NationStates Jolt Archive

Since I first entered the world of NS General, I have seen some pretty intresting debates. However, I think its about time we had a Scientific Debate about something other than Evolution, So here it is:

Do you believe Physics, or Science in general, will ever find that holy grail that is the Grand Unified Theory?

No.

:p

Almost certainly. But it probably won't be right.

so whats a grand unified theory then?

Hopefully, yes. Of course, it would be pretty useless in practice, but the fundamental level of understanding it would provide would be awesome..

If I would know where to look I'd be on it now. Nobelprizes are nifty ;)

so whats a grand unified theory then?


Sigh. You just had to ask, didn't you...

is it like....

stuff = everything - some other stuff

that seems to fit most things i can think of

is it like....

stuff = everything - some other stuff

that seems to fit most things i can think of

Dear lord, he's cracked it!! Quickly, Nadkor, to the patent's office! This is really big! Bigger than you or I, it's not merely amazing, it's not simply fantastic, it's amazingly fantastically amazing!

so whats a grand unified theory then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything

A grand unified theory is a theory that can (theoretically) explain all forces and reactions in the universe as a result of an original action caused by the original force, which was a kind of combination of the four basic forces we see in the universe right now.

Dear lord, he's cracked it!! Quickly, Nadkor, to the patent's office! This is really big! Bigger than you or I, it's not merely amazing, it's not simply fantastic, it's amazingly fantastically amazing!
:cool:

Yeah I think that a Unified theory of everything will be found.

so whats a grand unified theory then?
A theory to unite the universal models of Einstein and Newton.

Isn't it also to unite the concept of Quantum Physics with the other two?

Not only that, it would also unite the four basic forces. Then it would be very unified, and rather grand indeed.

As I understand it, GUT is meant to unfiy the theories of Newton and Einstein with basic mathematics and create a [possibly simple] equation by which all of the laws they created work, and more.

They say that with GUT, we'll be able to travel faster than light, create worm holes, do all that shizzat. And it'll be so simple we can teach it to a gradeschool student.

So they say, anyway. I think they will. Didn't Hawking prove that it exists?

As I understand it, GUT is meant to unfiy the theories of Newton and Einstein with basic mathematics and create a [possibly simple] equation by which all of the laws they created work, and more.

No. Einsteins equations have replaced Newton's as the best descriptions of movement. What is needed is to find a way of unifying Relativity and Gravity with Quantum mechanics.

They say that with GUT, we'll be able to travel faster than light, create worm holes, do all that shizzat. And it'll be so simple we can teach it to a gradeschool student.

No, we won't be able to do any of that stuff with GUT. A GUT would be merely A DESCRIPTION OF HOW THE WORLD WORKS on a fundamental level. It would probably tell us whether faster-than-light travel or wormholes are possible or impossible; it might even give us the basis for where to start looking for a way to actualize them. Maybe. If we get lucky.

It would, hopefully, be fairly simple mathematically; however, this does NOT mean that we can teach it to a gradeschool student.

For example, all of special relativity can be written down in three or four equations. They are simple enough so that anyone with a basic algebra education can plug in numbers and get an answer. However, does this mean that special relativity is simple enough to be taught to a gradeschool student? No, of course not. The hard part is understanding what the equations mean and how and when to apply them.

Same with electromagnetism. ALL of classical electromagnetic theory is encompassed with Maxwell's four equations - simple equations, easy to understand. However, to apply them one needs a knowledge of vector calculus; they're not teachable in grade school since most students do not have that background.

A GUT, if one is found, would probably be expressed very simply, in a couple of equations - or at least physicists would try to reduce it to a couple of equations. However, these equations would almost certainly require the applications of mathematical principles generally not taught in grade school; also, just like with any physical theory, being able to plug numbers into equations is a far cry from understanding the theory.

The theory with the most promise for eventually becoming a candidate for a GUT right now is string theory; the math for that is so complicated that, well, the mathematical principles for doing the calculations don't even exist right now. The leading theorists just can't do the calculations because they don't know how, even though the theory has a fairly simple basis.


So they say, anyway. I think they will. Didn't Hawking prove that it exists?

No, Hawking proved no such thing...

If that is what you consider to be a GUT, a thing that will magically give humans the power to do anything they like with the universe and let everyone understand everything - then I should change my vote to NO, it will never be found.

They've allready found it but have delayed releasing it until they get the results back from a focus group who were charged with the task of deciding what font the theroy should be presented in so as to maximise the uptake of the theroy within the key scientist demographic.

As relativity and quantum mechanics are incompatible, it appears unlikely that we are going the right direction.
I have a feeling of Ptolemaic astronomy about Super string theory and M-branes etc. They all seem to be too patchworked, to clumsy. There is an essential elegance missing.

So I voted No.

They've allready found it but have delayed releasing it until they get the results back from a focus group who were charged with the task of deciding what font the theroy should be presented in so as to maximise the uptake of the theroy within the key scientist demographic.

They did this before, when they released the Camel as the "Horse ZX950 with speed humps" didn't they?

Yes, but not for centuries, even millenia if we last that long and one day an individual will have a 'Eureaka' moment and find a Grand Unified Theory. It will be partly right, no one will believe it, someone else will come along and change it slightly and everyone will praise him as if he created it.

Reasonabilityness: Now now. No need to be so terse. I never claimed to be an expert; I've only read and heard a few things.

And don't Einstein's theories break down at some point?

Since I first entered the world of NS General, I have seen some pretty intresting debates. However, I think its about time we had a Scientific Debate about something other than Evolution, So here it is:

Do you believe Physics, or Science in general, will ever find that holy grail that is the Grand Unified Theory?Yes, it's only a matter of time.

And don't Einstein's theories break down at some point?We are already 100 years past Einstein.

Call me a pessimist, but I think it'll take a goddamn genius to do it, a one in a trillion kind of intellect. And it'll take imagination and creativity beyond what anyone has experienced.

It has been noted that Einstein wasn't a very good mathematician. He got bored with equations and usually got someone else to help him with those parts of his theses. Where he shined was in his imagination; his ability to truly understand the concepts he was dealing with. He saw and understood things that few others were capable of comprehending. It all just made sense to him, as if his thought processes had an extra dimension attached to them.

I can quote Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics to you, show you how all the equations work, but I can't close my eyes and conceptualize why Lagrangian mechanics works the way it does. I can't visualize such things in a way that makes sense to me. Some elements of science will forever remain outside my intellectual grasp, and the same is true for just about everybody. At some point you just don't get it.

It will take a genius the likes of which this world has never seen for the greatest mysteries of math and science to be solved.

We are already 100 years past Einstein.

Einstein predicted the existence of Dark Matter 50 years before the Hubble spacecraft gave hints of it, and today's scientists are still trying to understand the phenomenon.

If he'd lived a couple years more, we'd probably know all about dark matter and its role in the universe.

I don't know if we'll ever have a GUT. Concievably yes, given enough time we could, the question is will the human race give itself enough time to do it. And I doubt it would be a eureka moment. More scientific discoveries have been punctuated with, "Huh, that's funny," than eureka.

The GUT, known to many as the Unified String Theory, is highly plausible. Many scientists out there have come up with the equations that could govern this universe. However, most of these are different equations.

How can this be? Well, what this theory does is try to unite the four basic forces (strong, weak, electromagnetic, and gravitation) and their behaviors under one descriptive function. What has been proposed is that the universe is made up of very tiny (almost infinitely tiny) strings, and that these strings are the smallest building block of anything, even smaller than quarks.

Back to the different equations. The equations describe the properties of the infintessimal strings. However, no one knows what kind of strings they are. There are several theories out there, most notably the strings whose ends are permanently connected, those whose ends don't touch and are allowed to dangle a bit more, and the detachable/reattachable strings. Mathematically these all make sense and the behaviors of the 4 forces conform to each that has been derif However, only one of them is right and describes our universe. We just don't have the equipment or technology available to confirm which.

We just don't have the equipment or technology available to confirm which.

Or any. String Theory has yet to make any new predictions that we have the equipment to test - and there are other potential GUTs out there, though they are less known. Or maybe none of the ones that we're developing right now are correct and the truth is something different that we don't know of yet.

Einstein predicted the existence of Dark Matter 50 years before the Hubble spacecraft gave hints of it, and today's scientists are still trying to understand the phenomenon.

If he'd lived a couple years more, we'd probably know all about dark matter and its role in the universe.

No, he wouldn't have.

Einstein made his brilliant discoveries in his early years. He then spent the rest of his life trying to extend the theory of relativity to cover electromagnetism. He had little success, and several more years would not have made a difference.

He DID however play a vital role in developing Quantum theory - by being it's greatest critic and pointing out all of the holes in the theory as it developed, spurring its progress.

But he would not have solved any more of the great mysteries had he had a bit more time.