NationStates Jolt Archive

Main Entry: big·ot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

We are not doubt very familiar with the assorted racists and bigots on this forum (no need to name them), and no doubt well acquainted with the more common targets of bigotry (race, immigration, sexuality, gender and so on).

However, how well acquainted are you with your own particular bigotry? What topics do you approach with a less than open mind? Are you able to recognise that you are biased negatively towards certain issues? Let's clean out those dark corners of the human soul and be honest...

What are the biases you can not push aside...the biases that make you a bigot...?

I for one, admit to being bigoted towards racists and homophobes. I may listen to their arguments, but I know there is no chance I will actually push my prejudices aside to accept anything they have to say about race or sexuality. Therefore, any conversation I have with them is not intended to discuss their beliefs, but rather to change them.

Wow...honesty is kind of icky...

I think I know what inspired this thread.

Hmmm I don't think I'm bigotted, but just plain stubborn

I for one, admit to being bigoted towards racists and homophobes. I may listen to their arguments, but I know there is no chance I will actually push my prejudices aside to accept anything they have to say about race or sexuality. Therefore, any conversation I have with them is not intended to discuss their beliefs, but rather to change them.

Wow...honesty is kind of icky...
i'd agree with all of that. Being the son of a gay man, and the boyfriend of a black woman, i'm rather sensitive to both.

If I may, I have preset ideas about the rich. I more often than not assume that they were born into wealth, and really don't deserve it.

There are plenty of cases of this, but I am certain that there are people who actually WORKED into their wealth.

So in that sense...I suppose I am bigoted.

I'm bigoted against people with closed minds, which makes me very slightly hypocritical. But seriously, people who refuse to see differences get on my nerves majorly. Aside from that, I don't approach any topic with a closed mind, there have been several times, even on this forum where opinions seem unchangeable, I tend to be able to refine or radically change my view on something. Of course, people who then say that that's not a sign of strong will also get on my nerves.

Also people that think that video games can't have a strong plot. But that's more just an annoyance at people who sideline different mediums on general principle.

I think I know what inspired this thread.
Could it be all the bigoted threads lately?

I'm trying to open my heart to all by admiting my own faults...

It's hard...but I'm trying...

I for one, admit to being bigoted towards racists and homophobes. I may listen to their arguments, but I know there is no chance I will actually push my prejudices aside to accept anything they have to say about race or sexuality. Therefore, any conversation I have with them is not intended to discuss their beliefs, but rather to change them.

Wow...honesty is kind of icky...

But that's not really a sign of bigotry... if someone doesn't convince you of something, and you don't accept their views as correct... that doesn't make you bigoted against them. I suppose by the precise terms of the dictionary it is... but isn't language supposed to serve us, and not the other way round?

if that's the definition, then i must be a bigot because i'm biased against racists and homophobes.

Hmm.

I have a thing against assholes.

It's hard to admit everyone's a hypocrite.

I'm very bigotted, especially over things that concern my tastes in things like Music, Film etc.

Well not quite true, I'm fairly open minded in terms of those things but am very bigotted against certain things such as Big Brother, The Sun, The Beautiful South etc,

I for one, admit to being bigoted towards racists and homophobes. I may listen to their arguments, but I know there is no chance I will actually push my prejudices aside to accept anything they have to say about race or sexuality. Therefore, any conversation I have with them is not intended to discuss their beliefs, but rather to change them.

Wow...honesty is kind of icky...

I'm pretty bigotted about most of the things I believe, on the basis of that definition. My beliefs can be changed, but it takes a huge weight of evidence or dramatic personal experience for the most part. Of course, that is probably true of just about anyone with a backbone.

We are not doubt very familiar with the assorted racists and bigots on this forum (no need to name them), and no doubt well acquainted with the more common targets of bigotry (race, immigration, sexuality, gender and so on).

However, how well acquainted are you with your own particular bigotry? What topics do you approach with a less than open mind? Are you able to recognise that you are biased negatively towards certain issues? Let's clean out those dark corners of the human soul and be honest...

What are the biases you can not push aside...the biases that make you a bigot...?


To be honest, I think I must posess a certain amount of anti-christian bigotry. I think God would have to come and personally slap me in the face, before I'd be willing to consider anything in support of that religion ever again. I don't hate christians, or anything, but I'm not open minded towards the possibility of christianity containing any truth anymore.

i'd say i hate christians and some other religious people. pretty much anything else is fine.

It's hard to admit everyone's a hypocrite.
It's easy to point out that you're a hypocrite.

It's harder to observe that everyone's a hypocrite.

It's a lot harder to admit that I'm a hypocrite.



Jesus Christ still loves us, though . . .

:D

I don't want anyone to confuse bias with bigotry...you may have a particular bias (ie, you don't like the death penalty), but you may still be able to push aside your bias to see the 'other side'. That means you consider their arguments and evaluate them according to your belief system. Bias in this case must be a component of your decision making.

Bigotry, however, is when you have a set of preconceived notions (racism is bad) that you are unable, or unwilling to put aside in order to consider the arguments or rationale of others. That is why I mentioned race and sexuality...these are two areas I am unable to put aside my own biases in order to 'see the other side'. Now, I can talk about race and sexuality on scientific or emotional or whatever terms, but I can not discuss racism or homophobia (sexism) in a manner that allows me to consider the arguments of racists, homophobes, or sexists as possible alternatives to my own way of thinking.

I'm biased against racists, homophobes, religious fundamentalists and stupid people. Too bad. :gundge:

We are not doubt very familiar with the assorted racists and bigots on this forum (no need to name them), and no doubt well acquainted with the more common targets of bigotry (race, immigration, sexuality, gender and so on).

However, how well acquainted are you with your own particular bigotry? What topics do you approach with a less than open mind? Are you able to recognise that you are biased negatively towards certain issues? Let's clean out those dark corners of the human soul and be honest...

What are the biases you can not push aside...the biases that make you a bigot...?
i am extremely dedicated to my personal values and perspective on life (since those are the things which define me as an individual), but i am certainly not intollerant in my devotion. on the contrary, i typically spend more of my time defending the freedom of speech of people i disagree with than i spend defending my own freedom of speech :).

I'm biased against racists, homophobes, religious fundamentalists and stupid people. Too bad. :gundge:
Stupid people too?

Isn't that a little broad? Do you mean people of low intelligence, or those that don't act in a manner you agree with?

Stupid can mean so many things...

I'm bigoted against muslims. I think most of them support terrorism against non-muslims. I don't think most of them are terrorists, but I do beleive that most of them make excuses for terrorists.

i am extremely dedicated to my personal values and perspective on life (since those are the things which define me as an individual), but i am certainly not intollerant in my devotion. on the contrary, i typically spend more of my time defending the freedom of speech of people i disagree with than i spend defending my own freedom of speech :).
Ah, but defending freedom of speech does not mean you are not intolerant towards the beliefs being espoused...

For example...I can consider the points made by anti-abortionists as valid to some extent, but I still support abortion as a choice.

I can not, however, consider the points made by a racist as valid in any way. I will listen to those points, but I will never evaluate them.

I'm bigoted against muslims. I think most of them support terrorism against non-muslims. I don't think most of them are terrorists, but I do beleive that most of them make excuses for terrorists.
This leads me to my next question...

Now that some of us have been open about our bigotry, do we want to deal with that bigotry, or are we fine with it as is?

Now that I can admit to myself that I am bigoted against racists, do I want to break down that bigotry in order to take their arguments into serious consideration?

In order to do that, we have to see what our bigotry is based in...

Then we have to decide if that bigotry gels with our belief system...

Then we need to evaluate whether or not we want to change that bigotry...

The hardest part, of course, would be actively working to rid ourselves of our particular intolerances...

I don't think I'm willing to do that, to be honest...

I am a bigot to those whom take it upon themselves to tell me that my lifestyle is wrong.

Yes, I am unfortunately for them if we ever meet in a back alley on a dark night bigoted against rapists, child molesters, abusers, and NAMBLA members. Oh, and also Michael Moore.

I don't want anyone to confuse bias with bigotry...you may have a particular bias (ie, you don't like the death penalty), but you may still be able to push aside your bias to see the 'other side'. That means you consider their arguments and evaluate them according to your belief system. Bias in this case must be a component of your decision making.

Bigotry, however, is when you have a set of preconceived notions (racism is bad) that you are unable, or unwilling to put aside in order to consider the arguments or rationale of others. That is why I mentioned race and sexuality...these are two areas I am unable to put aside my own biases in order to 'see the other side'. Now, I can talk about race and sexuality on scientific or emotional or whatever terms, but I can not discuss racism or homophobia (sexism) in a manner that allows me to consider the arguments of racists, homophobes, or sexists as possible alternatives to my own way of thinking.

In that case, I guess I'm not a bigot. I am able to consider most any idea and its pros and cons, but the likelihood of my mind being changed as to my personal position on a given subject is relatively small. Whatever you want to call that is fine with me. ;) :)

I can not, however, consider the points made by a racist as valid in any way. I will listen to those points, but I will never evaluate them.

Why not, there are some pretty major pros for being racist, at least if you're in the majority or hold power. Granted exercising power from a racist perspective is morally unconscionable, but it isn't like there aren't both positives and negatives to either side of the subject.

Why not, there are some pretty major pros for being racist, at least if you're in the majority or hold power. Granted exercising power from a racist perspective is morally unconscionable, but it isn't like there aren't both positives and negatives to either side of the subject.
Perhaps...but from my particular standpoint, I could never see any "positives" to racism. (Other than racists probably wouldn't be able to bring themselves to hang around me, ridding me of their presence) I don't doubt that there can be some "major pros" for the on top group (since I recognise that not only whites suffer from the affliction of racism), but that doesn't mean I would be able to hear their arguments with any tolerance or evaluative purpose.

My opinion is this:

Racism bad. Period. No exceptions. No tolerance.

That is why I consider myself a bigot in this sense.

Ah, but defending freedom of speech does not mean you are not intolerant towards the beliefs being espoused...

i tolerate views i do not agree with. indeed, i encourage people to disagree with me, and i seek out place and groups where there will be people to disagree with me.

i may not LIKE somebody's views, but it is not necessary to like or agree with something in order to tolerate it.

For example...I can consider the points made by anti-abortionists as valid to some extent, but I still support abortion as a choice.

I can not, however, consider the points made by a racist as valid in any way. I will listen to those points, but I will never evaluate them.
whether or not you consider their points valid does not determine whether you are being tolerant of them or not.

remember: you can argue yourself blue in the face against a particular idea, and that does NOT necessarily mean you are being intollerant toward that idea.

Stupid people too?

Isn't that a little broad? Do you mean people of low intelligence, or those that don't act in a manner you agree with?

Stupid can mean so many things...

The first three all qualify. I mean people who are so hard headed that not even the most logical, rational or reasonable arguement makes a dent in what they believe. Perhaps that is more descriptive of fools. Though people of low intelligence annoy me, at least they have the excuse that they can't help it.

This leads me to my next question...

Now that some of us have been open about our bigotry, do we want to deal with that bigotry, or are we fine with it as is?

Now that I can admit to myself that I am bigoted against racists, do I want to break down that bigotry in order to take their arguments into serious consideration?

In order to do that, we have to see what our bigotry is based in...

Then we have to decide if that bigotry gels with our belief system...

Then we need to evaluate whether or not we want to change that bigotry...

The hardest part, of course, would be actively working to rid ourselves of our particular intolerances...

I don't think I'm willing to do that, to be honest...
This is a very interesting point, Sinuhue.

I don't believe that it's a virtue to be open-minded if that just means that you agree with everyone you speak to (see the bloke in the "Fast Show" sketches down the pub for a U.K. example of this).
I also don't believe the solution is to decide not to have an opinion on anything.

The tricky point is that if one of my fundamental beliefs clashes with one of someone else's fundamental beliefs, neither of us will want to back down to concede the other's points, as that would involve the "loser" changing his/her entire belief system to accommodate the new belief.

I have various biases. Some I've picked up from my parents/friends/society and either not noticed yet or not dealt with yet. But others spring from my Christian conversion experience 5 years ago, and my subsequent interaction with God since then. I see these in a different light to the ones I developed in childhood, 'cause I think some of them are based on objective, absolute truth from the Almighty, but separating that kind of bias from other "church" biases I've also picked up in the last five years is also difficult.

This leads me to my next question...

Now that some of us have been open about our bigotry, do we want to deal with that bigotry, or are we fine with it as is?

Now that I can admit to myself that I am bigoted against racists, do I want to break down that bigotry in order to take their arguments into serious consideration?

In order to do that, we have to see what our bigotry is based in...

Then we have to decide if that bigotry gels with our belief system...

Then we need to evaluate whether or not we want to change that bigotry...

The hardest part, of course, would be actively working to rid ourselves of our particular intolerances...

I don't think I'm willing to do that, to be honest...
I'm fine with my bigotry for now. Please note that I don't go around picking fights with muslims, or refuse to do business with them. I'm just suspicious of them. Until I see something that makes me change my mind, I'm comfortable with my suspicions.

Ah, yes, my one point of bigotry I find unfounded. The mentally retarded. I even have a cousin with Downs Syndrome. But being around the gives me a profoundly creeped out feeling. I think it probably scares me. My intelligence is one of the things I find most precious to me. I may not be a genius, but I base a lot of my self worth on being intelligent. I'd rather be dead than lose it.

My opinion is this:

Racism bad. Period. No exceptions. No tolerance.

That is why I consider myself a bigot in this sense.

I have to agree that Racism is bad. No exceptions. There is never sufficient moral authority to justify its existance. That doesn't mean that I can't see the pros and cons of it, it just means the cons always outweight the pros.

.

remember: you can argue yourself blue in the face against a particular idea, and that does NOT necessarily mean you are being intollerant toward that idea.
True, but to hide my bigotry, I could pretend to be tolerant of racism by a) ignoring it or b) pretending to consider the ideas put forth in support of it.

If I want to be honest with myself however, I have to admit that I am not ever going really consider their arguments. I'll familiarise myself with them to provide structure to my arguments, but I will never, ever be able to 'put myself in their shoes'. I refuse to. Their shoes stink:)

Perhaps I'm being hard on myself...but perhaps you are being too kind to me....:)

Ah, yes, my one point of bigotry I find unfounded. The mentally retarded. I even have a cousin with Downs Syndrome. But being around the gives me a profoundly creeped out feeling. I think it probably scares me. My intelligence is one of the things I find most precious to me. I may not be a genius, but I base a lot of my self worth on being intelligent. I'd rather be dead than lose it.

Just to challenge you a little, you might spend some time with your cousin taking care of him/her. It might change your perspective. In many ways it is like dealing with and innocent child who's perspectives on the world, though simplistic at best, can be quite inspiring and have a value all their own.

I'm fine with my bigotry for now. Please note that I don't go around picking fights with muslims, or refuse to do business with them. I'm just suspicious of them. Until I see something that makes me change my mind, I'm comfortable with my suspicions.
Thanks again for your honesty, Drunk:)

This brings up a good point...now Bottle has been saying that you can be tolerant (re: not bigoted) towards beliefs you do not agree with. The above description provided by Drunk Commies of his bigotry would seem to actually be tolerant by Bottle's definition of such. However, would we say the same of a white-supremist? If that white-supremist didn't go around picking fights with non-whites, or didn't refuse to do business with them...would they be any less bigoted?

Ah, yes, my one point of bigotry I find unfounded. The mentally retarded. I even have a cousin with Downs Syndrome. But being around the gives me a profoundly creeped out feeling. I think it probably scares me. My intelligence is one of the things I find most precious to me. I may not be a genius, but I base a lot of my self worth on being intelligent. I'd rather be dead than lose it.
So is this particular case of bigotry something you would want to explore further, and work towards ridding yourself of?

I have to agree with Drunk Commies on my own bigotry...it isn't something I think I'm going to actively work toward changing.

Just to challenge you a little, you might spend some time with your cousin taking care of him/her. It might change your perspective. In many ways it is like dealing with and innocent child who's perspectives on the world, though simplistic at best, can be quite inspiring and have a value all their own.

I'm way too chicken. It freaks me out. But I'm not very good with small children either. When I was in the whacky ward we had a mentally retarded boy there that I was fairly friendly with, but sometimes I just had to get away from him. I felt protective, but at the same time he annoyed me. He did draw me some nice pictures, but he just needed too much attention. Not that the whacky ward is the best place to make pals. :rolleyes:

I'm way too chicken. It freaks me out. But I'm not very good with small children either. When I was in the whacky ward we had a mentally retarded boy there that I was fairly friendly with, but sometimes I just had to get away from him. I felt protective, but at the same time he annoyed me. He did draw me some nice pictures, but he just needed too much attention. Not that the whacky ward is the best place to make pals. :rolleyes:
I always wanted to work in one. I think I'd be entertained by some of the paranoid schitzophrenic patients' conspiracy theories.

I admit that I'm very prejudiced against people who are less intelligent than me, and those with religious fundamentalist leanings.

I don't apologize for my bigotry on these issues.

I'm way too chicken. It freaks me out. But I'm not very good with small children either. When I was in the whacky ward we had a mentally retarded boy there that I was fairly friendly with, but sometimes I just had to get away from him. I felt protective, but at the same time he annoyed me. He did draw me some nice pictures, but he just needed too much attention. Not that the whacky ward is the best place to make pals. :rolleyes:

First, recognizing their limitations and your preferance for avoiding certain of their charactistics does not, IMO, make you bigoted. Mentally ill and developmentally disabled people do have limitations, just like the rest of us. It doesn't make one bigoted to recognize that. When you chose to treat someone with or hold a general disrespect for someone, then perhaps you could claim to be bigoted. Not wanting to be slobbered on by a drooling DD person does not constitute a prejudice or bigotry toward them. When you consider their rights to life and existance inferior to your own, then you can claim to be bigoted.

I always wanted to work in one. I think I'd be entertained by some of the paranoid schitzophrenic patients' conspiracy theories.

It can be interesting, but most don't have dramatic delusional systems. Those are pretty rare in my experience.

I always wanted to work in one. I think I'd be entertained by some of the paranoid schitzophrenic patients' conspiracy theories.
We had one guy that really shocked me. When I first got in he was drugged to the gills with haldol. After a few days they eased up on the drugs. At first he seemed perfectly reasonable. He was soft spoken and articulate. But then he started talking about this conspiracy that involved his wife, the local cops and his dentist. It was really strange considering how rational he seemed at first.

When you consider their rights to life and existance inferior to your own, then you can claim to be bigoted.
Now that is interesting...I think that is a good extension of the original definition of bigotry. I'm not sure I believe that the right of racists and homophobes to life and existance is inferior to my own...

Nor do I particularly believe their opinions are inferior to mine...

Or do I? I'm not quite sure. I think I'm right, and they are wrong, and I don't think I could open myself up to the possibility that perhaps I could be wrong on this count....*has to think about it more*

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster online Main Entry: big·ot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices

We are not doubt very familiar with the assorted racists and bigots on this forum (no need to name them), and no doubt well acquainted with the more common targets of bigotry (race, immigration, sexuality, gender and so on).

However, how well acquainted are you with your own particular bigotry? What topics do you approach with a less than open mind? Are you able to recognise that you are biased negatively towards certain issues? Let's clean out those dark corners of the human soul and be honest...

What are the biases you can not push aside...the biases that make you a bigot...?
I have an extremely strong visceral reaction against those who ( in my opinion ) defame my Country, her ideals, her people, or her military personnel, particularly when ( again in my opinion ) they have no rational reasons for doing so.

I am ashamed to say that I am prejudiced against mentally handicapped people. I struggle not to show it in my words or actions (successfully, I might add, since back when I still worked in health care, I occasionally had mentally disabled clients and I wanted to give them the same care, respect, and attention I gave to all my clients) but it is a huge effort.

I know it's bad, but I can't help it. I am horrorified of becoming mentally disabled myself (through injury, disease, or whatever). I just feel overwhelming pity and disgust whenever I have to interact with someone who is mentally disabled. I know it's not their fault, that they don't deserve the emotions I feel, but I can't seem to shake it. All I can do is never let anyone see or hear me behave inappropriately, despite my horrible thoughts and emotions.

It can be interesting, but most don't have dramatic delusional systems. Those are pretty rare in my experience.

You should've met my friend from the CIA. He shot down a Soviet fighter over Louisiana and ordered tha naval bombardment of Cuba. He tried to assasinate a girl I didn't like, but the orderlies pulled him off her. :D

I have an extremely strong visceral reaction against those who ( in my opinion ) defame my Country, her ideals, her people, or her military personnel, particularly when ( again in my opinion ) they have no rational reasons for doing so.

So, do you feel that there is no justification or validity in any such defamation? Do you consider yourself to be bigoted in this sense, or just overly protective? Could you allow yourself to consider their view points, or would you immediately shut them down, no thought included?

What country are you from by the way? I find it interesting that you use the feminine...though many countries do (in Spanish, nations are referred to as la patria, which is feminine), we often fall back on the asexual 'it'.

Now that is interesting...I think that is a good extension of the original definition of bigotry. I'm not sure I believe that the right of racists and homophobes to life and existance is inferior to my own...

Nor do I particularly believe their opinions are inferior to mine...

Or do I? I'm not quite sure. I think I'm right, and they are wrong, and I don't think I could open myself up to the possibility that perhaps I could be wrong on this count....*has to think about it more*

I'd say you can provide significant rationale to defend the idea that their opinions about race are inferior to your own. You could not adequately defend the ideat that their right to life is inferior to your own, until or unless they have acted to harm another individual.

You should've met my friend from the CIA. He shot down a Soviet fighter over Louisiana and ordered tha naval bombardment of Cuba. He tried to assasinate a girl I didn't like, but the orderlies pulled him off her. :D

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but in working with over 200 people that have a diagnosis of 295.3 Paranoid Schizophrenia only 3 or 4 have had really pronounced delusional systems.

I am ashamed to say that I am prejudiced against mentally handicapped people. I struggle not to show it in my words or actions (successfully, I might add, since back when I still worked in health care, I occasionally had mentally disabled clients and I wanted to give them the same care, respect, and attention I gave to all my clients) but it is a huge effort.

I know it's bad, but I can't help it. I am horrorified of becoming mentally disabled myself (through injury, disease, or whatever). I just feel overwhelming pity and disgust whenever I have to interact with someone who is mentally disabled. I know it's not their fault, that they don't deserve the emotions I feel, but I can't seem to shake it. All I can do is never let anyone see or hear me behave inappropriately, despite my horrible thoughts and emotions.
I think there are many people who feel the way you do, but are unable to admit to it. (I am not one...but then again, I've had a lot of positivie interactions with the mentally handicapped and the mentally ill)

Me too, Equus. Though since I'm nuts, I have to tolerate other nuts somewhat. But it just really chapped my hide when they'd put the very low functioning clients with me. I'm nuts, but I'm not that nuts. The depressives and drug or alchohol rehabing folks would all hang together and shut out the ones that were totally out of touch. Isn't it funny (in a sad way) that even in the wacky ward there are stratifications of how nuts you are. Just goes to show it's human nature to have an us vs. them set up.

So,

1. do you feel that there is no justification or validity in any such defamation?

2. Do you consider yourself to be bigoted in this sense, or just overly protective?

3. Could you allow yourself to consider their view points, or would you immediately shut them down, no thought included?

4. What country are you from by the way? I find it interesting that you use the feminine...though many countries do (in Spanish, nations are referred to as la patria, which is feminine), we often fall back on the asexual 'it'.
1. That would depend on whether they were relatively rational in their approach, using statistics, facts, and relatively unbiased sources. If they did, I would probably debate them, and might even allow that they had a valid point. ;) If not, I would most likely try to contain myself and simply ignore them.

2. "Bigoted" might be a bit too strong, but as best I can tell, my feelings on this subject come as close to "bigotry" as anything in my world view.

3. ( See number 1, above. ) In addition, even if their posts are well-reasoned, all they ever have to say about the US are negative things, I may still read their posts but never reply.

4. You can't tell by reading my sig? I'm a retired/disabled American veteran. I've used the feminine when referring to America ever since I can remember. :)

Main Entry: big•ot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
:considering the right to life and existence of others inferior to your own

Should we expand the original definition to fit Personal Responsibilit's idea of bigotry?

Again, I would have to ask...could a racist who doesn't go out of their way to beat up others of different ethnic backgrounds, or who does not actively discriminate against them, NOT be a bigot?

4. You can't tell by reading my sig? I'm a retired/disabled American veteran. I've used the feminine when referring to America ever since I can remember. :)
I didn't look hard enough I guess...though it is glarinly obvious to me now!
Thanks!

If I may, I have preset ideas about the rich. I more often than not assume that they were born into wealth, and really don't deserve it.

Commie! ;)

If anyone who is actually racist or homophobic happens to read this thread, I have a question for you:

Do YOU consider yourself to be a bigot, based on the definition (s) given?

Should we expand the original definition to fit Personal Responsibilit's idea of bigotry?

Again, I would have to ask...could a racist who doesn't go out of their way to beat up others of different ethnic backgrounds, or who does not actively discriminate against them, NOT be a bigot?
( I responded to your post above )

I have no patience or respect for racists or homophobes.

I'm even thinking of changing the lyric in the re-recorded version of "Gimme Back My Bullets (this one by Lynyrd Skynyrd with Kid Rock) to "tell all them homophobes, stay the f*ck out of my way," from the usual "pencil pushers" when I sing it at karaoke.

I didn't look hard enough I guess...though it is glaringly obvious to me now!
Thanks!
Umm ... "glaringly?" :rolleyes:

I suppose since many of us are doing it anyway, that we should expand this topic to not only include our bigotry, but our biases as well...hoping of course that we can at least set our biases aside when we need to, if not our bigotry:)

My biases include (but are not limited to):

The belief that humans are essentially good and selfless, but once we move past the individual, corruption is inevitable.

The belief that consumerism is unhealthy for mind, body and spirit.

The belief that Western society has much to answer for...and is intolerant of other models.

I think there are many people who feel the way you do, but are unable to admit to it. (I am not one...but then again, I've had a lot of positivie interactions with the mentally handicapped and the mentally ill)

Ah - I differentiate between mentally handicapped and mental illness. I have had many friends who were classified as schizophrenic or bipolar. I invariably care about them very much and work myself into the ground trying to help them out. Especially when I was in high school and had a friend who was suicidal after being diagnosed with bipolar disorder. The difference for me is that mental illness does not scare me, in fact, I enjoy the company of people who think outside the mainstream (although people who are so delusional they have no grasp of reality are much less fun). For me, my feeling of horror is limited to those people who are mentally disabled, what we used to call 'retarded'. This may include some people with Down's, although many of them are relatively high functioning, as are many people with FAS.

And, for some reason, I'm okay with people with learning disabilities, in fact, I tutor some to help them find ways of learning that work for them. I guess it's because they are clearly intelligent people who just learn differently.

Umm ... "glaringly?" :rolleyes:
hahahhaa...I knew that was going to get me in trouble....

Glaringly not from your comments, but glaringly in the form of your location which so clearly states USA.

Duh on me!

Edit: You're right...you ARE a bit touchy, aren't you? :p

I am a bigot, and I have absolutely no problems with it.

( I responded to your post above )
Forgive me if I seem dense...but where did you respond to that particular post? It referred to changing the definition of bigotry, and also included a question about racism...

I am a bigot, and I have absolutely no problems with it.
About everything in general, or something in particular?

Are you bigoted against amputees, for instance? (I suspect not....)

hahahhaa...I knew that was going to get me in trouble....

Glaringly not from your comments, but glaringly in the form of your location which so clearly states USA.

Duh on me!

Edit: You're right...you ARE a bit touchy, aren't you? :p
LOL! Backattcha: :p :p :p

Ah - I differentiate between mentally handicapped and mental illness.
So do I...that's why I mentioned them separately:)

However, many people lump mental handicaps in with mental illness, so I wanted to be crystal clear.

You seem to have had good experiences or exposure with people suffering from mental illnesses...perhaps your difficulties with the mentally handicapped stem more from lack of contact than any inherent bigotry?

Forgive me if I seem dense...but where did you respond to that particular post? It referred to changing the definition of bigotry, and also included a question about racism...
I was referring to your earlier post. The one directed to me. Sorry for the confusion. :)

Well, let's see.

I am bigoted (one "t" by the way people) against those who can't be bothered to learn how to spell correctly, or take the time to review their posts and correct errors, since I believe this is absolutely necessary to properly represent your views in a mature manner. It's just like dressing up for an interview.

I am bigoted against those who refuse to accept statistiscal facts about specific races, and if you point to these facts accuse you of being racist. Now, personal opinions may make you racist, but not facts.

I am bigoted against evolutionists who seem to have forgotten that all they believe in is a theory that can't be proven. This is mainly as a result of their pig-headed determination to attack my christian beliefs as being "unprovable," when ironically I could say the same of theirs.

I am bigoted against those who consider anyone who disapproves of homosexuality, even if they don't bother voicing their opinion, and even if they don't treat homosexuals differently as a result of their sexuality, as being a homophobe.

I am bigoted against idiots and assholes, both of which lead to my bigotry in most of the above listed categories.

About everything in general, or something in particular?

Are you bigoted against amputees, for instance? (I suspect not....)

Just against most people. My driver is black, yet I consider him my brother who was kept in the oven too long. He saved my ass a few times. Otherwise I dislike gays, jews, religious in general, blacks, many whites, latinos, asians, indians, etc.

All in all I'd say I'm an equal opportunity bigot. I hate everyone equally.

PS-amputees, well I could give or take them.

LOL! Backattcha: :p :p :p
Depends on how much coffee I've had in a particular day....or how much extra crappiness has affected my ability to be reasonable!

*smooch*

What really defines a bigot?

Let's say someone doesn't like black people, however, he doesn't wish them any bad. If fact, he wishes them the best with their lives, just wants nothing to do with them. If he'd met a black person, he'd be nice to him or her, wouldn't use any racial slurs, and treat them with respect every human being deserves. Is he really a bigot?

So do I...that's why I mentioned them separately:)

However, many people lump mental handicaps in with mental illness, so I wanted to be crystal clear.

You seem to have had good experiences or exposure with people suffering from mental illnesses...perhaps your difficulties with the mentally handicapped stem more from lack of contact than any inherent bigotry?

Nope. I've worked in health care and have had mentally disabled clients (see my first post), and even did one of my practicums in a ward full of severely mentally (and physically) disabled people. I've had plenty of contact opportunities. Regrettably, all exposure has done is perfect my ability to not in any way express the way I feel when I'm around them.

What really defines a bigot?

Let's say someone doesn't like black people, however, he doesn't wish them any bad. If fact, he wishes them the best with their lives, just wants nothing to do with them. If he'd met a black person, he'd be nice to him or her, would use any racial slurs, and treat them with respect every human being deserves. Is he really a bigot?

Yup. The same way I'm a bigot towards mentally disabled people. I never display or express the disgust and pity I feel to them, and never talk about it (except for discussions of bigotry like this one). I treat them kindly and respectfully, but that does not stop the horrible thoughts and feelings inside. As I have said, I am ashamed of how I feel, but unable to find a way to change it.

Most religions, dont get me wrong I dont hate religious people, I just refuse to listen to their arguments as to why I should follow their faith.
Homophobes and racists (except I do hate them).

And for these choices I feel no shame.

Well, let's see.

1. I am bigoted (one "t" by the way people) against those who can't be bothered to learn how to spell correctly, or take the time to review their posts and correct errors, since I believe this is absolutely necessary to properly represent your views in a mature manner. It's just like dressing up for an interview.

2. I am bigoted against those who refuse to accept statistiscal facts about specific races, and if you point to these facts accuse you of being racist. Now, personal opinions may make you racist, but not facts.


Thank you for being *mostly* reasonable in your post. Let me delve further into your points. I've added numbers so I can refer back to them with ease.

1. I can get nitpicky with spelling too...but I tend to get more upset at really terrible spelling, rather than small mistakes. Is spelling something that you really want to hang an issue on? Do you consider small spelling mistakes (or grammatical errors) an immovable impediment to a mature conversation? If so, perhaps you should correct the following spelling errors in your own post: statistiscal, christian (needs a capital if you are using it as a proper noun), unprovable (incorrect prefix, this is a common mistake, and should be changed to improvable). :)

2. Statistics are a touchy subject, because they can be manipulated to say pretty much anything you want. Facts are difficult to prove as utterly true...for example, you could say that blacks commit more crime than whites, and have a lot of studies available to back you up, but can you state that "It is a fact that blacks are more prone to criminality than whites"? Is that a fact? Or an extension of statistics? As well, statistics do not take into account inherent biases in the system...one example of this would be the differing sentences meted out to those who possess equal amounts of cocaine compared to those who are found in possession of crack cocaine. Statistically, which race is more likely to consume cocaine versus crack cocaine? Statistics have limited usefulness...you can pretty much find statistics out there to back up any opinion you hold (for example, I believe that flavoured coffee is more healthful than unflavoured coffee. I could cite statistics proving that the therapeutically value of the aroma boosts the immune system. Would it be a fact? Or only slightly provable?)

I'll get to the other points in a moment...

3. I am bigoted against evolutionists who seem to have forgotten that all they believe in is a theory that can't be proven. This is mainly as a result of their pig-headed determination to attack my christian beliefs as being "unprovable," when ironically I could say the same of theirs.

4. I am bigoted against those who consider anyone who disapproves of homosexuality, even if they don't bother voicing their opinion, and even if they don't treat homosexuals differently as a result of their sexuality, as being a homophobe.

5. I am bigoted against idiots and assholes, both of which lead to my bigotry in most of the above listed categories.

3. True, much of evolutionary theory is as yet completely proven. However, there are many statistics and 'facts' to back up this particular theory, including tests on microorganisms that follow the model of evolution. Do you still want to get angry at people who don't accept your statistics on race, if you are refusing to accept the statistics that support evolution? Or will you concede that statistics are often flawed by the process of gathering them?

4. What would you prefer someone to be called who does not approve of homosexuality, if not a homophobe? Our beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. For example, if you, a person who passively disapproves of homosexuality, raises your children to also dislike homosexuality, then you have just stepped from passive to active.

Now, to be fair, I'll use another analogy on myself. If I disapprove of racists, and yet do nothing to voice my disapproval (which isn't true, because I do), and I raise my children to dislike racists, I have passed on my beliefs actively. Perhaps I too have passed on my bigotry.

5. I am not going to take this last comment seriously, since it is a very sweeping generalisation, and I don't think you actually meant for it to be analysed.

What really defines a bigot?

Let's say someone doesn't like black people, however, he doesn't wish them any bad. If fact, he wishes them the best with their lives, just wants nothing to do with them. If he'd met a black person, he'd be nice to him or her, wouldn't use any racial slurs, and treat them with respect every human being deserves. Is he really a bigot?
My question exactly. Then we need to go back to Personal Responsibilit's add-on to the definition of bigotry. Does this person feel that their right to life and existence is superior to the rights of same of black people?

Also, perhaps we should examine what leads to this dislike. Why would someone judge another person as someone to dislike, based on their race?

Nope. I've worked in health care and have had mentally disabled clients (see my first post), and even did one of my practicums in a ward full of severely mentally (and physically) disabled people. I've had plenty of contact opportunities. Regrettably, all exposure has done is perfect my ability to not in any way express the way I feel when I'm around them.
Hmmm...would you define this contact as negative or positive?

(Trying to understand the basis of your aversion...which is easier than examining one's own prejudices:))

I am a bigot, and I have absolutely no problems with it.
We know Johnny, we know.

We know Johnny, we know.
Well I for one wasn't sure.... :D

What would you prefer someone to be called who does not approve of homosexuality, if not a homophobe?
Irrespective of whether or not it's a good thing, Unless they are afraid of homosexuality one could not call them a homophobe. You can dislike/disapprove of something without being afraid of it. For instance, I dislike ferrets. I'm not afraid of them, I just think they're stinky and mean. This does not mean I have an irrational fear of them.

Irrespective of whether or not it's a good thing, Unless they are afraid of homosexuality one could not call them a homophobe. You can dislike/disapprove of something without being afraid of it. For instance, I dislike ferrets. I'm not afraid of them, I just think they're stinky and mean. This does not mean I have an irrational fear of them.
Homophobia is not simply confined to the 'fear of homosexuals'.

Main Entry: ho•mo•pho•bia

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

This is often how people try to escape being called homophobic, "Hell no, I'm not afraid of faggots! I just don't like them!"

The irrational part is important though...could you have 'rational' discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals and not be homophobic? Who would define your aversion as rational or not?

And isn't fear at the root of most of our biases?

Racists fear the destruction of their own race by other races (simplistic version of a complex belief system).

Homophobes fear a destruction of traditional heterosexual values (again, simplistic), whatever they envision those values to be.

Anti-racists (like myself) fear violence or discrimination from racists.

Dislike of the mentally handicapped, at least by those who have mentioned it here so far, seems to be based on a fear of somehow becoming like them...is that fairly correct?

Irrespective of whether or not it's a good thing, Unless they are afraid of homosexuality one could not call them a homophobe. You can dislike/disapprove of something without being afraid of it. For instance, I dislike ferrets. I'm not afraid of them, I just think they're stinky and mean. This does not mean I have an irrational fear of them.

There is a difference between toleration and acceptance. I tolerate different people, but I don't have to accept them. Is someone a homophobe who is tolerant, rather then accepting?

Hmmm...would you define this contact as negative or positive?

(Trying to understand the basis of your aversion...which is easier than examining one's own prejudices:))

In terms of how I felt about the contact, generally negative, even though an onlooker might have considered the situation to be positive. Also, while I was disgusted by the people in my practicum, I was also angry about how poorly they were treated (talk about a mental schism!). For example, herding them into a TV room to watch TV for hours instead of having social interaction, or taping their pants closed or their hands to their sides (with metres of duct tape) so that they couldn't masterbate when they were supposed to be napping. Or leaving them to sit alone on the toilet for an hour. All things designed to make things easier for the employees than the people we were supposed to be helping. Fortunately, this large institution was in the process of being closed down, as they found community care homes to accept the clients. These weren't like old folks homes, they are homes with 4-6 clients, so they get a lot more personal attention.

Anyway, I digress. I've had a lot of contact with people with mental disabilities, some positive, some negative, some neutral. But I've had my aversion ever since I can remember first meeting someone with an obvious mental disability. My mom is a nurse, and worked in a senior's home, and she sometimes had us go in to spend time with the residents. I was shaken to the bone when I first met a senior with Alzheimers, and that disgust, loathing, and pity has stayed with me ever since.

Dislike of the mentally handicapped, at least by those who have mentioned it here so far, seems to be based on a fear of somehow becoming like them...is that fairly correct?

Well, that's how I've rationalized it to myself. I don't honestly know whether that's the root cause or not.

There is a difference between toleration and acceptance. I tolerate different people, but I don't have to accept them. Is someone a homophobe who is tolerant, rather then accepting?
I'm uncertain, truly I am. I guess I have to go back to why don't you 'accept' them? What keeps you from crossing the line from tolerance into acceptance?

This is something I pay most attention too in a debate. I have a pretty clear opinion if I post something when discussing, but I lack the intelligence to be stubern enough to prove their points wrong every time. Lucky for me the liberals are good at such things, altough I think a lot of conservatives are very friendly and often are more logical then lefties (I believe lefties are more BIGOT then righties).

Nice thread btw. :)

Homophobia is not simply confined to the 'fear of homosexuals'.

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster online
Main Entry: ho•mo•pho•bia

Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

This is often how people try to escape being called homophobic, "Hell no, I'm not afraid of faggots! I just don't like them!"

The irrational part is important though...could you have 'rational' discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals and not be homophobic? Who would define your aversion as rational or not?
This is the position that I and some other Christians find ourselves. We believe that God has told us to love everybody, without condition; this includes loving homosexual people, without condition. We also believe that, among many other things, homosexual practice is wrong.

Are we therefore homophobic? It depends on whether you believe our beliefs about homosexuality are rational. It also depends on how we show love to homosexual people. Many Christians do not show love to homosexual people in any way that the homosexual people themselves recognise as love.

This is the position that I and some other Christians find ourselves. We believe that God has told us to love everybody, without condition; this includes loving homosexual people, without condition. We also believe that, among many other things, homosexual practice is wrong.

Are we therefore homophobic? It depends on whether you believe our beliefs about homosexuality are rational. It also depends on how we show love to homosexual people. Many Christians do not show love to homosexual people in any way that the homosexual people themselves recognise as love.
I suppose if you follow the Christian maxim, "love the sinner, not the sin", you could conceivably be ok. However...if you really believe it is a sin, can you NOT act to change the behaviour you think is sinful? I understand the paradox, and am glad I'm not caught up in it! I for one, do not believe it is a sin, so there is no question of action or inaction for me...

i'd agree with all of that. Being the son of a gay man, and the boyfriend of a black woman, i'm rather sensitive to both.
yay for alternative lifestyle

I think I know what inspired this thread.

Kahta. and kahta's not just bigoted, he's a blatant racist.

I suppose if you follow the Christian maxim, "love the sinner, not the sin", you could conceivably be ok. However...if you really believe it is a sin, can you NOT act to change the behaviour you think is sinful? I understand the paradox, and am glad I'm not caught up in it! I for one, do not believe it is a sin, so there is no question of action or inaction for me...
I happen to believe that maxim is a good rule to follow. Actually following it is very, very difficult, which is why I need Jesus' help a lot.

As for changing the behaviour, I don't think I CAN change anyone's behaviour. I can't control the decisions of any person other than myself (and sometimes, I don't feel like I can do that!), so what am I to do?

I must express to everybody, by my words, my actions, even my body language, that I love them, and if they notice this and ask why I do and say such things, I must tell them that it is because Jesus loves me that I love them.

We are not doubt very familiar with the assorted racists and bigots on this forum (no need to name them), and no doubt well acquainted with the more common targets of bigotry (race, immigration, sexuality, gender and so on).

However, how well acquainted are you with your own particular bigotry? What topics do you approach with a less than open mind? Are you able to recognise that you are biased negatively towards certain issues? Let's clean out those dark corners of the human soul and be honest...

What are the biases you can not push aside...the biases that make you a bigot...?
That is an issue that I am constantly watching, because I aspire to become a freethinker and to be autonomous. As I watch my behavior and thought patterns, I find myself constantly challenging myself on what I thought were rationalized positions, only to find out that they were prejudiced opinions. It gets easier the more you do it, and it is VERY difficult and painful at first. The more I do this, the less dogma I find myself with and the more willing I find myself willing to hear out almost anything.

I for one, admit to being bigoted towards racists and homophobes. I may listen to their arguments, but I know there is no chance I will actually push my prejudices aside to accept anything they have to say about race or sexuality. Therefore, any conversation I have with them is not intended to discuss their beliefs, but rather to change them.

Wow...honesty is kind of icky...

I'm with you on that one. lol @ the ickyness of honesty

I'm prejudiced against:
homophobes
politicians
creationists
republicans
the idea of faith
anyone who I think would be happy to watch me burn in hell.
white supremicists
people born into wealth
and also, involuntarily: guys who get attention from women in exchange for being attractive.
the last one because seeing them makes me feel like a starving man on the street watching someone else be given free steak dinners.

but anyway, while I'm prejudiced against them, I still tend to lend an ear, but I would never much trust someone who fits in any of these criteria.

Kahta. and kahta's not just bigoted, he's a blatant racist.
I said we didn't need to name names...but he really isn't the worst of them on NS...

In any case, isn't a racist a really open bigot?

I have a fundamental problem with feminists, American black militants and anti-Americans. I can see how I could - and maybe should? - be seen as being bigoted for this; I'm a white middle-class American male, after all. I try to listen and keep an open mind, though.