NationStates Jolt Archive

I am very annoyed with the recent EU decision to lift its arms embargo on China.

China is one of the world's chronic mass abusers of human rights.

*China executes ~800 people each year.

*The government supresses any political dissent, usually by killing, extrajudicial and judicial execution, and imprisonment.

*Religious freedom is also supressed. Religious people, particularly members of the Falun Gong organisation, are imprisoned, put in mental asylums, and killed.

*Torture is widely and harshly used in the Chinese prison system.

*The governernent sends dissidents, criminals and other "troublemakers" to slave labour camps.

*There is very little in the way of fair trials and people are often imprisoned without trial at all.

For these reasons and more, including China's antagonism towards the small republic of Taiwan, I do not believe that China is a country that should be allowed to buy European weapons.

Look on the bright side. When China copies European weapons and sells them for half the price you will have made an enormous contribution to China's economy and to the ability of poor countries to use military force.

Well unfortunately we live in a capitalist world...
You can buy anything from anybody... as long as the price is right.
So nobody 'important' in Europe is going to say no to China.
It would be huge economical catastrof.

Hey at least we get some money. :rolleyes:

WOW, At least someone in Europe is trying to face their own problems instead of blaming the US for everything.

That's because for once the us has nothing to do with this, we screwed up on our own thanks to your wonderful training..... :rolleyes:

I am very annoyed with the recent EU decision to lift its arms embargo on China.

[QUOTE=Swimmingpool]China is one of the world's chronic mass abusers of human rights.Hmm... What about the Native Americans? The people of Jerusalem during the Crusades? What about Africa?

*China executes ~800 people each year.So? Proportionally, China executes as many people as some other nations.

*The government supresses any political dissent, usually by killing, extrajudicial and judicial execution, and imprisonment.Um... So does America with its Homeland Security and with some EU nations because of American pressure.

*Religious freedom is also supressed. Religious people, particularly members of the Falun Gong organisation, are imprisoned, put in mental asylums, and killed.How about you learn the truth about Falun Gong before you start spouting off about suppressing religion. If the Chinese really wanted to suppress religion, there would be no Buddhist Temples anywhere in China...

*Torture is widely and harshly used in the Chinese prison system.Ever heard of the American and British torture incidents in both Iraq and Cuba?

*There is very little in the way of fair trials and people are often imprisoned without trial at all.This does happen all over the world...

For these reasons and more, including China's antagonism towards the small republic of Taiwan, I do not believe that China is a country that should be allowed to buy European weapons. Taiwan is not technically even a recognized nation in the international community. Its not even in the UN, in the WTO, or in any other major global organization.

Hmm... What about the Native Americans? The people of Jerusalem during the Crusades? What about Africa?
So? Proportionally, China executes as many people as some other nations.
Um... So does America with its Homeland Security and with some EU nations because of American pressure.
How about you learn the truth about Falun Gong before you start spouting off about suppressing religion. If the Chinese really wanted to suppress religion, there would be no Buddhist Temples anywhere in China...
Ever heard of the American and British torture incidents in both Iraq and Cuba?
This does happen all over the world...
Taiwan is not technically even a recognized nation in the international community. Its not even in the UN, in the WTO, or in any other major global organization.

Who are you exactly? You seem awfully apologetic for the Chinese government. Normally we don't see this kind of party-line "Damn the facts, full speed ahead!" mentality outside of US politics.

I've addressed the point of "How do two very stupid wrongs make a right" before, but I guess this is a new thread and I will have to do so again.

The US and the EU are different entities; they ARE free to make the same mistakes as each other, but its not wise to sew the wind when your neighbor just did and reaped the whirlwind! What I'm arguing here is not about the RIGHTS of the EU, just about the FORESIGHT of the EU. I think that the EU may be hastily making a desicion for short-term gains that will cost it dearly in the long run.

I could call on you to back up your assertions about proportional killings, but I won't. Its possible the US does indeed propotionally excecute criminals at the same level, but the US had, before 9/11, been recognized to have "Judicial Review" that would help ensure that excecutions were not misused. After 9/11 some groups put Judicial review in jeapordy, and thus the moral uprightness of the US into question again; but that's NOT THE POINT. The point IS that the sins of the current administration does not mean the entire population of the US loses THEIR right to speak out against stupid moves made by others!

Taiwanese independence or lack thereof is something only maintained in diplomatic circles for the benifit of all parties. In the REAL world, we know Taiwan is a breakaway province that formed its own government that is routinely plays with the idea of formally declaring independance. The US does not WANT that to happen, China does not WANT that to happen. Of the two, China is prepared to use force to make sure that Taiwan does not announce formally what it has already done for years.

The mere fact that you dispute the very reality of the situation in favor of diplomatic "polite fictions" speaks volumes about your stand on the issue. That's why I am very curious indeed about the nature of your participation.

Who are you exactly? You seem awfully apologetic for the Chinese government. Normally we don't see this kind of party-line "Damn the facts, full speed ahead!" mentality outside of US politics.

I've addressed the point of "How do two very stupid wrongs make a right" before, but I guess this is a new thread and I will have to do so again.

The US and the EU are different entities; they ARE free to make the same mistakes as each other, but its not wise to sew the wind when your neighbor just did and reaped the whirlwind! What I'm arguing here is not about the RIGHTS of the EU, just about the FORESIGHT of the EU. I think that the EU may be hastily making a desicion for short-term gains that will cost it dearly in the long run.

I could call on you to back up your assertions about proportional killings, but I won't. Its possible the US does indeed propotionally excecute criminals at the same level, but the US had, before 9/11, been recognized to have "Judicial Review" that would help ensure that excecutions were not misused. After 9/11 some groups put Judicial review in jeapordy, and thus the moral uprightness of the US into question again; but that's NOT THE POINT. The point IS that the sins of the current administration does not mean the entire population of the US loses THEIR right to speak out against stupid moves made by others!

Taiwanese independence or lack thereof is something only maintained in diplomatic circles for the benifit of all parties. In the REAL world, we know Taiwan is a breakaway province that formed its own government that is routinely plays with the idea of formally declaring independance. The US does not WANT that to happen, China does not WANT that to happen. Of the two, China is prepared to use force to make sure that Taiwan does not announce formally what it has already done for years.

The mere fact that you dispute the very reality of the situation in favor of diplomatic "polite fictions" speaks volumes about your stand on the issue. That's why I am very curious indeed about the nature of your participation.

So, diplomats in both countries refuse to call a spade a spade. De facto, Taiwan, IS a sovereign nation.

Well, let's say hypothetically that the Ruhr region in Germany secedes and forms its own government. Would Germany allow that? No.

The same thing applies to Taiwan and China.

Did Taiwan leave China before or after Mao? I was under the impression that it was before. Mao created a new china. It had a radically different government, culture, and even borders. Taiwan left before the "new" China was founded, therefore I think they should be recognized as a separate nation.

Did Taiwan leave China before or after Mao? I was under the impression that it was before. Mao created a new china. It had a radically different government, culture, and even borders. Taiwan left before the "new" China was founded, therefore I think they should be recognized as a separate nation.

They left because of Mao. The Chinese civil war between the Communists under Mao Tse Tung and the Nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek was eventually won by the Communists, and when they lost the Nationalists fled to Taiwan and established the "true" government of China in exile, and have been there ever since.

The Western world supports China in every economic way fathomable. Might as well, start selling them weapons and making some money off of them.

They left because of Mao. The Chinese civil war between the Communists under Mao Tse Tung and the Nationalists under Chiang Kai-shek was eventually won by the Communists, and when they lost the Nationalists fled to Taiwan and established the "true" government of China in exile, and have been there ever since.
Sounds like a separate nation to me.

The Western world supports China in every economic way fathomable. Might as well, start selling them weapons and making some money off of them.
I'd rather suspend all trade with them until they start honoring patent and copyright agreements, but then I guess that's why I'm not working for the government.

Well, let's say hypothetically that the Ruhr region in Germany secedes and forms its own government. Would Germany allow that? No.

The same thing applies to Taiwan and China.

**laughs** You didn't answer my question.

If Chechnya breaks away from Russia, is Russia willing to fight a bloody civil war to get it back? You bet.

If the South breaks away from the US, is the US willing to fight a bloody civil war to get it back? You can answer this one.

If French colonies break away from the French empire, is france willing to fight for them? You betcha.

Name me one nation that willingly gave up territory when it could instead fight a brutal civil war and I'll give you a cookie (there are a few, though they are loaded with "exceptions"). Your point is invalid; Nations NEVER allow breakaways if they can help it; that's not the point. The point is that sometimes the breakaways have ALREADY HAPPENED, 50 years ago.

Right, this is not the point of my discussion. I know China has a real problem with the idea of Taiwan not being part of "greater China." I can accept that. I can also accept the idea that China and Taiwan should get back together. However my (and strangely enough, the US's) position is that it should happen PEACEFULLY. This means no support for any action that allows China to kill its way back into formal ownership of Taiwan. Put that idea back on the shelf with all the other Wars we've managed to avoid over the years.

Here the thing: China is encouraged by the US to pursue the matter peacefully; diplomatic "conquest" is the ideal solution to this problem. Think of how much better it will be for the millions of people involved if one day China and Taiwan simply link arms and join together again. Sure beats a pointless war doesn't it?

The EU's actions challange my rosy scenerio; and challange it pointlessly. Changing the equation on Taiwan encourages war; for example...

Invade Taiwan with outdated weapons=
Taiwan holds on long enough for the US to counter-attack + Huge war with massive losses on all sides + Chinese economic zones hit hard by US bombing + No garuntee that Taiwan is taken.

Invade Taiwan with state of the art weapons=
Fast strikes allow Taiwan to be hit before US counter-attack + Diplomatic shuffle creates a fiat accompli + a now devestated Taiwan under a Chinese military occupation + likely sanctions against China.

See the difference? I'm trying to save Taiwan AND China by promoting a third option:

Allow Taiwanese interdependance with China naturally gravitate it to rejoin= No war + both sides GROW economically rather that get devestated + No Increased hatred from defeated foes + Transition to fully incorperated China.

How is my scenerio a bad one? Especially compared to the use of force?

Allow Taiwanese interdependance with China naturally gravitate it to rejoin= No war + both sides GROW economically rather that get devestated + No Increased hatred from defeated foes + Transition to fully incorperated China.

How is my scenerio a bad one? Especially compared to the use of force?

Something similar to the method used to reintegrate Hong Kong, yes?

How is my scenerio a bad one? Especially compared to the use of force?


You've got some very good points, but you forgot one rather important thing... maybe Taiwan split off from china for a reason, maybe they don't want to get back together. What then?

Um... Both sides are following Option 3.

I am very annoyed with the recent EU decision to lift its arms embargo on China.

China is one of the world's chronic mass abusers of human rights.

*China executes ~800 people each year.
In a population of 1,000,000,000 people I'm not even sure that rivals the execution rates in Texas. But then again I'm not good at math.

*The government supresses any political dissent, usually by killing, extrajudicial and judicial execution, and imprisonment.
Such a backward country. They should do it with massive propoganda campaigns like we do in the US. We just started a new one where they've started calling the elderly a population of queer-loving peacenicks because they don't like Bush's social security problems.

Supressing dissent via propoganda is so much better for the economy. China needs to invest in expanding its television networks and get Rupert Murdoch to manage the State-run media.

*Religious freedom is also supressed. Religious people, particularly members of the Falun Gong organisation, are imprisoned, put in mental asylums, and killed.

That's pretty sad. In ages past the emperor just declared himself the head of every popular religion and it worked great. Towards the end he was the Buddha, the Jade Emperor, and probably the Pope.

*Torture is widely and harshly used in the Chinese prison system.
How inefficient. We just get them to rape eachother.

*The governernent sends dissidents, criminals and other "troublemakers" to slave labour camps.
We send them to Cuba and Saundi Arabia.

*There is very little in the way of fair trials and people are often imprisoned without trial at all.
In this at least we are begining to catch them up.

For these reasons and more, including China's antagonism towards the small republic of Taiwan, I do not believe that China is a country that should be allowed to buy European weapons.

Ya, Japan figured out over a hundred years ago that it makes much more sense to just buy 5 year old factory plans and equipment then work up from there. I don't see what's keeping China from doing the same.

You've got some very good points, but you forgot one rather important thing... maybe Taiwan split off from china for a reason, maybe they don't want to get back together. What then?

Taiwan DID split off for some very good reasons, but most polls show that reintigration is seen as favorable overall. If this changes, then provisions might need to be made. A Hong Kong model could be adopted very easily, or some other negotiated settlement for semi-autonomy under the Chinese flag.

And none of this needs to happen now either, 50 years ago such a settlement would be considered outrageous. But with time, things moderate out a bit.

I take the Three Kingdoms as my model here: The empire long divided will reunite. Wu in the Southland resisted all major military actions against it for over sixty years, even defeating Cao Cao's million man army at Chi Bi. But later; when Wu's ruling house was not functional anymore, the North simply moved in and took control of the South without a single major battle. The Empire was united not by military force, but by good stable government.

I argue that the mainland merely needs to wait; and Taiwan will come back to it of its own accord. It may take a few years, even a generation, but this is China...They've got the time.

well i'd just like to say that there is no way there'd be a war between the us and china in the forseeable future

No kidding. If the US puts too much pressure on China about Taiwan, we, Chinese, will just unleash North Korea. :p

The sooner we sell those arms to China, the better. since when do we let regimes like the one from Bush tell us what to do, better start on their own (Israel, + many, many Arab rand other regimes are armed by them ).

Sell those U-boats and mirages to the chinese, they will be a new partner against the US arrogance in the world. BTW, best guarentee for peace in the region is a strong China with arms that can match the US (thus European arms).

No kidding. If the US puts too much pressure on China about Taiwan, we, Chinese, will just unleash North Korea. :p
that aint funny

Seriously, China is one of the only stabilizing factors that prevents North Korea from going belligerent. You do not want to piss off China at this current stage with the claims that North Korea has nuclear weapons.

Better they buy from us then from the Americans.

[QUOTE=Swimmingpool]I am very annoyed with the recent EU decision to lift its arms embargo on China.

Hmm... What about the Native Americans? The people of Jerusalem during the Crusades? What about Africa?

So? Proportionally, China executes as many people as some other nations.

Um... So does America with its Homeland Security and with some EU nations because of American pressure.

How about you learn the truth about Falun Gong before you start spouting off about suppressing religion. If the Chinese really wanted to suppress religion, there would be no Buddhist Temples anywhere in China...

Ever heard of the American and British torture incidents in both Iraq and Cuba?

This does happen all over the world...

Taiwan is not technically even a recognized nation in the international community. Its not even in the UN, in the WTO, or in any other major global organization.

I will say America does make some abuses.....but killing political dissidents? Are you that stupid? This whole country is divided. If the SLIGHT majority killed political dissidents, half the country would be dead. No one has been executed here for political disagreements. There are, however, supposed terrorist "suspects" unjustly held due to the Patriot Act. I criticize this nation a lot, but let's not lie here, ok.

The sooner we sell those arms to China, the better. since when do we let regimes like the one from Bush tell us what to do, better start on their own (Israel, + many, many Arab rand other regimes are armed by them ).

Sell those U-boats and mirages to the chinese, they will be a new partner against the US arrogance in the world. BTW, best guarentee for peace in the region is a strong China with arms that can match the US (thus European arms).
No, then you will have to deal with Chinese arrogance once they develop the ability to project military force into the rest of the world.

Plus they'll copy your weapons and sell them elsewhere for a fraction of the cost.

You lose both political and economic influence. Smooth move.

Better they buy from us then from the Americans.

You're stupid. The US would never sell weapons to China. Fucking dumbass.

The sooner we sell those arms to China, the better. since when do we let regimes like the one from Bush tell us what to do, better start on their own (Israel, + many, many Arab rand other regimes are armed by them ).

Sell those U-boats and mirages to the chinese, they will be a new partner against the US arrogance in the world. BTW, best guarentee for peace in the region is a strong China with arms that can match the US (thus European arms).

we're trying to fight terrorism. We and the brits just gave the Iraqi people their first legitimate vote in 50 years. And yet you complain. Are you against a popular vote? Hmmm.

last thing the world needs is for china to have lots of weapons.... unless they're pointed at North Korea.

Sure, China couldn't handle the US if they took Taiwan by force, but lts conside some things. A substantial part of the American military might is in the middle east or Europe. China has building a sizable deep water fleet, including fast attack subs and missle boats. North Korea is the redheaded step child of China, and look at the noise they've been making lately.

Now 'what-ifs'.

What if North Korea sold one of it's nukes. A suprisingly competant design, decades ahead of what they could relly build. A terrorist nuclear weapon goes off in a major city, combined with other stiffling terrorist actions.

How much more would it take to draw American attention away from the Pacific? Would rioting in major cities across the country force the government to bring troops home to help control things? Scare the Americans back into tehir isolationist shell and Taiwan will concede without a shot being fired.

we're trying to fight terrorism. We and the brits just gave the Iraqi people their first legitimate vote in 50 years. And yet you complain. Are you against a popular vote? Hmmm.

last thing the world needs is for china to have lots of weapons.... unless they're pointed at North Korea.

The Iraqis weren't involved in any terrorism before the US went there. Freedom, but at what cost? I think most of the Iraqis were happy living under Saddam's "opressive" regime (which typically only went after political enemies of the leader, and sometimes the Kurds). Far more people have died in this war than during those 50 years, and they continue to die, and continue to live horrible lives, especially compared to what they once had. Contrary to what you might think, they had Civil Rights, just not so many Political Freedoms. Women were equal with men in Iraq, but most Americans probably assume it's like Afghanistan (which is an entirely different nation and culture). Here's another thing most idiotic Americans don't know. Pakistan had a woman Prime Minister. The US hasn't even had a woman President. Now who's oppressed?

Sure, China couldn't handle the US if they took Taiwan by force, but lts conside some things. A substantial part of the American military might is in the middle east or Europe. China has building a sizable deep water fleet, including fast attack subs and missle boats. North Korea is the redheaded step child of China, and look at the noise they've been making lately.

Now 'what-ifs'.

What if North Korea sold one of it's nukes. A suprisingly competant design, decades ahead of what they could relly build. A terrorist nuclear weapon goes off in a major city, combined with other stiffling terrorist actions.

How much more would it take to draw American attention away from the Pacific? Would rioting in major cities across the country force the government to bring troops home to help control things? Scare the Americans back into tehir isolationist shell and Taiwan will concede without a shot being fired.
None of that would happen if we were attacked with a nuclear weapon. What would happen is that the US would first reduce any unfriendly muslim nation to a sheet of radioactive glass, then when N. Korea was found to be the source of the bomb we would either nuke them, or depose their government. The US becomes more aggressive when attacked, not less. We are not Spain.

TOPIC: "As a European, I'm against selling arms to China"

This is about 5-8 years late. This happened during the Clinton administration.

**laughs** You didn't answer my question.

If Chechnya breaks away from Russia, is Russia willing to fight a bloody civil war to get it back? You bet.

If the South breaks away from the US, is the US willing to fight a bloody civil war to get it back? You can answer this one.

If French colonies break away from the French empire, is france willing to fight for them? You betcha.

Name me one nation that willingly gave up territory when it could instead fight a brutal civil war and I'll give you a cookie (there are a few, though they are loaded with "exceptions"). -snip-

Allow me to answer the question on his behalf. I like cookies. :D

The post perestroika break up of the USSR is one excellent example of 'provinces' breaking away from a larger nation. Granted, there was no love lost between the parties, but it was negotiated without war being declared. In fact, that's one reason Chechnya rebels/terrorists are 'fighting for independence' - other provinces were allowed to leave, and they want to go too.

Canada and Quebec. While the federal government has stacked all kinds of conditions on top of the deal, if the Parti Quebecois got a majority vote for separation from Canada, the deal would go through. A lot of negotiation would be involved as they figure out the rights of the First Nations people etc, but we would not go to war to keep them. If one of your exceptions is to point to the martial law declared by Trudeau during the FLQ crisis, I point out that the situation is different. The FLQ crisis involved the kidnapping of government ministers, one from Canada, one from Britain. The Canadian minister was killed. That, and other acts, were considered acts of terrorism. Now that Quebec has a non-violent option to secede, and the decision is one that has to be made by Quebec voters, not Canada, violence has been effectively stopped. Separatists must appeal to the hearts and minds of Quebec voters, not the fears of the rest of Canada.

Can I have my cookie now?

http://asuaf.org/~thatoneguy/cookie.jpg

all yours

I love you guys - a long day behind me, and coming here and finding another silly, straying-from-topic conversation with 'experts' on international diplomacy... You really made my day. Thank you and good night. :D

Everybody seems to be getting all rosy with the idea of a peaceful reunification of China and Taiwan, but what about the wishes of the Taiwanese people? Shouldn't Taiwan's fate be left up to Taiwan's people? Who are we to just lay out some plan of peaceful re-joining when the reality is that the majority of people in Taiwan favor independence, and those who wish to reunify with China are a minority? Look in the news: there have been countless protests in Taiwan advocating its formal independence, and in many parts of Taiwan there is a general prejudice against all things Chinese. The only thing keeping Taiwan from declaring its independence tomorrow is the threat of a military and/or economic crisis, as such a declaration would undoubtedly involve at least China and the US if not most of the free world.

You're stupid. The US would never sell weapons to China. Fucking dumbass.
Fuck off you idiot. The US would never...*laughs*

Ad hominem attacks are clearly called for in this situation.

Fuck off you idiot. The US would never...*laughs*

Considering the US barely has diplomatic relations with China, I think its safe to say that unless some authoritarian government with far left leanings took over, China would never get arms from the US. You're fucking stupid for even implying it. Dumbass.

I am very annoyed with the recent EU decision to lift its arms embargo on China.

1. Hmm... What about the Native Americans? The people of Jerusalem during the Crusades? What about Africa?

2. So? Proportionally, China executes as many people as some other nations.

3. Um... So does America with its Homeland Security and with some EU nations because of American pressure.

4. How about you learn the truth about Falun Gong before you start spouting off about suppressing religion. If the Chinese really wanted to suppress religion, there would be no Buddhist Temples anywhere in China...

5. Ever heard of the American and British torture incidents in both Iraq and Cuba?

6. This does happen all over the world...

7. Taiwan is not technically even a recognized nation in the international community. Its not even in the UN, in the WTO, or in any other major global organization.
1. Are these atrocities still going on today? No!

2. I regard all capital punishment as human rights abuse. Iran executes more proportionally, but they're hardly a model of human rights standards. But if China was executing as many people as the USA does (~65 people a year), proportionally to population they would be executing "only" 291 people a year. (That's going by Amnesty International estimates.) The Chinese are very secretive about their execution processes. It could be far more. Indeed, one Chinese legislator suggested in March 2004 that China executes "nearly 10,000" people each year. evidence (http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-sentences-eng)

3. I am not trying to justify pseudo-fascist US measures to detain "suspected terrorists", and I am not even aware of any European countries that have imprisoned people unjustly like that. But neither the US or Europe has killed anyone for political dissent in the past 50 years.

4. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the brutal supression of Tibet.

5. Yes, and as any frequenter of this forum will know I freely bash the US government for their use of torture in Camp X-Ray and Abu Ghraib. But their techniques are mild campared to the hardcore brutality found in Chinese jails.

6. And this justifies China doing it?

7. I don't care, but that doesn't mean I think it's "OK" if China decides to kill, burn and bomb its way through Taiwan.

Swimmingpool, I really must agree with you with respect to China's occupation of Tibet. Look how China has brutally occupied Tibet, oppressed its people, and denied Tibet its natural right to self-determination. Should China be allowed to incorporate Taiwan into its borders, who could guarantee that Taiwan would not suffer similar atrocities?

Allow me to answer the question on his behalf. I like cookies. :D

Can I have my cookie now?

Indeed you may :)

Everybody seems to be getting all rosy with the idea of a peaceful reunification of China and Taiwan, but what about the wishes of the Taiwanese people? Shouldn't Taiwan's fate be left up to Taiwan's people? Who are we to just lay out some plan of peaceful re-joining when the reality is that the majority of people in Taiwan favor independence, and those who wish to reunify with China are a minority? Look in the news: there have been countless protests in Taiwan advocating its formal independence, and in many parts of Taiwan there is a general prejudice against all things Chinese. The only thing keeping Taiwan from declaring its independence tomorrow is the threat of a military and/or economic crisis, as such a declaration would undoubtedly involve at least China and the US if not most of the free world.

I agree with you on this, which is why I advocate waiting and seeing what comes down the road. Right now, things don't look especially good, but long-term things do moderate.

Its true that there is a sizable "Native" population on Taiwan, those that were not refugees from the former nationalist republic. There are also some hard-line nationalists who refuse to consider peaceful reunification still around. Both of those groups are vocal, but from what I've seen they are not the majority.

Historically, if you look at China, wayward provinces have a tendency to come back into the fold after a period. So that gives the international community reason to belive that reunification is possible/desireable. THAT'S why we are planning the peaceful rejoining; because it seems like the most likely outcome. Also, the idea that true independence would start a war doesn't hurt ;).

One thing that I have heard is that the Native Taiwanese are annoyed at the Nationalist groups because of their handling of the government; charges of corruption or misuse of power were sprouting up in the late 90's.

Should China be allowed to incorporate Taiwan into its borders, who could guarantee that Taiwan would not suffer similar atrocities?
Only if the people of Taiwan want to be a part of China. Otherwise, China may not annex Taiwan into its borders.

No, then you will have to deal with Chinese arrogance once they develop the ability to project military force into the rest of the world. .

Hmm, speaking of a double standard! What about the US arrogance, allready a fact...


Plus they'll copy your weapons and sell them elsewhere for a fraction of the cost. .
So what!, they allways did it, just like the US copies lots of EU things, remember the arrested and expelled US spies at the Ariane site, since then, the ESA forbid and fired US citizens that worked for them because of the continued spionage. (guess that FOX forget to mention this at the US public, but NY times and others did, it was only 9 months ago).

You lose both political and economic influence. Smooth move. That is wrong, you lose influence since the world is more and more becoming European in the way that they copy the peacefull (and more powerfull) economic influence instead of the brainless millitary influence of the US, doomed to fail.

The future is on our side, not yours. Must be hard to see the influence changing in so few years, fasten your seatbelts, we are only starting and are doing it our way.(90% of the world prefers us to you guys, says enough)

*China executes ~800 people each year.





800 a year and you're alarmed? 800 a year is nothing compared to how many folks deserve death. I'm talking about violent criminals, not political or "thought" criminals.

Do you know how many rapes occur each year in the USA? In South Africa? in Brazil? In the United Kingdom?

In South Africa alone, there ought to be at least 500,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the USA there ought to be at least 50,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the UK, there ought to be somewhere around 200,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape.

800 is nothing compared to what it ought to be. But in this case, I imagine those 800 are largely for political reasons, so that then does become a problem.

But time was, not too many days back either, when a rapist in the USA would be sent to the chair, the electric chair. Anyway, that's how it was in Alabama and most other southern states, that is if a lynch mob didn't get you first.


I really think women have come a long way, just imagine, if it was still 1920, folks would be forming mobs to hang their attackers, rather than forming mobs to call the women who were victimized, whores and sluts. (I've seen this happen, folks shout, "Whore!", etc, whenever they see somebody who had been rumored to have been raped)

See, back in the old days there was something called lynching, and it's sadly gone out of fashion. But then again, feminism taught women they're big and strong and can fight for themselves without the help of men, and it taught men if they even try to help a woman or speak to a woman at work, it's sexual harassment and you'll be sued or lose your job, or whatever else it is they do.

Feminism did nothing more than polarize men and women against each other.

I don't see a problem with women voting, but they took things way too far. The good intentioned feminists were mislead and deceived by a communist movement, it's documented fact. Just search the femi-commie link in my signature and read a few articles by the man, he provides good documentation and proof.


Anyway, not to go off on a tangent here, so back on topic.


I really don't care what happens with China, they're going to overtake us anyway, we might as well sell them electronical weapons systems with kill-switches, so when the war starts, we activate some satellites, and all their planes and other things that they get from us, just freeze up, drop out of the sky, or even explode.

Only if the people of Taiwan want to be a part of China. Otherwise, China may not annex Taiwan into its borders.

Why not, Taiwan is not recognised, just like it is only Turkey that recognises the occupied part of Cyprus by Turks.
Fuck Taiwan, it is not worth a crisis, when the Chinese invade and take back their island from the insurgents, we don't have to interfere in intern Chinese maters.

Hmm, speaking of a double standard! What about the US arrogance, allready a fact...


So what!, they allways did it, just like the US copies lots of EU things, remember the arrested and expelled US spies at the Ariane site, since then, the ESA forbid and fired US citizens that worked for them because of the continued spionage. (guess that FOX forget to mention this at the US public, but NY times and others did, it was only 9 months ago).

That is wrong, you lose influence since the world is more and more becoming European in the way that they copy the peacefull (and more powerfull) economic influence instead of the brainless millitary influence of the US, doomed to fail.

The future is on our side, not yours. Must be hard to see the influence changing in so few years, fasten your seatbelts, we are only starting and are doing it our way.(90% of the world prefers us to you guys, says enough)
I thint there won't be much of a Europe left in the future. Multiculturalism will encourage the immigration of unskilled people with primitive tribal mindsets that will leach off the welfare state and cause negative changes in European society. Europe will be forced to either become more like the US in not extending such a high level of social welfare, Become repressive in order to keep control of the immigrants, or fall into poverty, crime and disorder.

800 a year and you're alarmed? 800 a year is nothing compared to how many folks deserve death. I'm talking about violent criminals, not political or "thought" criminals.

Do you know how many rapes occur each year in the USA? In South Africa? in Brazil? In the United Kingdom?

In South Africa alone, there ought to be at least 500,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the USA there ought to be at least 50,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the UK, there ought to be somewhere around 200,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape.

I believe Swimmingpool is saying that at least 800/ year. Considering China isn't a very open country and restricts Amnesty International from entering, 800 is probably an extremely rough estimate. North Korea is no better, with stories of people being placed in concentration camps for no other reason than they are starving!

And as for those that believe the US is so harse.....

"Amnesty International said:

"Internet users in China are increasingly caught up in a pernicious system restricting their fundamental human rights. Anyone surfing the internet could be at risk of arbitrary detention and imprisonment, even death.

In its 15-page report, 'State Control of the Internet in China', Amnesty International shows that China's response to rapid internet expansion in China has, during the past five years, included the imprisoning of numerous people for 'internet crimes.' Offences such as printing pro-democracy material, downloading and disseminating Falun Gong texts, disseminating "reactionary documents" via the internet, as well as various vague charges of "subversion" and "endangering state security," have led to long prison and labour camp sentences.

Those imprisoned have included a shopkeeper, a geophysicist, a computer engineer, a student, a civil servant and a former police officer. Prison terms, some after secret trials, have commonly been for three to four years, though several have been longer. In May this year a former policeman was imprisoned for 11 years.

Since 1995 China has introduced over 60 rules and regulations covering internet use, and 30,000 state security personnel are reportedly monitoring websites, chat rooms and email messages. New controls have including filtering systems, the blocking of foreign websites and search engines, the closure of websites that post information on corruption or articles critical of government, and the creation of special internet police."

"Amnesty International is warning that China will execute dozens and perhaps hundreds of people this week as it marks UN Anti-Drugs Day on 26 June.

“We have seen an annual spree of executions in China in the run-up to UN International Day against Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking in previous years” said Amnesty International. “Yet no convincing evidence has ever been produced that the death penalty deters would-be traffickers and users more effectively than any other punishment.”

More than 50 people were executed on drug-related charges in just eight of China’s 23 provinces in the single week leading up to Anti-Drugs Day last year. The total number across China is likely to have been in the hundreds. Already this year three alleged drug traffickers from Hong Kong have been executed, in the southern city of Shenzhen on 11 June."

800 a year and you're alarmed? 800 a year is nothing compared to how many folks deserve death. I'm talking about violent criminals, not political or "thought" criminals.

Do you know how many rapes occur each year in the USA? In South Africa? in Brazil? In the United Kingdom?

In South Africa alone, there ought to be at least 500,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the USA there ought to be at least 50,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the UK, there ought to be somewhere around 200,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape.

800 is nothing compared to what it ought to be. But in this case, I imagine those 800 are largely for political reasons, so that then does become a problem.
You don't seem to get it. I'm opposed to all death penalty. I think it's a human rights abuse. Now obviously rape and murder are also abuses, but the state should not lower itself to the level of the criminal by killing them.

Besides, can a Christian really be in favour of the death penalty? I have heard plenty of religious people, both whom I know and in the media - including priests - say that being a Christian and being a death penalty are mutually exclusive. There is always the oft-quoted Matthew 5:38-42 and John 8:7-12, which I won't bother to repeat, you know them yourself.

I really think women have come a long way, just imagine, if it was still 1920, folks would be forming mobs to hang their attackers, rather than forming mobs to call the women who were victimized, whores and sluts. (I've seen this happen, folks shout, "Whore!", etc, whenever they see somebody who had been rumored to have been raped)
Oh yeah, lynch mobs were great, especially the way they killed the wrong person most of the time. :rolleyes:
Also, I think that most people who shout "whore" at rape victims are the types who hate feminism too.

I really don't care what happens with China, they're going to overtake us anyway, we might as well sell them electronical weapons systems with kill-switches, so when the war starts, we activate some satellites, and all their planes and other things that they get from us, just freeze up, drop out of the sky, or even explode.
1. It really doesn't work like that. The Chinese aren't going to buy weapons controlled by a foreign power.

2. It's only the fools of the EU who are going to allow weapons sales to China. The US is upholding its arms embargo, thankfully.

You don't seem to get it. I'm opposed to all death penalty. I think it's a human rights abuse. Now obviously rape and murder are also abuses, but the state should not lower itself to the level of the criminal by killing them.

Besides, can a Christian really be in favour of the death penalty? I have heard plenty of religious people, both whom I know and in the media - including priests - say that being a Christian and being a death penalty are mutually exclusive. There is always the oft-quoted Matthew 5:38-42 and John 8:7-12, which I won't bother to repeat, you know them yourself.

I am for the death penalty, and indeed I want to see it expanded, to encompass rape, carjacking, armed robbery, corruption of the morality of the state, corruption of the youth, abortion except under certain cases, drug dealing, mocking God, spreading heresy against the true way to God, and probably 10-20 more things (Slander against the state, treason against the state, desertion from the armed forces, etc)



Matthew 10:34, Luke 22:36, Genesis 9:6, Psalm 58:10.

I am for the death penalty, and indeed I want to see it expanded, to encompass rape, carjacking, armed robbery, corruption of the morality of the state, corruption of the youth, abortion except under certain cases, drug dealing, mocking God, spreading heresy against the true way to God, and probably 10-20 more things (Slander against the state, treason against the state, desertion from the armed forces, etc)



Matthew 10:34, Luke 22:36, Genesis 9:6, Psalm 58:10.
So who are you when you're not posting as VoteEarly?

So who are you when you're not posting as VoteEarly?


I was originally Decisive Action, I am not a puppet of anybody.

I am for the death penalty, and indeed I want to see it expanded, to encompass rape, carjacking, armed robbery, corruption of the morality of the state, corruption of the youth, abortion except under certain cases, drug dealing, mocking God, spreading heresy against the true way to God, and probably 10-20 more things (Slander against the state, treason against the state, desertion from the armed forces, etc)
Some of those "crimes" are extremely vague and go against most of our basic civil liberties. Being allowed to criticise the government is a fundamental right. How would the state define "mocking God" or "corruption of the morality of the state"?

I was originally Decisive Action, I am not a puppet of anybody.
Yeah, right. Somebody actually thinks the way you do. :rolleyes:

Some of those "crimes" are extremely vague and go against most of our basic civil liberties. Being allowed to criticise the government is a fundamental right. How would the state define "mocking God" or "corruption of the morality of the state"?


Mocking God = Preaching anything that doesn't go in conjunction with the doctrine of Grace.


Corruption of the morality of the state= attacking the ideals upon which the state theocracy is going to be founded (preaching against the Five Points or working to undermine them)

Mocking God = Preaching anything that doesn't go in conjunction with the doctrine of Grace.


Corruption of the morality of the state= attacking the ideals upon which the state theocracy is going to be founded (preaching against the Five Points or working to undermine them)
So when I say that there's no evidence to suggest the existance of a god and it's only reasonable to be an atheist, that's a death penalty offense? I like you. You're funny.

[QUOTE=Swimmingpool]
Taiwan is not technically even a recognized nation in the international community. Its not even in the UN, in the WTO, or in any other major global organization.

If its listed in the world factbook, it's an official country...bitch.

Besides, everybody knows China can't do shit to Taiwan. Leaving alone America, Japan would be really pissed, and Japan has a freakishly good army along with Modern Armor. China can't NUKE Taiwan even if it wanted to due to a ballistic missle umbrella that is being built to cover Japan. And we all know China's gun suck.

Do you know how many rapes occur each year in the USA? In South Africa? in Brazil? In the United Kingdom?

In South Africa alone, there ought to be at least 500,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the USA there ought to be at least 50,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape. In the UK, there ought to be somewhere around 200,000 executions a year, anybody convicted of rape.



Where do you make these figures up?

In England and Wales, there were 11441 reported incidences of rape (on women) during 2002/3
click here for English and Welsh stats (http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page27.asp)

In the same year the USA had 95136
clcik here for FBI figures (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nforciblerape04.html#f28)

Yes, I know that I haven't included Scotland, or incidences of male rapes in the case of England and Wales(less than 1% of total in Britain), because I know they don't add up to another 188500 cases.

Where do you make these figures up?

In England and Wales, there were 11441 reported incidences of rape (on women) during 2002/3
click here for English and Welsh stats (http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page27.asp)

In the same year the USA had 95136
clcik here for FBI figures (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-nforciblerape04.html#f28)

Yes, I know that I haven't included Scotland, or incidences of male rapes in the case of England and Wales(less than 1% of total in Britain), because I know they don't add up to another 188500 cases.



The crime statistics in the UK are very interesting, it only counts as a crime if the accused is brought to trial and convicted. If they find a man with a knife in his back face down in the street, it counts as just a "death" until it can be proven it was a "homocide" and somebody is charged with and convicted.

Thus if a woman is raped by a stranger in the UK, or the man is never charged, it never gets counted as a crime. Also if a man robs 10 apartments on 1 flat, they write it off as 1 robbery.

I love how the British gov't keeps their crime rates artificially low.

I love how the British gov't keeps their crime rates artificially low.

*cough* South Africa *cough*

*cough* South Africa *cough*


South Africa, the gov't actually banned the publication of crime stats, so accurate statistics only go back to about 2002. It is estimated by many international groups, that the rape rate is such that 3 million women are raped in South Africa each year. Out of a population of about 50-60 million, 3 million women are raped a year, that is insane, and surely does it anger the Lord.

South Africa, the gov't actually banned the publication of crime stats, so accurate statistics only go back to about 2002. It is estimated by many international groups, that the rape rate is such that 3 million women are raped in South Africa each year. Out of a population of about 50-60 million, 3 million women are raped a year, that is insane, and surely does it anger the Lord.

Glad I don't live there.

While we are on the subject of political dissitent killing, i would like to point out previous killings by the united states governemnt, specificly the bush administration.

Pne woman accusesed bush of rape, and then supposedly committed suicide. With a gun. That she did not have. With an ammunition type only availible to military and SECRET SERVICE (bush gestapo) personal. you add 2 and 2.

While we are on the subject of political dissitent killing, i would like to point out previous killings by the united states governemnt, specificly the bush administration.

Pne woman accusesed bush of rape, and then supposedly committed suicide. With a gun. That she did not have. With an ammunition type only availible to military and SECRET SERVICE (bush gestapo) personal. you add 2 and 2.

Source? Besides, why the hell would Bush want to bother with her? She accused him of rape? I would think if it was a big enough deal to be killed over I would have at least hard of it before...

Source? Besides, why the hell would Bush want to bother with her? She accused him of rape? I would think if it was a big enough deal to be killed over I would have at least hard of it before...

The reason you have not heared much of this is because the bush administration has censored much of that information. Look in the BBC, Al-Jezzera, Air America, DemocracyNow.org, any of the noncensord news sorces,and you will find more information.

This was only one example. There have probablt been THOUSANDS of Bush Gestapo Kilings in the past 8 years. Ask the families, they know....

The crime statistics in the UK are very interesting, it only counts as a crime if the accused is brought to trial and convicted. If they find a man with a knife in his back face down in the street, it counts as just a "death" until it can be proven it was a "homocide" and somebody is charged with and convicted.

Thus if a woman is raped by a stranger in the UK, or the man is never charged, it never gets counted as a crime. Also if a man robs 10 apartments on 1 flat, they write it off as 1 robbery.

I love how the British gov't keeps their crime rates artificially low.

You didn't even check the link, did you? If you had, you'd have seen that what you said is wrong. Those stats include reported crimes, not just convictions. :headbang: