NationStates Jolt Archive

The Bible states that magick users are evil. Though some of the miracles that Jesus is said to have preformed are well... magical. Which brings me to my point. What is the difference between magick and miracles?

What is the difference between magick and miracles?
"miracle" is spelt right?

Same as the difference between faeries and leprechauns. Different kinds of imaginary stuff.

The Bible states that magick users are evil. Though some of the miracles that Jesus is said to have preformed are well... magical. Which brings me to my point. What is the difference between magick and miracles?

Miracles are god-magic, and Magick is what wiccans think they can do.

Miracles come directly from God and Magic comes from lesser spirits?

Honestly, I don’t know. However, I believe the bible forbids the use of sorcery and witchcraft because the dangers that go along with it.

Mind you, most early grimores dealt with the summoning and binding of spirits to one’s will. Some spirits are quite powerful, and even malevolent, as anyone that studies High Magick can tell you. Ad that with the fact, that possession is possible… let’s just say if I was Christ, I would have forbid it as well. The common follower of ANY faith, including occult based ones, should mess around with forces stronger than themselves.

The Bible states that magick users are evil. Though some of the miracles that Jesus is said to have preformed are well... magical. Which brings me to my point. What is the difference between magick and miracles?

The word magic comes from an old word that means wise. Being wise is forbidden in Christianity, that's why it likens the ideal Christian to a sheep, an animal that escaped classification as a vegetable only by dint of being able to blink.

The word miracle comes from the latin "mirar" meaning "to have no idea," or "to wonder."

If the people who do it can tell the difference between their ass and their elbow with the use of Gray's Anatomy then it's magic, otherwise it's a miracle.

Yes I already knew that. I think what I am trying to get at is the essence. If I ressurect someone, it's sorcery. If Jesus or a saint does the same, it's a miracle (my spelling is horrible I know). How come one person does miracles, where another does magick. Is it possible for both to come from the same person, or in the same way?

or are they both magick, one divine in essence, and the other arcane? If so which one is (for lack of better term) more acceptable, if both do the same thing.

In this example we are using only benign spirits, if such is the way magick is believeed to work. Malevolent spirits are cast into the group of practicioners of Demonology. Which holds no place in this discussion s of yet

Miracles come directly from God and Magic comes from lesser spirits?

Honestly, I don’t know. However, I believe the bible forbids the use of sorcery and witchcraft because the dangers that go along with it.

Mind you, most early grimores dealt with the summoning and binding of spirits to one’s will. Some spirits are quite powerful, and even malevolent, as anyone that studies High Magick can tell you. Ad that with the fact, that possession is possible… let’s just say if I was Christ, I would have forbid it as well. The common follower of ANY faith, including occult based ones, should mess around with forces stronger than themselves.

In the time of the Old Testament people lived in neolithic villages and cheifdoms in which all learning was held by people who had a general title that translated as "person who knows stuff." (shaman, magus, medicine woman, witch etc.) This would include everything from what plants work as medicine and when to plant the crops all the way to what the geneology of the gods is.

Because of the importance of this knowledge even cheifs could not afford to remove them despite the threat that such men posed to their power. So each tribe's chief and its "person who knows stuff" would settle into an uneasy alliance where they would each agree that the other was pretty important.

If people started listening to the "person who knows stuff" from the tribe next door then they didn't know what they'd come home believing. They could be getting told all sorts of stuff like "your chief is an asshole who taxes you to much, ours only takes one pound of wheat in ten" to "your 'person who knows stuff' doesn't know the best time to plant the crops. If you plant them a week earlier they'll get a head start on the other stuff growing and you won't need to do so much weeding."

That's why the Old Testamen forbids listening to them and not killing them. You're only not supposed to kill your witch, but you're supposed to kill your neighboor's witch toot sweet. Even if you can't kill the whole tribe they'll starve pretty quick if they don't know when to plant their crops.

In the time of the Old Testament people lived in neolithic villages and cheifdoms in which all learning was held by people who had a general title that translated as "person who knows stuff." (shaman, magus, medicine woman, witch etc.) This would include everything from what plants work as medicine and when to plant the crops all the way to what the geneology of the gods is.

Because of the importance of this knowledge even cheifs could not afford to remove them despite the threat that such men posed to their power. So each tribe's chief and its "person who knows stuff" would settle into an uneasy alliance where they would each agree that the other was pretty important.

If people started listening to the "person who knows stuff" from the tribe next door then they didn't know what they'd come home believing. They could be getting told all sorts of stuff like "your chief is an asshole who taxes you to much, ours only takes one pound of wheat in ten" to "your 'person who knows stuff' doesn't know the best time to plant the crops. If you plant them a week earlier they'll get a head start on the other stuff growing and you won't need to do so much weeding."

That's why the Old Testamen forbids listening to them and not killing them. You're only not supposed to kill your witch, but you're supposed to kill your neighboor's witch toot sweet. Even if you can't kill the whole tribe they'll starve pretty quick if they don't know when to plant their crops.

so killing other people's "people who know stuff" was a way of population control? and weeding out heathens?

The common follower of ANY faith, including occult based ones, should mess around with forces stronger than themselves.
Doesnt sound like good advice to me. ;)

"miracle" is spelt right?


And it's spelled correctly as well.
:p

Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

so killing other people's "people who know stuff" was a way of population control? and weeding out heathens?

That and it's just a sound military strategy. Keep your own people listening to you and make sure that the neighboors don't have anyone to organize them.

This went on before reading and writing, so if the only person who knows anything gets killed then huge amounts of their culture will be gone forever. The modern equivilant would be book burnings and campaigns to get professors fired when they say things you don't like. But the effectivness of killing the medicine man will never be the same again. Frankly the passage should be marked as obsolete. Along with many others.

haha good point. too bad its not so easy anymore

In the time of the Old Testament people lived in neolithic villages and cheifdoms

Er, I think the book of Exodus starts at about 1200 BC. That's late, late bronze age. By the end of the Old Testament it's already nearing the end of the Hellenistic period and Rome is about to take over the area. Things change a lot in 8000 years, don't they? The Hebrews certainly were fully influenced by the cultures around them if you're trying to imply that they weren't.

Um, where exactly does it condemn magic? I know it supposedly condemns witches but I believe that was a mistranslation from poisoner.

The word magic comes from an old word that means wise. Being wise is forbidden in Christianity, that's why it likens the ideal Christian to a sheep, an animal that escaped classification as a vegetable only by dint of being able to blink.

The word miracle comes from the latin "mirar" meaning "to have no idea," or "to wonder."

If the people who do it can tell the difference between their ass and their elbow with the use of Gray's Anatomy then it's magic, otherwise it's a miracle.
Well done! You, an asshole, have now reminded me why it is that I like to fight so much. Since you have no clue what you are talking about, and people that were not christians were likened to goats, which are no more intelligent than sheep, perhaps you should take your ignorance and pathetic reasoning out of forums where most people at least attempt to be moderately intelligent, and rejoin the real world where people lost teeth for acting in such a manner.

By the way, we all know you don't talk like that in real life. Twelve year olds with big mouths don't last long where I'm from. Guess you feel real brave in the anonymity of the internet, dontcha?

Um, where exactly does it condemn magic? I know it supposedly condemns witches but I believe that was a mistranslation from poisoner.

I forget the exact passage, but it reads something in essence of, soddomites, magick, and users of magick are evil.... in a later passage its reads thou shalt not suffer a witch to live .... which is believed to have been changed by the medieval catholic church from evil doer.

i asked a preacher friend of mine and he said that the Bible equates magick use with satan, though subtly

You lost me at "the bible states..." part.

You lost me at "the bible states..." part.
see above post

And it's spelled correctly as well.
:p
damn you!

damn you all!

By the way, we all know you don't talk like that in real life. Twelve year olds with big mouths don't last long where I'm from. Guess you feel real brave in the anonymity of the internet, dontcha?

relax, it was midly amusing. you're much to uptight and if you cannot take a jab at a religion, (yours or not) then you obviously lack the intellectual medium necessary to carry on a serious discourse and are liken to that of a 3 year old who's toy has been stolen.. relax and enjoy life, especially words of all sorts and take them as they are, intangible entertainment and the oldest and most useful meduim we have of expressing ourselves....

see above post

For what? I understood what you said, but you lost my interest after the first four words.

For what? I understood what you said, but you lost my interest after the first four words.
I see pardon my confusion. I was just curious what separated the good magick (miracles) from the bad magick (sorcery) in the minds of those who wrote afore mentioned book. I personally hold the Bible as hokey, but respect other people's beliefs and find the book to be amusing and possibly one of the better reads for anyone who enjoys alot of violence and a lot of sex in their literature

Since you have no clue what you are talking about, and people that were not christians were likened to goats, which are no more intelligent than sheep,

Lack of intelligence was not the goat-like trait that Christians wished to connect to non-Christians, but rather their independence. Sheep huddle together and a person can lead all them fairly easily by supplanting the dominant sheep.

Goats are much more comfortable walking off by themselves. Among people that means that goat-like people are much more comfortable thinking for themselves relative to sheep like people who will think whatever they're told to.

perhaps you should take your ignorance and pathetic reasoning out of forums where most people at least attempt to be moderately intelligent, and rejoin the real world where people lost teeth for acting in such a manner.

I act in such a manner all the time, and most people are perfectly capable of responding with jokes of their own. Just last night a conservative and I spent hours ribbing each other about the percieved foolishness of our respective political positions.

Well done! You, an asshole, have now reminded me why it is that I like to fight so much...By the way, we all know you don't talk like that in real life. Twelve year olds with big mouths don't last long where I'm from. Guess you feel real brave in the anonymity of the internet, dontcha?

The reason you like to fight so much is that you have anger managment problems. Unless your actual name is Hades, which I doubt, you lave little ground on which to criticize me for posting my opinion on a public forum.

Since you are unable to defend your position with words, and I never back down from a challenge, if you're going to be in New York any time soon please tell me where an when and I'll happily meet any violent challenge you care to offer. You don't seem to understand how to share opinions verbally so I guess you're the kind of person who only understands reason when it's beaten into you.

Since you are unable to defend your position with words, and I never back down from a challenge, if you're going to be in New York any time soon please tell me where an when and I'll happily meet any violent challenge you care to offer. You don't seem to understand how to share opinions verbally so I guess you're the kind of person who only understands reason when it's beaten into you.

ill sell tickets

Er, I think the book of Exodus starts at about 1200 BC. That's late, late bronze age. By the end of the Old Testament it's already nearing the end of the Hellenistic period and Rome is about to take over the area. Things change a lot in 8000 years, don't they? The Hebrews certainly were fully influenced by the cultures around them if you're trying to imply that they weren't.

I never meant to imply that they didn't absorb influence from (and contribute it to) more heavily civilized (only meant in the strictest sense of living in big cities) but rather that their traditions got started in the way that all cultures' traditions got started. Whenever the stories of the Old Testamen were written down they all came from ancient oral histories.

The fact that we still have people criticizing psychics on Biblical grounds in our society should show that I don't mean to call the Hebrews an especially backward tribe merely that they had hit upon a successful strategy that they kept using simply because it worked.

Most of the advances in human history (agriculture, disease immunity, firearms) became advances only because their use was continually tested, when they weren't they fell back to old ways, like not suffering witches to live.

Well done! You, an asshole, have now reminded me why it is that I like to fight so much. Since you have no clue what you are talking about, and people that were not christians were likened to goats, which are no more intelligent than sheep, perhaps you should take your ignorance and pathetic reasoning out of forums where most people at least attempt to be moderately intelligent, and rejoin the real world where people lost teeth for acting in such a manner.

By the way, we all know you don't talk like that in real life. Twelve year olds with big mouths don't last long where I'm from. Guess you feel real brave in the anonymity of the internet, dontcha?

Are you one of these blindly ignorant and fierce American Christians? Bush Jr. is a Christian..........IMO, Christianity is not the caring and kind religion most people think, why do you think most of America's Presidents have been Christian? It is founded on bloodshed and the persecution of anyone who thinks different or has a differnet culture to you.

He was just voicing his opinion, this is the beaty of online forums, you do not need to worry about people oafishly knocking your teeth out and therefore you do not need to supress anything.

The word magic comes from an old word that means wise. Being wise is forbidden in Christianity, that's why it likens the ideal Christian to a sheep, an animal that escaped classification as a vegetable only by dint of being able to blink.

The word miracle comes from the latin "mirar" meaning "to have no idea," or "to wonder."

If the people who do it can tell the difference between their ass and their elbow with the use of Gray's Anatomy then it's magic, otherwise it's a miracle.
That's it in a nutshell. Magicians know how they do their stuff, miracle workers don't. Knowing is deemed "bad" in religious circles, because it puts the doer in control with complete responsibility for their own actions, rather than being able to credit a god for it.

Miracles come from God. Magick comes from elsewhere. Its pretty simple really.

That's it in a nutshell. Magicians know how they do their stuff, miracle workers don't. Knowing is deemed "bad" in religious circles, because it puts the doer in control with complete responsibility for their own actions, rather than being able to credit a god for it.


hmm I think that answers my query. Thank you

If the Emperor of Terra Zetegenia remembers correctly, the difference between the two is the source. Miracles are divine intervention - God directly grants the power to perform a miracle to the one who performs it. Magic, with a c, by the way, comes from a different source - perhaps a demon, perhaps from one's own will. Either way, magic does not serve God, and has the potential to be used for evil. Most everyone who believes in it also believes that it is dangerous when used foolishly, whereas miracles have an omniscient entity behind them, and therefore cannot be used foolishly.

The word magic comes from an old word that means wise. Being wise is forbidden in Christianity, that's why it likens the ideal Christian to a sheep, an animal that escaped classification as a vegetable only by dint of being able to blink.

The word miracle comes from the latin "mirar" meaning "to have no idea," or "to wonder."

If the people who do it can tell the difference between their ass and their elbow with the use of Gray's Anatomy then it's magic, otherwise it's a miracle.


Congratulations on calling 1 billion people stupid with no objective proof to back it up. I'm pretty impressed. Actually, Proverbs has a lot to say about wisdom, you might try reading it.

That's it in a nutshell. Magicians know how they do their stuff, miracle workers don't. Knowing is deemed "bad" in religious circles, because it puts the doer in control with complete responsibility for their own actions, rather than being able to credit a god for it.

Sorcerers really can't take credit for their magic either. When someone performs some kind of sign or spell in witchcraft, they are really asking some demon somewhere to do it for them to impress / influence / affect someone or some process.

Miracles happen when someone asks God to do something or affect someone.
I personally believe that since God is good, any miracle He performs must be good. Conversely witchcraft and whatever forces bring it about must be evil.
I'm praying for a miracle right now because a lot of hard-headed people are going to read this post and dislike me for it. But them's the breaks.

Congratulations on calling 1 billion people stupid with no objective proof to back it up. I'm pretty impressed. Actually, Proverbs has a lot to say about wisdom, you might try reading it.

That's the thing about the Bible. Whatever you find in it anywhere you can find something else that says the opposite. I believe the rule of thumb is that if NT says the opposite of OT then NT takes presidence?

Try reading Paul's Letter to the Corrinthians. It also has a lot to say about wisdom. Namely that it's bad and that if you learn stuff and tell it to other people God will intervene to make those things appear untrue and the wise person to appear to be the more foolish.

Like when the weatherman says that it's going to be sunny and then God goes and makes it rain to punish you for putting your faith in the weatherman and washing your car.

BTW, most Christians don't hold that strictly to Christian dogma. I have yet to meet a Catholic who believes that the Pope is literally incapable of saying anything wrong when he is sitting on his papal throne for example.

Sorcerers really can't take credit for their magic either. When someone performs some kind of sign or spell in witchcraft, they are really asking some demon somewhere to do it for them to impress / influence / affect someone or some process.

Well think about when it was written. "Sorcerers" were just people who's job it was to keep track of information. Which seeds make the plants you can eat as food. Which plant is good for relieving a cold, what time of year do you plant the crops so that they'll grow before the weather turns cold.

I recommend a book called "the Innocent Anthropologist." In it an English anthropologist studying a tribe called the Dowayo was very keen to see the rain-making ritual, and the rain-maker said that that would be fine. So he went to see the rain maker, who wasn't there. He made an appointment to see the rain maker a week later, when he got there the rain maker was away on business again. A few weeks later the rain maker sent someone to fetch the "the Dowayo's White Man" and the anthropologist finally got to meet the rain maker. The ritual consisted of taking a bunch of stones out of a bucket and putting them on the floor. He then told the anthropologist that it would rain by the time he got home. It started raining before the Englishman came down the mountain.

Clearly the rain man new damn well what he was doing. He paid attention to the local annual climate and when it was time for rain to start he would tell the villagers that it was time to plant their crops. He was ducking out of all previous appointments because he knew that it wasn't going to rain.

Miracles happen when someone asks God to do something or affect someone.
I personally believe that since God is good, any miracle He performs must be good. Conversely witchcraft and whatever forces bring it about must be evil.
I'm praying for a miracle right now because a lot of hard-headed people are going to read this post and dislike me for it. But them's the breaks.

Right, and if you listen to Christian Pundits like Pat Robertson, miracles that Christians pray for are miracles, miracles that Hindus and Muslims pray for are demonic magic.

Personally I think that if you can get any sort of spirit being to intervene as you ask then you're getting a miracle, whatever you care to call that spirit. If you've come up with a way to get them to actually listen to make something happen more often than statistics indicate it should, well then you're doing magic. Regardless of whether that spirit is Christ, Jehova, or Thor.

In my opinion, as a believer in god... or... something that a miracle is a higher power, benign or malevolent acting through someone, in the same way that we use a computer to write these posts and our modems to access them, in order to achieve their own goals.

Whereas magic or magik or magick (all are correct actually, it depends on the culture and what category of magicka it falls under) is the actions of a single being, one who is aware of their abilities and is able to see beyond the corporeal world, if you understand my meaning, and is capable of bending the non-corporeal elements around us in a manner which effect the tangible, corporeal world.

Miracles are neither good nor evil.
Magick is neither good nor evil.

It depends entirely on the alignment of the wielder whether the effect is one of good or evil (e.g. a gun in the hands of one who uses it to save lives and incapacitate those who mean harm is a force of good, one in the hands of one who intends to murder is a force of evil, whether the gun is American or Iraqi has no effect on the alignment of the weapon)

And since we're loosely on the subject of religion here, there's an important point to be made - unquestioning belief in ANYTHING is a terrible thing, you listen to those around you, absorb ideas into your own, adjust your view of the world as circumstances and knownledge dictate, if you take only what you are taught in school and church then your view of the world is incomplete and polluted and your judgement is impaired, therefore you are far more vulnerable to the evil in the world. Open your mind to all that you can and you can avoid evil and keep it from harming you or ruling your life.


I hope I've put my point across clearly and made only the devout christians hate me.

I hope I've put my point across clearly and made only the devout christians hate me.

Filled me with mirth that last line. Good explanation too, thank you. I'm exstatic that someone finally sees that both are neutral and the intentions/ alignment of the wielder affect the alignment of said extraordinary act, not the source of said act.