NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, another religious thread. This one is directed at all three of the major monotheistic religions. Despite the fact that the intentions of most Christians, Jews and Muslims are not hostile, the fact is that for centuries, and still in Israel today, these religions seem to be a major cause of war. I am not asking for people to prove to me that these religions do not teach this, I know they don't. I am just saying, isn't it obvious that religion will always present an excuse for people to wage war.
It's the same consequence as nationalism. When you give people an excuse to feel superior to each other, war will inevitably follow. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are so close to one another anyway, more so than any of the other religions, they always seem to be fighting one another. Is it not perhaps an underlying fault that this happens?

Let everyone believe whatever they want to believe as long as they don't impose any harm on society or other individuals.

And kill the freakin religious threads im sick of them. 1300+ !"&%)% posts on "Come get me pseudo-christians!" !?? QUIT IT ALREADY! ARGGH!!

Let everyone believe whatever they want to believe as long as they don't impose any harm on society or other individuals.

But war does harm other individuals

It isn't really a matter of religions causing conflict. Conflict will be there with or without religion. The purpose of religion is supposed to be to prevent conflict, but the problem is that you always end up with hypocrites like Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Pat Robertson running them. They're just plain old evil people and the fact that they happen to have been brought (or grew up into) evangelical Christian societies just means that that's the tool they use to be evil.

What is so distinctive about monotheism is that it helps unify large empires so that they can direct lots of people to hate other people that they'd never have met. There'd have been conflict otherwise, but not coordinated conflict. Most large empires would have collapsed without a unifying ideology of some sort, and in the West it's usually monotheism.

Up until the 50's we've used a belief in Liberty and Democracy almost exclusivly, but for some reason we've regressed into using religion.

Which is why in places like West Virginia and Kentucky they don't believe in evolution. In their populations it's never happened.

But war does harm other individuals

You are saying that religion is the cause of wars? Even if you believe that (which I certainly don't, at least not to the extent you do), then that does not invalidate religion. Should we eschew sex because it spreads awful diseases?

that was my point. Im fine with whatever anyone believes as long as they dont a) harm other individuals or b) harm society.

I just don't want to argue about it cause im sick of all the religious threads.

No, religious intolerance always has and always will cause conflict.

Religion is used as some kind of excuse in wars, true, but i don't believe it to be the actual cause.

You are saying that religion is the cause of wars? Even if you believe that (which I certainly don't, at least not to the extent you do), then that does not invalidate religion. Should we eschew sex because it spreads awful diseases?

why don't you believe that religion is the cause of wars? not ALL wars certainly, but a frighteningly large amount.....think about how much of the political system of a country is based on the original religion of that country.....and how that most wars are caused by these differences in those political systems...directly or indirectly, religion does cause war.

and no, it doesn't invalidate religion, but it's a fault nonetheless..or rather a fault of its followers (I'm aware, of course, that those certain people who cause wars aren't representative of everybody who believes that religion)

I can expand upon this.

As long as there is free will, there will be conflict, as 7.5 billion will NEVER be able to get along with eachother, irrelevant of any other issue.

It isn't really a matter of religions causing conflict. Conflict will be there with or without religion. The purpose of religion is supposed to be to prevent conflict, but the problem is that you always end up with hypocrites like Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Pat Robertson running them. They're just plain old evil people and the fact that they happen to have been brought (or grew up into) evangelical Christian societies just means that that's the tool they use to be evil.


But wouldn't you agree that religion makes a lot of people feel superior to those who don't believe in their religion, so it contributes to the hatred.

I believe you mean "Organized Religion", that being religion with organ music...

But wouldn't you agree that religion makes a lot of people feel superior to those who don't believe in their religion, so it contributes to the hatred.


yes, for example, the Jewish belief of god's chosen race

I believe you mean "Organized Religion", that being religion with organ music...

Your right I do mean organised religion, although not just with organs. I don't know what Jews and Muslims play but my attack included them.

Your right I do mean organised religion, although not just with organs. I don't know what Jews and Muslims play but my attack included them.
I think you missed the joke.

why don't you believe that religion is the cause of wars? not ALL wars certainly, but a frighteningly large amount.....think about how much of the political system of a country is based on the original religion of that country.....and how that most wars are caused by these differences in those political systems...directly or indirectly, religion does cause war.

and no, it doesn't invalidate religion, but it's a fault nonetheless..or rather a fault of its followers (I'm aware, of course, that those certain people who cause wars aren't representative of everybody who believes that religion)

*sigh* The vast majority wars that were ostensibly about religion were actually motivated by political or economic gain.

*sigh* The vast majority wars that were ostensibly about religion were actually motivated by political or economic gain.

okay fair point....example?

I think you missed the joke.

My post wasn't meant to be completely serious either.

My post wasn't meant to be completely serious either.
Oops, seems like I missed the humour.
Sorry about that.

Maybe it is in human nature to go to war, if religion didn't exist than people would come up with another excuse, in order to punish others for their own insecurities. Therefore maybe it is a shame to stop practicing something that can do a lot of good.

Oops, seems like I missed the humour.
Sorry about that.

Arguing about religion gets me worked up and it distorts my sense of humour into a state where it is easy to miss.

Maybe it is in human nature to go to war, if religion didn't exist than people would come up with another excuse, in order to punish others for their own insecurities. Therefore maybe it is a shame to stop practicing something that can do a lot of good.

yes, it's instinctive to fight, it's just a shame of the methods evolution has conjured up to do so

Well, you could read the so much into the motivations for why people act as a group. Religion in many occasions has indeed been the motivation for certain acts of brutality.

By the same idea however, there have been plenty of atheistically oriented movements that also have led to rather bloody incidents of persecution or warfare. The more brutal periods in the histories of the USSR and People's Republic of China are prime examples.

Any organised movement - religious or not - of any kind can be warped and naturally has the capacity to turn violent. It's merely a matter of taking the care to find the right leadership and fostering the right ideas.

Australus, where's that quote from?

I am just saying, isn't it obvious that religion will always present an excuse for people to wage war.
It's the same consequence as nationalism. When you give people an excuse to feel superior to each other, war will inevitably follow. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are so close to one another anyway, more so than any of the other religions, they always seem to be fighting one another. Is it not perhaps an underlying fault that this happens?

I think you are inappropriately assigning social, ethnic and religious facets of military struggles solely to the role of religion.

As a former resident of Northern Ireland, I can tell you these issues are exceedingly difficult to parse - and they are parsed differently for different people.

Religion is useful because as a label it helps categorize people, but that label need not be the basis for the underlying strife.

As well, it would appear to me that your western bias is showing; I'm guessing the folks in Kashmir wouldn't agree with the general tone of your thread.

In short, it is not religious differences: it is the tendency for people to form us-and-them mentality which is often expressed in simple form as if it were religious differences.

The root cause of this problem is not seeing yourself in others. Human civilization will fail if this isn't overcome. Doing away with religion wouldn't solve the problem.

Australus, where's that quote from?

I hadn't quoted anyone, but I'm flattered that you think I had.

Haha, cool! I thought i recognized it but i must have been mistaken.

The root cause of this problem is not seeing yourself in others. Human civilization will fail if this isn't overcome. Doing away with religion wouldn't solve the problem.
It has a name... Empathy.

I think you are inappropriately assigning social, ethnic and religious facets of military struggles solely to the role of religion.

As a former resident of Northern Ireland, I can tell you these issues are exceedingly difficult to parse - and they are parsed differently for different people.

Religion is useful because as a label it helps categorize people, but that label need not be the basis for the underlying strife.

As well, it would appear to me that your western bias is showing; I'm guessing the folks in Kashmir wouldn't agree with the general tone of your thread.

In short, it is not religious differences: it is the tendency for people to form us-and-them mentality which is often expressed in simple form as if it were religious differences.

The root cause of this problem is not seeing yourself in others. Human civilization will fail if this isn't overcome. Doing away with religion wouldn't solve the problem.

As Willamena pointed out, you are referring to empathy, and Christianity (don't know enough to say whether the other 2 are) is based upon the idea that empathy is bad, as I will now explain.
Christians believe that original sin was a bad thing, that we should never have learned the difference between right and wrong. After we got original sin we were able to commit acts of good and evil, rather than all are acts being acts of neutrality like animals. So, how do you commit good and evil. Well in order to do good you have to help someone in the knowledge that they need your help and will benifit from it, and to commit evil you have to hurt someone in the knowledge that they are suffereing when you hurt them. That means it is impossible to commit good or evil without empathy, without recognising that other people have feelings as well as you. Harming a brick is not evil, nor is helping it good, so someone who does not understand that another human is different to a brick cannot commit good or evil.
QED, original sin was in fact us getting empathy, which also fits in nicely with science as empathy is believed to have been a key feature in human evolution. And yet Christianty implies that empathy is a bad thing.

That explanation was slighty longer than I intended it to be.

2 other points.
Why would people in Kashmir disagree with my thread?

Also, you said that 'In short, it is not religious differences: it is the tendency for people to form us-and-them mentality which is often expressed in simple form as if it were religious differences.'
I would say that all religions encourage us-and-them mentalities. That is why I compared it to nationalism, it encourages the idea that some people are some how superior to others.

I would say that all religions encourage us-and-them mentalities. That is why I compared it to nationalism, it encourages the idea that some people are some how superior to others.
I would qualify that as "Organized religions", that being religions that have organ music.

Yes, another religious thread. This one is directed at all three of the major monotheistic religions. Despite the fact that the intentions of most Christians, Jews and Muslims are not hostile, the fact is that for centuries, and still in Israel today, these religions seem to be a major cause of war. I am not asking for people to prove to me that these religions do not teach this, I know they don't. I am just saying, isn't it obvious that religion will always present an excuse for people to wage war.
It's the same consequence as nationalism. When you give people an excuse to feel superior to each other, war will inevitably follow. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are so close to one another anyway, more so than any of the other religions, they always seem to be fighting one another. Is it not perhaps an underlying fault that this happens?

So, we're doing this topic yet again... The short answer, religion does not cause conflict. The love of money, power, control, resources and general human stupidity cause wars. In many cases(dark ages, crusades etc), but not all (Stalin as one example), religion is manipulated and used as a means of controling the masses by those questing for the above mentioned things. Wars rarely have anything to do with actual religious beliefs.

Guess what? Know what else causes conflict: politics. Politics has killed far, far, far more people over the centuries than religion has. Stalin? Politics. Hitler? Politics. World War I and World War II? Politics. Everything from Napoleon to the Boer War? Politics.

Seriously, people, everything causes conflict. Human beings will always fight over something, and occasionally that thing is religion. But a great deal of the time, it's power, resources, and most especially politics.

Yes, another religious thread. This one is directed at all three of the major monotheistic religions. Despite the fact that the intentions of most Christians, Jews and Muslims are not hostile, the fact is that for centuries, and still in Israel today, these religions seem to be a major cause of war. I am not asking for people to prove to me that these religions do not teach this, I know they don't. I am just saying, isn't it obvious that religion will always present an excuse for people to wage war.
It's the same consequence as nationalism. When you give people an excuse to feel superior to each other, war will inevitably follow. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are so close to one another anyway, more so than any of the other religions, they always seem to be fighting one another. Is it not perhaps an underlying fault that this happens?

Christianity is more Henotheistic or should be really.
Its one God above all others.
Heavenly Father above Jesus.
Catholics have tried to seperate the truth by confusing people with Trinity. But that is not the way it is.

Its one God above all others. The father above the son and all others. Not the same.

Christianity is more Henotheistic or should be really.
Its one God above all others.
Heavenly Father above Jesus.
Catholics have tried to seperate the truth by confusing people with Trinity. But that is not the way it is.

Its one God above all others. The father above the son and all others. Not the same.
Oh? And when was the last time you had a chat with God about all this?

...

Yeah. That's what I thought.

Oh? And when was the last time you had a chat with God about all this?

...

Yeah. That's what I thought.
So you agreed with me, thanks took alot I bet for you to admit your wrong. :)

Guess what? Know what else causes conflict: politics. Politics has killed far, far, far more people over the centuries than religion has. Stalin? Politics. Hitler? Politics. World War I and World War II? Politics. Everything from Napoleon to the Boer War? Politics.

Seriously, people, everything causes conflict. Human beings will always fight over something, and occasionally that thing is religion. But a great deal of the time, it's power, resources, and most especially politics.

but religion is a part of politics............it is upon the founding religion of a country that the majority of its politics are based

Which is why in places like West Virginia and Kentucky they don't believe in evolution. In their populations it's never happened.
hahaha, rednecks!

religon :mp5:

The problem is not religion, it's religious intolerance. The kicker: one doesn't have to be religious to be guilty of religious intolerance.

But wouldn't you agree that religion makes a lot of people feel superior to those who don't believe in their religion, so it contributes to the hatred.

Yes, but something else will always serve that function.

Stalin used Russia's belief in Communism to turn people agains "decadent capitalists" we use our Constitution to criticize others as "people who hate freedom." Some of use use religion to criticize middle easterners, but such talk tends to be hush-hush because urbanites would all be turned off if they were told how alien their next door neighboors are.