soon anyway, then we wont have to listen to him

Then we have to listen to another pope.

Then we have to listen to another pope.
damn....

then again, the next pope might not be such of a cock

As a side note: Who says "hath"? Really.

. Gay marriage is not proper...marriage is the binding of a MAN and a WOMAN before GOD. God does not support homosexuality, and as a person who believes in God you should not tolerate gay MARRIAGE...toleration of homosexuals is all fine and dandy they are people too but there also things like civil unions that allow all of the benefits of marriage without forcing homosexuality into marriage. Marriage is a sacred thing and should not be defiled by something God rejects. ;)

You are confusing holy matrimony with marriage. There is a huge thread about this already, but i'll summarise the differences: holy matrimony is what you describe in your post.
Marriage is what gives you state benefits, like taxcuts and the authority to speak on your partners behalf. It is available to people of every faith, not just Christians. Example: Atheists can marry to, but they obviously don't do that before God. If you wish you can call these unions. However, non-church hetereosexual marriage would also be called a union.

The pope can say things about both, but his opinion of statemarriages is completely irrelevant due to seperation of church and state.

damn....

then again, the next pope might not be such of a cock

I doubt it. I have to be careful what I say though, my best friend (and hopefully be my gf again) is a catholic as is most of my father's side of the family.

I doubt it. I have to be careful what I say though, my best friend (and hopefully be my gf again) is a catholic as is most of my father's side of the family.
unfortunate situation youre in....

unfortunate situation youre in....

meh. My grandfather is cool and doesn't really care. My best friend is sweet and knows I ain't a catholic but we've been leaving religion (for the most part) out of our relationship that we've been buildin. By that I mean religious feuds. We respect eachother's religion. So its not as bad as it sounds though some members of her family....

I would imagine it's the same old, same old. Accepting gay marriage = fewer children being born = fewer potential Christians.

Plus, according to church doctrine, it is a sin... then again, what isn't at one time or other?

Umm...rappelling?

Remember when Jesussaves said allowing gay marriage violated his rights to practice his religion? The pope apparently feels the same way.

Hey remember even in America things are twisted...people change and confuse things take freedom of speech- you can say whatever you want about anyone or anything and you cannot be prosecuted for it....now people take that way out of proportion and say things that hurt and slander people's names whenever they feel like it. Gay marriage is not proper...marriage is the binding of a MAN and a WOMAN before GOD. God does not support homosexuality, and as a person who believes in God you should not tolerate gay MARRIAGE...toleration of homosexuals is all fine and dandy they are people too but there also things like civil unions that allow all of the benefits of marriage without forcing homosexuality into marriage. Marriage is a sacred thing and should not be defiled by something God rejects. ;)
actually, that doesn't respond to my post at all, even though you titled your post "responding to Bottle's post." you basically went on a random tangent about your God, totally ignoring the subject of human rights, and totally ignoring the fact that many gods reject your particular vision of marriage.

i hate people who hijack, especially when they do it by posting the same arguments that have already been refuted a bazillion times over. GET NEW MATERIAL!

I swear, I see this topic on more time...

Listen, folks. The Pope, and the Catholic Church in general, has said that homosexuality was a sin for years, even the "gay marriage" debate. They're not going to change, anytime soon.


And you know what? I give them credit for that. At least they're not bowing down to "polical correctness" like many other Christian faiths are. They're standing up for their beliefs, and won't let anything change it.

Homosexuals are sinners by CHOICE. You are not born gay. Yet these sodomites continue to corrupt the world by destroying tradition left and right. The Pope is right to say they are evil. In Massachusetts, my state, they have perverted marriage and now prance around as if they are a man and a woman. Its disgusting.
even if homosexuality were a choice, and even if that choice were a wicked one, that would be no grounds for denying human rights to those who make that choice.

a man who steals has sinned, yet he has human rights. a murderer has human rights. a prisoner of war, an enemy combatent who may have killed dozens or hundreds of our comrades, has human rights.

whether or not homosexuality is wicked has NO BEARING ON THIS TOPIC.

stop flaunting the extreme degree of your own sexual repression, and quit hijacking my thread.

I think we all understand that "bye" means, "Get out and don't come back until you're normal and hath repented and realized your election."
really?

crap. i just said "bye" to my boss as i headed out for lunch...i'm prolly fired, aren't i?

I swear, I see this topic on more time...

Listen, folks. The Pope, and the Catholic Church in general, has said that homosexuality was a sin for years, even the "gay marriage" debate. They're not going to change, anytime soon.


And you know what? I give them credit for that. At least they're not bowing down to "polical correctness" like many other Christian faiths are. They're standing up for their beliefs, and won't let anything change it.
THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT.

THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S STANCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY OR GAY MARRIAGE.

are we all clear on that? let me be even more specific:

i posed a question at the beginning of this thread, asking somebody to explain how the Pope's statement that human rights are being pitted against man could make any sense. THAT IS THE TOPIC. the topic is NOT gay marriage. the topic is NOT homosexuality. the topic is NOT religion.

yes, several people have come on to this thread and begun yammering about how gays go to hell and God hates fags and yadda yadda. those people are sexually repressed and terrified individuals who are obsessed with the topic of gays for some unknown reason. they feel compelled to think about other peoples' sex lives, and to tell everybody what they think about other peoples' sex lives. they are pathetic creatures who need our help and our compassion, but this is NOT the place to address their personal issues. this topic is NOT ABOUT GAYS, GAY MARRIAGE, OR THE FACTORS INVOLVED IN DETERMINING SEXUALITY.

really?

crap. i just said "bye" to my boss as i headed out for lunch...i'm prolly fired, aren't i?

Aw dude, you're in the deep shit now.

Aw dude, you're in the deep shit now.
of course, it is certainly true that my boss is not a "normal" lady; if "normal" describes "one who conforms to the norm," then a woman who holds three doctoral-level degrees certainly is not "normal." she also has not repented for her many sins, including (but not limited to) her choice to adopt three kids instead of having any biological children, which VE has informed me is a hell-worthy offense. she also does not harbor any belief that she is a member of an "elect" group that will be saved by a supernatural being.

so, technically, my use of "bye" as defined by VE is accurate in this case. perhaps my boss won't take it personally.

of course, it is certainly true that my boss is not a "normal" lady; if "normal" describes "one who conforms to the norm," then a woman who holds three doctoral-level degrees certainly is not "normal." she also has not repented for her many sins, including (but not limited to) her choice to adopt three kids instead of having any biological children, which VE has informed me is a hell-worthy offense. she also does not harbor any belief that she is a member of an "elect" group that will be saved by a supernatural being.

so, technically, my use of "bye" as defined by VE is accurate in this case. perhaps my boss won't take it personally.

You'd best hope so, dude. But, on the other hand, I can't see anyone sharing VE's views managing to ever become anyone's boss, so you're probably in the clear.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT.

THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S STANCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY OR GAY MARRIAGE.

are we all clear on that? let me be even more specific:

i posed a question at the beginning of this thread, asking somebody to explain how the Pope's statement that human rights are being pitted against man could make any sense. THAT IS THE TOPIC. the topic is NOT gay marriage. the topic is NOT homosexuality. the topic is NOT religion.


O.K., Bottle, how about this?

Who determines what rights a human has? Who makes the decision?
Is it just a case of someone, ANYONE, stating that they have a human right to, say, suicide (to pick a nice, non-controversial example ;) ), and then everyone else has to agree with them, for fear of being "against human rights" if they disagree?

Should the U.N. decide? Should it be up to sovereign states? Should "democratic" states be able to decide on behalf of the citizens of "undemocratic" states? Should each individual be able to decide their own human rights?

What about God's opinion of what the rights of a human are? And yes, I know you accept no statement about God as verifiable, but as a large proportion of humanity disagrees with you on this, it's an important factor.

I think the Pope is saying that some so-called "human rights" are bad for humanity generally. He includes the "right" to gay marriage in this category. He is saying that gay marriage is not a right that humans actually have. You disagree with him. Who is to arbitrate between the two sides?

I posted this in another thread as a side note, but the more I think about it the more I really am baffled, so maybe somebody can clear this up for me.

In Pope John Paul II's newly published book, "Memory and Identity," the Pope has this to say about efforts to "pressure" the European parlament to accept gay marriage:

"It is legitimate and necessary to ask oneself if this is not perhaps part of a new ideology of evil, perhaps more insidious and hidden, which attempts to pit human rights against the family and against man."

Can somebody please explain to me how human rights can be pitted AGAINST man? How could the protection of human rights possibly HARM families?

The definition of human rights, according to my encyclopedia, is "basic rights and freedoms to which all humans are entitled, comprised of the right to life and liberty, freedom of thought and expression within certain guidelines, and equality before the law."

I don't understand how human rights could be pitted against human beings...how do you pit somebody's own rights against them? Is it possible to pit my right to vote against me? or to use my right to freedom of speech to harm me? or is the Pope saying that other people might be harmed by granting me human rights? Woudn't that be like claiming slave owners were harmed by granting slaves human rights? It's true, the slave owners were pitted against the human rights of the slaves, but that's called "equality." I don't see why anybody would object to that. If my human rights interfere with what somebody else was doing, then that means that person was doing something that violates human rights, right?

I'm so confused.

First and formost, I don't believe the Gov. should have anything to do with marriage, civil contracts perhaps, so I'd say the Pope is preaching the wrong message when it comes to Governance on this issue.

However, "homosexuality" by definition harms family. It requires male and female to procreate, to create a family. Of course, this is somewhat dependent on ones definition of family, I understand.

There are numerous things that are considered human rights that are protected as such that harm the concept of family, from abortion, to promiscuity, to the use of intoxicants, to use motor vehicles, to bare arms, to divorce... the list is pert near endless. I'm not arguing that some of these shouldn't be protected, but, under the right circumstances, each has the capacity to harm families.

O.K., Bottle, how about this?

Who determines what rights a human has? Who makes the decision?
Is it just a case of someone, ANYONE, stating that they have a human right to, say, suicide (to pick a nice, non-controversial example ;) ), and then everyone else has to agree with them, for fear of being "against human rights" if they disagree?

Should the U.N. decide? Should it be up to sovereign states? Should "democratic" states be able to decide on behalf of the citizens of "undemocratic" states? Should each individual be able to decide their own human rights?

What about God's opinion of what the rights of a human are? And yes, I know you accept no statement about God as verifiable, but as a large proportion of humanity disagrees with you on this, it's an important factor.

I think the Pope is saying that some so-called "human rights" are bad for humanity generally. He includes the "right" to gay marriage in this category. He is saying that gay marriage is not a right that humans actually have. You disagree with him. Who is to arbitrate between the two sides?

AHHHHHH!!!!!!!

FINALLY!!!!

thank you. there it was. that was the answer i was looking for. i honestly was having trouble understanding what the hell the Pope was talking about, and i wasn't looking for people to debate the validity of homosexuality or any of that other crap.

THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY ANSWERING MY QUESTION!!! you are one of life's winners!

First and formost, I don't believe the Gov. should have anything to do with marriage, civil contracts perhaps, so I'd say the Pope is preaching the wrong message when it comes to Governance on this issue.

agreed.

However, "homosexuality" by definition harms family. It requires male and female to procreate, to create a family.

totally untrue. the ability to produce offspring does not determine one's ability to make a family. many people who make babies are totally incapable of making families, and many people who are incapable of making babies make wonderful, loving families.


Of course, this is somewhat dependent on ones definition of family, I understand.

for my purposes, "family" refers to a fundamental social group in society, often consisting of parents, young, and relatives, usually residing in the same dwelling place or having done so at one point in time. biological relatedness between these parties is common but not essential.


There are numerous things that are considered human rights that are protected as such that harm the concept of family, from abortion, to promiscuity, to the use of intoxicants, to use motor vehicles, to bare arms, to divorce... the list is pert near endless. I'm not arguing that some of these shouldn't be protected, but, under the right circumstances, each has the capacity to harm families.
that seems to be the argument that how people choose to act within their rights can be harmful to families. for instance, me having freedom of speech does not harm anybody, but if i choose to say something hateful to another human being (one possible act i could take within my right to freedom of speech) that could be harmful.

i think that is an important distinction.

Name me one state in which the people decided to allow gay marraige (NOT Civil Unions)!

Does anyone have an answer?

THAT'S NOT WHAT THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT.

THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S STANCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY OR GAY MARRIAGE.


Tell that to everyone who is saying the Pope is a senile old man, and they can't wait until he's dead so they no longer have to listen to him.


i posed a question at the beginning of this thread, asking somebody to explain how the Pope's statement that human rights are being pitted against man could make any sense. THAT IS THE TOPIC. the topic is NOT gay marriage. the topic is NOT homosexuality. the topic is NOT religion.


Like is said, tell that to everyone who said the Pope was just a senile old man.




yes, several people have come on to this thread and begun yammering about how gays go to hell and God hates fags and yadda yadda.

I don’t know about that, but last week Odin told me that he doesn’t allow gays in Valhalla he said they were “sissy, pansy, girlie men”.



those people are sexually repressed and terrified individuals who are obsessed with the topic of gays for some unknown reason.

Or maybe, just maybe, they actually believe their religion, even if some of the tenets don’t comply to the philosophy of modern liberalism.

they feel compelled to think about other peoples' sex lives, and to tell everybody what they think about other peoples' sex lives.

So? You feel the need to attack their beliefs, and tell everyone what you think of them. The way I see it, they’re entitled to that right, just as you are.


they are pathetic creatures who need our help and our compassion

I don’t know about them, but I wouldn’t want your “compassion”.



but this is NOT the place to address their personal issues.

So you never posted in a message board about a topic you passionate about, in a thread that brought up the issues? Even if it was “off topic”?

this topic is NOT ABOUT GAYS, GAY MARRIAGE, OR THE FACTORS INVOLVED IN DETERMINING SEXUALITY.


Again, tell every other poster in this topic.


Anyway, human “rights” can be turned on humanity, simply because most are not really rights. They’re just laws, made to “better” humanity. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like government telling me what I should do or believe, even if I believe it as is.

...I'm so confused.

So is the Pope. :D