NationStates Jolt Archive

Just to make it clear - I'm not talking about ALL Americans, but the general status of AMerican society.

WHy does America have so much violence?
I was pondering about that for a while, since Moore (to make it short) did some good arquments, that it wasn't (speaking generally) the sheer quantity and reachability of guns, nor TV,. Game and Music influences,... but the American Psyche.

Now, while I agree, that the violent history, the cowboy mentality, everday violence and goverment propaganda creating an atmosfere of paranoia and fear do have a mayor part in this, I believe there is a specific reason, why American society lacks the respect for life, compared to lets say, European Democraties.

What could be so mayor, so wide reaching, that would Impact the mentality about violence for such a large group of people.
What is it, in recent history (last 100 years), that separates AMericans from let's say, Europeans, or Japanese?

I say it's World War I and II.
While America was involved, even greatly, in both World wars, there is a significant fact that could just be, in my opinnion, one of the largest underlying causes of such low esteem for life.

America did not experience the devastating effects of war on their own soil, on their own civil population.
While Europe and other countries were facing the everday horror of outright war, enemy ocupation and everything that goes along with it, the American experience of war was limited to the troops they sent into it and never the general public. While we all thank the soldiers, the general public had infact no idea, what the horror of war means...

That's why countries with first hand experience of war devastation, guns and violence have always second (and third, fourth...) thoughts about using millitary action, why they don't use the term "Collateral damage" and how those horrible images left a scar in the memories of people and their offspring, warning to not let such things happen again.

Probably the single biggest reason for this violence disparity is the war on drugs. That and a large segment of the population who has been brainwashed by their leaders into believing that they cannot succeed by doing things the proper way. So, on the one hand there are people saying no matter what you do legitimately you will not succeed, and on the other there exists an extremely lucrative thing you can do if you are willing to break the law. Bad mix.

It's whats left of a failed attempt to rule by fear... Put me in charge of America, and i'd bring it too it's knees in terror. :mad:

Order can only be truly gained if you scare the people to follow you.

I've just watched Bowling for Columbine by Michael Moore and it was quite disturbing.

I live in England, there's drug dealing going on 1/2 a mile from my home, as well as prostitution. There is a large asian community in my town and there have been several 'race' riots in the past years. These riots were actually drug related but the BNP rallied around them.

I was also burgled a few years ago whilst on holiday.

With all this, do I feel safe in my home? Yes I do.

Do I feel like I need a gun to protect myself? No I don't.

Why? Because the English media and government isn't constantly telling me I'm not safe, I ought to protect myself.

A.not enough sex.more sex=happier people=less violence.
B.LARGE amounts of poor,by definition almost all crime is done by the poor,sadly it IS often the best and most expedient way to improve there lot in life compared to the risks.

A.not enough sex.more sex=happier people=less violence.
B.LARGE amounts of poor,by definition almost all crime is done by the poor,sadly it IS often the best and most expedient way to improve there lot in life compared to the risks.

I'm a 19-year old virgin. Are you saying I want to go out and kill somone? Admittedly I do, but it's not in my nature.

TIN, if you're a 19 year old virgin, you should want to go out and SHAG someone.
Although get consent from them first, it's more polite.

TIN, if you're a 19 year old virgin, you should want to go out and SHAG someone.
Although get consent from them first, it's more polite.
LOL i got no chance. I'm butt ugly, skinny and scrawny, and the girls around here are bitches.

I'm a 19-year old virgin. Are you saying I want to go out and kill somone? Admittedly I do, but it's not in my nature.

and im an 18year old virgin and i study psycholegy.admitedly im a horrible pessimist for human nature.(ie i think everyone is evil)

you should be wanting to get it on,personally i think the goverment should require us to get it on. :p after sex does lead to long life and happiness.

and im an 18year old virgin and i study psycholegy.admitedly im a horrible pessimist for human nature.(ie i think everyone is evil)

Wow... a man of my own heart... ;)

you should be wanting to get it on,personally i think the goverment should require us to get it on. :p after sex does lead to long life and happiness.

heh... amen to that.

lol. Virgins.

:p

lol. Virgins.

:p

get him!

*Burns to death with tripple-powered flamethrower*

get him!
Her. Unless I am very much mistaken.

Her. Unless I am very much mistaken.

I'll give you a sex change then!

I'll give you a sex change then!

*hides under the table and meebles*

Oy Tin, being ugly, skinny and scrawny is no excuse. There's plenty of ugly skinny and scrawny girls about, and they're after sex too.

Why not try improving yourself, I'm completely bald. I went bald in my 20s. But actually a shaved head can look pretty cool.

Especially when you've honed your body into physical perfection as I have.

Get your scrawny arse down the gym.
Buy some nice trendy new clothes.
Get a smart haircut.
And dazzle those lovely ladies with your wit and repartee.

"Why does AMerican society have so much gun crimes, disrespect for life and violence?"

You have such a warped view of the US that it makes me concerned about your ability to sort fact from fiction, reality from delusion. I suggest you focus less on things generated by Hollyweird and more on actual truthful sources.

Get your scrawny arse down the gym.
Buy some nice trendy new clothes.
Get a smart haircut.
And dazzle those lovely ladies with your wit and repartee.

I refuse to change who I am just to get laid. I am what I am.

And you're obviously lazy then.

I'm not saying change WHO you are, just make YOURSELF better!

Learning is improvement.
Fitness is improvement.

Be the best YOU can be, and have fun doing it. It's a reward in itself.

I was pondering about that for a while, since Moore (to make it short) did some good arquments, that it wasn't (speaking generally) the sheer quantity and reachability of guns, nor TV,. Game and Music influences,... but the American Psyche.

...please remember that Michael Moore is in the business of entertainment and lining his pockets, and has a definite bias in his work.

And you're obviously lazy then.

I'm not saying change WHO you are, just make YOURSELF better!

Learning is improvement.

Compared to the rest of my town, i'm a genius.

Fitness is improvement.

Be the best YOU can be, and have fun doing it. It's a reward in itself.

I hate everyone and everything in this town. I'm incredibly fit, and I go for a jog every morning. I don't go to the gym, as I believe that to be costly and a waste of time. I just happen to be cursed with a weedy little body.

I feel fine with my life, but I also feel that the flaws begin with society, not me. There we go.

You have such a warped view of the US that it makes me concerned about your ability to sort fact from fiction, reality from delusion. I suggest you focus less on things generated by Hollyweird and more on actual truthful sources.

As someone who has spent considerable amounts of time in both the U.S. (lived there lo some many years, and still do...) and several European countries and thus has a pretty decent basis for comparison, he's right. Relatively speaking, the U.S. is pretty bad in the categories mentioned.

And for the poster speculating that it was because the U.S. didn't experience WWI and II on their own soil, you might need to account for Canadians in that theory.

TIN, I think you need to leave town then!

Society is people too, maybe you need a change of society. :)

TIN, I think you need to leave town then!

Society is people too, maybe you need a change of society. :)

I plan to move to sweden when I leave home.

I plan to move to sweden when I leave home.

You'd be more than welcome here! :) I'm glad that you stand up for who you are and don't try to change yourself just to impress others. Anyone who wants to be with you just for your looks is not worth bothering with anyway.

I myself don't have the greatest looks either, but that didn't stop me from finding somebody who loves me. It just took a little longer (age 24).

Agreed, attraction on looks alone is dead end, however first appearance counts.

People tend to like people who have a little self respect. This shows in how well they look after themselves, groom themselves and cloth themselves.

If you're fit and healthy people will respect that.
If you're hair is tidy, you've had a wash, your clothes are smart, you smell nice people will think better of you.

This is not changing yourself, it's just showing the world that you have self respect, you are a person worth spending time with, and you respect others.

I'm not naturally good looking, as I said I'm completely bald and that takes a terrible toll on the self image of a 20 somthing year old (as I was then). But you can get past all that with a bit of care and attention.

"Why does AMerican society have so much gun crimes, disrespect for life and violence?"

You have such a warped view of the US that it makes me concerned about your ability to sort fact from fiction, reality from delusion. I suggest you focus less on things generated by Hollyweird and more on actual truthful sources.

Reading this forum alone would be enough to convince anyone that the US society has more gun crime and greater disrespect for life. Look at all the threads on guns, crime etc. here and you'll see recurring themes of American posters saying how many times they've been assaulted/robbed at gunpoint, how terribly unsafe they feel unless they've got a gun... something that the majority of other posters from around the world don't echo quite so readily.

...please remember that Michael Moore is in the business of entertainment and lining his pockets, and has a definite bias in his work.

Michael Moore makes films for a living. And he has opinions. But he doesn't seem to lie.

Can you point to any specific incidences of bias in Bowling for Columbine?

Its truly a media thing. Poor people in other nations i see dont steal and resort to violence as they do in America. Another thing is look who is commiting these crimes. Its disporportionate in crimes commited related to there percentages in the population. Minorities have a huge disporportionate amount of crime then there white conterparts. Again I blame the Left media(Leftist in general) for instigating race type violence. They continually tell these minorities that its not there fault. If Whitie wasnt keeping them down they would all be rich and kings and queens. This may sound stupid. But in a nutshell this is whats going on. Stop the institutional racism and you will see things calm down. As far as the gun thing. Its not guns that kill people. People kill people.
Secondly I lived in the UK for awhile. There is a massive crime problem there. So dont think that there isnt.

I plan to move to sweden when I leave home.

where do you live TIN?

where do you live TIN?
Hastings, East Sussex, UK.

Its truly a media thing. Poor people in other nations i see dont steal and resort to violence as they do in America. Another thing is look who is commiting these crimes. Its disporportionate in crimes commited related to there percentages in the population. Minorities have a huge disporportionate amount of crime then there white conterparts. Again I blame the Left media(Leftist in general) for instigating race type violence. They continually tell these minorities that its not there fault. If Whitie wasnt keeping them down they would all be rich and kings and queens. This may sound stupid. But in a nutshell this is whats going on. Stop the institutional racism and you will see things calm down. As far as the gun thing. Its not guns that kill people. People kill people.
Secondly I lived in the UK for awhile. There is a massive crime problem there. So dont think that there isnt.

The raw crime rate in the UK is slightly higher than it is in the US, but I don't see many UK citizens demanding the right to carry firearms nor expressing the desire to live in a bunker with 15000 rounds of ammunition.

The murder rate in the US is 4 times the murder rate in the UK. I wonder if this is cause or effect of the US right to arm bears.

Bet you wouldn't have guessed that numbers 2, 3, and 4 for crimes per capita are NZ, Finland and Denmark.

Hastings, East Sussex, UK.

small town. bummer. i heartily recommend going to university, probably up north.

small town. bummer. i heartily recommend going to university, probably up north.

I think i'll have to wait a few years-there's no way I can afford university. Besides, The last thing I need is a student loan.

I think i'll have to wait a few years-there's no way I can afford university. Besides, The last thing I need is a student loan.

student loan is no hassle - you don't have to pay it back unless you're earning a living wage, and if you work at your studies, even a skinny geek can get a decent job.

On the other hand, if you work for a few years you can get some experience and so on, and mature students tend to do better at university.

On the other hand, if you work for a few years you can get some experience and so on, and mature students tend to do better at university.

Exactly. I think i'll learn better when I get over my NS addiction.

Exactly. I think i'll learn better when I get over my NS addiction.

yeah, don't want to end up working in a proper job and still spending all day on NS rather than actually working.

yeah, don't want to end up working in a proper job and still spending all day on NS rather than actually working.

No, of course. That would be bad. *coughatworknowcough*

Americans have a high value for life, especially those who oppose abortion or the death penalty, but some think that when a crime is committed, a high crime like first-degree murder, punishment shouldn't be light and the penalty should do its best to deter repeat offenders, hence the death penalty, but the gun crimes and the "culture of violence" likely comes out of one, the culture we live in, the music, the television programming, etc, and poverty, if a person needs something so bad, like drugs or alcohol, and can't afford it, they'll likely commit crimes to get their fix. Like you said in the beginnning post, it's not all Americans, so we're not all gun-toting wackjobs bent on our own destruction.


Stacy Proe

America has guns because it says that we have the right to bear arms in our constitution. The law abiding citizens need to protect themselves from the gun-toting criminals!
:sniper:

However, you have to look at the source of your information, the EVIL DEMOCRAT MICHAEL MOORE. He is known to have many inaccuracies in his "documentary films".

Its not guns that kill people. People kill people.

In the words of Eddie Izzard...

"I know that people kill people, not guns....but you know, I think the gun helps. I don't believe that just standing there and shouting "BOOM! BANG!" at someone is going to kill them unless they're really dodgy on the heart or something."

:eek: :mp5:

I think its especially southern American culture (And no, I don't mean South America, I mean the southern US.) I've noticed that say... Massachussets natives, are generally more 'European' then say.. Texas natives. But I suppose you got them everywhere. Funnily enough, American constitution only supports right to bear arms for 'a well regulated militia'. The militia has long been disbanded though, so I think the American government should just show some balls on this issue and finally take the guns away from the people. You have a police force to protect you against crime. The days of vigilante-style cowboy justice are long over. And sure, the first two generations will whine and bellow. But the grandchildren of the ones whose guns where taken won't give a damn.

Eh, American culture needs alot of changes though. It not only needs to be de-gunned, and it needs to lose its irrational hatred for anything that isn't jungleball style capitalism. In fact, it could stand some criticism of jungleball style capitalism. And it needs to stop thinking its the worlds police agent, since just about no one besides themselves think they should be.

Actually, America just needs to become like Europe, or at least like Canada. The raving 'patriots' will clatter and foam. But things will be better for everyone. The poor will have their healthcare and support and thus shall be less prone to turn to crime, or otherwise spiral out of control. Wacko's can no longer just grab a gun and go on a shooting spree. Drugs related crime will plummet and the middle-class will be better off, both financially and in terms of having spare time to spend with the family or otherwise use as desired. Well maybe it won't be better for the ultra-rich, but they'll still be ultra-rich. And thats more then *I* personally would let them have. I don't think anyone is supposed to have a billion... I mean, I can live with a few millions, but there are limits to my tolerance for capitalism. Even though I'm hardly waving a hammer and sickle around, or think everyone has equal capacities, I think capitalism is still nothing but a neccesary evil, that should not go unrestrained at the cost of other important things, such as... the wellbeing of everyone who isn't wealthy. Or for that matter the biosphere.

Also America needs a stronger seperation of church and state. Honestly, these wealthy 'religious' (christian) people should stop harassing other people already, including but not limited too gays, atheists, muslims and just about anyone who isn't a part of their particular denominations. As if these Conservative Christians follow anything but a mockery of christianity anyway with their capitalist and hate-filled ways. (It may surprise the Bush voters, but the bible is very anti-capitalistic actually. The wealthy appear to be going to hell per default for one. Check out this webpage, this guy bothered to get a large amount of relevant passages http://www.zompist.com/meetthepoor.html )

Hate against christians? Not really.. just that particular brand of christians. In fact, I have good friends who are christian as well, and they have about the same contempt for these people as I have. Why? Because of the biblical reasons I mentioned, and/or because they believe God is love. Now thats the type of christian thats good. Rest assured, they do not consider Bush and ilk to be christians in anything but name.

That said, everyone needs to be able to live as they please as long as they do not harm others, and seperation of church and state is essential to this freedom. And Bush is pretty much running the opposite direction.

America could also stand to half, or at least shave a quarter off, its ridiculously huge military budget. (Which is larger then that of Russia and China combined, and which compared to the combined budget of 'The axis of evil' at its peak, is roughly like... Jupiter is compared to Earth or something, since the entire Axis doesn't even spend a full billion.) The saved money... which would be 200 Billion if half, and 100 Billion if a quarter, could be spent to do just about anything with America you'd want to do. You could set up the best healthcare system in the world and make it nearly free, pretty much eliminate poverty and have plenty to spare to eleminate world hunger if you are so inclined and you'd still have to spare.

You know... maybe I should lead America... Sure, I'm not native born and I'm far to weird to get voted for anyway... But... maybe I should try and invent a von Neumann machine... Armed of course, and form a world conquering army that can't really be nuked because whatever survives will just replicate itself everywhere. Once the world realizes resistance is futile I shall then assume control. Let the worlds people elect advisory councils for each region. Form another set of councils from the scientific community, and let all of these advise a council of loyals who will process all this information for me so that I can properly deal with it.

Then again.. that might be to much work... In fact, if I invented a replicant machine, maybe I should just sell it, and retire to the pacific with a boatload of money... But then again, I'd be ultra-rich then, and thats kind of against my ideals... So I suppose I should invest a vast amount of my fortune to a program to better social situations. But then again, I might better do that if I had used the machine to conquer the world.

Well durn.. guess I won't bother with the machine then. What a dreary day for socialist flavoured mad science.

i always thought it was genetics

the US is made up of a gene pool of people who were "adventurers". they left the only home they knew to come to the US to start all over from scratch

(excluding the native americans, who included some of the fiercest warriors in the world, or those who were "imported" against their will.)

You have such a warped view of the US that it makes me concerned about your ability to sort fact from fiction, reality from delusion. I suggest you focus less on things generated by Hollyweird and more on actual truthful sources.
It isnt neccessarily warped. If i compare the US to Germany, a US citizen is six times more likely to be assaulted, four times more likely to be murdered, has double the propability to be robbed. The rape is three times higher in the US. You can substitute Germany with nearly every western european country and reach the nearly same relations.
I dont call that warped view, but facts. Patriotism might be fine for you, but it shouldnt be a kneejerk automatism to belittle others instead of examining the content of their post for its truth.

America has guns because it says that we have the right to bear arms in our constitution. The law abiding citizens need to protect themselves from the gun-toting criminals!
:sniper:

However, you have to look at the source of your information, the EVIL DEMOCRAT MICHAEL MOORE. He is known to have many inaccuracies in his "documentary films".

Please point out an inaccuracy in "Bowling for Columbine".

Furthermore, pointy sticks are arms (see related thread) so you can satisfy your constitutional rights with a pointy stick, and ditch your guns.

I think America would be a better place if:

we were like all the other countries, like France.
we banned rap music
if it "wasn't cool to be black" a.k.a talk like a dumbass because your too lazy to learn American English!
death metal was made mandatory

true dat!
Peace out
:headbang:

1.There are just as many guns crimes in California as there are in Texas or Oklahoma.

2.I seriously doubt America will change its culture, which in my opinion, is a
good thing, we need our own culture, good, bad, or under construction, not withstanding Canada or Europe, nanny-states, where the people who need the guns for protection are the ones who can't get them legeally, but there'll be crim. And the fact the people hunt for a living or for food, kinda puts a crimp in the "take guns away from everyone" idea.

3.About the bible being anti-capitalist, I don't know, but weren't there a few kings that found favor with God, like oh, say, Solomon, and David, for instance, I doubt God cares how much money we have, rather what we do with it.

4.Oh, and regarding "Bowling for Columbine" the Willie Horton commercial, which was spliced from two different campaign ads, the NRA meeting afer the Columbine shootings, which in reality, was cancelled except for what was required by law, Heston's "Cold Dead Hands" speech, which happened a year later, in Charlotte, NC, so there are some inaccuracies, and some truth stretching in Moore's movies.

Stacy Proe

I think America would be a better place if:

we were like all the other countries, like France.
we banned rap music
if it "wasn't cool to be black" a.k.a talk like a dumbass because your too lazy to learn American English!
death metal was made mandatory

true dat!
Peace out
:headbang:


Hem...You know rap is allowed in France as in any country which grant the right of free speech.
But i agree with you death metal should be mandatory :cool:

So who has seen Bowling for Columbine then? I watched it on Channel 4 the other night.

How about that scary farmer guy with the 44 magnum under his pillow!!!

He's never been burgled or anything and he's just waiting for the next US uprising.

So who has seen Bowling for Columbine then? I watched it on Channel 4 the other night.

How about that scary farmer guy with the 44 magnum under his pillow!!!

He's never been burgled or anything and he's just waiting for the next US uprising.


the michigan militia aren't even mental, they're just regular guys with assault weapons. but hey, remember Michael Moore is biased. He didn't interview any regular guys. So the Michigan Militia must be mental.

I think America would be a better place if:

we were like all the other countries, like France.
we banned rap music
if it "wasn't cool to be black" a.k.a talk like a dumbass because your too lazy to learn American English!
death metal was made mandatory

true dat!
Peace out
:headbang:

is france like all other countries? the french on the whole are pretty proud that it is just like france and not like anywhere else.

in france, as in britain, it is cool to be be black, which doesn't necessarily mean talking like a dumbass. check out Thierry Henri, cool black french man living in the UK.

death metal sucks big logs

there is a general reason we as americans are violent peoiple, our country is only a little over 200 years old and we average a major war every ten years, hence our culture is bound to be filled with violence. Is the answer to ban gun ownership, i would think not. Besides if the criminals have the mindset to use a gun to accomplish their deed, dont you think they would be able to aquire it illegally anyways? Gun control and education is the answer not a flat ban

Proestonia, the UK is far from a nanny state.

What is cultural about allowing people to have semi-automatic fire arms?
Who needs to hunt for food these days?

Hunting is a pastime, a recreation. Hunters use rifles not .44 magnums.
I see nothing wrong with requiring gun licenses (you need a car license right?).
Exotic firearms could be restricted to gun clubs where they are locked away when not in use.
Hunters with licenses should only be allowed rifles and shot guns.

In Bowling for Columbine the NRA guys and militia were all huge, fat arsed layabouts. They need a gun to make themselves feel manly. Take it away an they'd be cowardly, immasculated, sissy men.

long live Cradle of Filth (http://www.cradleoffilth.com)

note to self:
try not to be sarcastic...others may take offense to it
i think ebonics should America's national language, foshizzle

4.Oh, and regarding "Bowling for Columbine" the Willie Horton commercial, which was spliced from two different campaign ads, the NRA meeting afer the Columbine shootings, which in reality, was cancelled except for what was required by law, Heston's "Cold Dead Hands" speech, which happened a year later, in Charlotte, NC, so there are some inaccuracies, and some truth stretching in Moore's movies.

Stacy Proe

there isn't any implication in "bowling for columbine" that charlton heston cold dead hands happened in columbine.

Banning guns only stop law abiding citizens from acquiring guns. I don't think there is a need for semi-automatic, or fully automatic guns. However, if someone makes it, the criminals will get their hands on it.

exerpt from: http://www.annenberg.nwu.edu/pubs/violence/viol3.htm

"If the media shape the public agenda, what shapes the media's agenda? McCombs argues that only about one-third of the stories in the mass media "thrust" themselves onto the agenda because of their objective importance to the public. Natural disasters or other public catastrophes, for example, fall into this category. The rest are there because they fit the conventions of journalism: they fill the need for drama, controversy, or human interest; they come from established and "reliable" sources; or they have been deemed worthy of coverage by The New York Times or The Washington Post. Equally important, the conventions of journalism--the choice of experts, the search for drama, "balance," or controversy--shape the way an issue is framed in the public mind. The mass media tell us not only what to think about, McCombs observes, but also how to think about it."

Banning guns only stop law abiding citizens from acquiring guns. I don't think there is a need for semi-automatic, or fully automatic guns. However, if someone makes it, the criminals will get their hands on it.


It also stops kids from getting their hands on guns, and people who would normally be law abiding but one day get drunk and upset with their neighbour, and lazy or badly connected criminals etc.

In the UK, handguns are illegal. Some criminals have handguns, but not all that many. Burglars and muggers dont generally have them because they dont need them, and householders don't need them because the crims dont have them.

They answered that in Bowling for Colimbine. Its the fact theat the american news scares people thats why we lock the doors and canadians dont.

Now i also think that its because america sues for the stupidest reason and people are afraid to be sued

Just to make it clear - I'm not talking about ALL Americans, but the general status of AMerican society.

WHy does America have so much violence?
I was pondering about that for a while, since Moore (to make it short) did some good arquments, that it wasn't (speaking generally) the sheer quantity and reachability of guns, nor TV,. Game and Music influences,... but the American Psyche.

Now, while I agree, that the violent history, the cowboy mentality, everday violence and goverment propaganda creating an atmosfere of paranoia and fear do have a mayor part in this, I believe there is a specific reason, why American society lacks the respect for life, compared to lets say, European Democraties.

What could be so mayor, so wide reaching, that would Impact the mentality about violence for such a large group of people.
What is it, in recent history (last 100 years), that separates AMericans from let's say, Europeans, or Japanese?

I say it's World War I and II.
While America was involved, even greatly, in both World wars, there is a significant fact that could just be, in my opinnion, one of the largest underlying causes of such low esteem for life.

America did not experience the devastating effects of war on their own soil, on their own civil population.
While Europe and other countries were facing the everday horror of outright war, enemy ocupation and everything that goes along with it, the American experience of war was limited to the troops they sent into it and never the general public. While we all thank the soldiers, the general public had infact no idea, what the horror of war means...

That's why countries with first hand experience of war devastation, guns and violence have always second (and third, fourth...) thoughts about using millitary action, why they don't use the term "Collateral damage" and how those horrible images left a scar in the memories of people and their offspring, warning to not let such things happen again.Interesting point. Me I think it's because America was founded by the Gun. Settlers came in with their guns and the Native Americans never stood a chance, until they got guns of their own. we won our freedom with the gun.

almost every other nation had to use Swords and Bows. Melee weapons where one has to get close and personal, But America used the Gun. Just my opinion.

You guys crack me up.... Let us put things in prespective shall we.. Europe has about the Same Land mass as the United States Mainland, Excluding the Old USSR, they have about the same population.

So here would be America's History from the day my Grandfather was born, If we were like Europe.

1918 Texas would have invaded the Midwest, killing 8,500,000 people, only to be defeated.

1918 Minnisota would have a Civil War killing 800,000

1936 New York State would have had a Revolution killing 350,000

1939 Texas would have invaded Mexico... killing 25,000,000 Mexicians...

1941 Texas would have rounded up every man women and child in Kansas and Missouri and burned them in ovens. 7,000,000 men women and children.

between 1939-1945 Texas would have killed 20 million on American soil.

1943-1949 Flordia would have had a Civil War killing 55,000

1992-1995 Illionios would have killed 200,000 in race wars.

Ok... so if this was American History one would think it sucks...What I have done is Taken European History of War and overlaid it on the same land mass and population of America. Now Granted we have had a little over 1,000,000 murders over the last 100 years.. So come talk to us in 800 years and maybe we will have caught up with you. Or how about this.. try going 230 years and only have one war between yourselfs... Then tell us how we should behave.

FYI here is a breakdown of the murders...

[The US] murder rate is high largely due to the multicultural nature of our society. Inner city blacks, members of a distinct subculture, have a vastly higher criminal and victim homicide rate than our society as an average:

Homicide Offender Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):

3.4 - White
25.8 - Black
3.2 - Other

It is often hypothesized that blacks are overrepresented in murder statistics due to racism on the part of police and the justice system. If this were true, one would expect that the race of victims would have significantly different distribution than the race of the perpetrators, but this is not the case:

Homicide Victim Rate/100,000 by Race in US (2000):

3.3 - White
20.5 - Black
2.7 - Other

Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).

And the problem with Blacks is they are 90% liberal democrats.

Now i also think that its because america sues for the stupidest reason and people are afraid to be sued

I agree

there isn't any implication in "bowling for columbine" that charlton heston cold dead hands happened in columbine.It didn't. Moore's "Bowling" had re-edited clips and presented all of their evidence with the intent to mislead the public.

It didn't. Moore's "Bowling" had re-edited clips and presented all of their evidence with the intent to mislead the public.

Still yet, you can't deny the fact that as Americans, we have a very high crime rate. I know that every single day I hear of shootings in my state. I'm sure where you live isn't any different.

f12 is evil. I am angry.

Anyway how did that guy get texas (germany) to be texas when germany is more closly like minnosota. He also forgot war wasn't one sided raising the numbers, all the american wars they went on for no reason other then the "Dominoe Theory" and to "liberate" them.
Europe doesnt attack innocent drug growing farmers in a foreign country to stop drug trafficiing which they think they can stop (Some europes legalized the drug in bars).
Also on his model thingy, America is much larger then Europe. If germany is about the same size of France, Spain, Portugal, Austria and hungry (when Austria and hungry are combined) that takes 5 minnosota sized states. European Russia would be alaska and california maybe including texas at most.

Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).
Extrapolate all you want, but maybe you should provide correct numbers.
Nationmaster per capita murders, France and Germany being at 1 per 100.000. (http://http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap) Care to show me otherwise and cut down on the propaganda?

Oh geez...

Kisgard, do you really not have any appreciation of what is wrong with trying to cobble together over a dozen different countries into one lump mass and treat their international disputes and conflicts as if they were DOMESTIC problems? And then compare them to another country where you ONLY include domestic issues for comparison while ignoring every international incident it's been involved in in the same time period?

And if that wasn't absurd enough...



Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).

Oh!!!! Well then, if we just pretend a bunch of the murders in the country don't happen all of a sudden we have a low murder rate? Wow! What an amazing thing... I never woulda thunk it.

Gee, thanks for that "perspective" you provided us all with.

Oh geez...

Kisgard, do you really not have any appreciation of what is wrong with trying to cobble together over a dozen different countries into one lump mass and treat their international disputes and conflicts as if they were DOMESTIC problems? And then compare them to another country where you ONLY include domestic issues for comparison while ignoring every international incident it's been involved in in the same time period?

And if that wasn't absurd enough...



Oh!!!! Well then, if we just pretend a bunch of the murders in the country don't happen all of a sudden we have a low murder rate? Wow! What an amazing thing... I never woulda thunk it.

Gee, thanks for that "perspective" you provided us all with.

The third to disagree with him. I say we ignore all of his replies (kisguards)

Now in America we have this thing called Power of Attorny and I was wondering, if we got the president drunk and had him sign over his power of attorny to us would we get to rule America?

The third to disagree with him. I say we ignore all of his replies (kisguards)
No, i like it when they squirm. :D

Several points I'd like to make

1) In Canada there is one gun for every three people. That doesn't mean one in every three people owns a gun, it tends to mean they're concentrated (like a guy I go to meeting with who boasts having six firearms, only three of which are registered, and one of the guns was actually registered with "I don't know" filled in every space....)

2) France isn't exactly a paragon of free expression - recall the snafu over the headscarf, and the lawsuit the government of France filed against Yahoo! over the latter allowing French citizens to view websites related to the Nazis (in France, any Nazi paraphernalia is illegal). Some might regard that as a good thing, banning Nazi related stuff, but hiding information on major events just makes people curious to find out what the hubbub is.

3) I think the majority of the people who I've talked to, who have seen Bowling for Columbine, and take away a certain message are idiots. That message being, because the US has 10 times Canada's population, and 100 times the violent crime rate, that there is some sort of problem in the US, Americans are violent or what have you.

Now I don't even know if Mr Moore makes this claim, I have not seen Bowling for Columbine and I have no interest in doing so. Fahrenheit 9/11 was enough loads of bullshit for me - even without reading what other Ralph Nader supporters disliked about it, without seeing the families Moore abused to make his film, I was able to identify dodgy "journalism".

What I have always come back to the Moore-ites with is this example, from Canada.

My area, Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge has, say, 400,000 people, roughly.
Toronto (Greater Toronto Area), only 100km away, has about 5,000,000 people - or, about 12 and 1/2 times the population.
In KW-Cambridge, there's maybe two or three murders - fatal shootings even - a year. The news makes a huge deal about it. Generally, in this area people tend to die racing through the streets.
In Toronto, there's, what, 60? More?

I would never use such numbers to suggest Toronto has a gun culture or is inherently more violent. To me, what strikes me is not the per capita crime but the overall population.

The US might have 300,000,000 people and Canada only 30,000,000, but Canada has a larger land mass than the US and our population is comparatively spread out - compared to, say, Los Angeles.

If I'm full of crap, which is entirely possible, it would still be interesting to look beyond the NRA, beyond the media, beyond Moore's left-wing bias, and look at those crimes from a different standpoint. Population density, I feel, has a lot to do with crime, and i'm not pulling this out from my days playing SimCity 2000. The rich, the poor, the successful and the failed, mixing together in a giant metropolis (or megalopolis) breeds all sorts of social problems that aren't merely solved by a redistribution of wealth.

I have no answers on how to solve the higher per capita violent crime rate in the US (compared with other nations), but I do know this - banning guns will not solve the problem. One of the NS issues says it best, "if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns." In Canada we have a (somewhat rickety) gun registration program, we try to be tough on firearms, but it just turns out many criminals refuse to tell the authorities they have their guns or where they got them from. A crime of passion, you may find the firearm used was registered - but a deliberate murder, gang-related or otherwise, I think you're just as likely as not to find out the gun was not registered, was stolen and/or smuggled into the country

In conclusion, Michael Moore is a fat, socialist pig, but I have the utmost respect for the man because he's able to successfully mass-market and get rich from peddling trash. He is the ultimate in capitalist success stories.

You guys crack me up.... Let us put things in prespective shall we...

--snipped in the interests of brevity--

Thus if you remove homicides committed by blacks (total: 21862, Blacks:9316), and assume a proportionality between number of offenders and number of offenses, you can extrapolate US homicide offender rate of only 2.6/100,000, lower than Germany (3.27) and France (3.91).

And the problem with Blacks is they are 90% liberal democrats.

You try to compare US deaths to European deaths conveniently ignoring the fact that the US was actively involved in both world wars. :headbang:

You then remove blacks from your figures for no reason, that I can fathom, other than that your figures don't work if you leave them in.

As for your last statement... are you the local grand wizard or something?

And the problem with Blacks is they are 90% liberal democrats.
so if they were conservative republicans with the same crime rate it would be just fine?

Oh geez...

Kisgard, do you really not have any appreciation of what is wrong with trying to cobble together over a dozen different countries into one lump mass and treat their international disputes and conflicts as if they were DOMESTIC problems? And then compare them to another country where you ONLY include domestic issues for comparison while ignoring every international incident it's been involved in in the same time period?

And if that wasn't absurd enough...



Oh!!!! Well then, if we just pretend a bunch of the murders in the country don't happen all of a sudden we have a low murder rate? Wow! What an amazing thing... I never woulda thunk it.

Gee, thanks for that "perspective" you provided us all with.

First, we are dealing with populations learning to get along. When you say a country like Sweden... that is like looking at Houston. Second point... the fact is Euorope has always been riddled with War.. you don't get over your differences... You do not intergrate like America does... as you can see the desparity of the rate of murder comes from one culture. Its not even a race issue... its a political issue. So if Euorpe gives up its Wars... and intergrates the races and culturals... what will you end up with?

I simply posted the facts... to show where the problem lays...Inner cities are where most of the problems are and they are predomonantly Black and Hispanic. So the fact is, the most whites own guns... and the crime rate is very low... but then most whites own legal guns... most gun crimes are done with stolen or illegal weapons. Hence removing the guns from the rest of the people will only leave them defenseless.

But again... America is far more advanced at merging cultures than the EU.. We have done away with WAR and are dealing with a much smaller problem.. murder. Again... Europe murdered 85 million people, no matter how you want to slice it. In fact had it not been for the United States... it would have been far more than 85 million...

You try to compare US deaths to European deaths conveniently ignoring the fact that the US was actively involved in both world wars. :headbang:

You then remove blacks from your figures for no reason, that I can fathom, other than that your figures don't work if you leave them in.

As for your last statement... are you the local grand wizard or something?

I do not ignore the fact that the US was involved in YOUR war. We sacrificed 365,000 Americans bringing it to an end. We went from the 17th largest military in 1939 to the largets in 1942... the last month of WWII we produced more ammunition than Japan did during its whole conflict.

The reason why I removed blacks... is because in Europe you form your own little cultures... and call them countrie :). As far as your little KKK refernce, don't be a fool... There are many great Blacks... but the sad truth is they have sold themselves to the Democrats for welfar which is nothing less than slavery. Try listening the Bill Cosby... he is exactly right.

Further, anyone who references Micheal Moore as a Historian or any thing of credibilty is really should try doing thier own research.. Yes, he made his 100 million bucks allright... and I don't see him donating it to anything. His favorite Charity is himself.

so if they were conservative republicans with the same crime rate it would be just fine?
Actually, if you go back to pre 1960's... before they sold themselves to welfar.. and were Republicans...and they were conservitive... the crime rate was in fact much lower. Its a shame Martin Luther King was murdered :(...he had it right.

First, we are dealing with populations learning to get along. When you say a country like Sweden... that is like looking at Houston. Second point... the fact is Euorope has always been riddled with War.. you don't get over your differences... You do not intergrate like America does... as you can see the desparity of the rate of murder comes from one culture. Its not even a race issue... its a political issue. So if Euorpe gives up its Wars... and intergrates the races and culturals... what will you end up with?

I simply posted the facts... to show where the problem lays...Inner cities are where most of the problems are and they are predomonantly Black and Hispanic. So the fact is, the most whites own guns... and the crime rate is very low... but then most whites own legal guns... most gun crimes are done with stolen or illegal weapons. Hence removing the guns from the rest of the people will only leave them defenseless.

But again... America is far more advanced at merging cultures than the EU.. We have done away with WAR and are dealing with a much smaller problem.. murder. Again... Europe murdered 85 million people, no matter how you want to slice it. In fact had it not been for the United States... it would have been far more than 85 million...

Sweden is like looking at Houston? Eh? What is your point and where is the comparison?

We have been doing quite well at getting over our differences in most of Europe in the last 5 decades. Yes, there have been a few minor relapses, but most of Europe has been conflict free. We can see just how well America has been doing at integrating with the rest of the world, we don't call war integration though. As we've given up on our wars and worked harder at integrating races and cultures we've become more peaceful.

America has done away with war!!! Look at the news outside of what's happening in America. You're involved in Afghanistan & Iraq, and threatening Iran, Syria and N Korea.

The discussion is about murder and deaths during war happen with state sanction, therefore they're not murder in the usual sense. Your argument is hopeless and pointless.

If I'm full of crap, which is entirely possible, it would still be interesting to look beyond the NRA, beyond the media, beyond Moore's left-wing bias, and look at those crimes from a different standpoint. Population density, I feel, has a lot to do with crime, and i'm not pulling this out from my days playing SimCity 2000. The rich, the poor, the successful and the failed, mixing together in a giant metropolis (or megalopolis) breeds all sorts of social problems that aren't merely solved by a redistribution of wealth. Your not full of crap... you have made a lot of good points... Here in Dallas... they have the highest murder rate 6 years running... but then its run by Democrats.. NY City used to be the highest until Rudy took it over as mayor...republican.. and now as a major city is one of the safest. The liberal way of pandering to criminals breeds criminals... just as Europe breeds tyrannts and dictators.

one other thing Micheal Moore is not a fat Socialist pig... he is a VERY RICH FAT Socialist PIG. Go figure how a socialist can get rich? I thought they were supposed to distribute their wealth? OH... thats other peoples wealth.

The reason why I removed blacks... is because in Europe you form your own little cultures... and call them countrie :). As far as your little KKK refernce, don't be a fool... There are many great Blacks... but the sad truth is they have sold themselves to the Democrats for welfar which is nothing less than slavery. Try listening the Bill Cosby... he is exactly right.

The sad thing is that you can't see that because we have far more in the way of welfare states in Europe our poor and dispossessed people generally aren't left so vulnerable as to have to turn to crime and violence just to get the money to survive. We look after people when they're down rather than abandoning them to the streets after a few weeks.

The fact that Bill Cosby reckons the welfare system is terrible is no great surprise, it's more indicative of the amount of money he has and that he has never had a need to rely on it.

But again... America is far more advanced at merging cultures than the EU..

The advanced sense of merging cultures is the removal of blacks and hispanics from national life?

The sad thing is that you can't see that because we have far more in the way of welfare states in Europe our poor and dispossessed people generally aren't left so vulnerable as to have to turn to crime and violence just to get the money to survive. We look after people when they're down rather than abandoning them to the streets after a few weeks.

The fact that Bill Cosby reckons the welfare system is terrible is no great surprise, it's more indicative of the amount of money he has and that he has never had a need to rely on it.

Actually what you can't see is our poor live as well if not better than the average people in Europe. Poor is a relitive term.. the latest studies show that 63% of those listed as poverty owned thier own home which was 1600 sq ft... 80% of them had an automoblie... 43% had two or more automobiles..80% have 2 tv's, microwave, DVD players. No one goes without health care.... thats just a joke... anyone walks into an emergency room and they get treated. In fact if your an illegal alien and you walk in, you still get treated.We spend 1.4 trillion on health care thats $4,600 per person.. compared to Europes average of $1,500 per person. The EU's economy is only 56% of the United States... their GDP/by population. So if we use Europes poverty line as the base, then we only have 1% poverty. So the sad truth for Europe is most of what we count as poverty live as well as the average person in Paris.

No one gets abandoned on the streets unless they are crack heads and refuse help. They live under a bridge because in order to get help you can't bring your drugs into the shelters. Your free to choose, but rehab is free if you sign up for it and can't afford it. But as long as you don't committe a violent crime we won't force you to go to rehab.

My wife moved from Sweden to here in 1999 and now that she knows the difference... sometimes she crys for her friends because they just don't know the truth.

If you become unemployed in the states how many weeks is it before the state stops providing for you?

As for free medical treatment in the US *cough*bullshit*cough*

Actually what you can't see is our poor live as well if not better than the average people in Europe. Poor is a relitive term.. the latest studies show that 63% of those listed as poverty owned thier own home which was 1600 sq ft... 80% of them had an automoblie... 43% had two or more automobiles..80% have 2 tv's, microwave, DVD players. No one goes without health care.... thats just a joke... anyone walks into an emergency room and they get treated. In fact if your an illegal alien and you walk in, you still get treated.We spend 1.4 trillion on health care thats $4,600 per person.. compared to Europes average of $1,500 per person. The EU's economy is only 56% of the United States... their GDP/by population. So if we use Europes poverty line as the base, then we only have 1% poverty. So the sad truth for Europe is most of what we count as poverty live as well as the average person in Paris.

No one gets abandoned on the streets unless they are crack heads and refuse help. They live under a bridge because in order to get help you can't bring your drugs into the shelters. Your free to choose, but rehab is free if you sign up for it and can't afford it. But as long as you don't committe a violent crime we won't force you to go to rehab.

My wife moved from Sweden to here in 1999 and now that she knows the difference... sometimes she crys for her friends because they just don't know the truth.

We're not on about relative affluence we're on about when they have nothing left. You dump these people, we don't...

We spend 1.4 trillion on health care thats $4,600 per person.. compared to Europes average of $1,500 per person.

so what? If i spend 2 million bucks on a chrysler crossfire and you spend 5000 bucks on a chrysler crossfire, we both get a chrysler crossfire. in the US a lot of money goes to making doctors very very wealthy.

The advanced sense of merging cultures is the removal of blacks and hispanics from national life?

Not at all.. we are have merged the two.. Europe has not... French are French... Germans are Germans... Spainards are Spainards... Greeks are Greeks.

We are French, German,Sapanards,Greek, Pols,Swedes,Indians,Russians,Chiness,Ausiess,Philipinoes,Africans,Mexicans,English, and what ever else you want to throw in the pot.. and WE speak ONE laungauge.

We just have some lame liberals still trying to sell a bill of goods to the Blacks... but they are learning... the best thing that can happen is to have Condilessa Rice run for President in 2008... :) you will see a lot of Republicans vote for the First women and Black... and you will see a lot of Democrats vote against her.. uh.... and they call us racist. Go figure that.. FYI Republicans never owned a slave.. they went to war to end slavery... they voted 80% for womes rights.. and 80% for Civil Rights.. Funny how liberals try to re-write history.

so what? If i spend 2 million bucks on a chrysler crossfire and you spend 5000 bucks on a chrysler crossfire, we both get a chrysler crossfire. in the US a lot of money goes to making doctors very very wealthy.

ahh... yes thats true... but then you don't see Americans crossing any border for health care do you? Yet ask a Canadian how many come here for health care? Or how about the 20 Billion we spend on illegal Aliens for free health care? BTW... you think your government spends all the money it collects for health care on health care? NOT... I have never seen a poor Socialist politician. Why is it they want everyone to be equal... except themselves.

We're not on about relative affluence we're on about when they have nothing left. You dump these people, we don't...

When you have nothing left, you ask for help... and you get it. But there are rules...So, here is the deal.. a drug addict wants to be housed... but refuses to give up the drugs while in the house. Do you house him anyway?

If you become unemployed in the states how many weeks is it before the state stops providing for you?
To many in my opinion... getting a job is easy.. I was displaced after 11 years with a company... had a new job in a week. We have an unemployment rate of 5.1%. I had some friends making 180k a year... who were displaced when the Dot Com bubble bursted.. and they can't find a job and complain... Which is BS.... they can make 80K a year... but they don't want to accept it because it beneath them. the fact was the IT arena was over paid because of supply and demand... but now that more people entered into the field.. the entry level is $45,000 a year. And some of those pigs making $180,000 a year living in a 5,000 sq ft house were counted as being poverished... because they could no longer afford thier home.. Tough crap... go to work for $80,000 and still live great..

As for free medical treatment in the US *cough*bullshit*cough*

Its against the law to turn anyone away in the Emergency room... the door is open.... So if you cough to much... feel free to walk in and try it.

ahh... yes thats true... but then you don't see Americans crossing any border for health care do you? Yet ask a Canadian how many come here for health care? Or how about the 20 Billion we spend on illegal Aliens for free health care? BTW... you think your government spends all the money it collects for health care on health care? NOT... I have never seen a poor Socialist politician. Why is it they want everyone to be equal... except themselves.

I've never seen a socialist politician. Nor have I ever seen a socialist advocating poverty. I thought socialists wanted everybody to be rich?

My government doesn't collect money for healthcare, it just collects money, and then spends it.

Its against the law to turn anyone away in the Emergency room... the door is open.... So if you cough to much... feel free to walk in and try it.

free *emergency* healthcare and free healthcare aren't the same thing. try asking for a hip replacement or chaemo in the ER and see what you get.

Kisgard, is it just me, or didnt you aswer my post calling your numbers bullshit?

free *emergency* healthcare and free healthcare aren't the same thing. try asking for a hip replacement or chaemo in the ER and see what you get.

Again, they will not turn you away...people cross the boarder from Mexico and do it all the time. Once you enter the ER.. and you can't afford to pay, you will fill out forms for Federal assistance... Of course they will try to collect later, but if you can't afford to pay, they can't collect and you still get the service. If you can afford to pay, then pay it.

Kisgard, is it just me, or didnt you aswer my post calling your numbers bullshit?


Sorry, I missed your post... Yes Nation master shows it at 1 in 2000...

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/default.asp

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm

I don't think you can pull the info off interpol... I will search for another source

I've never seen a socialist politician. Nor have I ever seen a socialist advocating poverty. I thought socialists wanted everybody to be rich?

My government doesn't collect money for healthcare, it just collects money, and then spends it.

name a socialist country that is rich? The EU has 56% of the United States Economy..

we merely take example from our govt. as to what is right and wrong

so ther for we are holier than thou, gluttonous, murderous, thieves who run up huge debts without regard to our future and those who depend on us.

I find it laughable that nations which have butchered people for being Jews or Freemasons or heretics can turn around and accuse us Americans of being too violent! :sniper: I think that you have fallen victim to the herd morality of which Nietzsche wrote. You're afraid to take action against criminals or protect yourselves because that brings out qualities that you find frightening- qualities of personal self-reliance, individualism, fortitude, austerity, toughness, machismo, etc. These qualities scare the herd once it feels safe enough from external threats to no longer think it needs them, and begins to worry about internal "perils". Read Beyond Good And Evil by Friedrich Nietzsche some time. You'll understand the phenomenon of which I write more clearly. He predicting the softening of the European spine over a century ago.

Kisgard, is it just me, or didnt you aswer my post calling your numbers bullshit?

* Murder. In 1991 the Federal Bundeskriminalamt,
the national organization which compiles crime
statistics, reported a total of 962 murders and
1,746 acts of manslaughter. These numbers exclude
attempts and include both old and new federal
states. This represents 3.4 homicides per 100,000
population. 7

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjger.txt

BS eh?

name a socialist country that is rich? The EU has 56% of the United States Economy..
There are no socialist countries in the EU.

It's the ridiculous gun culture in this country. Kids grow up watching G.I. Joe, and they think that everything is as simple as good guys with big guns versus bad guys who wear funny hats and want to take over the world. Guns this, guns that. I don't have a problem with guns, but I think they're an ignorant thing to sensationalize.

There are no socialist countries in the EU.Slovenia is partly socialist but is reforming to a more market-based economy, last I heard.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/wfbcjger.txt

BS eh?
Yes, exactly that. First, 1991-1992 had an all time high and the population of the ex-GDR wasn taken into account yet. The last years the number of cases were about the same, whith 16 million more inhabitants. Second, the numbers contain murder, manslaughter, rape & robbery with resulting death and assisted suicide, not just first and second degree murder. As well a attempts, which amount to 50% with murder and 75% in case of manslaughter and assisted suicide.
You still try to juggle the numbers in order to make your point. And i still call BS.

Sweden is like looking at Houston? Eh? What is your point and where is the comparison? I guess I should take baby steps for you.

Sweden has about the same population as Houston. When only one person exists... there is no crime against others.. when 2 people exist, there is little chance of crime... its very controlable.. the more people that exist under the laws... the more complex it becomes. So to make an accurate comparrasion, you need about the same population density and the same number of people. Unfortunatly... the United States is the only country to Achieve 300,000,000 million people and have only 1 war in 230 years.

We have been doing quite well at getting over our differences in most of Europe in the last 5 decades. Yes, there have been a few minor relapses, but most of Europe has been conflict free. We can see just how well America has been doing at integrating with the rest of the world, we don't call war integration though. As we've given up on our wars and worked harder at integrating races and cultures we've become more peaceful. Yes, finally when the United States ended the WAR the American Way you finally find a little peace after 1,000's of years of War. The Nazi's did not negotiate peace... they were crushed... nor did Japan negoitiate peace... they were crushed. Yet we do not rule over Germany or Japan. Nor will we rule over Afghanastan or Iraq. Yes, Euorpe has come a long way.

America has done away with war!!! Look at the news outside of what's happening in America. You're involved in Afghanistan & Iraq, and threatening Iran, Syria and N Korea. Yes, we do not go to war against capitalist countries. Capitalist don't really like war... it reduces the number of potential customers. While socialist love war... because it reduces the number of dependents and it leaves a lot of cool property suddenly available for governments. By the way 25 million people got a chance to vote on a form of government... for Afghanastan its the first time in its history.. why does this anger you?


The discussion is about murder and deaths during war happen with state sanction, therefore they're not murder in the usual sense. Your argument is hopeless and pointless.Actually, I am right..under Saddams rule... the would be murderers... got to kill legally. Thus satisfying their lust to kill. When you remove these release valves... there are still freaks out there that lust to kill and it gets counted as murder. So Europe got to kill 85 million people, there was always plenty of killing available for a would be murderer. Look how many flock into Iraq just for the oppertunity to murder.

Yes, exactly that. First, 1991-1992 had an all time high and the population of the ex-GDR wasn taken into account yet. The last years the number of cases were about the same, whith 16 million more inhabitants. Second, the numbers contain murder, manslaughter, rape & robbery with resulting death and assisted suicide, not just first and second degree murder. As well a attempts, which amount to 50% with murder and 75% in case of manslaughter and assisted suicide.
You still try to juggle the numbers in order to make your point. And i still call BS.

First you best read it again... These numbers exclude
attempts and include both old and new federal
states. the word is EXCLUDE not include. Second, in this country assisted suicide is murder , when you commite a crime and kill someone its called murder. So we are looking at apples to apples.

the reason America has more gun crime than most other [if not all] countries, is unbelievably simple: it is easier to acquire guns..........people are just as crazy in most of the world outside USA, but they simply don't have the means to implement their ideas because it isn't as easy

The War on Drugs

There are no socialist countries in the EU.


uh..ohhh Kaayyyy... :rolleyes:

Is there anything the Government doesn't do for you?

Whats your tax rate?

the reason America has more gun crime than most other [if not all] countries, is unbelievably simple: it is easier to acquire guns..........people are just as crazy in most of the world outside USA, but they simply don't have the means to implement their ideas because it isn't as easy

Simply nieve... 3rd world countries that are riddled with War and tyranny have very little murder statistics.. 800,000 Rwanda's killed in 1994 ... were they murdered? How about the Sudan's? Lets face it... if you have tryanny...those that lust to murder... simply get a job as hencemen.

The murder problem in this country is due to Blacks selling themselves back to the Government.. Sister is taken care of... while brother is on his own.

Look... I feel sorrow for how the Blacks are abused by there own people.. Like Jessie Jackson... they guy is corrupt and has made millions by keeping his own people down. If Blacks stood up and got off welfare... Jackson would not have any income. Further we have an illegal immagration problem, 10 million to 15 million ... which is 30% of the crime. We could shut or borders off :) ..

First you best read it again... the word is EXCLUDE not include. Second, in this country assisted suicide is murder , when you commite a crime and kill someone its called murder. So we are looking at apples to apples.
Maybe you would like to take a look at the original source from the german BKA, instead of decade old statistics made in the Netherlands? Here, PDF to download. (http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2003/index2.html)
Btw, European "socialism" anyone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism)

Michael Moore makes films for a living. And he has opinions. But he doesn't seem to lie.

Can you point to any specific incidences of bias in Bowling for Columbine?

That little NRA cartoon!

Look... I feel sorrow for how the Blacks are abused by there own people.. Like Jessie Jackson... they guy is corrupt and has made millions by keeping his own people down. If Blacks stood up and got off welfare... Jackson would not have any income. Further we have an illegal immagration problem, 10 million to 15 million ... which is 30% of the crime. We could shut or borders off :) ..


30% of the crime? Interesting. Could you show me your source for that?

The murder rate in the US is 4 times the murder rate in the UK. I wonder if this is cause or effect of the US right to arm bears.

Bet you wouldn't have guessed that numbers 2, 3, and 4 for crimes per capita are NZ, Finland and Denmark.
I guess you have to look at why those murders are committed...are all of them acts of revenge? Or are they committed during another crime...such as robbery...

In any case...I have a theory about affluent countries and crime, and it has to do with consumerism, but I don't think this is the place for it, although http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=400061 is...

As for free medical treatment in the US *cough*bullshit*cough*

Hospitals must treat you, even if they know you can never pay. It is sort of that oath the doctors take.

free *emergency* healthcare and free healthcare aren't the same thing. try asking for a hip replacement or chaemo in the ER and see what you get.

Cough *Charity Hospitals* Cough

Maybe you would like to take a look at the original source from the german BKA, instead of decade old statistics made in the Netherlands? Here, PDF to download. (http://www.bka.de/pks/pks2003/index2.html)
Btw, European "socialism" anyone? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism)


Thanks for the site... Murder in this country includes negligent homocide. As well as assisted Suicide....we have no law that allows you to assist killing someone. So when you add it up that is 3500 murders in a population of 85 million or...4.11 murders per 100,000.... dang... why do we keep ending up at the same number... compare apples to apples.

Hospitals must treat you, even if they know you can never pay. It is sort of that oath the doctors take.

hehe... well..in fact it is part of the oath of a doctor... but also they get sued... We even have illegal aliens suing hospitals for malpractice.

30% of the crime? Interesting. Could you show me your source for that?

My first hit

http://www.house.gov/cannon/html/crime.html I am being very nice today :)

I will try and find you a national number.

My first hit

http://www.house.gov/cannon/html/crime.html I am being very nice today :)

I will try and find you a national number.

Nice. My friend's a conservative, and he says it's not that he dislikes Mexicans, it's that the illegals coming are the worst kind. I never really had anything to confirm that, and I suppose it's still not altogether true...although I guess there's some truth to it.

Michael Moore makes films for a living. And he has opinions. But he doesn't seem to lie.

Can you point to any specific incidences of bias in Bowling for Columbine?
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/title.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/moorenra.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/dog.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/michigan.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/blindshooter.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/lockheedmartin.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/montage.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/planeplaque.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/canada.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/countries.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/walmart.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/race.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/williehorton.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/cankids.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/clark.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/kayla.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/kmart.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/cultureoffear.htm

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestoninterview.htm

Yes I have too much time on my hands.

Funnily enough, American constitution only supports right to bear arms for 'a well regulated militia'. The militia has long been disbanded though, so I think the American government should just show some balls on this issue and finally take the guns away from the people. You have a police force to protect you against crime. The days of vigilante-style cowboy justice are long over. And sure, the first two generations will whine and bellow. But the grandchildren of the ones whose guns where taken won't give a damn.

Eh, American culture needs alot of changes though. It not only needs to be de-gunned, and it needs to lose its irrational hatred for anything that isn't jungleball style capitalism. In fact, it could stand some criticism of jungleball style capitalism. And it needs to stop thinking its the worlds police agent, since just about no one besides themselves think they should be.

[insert socialist weasel rant here]

[Insert anti-christian rant here, acknowledging the fact that the person would never have an anti-islam rant covering the same points.]

[See above, but add equivocation and a desparate attempt to justify his above statement]

That said, everyone needs to be able to live as they please as long as they do not harm others, and seperation of church and state is essential to this freedom. [Obligatory Bush-bashing sentence]

America could also stand to half, or at least shave a quarter off, its ridiculously huge military budget. (Which is larger then that of Russia and China combined, and which compared to the combined budget of 'The axis of evil' at its peak, is roughly like... Jupiter is compared to Earth or something, since the entire Axis doesn't even spend a full billion.) The saved money... which would be 200 Billion if half, and 100 Billion if a quarter, could be spent to do just about anything with America you'd want to do. You could set up the best healthcare system in the world and make it nearly free, pretty much eliminate poverty and have plenty to spare to eleminate world hunger if you are so inclined and you'd still have to spare.

[Insert two paragraphs and a sentence of whining here]
Actually if you are male and between the ages of 18 and 45 you are the militia. Also, the police do not prevent crime. They don't even have to stop it. All they do is attempt to catch those who have broken the law. This has been evidenced in several court rulings.

Actually, if our capitalism was truly jungleball, you wouldn't have the combined effects of welfare and the drug war, in which case the crime level would probably drop drastically.

...

...

...

Oddly enough, I agree, minus the Bush-bashing.

Actually, assuming we cut the budget like you want, it would barely even begin to cover SocSec, let alone the debacle that is Medicare. Eliminating world hunger is actually quite cheap, if that's all you want to do. It's well withing the EU's capabilities, let alone the US's. However, eliminating world hunger is a rather pointless objective without also creating infrastructure and self-sustaining and healthy economies in the areas where there is hunger. To do this you need a level of stability not found in most of those areas. And you pretty much need at least the threat of force if not the actual application thereof if you want to even begin to attempt to stablize said areas. All of which costs major amounts of capital and the last bit requires military might. Which costs money in and of itself as you were so kind to point out.

so what? If i spend 2 million bucks on a chrysler crossfire and you spend 5000 bucks on a chrysler crossfire, we both get a chrysler crossfire. in the US a lot of money goes to making doctors very very wealthy.
Um, not really. I have several relatives in the medical business, both as nurses and doctors. The doctor's insurance premiums, especially if they want to open their own clinic even in the country, are insanely high.

That little NRA cartoon!
Trey Parker and Matt Stone are pissed at him for that.

Oh!!!! Well then, if we just pretend a bunch of the murders in the country don't happen all of a sudden we have a low murder rate? Wow! What an amazing thing... I never woulda thunk it.
Yeah, and his point is that the crime rate cannot be traced to the presence of GUNS. It has to do mainly with the combination of the War on Drugs, the attitude of black leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and welfare.

The raw crime rate in the UK is slightly higher than it is in the US, but I don't see many UK citizens demanding the right to carry firearms nor expressing the desire to live in a bunker with 15000 rounds of ammunition.

The murder rate in the US is 4 times the murder rate in the UK. I wonder if this is cause or effect of the US right to arm bears.

Bet you wouldn't have guessed that numbers 2, 3, and 4 for crimes per capita are NZ, Finland and Denmark.
Your quote on bunkers is a stereotype to say the least. I never known of anyone to even comes close to that. Heard about someone like that for that matter.
Like I said before. Guns dont kill people. People kill people. If those figures are right on the other nations crime rate per capita. New Zealand has a high indingenous population. Mixed in with Pacific Islanders. Bet most of those crimes were commited against the European pop. Finland with its proxy to Russia. Probably has alot to do with it. Russians for whatever reason have a tendency towards crime. Now the danes. Well no wonder with those beedy little eyes and twitchy hands.

Thanks for the site... Murder in this country includes negligent homocide. As well as assisted Suicide....we have no law that allows you to assist killing someone. So when you add it up that is 3500 murders in a population of 85 million or...4.11 murders per 100,000.... dang... why do we keep ending up at the same number... compare apples to apples.
a) If you take a look at the recent numbers (2003), you will find 829 cases of murder and 1712 cases of manslaughter and assisted suicide. How does that add up to 3500? The pdf clearly showed the cases total at, quote "murder and manslaughter 2,541".
I guess you absolutely want to make your point, but adding round about 1000 cases or 40% to the original number wont help.
b) You conveniently forget the attempts once again. 52.5% of the murders and 75.1 percent of manslaughter cases are attempts. As in "victim not dead".

Speaking from the point of view of the tormented undead: I just hate the living.

Yeah, and his point is that the crime rate cannot be traced to the presence of GUNS. It has to do mainly with the combination of the War on Drugs, the attitude of black leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and welfare.

The question in the topic title clearly refers to gun crimes... so it seems quite relevant to talk about them especially as they're used (murder or not) in so much US crime.

I understand that the war on drugs is a big cause of problems in the US, IMO it's a big waste of time and resources for the whole world causing far more harm than good.

I still don't see how the attitudes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton or welfare are to blame for gun crime, violence and lack of respect for life.

Cough *Charity Hospitals* Cough


Free emergency treatment and charity hospitals do not equate to a comprehensive cradle to grave health care system providing for the needs of all. As was mentioned earlier, if you need something other than emergency treatment you're kinda screwed, unless you're lucky enough to get charity treatment. Long term care for the poor is not something these do and as for the chance to get necessary drugs paid for...

free *emergency* healthcare and free healthcare aren't the same thing. try asking for a hip replacement or chaemo in the ER and see what you get.

If your old or you are poor, medicaid or medicare will pay for you. And they do cover hip replacements and chemo. You are so clueless about the American medical system. What they dont cover is primary care, but that is changing because the govt is figuring out that it is cheaper to pay for check ups and possibly avoid paying for open heart surgery(something else that is covered).

That being said, these 2 programs are probably the most fraud laden programs in the country, and now drug benefits have been added. I can only have nightmares about the fraud that is going to come from that.

a) If you take a look at the recent numbers (2003), you will find 829 cases of murder and 1712 cases of manslaughter and assisted suicide. How does that add up to 3500? The pdf clearly showed the cases total at, quote "murder and manslaughter 2,541".
I guess you absolutely want to make your point, but adding round about 1000 cases or 40% to the original number wont help.
b) You conveniently forget the attempts once again. 52.5% of the murders and 75.1 percent of manslaughter cases are attempts. As in "victim not dead".


Ok, this is going to be real hard... if you can't understand your own report.

homocide by neglegence listed under code 300 is 855.... again... apples to apples..So thats get us to 3,395 ... These numbers do not count attempts. pg 22.

I'll give you a sex change then!
by far the most amusing thing on this thread.

Yeah, and his point is that the crime rate cannot be traced to the presence of GUNS. It has to do mainly with the combination of the War on Drugs, the attitude of black leaders like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and welfare.

There you go... when people think of gun owners... they think of a White guy, yet when you look at the gun crimes... its so out of porportion, where Blacks are far far more violent, and the Hispanics follow right behind them. That the Gun is not the problem... because if it were then White Gun crimes should be in porportion to the Black and Hispanic gun crimes.

But then I don't think its a Race issue either... So if its not Guns... and its not race... what do they have in common? Blacks 8 times more likely to be a criminal than whites.. 90% Democrat... Hispanics 5 times more likely to be a felon 65% Democrat... Whites are 1 time 35% democrats... this is the only thing I have found that links crime to these races.

Just to make it clear - I'm not talking about ALL Americans, but the general status of AMerican society.

WHy does America have so much violence?
I was pondering about that for a while, since Moore (to make it short) did some good arquments, that it wasn't (speaking generally) the sheer quantity and reachability of guns, nor TV,. Game and Music influences,... but the American Psyche.

Now, while I agree, that the violent history, the cowboy mentality, everday violence and goverment propaganda creating an atmosfere of paranoia and fear do have a mayor part in this, I believe there is a specific reason, why American society lacks the respect for life, compared to lets say, European Democraties.

What could be so mayor, so wide reaching, that would Impact the mentality about violence for such a large group of people.
What is it, in recent history (last 100 years), that separates AMericans from let's say, Europeans, or Japanese?

I say it's World War I and II.
While America was involved, even greatly, in both World wars, there is a significant fact that could just be, in my opinnion, one of the largest underlying causes of such low esteem for life.

America did not experience the devastating effects of war on their own soil, on their own civil population.
While Europe and other countries were facing the everday horror of outright war, enemy ocupation and everything that goes along with it, the American experience of war was limited to the troops they sent into it and never the general public. While we all thank the soldiers, the general public had infact no idea, what the horror of war means...

That's why countries with first hand experience of war devastation, guns and violence have always second (and third, fourth...) thoughts about using millitary action, why they don't use the term "Collateral damage" and how those horrible images left a scar in the memories of people and their offspring, warning to not let such things happen again.


makes sence but we did have the civil and revelutionary war so we did experience that even though that was so very long ago. WW2 we lost more men then every other country besides russia so i dont think u can use that.

my stats are a bit off. Britain had a few more then us but that is when u count all the common wealth countrys with it. China lost a good bit too but that was in the war with japan.

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/frame5.htm

Well, perhaps because we have lots of people crammed into little bitty cities, with lots of drugs and alcohol.

my stats are a bit off. Britain had a few more then us but that is when u count all the common wealth countrys with it. China lost a good bit too but that was in the war with japan.

FYI The US lost around 400,000 people in WWII... thats both Fronts...WWII claimed 50 million... However, but I agree that his argument is empty logic.. Europe has never gone without war. What is different is they have never been conqured and had the conquerer leave let the people set up thier own government.

USSR: 20.0M
China: 10.45M
Poland: 5.8M
Germany: 5.5M
India: 2.15M
Japan: 1.9M
Yugoslavia: 1.55M

Here is a good site.

http://cgibin.rcn.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm

Well, perhaps because we have lots of people crammed into little bitty cities, with lots of drugs and alcohol.

Perhaps... however... Why is New York far safer than Dallas? However there was a time when NewYork was far more Dangerious than Dallas.. But one man changed that for New York..

Sorry but the signs do point toward leadership, crime is dirictly related to your political alignment..Why do you think the Democrats have rolled out a plan to try and push for allowing Felons the right to vote. Because they know that 70 to 80% of them would vote Democrat.

I've just watched Bowling for Columbine by Michael Moore and it was quite disturbing.

You should be aware that the movie's "facts" are in many cases made up out of whole cloth. See www.moorewatch.com

Moore is a propagandist, and selling hard. For instance with F-911 his mission was "to create the first film that unseats a sitting president", it was not "to expose the truth".