NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050221/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_us

You know, if they wanted him dead, he would already be dead.

I think there are enough of his own countrymen who want him dead (not a majority, but plenty in any case).

You wouldn't have to pay any of them, either. I think it's only a matter of time before he becomes Venezuela's first astronaut.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Castro was planning to assassinate Chavez (with Chavez's compliance) just to turn the world against the U.S.

If we wanted to change the government in Venezuela, Bush would just invade.

I'm sure the invasion would take all of three days.

No, it's much easier to just strangle the place economically (Chavez is doing a good job all by himself, so we don't have to help him do it). After a while, even his own people will tire of the whole thing and hang him from a streetlamp.

bump

I ask this because every time I visit this forum, I am amazed at the simplemindedness of most of these posts.

Considering the history of US involvement in Latin America, I wouldn't be surprised at all if certain factions within the US government were trying to kill Chavez. The simplistic allegation that he would already be dead if the USA so desired it is so mind-numbingly idiotic that I am almost prepared to believe you are joking. If your assumptions were correct, then Bin Laden, Castro, and many others would also be dead. But they are not. Either the USA is not as powerful as you would hope, or the USA wants them alive, which I am hesitant to accept.

I think there are enough of his own countrymen who want him dead (not a majority, but plenty in any case).

This assumes that any Venezuelan who did not vote for him wants to kill him. Right, because all those wetbacks know is revolution or tyranny.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Castro was planning to assassinate Chavez (with Chavez's compliance) just to turn the world against the U.S.

I don't hink that either Castro or Chavez needs to do much to turn the world against the USA. It seems Bush is doing fine all by himself.

If we wanted to change the government in Venezuela, Bush would just invade.

I'm sure the invasion would take all of three days.

No, it's much easier to just strangle the place economically (Chavez is doing a good job all by himself, so we don't have to help him do it). After a while, even his own people will tire of the whole thing and hang him from a streetlamp.

Right. Just like the Bay of Pigs, when the USA liberated Cuba from those evil commies. As for economic strangleholds, Chavez is protecting local and national industries from US exploitation. That's why the USA doesn't like him. You may be correct that they will attempt to strangle the place economically, as they are doing with Cuba. The idead that the Venezuelan people who elected him will lynch him for not steering the country according to your economic ideas is ignorant. If that were true, the Cuban people would have long ago ousted Castro. Grow up.

The Russian people never ousted Stalin. Does that mean they didn't hate him?

And just so you know, if it wasn't for the U.S., Castro would never have come to power. Read all about it in The Fourth Floor, by Earl E.T. Smith.

I ask this because every time I visit this forum, I am amazed at the simplemindedness of most of these posts.

Considering the history of US involvement in Latin America, I wouldn't be surprised at all if certain factions within the US government were trying to kill Chavez. The simplistic allegation that he would already be dead if the USA so desired it is so mind-numbingly idiotic that I am almost prepared to believe you are joking. If your assumptions were correct, then Bin Laden, Castro, and many others would also be dead. But they are not. Either the USA is not as powerful as you would hope, or the USA wants them alive, which I am hesitant to accept.


I think that you may have noticed by now, that the majority of people posting here have very little regard for the actual circumstances that obtain. I have just about given up arguing in the pro/anti USA or Bush and aren't we powerful and wonderful threads like this. But thank you for your post here, it was good to see.

By the way, I am thirty in Portuguese. Tenho trinta (anos). anos being implicit most of the time.

anos
tee hee

Let's face it. It's not too hard to assasinate somebody. If the US wanted it done, he'd be dead already.

lol Colodia

great post Valenzulu

Let's face it. It's not too hard to assasinate somebody. If the US wanted it done, he'd be dead already.
Colombia was able to sneak in bounty hunters right under Venezuela's noses to capture FARC Comm. Granda.

Hell, Venezuela got batshit insane and said that the entire action could've lead to war.

Let's face it. It's not too hard to assasinate somebody. If the US wanted it done, he'd be dead already.

Yeaaaaaah, no.

How many times has the USA attempted to assassinate Castro, again?

Yeaaaaaah, no.

How many times has the USA attempted to assassinate Castro, again?

Check my post above.

Plus Chavez is a military man and pretty smart about stuff. He knew a coup was coming and was able to overcome the attempt.

Don't you think that if he knew there was an assasination attempt coming he could find ways to avoid it?

Check my post above.

None of your posts answer my question.

I suggest you address the point yourself rather than refer me to a tome by some hack I haven't yet heard of.

None of your posts answer my question.

I suggest you address the point yourself rather than refer me to a tome by some hack I haven't yet heard of.

That 'hack' was the U.S. ambassador to Cuba. His book documents the U.S.'s betrayal of Cuba and its handover to Castro. Batista was not the only alternative to Castro. The U.S. could have had a freely elected, democratic, anti-Castro leader friendly to the U.S., but they chose to let Castro come to power.

You still haven't answered the question.

By the way, I am thirty in Portuguese. Tenho trinta (anos). anos being implicit most of the time.

Obrigado.

How bout this for a conspiracy: The US and Columbia secretly send in Narcotics rebels into Venezuela to kill (Commie)Chavez. Then they wouldnt need to worry about being blamed. Although what i think is that Chavez is worried. By all rights he probably should be. There is a large US presence in Columbia fighting with the druglords. Anyone of these groups could cross into Venezuela from Columbia. There already reports of border clashes with Columbian and Venezuelan Military.
Another thing is check out the OAS website. This gives the right of OAS states to intervene in any other states business. Up to and including armed overthrow of a repressive regime. Would Chavez qualify? I would think so. All that needs to be done is a emergency meeting of the OAS and Chavez could be taken out with military force.

You still haven't answered the question.
He's saying that we never tried to, I think.

If we wanted to change the government in Venezuela, Bush would just invade.

I'm sure the invasion would take all of three days.

You do know the US tried that a year or two ago, don't you?

No, it's much easier to just strangle the place economically (Chavez is doing a good job all by himself, so we don't have to help him do it). After a while, even his own people will tire of the whole thing and hang him from a streetlamp.

Or vote him out at the next election, even. That's what democracies do, even ones that don't speak English.

If we wanted him dead, we'd have put a smart bomb down his shorts by now.

You do know the US tried that a year or two ago, don't you?
Invade Venezuela? Or is this an allusion to Iraq?


Or vote him out at the next election, even. That's what democracies do, even ones that don't speak English.
But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.

But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.

link to a source as I recall that an international election monitoring group found no problems.

Let's face it. It's not too hard to assasinate somebody. If the US wanted it done, he'd be dead already.
Just like Saddham Hussein and Fidel Castro... Oh wait...

But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.
Like the Democratic bellots that were thrown out by Republicans?

If we wanted him dead, we'd have put a smart bomb down his shorts by now.

Well apparently not, you see, when to comes to assassinating political leaders the CIA is hilariously incompetent.

Invade Venezuela? Or is this an allusion to Iraq?



But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.

Chavez won democratic elections in 1998, 2000, as well as the recall in 2004. He won each of these elections with at least 56% of the popular vote. His closest rival in the recall election got 37% of the vote. US election observers confirmed that the vote count and process were legitimate, despite the cries of foul play from Chavez' opponents. Furthermore, according to The Economist, Venezuela was using an electronic voting system in 2004, so how could so many ballots have been spoiled?

Here's some enlightening links for you. I have included CNN, some left-wing leaning, and some right-wing leaning articles for you to peruse. Even The Economist recognizes the Venezuelan people as being "Against reform, [but] in favour of democracy".

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3102178 (right leaning)
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Aug04/Engler0812.htm (left leaning)
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/07/30/venezuela.elections.02/

Like the Democratic bellots that were thrown out by Republicans?
Let's get the story straight.

First off, it wasn't ballots, it was registration sheets.

Often times the parties will set up registration booths out in public places, and people will register at these and at these places the registerees will fill out an extra form marking their party, when the party is matched with the registration sheet, and is found to be of the other party then the sheet is thrown out. Not in a government office, but at a party sorting location. NO GOVERNMENT FRAUD IS INVOLVED. And besides that, both parties do it, I know someone who does it for the dems, the only difference being, a memo related to it from the Republicans was found, so that's what really happened.

A problem that is rectifiable as the Elections board responds to a registration request in a certain number of days, and if you don't get it back, then you should just re-apply through an elections board official, who is legally bound to turn the form in, instead of a non-governmental official who is not bound by anything to turn the form in.

Let's get the story straight.

First off, it wasn't ballots, it was registration sheets.

Often times the parties will set up registration booths out in public places, and people will register at these and at these places the registerees will fill out an extra form marking their party, when the party is matched with the registration sheet, and is found to be of the other party then the sheet is thrown out. Not in a government office, but at a party sorting location. NO GOVERNMENT FRAUD IS INVOLVED. And besides that, both parties do it, I know someone who does it for the dems, the only difference being, a memo related to it from the Republicans was found, so that's what really happened.

A problem that is rectifiable as the Elections board responds to a registration request in a certain number of days, and if you don't get it back, then you should just re-apply through an elections board official, who is legally bound to turn the form in, instead of a non-governmental official who is not bound by anything to turn the form in.
What kind of defense is that?

I ask this because every time I visit this forum, I am amazed at the simplemindedness of most of these posts.

Considering the history of US involvement in Latin America, I wouldn't be surprised at all if certain factions within the US government were trying to kill Chavez. The simplistic allegation that he would already be dead if the USA so desired it is so mind-numbingly idiotic that I am almost prepared to believe you are joking. If your assumptions were correct, then Bin Laden, Castro, and many others would also be dead. But they are not. Either the USA is not as powerful as you would hope, or the USA wants them alive, which I am hesitant to accept.
We actually had about three chances to kill Bin Laden outright, but Clinton did nothing. So that's why he's not dead. At this point killing Castro would serve little purpose and we would most certainly be left cleaning up the mess. Chavez does not have near the stranglehold that Castro has and it's relatively easy to get access to him especially since he ain't surrounded by water. If the CIA really wanted to assasinate him, he'd be dead.

link to a source as I recall that an international election monitoring group found no problems.
A piece by Mortimer Zuckerman in US News and World Report. Sorry I don't have an electronic link.

What kind of defense is that?
Well, I was correcting your error in saying that Republicans were throwing out ballots.

And I was also informing you that if someone turns their registration form into a party, then they surrender the ability to do with the form what they will. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm just saying anyone who turns a registration form in to the opposite party of which they are voting for is a moron.

At this point killing Castro would serve little purpose and we would most certainly be left cleaning up the mess.

That's loser talk. ;)
:D

Just like Saddham Hussein and Fidel Castro... Oh wait...
Actually, the biggest problem with assasinating a world leader is that if you have little to no control over who their replacement might be it's pointless.

Actually, the biggest problem with assasinating a world leader is that if you have littlke to no control over who their replacement might be it's pointless.
I seemed to miss something. I'm saying the US HAS tried to assassinate people, and they arn't dead. But if they assassinate Chavez, he wouldn't be the first democratically elected leader disposed of by a shady assassination that favored the Americans

But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.
If you think you can succesfully argue thta Venzuela Is not a democracy?...

I challenge you to do it...

If you can even remotely somewhat kinda aproximately make a point that Venezuela is not a Democracy...Im going to shave my head.

But, it can be argued that Venezuela is no longer a democracy of any sort, espescially when viewing the severe problems with their recall election, and the incredibly large number of spoiled ballots that were clearly marked for his opponent.


If you think you can succesfully argue thta Venzuela Is not a democracy?...

I challenge you to do it...

If you can even remotely somewhat kinda aproximately make a point that Venezuela is not a Democracy...Im going to shave my head.

He can argue it, but he can't argue it successfully. Your hair is safe.

If you think you can succesfully argue thta Venzuela Is not a democracy?...

I challenge you to do it...

If you can even remotely somewhat kinda aproximately make a point that Venezuela is not a Democracy...Im going to shave my head.

It's not a democracy unless the policies are economically friendly towards the US.

If you think you can succesfully argue thta Venzuela Is not a democracy?...

I challenge you to do it...

If you can even remotely somewhat kinda aproximately make a point that Venezuela is not a Democracy...Im going to shave my head.
If I still had my magazine around, I would, but I would not ask you to shave your head (as hair is nice, not like nazis, nazis are mean.)

If I can find the article I'll get info from it.

So, if you would kindly ignore me, as A.) My source is somewhere else and B.) I don't feel like searching for evidence at the moment, I'm utterly worthless, I just thought I'd interject my two cents and be ignored.